Browse content similar to 23/10/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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This week on the Politics Show: Where does this man stand on the | :00:09. | :00:12. | |
euro crisis and Britain's relationship with the European | :00:12. | :00:15. | |
Union? Ed Miliband joins us like. | :00:15. | :00:19. | |
And back to the nineties in the Commons tomorrow with a Tory Prime | :00:19. | :00:25. | |
Minister pacing a major back but were brought over Europe. Malcolm | :00:25. | :00:28. | |
Rifkind and John Redwood were in the Cabinet then and take opposing | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
views now, they will be here to argue the case. | :00:32. | :00:36. | |
And as Libya officially declares its liberation from the Gaddafi era, | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
there are growing calls for an investigation into the former | :00:39. | :00:44. | |
dictator's debt. I will ask Andrew Mitchell if he believes the Libyan | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
Prime Minister's account, but don't worry, we will ask him about Europe, | :00:48. | :00:51. | |
due. In London, London councils are | :00:51. | :00:56. | |
finding room for consultants despite budget cuts. Is it better | :00:56. | :01:01. | |
having their own employees? We look at some of the problems of the Tory | :01:01. | :01:11. | |
:01:11. | :01:16. | ||
And joining me to rout the programme, the Guardian's Nick Watt | :01:16. | :01:20. | |
and Sue Cameron of the Financial Times. First, the news with Max in | :01:20. | :01:25. | |
the Winnie. Libya's liberation will be formally | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
announced in the next few hours. The head of the National | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
Transitional Council, Mustafa Abdul Jalil, will address a rally in the | :01:32. | :01:38. | |
city of Benghazi. The NTC has defended Colonel Gaddafi's debt, | :01:38. | :01:41. | |
which Phillip Hammond said this morning had stained the interim | :01:42. | :01:49. | |
government's reputation. The day they have been waiting for | :01:49. | :01:55. | |
42 years. Their day they have been fighting for eight hard months. | :01:55. | :02:00. | |
Until a few days ago, many of these soldiers were battling Colonel | :02:00. | :02:05. | |
Gaddafi's forces on the frontline. Today, the uniforms are freshly | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
ironed as a witness what they believe is the start of a new | :02:08. | :02:15. | |
chapter in Libya's history. This day will be in the memory of | :02:15. | :02:20. | |
everyone, they will never forget this day. But questions remain | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
about whether the fresh Start has already been tainted. This new | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
amateur footage contains further evidence that the Libyan leader may | :02:27. | :02:33. | |
have been shot dead after he was captured. This is an ambulance and | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
a convoy believed to be carrying Colonel Gaddafi's body. Anti- | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
Gaddafi fighters are congratulating the man they say shot him. This is | :02:41. | :02:46. | |
the man who killed Gaddafi with his hand, using this gun, says one of | :02:46. | :02:51. | |
his comrades. But still the interim Prime Minister insists Colonel | :02:51. | :02:56. | |
Gaddafi died in crossfire, not at the hands of his captors. I saw the | :02:56. | :03:02. | |
body myself. I can testify there were no bruises on his face or his | :03:02. | :03:09. | |
body. It's some body once did -- wanted to abuse his body, that was | :03:09. | :03:15. | |
the perfect chance. This is where it began eight months ago when | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
protesters overran this huge military base. This is where it is | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
ending with the announcement of the liberation of the country. Libyans | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
are celebrating with a mixture of pride, joy, but above all, she | :03:26. | :03:32. | |
relief that the ordeal is over. In neighbouring Tunisia, voting has | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
begun in the country's first election since January's | :03:36. | :03:41. | |
revolutions. The polls opened this morning in the first voting since | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
the Arab Spring uprisings. A previously banned Islamist party is | :03:44. | :03:51. | |
expected to win the biggest bloc in the nationalist government. | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
David Cameron has arrived in Brussels to join talks on the you | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
resent financial crisis. Mafi prose is there. -- on the eurozone | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
financial crisis, Matthew Price is there. | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
What they want is an end to the debt crisis. What they are focusing | :04:09. | :04:14. | |
on his part of the jigsaw puzzle of a solution they are trying to put | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
together, gross, Europe's economy is essentially stagnant at the | :04:19. | :04:25. | |
moment and it is clear that without growth, any measures will only be | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
short-term fixes. It is high stakes. He did not have a lot to say, but | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
this is what he said when he arrived. The crisis in the eurozone | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
is having an effect on all of our economies, Britain included. We | :04:38. | :04:43. | |
need to deal with the issue so it is right to have a European Council | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
and for them to discuss the issue today. | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
Several sources tell me there has indeed been agreement between the | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
finance ministers this weekend over how to recapitalise, how to | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
strengthen Europe's banks, but on the big questions, on Greece, on | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
boosting the bail-out fund, there is a long way to go and those | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
discussions will continue into the coming days. We expect the big | :05:09. | :05:15. | |
summit to be happening on Wednesday. New Zealand are the Rugby Union | :05:15. | :05:17. | |
world champions after beating France in what was a tense tussle | :05:17. | :05:22. | |
in Auckland. A try by New Zealand early in the first half proved | :05:22. | :05:28. | |
decisive, with the All Blacks winning by just one point, 8-7. It | :05:28. | :05:31. | |
is 24 years since they were last world champions. | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
That is it, plenty more on BBC One at 6:00pm. | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
Thank you. On one of the newspaper websites I | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
visited this morning, there was the eurozone crisis story and above | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
that the slogan, "Contagion, nothing spreads like fear". | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
Actually, the Contagion bit was an advert for a new film. But the fear | :05:51. | :05:56. | |
of contagion in the 17 countries which have the euro is what EU | :05:56. | :06:01. | |
leaders are working on today. Here, the political class is more | :06:01. | :06:07. | |
obsessed with a boat on EU membership coming tomorrow. What is | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
going to happen? I think the Prime Minister will win | :06:11. | :06:17. | |
the vote, because you will hear from Ed Miliband in a few moments | :06:17. | :06:19. | |
that the Labour Party is supporting the government motion, and because | :06:19. | :06:24. | |
David Cameron has put a three-line whip on his MPs and will probably | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
find he will sneak a majority of the Conservative backbench vote. | :06:27. | :06:35. | |
Does it matter? It matters in terms, perhaps, of Cameron's ability to | :06:35. | :06:42. | |
manage his party. If it were to go through, I don't think it is going | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
to, I don't think you will get that many Tory MPs voting for a | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
referendum, but if it were to go through, all sorts of calamitous | :06:50. | :07:00. | |
things could happen. However, I think it will not go through. I | :07:00. | :07:05. | |
think that the appeal to Tory MPs will be, don't embarrass the | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
government and for heaven's sake don't rock the markets even more. | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
We will be good there because we will talk about this more later on. | :07:13. | :07:18. | |
Later today Libya declares the end of Colonel Gaddafi's brutal reign, | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
but controversy remains over how he met his death. Does it matter? What | :07:22. | :07:28. | |
does it say about the fledgling democracy? The international | :07:28. | :07:30. | |
development secretary Andrew Mitchell joins us from | :07:30. | :07:38. | |
Nottinghamshire. Do you believe Prime Minister's account that he | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
was caught in crossfire? It was obviously an extremely confusing | :07:43. | :07:49. | |
moment and I would have preferred he faced justice either in a Libyan | :07:49. | :07:52. | |
court or the International Criminal Court in the Hague. But it is | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
difficult for us from the comfort of Britain to put ourselves into | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
the position of the soldiers and those involved in the capture of | :07:59. | :08:04. | |
Gaddafi, and the best account of those from the Libyans themselves. | :08:04. | :08:11. | |
So you understand why people may have taken his life? I don't know | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
what the precise circumstances were, by there were people around him who | :08:14. | :08:19. | |
were still offering resistance, none of that is clear, but the | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
point stands that it would have been much better if he had faced | :08:23. | :08:28. | |
justice, either in the Libyan courts or the hade. And it matters, | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
doesn't it, because for a fledgling democracy this is hardly an | :08:32. | :08:37. | |
auspicious start? It does matter, but let's be clear what the NTC | :08:37. | :08:42. | |
have been saying. They have, throughout the whole of this battle, | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
been clear that there must be no retribution, they have been | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
extremely good at trying to ensure that safety and conflict resolution | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
and justice are prioritised. We have seen that in Tripoli and are | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
seeing it throughout Libya, so I think the NTC have been clear that | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
this is a new beginning and there must be no retribution against | :09:03. | :09:08. | |
those who were fighting for Gaddafi in recent months. But then you look | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
at the seams that unfolded with his demise and it looked rather | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
different. That is true, but it is the heat of battle. The essential | :09:17. | :09:23. | |
thing now is the NTC leadership saying there will not be | :09:23. | :09:28. | |
retribution. There are good signs the NTC will ensure that does | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
happen, and they have the strong support of the international | :09:32. | :09:37. | |
community in that. What is the role of Britain now? We gave aid at the | :09:37. | :09:42. | |
start of this when people were displaced, is any more aid budget | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
going to oil rich Libya? We where rapid in the relief we gave to the | :09:47. | :09:52. | |
poor migrant workers who were streaming across the border into | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
Egypt and Tunisia, more than one million people have gone across the | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
borders. Throughout this battle there has never been more than six | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
or 7,000 camped on the borders each night, said the humanitarian work | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
that Britain led was successful throughout a whole of the battles, | :10:09. | :10:14. | |
and we have given strong support to UNICEF, who have performed | :10:14. | :10:19. | |
brilliantly throughout this time. Going forward, Libya is a rich | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
state, and we know very well that it has the capacity now to rebuild | :10:23. | :10:28. | |
itself. There has been little destruction of infrastructure | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
throughout the battles because of the care the coalition took not to | :10:31. | :10:35. | |
cause collateral damage, and what they need now is some technical | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
assistance and support for what is a Libyan lead UN supported | :10:40. | :10:45. | |
stabilisation process. Can we move on now to what is happening in the | :10:45. | :10:50. | |
House of Commons tomorrow? This vote on whether there should be a | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
referendum on Britain's relationship with Europe. Has | :10:54. | :11:01. | |
Downing Street got this one right? Yes, absolutely. I was a government | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
whip during the Maastricht treaty debate in the House of Commons, | :11:05. | :11:10. | |
which did such terrible damage to the Conservative party's | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
reputations. There are two key things people in Britain want to | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
see, the first is the armlock legislation the Government passed | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
through the House of Commons which says no further powers can be | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
transferred to Brussels without a referendum in Britain, that was a | :11:25. | :11:30. | |
priority for many people, and secondly they want to see the euro | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
as an crisis solved, which is why the Prime Minister is in Europe | :11:33. | :11:38. | |
making sure Britain does its bit to help eurozone countries resolve the | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
crisis which, as he described, is chilling the British economy as | :11:42. | :11:48. | |
well as others around the world. Those are the two priorities. The | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
referendum is a distraction. raise the ante of having a three- | :11:53. | :11:58. | |
line whip? Why not let people express their opinions? It is the | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
policy of the government that we should do the two things I have | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
described, those being pursued vigorously by this government, and | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
to have a referendum would be a distraction. The government is | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
right to make it clear that is our view and invite that house of | :12:13. | :12:19. | |
Commons to support it. A poll today says 80% want a free vote. | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
truth is you ask the British public what are their priorities, Europe | :12:23. | :12:28. | |
appears something like No. 15 or 16, so I think the key priorities are | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
the two that I mentioned, have been the armlock on no more powers being | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
removed from a sovereign government at Westminster into Brussels on one | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
hand, and sold in the eurozone crisis which has the power if not | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
sold to do damage to our economy and others around the world. | :12:45. | :12:50. | |
talked about your role as a whip in the 90s, you ran David Davies' | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
campaign. He said, do not refuse people their right to answer the | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
question because you are afraid of what the answer could be. He is | :12:58. | :13:03. | |
right, isn't he? The government has brought in a mechanism whereby | :13:03. | :13:08. | |
these matters can be debated now in the House of Commons, that was one | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
of our coalition commitments. But in my view, the right way to vote, | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
what I will encourage my colleagues to do, is to vote against the | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
motion for the reasons I hope I have set out. Andrew Mitchell, | :13:21. | :13:26. | |
thank you for being with us. Where does Labour stand on the | :13:26. | :13:31. | |
eurozone crisis and the referendum issue? Given its centrality, not | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
surprising that Ed Miliband has chosen this weekend to intervene on | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
the euro and David Cameron's backbench woes. Let's see what he | :13:38. | :13:44. | |
has been saying. Ed Miliband is on the offensive | :13:44. | :13:49. | |
over Europe, after months where he said little on the subject he has | :13:49. | :13:54. | |
taken fresh Tory divisions as his due to go on the attack. He told | :13:54. | :14:02. | |
his party they must reject Tamara's motion, an idea that he says is | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
barking. He described David Cameron's handling of the issue as | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
cack-handed. He laid into the Prime Minister for his decision to go | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
ahead with a trip to Australia next week, arguing he should join | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
eurozone leaders as they tend to find a solution to the crisis, | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
banging on the door for more influence. And George Osborne is in | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
his sights, too. He says the Chancellor is using the euro crisis | :14:27. | :14:32. | |
as an excuse for the Government's mishandling of the economy and | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
suggests he is glorying in the emergence of a two speed Europe. | :14:36. | :14:42. | |
But questions remain over Miliband's prescription. He and the | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
Shadow Chancellor have not offered many answers to the you resent's | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
problems, preferring to talk about boosting growth at home. While | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
plans for a VAT cut and tax-break for small firms have been taken | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
seriously by business leaders, over proposals raised eyebrows, | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
including a promise to penalise companies that put short-term | :15:02. | :15:12. | |
:15:12. | :15:13. | ||
advantage over the interests of the I am joined by the Labour leader. | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
You have accused David Cameron of behaving in a totally cack-handed | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
way over tomorrow's vote. His position is exactly the same as | :15:21. | :15:26. | |
yours. It isn't. What I have done over Europe is show clearly | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
leadership about where we need to be as a country, which is not | :15:30. | :15:36. | |
having an out referendum now and also not indulging Euro-scepticism. | :15:36. | :15:41. | |
That is the same as David Cameron. It isn't. What has David Cameron | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
done over the last six years? He has appeased Euro-sceptics in his | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
own party. He is facing them down. This is a person who stood on his | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
own leadership campaign on getting out of a mainstream European | :15:54. | :15:59. | |
People's Party and going with a fringe element. He is the person | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
who at the election was saying let's renegotiate our whole | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
relationship with Europe. It is no wonder his backbenchers are | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
disappointed because he has been pretending he is one of them. Now | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
he is facing a serious crisis in Europe and clearly it would be | :16:14. | :16:19. | |
irresponsible for him to say yes, let's have an out referendum, | :16:19. | :16:25. | |
because it would be bad for Britain. He has exactly the same position as | :16:25. | :16:33. | |
you, three-line whip against it. is right to be opposing... Why is | :16:33. | :16:36. | |
the leader of the -- false opposition... It is not false | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
opposition. Why have we got the Conservative Party tearing | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
themselves apart over Europe? The prime minister has not stood up to | :16:44. | :16:50. | |
his party and said, look, actually, being in Europe, understanding our | :16:50. | :16:54. | |
role in Europe, not dabbling with Euro-scepticism, that is a | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
mainstream, important position we have to take. That is why he has | :16:58. | :17:05. | |
brought the vote on himself. You have got a new Conservative Party | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
who are as Eurosceptic if not more so than the previous generation. | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
You have labelled some of these people as barking. I have said it | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
would be barking to get out of Europe now. Let me explain. | :17:17. | :17:20. | |
wonder whether you think some of your backbench colleagues are | :17:20. | :17:27. | |
barking? Keith Vaz, Kate Hoey? me explain. We have boarders coming | :17:27. | :17:32. | |
down across the world, we have interconnected countries, problems | :17:32. | :17:37. | |
across borders. Climate change, the economy, terrorism. It would not | :17:37. | :17:42. | |
only be wrong for Britain to get out of Europe. Where Mike Liggins | :17:42. | :17:48. | |
the referendum? Because I think we can't afford the economic | :17:48. | :17:52. | |
uncertainty. The economic uncertainty, when everybody in this | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
country knows that priority is jobs and growth, the signal we would | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
centre businesses and other countries in Europe and indeed | :17:59. | :18:05. | |
investors in Britain that we are going to spend 18 months looking | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
inwards, we would look inwards as a country, and start debating whether | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
we should get out of Europe. I understand people's frustrations | :18:12. | :18:18. | |
with Europe, but what I say is actually getting out or embarking | :18:18. | :18:22. | |
on a debate about getting at is the wrong thing for the country. That | :18:22. | :18:27. | |
is why I have taken my position. That is the same as David Cameron. | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
He is opposing a referendum. Of course that is right. But what I am | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
saying to the Prime Minister is you don't need to dabble with his Euro- | :18:35. | :18:39. | |
scepticism, I am guaranteeing you will win the vote. What I don't | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
want to see from him or William Hague is a nod and a wink, which is | :18:43. | :18:48. | |
what we have seen over the last six years, to the Euro-sceptics in the | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
Conservative Party. Everybody knows the Conservative Party has | :18:51. | :18:56. | |
modernised over Europe. It is the fault of David Cameron. Some people | :18:56. | :19:00. | |
will say the real conspiracy at the moment is the fact that the | :19:00. | :19:03. | |
Conservatives and the Lib Dems and Labour are broadly on the same page | :19:03. | :19:09. | |
and are almost in defiance of British public opinion. 61% want a | :19:09. | :19:15. | |
referendum, 64% don't want to stay in. We are on a different page. The | :19:15. | :19:19. | |
priority in Europe is jobs and growth. Let's have a reform agenda | :19:19. | :19:24. | |
for Europe, like renegotiating the Common Agricultural Policy, and | :19:24. | :19:29. | |
start investing Europe's money not actually in agricultural subsidies, | :19:29. | :19:36. | |
but in investment for the future. David Cameron says that I want to | :19:36. | :19:42. | |
go back to a position from 20 years ago. Let's spend our political | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
capital renegotiating things like employment rights, paid holiday, | :19:46. | :19:49. | |
maternity leave provisions. That is a totally different position on | :19:49. | :19:55. | |
Europe. You have a circa 1990 position from David Cameron, | :19:55. | :20:01. | |
dabbling with Euro-scepticism and essentially saying I agree with... | :20:01. | :20:06. | |
I have a different priority. wanted to ask you about the public. | :20:06. | :20:11. | |
34% believed we should leave the EU. 34% in this country, are they | :20:11. | :20:17. | |
barking? No, I think that is a judgment on some of the problems in | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
Europe, like in the single currency, and also a judgment on the fact | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
that we all need to make a better case for Europe and for the way | :20:24. | :20:30. | |
Europe can work to the benefit of us. I am coming from a position of | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
saying I am pro-European, but I am also pro-reform. Europe has to | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
change in the way it spends its money, on issues of waste and how | :20:38. | :20:43. | |
it serves people. Let me ask this single question. Yes or no answer. | :20:44. | :20:49. | |
Has Brussels got too much power? don't think it has too much power. | :20:49. | :20:56. | |
No need to repatriate powers? way power is exercised fails our | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
country sometimes. Let me give you an example. We have seen a high | :21:00. | :21:06. | |
profile case of a train company. One of the issues is over European | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
Union procurement rules and the way those decisions that individual | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
countries can make to support their industries. The way power is | :21:13. | :21:18. | |
exercised in Europe needs to change and the way but up it is not the | :21:18. | :21:23. | |
powers themselves? It is less about the power itself, but the way it is | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
used. And the accountability. have said if powers were | :21:27. | :21:32. | |
repatriated, it would be an end of maternity benefits. That is the | :21:32. | :21:35. | |
Government's position. The UK parliament could legislate what it | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
wanted. You said in an interview yesterday it would be an end to | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
those things. So the government wants to embark on a wholesale | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
renegotiation of our relationship with Europe over particular rights, | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
employment and social rights, and they don't want to change any of | :21:50. | :21:56. | |
those things? That is the wrong priority. Might it not be the | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
priority for the country... Might it not be in the interests of the | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
country to be up to change those policies as and when it is in the | :22:03. | :22:08. | |
economic interests of the country rather than being tied to Brussels? | :22:08. | :22:13. | |
No. We have a single market, a basic benchmark of social rights | :22:13. | :22:17. | |
across borders. It is a very small number, actually. It is the right | :22:17. | :22:23. | |
thing to do. It is right that it is not just the case that you want a | :22:23. | :22:28. | |
single market. Can you rule out prime minister Miller Band ever | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
joining the euro? I don't think that will happen. I don't think it | :22:32. | :22:37. | |
will happen. It depends how long I am Prime Minister for but I can't | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
see it. Would you say that because of the structural problems you have | :22:41. | :22:47. | |
seen recently, can't you just say I would never want Britain to be part | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
of the Europe -- Euro? First of all, we made the right decision not to | :22:51. | :22:55. | |
go into the euro in the last Labour government. The second thing I | :22:55. | :23:00. | |
would say it is there are structural problems, and we are not | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
going into the euro, I can't see that happening in the foreseeable | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
future. But the real priority... Her you're not closing the door? | :23:08. | :23:12. | |
is very, very unlikely. You said David Cameron should change his | :23:12. | :23:18. | |
plans next week to be in Brussels on Wednesday. Why? We are not part | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
of the eurozone. You are making the mistake that the government is | :23:21. | :23:26. | |
making. Eurozone must sort out its problems, we must have a | :23:26. | :23:31. | |
sustainable position for Greece. We must make sure the European banks | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
are properly dealt with and the problems in the European banks. | :23:34. | :23:39. | |
There is a missing element and that is growth. Growth doesn't just come | :23:39. | :23:42. | |
from the policies we decide on at home, they come from the policies | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
we decide on in Europe and across the world. What David Cameron | :23:47. | :23:52. | |
should be banging on the door to say is yes, let's sort out the | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
problems of debt, but let's sort out the problems of growth. Don't | :23:56. | :24:02. | |
you think he's doing that? There is no sign of doing it. We have | :24:02. | :24:04. | |
collectively austerity. Every country saying let's cut as far and | :24:04. | :24:09. | |
as fast as we can and keep our fingers crossed we will get growth. | :24:09. | :24:14. | |
Everybody is wrong apart from Ed Miliband and Ed Balls? No, but the | :24:15. | :24:18. | |
government took a gamble. They gambled on the fact we would have | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
an export-led recovery, but that requires exporting your goods, | :24:22. | :24:27. | |
including to Europe. We don't have the growth in Europe at the moment. | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
You just described a scenario where everybody is dealing with the | :24:31. | :24:35. | |
deficit. You're saying everyone else is wrong, Ed Balls and Ed | :24:35. | :24:42. | |
Miliband a right. Who agrees with you? President Obama is saying at | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
the moment, absolutely rightly, that the world and his country | :24:46. | :24:51. | |
needs to move forward by getting people back into work. Across the | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
world, there are different views on this. What I say very clearly is | :24:54. | :24:59. | |
that the government hasn't understood... I criticise them for | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
domestic failure, but also a failure of international leadership. | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
There are problems in the eurozone, sort out those problems, but get | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
growth going. You talk about growth and the importance for business to | :25:11. | :25:16. | |
start growing and developing. You pulled off an achievement at the | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
Labour Party Conference where you managed to unite the CBI, the | :25:19. | :25:23. | |
Federation of Small Business, the British Chambers of Commerce, Walid | :25:23. | :25:29. | |
-- all of them against your speech. I don't to greet the whole of | :25:29. | :25:31. | |
business was United against. The Engineering employers' Federation | :25:31. | :25:40. | |
came out in support. British Chambers of Commerce, talk of good | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
this is bad misses the point. Federation of Small Business, we | :25:44. | :25:50. | |
are disappointed at the Labour leader. The different reactions for, | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
it is true to say I said something quite important about the way the | :25:54. | :25:57. | |
economy needed to change and the way we needed to build long-term | :25:57. | :26:03. | |
wealth in this country. I will not apologise for saying that the | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
lessons of 2007/08, not just the immediacy of the banking crisis, | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
but the fact that wealth was not built on solid foundations, needs | :26:11. | :26:14. | |
to change all up our wanton promote businesses that will create lasting | :26:14. | :26:19. | |
well. It is the message I will keep talking about because British | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
people know we need big change in the economy, not just for the short | :26:23. | :26:28. | |
term, but in the way we build wealth. This week you appointed a | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
businessman to a key position within the Labour Party. He has a | :26:31. | :26:37. | |
history as a property tycoon and was seen as an asset stripper. | :26:37. | :26:43. | |
is not a predator. There is a specific pace -- case people have | :26:43. | :26:48. | |
talked about in relation to him. 3,500 people lost their pensions. | :26:48. | :26:53. | |
The regulator said there was not a case to answer. Minerva lost money | :26:53. | :27:00. | |
as a result of what happened. What I say is much more... Minerva would | :27:00. | :27:06. | |
be a producer rather than a predator? We need business people. | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
I get criticised for saying we are so reliant on the trade unions and | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
when business people support the Labour Party, people say, as they | :27:14. | :27:20. | |
try to pick holes. He is not a predator and he is somebody who | :27:20. | :27:25. | |
raised huge sums of money for the NSPCC. A great example of corporate | :27:25. | :27:32. | |
social responsibility. OK. You were saying that he wanted Cameron to be | :27:32. | :27:36. | |
in Brussels on Wednesday and not in Australia where the Commonwealth | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
summit is taking place. But the Commonwealth summit, they are | :27:40. | :27:45. | |
expecting to do �6 billion worth of new business. They will have a | :27:45. | :27:50. | |
chance to engage with India, emerging nations. 53 countries. It | :27:50. | :27:56. | |
is a modernising agenda, trying to turn the Commonwealth into a 21st | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
Century organisation and you just say, are pure. I definitely Stone | :27:59. | :28:06. | |
say that. I want him to get to the Commonwealth, but when there are | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
crucial decisions being made about jobs and growth in this country, | :28:10. | :28:16. | |
the idea that the prime minister can be here to have internal | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
squabbles on Monday, but can't be in Brussels on Wednesday to fight | :28:20. | :28:24. | |
for Britain's economic interests is the wrong choice. To attend the | :28:24. | :28:29. | |
eurozone summit, you have to pay to play. So if we join that summit, we | :28:29. | :28:34. | |
should contribute to the European financial stability? No. On the | :28:34. | :28:39. | |
vote tomorrow, surely the problem we have, the polls showed it | :28:39. | :28:43. | |
support for a referendum, we have a democratic deficit which was caused | :28:43. | :28:46. | |
by your government saying there will be a referendum on the | :28:47. | :28:50. | |
European constitution, then when that was junked by the people of | :28:50. | :28:54. | |
France and the Netherlands, it came back with a different name but it | :28:54. | :29:02. | |
was basically the identical treaty. Your government said no referendum. | :29:02. | :29:08. | |
On the first question you asked, I am very clear about the position on | :29:08. | :29:13. | |
this. The Prime Minister is making the wrong call. You don't have to | :29:13. | :29:18. | |
pay to play, as you say. Gordon Brown, at a very important summit | :29:18. | :29:24. | |
in 2008/09, was there as part of the key decisions and that is what | :29:24. | :29:27. | |
they are responsible prime minister should be doing. I will be at the | :29:27. | :29:32. | |
table, forcing Britain's issues onto the agenda. I don't accept | :29:32. | :29:37. | |
what you say about the constitution. In the future it is clear that if | :29:37. | :29:40. | |
there is major constitutional change that will affect Britain, | :29:40. | :29:44. | |
there would be a referendum and that is clear. But what I say is | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
that I don't agree with you that the issues we face in relation to | :29:48. | :29:52. | |
the unpopularity on Europe are to do what happened before the last | :29:52. | :29:56. | |
election. Some issues do reflect the way Europe has been doing its | :29:56. | :30:05. | |
On Libya, we saw Tony Blair and Gordon Brown embracing Gaddafi, | :30:06. | :30:09. | |
David Cameron overthrowing him. Are there congratulations for David | :30:09. | :30:14. | |
Cameron on his stance? Definitely, he took the right position and that | :30:14. | :30:19. | |
is why I supported him. I am proud the British Armed Forces supported | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
the Libyan people in controlling their destiny. | :30:22. | :30:28. | |
Ed Miliband, thank you. Later, unless you are feeling in | :30:28. | :30:33. | |
Scotland, two veterans of the Tory euro wars, Sir Malcolm Rifkind and | :30:33. | :30:38. | |
John Redwood debate tomorrow's vote. First, the Politics Show where you | :30:38. | :30:44. | |
are. Welcome to the London part of the | :30:44. | :30:48. | |
Politics Show. Coming up: Why is London the most difficult place in | :30:48. | :30:54. | |
the UK to adopt a child? First, facing big cuts to budget | :30:54. | :30:56. | |
spending, decisions by local authorities are under the | :30:56. | :31:01. | |
microscope, but it is not stopping many councils from forking out on | :31:01. | :31:06. | |
consultants. Is it money well spent and is it part of a wider agenda to | :31:06. | :31:10. | |
reduce the municipal workforce? In Conservative controlled Hammersmith | :31:10. | :31:15. | |
and Fulham, the practice has come under fire. | :31:15. | :31:19. | |
In town halls all across London, managers can be faced with tasks | :31:19. | :31:23. | |
they think their staff are not up to, but how can be at hand if they | :31:24. | :31:33. | |
are willing to spend a bit of money and call in... The consultants. The | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
government think councils need to take a little more care when it | :31:36. | :31:42. | |
comes to relying on the so-called Super heroes. There are some | :31:42. | :31:46. | |
circumstances where you need outside expertise you cannot get | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
within your mainstream workforce, technical issues, perhaps, but you | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
have to be cautious about it. The approach we adopted in government | :31:54. | :31:58. | |
is to cut back on the employment of consultants and other outside | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
contractor has unless it is really bringing in an expertise you could | :32:02. | :32:07. | |
not get in House. That should be the same across the board. | :32:07. | :32:11. | |
Politics Show has been passed this document, an audit of the way | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
Hammersmith and Fulham Council have used consultants. It looks at seven | :32:15. | :32:20. | |
of the many working at the local authority and found... No evidence | :32:20. | :32:24. | |
of any formal documented selection and recruitment process, no | :32:24. | :32:29. | |
evidence of any formal performance monitoring, no complete list of | :32:29. | :32:33. | |
that consulting company is being used by the council. Of seven | :32:33. | :32:36. | |
consultants used by the council which the report examined, an | :32:36. | :32:41. | |
agreement could only be found with one. We got a document from one | :32:41. | :32:46. | |
local authority in London where they had done an audit, they looked | :32:46. | :32:50. | |
at seven consultants and could only find a written agreement with one | :32:50. | :32:56. | |
out of those seven. Your reaction to that? That does not seem right. | :32:56. | :33:01. | |
Slackness is not forgivable in these circumstances. It has to be | :33:01. | :33:05. | |
proper documentation, that is the point of what we are doing. The | :33:05. | :33:08. | |
culture that the previous government allowed to flourish did | :33:08. | :33:13. | |
not pay much attention to this. the case of Hammersmith and Fulham | :33:13. | :33:17. | |
Times, responsible for housing in the council, the housing looked at | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
another four consultants and uncovered an agreement signed with | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
a dissolved company, and with another former employee who | :33:24. | :33:30. | |
provided services at �21,000 for 25 days' work, again with no written | :33:30. | :33:34. | |
agreement found. The opposition at the council but the overall cost at | :33:34. | :33:38. | |
million. It did not know how many consultants they were employed in, | :33:39. | :33:42. | |
how much they were paying them, they had no terms and conditions | :33:42. | :33:47. | |
all objectives, and they wasted between five and �12 million a year | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
in this manner. In one case, a written agreement between a | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
consultancy company and Hammersmith & Fulham Homes was found, but | :33:55. | :34:01. | |
neither party had signed it. says absolute in confidence -- | :34:01. | :34:04. | |
incompetence, doesn't it? It is what it says to the normal members | :34:04. | :34:09. | |
of the public to see what is going on and understand Government should | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
spend their money wisely. What this says is, for the bit we have | :34:13. | :34:19. | |
managed to see, there is ground level -- a grand level of | :34:19. | :34:21. | |
incompetence happening with the managing of public money in the | :34:21. | :34:25. | |
borough. The council say since receiving the report they have | :34:25. | :34:31. | |
acted on the recommendation. From Hammersmith and Fulham, | :34:32. | :34:38. | |
Councillor Greggs met, cabinet member there, joins me. Welcome. -- | :34:38. | :34:45. | |
Greg Smith. Do you admit this is embarrassing, with the chaos in the | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
procedures in how you employed consultants? We were the ones who | :34:49. | :34:53. | |
commissioned the report to look at some of the things people have been | :34:53. | :34:59. | |
saying in order to get the house in order in those particular areas. | :34:59. | :35:03. | |
What I have got to say is no one is more critical than ourselves on | :35:03. | :35:07. | |
ourselves and we always tried to be more efficient, to do things better. | :35:07. | :35:12. | |
We are the only council that has tried to reduce the burden on the | :35:12. | :35:17. | |
taxpayer, we reduced council tax four times in recent years, and we | :35:17. | :35:23. | |
share a cheap executive. Because it is you that asked people to come in | :35:23. | :35:27. | |
and look at the use of consultants, it can still be embarrassing? The | :35:28. | :35:35. | |
findings can provide you with Miller assurance on how you manage | :35:35. | :35:40. | |
the consultants -- male assurance. For a flagship council, bat is | :35:40. | :35:46. | |
embarrassing, isn't it? Let's look at the history on this. When we won | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
Hammersmith and Fulham council in 2006, we asked, how many | :35:50. | :35:55. | |
consultants are employed by the council? Have not got a clue. We | :35:55. | :35:59. | |
got a grip, we are the ones that implemented a programme where we | :35:59. | :36:02. | |
froze recruitment and any department that wanted to employ | :36:02. | :36:08. | |
anyone at all, from a cleaner to a senior member of staff, had to | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
justify why that recruitment process should star it. Did you | :36:11. | :36:14. | |
take your eye off the ball and failed to do the same due diligence | :36:14. | :36:19. | |
with consultants? We commissioned this report from Deloitte, who have | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
come back with recommendations, all of which we implement it. Were you | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
surprised that the severity of the findings, that there were not | :36:27. | :36:32. | |
documented records of agreements with consultants? We are turning | :36:32. | :36:38. | |
round a council that, for decades, went a certain way. As I have said, | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
there was no clue how many consultants there were in the | :36:41. | :36:48. | |
council. I can tell you now there are 73. You had reduced the number? | :36:48. | :36:55. | |
Absolutely. But still failed to... You accept procedures are not | :36:55. | :36:59. | |
ideal? When you have a consultant filling a temporary position, there | :36:59. | :37:04. | |
are no details about the contract, no sign whether it was put out to | :37:04. | :37:08. | |
fair competition. We have high standards of recruiting people and | :37:08. | :37:14. | |
I am confident every single person, or whether a consultant or coming | :37:14. | :37:19. | |
in on contract to teach kids music or sport, has gone through the most | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
rigorous of processes. What the Deloitte report showed was that | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
there were things we need to do differently and better, and we have | :37:25. | :37:30. | |
done every one of them are. What is the average daily rate of a | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
consultant that you pay? Consultants are from photographers | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
that take a couple of photos at events all the way up to... Have | :37:37. | :37:43. | |
you got an average? It would be unfair to say an average rate, | :37:43. | :37:47. | |
because the word is pretty meaningless when some people are | :37:47. | :37:50. | |
brought in literally as suppliers, but because the rules say they have | :37:50. | :37:55. | |
to be paid in a certain way, reports can look at them as if they | :37:55. | :38:00. | |
are consultants. One thing struck me, a former employee left and then | :38:00. | :38:06. | |
was paid �21,000 for 25 days' work. Were they on that rate when they | :38:06. | :38:09. | |
were a member of staff, or on leaving have they upped their pay | :38:09. | :38:15. | |
rate? There is nothing unusual in people, having full-time paid | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
employment some might, moving away, retiring, coming back and then | :38:19. | :38:23. | |
helping with something they have a key specialism in as a consultant. | :38:23. | :38:29. | |
In terms of money, that member of staff, and other members of staff, | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
when they come back are they paid more than when they were staff | :38:32. | :38:38. | |
members? Not necessarily, some well, some went, but we are a value for | :38:38. | :38:43. | |
money council and one person being focused on quite a lot as a | :38:43. | :38:49. | |
consultant has been -- has saved Hammersmith & Fulham Homes �6 | :38:49. | :38:53. | |
million in running costs for the organisation. That is value for | :38:53. | :38:58. | |
money. Where there any other dissolved companies, we heard about | :38:58. | :39:05. | |
one, were their overs you paid money to for consultants? -- were | :39:05. | :39:09. | |
there any others? That company was trading under the same name, | :39:09. | :39:12. | |
changed company number and there was a clerical error that the wrong | :39:13. | :39:16. | |
number was put in, which was put right, but it is nothing more than | :39:16. | :39:20. | |
a clerical error from somebody who puts the numbers into a machine. | :39:20. | :39:25. | |
One thing is how much you paid to consultants with whom there was no | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
written agreement, in other words how did the people of Hammersmith | :39:29. | :39:33. | |
and Fulham know the money was well spent? How much had been paid for | :39:33. | :39:39. | |
which there is no paper trail, that is surely of concern? I am sure | :39:39. | :39:43. | |
there are paper trails out there, but that they are in a central | :39:43. | :39:47. | |
register, which to Lloyd said we needed, and have now implemented, | :39:47. | :39:52. | |
is another matter -- which Deloitte said we needed. We are currently | :39:52. | :39:57. | |
paying about �1.3 million to what you are calling consultants, but | :39:57. | :40:02. | |
many of whom are, for example one person is contracted to do Movement | :40:02. | :40:06. | |
therapy sessions in a special school, not a consultant that takes | :40:06. | :40:12. | |
you on a journey. Do you think, is the intention in the end that the | :40:12. | :40:17. | |
use of consultants is to reduce the direct workforce, it paid pensions | :40:17. | :40:24. | |
and so on? We are about value for money, we have reduced 1,500 staff | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
from the council since 2006, but from time to time you need to bring | :40:28. | :40:33. | |
in someone with a specialism. Doesn't they show what can go wrong, | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
and you do not have procedures in place to ensure value for money | :40:36. | :40:41. | |
when you take on consultants in this way? We have corrected the | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
procedural points, but one consultant saved �6 million in | :40:45. | :40:50. | |
running costs for Hammersmith and Fulham homes, got us to the second | :40:50. | :40:54. | |
lowest leaseholder charges in all of London. Consultants coming in | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
with great specialisms, great experience, help us to save money, | :40:57. | :41:04. | |
and that is what we are looking to did. Thank you for commit in. | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
We have national adoption Week coming up, but our London councils | :41:08. | :41:12. | |
putting up too many barriers to adoption? The capital lags behind | :41:13. | :41:19. | |
other parts of the country, just 7% of children were adopted last year | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
compared to nationally 11%. But some local authorities are finding | :41:22. | :41:27. | |
ways to improved the rate. For George and Mary, adopting their | :41:27. | :41:31. | |
son was like changing, but as they found out when they went to their | :41:31. | :41:34. | |
local council, not as straightforward as they had. They | :41:34. | :41:40. | |
were very, very busy at that time, and Mauroy less we had a five or 10 | :41:40. | :41:45. | |
minute conversation on the found and they said, we cannot help you | :41:45. | :41:49. | |
at this time because we are so busy, but can you call back in six | :41:49. | :41:54. | |
months? When they were contacted by a children's charity, things | :41:54. | :41:59. | |
started to changed. In the first meeting with the charity, they were | :41:59. | :42:06. | |
pretty honest, relaying they thought it would be difficult to | :42:06. | :42:10. | |
match us, in particular at that time there was more emphasis in | :42:10. | :42:15. | |
terms of getting ethnicity correct, and a Greek-Cypriot background with | :42:15. | :42:21. | |
a finish background was a difficult makes to find an appropriate | :42:21. | :42:27. | |
placement. A year later, they said, times have changed, we do now think | :42:27. | :42:31. | |
there is a chance we could match you, and we would like you to talk | :42:31. | :42:36. | |
to was again. While they did adopt in London, the charity works with | :42:36. | :42:41. | |
parents across the country, matching parents to suitability and | :42:41. | :42:45. | |
not location. Since 2006, they have worked with Harrow council who have | :42:45. | :42:51. | |
gone on to see the best adoption rates in the country. We have a 22% | :42:51. | :42:55. | |
success rate for children being adopted. When children come into | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
care, especially young children who we think would benefit from being | :42:59. | :43:03. | |
adopted, the charity is there, they have adoptive parents ready, said | :43:03. | :43:08. | |
the child does not have to sit around. They go from birth parents | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
to the family without too many changes, so it is best for the | :43:11. | :43:16. | |
child. But across the board there are barriers which prevent children | :43:16. | :43:21. | |
from finding permanent homes. Everyone I have spoken to who is | :43:21. | :43:26. | |
involved in the adoption process say it takes far too long. In our | :43:26. | :43:31. | |
case, the legal system could have allowed us potentially to have | :43:31. | :43:35. | |
adopted our young boy at least several months earlier if it had | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
been streamlined. For families looking to adopt, change looks like | :43:39. | :43:44. | |
it might be on the horizon. With increased government support, as | :43:44. | :43:48. | |
David Cameron out like in his speech. How can we have let this | :43:48. | :43:53. | |
happen? We have people flying all over the world to adopt babies | :43:53. | :43:57. | |
while the care system at home agonises about placing black | :43:57. | :44:02. | |
children with white families. With the right values and effort, let us | :44:02. | :44:06. | |
be the ones who end this scandal and help the most vulnerable | :44:06. | :44:12. | |
children of all. Strong words, but with such -- but will it result in | :44:12. | :44:17. | |
any change for London's families? The former head of Barnardo's is | :44:17. | :44:22. | |
here, now a ministerial adviser on adoption. Where do you think the | :44:22. | :44:26. | |
problem lies in the capital? That was a very good film, and Harrow | :44:26. | :44:32. | |
are leading the way not just in the capital but in England in terms of | :44:32. | :44:36. | |
seizing adoption, taking it seriously, managing it with an | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
urgency. But they are being grown- up enough to bring in an | :44:40. | :44:47. | |
organisation to help them. If everyone else in England, not just | :44:47. | :44:52. | |
in London, gripped adoption the way Harrow has done, the numbers would | :44:52. | :44:58. | |
probably dog all. So they are exemplar, and if they are, a number | :44:58. | :45:04. | |
of London authorities may not be doing it the way you would like it | :45:04. | :45:09. | |
to be done? It is very mixed. My sense is all authorities in London | :45:09. | :45:14. | |
are waking up to the challenge, but from my point of view, someone who | :45:14. | :45:18. | |
wants adoptions to grow, seeing the conference speech and the Prime | :45:18. | :45:21. | |
Minister putting his personal authority behind adoption was | :45:21. | :45:24. | |
terrific, and a sense in the capital and elsewhere a real | :45:24. | :45:29. | |
movement. But there is a lot to be done. We have to feel adoptions, | :45:29. | :45:35. | |
too many children in care, not all can be adopted, but many of them, | :45:35. | :45:40. | |
and we have too many parents being turned away and discouraged, failed | :45:40. | :45:50. | |
:45:50. | :45:50. | ||
by an assessment process I do not Do you realise -- recognise it is | :45:50. | :45:55. | |
more difficult in London? Why is it happening? I would not say London | :45:55. | :46:02. | |
is worse than under -- other parts of the country. I do hear more | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
often than I would like to anecdotes about parents being | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
turned away from London boroughs because their ethnicity doesn't | :46:09. | :46:15. | |
match. The government has made it very, very clear... His there an | :46:15. | :46:20. | |
immediate adherence to that code? Are you seeing local authorities | :46:20. | :46:25. | |
for not insisting on this restriction? No. We have some way | :46:25. | :46:31. | |
to go yet and that guidance may over time need to be reinforced and | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
indeed the government may have to decide whether or not to legislate. | :46:35. | :46:40. | |
Is it having an effect? A limited effect. We are a multicultural | :46:40. | :46:45. | |
society. In all other walks of life we have concluded, rightly, that | :46:45. | :46:50. | |
colour doesn't matter. But in London and the rest of England, a | :46:50. | :46:54. | |
black child is three times less likely to be a doctor than a white | :46:54. | :47:02. | |
child. I think that is a scandal. - - likely to be adopted. Do you | :47:02. | :47:08. | |
think the guidelines... Do you think we will legislate? I think | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
the guidelines, we were right to start with guidelines, and the | :47:12. | :47:17. | |
leadership we see from the children's minister, Michael Gove, | :47:17. | :47:21. | |
and the Prime Minister, is making a difference. But my advice to | :47:21. | :47:25. | |
ministers, if this time next year I have not seen a change in practice, | :47:25. | :47:30. | |
my advice will be they probably need to legislate. Can I ask you | :47:30. | :47:33. | |
something that has been raised to ask? Does the economy affect the | :47:33. | :47:38. | |
number of people coming forward for adoptions? It has been said to me | :47:38. | :47:43. | |
that that is the case, but I think there are other things we can do to | :47:43. | :47:47. | |
counterbalance that. I want people to be told the truth about adoption, | :47:47. | :47:52. | |
adoption can be very, very challenging. But adoption can be a | :47:52. | :47:56. | |
joy. Sometimes the information people get from local authorities | :47:56. | :48:01. | |
when they first applied can be unduly negative. Are too many | :48:01. | :48:07. | |
people being placed with family friends? If those placements end up | :48:07. | :48:12. | |
breaking down, it delays the age at which the adoption... There is not | :48:12. | :48:17. | |
a simple answer. Sometimes family and friends are the best place and | :48:17. | :48:22. | |
the best example his grandparents, who do a fantastic job in caring | :48:22. | :48:26. | |
for their grandchildren. But there is evidence that sometimes we are | :48:26. | :48:29. | |
compromising on what is best for the child by putting them with an | :48:29. | :48:33. | |
uncle or aunt when the best thing would be adoption. Do you think | :48:33. | :48:39. | |
that balance is not right? We don't know yet. Tim Loughton has just | :48:39. | :48:43. | |
commissioned research into the breakdown of what he called a | :48:43. | :48:47. | |
special guardianship orders where somebody goes to a relative. I am | :48:47. | :48:51. | |
worried that sometimes we take the easy route and not the best route. | :48:51. | :48:57. | |
Was that research in London? Across England. Do you think they could be | :48:57. | :49:01. | |
a rush to too much reliance on friends and family? I want to be | :49:01. | :49:06. | |
very careful because I have seen so many circumstances where it is the | :49:06. | :49:09. | |
very, very best thing and I don't want to suggest a grandparent that | :49:09. | :49:13. | |
they can't be great carers. But sometimes social workers whisper to | :49:13. | :49:18. | |
me that in some of those cases, a compromise is made and the best | :49:18. | :49:22. | |
thing for a child would be a permanent adoption. The length of | :49:22. | :49:27. | |
time it seems to take, whether it is decision-making or the courts, | :49:27. | :49:32. | |
there are lot of children at over four or five, the longer it takes | :49:32. | :49:37. | |
the long -- less likely they are to be adopted. There are children | :49:37. | :49:40. | |
under four waiting for adoption. Children grow old waiting for | :49:40. | :49:47. | |
adoption. A becomes less likely -- it becomes less likely that they | :49:47. | :49:51. | |
will become looked after. It takes two-and-a-half years to achieve an | :49:51. | :50:00. | |
adoption. You have a child of 12 months, much less of a challenge in | :50:00. | :50:02. | |
terms of a successful adoption can and that child is three years old | :50:02. | :50:07. | |
or more before they are adopted. The earlier they are adopted, the | :50:07. | :50:13. | |
more successful that adoption is likely to be. A year from now, how | :50:13. | :50:17. | |
will you know whether you have been successful? The number of children | :50:17. | :50:21. | |
cleared for adoption will have shown a significant increase. I am | :50:21. | :50:25. | |
now confident it will have done. You can do that in the year? I am | :50:26. | :50:33. | |
confident it is happening now. will hold you to it! I cue. With | :50:33. | :50:43. | |
:50:43. | :50:45. | ||
Now, I don't know if you've noticed, but everything's been feeling a bit | :50:45. | :50:49. | |
early '90s lately. Economic hard times, The Stone Roses going back | :50:49. | :50:52. | |
out on the road and tomorrow, a Tory rebellion on Europe of the | :50:52. | :50:55. | |
sort we haven't seen since those happy days of the Maastricht treaty. | :50:55. | :50:59. | |
So who better to make the case for and against tomorrow's motion on a | :50:59. | :51:01. | |
referendum on the UK's relationship with Europe than two veterans of | :51:01. | :51:08. | |
the Major cabinet - Tory MPs Sir Malcolm Rikfind and John Redwood. | :51:08. | :51:14. | |
Easy questions first. John Redwood, make the case for. The public wish | :51:14. | :51:18. | |
for this is overwhelming. Remember how they started. The Prime | :51:18. | :51:21. | |
Minister said we will have petitions on the Number Ten website | :51:21. | :51:27. | |
for things people are interested in. The public said we want a debate on | :51:27. | :51:31. | |
this. The backbench committee said let's do just that. I would urge | :51:31. | :51:36. | |
colleagues to have a good, sensible debate, no recriminations, but get | :51:36. | :51:39. | |
to grips with the issues and then vote for a referendum because that | :51:39. | :51:44. | |
is what the majority of the people want. Sir Malcolm Rifkind, why is | :51:44. | :51:48. | |
he wrong? Whatever level of enthusiasm you have for the EU, it | :51:48. | :51:53. | |
is the wrong motion and the wrong time and the wrong subject. The | :51:53. | :51:59. | |
eurozone is in total crisis. If that goes wrong, it is Britain's | :51:59. | :52:04. | |
drama as well as the rest of Europe. For us to be involved in in would | :52:04. | :52:08. | |
navel-gazing at the moment on a matter that will not happen, there | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
will not be a referendum, is a massive distraction from the | :52:11. | :52:15. | |
serious issues the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of dealing with. | :52:15. | :52:22. | |
If it wants to be passed, seriously reduce his authority and the | :52:22. | :52:25. | |
division it shows in the governing party is not helpful to Britain or | :52:25. | :52:29. | |
the government. I don't see it like that. There is this huge public | :52:29. | :52:34. | |
yearning. The very popular part of the motion with the public and MPs | :52:34. | :52:38. | |
is the Third Way, the wish to negotiate a relationship for | :52:38. | :52:43. | |
Britain based on trade and co- operation. This is a modern notion. | :52:43. | :52:48. | |
We know the world has moved on. We are now facing, immediately, the | :52:48. | :52:53. | |
possibility of a much strengthened European government for the 17 in | :52:53. | :52:56. | |
the euro. That is a different problem for Britain from the old | :52:56. | :53:04. | |
European Union. What about the point of Malcolm Rifkind? It can't | :53:04. | :53:08. | |
possibly be a distraction, it is at the centre of the modern debate. We | :53:08. | :53:13. | |
are saying to Europe, if you wish to go ahead, we will not stand in | :53:13. | :53:17. | |
your way because we are decent and understand the problems. It is a | :53:18. | :53:22. | |
mess. But Britain need a different relationship. If they go ahead with | :53:22. | :53:26. | |
that, that is not a European Union in which we are a strong | :53:26. | :53:30. | |
negotiating member. We need a different relationship. John said | :53:31. | :53:36. | |
the attractive thing are three options, in, out or in any | :53:36. | :53:40. | |
negotiation based on trade and co- operation. That is ingenuous, as is | :53:40. | :53:45. | |
the motion. That third option is what Norway and Switzerland have. | :53:45. | :53:49. | |
That is leaving the European option -- Union. I do believe there needs | :53:49. | :53:54. | |
to be diversity in the EU. When the eurozone of it actually comes | :53:54. | :53:58. | |
forward asking the European Union as a whole for new powers for those | :53:58. | :54:03. | |
members who want to do it further, that is when we have negotiations. | :54:03. | :54:07. | |
That is when Britain says, if you want to have that, fine, but | :54:07. | :54:11. | |
Britain and others who don't, we have to have an equal right to | :54:11. | :54:14. | |
repatriate certain parts. At the end of that negotiation, that is | :54:14. | :54:19. | |
when you have a referendum. This is happening now. I'm sure Malcolm | :54:19. | :54:23. | |
must have read some of these documents. The European six-pack | :54:23. | :54:26. | |
for strengthening economic government. President arose so it | :54:26. | :54:30. | |
made a powerful speech said a lot of this had to apply to Britain as | :54:30. | :54:34. | |
well as the 17 euro members. There will be a call for much stronger | :54:34. | :54:39. | |
surveillance of the banking system, a call for a new financial services | :54:39. | :54:42. | |
tax to be imposed on Britain as well as the 17. This is the reality. | :54:42. | :54:48. | |
Of course I want our government to be engaged reactively, but we | :54:48. | :54:54. | |
need... John sounds sweet, but it is nonsense, forgive me. The | :54:54. | :54:57. | |
discussion tomorrow is not about whether they should be a debate | :54:57. | :55:01. | |
about Europe and whether there are options to be taken forward, it is | :55:01. | :55:05. | |
whether at this moment, with all the crisis going on, we should have | :55:05. | :55:10. | |
a referendum in the UK Sailing does Britain want to leave the you? The | :55:10. | :55:14. | |
idea that that would not be massively destabilising, seriously | :55:14. | :55:17. | |
eroded Government's authority, as well as make Britain look a | :55:17. | :55:21. | |
laughing stock when the real crisis facing Europe is the future of the | :55:21. | :55:24. | |
eurozone and how we prevent a prevent -- a repeat of the Labour | :55:24. | :55:31. | |
disaster. Don't you worry that you were out of tune with your party on | :55:31. | :55:34. | |
this? John Redwood is closer to the heartbeat of the Conservative Party | :55:34. | :55:40. | |
on this issue that new? No, there his head and heart. I am strongly | :55:40. | :55:47. | |
against the single currency. did you are sure eyebrows? I don't | :55:47. | :55:50. | |
remember you writing or speaking strongly about how the euro would | :55:50. | :55:53. | |
go wrong in the way I did. When I was Foreign Secretary I had a | :55:54. | :55:57. | |
public spat with Ken Clarke as Chancellor because I said as | :55:57. | :56:01. | |
Foreign Secretary the Cabinet is against joining the single currency. | :56:01. | :56:07. | |
We had a great drama that day. Delighted. But the Cabinet wouldn't | :56:07. | :56:11. | |
rule out joining the euro, which was why I resigned. My personal | :56:12. | :56:16. | |
view is not that important. The crucial point is the vast majority | :56:16. | :56:20. | |
of the Conservative Party have various degrees of Euro-scepticism. | :56:20. | :56:24. | |
The issue is not that. It is whether this is the right moment, | :56:24. | :56:30. | |
with Europe in high drama on the eurozone issue, to be having this | :56:30. | :56:33. | |
self-indulgent exercise as to whether a non-existent referendum | :56:33. | :56:39. | |
should be held. How has this been handled by Number Ten? I would urge | :56:39. | :56:44. | |
them to conduct it in a good spirit on Monday. This is something the | :56:44. | :56:49. | |
public is taking four. So don't have a three-line whip? | :56:49. | :56:52. | |
government is clearly going to defeat the motion overwhelmingly | :56:52. | :56:55. | |
because Labour and the Lib Dems have whipped their members and most | :56:55. | :56:59. | |
of them will want to vote against the motion. The issue is not in | :56:59. | :57:04. | |
doubt. Nick Clegg says you are tilting at windmills on this. Don | :57:04. | :57:09. | |
Quixote Redwood. I disagree with Mr Clegg. What I am others are trying | :57:09. | :57:14. | |
to do, this is not my motion, it is a result of public enthusiasm, but | :57:14. | :57:17. | |
I am trying to do is get the government to seriously engage with | :57:17. | :57:24. | |
this issue. We need to negotiate now because now is the crisis and | :57:24. | :57:27. | |
the opportunity. Now we would be very constructive if Britain was | :57:27. | :57:31. | |
less engaged because it is one less problem for the others when they | :57:31. | :57:35. | |
are in a burning building. The last thing we want to do is trust | :57:35. | :57:40. | |
ourselves in the building. A final thought. I do feel like I am | :57:40. | :57:46. | |
reliving the 1990s, enjoying it as I am speaking to you both! Won't | :57:46. | :57:49. | |
this remind people of the Conservative Party of the 1990s | :57:49. | :57:56. | |
where you were all falling out? That would be the Labour spin. The | :57:56. | :58:01. | |
real debate is one required by the public about the issues now. | :58:01. | :58:05. | |
People's budgets are suffering now, the economy is in trouble, partly | :58:05. | :58:09. | |
because of European issues. final word from you, is this | :58:09. | :58:15. | |
damaging? Europe is a real issue, the Conservative Party is 19 absent | :58:15. | :58:19. | |
Eurosceptic. The question for tomorrow is this sensible, to start | :58:19. | :58:24. | |
trying to force a referendum at this moment in our history? Rather | :58:24. | :58:29. | |
than concentrating, as John was coming round to saying, just | :58:29. | :58:31. |