16/10/2011 The Politics Show North West

Here... New political constituencies, but why are so many

MPs opposing the new map? And more than two decades after the

Hillsborough football disaster, the debate of release -- the debate of

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1485 seconds

Welcome to the Politics Show in the North West. I am Annabel Tiffin.

Coming up... Redrawing the region's political

map. Meet the winners and losers in the latest parliamentary party game.

We will come walk the streets, get a real feel for the community and

she would not contemplate the proposals you have.

And the people's debate. How campaigners are getting the Commons

to discuss the Hillsborough disaster.

It has been likened to a game of musical chairs, but few of our MPs

want to play. The Government has decided the country's political map

needs to be redrawn, meaning there will be fewer MPs and larger

constituencies. Officials from the Boundary Commission of England have

come up of a plan, starting the consultation process this week in

Manchester. Politicians are always jostling for

position at Westminster, but the Boundary Commission could create

new battle lines in the North West. This week saw the first public

hearings to gauge reaction to shift the constituency boundaries. Some

have twice the population of others. The Government wanted to set a

standard size of around 76,000 voters. The response is plans that

could have consequences for every party. We always knew this scale

would be huge. Even without the tight restriction on size, once you

start reducing constituencies by 10%, you will get a lot of changes.

The 72 current constituencies will be condensed into 66, bringing some

surprising changes. You might have thought that Leigh Town Hall would

be in Leigh. Under these proposals, it would be part of Westhoughton.

You might have heard that much of the BBC is moving to Salford Quays,

but this would be in the Manchester Central constituency.

Victoria Connett's campaign to save the Salford & Eccles constituency

has attracted 60,000 supporters on Facebook. The area has been here

since 9,500 they say. Longer than Manchester. We got the first MP in

1872 and fought for that. It is important to have our: In P. Rivals

claim that Labour holds an advantage. -- have our one MP.

means that Labour can need fewer votes than other parties.

Boundary Commission in London have got a map and decided to cut it

into convenient portions and I would say to them to walk the

streets, get a real feel for the community and you would not

contemplate those proposals. While boundaries change, so will some

names. George Osborne's Tatton seat will be abolished. The Northwich

seat will contain many of the same wards. His colleague in Weaver Vale

could lose his seat altogether. is the right thing. The coalition

Government is committed to cutting the cost of politics, by reducing

constituencies. That is part of that process. The commission says

it is open to suggestions. We would encourage people to look at how

this works and if they can propose something better, one that works,

we would look at it. The final proposals will be handed to

Government in 2013 and need to be voted on by the Commons before the

political map can be redrawn. Among those asking the Boundary

Commission to think again was Andy Burnham -- Andy Burnham, the Labour

MP for Leigh. Much of that town centre would no longer be in his

constituency under the plans. He is now leading a campaign called Keep

Leigh in Leigh and I asked him to explain his objections.

The proposals rip the heart out of Leigh, making the town hall in West

Horton. I have been giving voice to the real anger felt by Leigh people.

It has had many attacks on its identity down the decades. We are

not accepting it this time. Is your real objection that Labour has

always had an advantage in smaller constituencies? This is not party

politics, but about communities and their ability to be heard in

Parliament. Jiminez keys like Leigh had been broken up. It is like it

does not exist. -- communities like Leigh. That is not acceptable. It

is not about party politics. The Conservatives, Liberal Democrats

and Labour have all made the same arguments to the Boundary

Commission that Leigh should be left alone and others in Greater

Manchester sued. The party's coming together is a powerful

demonstration that this goes above party politics and it is about

people's representation. The why did Ed Miliband not that the

Conservatives would gerrymandering over these proposals? We have

serious concerns over what the Government is doing by reducing

constituencies in this way. It is likely that it is going to have a

serious effect on constituencies in Labour areas. That much is clear.

In this specific example, the number of seats cannot be reduced

without causing disruption. We are making a local, regional argument

to the Boundary Commission. We have accepted the number of

constituencies will need to be reduced. But within that, it is

still possible to reduce constituencies without such

previous disruption to community ties. What are the other options?

We have put an option to the Boundary Commission, and with that

option, you can avoid disruptive domino effect going right across

Greater Manchester. The Boundary Commission can then keep lots are

communities together and that will be a common sense move that would,

I am sure, have support. Who do you blame for these changes? The

coalition or asking for them or the Boundary Commission? The argument

has been lost in Parliament, because Parliament has endorsed the

reduction of the constituencies, the decision made by the Boundary

Commission. I do not think the Boundary Commission have made a

good decision. This kind of destruction could have been avoided

to establish communities. As we had seen, it is not just Leigh, but

Salford being taken off the map. This really is not acceptable. The

Government says it is all about localism, then do this. From London,

the impose these changes on regions with pride identities. Leigh should

not plead for its identity, given that we have been forced to do that,

we hope we will now listen to 3,000 angry voices.

To discuss that, I am joined in the studio by Professor David Denver

from Lancaster University, an expert on elections and voting.

What you make of the commission's proposals? Andy Burnham says that

is ripping the heart out of communities. The Boundary

Commission has to make changes anyway, because of the movements of

population. In this case, it is big changes because of the reduction in

seats. On this occasion, they have got to get seats more equal, making

the system fairer and more equal in size. That is difficult. That is if

you are also trying to balance community and local Government

boundaries and things like that. It is a tough job. Let us the clear,

these are only initial proposals. If past experience is anything to

go by, the Boundary Commission will listen to people at these local

consultation and we will get a set of revised proposals, which might

not suit everyone. But if experience is anything to go by,

there will be changes and that might satisfy some of the

complaints that have been made in those reports. What you make of the

argument Ed Miliband and Labour are making, that this is all a

political move to take away their advantage that Labour supposedly

has had in smaller constituencies? There is no doubt that Labour has

had an advantage. It is very rare for any Government to make any

change to the electoral system that is going to disadvantage them. The

Government is not going to disadvantage itself. At the same

time, there is the argument, it is a matter of fairness. Whether in

the North West, there are constituencies ranging from about

50,000-80,000. That means the votes of people in smaller constituencies

are worth more than in the big constituencies. That is not fair. I

am quite strongly in favour of the equalisation being attempted.

difference did you think it will make to the political map of the

North West? I have not done detailed analysis, but there is an

analysis that exists on the internet suggesting that, all but

the big North West region, going right up to the North wet -- going

right up to the Scottish borders, all of the parties could lose two

seats, so there is no distinctive advantage to the Conservatives.

you think of voters care? Some voters obviously do. We have heard

about signatures and the rest of it. My own view is that it is a small

minority, especially in big cities. In big cities, I think people, the

city is cut up into slices and I do not think people worry about which

lies they are in. Thank you very much for joining us.

Night to catch up on some other political news.

The GMB union says 6,000 jobs are being lost in the region's public

sector every month. Manchester City Council is the second worst hit

authority in the country, losing over 2,500 jobs, almost 15% of the

work force. The parents of the murdered

Lancaster -- Lancashire nurse Jane Clough say they are feeling

positive after a meeting with Government officials over changes

to bail laws. Jonathan Vass was out on bail when he stabbed Jane

outside Blackpool Victoria Hospital last year.

Paul Maynard, the Conservative MP for Blackpool North and Cleveleys,

says he was abused by a businesswoman because of his

disability. He has cerebral palsy which led to him losing his balance

while on a bus. I was told I could not be on a bus because I could not

stand up straight. I could not believe that, because I have as

much right to be on the bus to -- as she does. It is called public

transport. And the Isle of Man has Anuj chief

Minister. Alan Bell has been elected by the parliament and will

succeed Tony Brown. Sometimes, the Commons is accused

of being out of touch. But on Monday for the first time MPs will

debate a subject because enough people have demanded it. Over

140,000 have signed an online petition asking for a discussion on

the least of documents related to the Hillsborough football disaster

of 1989. But what can it achieve? Liverpool has mourned the debts at

Hillsborough for more than two decades. Thousands remember the 96

who died every year. The passage of time has done little to heal the

pain and answer questions. Why did my son, who paid on a football

ticket, did everything right that day, went to a football match and

came home in a coffin? Margaret's son James was 18 at his first away

match. Someone asked me if I thought I would get victory. That

is not a word I would use. There is no victory in Hillsborough, week

will always be the losers. But we will hopefully see we have peace in

our rides, comfort, Andy Comfort being that the real truth has come

out. Crucial to this entire case is the release of cabinet documents.

- and they come but being. The BBC has requested under the Freedom of

Information Act. It was initially granted, but the cabinet office has

appealed against the decision. There were claims that Margaret

Thatcher did not want the police blamed for the incident. What we

wanted to do with this freedom of Information request was to see if

there were any documents shedding light on the actions of the

Thatcher Government as to what happened. The information

commissioner who has seen the document says they do contain

specific information which would add to public knowledge and

understanding as to what happened. So over a bowl see the documents

being kept secret? The Government wants an independent panel set up

in 2009 to decide what should be published. -- so who will see.

want to make sure all that information goes to the families,

so that they can absorb up and read it. The Hillsborough Justice

Campaign want to see all of the documents, not just those selected

by the panel. We are sure report will be produced, which would be

quite rigorous, but it is still second hand to those people who

experienced the disaster. So it takes a tremendous leap of faith.

You are expected to trust, picture Trust and others. Put your trust in

the establishment figures, when it is this that has meant that has led

people dying. Or 22 years, people in this city have been suspicious -

- suspicious of a cover up. -- when it is that establishment that has

been lying. This could be democracy dictating the agenda. Without the

support, families would have collapsed a long time ago. When we

go to a memorial service, and see all those people there, 22 years,

seeing all those people they remembering their fellow supporters.

That is a credit to them and a lovely thing for the 96 who died.

The e-petition is a new idea at this early stage and it is

difficult to say what its impact will be. For those affected by

Hillsborough, the whole pays it will bring closure.

I am joined by Maria Eagle, the Labour MP for Garston & Halewood,

who is also an established campaigner on Hillsborough. The

debate for MPs, I am wondering what the point is? There is a lot of

passion surrounding the subject, but you already have an independent

panel, why do MPs need to debate this? The important thing about the

debate tomorrow is that MPs and Parliament has a chance to vote to

say all of these documents should be put into the public domain. That

will strengthen a hand of The Independent Panel, when they are

negotiating with the Government about what should be published. As

parliamentarians, we should support the families and be seen to do so

and Monday's that it lets us do that. Is there any question that

the panel will not get all the documentation? There seems to be

evidencing the I getting what they need. The will get the documents,

but there is an issue about what can be published. Andy Burnham and

died in Government called on the 20 anniversary of the publication of

everything that remained about this disaster. -- Andy Burnham and

myself. The families need to know. There is no indication to see it

will not all be released. There is. There will be negotiation between

The Independent Panel and civil servants in Whitehall and there are

all kinds of conventions that would stop Documentation like cabinet

minutes and other documents from being published. Don't you have to

put your faith in The Independent Panel? Labour set that are. Let

them make the decision rather than putting pressure on releasing them.

This is supportive of The Independent Panel, strengthening

their hand in negotiations that will take place with the Government.

I have faith in the panel, led by the Bishop of Liverpool, who

understands the trauma still felt in the city. He will want to

publish everything. If you look at the terms of reference, at the

history of this matter, there has been pressure over the years not to

do that. But the Government has said they are going to two. What we

want to do is make clear as parliamentarians that's Parliament

supports the publishing of everything, strengthen our hands of

The Independent Panel about what should be published. We fear that

there will still be civil servants who will try to stop these

documents been published and we want to give her departure to The

Independent panel in their arguments. Labour set up The

Independent Panel after the 20th anniversary. Why wasn't anything

done before that? Labour were in power for 12 years even before the

anniversary. Why was nothing set up before? A lot of things were done.

If you followed the history of this. When we got into office, we set up

under Jack Straw a review of the evidence led by Lord Justice Stuart

Smith. When that was published in 1998, it enabled a lot of

documentation that had been hidden to be put into the House of Commons

library, showing things that were not knowing, particularly South

Yorkshire Police's attempt to cover up and full Lord Justice Taylor

about what had gone on. It shows the history of the Establishment

trying to smear the families and those who were fans on the day,

which has led to this many years of frustration and suspicion. It is

only by putting everything that remains into the public domain that

we can say to the families, there it is, there is nothing else. That

is what Parliament tomorrow will be voting, I hope, to support. Thank

you very much. I know it is an issue close to a lot of people's

arts in this region. Thank you for joining us. -- People's hearts in