23/10/2011 The Politics Show London


23/10/2011

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This week on the Politics Show: Where does this man stand on the

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euro crisis and Britain's relationship with the European

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Union? Ed Miliband joins us like.

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And back to the nineties in the Commons tomorrow with a Tory Prime

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Minister pacing a major back but were brought over Europe. Malcolm

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Rifkind and John Redwood were in the Cabinet then and take opposing

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views now, they will be here to argue the case.

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And as Libya officially declares its liberation from the Gaddafi era,

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there are growing calls for an investigation into the former

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dictator's debt. I will ask Andrew Mitchell if he believes the Libyan

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Prime Minister's account, but don't worry, we will ask him about Europe,

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due. In London, London councils are

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finding room for consultants despite budget cuts. Is it better

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having their own employees? We look at some of the problems of the Tory

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And joining me to rout the programme, the Guardian's Nick Watt

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and Sue Cameron of the Financial Times. First, the news with Max in

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the Winnie. Libya's liberation will be formally

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announced in the next few hours. The head of the National

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Transitional Council, Mustafa Abdul Jalil, will address a rally in the

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city of Benghazi. The NTC has defended Colonel Gaddafi's debt,

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which Phillip Hammond said this morning had stained the interim

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government's reputation. The day they have been waiting for

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42 years. Their day they have been fighting for eight hard months.

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Until a few days ago, many of these soldiers were battling Colonel

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Gaddafi's forces on the frontline. Today, the uniforms are freshly

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ironed as a witness what they believe is the start of a new

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chapter in Libya's history. This day will be in the memory of

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everyone, they will never forget this day. But questions remain

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about whether the fresh Start has already been tainted. This new

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amateur footage contains further evidence that the Libyan leader may

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have been shot dead after he was captured. This is an ambulance and

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a convoy believed to be carrying Colonel Gaddafi's body. Anti-

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Gaddafi fighters are congratulating the man they say shot him. This is

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the man who killed Gaddafi with his hand, using this gun, says one of

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his comrades. But still the interim Prime Minister insists Colonel

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Gaddafi died in crossfire, not at the hands of his captors. I saw the

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body myself. I can testify there were no bruises on his face or his

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body. It's some body once did -- wanted to abuse his body, that was

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the perfect chance. This is where it began eight months ago when

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protesters overran this huge military base. This is where it is

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ending with the announcement of the liberation of the country. Libyans

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are celebrating with a mixture of pride, joy, but above all, she

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relief that the ordeal is over. In neighbouring Tunisia, voting has

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begun in the country's first election since January's

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revolutions. The polls opened this morning in the first voting since

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the Arab Spring uprisings. A previously banned Islamist party is

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expected to win the biggest bloc in the nationalist government.

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David Cameron has arrived in Brussels to join talks on the you

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resent financial crisis. Mafi prose is there. -- on the eurozone

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financial crisis, Matthew Price is there.

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What they want is an end to the debt crisis. What they are focusing

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on his part of the jigsaw puzzle of a solution they are trying to put

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together, gross, Europe's economy is essentially stagnant at the

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moment and it is clear that without growth, any measures will only be

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short-term fixes. It is high stakes. He did not have a lot to say, but

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this is what he said when he arrived. The crisis in the eurozone

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is having an effect on all of our economies, Britain included. We

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need to deal with the issue so it is right to have a European Council

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and for them to discuss the issue today.

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Several sources tell me there has indeed been agreement between the

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finance ministers this weekend over how to recapitalise, how to

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strengthen Europe's banks, but on the big questions, on Greece, on

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boosting the bail-out fund, there is a long way to go and those

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discussions will continue into the coming days. We expect the big

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summit to be happening on Wednesday. New Zealand are the Rugby Union

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world champions after beating France in what was a tense tussle

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in Auckland. A try by New Zealand early in the first half proved

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decisive, with the All Blacks winning by just one point, 8-7. It

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is 24 years since they were last world champions.

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That is it, plenty more on BBC One at 6:00pm.

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Thank you. On one of the newspaper websites I

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visited this morning, there was the eurozone crisis story and above

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that the slogan, "Contagion, nothing spreads like fear".

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Actually, the Contagion bit was an advert for a new film. But the fear

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of contagion in the 17 countries which have the euro is what EU

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leaders are working on today. Here, the political class is more

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obsessed with a boat on EU membership coming tomorrow. What is

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going to happen? I think the Prime Minister will win

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the vote, because you will hear from Ed Miliband in a few moments

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that the Labour Party is supporting the government motion, and because

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David Cameron has put a three-line whip on his MPs and will probably

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find he will sneak a majority of the Conservative backbench vote.

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Does it matter? It matters in terms, perhaps, of Cameron's ability to

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manage his party. If it were to go through, I don't think it is going

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to, I don't think you will get that many Tory MPs voting for a

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referendum, but if it were to go through, all sorts of calamitous

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things could happen. However, I think it will not go through. I

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think that the appeal to Tory MPs will be, don't embarrass the

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government and for heaven's sake don't rock the markets even more.

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We will be good there because we will talk about this more later on.

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Later today Libya declares the end of Colonel Gaddafi's brutal reign,

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but controversy remains over how he met his death. Does it matter? What

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does it say about the fledgling democracy? The international

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development secretary Andrew Mitchell joins us from

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Nottinghamshire. Do you believe Prime Minister's account that he

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was caught in crossfire? It was obviously an extremely confusing

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moment and I would have preferred he faced justice either in a Libyan

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court or the International Criminal Court in the Hague. But it is

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difficult for us from the comfort of Britain to put ourselves into

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the position of the soldiers and those involved in the capture of

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Gaddafi, and the best account of those from the Libyans themselves.

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So you understand why people may have taken his life? I don't know

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what the precise circumstances were, by there were people around him who

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were still offering resistance, none of that is clear, but the

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point stands that it would have been much better if he had faced

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justice, either in the Libyan courts or the hade. And it matters,

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doesn't it, because for a fledgling democracy this is hardly an

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auspicious start? It does matter, but let's be clear what the NTC

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have been saying. They have, throughout the whole of this battle,

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been clear that there must be no retribution, they have been

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extremely good at trying to ensure that safety and conflict resolution

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and justice are prioritised. We have seen that in Tripoli and are

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seeing it throughout Libya, so I think the NTC have been clear that

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this is a new beginning and there must be no retribution against

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those who were fighting for Gaddafi in recent months. But then you look

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at the seams that unfolded with his demise and it looked rather

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different. That is true, but it is the heat of battle. The essential

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thing now is the NTC leadership saying there will not be

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retribution. There are good signs the NTC will ensure that does

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happen, and they have the strong support of the international

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community in that. What is the role of Britain now? We gave aid at the

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start of this when people were displaced, is any more aid budget

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going to oil rich Libya? We where rapid in the relief we gave to the

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poor migrant workers who were streaming across the border into

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Egypt and Tunisia, more than one million people have gone across the

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borders. Throughout this battle there has never been more than six

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or 7,000 camped on the borders each night, said the humanitarian work

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that Britain led was successful throughout a whole of the battles,

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and we have given strong support to UNICEF, who have performed

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brilliantly throughout this time. Going forward, Libya is a rich

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state, and we know very well that it has the capacity now to rebuild

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itself. There has been little destruction of infrastructure

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throughout the battles because of the care the coalition took not to

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cause collateral damage, and what they need now is some technical

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assistance and support for what is a Libyan lead UN supported

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stabilisation process. Can we move on now to what is happening in the

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House of Commons tomorrow? This vote on whether there should be a

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referendum on Britain's relationship with Europe. Has

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Downing Street got this one right? Yes, absolutely. I was a government

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whip during the Maastricht treaty debate in the House of Commons,

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which did such terrible damage to the Conservative party's

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reputations. There are two key things people in Britain want to

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see, the first is the armlock legislation the Government passed

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through the House of Commons which says no further powers can be

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transferred to Brussels without a referendum in Britain, that was a

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priority for many people, and secondly they want to see the euro

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as an crisis solved, which is why the Prime Minister is in Europe

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making sure Britain does its bit to help eurozone countries resolve the

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crisis which, as he described, is chilling the British economy as

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well as others around the world. Those are the two priorities. The

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referendum is a distraction. raise the ante of having a three-

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line whip? Why not let people express their opinions? It is the

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policy of the government that we should do the two things I have

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described, those being pursued vigorously by this government, and

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to have a referendum would be a distraction. The government is

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right to make it clear that is our view and invite that house of

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Commons to support it. A poll today says 80% want a free vote.

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truth is you ask the British public what are their priorities, Europe

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appears something like No. 15 or 16, so I think the key priorities are

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the two that I mentioned, have been the armlock on no more powers being

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removed from a sovereign government at Westminster into Brussels on one

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hand, and sold in the eurozone crisis which has the power if not

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sold to do damage to our economy and others around the world.

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talked about your role as a whip in the 90s, you ran David Davies'

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campaign. He said, do not refuse people their right to answer the

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question because you are afraid of what the answer could be. He is

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right, isn't he? The government has brought in a mechanism whereby

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these matters can be debated now in the House of Commons, that was one

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of our coalition commitments. But in my view, the right way to vote,

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what I will encourage my colleagues to do, is to vote against the

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motion for the reasons I hope I have set out. Andrew Mitchell,

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thank you for being with us. Where does Labour stand on the

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eurozone crisis and the referendum issue? Given its centrality, not

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surprising that Ed Miliband has chosen this weekend to intervene on

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the euro and David Cameron's backbench woes. Let's see what he

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has been saying. Ed Miliband is on the offensive

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over Europe, after months where he said little on the subject he has

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taken fresh Tory divisions as his due to go on the attack. He told

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his party they must reject Tamara's motion, an idea that he says is

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barking. He described David Cameron's handling of the issue as

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cack-handed. He laid into the Prime Minister for his decision to go

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ahead with a trip to Australia next week, arguing he should join

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eurozone leaders as they tend to find a solution to the crisis,

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banging on the door for more influence. And George Osborne is in

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his sights, too. He says the Chancellor is using the euro crisis

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as an excuse for the Government's mishandling of the economy and

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suggests he is glorying in the emergence of a two speed Europe.

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But questions remain over Miliband's prescription. He and the

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Shadow Chancellor have not offered many answers to the you resent's

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problems, preferring to talk about boosting growth at home. While

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plans for a VAT cut and tax-break for small firms have been taken

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seriously by business leaders, over proposals raised eyebrows,

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including a promise to penalise companies that put short-term

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advantage over the interests of the I am joined by the Labour leader.

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You have accused David Cameron of behaving in a totally cack-handed

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way over tomorrow's vote. His position is exactly the same as

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yours. It isn't. What I have done over Europe is show clearly

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leadership about where we need to be as a country, which is not

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having an out referendum now and also not indulging Euro-scepticism.

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That is the same as David Cameron. It isn't. What has David Cameron

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done over the last six years? He has appeased Euro-sceptics in his

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own party. He is facing them down. This is a person who stood on his

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own leadership campaign on getting out of a mainstream European

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People's Party and going with a fringe element. He is the person

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who at the election was saying let's renegotiate our whole

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relationship with Europe. It is no wonder his backbenchers are

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disappointed because he has been pretending he is one of them. Now

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he is facing a serious crisis in Europe and clearly it would be

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irresponsible for him to say yes, let's have an out referendum,

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because it would be bad for Britain. He has exactly the same position as

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you, three-line whip against it. is right to be opposing... Why is

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the leader of the -- false opposition... It is not false

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opposition. Why have we got the Conservative Party tearing

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themselves apart over Europe? The prime minister has not stood up to

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his party and said, look, actually, being in Europe, understanding our

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role in Europe, not dabbling with Euro-scepticism, that is a

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mainstream, important position we have to take. That is why he has

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brought the vote on himself. You have got a new Conservative Party

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who are as Eurosceptic if not more so than the previous generation.

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You have labelled some of these people as barking. I have said it

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would be barking to get out of Europe now. Let me explain.

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wonder whether you think some of your backbench colleagues are

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barking? Keith Vaz, Kate Hoey? me explain. We have boarders coming

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down across the world, we have interconnected countries, problems

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across borders. Climate change, the economy, terrorism. It would not

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only be wrong for Britain to get out of Europe. Where Mike Liggins

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the referendum? Because I think we can't afford the economic

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uncertainty. The economic uncertainty, when everybody in this

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country knows that priority is jobs and growth, the signal we would

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centre businesses and other countries in Europe and indeed

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investors in Britain that we are going to spend 18 months looking

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inwards, we would look inwards as a country, and start debating whether

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we should get out of Europe. I understand people's frustrations

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with Europe, but what I say is actually getting out or embarking

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on a debate about getting at is the wrong thing for the country. That

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is why I have taken my position. That is the same as David Cameron.

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He is opposing a referendum. Of course that is right. But what I am

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saying to the Prime Minister is you don't need to dabble with his Euro-

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scepticism, I am guaranteeing you will win the vote. What I don't

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want to see from him or William Hague is a nod and a wink, which is

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what we have seen over the last six years, to the Euro-sceptics in the

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Conservative Party. Everybody knows the Conservative Party has

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modernised over Europe. It is the fault of David Cameron. Some people

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will say the real conspiracy at the moment is the fact that the

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Conservatives and the Lib Dems and Labour are broadly on the same page

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and are almost in defiance of British public opinion. 61% want a

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referendum, 64% don't want to stay in. We are on a different page. The

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priority in Europe is jobs and growth. Let's have a reform agenda

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for Europe, like renegotiating the Common Agricultural Policy, and

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start investing Europe's money not actually in agricultural subsidies,

:19:29.:19:36.

but in investment for the future. David Cameron says that I want to

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go back to a position from 20 years ago. Let's spend our political

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capital renegotiating things like employment rights, paid holiday,

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maternity leave provisions. That is a totally different position on

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Europe. You have a circa 1990 position from David Cameron,

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dabbling with Euro-scepticism and essentially saying I agree with...

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I have a different priority. wanted to ask you about the public.

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34% believed we should leave the EU. 34% in this country, are they

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barking? No, I think that is a judgment on some of the problems in

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Europe, like in the single currency, and also a judgment on the fact

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that we all need to make a better case for Europe and for the way

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Europe can work to the benefit of us. I am coming from a position of

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saying I am pro-European, but I am also pro-reform. Europe has to

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change in the way it spends its money, on issues of waste and how

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it serves people. Let me ask this single question. Yes or no answer.

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Has Brussels got too much power? don't think it has too much power.

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No need to repatriate powers? way power is exercised fails our

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country sometimes. Let me give you an example. We have seen a high

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profile case of a train company. One of the issues is over European

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Union procurement rules and the way those decisions that individual

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countries can make to support their industries. The way power is

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exercised in Europe needs to change and the way but up it is not the

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powers themselves? It is less about the power itself, but the way it is

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used. And the accountability. have said if powers were

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repatriated, it would be an end of maternity benefits. That is the

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Government's position. The UK parliament could legislate what it

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wanted. You said in an interview yesterday it would be an end to

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those things. So the government wants to embark on a wholesale

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renegotiation of our relationship with Europe over particular rights,

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employment and social rights, and they don't want to change any of

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those things? That is the wrong priority. Might it not be the

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priority for the country... Might it not be in the interests of the

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country to be up to change those policies as and when it is in the

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economic interests of the country rather than being tied to Brussels?

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No. We have a single market, a basic benchmark of social rights

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across borders. It is a very small number, actually. It is the right

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thing to do. It is right that it is not just the case that you want a

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single market. Can you rule out prime minister Miller Band ever

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joining the euro? I don't think that will happen. I don't think it

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will happen. It depends how long I am Prime Minister for but I can't

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see it. Would you say that because of the structural problems you have

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seen recently, can't you just say I would never want Britain to be part

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of the Europe -- Euro? First of all, we made the right decision not to

:22:51.:22:55.

go into the euro in the last Labour government. The second thing I

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would say it is there are structural problems, and we are not

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going into the euro, I can't see that happening in the foreseeable

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future. But the real priority... Her you're not closing the door?

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is very, very unlikely. You said David Cameron should change his

:23:12.:23:18.

plans next week to be in Brussels on Wednesday. Why? We are not part

:23:18.:23:21.

of the eurozone. You are making the mistake that the government is

:23:21.:23:26.

making. Eurozone must sort out its problems, we must have a

:23:26.:23:31.

sustainable position for Greece. We must make sure the European banks

:23:31.:23:34.

are properly dealt with and the problems in the European banks.

:23:34.:23:39.

There is a missing element and that is growth. Growth doesn't just come

:23:39.:23:42.

from the policies we decide on at home, they come from the policies

:23:42.:23:47.

we decide on in Europe and across the world. What David Cameron

:23:47.:23:52.

should be banging on the door to say is yes, let's sort out the

:23:52.:23:56.

problems of debt, but let's sort out the problems of growth. Don't

:23:56.:24:02.

you think he's doing that? There is no sign of doing it. We have

:24:02.:24:04.

collectively austerity. Every country saying let's cut as far and

:24:04.:24:09.

as fast as we can and keep our fingers crossed we will get growth.

:24:09.:24:14.

Everybody is wrong apart from Ed Miliband and Ed Balls? No, but the

:24:15.:24:18.

government took a gamble. They gambled on the fact we would have

:24:18.:24:22.

an export-led recovery, but that requires exporting your goods,

:24:22.:24:27.

including to Europe. We don't have the growth in Europe at the moment.

:24:27.:24:31.

You just described a scenario where everybody is dealing with the

:24:31.:24:35.

deficit. You're saying everyone else is wrong, Ed Balls and Ed

:24:35.:24:42.

Miliband a right. Who agrees with you? President Obama is saying at

:24:42.:24:46.

the moment, absolutely rightly, that the world and his country

:24:46.:24:51.

needs to move forward by getting people back into work. Across the

:24:51.:24:54.

world, there are different views on this. What I say very clearly is

:24:54.:24:59.

that the government hasn't understood... I criticise them for

:24:59.:25:03.

domestic failure, but also a failure of international leadership.

:25:03.:25:07.

There are problems in the eurozone, sort out those problems, but get

:25:07.:25:11.

growth going. You talk about growth and the importance for business to

:25:11.:25:16.

start growing and developing. You pulled off an achievement at the

:25:16.:25:19.

Labour Party Conference where you managed to unite the CBI, the

:25:19.:25:23.

Federation of Small Business, the British Chambers of Commerce, Walid

:25:23.:25:29.

-- all of them against your speech. I don't to greet the whole of

:25:29.:25:31.

business was United against. The Engineering employers' Federation

:25:31.:25:40.

came out in support. British Chambers of Commerce, talk of good

:25:40.:25:44.

this is bad misses the point. Federation of Small Business, we

:25:44.:25:50.

are disappointed at the Labour leader. The different reactions for,

:25:50.:25:54.

it is true to say I said something quite important about the way the

:25:54.:25:57.

economy needed to change and the way we needed to build long-term

:25:57.:26:03.

wealth in this country. I will not apologise for saying that the

:26:03.:26:07.

lessons of 2007/08, not just the immediacy of the banking crisis,

:26:07.:26:11.

but the fact that wealth was not built on solid foundations, needs

:26:11.:26:14.

to change all up our wanton promote businesses that will create lasting

:26:14.:26:19.

well. It is the message I will keep talking about because British

:26:19.:26:23.

people know we need big change in the economy, not just for the short

:26:23.:26:28.

term, but in the way we build wealth. This week you appointed a

:26:28.:26:31.

businessman to a key position within the Labour Party. He has a

:26:31.:26:37.

history as a property tycoon and was seen as an asset stripper.

:26:37.:26:43.

is not a predator. There is a specific pace -- case people have

:26:43.:26:48.

talked about in relation to him. 3,500 people lost their pensions.

:26:48.:26:53.

The regulator said there was not a case to answer. Minerva lost money

:26:53.:27:00.

as a result of what happened. What I say is much more... Minerva would

:27:00.:27:06.

be a producer rather than a predator? We need business people.

:27:06.:27:10.

I get criticised for saying we are so reliant on the trade unions and

:27:10.:27:14.

when business people support the Labour Party, people say, as they

:27:14.:27:20.

try to pick holes. He is not a predator and he is somebody who

:27:20.:27:25.

raised huge sums of money for the NSPCC. A great example of corporate

:27:25.:27:32.

social responsibility. OK. You were saying that he wanted Cameron to be

:27:32.:27:36.

in Brussels on Wednesday and not in Australia where the Commonwealth

:27:36.:27:40.

summit is taking place. But the Commonwealth summit, they are

:27:40.:27:45.

expecting to do �6 billion worth of new business. They will have a

:27:45.:27:50.

chance to engage with India, emerging nations. 53 countries. It

:27:50.:27:56.

is a modernising agenda, trying to turn the Commonwealth into a 21st

:27:56.:27:59.

Century organisation and you just say, are pure. I definitely Stone

:27:59.:28:06.

say that. I want him to get to the Commonwealth, but when there are

:28:06.:28:10.

crucial decisions being made about jobs and growth in this country,

:28:10.:28:16.

the idea that the prime minister can be here to have internal

:28:16.:28:20.

squabbles on Monday, but can't be in Brussels on Wednesday to fight

:28:20.:28:24.

for Britain's economic interests is the wrong choice. To attend the

:28:24.:28:29.

eurozone summit, you have to pay to play. So if we join that summit, we

:28:29.:28:34.

should contribute to the European financial stability? No. On the

:28:34.:28:39.

vote tomorrow, surely the problem we have, the polls showed it

:28:39.:28:43.

support for a referendum, we have a democratic deficit which was caused

:28:43.:28:46.

by your government saying there will be a referendum on the

:28:47.:28:50.

European constitution, then when that was junked by the people of

:28:50.:28:54.

France and the Netherlands, it came back with a different name but it

:28:54.:29:02.

was basically the identical treaty. Your government said no referendum.

:29:02.:29:08.

On the first question you asked, I am very clear about the position on

:29:08.:29:13.

this. The Prime Minister is making the wrong call. You don't have to

:29:13.:29:18.

pay to play, as you say. Gordon Brown, at a very important summit

:29:18.:29:24.

in 2008/09, was there as part of the key decisions and that is what

:29:24.:29:27.

they are responsible prime minister should be doing. I will be at the

:29:27.:29:32.

table, forcing Britain's issues onto the agenda. I don't accept

:29:32.:29:37.

what you say about the constitution. In the future it is clear that if

:29:37.:29:40.

there is major constitutional change that will affect Britain,

:29:40.:29:44.

there would be a referendum and that is clear. But what I say is

:29:44.:29:48.

that I don't agree with you that the issues we face in relation to

:29:48.:29:52.

the unpopularity on Europe are to do what happened before the last

:29:52.:29:56.

election. Some issues do reflect the way Europe has been doing its

:29:56.:30:05.

On Libya, we saw Tony Blair and Gordon Brown embracing Gaddafi,

:30:06.:30:09.

David Cameron overthrowing him. Are there congratulations for David

:30:09.:30:14.

Cameron on his stance? Definitely, he took the right position and that

:30:14.:30:19.

is why I supported him. I am proud the British Armed Forces supported

:30:19.:30:22.

the Libyan people in controlling their destiny.

:30:22.:30:28.

Ed Miliband, thank you. Later, unless you are feeling in

:30:28.:30:33.

Scotland, two veterans of the Tory euro wars, Sir Malcolm Rifkind and

:30:33.:30:38.

John Redwood debate tomorrow's vote. First, the Politics Show where you

:30:38.:30:44.

are. Welcome to the London part of the

:30:44.:30:48.

Politics Show. Coming up: Why is London the most difficult place in

:30:48.:30:54.

the UK to adopt a child? First, facing big cuts to budget

:30:54.:30:56.

spending, decisions by local authorities are under the

:30:56.:31:01.

microscope, but it is not stopping many councils from forking out on

:31:01.:31:06.

consultants. Is it money well spent and is it part of a wider agenda to

:31:06.:31:10.

reduce the municipal workforce? In Conservative controlled Hammersmith

:31:10.:31:15.

and Fulham, the practice has come under fire.

:31:15.:31:19.

In town halls all across London, managers can be faced with tasks

:31:19.:31:23.

they think their staff are not up to, but how can be at hand if they

:31:24.:31:33.

are willing to spend a bit of money and call in... The consultants. The

:31:33.:31:36.

government think councils need to take a little more care when it

:31:36.:31:42.

comes to relying on the so-called Super heroes. There are some

:31:42.:31:46.

circumstances where you need outside expertise you cannot get

:31:46.:31:50.

within your mainstream workforce, technical issues, perhaps, but you

:31:50.:31:54.

have to be cautious about it. The approach we adopted in government

:31:54.:31:58.

is to cut back on the employment of consultants and other outside

:31:58.:32:02.

contractor has unless it is really bringing in an expertise you could

:32:02.:32:07.

not get in House. That should be the same across the board.

:32:07.:32:11.

Politics Show has been passed this document, an audit of the way

:32:11.:32:15.

Hammersmith and Fulham Council have used consultants. It looks at seven

:32:15.:32:20.

of the many working at the local authority and found... No evidence

:32:20.:32:24.

of any formal documented selection and recruitment process, no

:32:24.:32:29.

evidence of any formal performance monitoring, no complete list of

:32:29.:32:33.

that consulting company is being used by the council. Of seven

:32:33.:32:36.

consultants used by the council which the report examined, an

:32:36.:32:41.

agreement could only be found with one. We got a document from one

:32:41.:32:46.

local authority in London where they had done an audit, they looked

:32:46.:32:50.

at seven consultants and could only find a written agreement with one

:32:50.:32:56.

out of those seven. Your reaction to that? That does not seem right.

:32:56.:33:01.

Slackness is not forgivable in these circumstances. It has to be

:33:01.:33:05.

proper documentation, that is the point of what we are doing. The

:33:05.:33:08.

culture that the previous government allowed to flourish did

:33:08.:33:13.

not pay much attention to this. the case of Hammersmith and Fulham

:33:13.:33:17.

Times, responsible for housing in the council, the housing looked at

:33:17.:33:20.

another four consultants and uncovered an agreement signed with

:33:20.:33:24.

a dissolved company, and with another former employee who

:33:24.:33:30.

provided services at �21,000 for 25 days' work, again with no written

:33:30.:33:34.

agreement found. The opposition at the council but the overall cost at

:33:34.:33:38.

million. It did not know how many consultants they were employed in,

:33:39.:33:42.

how much they were paying them, they had no terms and conditions

:33:42.:33:47.

all objectives, and they wasted between five and �12 million a year

:33:47.:33:51.

in this manner. In one case, a written agreement between a

:33:51.:33:55.

consultancy company and Hammersmith & Fulham Homes was found, but

:33:55.:34:01.

neither party had signed it. says absolute in confidence --

:34:01.:34:04.

incompetence, doesn't it? It is what it says to the normal members

:34:04.:34:09.

of the public to see what is going on and understand Government should

:34:09.:34:13.

spend their money wisely. What this says is, for the bit we have

:34:13.:34:19.

managed to see, there is ground level -- a grand level of

:34:19.:34:21.

incompetence happening with the managing of public money in the

:34:21.:34:25.

borough. The council say since receiving the report they have

:34:25.:34:31.

acted on the recommendation. From Hammersmith and Fulham,

:34:32.:34:38.

Councillor Greggs met, cabinet member there, joins me. Welcome. --

:34:38.:34:45.

Greg Smith. Do you admit this is embarrassing, with the chaos in the

:34:45.:34:49.

procedures in how you employed consultants? We were the ones who

:34:49.:34:53.

commissioned the report to look at some of the things people have been

:34:53.:34:59.

saying in order to get the house in order in those particular areas.

:34:59.:35:03.

What I have got to say is no one is more critical than ourselves on

:35:03.:35:07.

ourselves and we always tried to be more efficient, to do things better.

:35:07.:35:12.

We are the only council that has tried to reduce the burden on the

:35:12.:35:17.

taxpayer, we reduced council tax four times in recent years, and we

:35:17.:35:23.

share a cheap executive. Because it is you that asked people to come in

:35:23.:35:27.

and look at the use of consultants, it can still be embarrassing? The

:35:28.:35:35.

findings can provide you with Miller assurance on how you manage

:35:35.:35:40.

the consultants -- male assurance. For a flagship council, bat is

:35:40.:35:46.

embarrassing, isn't it? Let's look at the history on this. When we won

:35:46.:35:50.

Hammersmith and Fulham council in 2006, we asked, how many

:35:50.:35:55.

consultants are employed by the council? Have not got a clue. We

:35:55.:35:59.

got a grip, we are the ones that implemented a programme where we

:35:59.:36:02.

froze recruitment and any department that wanted to employ

:36:02.:36:08.

anyone at all, from a cleaner to a senior member of staff, had to

:36:08.:36:11.

justify why that recruitment process should star it. Did you

:36:11.:36:14.

take your eye off the ball and failed to do the same due diligence

:36:14.:36:19.

with consultants? We commissioned this report from Deloitte, who have

:36:20.:36:23.

come back with recommendations, all of which we implement it. Were you

:36:23.:36:27.

surprised that the severity of the findings, that there were not

:36:27.:36:32.

documented records of agreements with consultants? We are turning

:36:32.:36:38.

round a council that, for decades, went a certain way. As I have said,

:36:38.:36:41.

there was no clue how many consultants there were in the

:36:41.:36:48.

council. I can tell you now there are 73. You had reduced the number?

:36:48.:36:55.

Absolutely. But still failed to... You accept procedures are not

:36:55.:36:59.

ideal? When you have a consultant filling a temporary position, there

:36:59.:37:04.

are no details about the contract, no sign whether it was put out to

:37:04.:37:08.

fair competition. We have high standards of recruiting people and

:37:08.:37:14.

I am confident every single person, or whether a consultant or coming

:37:14.:37:19.

in on contract to teach kids music or sport, has gone through the most

:37:19.:37:22.

rigorous of processes. What the Deloitte report showed was that

:37:22.:37:25.

there were things we need to do differently and better, and we have

:37:25.:37:30.

done every one of them are. What is the average daily rate of a

:37:30.:37:33.

consultant that you pay? Consultants are from photographers

:37:34.:37:37.

that take a couple of photos at events all the way up to... Have

:37:37.:37:43.

you got an average? It would be unfair to say an average rate,

:37:43.:37:47.

because the word is pretty meaningless when some people are

:37:47.:37:50.

brought in literally as suppliers, but because the rules say they have

:37:50.:37:55.

to be paid in a certain way, reports can look at them as if they

:37:55.:38:00.

are consultants. One thing struck me, a former employee left and then

:38:00.:38:06.

was paid �21,000 for 25 days' work. Were they on that rate when they

:38:06.:38:09.

were a member of staff, or on leaving have they upped their pay

:38:09.:38:15.

rate? There is nothing unusual in people, having full-time paid

:38:15.:38:19.

employment some might, moving away, retiring, coming back and then

:38:19.:38:23.

helping with something they have a key specialism in as a consultant.

:38:23.:38:29.

In terms of money, that member of staff, and other members of staff,

:38:29.:38:32.

when they come back are they paid more than when they were staff

:38:32.:38:38.

members? Not necessarily, some well, some went, but we are a value for

:38:38.:38:43.

money council and one person being focused on quite a lot as a

:38:43.:38:49.

consultant has been -- has saved Hammersmith & Fulham Homes �6

:38:49.:38:53.

million in running costs for the organisation. That is value for

:38:53.:38:58.

money. Where there any other dissolved companies, we heard about

:38:58.:39:05.

one, were their overs you paid money to for consultants? -- were

:39:05.:39:09.

there any others? That company was trading under the same name,

:39:09.:39:12.

changed company number and there was a clerical error that the wrong

:39:13.:39:16.

number was put in, which was put right, but it is nothing more than

:39:16.:39:20.

a clerical error from somebody who puts the numbers into a machine.

:39:20.:39:25.

One thing is how much you paid to consultants with whom there was no

:39:25.:39:29.

written agreement, in other words how did the people of Hammersmith

:39:29.:39:33.

and Fulham know the money was well spent? How much had been paid for

:39:33.:39:39.

which there is no paper trail, that is surely of concern? I am sure

:39:39.:39:43.

there are paper trails out there, but that they are in a central

:39:43.:39:47.

register, which to Lloyd said we needed, and have now implemented,

:39:47.:39:52.

is another matter -- which Deloitte said we needed. We are currently

:39:52.:39:57.

paying about �1.3 million to what you are calling consultants, but

:39:57.:40:02.

many of whom are, for example one person is contracted to do Movement

:40:02.:40:06.

therapy sessions in a special school, not a consultant that takes

:40:06.:40:12.

you on a journey. Do you think, is the intention in the end that the

:40:12.:40:17.

use of consultants is to reduce the direct workforce, it paid pensions

:40:17.:40:24.

and so on? We are about value for money, we have reduced 1,500 staff

:40:24.:40:28.

from the council since 2006, but from time to time you need to bring

:40:28.:40:33.

in someone with a specialism. Doesn't they show what can go wrong,

:40:33.:40:36.

and you do not have procedures in place to ensure value for money

:40:36.:40:41.

when you take on consultants in this way? We have corrected the

:40:41.:40:45.

procedural points, but one consultant saved �6 million in

:40:45.:40:50.

running costs for Hammersmith and Fulham homes, got us to the second

:40:50.:40:54.

lowest leaseholder charges in all of London. Consultants coming in

:40:54.:40:57.

with great specialisms, great experience, help us to save money,

:40:57.:41:04.

and that is what we are looking to did. Thank you for commit in.

:41:04.:41:08.

We have national adoption Week coming up, but our London councils

:41:08.:41:12.

putting up too many barriers to adoption? The capital lags behind

:41:13.:41:19.

other parts of the country, just 7% of children were adopted last year

:41:19.:41:22.

compared to nationally 11%. But some local authorities are finding

:41:22.:41:27.

ways to improved the rate. For George and Mary, adopting their

:41:27.:41:31.

son was like changing, but as they found out when they went to their

:41:31.:41:34.

local council, not as straightforward as they had. They

:41:34.:41:40.

were very, very busy at that time, and Mauroy less we had a five or 10

:41:40.:41:45.

minute conversation on the found and they said, we cannot help you

:41:45.:41:49.

at this time because we are so busy, but can you call back in six

:41:49.:41:54.

months? When they were contacted by a children's charity, things

:41:54.:41:59.

started to changed. In the first meeting with the charity, they were

:41:59.:42:06.

pretty honest, relaying they thought it would be difficult to

:42:06.:42:10.

match us, in particular at that time there was more emphasis in

:42:10.:42:15.

terms of getting ethnicity correct, and a Greek-Cypriot background with

:42:15.:42:21.

a finish background was a difficult makes to find an appropriate

:42:21.:42:27.

placement. A year later, they said, times have changed, we do now think

:42:27.:42:31.

there is a chance we could match you, and we would like you to talk

:42:31.:42:36.

to was again. While they did adopt in London, the charity works with

:42:36.:42:41.

parents across the country, matching parents to suitability and

:42:41.:42:45.

not location. Since 2006, they have worked with Harrow council who have

:42:45.:42:51.

gone on to see the best adoption rates in the country. We have a 22%

:42:51.:42:55.

success rate for children being adopted. When children come into

:42:55.:42:58.

care, especially young children who we think would benefit from being

:42:59.:43:03.

adopted, the charity is there, they have adoptive parents ready, said

:43:03.:43:08.

the child does not have to sit around. They go from birth parents

:43:08.:43:11.

to the family without too many changes, so it is best for the

:43:11.:43:16.

child. But across the board there are barriers which prevent children

:43:16.:43:21.

from finding permanent homes. Everyone I have spoken to who is

:43:21.:43:26.

involved in the adoption process say it takes far too long. In our

:43:26.:43:31.

case, the legal system could have allowed us potentially to have

:43:31.:43:35.

adopted our young boy at least several months earlier if it had

:43:35.:43:39.

been streamlined. For families looking to adopt, change looks like

:43:39.:43:44.

it might be on the horizon. With increased government support, as

:43:44.:43:48.

David Cameron out like in his speech. How can we have let this

:43:48.:43:53.

happen? We have people flying all over the world to adopt babies

:43:53.:43:57.

while the care system at home agonises about placing black

:43:57.:44:02.

children with white families. With the right values and effort, let us

:44:02.:44:06.

be the ones who end this scandal and help the most vulnerable

:44:06.:44:12.

children of all. Strong words, but with such -- but will it result in

:44:12.:44:17.

any change for London's families? The former head of Barnardo's is

:44:17.:44:22.

here, now a ministerial adviser on adoption. Where do you think the

:44:22.:44:26.

problem lies in the capital? That was a very good film, and Harrow

:44:26.:44:32.

are leading the way not just in the capital but in England in terms of

:44:32.:44:36.

seizing adoption, taking it seriously, managing it with an

:44:36.:44:40.

urgency. But they are being grown- up enough to bring in an

:44:40.:44:47.

organisation to help them. If everyone else in England, not just

:44:47.:44:52.

in London, gripped adoption the way Harrow has done, the numbers would

:44:52.:44:58.

probably dog all. So they are exemplar, and if they are, a number

:44:58.:45:04.

of London authorities may not be doing it the way you would like it

:45:04.:45:09.

to be done? It is very mixed. My sense is all authorities in London

:45:09.:45:14.

are waking up to the challenge, but from my point of view, someone who

:45:14.:45:18.

wants adoptions to grow, seeing the conference speech and the Prime

:45:18.:45:21.

Minister putting his personal authority behind adoption was

:45:21.:45:24.

terrific, and a sense in the capital and elsewhere a real

:45:24.:45:29.

movement. But there is a lot to be done. We have to feel adoptions,

:45:29.:45:35.

too many children in care, not all can be adopted, but many of them,

:45:35.:45:40.

and we have too many parents being turned away and discouraged, failed

:45:40.:45:50.
:45:50.:45:50.

by an assessment process I do not Do you realise -- recognise it is

:45:50.:45:55.

more difficult in London? Why is it happening? I would not say London

:45:55.:46:02.

is worse than under -- other parts of the country. I do hear more

:46:02.:46:05.

often than I would like to anecdotes about parents being

:46:05.:46:09.

turned away from London boroughs because their ethnicity doesn't

:46:09.:46:15.

match. The government has made it very, very clear... His there an

:46:15.:46:20.

immediate adherence to that code? Are you seeing local authorities

:46:20.:46:25.

for not insisting on this restriction? No. We have some way

:46:25.:46:31.

to go yet and that guidance may over time need to be reinforced and

:46:31.:46:35.

indeed the government may have to decide whether or not to legislate.

:46:35.:46:40.

Is it having an effect? A limited effect. We are a multicultural

:46:40.:46:45.

society. In all other walks of life we have concluded, rightly, that

:46:45.:46:50.

colour doesn't matter. But in London and the rest of England, a

:46:50.:46:54.

black child is three times less likely to be a doctor than a white

:46:54.:47:02.

child. I think that is a scandal. - - likely to be adopted. Do you

:47:02.:47:08.

think the guidelines... Do you think we will legislate? I think

:47:08.:47:12.

the guidelines, we were right to start with guidelines, and the

:47:12.:47:17.

leadership we see from the children's minister, Michael Gove,

:47:17.:47:21.

and the Prime Minister, is making a difference. But my advice to

:47:21.:47:25.

ministers, if this time next year I have not seen a change in practice,

:47:25.:47:30.

my advice will be they probably need to legislate. Can I ask you

:47:30.:47:33.

something that has been raised to ask? Does the economy affect the

:47:33.:47:38.

number of people coming forward for adoptions? It has been said to me

:47:38.:47:43.

that that is the case, but I think there are other things we can do to

:47:43.:47:47.

counterbalance that. I want people to be told the truth about adoption,

:47:47.:47:52.

adoption can be very, very challenging. But adoption can be a

:47:52.:47:56.

joy. Sometimes the information people get from local authorities

:47:56.:48:01.

when they first applied can be unduly negative. Are too many

:48:01.:48:07.

people being placed with family friends? If those placements end up

:48:07.:48:12.

breaking down, it delays the age at which the adoption... There is not

:48:12.:48:17.

a simple answer. Sometimes family and friends are the best place and

:48:17.:48:22.

the best example his grandparents, who do a fantastic job in caring

:48:22.:48:26.

for their grandchildren. But there is evidence that sometimes we are

:48:26.:48:29.

compromising on what is best for the child by putting them with an

:48:29.:48:33.

uncle or aunt when the best thing would be adoption. Do you think

:48:33.:48:39.

that balance is not right? We don't know yet. Tim Loughton has just

:48:39.:48:43.

commissioned research into the breakdown of what he called a

:48:43.:48:47.

special guardianship orders where somebody goes to a relative. I am

:48:47.:48:51.

worried that sometimes we take the easy route and not the best route.

:48:51.:48:57.

Was that research in London? Across England. Do you think they could be

:48:57.:49:01.

a rush to too much reliance on friends and family? I want to be

:49:01.:49:06.

very careful because I have seen so many circumstances where it is the

:49:06.:49:09.

very, very best thing and I don't want to suggest a grandparent that

:49:09.:49:13.

they can't be great carers. But sometimes social workers whisper to

:49:13.:49:18.

me that in some of those cases, a compromise is made and the best

:49:18.:49:22.

thing for a child would be a permanent adoption. The length of

:49:22.:49:27.

time it seems to take, whether it is decision-making or the courts,

:49:27.:49:32.

there are lot of children at over four or five, the longer it takes

:49:32.:49:37.

the long -- less likely they are to be adopted. There are children

:49:37.:49:40.

under four waiting for adoption. Children grow old waiting for

:49:40.:49:47.

adoption. A becomes less likely -- it becomes less likely that they

:49:47.:49:51.

will become looked after. It takes two-and-a-half years to achieve an

:49:51.:50:00.

adoption. You have a child of 12 months, much less of a challenge in

:50:00.:50:02.

terms of a successful adoption can and that child is three years old

:50:02.:50:07.

or more before they are adopted. The earlier they are adopted, the

:50:07.:50:13.

more successful that adoption is likely to be. A year from now, how

:50:13.:50:17.

will you know whether you have been successful? The number of children

:50:17.:50:21.

cleared for adoption will have shown a significant increase. I am

:50:21.:50:25.

now confident it will have done. You can do that in the year? I am

:50:26.:50:33.

confident it is happening now. will hold you to it! I cue. With

:50:33.:50:43.
:50:43.:50:45.

Now, I don't know if you've noticed, but everything's been feeling a bit

:50:45.:50:49.

early '90s lately. Economic hard times, The Stone Roses going back

:50:49.:50:52.

out on the road and tomorrow, a Tory rebellion on Europe of the

:50:52.:50:55.

sort we haven't seen since those happy days of the Maastricht treaty.

:50:55.:50:59.

So who better to make the case for and against tomorrow's motion on a

:50:59.:51:01.

referendum on the UK's relationship with Europe than two veterans of

:51:01.:51:08.

the Major cabinet - Tory MPs Sir Malcolm Rikfind and John Redwood.

:51:08.:51:14.

Easy questions first. John Redwood, make the case for. The public wish

:51:14.:51:18.

for this is overwhelming. Remember how they started. The Prime

:51:18.:51:21.

Minister said we will have petitions on the Number Ten website

:51:21.:51:27.

for things people are interested in. The public said we want a debate on

:51:27.:51:31.

this. The backbench committee said let's do just that. I would urge

:51:31.:51:36.

colleagues to have a good, sensible debate, no recriminations, but get

:51:36.:51:39.

to grips with the issues and then vote for a referendum because that

:51:39.:51:44.

is what the majority of the people want. Sir Malcolm Rifkind, why is

:51:44.:51:48.

he wrong? Whatever level of enthusiasm you have for the EU, it

:51:48.:51:53.

is the wrong motion and the wrong time and the wrong subject. The

:51:53.:51:59.

eurozone is in total crisis. If that goes wrong, it is Britain's

:51:59.:52:04.

drama as well as the rest of Europe. For us to be involved in in would

:52:04.:52:08.

navel-gazing at the moment on a matter that will not happen, there

:52:08.:52:11.

will not be a referendum, is a massive distraction from the

:52:11.:52:15.

serious issues the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of dealing with.

:52:15.:52:22.

If it wants to be passed, seriously reduce his authority and the

:52:22.:52:25.

division it shows in the governing party is not helpful to Britain or

:52:25.:52:29.

the government. I don't see it like that. There is this huge public

:52:29.:52:34.

yearning. The very popular part of the motion with the public and MPs

:52:34.:52:38.

is the Third Way, the wish to negotiate a relationship for

:52:38.:52:43.

Britain based on trade and co- operation. This is a modern notion.

:52:43.:52:48.

We know the world has moved on. We are now facing, immediately, the

:52:48.:52:53.

possibility of a much strengthened European government for the 17 in

:52:53.:52:56.

the euro. That is a different problem for Britain from the old

:52:56.:53:04.

European Union. What about the point of Malcolm Rifkind? It can't

:53:04.:53:08.

possibly be a distraction, it is at the centre of the modern debate. We

:53:08.:53:13.

are saying to Europe, if you wish to go ahead, we will not stand in

:53:13.:53:17.

your way because we are decent and understand the problems. It is a

:53:18.:53:22.

mess. But Britain need a different relationship. If they go ahead with

:53:22.:53:26.

that, that is not a European Union in which we are a strong

:53:26.:53:30.

negotiating member. We need a different relationship. John said

:53:31.:53:36.

the attractive thing are three options, in, out or in any

:53:36.:53:40.

negotiation based on trade and co- operation. That is ingenuous, as is

:53:40.:53:45.

the motion. That third option is what Norway and Switzerland have.

:53:45.:53:49.

That is leaving the European option -- Union. I do believe there needs

:53:49.:53:54.

to be diversity in the EU. When the eurozone of it actually comes

:53:54.:53:58.

forward asking the European Union as a whole for new powers for those

:53:58.:54:03.

members who want to do it further, that is when we have negotiations.

:54:03.:54:07.

That is when Britain says, if you want to have that, fine, but

:54:07.:54:11.

Britain and others who don't, we have to have an equal right to

:54:11.:54:14.

repatriate certain parts. At the end of that negotiation, that is

:54:14.:54:19.

when you have a referendum. This is happening now. I'm sure Malcolm

:54:19.:54:23.

must have read some of these documents. The European six-pack

:54:23.:54:26.

for strengthening economic government. President arose so it

:54:26.:54:30.

made a powerful speech said a lot of this had to apply to Britain as

:54:30.:54:34.

well as the 17 euro members. There will be a call for much stronger

:54:34.:54:39.

surveillance of the banking system, a call for a new financial services

:54:39.:54:42.

tax to be imposed on Britain as well as the 17. This is the reality.

:54:42.:54:48.

Of course I want our government to be engaged reactively, but we

:54:48.:54:54.

need... John sounds sweet, but it is nonsense, forgive me. The

:54:54.:54:57.

discussion tomorrow is not about whether they should be a debate

:54:57.:55:01.

about Europe and whether there are options to be taken forward, it is

:55:01.:55:05.

whether at this moment, with all the crisis going on, we should have

:55:05.:55:10.

a referendum in the UK Sailing does Britain want to leave the you? The

:55:10.:55:14.

idea that that would not be massively destabilising, seriously

:55:14.:55:17.

eroded Government's authority, as well as make Britain look a

:55:17.:55:21.

laughing stock when the real crisis facing Europe is the future of the

:55:21.:55:24.

eurozone and how we prevent a prevent -- a repeat of the Labour

:55:24.:55:31.

disaster. Don't you worry that you were out of tune with your party on

:55:31.:55:34.

this? John Redwood is closer to the heartbeat of the Conservative Party

:55:34.:55:40.

on this issue that new? No, there his head and heart. I am strongly

:55:40.:55:47.

against the single currency. did you are sure eyebrows? I don't

:55:47.:55:50.

remember you writing or speaking strongly about how the euro would

:55:50.:55:53.

go wrong in the way I did. When I was Foreign Secretary I had a

:55:54.:55:57.

public spat with Ken Clarke as Chancellor because I said as

:55:57.:56:01.

Foreign Secretary the Cabinet is against joining the single currency.

:56:01.:56:07.

We had a great drama that day. Delighted. But the Cabinet wouldn't

:56:07.:56:11.

rule out joining the euro, which was why I resigned. My personal

:56:12.:56:16.

view is not that important. The crucial point is the vast majority

:56:16.:56:20.

of the Conservative Party have various degrees of Euro-scepticism.

:56:20.:56:24.

The issue is not that. It is whether this is the right moment,

:56:24.:56:30.

with Europe in high drama on the eurozone issue, to be having this

:56:30.:56:33.

self-indulgent exercise as to whether a non-existent referendum

:56:33.:56:39.

should be held. How has this been handled by Number Ten? I would urge

:56:39.:56:44.

them to conduct it in a good spirit on Monday. This is something the

:56:44.:56:49.

public is taking four. So don't have a three-line whip?

:56:49.:56:52.

government is clearly going to defeat the motion overwhelmingly

:56:52.:56:55.

because Labour and the Lib Dems have whipped their members and most

:56:55.:56:59.

of them will want to vote against the motion. The issue is not in

:56:59.:57:04.

doubt. Nick Clegg says you are tilting at windmills on this. Don

:57:04.:57:09.

Quixote Redwood. I disagree with Mr Clegg. What I am others are trying

:57:09.:57:14.

to do, this is not my motion, it is a result of public enthusiasm, but

:57:14.:57:17.

I am trying to do is get the government to seriously engage with

:57:17.:57:24.

this issue. We need to negotiate now because now is the crisis and

:57:24.:57:27.

the opportunity. Now we would be very constructive if Britain was

:57:27.:57:31.

less engaged because it is one less problem for the others when they

:57:31.:57:35.

are in a burning building. The last thing we want to do is trust

:57:35.:57:40.

ourselves in the building. A final thought. I do feel like I am

:57:40.:57:46.

reliving the 1990s, enjoying it as I am speaking to you both! Won't

:57:46.:57:49.

this remind people of the Conservative Party of the 1990s

:57:49.:57:56.

where you were all falling out? That would be the Labour spin. The

:57:56.:58:01.

real debate is one required by the public about the issues now.

:58:01.:58:05.

People's budgets are suffering now, the economy is in trouble, partly

:58:05.:58:09.

because of European issues. final word from you, is this

:58:09.:58:15.

damaging? Europe is a real issue, the Conservative Party is 19 absent

:58:15.:58:19.

Eurosceptic. The question for tomorrow is this sensible, to start

:58:19.:58:24.

trying to force a referendum at this moment in our history? Rather

:58:24.:58:29.

than concentrating, as John was coming round to saying, just

:58:29.:58:31.

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