13/11/2011 The Politics Show Northern Ireland

In Northern Ireland remembering our more recent past, can we ever agree

on a single memorial to the Troubles?

And when it comes to Europe, can our MEPs do anything to protect us

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1884 seconds

from the impact of the economic Welcome to the Politics Show in

Northern Ireland. We have a European flavour to our programme

this week as the volatility of far off financial markets has

threatened livelihoods closer to home. We are paying a lot to

Brussels in agricultural fines. We will also be asking if there is

anything we can gain the broader sweep of European history.

This is the memorial to the murdered Jews of Europe, it stands

in the centre of Berlin's. In its design and construction it proved

controversial, but since it has opened it has attracted millions of

visitors. Are there lessons that can be learnt from Germany and how

it has dealt with its difficult This week in Greece and Italy we

have had the resignation of political leaders. Casualties of a

banking crisis which is threatening economic stability. I am joined by

the Austrian minister MEP Jim Nicholsons. Where has it all gone

wrong? -- the Ulster Unionist MEP. It went wrong at two years ago when

you's response to the problem has always been too little, too late.

The decision making process is long drawn-out. Ministers have to go to

Brussels, they have to agree, then they have to go back and have

agreement from their own parliament. By the time this is done, the world

has moved on. The people in the financial sector, they have moved

on to the next target. This weekend, all eyes will be on what is

happening on Monday morning in the bond market. Where it is going to

go. Will Berlusconi it be enough to see Italy through -- will

Berlusconi stepping down at be enough to see Italy through? We saw

their interest rates in France going up this week to just over 6%.

That is in the danger zones. That is the area where by we have got to

watch. We, who are in the sterling zone, can avoid the war that is

going on, but we will be affected. We want to see stability returning

to the Eurozone country. stability ever come back? Is the

problem not that the whole idea is fatally flawed because there is too

much to organise? The idea was fatally flawed and the beginning

because they allowed countries, may miss out the figures to allow

certain countries like Italy, Ireland and Portugal into the

Eurozone when they were advised that they did not meet the criteria

at that time. They are now paying the price. How worried should we

be? We should be extremely worried. It has got to come to an end. The

European leaders have got to be really decisive in making clear to

the world markets, we are going to do bend which ever country it is.

That is the first thing which will bring stability back. It will be a

long road for recovery, but it will bring back stability. What is the

point of the European Parliament? What can you do to influence

decisions being made? These decisions are being dealt with by a

the leaders in the euro as an area, and by it mainly Angela Merkel and

Sarkozy. These two leaders have got elections to face next year in both

countries. They do not want the instability to continues. What you

will see is the Eurozone countries deepening and sharing more

responsibility with an emerging European Bank being the guarantor

of all of this. This is what will have to happen. Then you will be

into a two speed Europe. The Eurozone countries will be on their

own, and then there will be those outside the Eurozone. What does

that mean for us if Ireland ends up in the second Tia and the UK end up

in the first here? In Northern Ireland, we are at the only part

that has a frontier with the Eurozone country. All the taxes

could be different. New know what happens with taxation and the

different price of petrol at this moment in time. Those are all areas

that are unknown quantities to us at this time. Simply getting out of

Europe does not solve the problem, it only increases the problem.

Europe needs to solve their problem and the UK needs to decide how they

want to be part of Europe, and then we should have a referendum as to

where we stand within Europe. Another pressing issue for the

Northern Irish economy is these enormous fines we are looking

likely to have to pay. Where do you stand on that? The Executive has

taken you to the European Court because they believe the finds are

unwarranted. This is nothing to do with Europe, this is the European

Court of auditors who have made a complaint and somehow we seem to

have got ourselves into a position where we have been subject to have

to pay some money because Europe claims and we made mistakes with

our land. The maps of the fields of the island -- island of Ireland

were laid when Ireland was one, before Northern Ireland or the

Republic existed. No-one can tell me that the maps in the north or

worse than those in the south. I think it is time for reality. I

hope the Executive when this. It is worrying because it will be up to

�130 million and it may have to go back to Europe at this present

Poppy wreaths have been laid at Cenotaph us throughout Northern

Ireland today honouring the war dead. 17 years after the IRA

ceasefire and 13 years after the Good Friday Agreement, there is

little to commemorate those who were killed during the Troubles and

no agreement as to how their deaths should be marked. We have been to

one city in Europe where remembrance and the design of

Berlin, another city where past and present collide. Like Northern

Ireland it now draws visitors to one time sites of conflict. It

seems to have come to terms with its painful history, unlike us.

history has become a bit of a theme park. In Germany no-one asks you

what school you went to, or what school you go to. This is a

memorial to the murdered Jews of Europe. It stands in Berlin. In its

design and construction it proved controversial. Since it opened in

2005, it has attracted millions of visitors. Are there lessons that

can be learned by Germany and how it has done -- dealt with its

difficult past. This memorial was a long time coming. It was

controversial in many aspects because many Jews did not want to

see it, many Germans did not want to see it. It is very strange that

it is a monument by the perpetrators on their soil to the

victims. That does not take place very often. One place that you will

not find an elaborate memorial is the sight of Hitler's bunker.

you are a German, it is very difficult to embrace this horrific

past in a tasteful way. Not doing too much are enough. I think Berlin

has a very nice balance. Standing here, on top of Hitler's bunker is

an incredible experience. We had a tour of the Jewish areas, and we

happened to be Jewish. It was, again, very touching. A lot of

trepidation, having no idea as to what I would see and how it would

be put trade, and how they would feel at being here, being Jewish.

How has it been for you? It has been a very pleasant experience.

More than a 55,000 Berlin Jews were murdered by the Nazis. The

sculptures commemorate some of the victims. They stand near a

synagogue which was set on fire by the Nazis. Now a major tourist

attraction, it has been fully restored and is guarded round-the-

clock, protection from possible attacks from neo-Nazis or Islamic

terrorists. Confronting history is something praiseworthy that has

happened in Germany. The memorials that we see today in Berlin, they

are the result of many decades of discussion and dialogue. I think

this is what is important about confronting history. It is a

process and it needs to have everyone involved. Film director

and tour guide, Calvin, has lived in Berlin for 12 years. He says

Germans cannot escape their history but most have reached an

accommodation of the past. When I take a group of young Germans

around the city, they seem to have got over it a bit. They have got

over it in the fact that in 2006 if you were here for the World Cup,

you would see young Germans wearing a German flag again. Actually

uniting, not in nationalism, it was more in togetherness. This summer,

Germany's government and civic leaders commemorated the 50th

anniversary of the Berlin Wall. At least 130 men women and children

lost their lives trying to cross from east to west. Simple memorials

let -- mark their deaths. Reunification has not been without

its problems. There are still part of the former East Germany which

have 35% unemployment. This myth that everything went right after

the Wall came down, it is not actually true. It comes down to

economics and politics, it does not come down to a sectarian divide in

any shape or form. The memorial to the murdered Jews of Europe was

completed 60 years after the end of the Second World War. Monuments for

others murdered by the Nazis including homosexuals, gypsies and

the disabled have taken even longer to be agreed and built. There is

something to be said for forgetting, and there is a lot of things to be

said for a taking time. A lot of water should go under the bridge

before you figure out what should happen. Creating monuments to the

fights and the war between Northern Ireland and the IRA, if that would

be part of your history. It is also how you learn how in the Irish are.

I am joined by victims Commissioner Patricia McBride and DUP MP Jeffrey

Donaldson. Jeffrey Donaldson, have we dealt with it? I do not think we

have. I think feelings in Northern Ireland still run high. There is

still a rawness out there. When you look at what has happened in

Enniskillen, we remember the Poppy Day massacre and the victims. A

montage of the victims was erected at the local fire station with a

poppy on it. And some Republicans objected because of the presence of

the poppy. The montage was taken down. I think that level of

disrespect, immaturity, towards those murdered on that occasion

shows the level and distance we have yet to travel before we can

come to some time of understanding on Remembrance. Patricia McBride,

there are many other cases that are similar from both perspectives. How

do we go forward? Have we left it too long, or not long enough?

interested by the point about confronting history in the film.

For victims and survivors that is something they do every day. Part

of that is through the processes of historical investigations taking

place, historical inquiries, the Police Ombudsman and public

inquiries. We do confront history every day. It is a part of what

makes people what they are. Whether there is a time that is right, do

we wait, or do we proceed in trying to reach agreement, the fundamental

issue is where do we start? We need to start with acknowledgement. We

need to start with acknowledging that the lost, hurt and agreement

that has happened in communities. Jeffrey Donaldson, do memorial so

add to the division in some ways? If you choose one particular

memorial to one particular incident, that is not really helping us do

with our past and co-operate and share a future. As you heard in the

report about Berlin, it has taken them many years to get to a point

where they were able to agree on the appropriate form of

commemorating what were, for them, very difficult and tragic events. I

suspect in Northern Ireland we still have some distance to travel

before we can arrive at eight point where we have agreed forms of

memorial. There are many memorials across Northern Ireland, and indeed

in family living rooms where there are photographs and memorabilia at

of loved ones who were lost during the Troubles. Remembrance is a

personal and private thing as well as being a collective thing. Do we

need collective remembrance or should we leave it to the

individual? There is something like 600 miles across Northern Ireland

for trouble related incidents. -- 600 memorials. We need to

concentrate on building the peace and building stability in Northern

Ireland. We're not out of the woods yet. Maybe there will come a time

when we can reflect on the journey we have undertaken and agree some

form of memorial, perhaps here in Belfast or at an appropriate

location. I do not think people are ready for that yet. We cannot even

agree at the moment on the definition of a victim, never mind

agree on a common form of memorial. Patricia McBride, that is a point.

There is an argument about what makes a victim. The first point to

go back to is the issue of the 600 memorials. What I would say about

them is that they are individual. They may be specific to a

particular community, or geographic area, but they do not share the

story of the deaths of the individual that commemorate with

the wider community. I would like to see us making moves towards

doing that. There is no dispute over that definition of a victim,

it is enshrined in legislation is. The legislation is there to serve

those who are in need, and that is the people who have been bereaved,

people who have been severely injured and those who care for them.

It is a straightforward issue. It is about serving present needs. We

have to remember that people need to commemorate those that they have

lost and the lives that they have had which have been changed as a

result of the conflict. Do you think we need a collective

memorial? I think we have made huge strides towards creating spaces for

dialogue. I think the fact that we have reached agreement within the

Office of the first and Deputy First Minister about a way forward

on long cash, that shows we may have a possibility, we are still in

dialogue about that will contain but the fact we have that side to

work upon is a huge step forward. I think initiatives like healing

through remembering, annual day of reflection which takes place on

21st June each year, this as building blocks for a community

remembrance of all those who have died. Jeffrey Donaldson, do you

think the state should fund these memorials? If they are not helping

healing, they are in some ways adding to the division. Why should

the government be paying for them? Right now I think the priority is

to fund, support and care for the victims. There is still a great

need out there and that pasta be the priority for government funding.

Support to that victims, people need that support. But in terms of

memorials we will not support something which glorify is that

terrorism of the last 40 years in Northern Ireland. One of the things

we can look at is providing an opportunity for people to tell

their story of their experience of the Troubles. The BBC had a very

powerful series on Radio just a few years ago. There was an opportunity

for people just to talk about an experience they had during the

Troubles. I think that set a standard that might be followed.

That we would provide people with an opportunity to tell their story

about what happened to them during the Troubles. It is important we

have a record of that for future generations. Is that something you

would support, Patricia? Absolutely. Storytelling can be very valuable,

but more importantly it is how the stories are heard, acknowledged and