12/06/2011 The Politics Show Scotland

Hello and welcome to the Politics Show. Last time he was was here he

threatened to resign over the Government's plans for the NHS.

Today Norman Lamb returns to the Politics Show - is he ready to

declare victory? We'll also hear from Labour's

health spokesman in a tricky week On the Politics Show in Scotland,

we'll talk to the Finance Secretary about soaring power prices. We'll

ask: can the UK government's new work programme really do the job?

There's a look back at a week of wrangling between Holyrood and

Westminster.. And is it one referendum, or two? We'll also

discuss this: It's what can happen when what women wear becomes a

political issue. It's happening in Scotland and it's called the

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1199 seconds

The government wants to understand from Scottish Power exactly why

that is the case. Scottish Power says it is looking forward to

meeting Mr Swinney. Andy Murray has the chance to win

his first title this year is the takes on Jo-Wilfried Tsonga of

France. The match has been moved forward to 12 o'clock due to a

forecast of heavy rain. The world No. 4 played some of his best

tennis taking less than an hour to beat Andy Roddick 6-163. The

forecast for the rest of the day is going to be a mainly bright

afternoon with sunny spells. Temperatures peaking at around 16

Celsius. Later, cloud will thicken in the south to bring rain to the

central belt by evening. Overnight, the rain will spread north and

become more persistent. It will turn later for the South with

strong winds around the coast. Temperatures will drop to six

Celsius or seven Celsius. That is the news for now, our next update

is at 4:50pm. Thank you. It has been described as

the centrepiece of the most sweeping changes to the welfare

system and more than 60 years. But, while the West as a government's

new Work Programme actually work. The scheme aims to get millions of

people across the UK of benefits and into employment. Over the last

six months, our reporter Hayley Jarvis has been following the

progress of four people looking for work in Glasgow. One has since

found a job but Haley has caught up with the rest to ask them if they

think it will become easier to find a job.

This will be a brief interview. Brian Jones has been out to work

for more than one year. He is taking part in a mock interview at

an office and Hamilton. The employment company will only get

government money if they find him a job and he stays and it for at

least six months. He will get further payments -- they will get

further payments the longer he remains and work. Could this be a

solution to long-term unemployment? The coalition think so. They have

awarded two company's contracts to deliver this Work Programme in

Scotland. It is one single employment programme that will

provide integrated support to people. We will be working with

people for longer than we have in previous programmes, twice as long.

That additional time will allow us to spend more time with people who

are further away from work and need that much more support. Could this

payment by results approached we'd private contractors just to focus

on areas where they are more likely to find people work. One of the

fundamental parts of the Work Programme is that the government

has recognised their people out there who are much harder to help.

As such, them into money that we need to investigate those people

into work is significantly more for those individuals. The programme is

about making sure everyone gets access to the help they need.

Unemployment in Scotland fell during the first quarter this year

to just over 200,000. Does it feel easier for those looking for work?

A farewell lunch at Langside College, where William Ralph and

has just finished a skills for employment course. He has been

trying to find a job for 10 months and has now started to cast his net

a little wider. Assistant Baker at ASDA. Railway conductor with first

Got Mail. Paisley Arts Centre. It has been wide and varied, and again

I have applied to go back into the industry came from, the

telecommunications industry. Something I did not want to do but

needs must. He believes it is getting more difficult to find a

job. Speaking to my course colleagues and other people, it is

getting more difficult to find a job at this moment in time. In the

back of my mind, I still think my age might be a problem. 23-year-old

Hannah Nicholson works part-time but skills -- still scours internet

pages in the hope of finding a graduate job in publishing. While

more optimistic about the future, she never thought it would be the

stuff to get the job she wants. did not think you may be difficult

at all. I was 18 when I went to university and at that point, I

thought, and my wife is ahead of me. This will be a new adventure, and

for the most part it has been. I like to think I might get a

graduate job. I have made a new year's resolution that they will

get a new job this year. Onwards and upwards. Susan Walker is

getting tips from her adviser at Glasgow's Regeneration Agency,

ahead of a job interview she has that afternoon. The 59-year-old

took voluntary redundancy from her job and banking to produce --

pursue a career in the care sector. She has just finished a course on

caring skills. They help I got from people on the course was fantastic.

I have finished the course now and they're still helping me. Despite

the prospect of an interview, she doesn't believe it is any easier to

find work than when she first started looking nine months ago.

is no better than I said before. It is very difficult and I do not

think it is getting any easier. Maybe I feel better because I am

trying to focus on one thing. I was applying for all different jobs,

and I am still having to do that, but I am focusing on the care

sector. I just can see the job situation getting much better.

will get a health check on the labour market by way of the latest

unemployment figures and a few days' time.

Joining me here in the studio, Laurie Russell from the Glasgow

volunteer organisation, The Wise Group. We also have Christian Ross

from it think tank Centre for Social Justice. Laurie Russell,

first of all, do you think this programme is a good idea? I think

it is essentially a good idea. My worry is the government is doing it

on the cheap and are not spending sufficient funds and supporting

people who have a series of issues about their lives and lifestyles

that the need to address to get into work. My biggest worry is I do

not think the jobs are out there for the number of people that want

work and could be supported and to work. A recent statistic in the

Glasgow Herald talked about 40 people chasing every job and West

Dunbartonshire. That is repeated in other parts of Scotland. We're not

yet creating the jobs that people who are not in work would like to

It is important to see the Work Programme at as important. The

universal creditable in sensitise people to work in a way that they

haven't been incentivised before. Secondly, for employers, a well

incentivised job creation because all of a sudden, you have people

who can take flexibility in the workplace and they can take a job

for 10 hours, whereas before it was rigid. You had 16 hours or 32 hours

or full-time. The second part is the work programme macro. They are

able to broaden horizons, Spock One of the criticisms is the way

this has been structured, because they don't make money until they

place people in work, there is pressure on them to ignore the

people who most need support and equally to pressurise the

honourable people into jobs that are unsuitable for them. In terms

of the fine a point, the way the work programme is structured is you

have to sustain the work. People will be paid if they help people

stay in work for a year or two years. That deals with the point

about checking people in at any old job. There are concerns about the

funding structures. It is early days and the Government should be

careful to review the ongoing nature of the payment process and

how the work programme is delivered. It is to demonstrate that they can

deliver. Brilliant organisations have been but we need more of that.

They make the case for why they deserve more money. The Government

is trying to straddle venue for -- value for money with attacks bowl

with paying providers properly. It is important they do this properly.

It is early days. Is it not the case that 88 % of the major

contracts went to profit-making companies. Some are saying the

charities have been used as eating can he for this. I agree. The

Government guidance in the bidding process was that 30 % of the supply

chain should be third sector. We had at least 30 % and we were

delivering around 40 % ourselves. We had a third sector dominating

the chain. In Scotland, the third sector has been very good over a

number of years in these types of programmes. I don't object to

payment by results. Part of what the third sector has to realise is

that we have to be just as accountable for the quality and the

performance of our programmes as anybody else. It is not something

that the third sector would disagree with. Part of the problem

is the funds have been required in the early stages of the programme

which has led to be consultant -- big companies to get involved in

this type of programme. They need a turnover of what? It was 20 million.

Some charities can do that. There was one input London that did get a

contract. We would have been supported by a bank's. You feel you

would have had a better insight into the local area? What would be

the advantage of the charities doing it? It is the charities that

would have worked with us. We know their communities, customers and we

recruit people who have been unemployed or been in prison or had

some difficulty. They can empathise with the customers. We know what

the employee is in our region and we know they are looking for and we

have delivered for -- delivered to meet their needs. Actually it would

have been more responsive to local needs if they had better utilised

the charities on the ground who know the area and to know the job

structures. I think there is a natural sense that in the initial

bidding process in the prime contractors, 80 % has gone to the

private sector because than that -- is a national sense that they have

the capital. Days emphasis placed on them working with the smaller

charities at the sub contracting level. 48-50 % of those that are

winning sub-contracts are charities. Pressure will be put on the -- will

be put on white told to make sure those charities, this brilliant

organisations are on the ground. -- the Whitehall. The larger contracts

have gone to the larger organisations that will sub-

contract out. Finally, it is a tall order to place people in work,

hopefully for years who have been unable to work for a very long time.

That is a tall order to fulfil. is difficult and there have been

people that have been nowhere near the work force. There has been a

group that hasn't been able to engage in the workforce. This is

why charities are so well place and where the Government has realised

it is not best placed to get people back into work. It is the personal

touch that charities can of the people. They can build horizons and

build new it skills bases. We have the best people on the job through

the work programme and is challenging. There is an interest

and a passion for doing this work and I hope that it will deliver.

The interest in the work programme has been huge and it is exciting.

It is to a ball. Thank you very much for that. Will

have a catch up with you in a few months' time.

The power struggle between Holyrood and Westminster intensified Astor -

- after a series of ministerial meetings. A row erupted when

Michael Moore suggested a second referendum on independence should

be held. The Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg, Anatoly route would get

early access to borrowing powers but equally want that demands for

further powers could not be considered without more detail.

The constitutional row began on Monday when the Scottish Secretary,

Michael Moore, suggested they should be a second referendum on

independence for Scotland could separate from the union. An

advisory held by Holyrood and a second held by Westminster,

Spedding -- spelling out the divorce terms between Scotland and

the rest of the UK. The First Minister dismissed his view as

Wittering and irrelevant nonsense. By Wednesday, Alex Salmond was

cranking up the pressure on the Prime Minister, David Cameron, to

do a better job of helping Scotland's economy. The meeting at

Downing Street was their first since the SNP's historic election

when. The first Mr demanded that Mr Cameron Report his economic policy

and reduce the farming can be to stimulate the Scottish economy.

John Swinney put forward our Plan B, our call for urgent flexibility in

the air autonomy. That is increased capital investment, a fair and

rigorous attempt to get bank lending going to a medium-sized

businesses and the most important thing of getting can seem and

economic confidence back in the economy. It was the Deputy Prime

Minister, Nick Clegg, visit that brought with it a constitutional

concession. He offered Holly read access to borrowing powers which

would give it -- blip -- which would give around �200 million to

fund projects like the Frukt -- Forth Bridge. What welcomed, the

power doesn't go as far as the wider list Alex Salmond has called

for. They include control over corporation tax and alcohol excise

duties as well as control over the Crown Estate which is important

when it comes to renewable energy. He wants more power over

broadcasting and a stronger voice in Europe. How likely is it that

the UK Government will give up such powers? I am prepared to look at

any good ideas and thought through ideas. We haven't seen the detail

yet. There is -- you cannot respond to a press release, you have to

respond to well thought through ideas. If you want to create new

powers for Scotland, which work for Scotland than in the future, they

have to be thought through. Throughout the week, thoughts

suggest that he had distance himself from the Secretary's

comments at. -- distanced. Mike Kim Wall -- Michael Moore didn't

acknowledge this. I haven't changed the opinion that I have voiced. I

am setting it in the broader context. A constitutional debate

which we have said is for the First Minister to bring forward his

referendum. We need to see what it is about. The UK Government is

reported to be setting up an anti- independence campaign which

suggests the constitutional battle between Westminster and hollow reed

is about to get a clear. The five back to see the Union is about to

get started. -- Holyrood. Joining us now is at Lord Steel,

the former Holyrood presiding officer. He led to the commission

that led on to fiscal federalism. Think you for coming in. Do you

think Michael Moore was right to make the, as he did about their

having to be two referendums? think he was technically correct.

If there is an advisory referendum in Scotland, that doesn't have

effect. The referendum is a reserved matter. Westminster has to

decide. It would be better if we had one. There would mean

Corporation between the best Minstead Government and Scotland.

That is what people are prepared to see. This argument that one

referendum would have a mandate to discuss. Is that a necessary?

would be far better if the Scottish Government agreed with the

Westminster Government. The question that needs to be put to

the Scottish people, which fundamentally, is, do you want to

stay in the UK or not? That is the big issue. What about the Commons?

He was technically correct. One of the things that is disturbing me

about the Scottish Government's reaction is you put it yourself a

minute ago, dealing with the issue. They accuse him of Wittering. It is

like the insults that they were directing at the Scottish court.

This megaphone diplomacy is not the way to run the Government and it

runs counter to what Alex Salmond was saying when he gave the

impression that he was going to be listening, that he was going to be

dealing in a consensual way with the Westminster Government. We are

getting the impression that this could his Government was taken away

with arrogance. I hope we get back to it and get more co-operation

between both sides. The other argument is that the Scottish

Secretary really doesn't understand the culture here. He doesn't

understand the whole dynamic that is happening here and what he said

was inappropriate and demonstrates how far out of touch he is. If the

fact is that the SNP have got a clear majority but the referendum

issue is one for Westminster. The two should get together. So long as

we have megaphone diplomacy come from the Scottish Government, it is

not... If there is friction created, this is a mistake. They should co-

operate on getting a single referendum question clearly

expressed where people can decide what to do. From the powers you

would like to have seen come to Scotland through your commission,

how similar are they in terms of the specifics and the objectives to

what the SNP Government is asking for? The commission did go further

than the present drafting of the Scotland Bill. You have to remember

what happened, the steel Commission import into the commission was an

all party won. The SNP stayed out of it which was unfortunate. It was

a consensual arrangement preen the Conservatives, Labour and the Lib

Dems. Labour has given the Lib Dems everything that they wanted. That

is the nature of politics and we can win the Scotland been -- and

when the Scotland Bill gets to the House of Lords, other issues will

be worth exploring. As Nick Clegg was saying earlier in your

interview, it is up to the Scottish Government to come forward with

proposals to put to the Westminster Government. Do you have frustration

that is seen as possibly that people could accuse your colleagues

are -- in Westminster of repeating the Tory line? The Lib Dem

colleagues are saying what the Tories want to say. They are

slowing momentum here do you think? I didn't follow the passage of the

Scotland Bill through the House of Commons in any great detail. It is

not coming to us in the House of Lords and to the autumn. Again, the

Lib Dems have gone along with the consensus of the Calman Commission.

That is inevitable. If we want to merge it forward, it is up to the

Government in Edinburgh to come up with proposals that we can consider.

There is every opportunity to do that. It has got to be done between

the Government, between the parties, rather than shouting over the

airways which is what tends to happen at the moment. Lord Steel,

thank you for that. Joining us from our Dundee studio is the Finance

Secretary, John Swinney. Thanks for coming in. What you make of Lord

Steel's, is that there has been too much megaphone diplomacy, I was

going to say that but it is the wrong word. Inevitably in politics,

there's always a lot of hot language kicking around. The

substance of what David Steel was saying there, not surprisingly, is

enormously helpful to the debate because what Lord Steel was making

the case for a, was an ambitious agenda of constitutional change. At

the heart of the agenda for it still commission which he presided

over, I think gave a different of - - and above different areas where

we can make progress on the constitutional issues in Scotland

where it brings people together. There is a lot that is substantial

and that we would want to take forward. He must be encouraged by

his Commons weather has been of this argument for that the

electorate is reluctant to hand the SNP a blank cheque Gonesse. There

could be an argument that says have won a referendum that allows you to

negotiate and to get momentum. When you come to the second referendum,

on the details, that momentum is behind you. Lord Steel has said

that is rubbish. That must be encouraging? The point on the

referendum is to follow where this debate is going since the election.

The Prime Minister said the Scottish Government was free to get

on with the referendum that he would put no obstacles in their way.

That is the official line of the United Kingdom Government. It

doesn't get any clearer than when you hear it from the Prime Minister.

That is the approach that we are taking and what the Secretary of

State for Scotland is saying, is that he doesn't represent the way

it should be taken forward. I am glad Lord Steel has given such a

clear opinion this morning that the single referendum approach which

does coughed -- Scottish Government intensity into Parliament in the

latter part of this parliamentary term, is the right way to proceed.

If we look now about your concerns about the hike in energy bills,

what you hope will come at this We obviously have a very deep

concern about the rise in energy prices set out by Scottish Power

this week. I thickened is important we have a discussion with Scottish

Power about all the issues that are involved in these decisions. Quite

clearly, we have an agenda as a government to try to tackle fuel

poverty and to improve energy efficiency. The last thing I want

to see is all that good work undermined by significant increases

in energy prices. This would just drive higher levels of fuel poverty

would in Scotland. We will be seeking to explore with Scottish

Power all these questions, to form an understanding of the challenges

they face and of the issues that we can concentrate on to try to tackle

this problem. Is it not the case you government has said very

ambitious renewable energy targets and then ordered to pay for those,

the Bills have to go up. There is a direct correlation between the

energy programme you legitimately want to bring in and the actual

costs to these companies? It is not the case. What we saw this week was

an increase in gas prices by 19%. As I understand it, that is driven

by the wholesale gas market. That is something that is of very deep

concern. One of the other issues we have to wrestle with is this whole

debate about future energy sources, is about transmission charges.

About half of the total transmission charges in the United

Kingdom today are paid for by Scottish companies. We are seeking

a very significant reform of the transmission charges regime within

the United Kingdom, to make it more easy up -- make it easier and more

affordable to develop alternative sources of energy to those of today.

We have to face that debate because the requirements of the climate Act

forces to do so. There is a whole agenda that have to be explored

here to ensure we can tackle both the continuity of supply issues and

also the energy prices issue. to be clear on this, is that your

argument there is no correlation between you renewables targets and

the rise in the energy bills? is my position. What we're trying

to tackle the issue of transmission charges which we acknowledge is a

significant issue in addressing the cost of production of alternative

energy sources. If we get that right, we will be in a position to

deliver, I think him a long term, the kind of affordable energy

prices people in Scotland expect. Is there such a thing as

inappropriate dress for women and girls, and how much if it all

should the Government get involved in shaping the debate? It may seem

an extraordinary question to ask in this day and age, but as David

Allison reports, female attire is now a political issue?

Toronto Canada. The first so-called slutwalk. The culture we live and

perpetuates the idea that rape survivors somehow asked for the

experience. The demonstration was sparked after a Toronto police

constable told university students that women should avoid dressing

like sluts in order not to be victimised. Slutwalk protests have

mushroomed around the world. There was one in Glasgow last weekend and

another set for Edinburgh next week. One of those who will be marching

in Edinburgh is with me now. It is not uncommon to hear people say it

is up to do a victim to take care of themselves. This has been piling

up and piling up and for some reason, this has been the incident

that has done it. I think it is a good thing that it has trigger this

movement. You and I are talking about rape and a con --

conversational sense. The furore it over remarks made by the Justice

Secretary Kenneth Clarke last month showed just how dangerous it can be

for politicians when the comment on issues like rape and say that some

cases are more serious than others. Kenneth Clarke was forced to do it

two interviews with the BBC in the space of a few hours to try to

extricate himself from a political scandal of his own making. At the

other end of the spectrum, the government acting over clothing.

Alongside clothing, an independent review has been of no the impact of

magazines and television in sexual rising children. The report carried

out by the mothers Union says it is now up to the government to

consider and work out what they do next. The move towards a more

specialised society is not necessarily a deliberate move. It

is perhaps more of an unthinking rift. That is a concern for parents

and the Express that very clearly. They also do not want to rub their

children up in cotton wool. They want to see society as a whole with

a more healthy and thoughtful approach. What would have been for

grown-ups only 60 a 70 years now no longer raises an eyebrow. This is a

line that keeps moving. Should these magazines be covered? Is this

video suitable for an eight-year- old? All people can see images that

should sometimes be broadly defined as sexual act. Everyone has access

to that. Whether are not the actual issue is can you see what children

so they do not have access to certain images and society? Of

course you cannot. A I think to try to legislate in terms of the mass

of commercialisation is inevitably going to lead to some difficulties.

What we really need to look at is building up the resilience of

children, and that comes really from responsible parenting and from

good reading of her children. This would let them cope and be

resilient. We need to look at what they need to grow up reasonably in

a society. There has already been changed. Tesco no longer sells a

pole dancing set on its website. WH Smith no longer sells playboys

stationery. BhS have stopped stocking underwear with the Little

Miss naughty wall. What connects restrictions with what is sold to

young girls and the freedom of young women? I think it is a much

deeper issue. It is one that will be quite problematic to get into

and fix. Changing the law is one thing. Changing attitudes is

another. For politicians, it is a tricky balancing act between the

rights and responsibilities of business, parents and media, and

those taking part in the slutwalk. David Allison there. With the now,

the Conservative MSP Margaret Mitchell and Lesley-Anne Pearson,

one of the organisers of the Edinburgh slutwalk. What sort of

attitudes the what a challenge with the slutwalk? Remain attitude we

would like to challenge is the concept that a victim of rape can

ever be held responsible for what has happened to them. Rape is an

awful crime regardless of the circumstances, and there seems to

be an insidious attitude in society at the moment, that if a woman was

drinking or flirting or about sex and drink from a man at a bar, then

she is somehow responsible for what happens to her. It is these

attitudes that stop women from reporting rapes and allows this to

continue. Headier things that permeates through? Are you looking

at rape convictions and Scotland? You can separate rape convictions

into two halves. You have the six or 7% figure given by David Cameron

recently, and this is off rapes reported. The conviction rate in

Scotland is very low still. Have the problem is women are not going

to the police, and there was a recent report by a London charity

that said one of the main reasons people do not reports rape and

sexual assault to police, is because they are ashamed, and they

should never have to be ashamed. This attitude that if you press

this way it is somehow your fault has to be stopped. Are you

surprised by the momentum that has now? I was a little surprised, but

I was very pleased. It is so exciting to see so many people

getting on board and be willing to stand up. You lead a committee that

look that this debate between adult women saying we should be able to

wear whatever we want and that says nothing about us, and actually what

seems to be the socialisation of children in the clothing ranges and

the images they are exposed to. Is this a difficult divide? The whole

debate is very complex. The Equal Opportunities Commission

commissioned research into the specialisation of children's goods.

That was triggered by a round-table debate we had where concern was

expressed about the effects of these, and the increasing number of

goods available that could fit into that category. If anything was

clear, it was a hugely complex debate even to define what was a

sexual wised good. It is also something that would be subjective.

One person's interpretation was not the same as another's. What do you

think of the argument you cannot isolate children any more. Do you

think that argument is sound a should be be trying harder? I think

you have to use common sense. What did come out was that it would be

impossible to define a solution -- policy that would start talking

banning things. What would be welcome perhaps would be some

guidelines for parents, or labelling. Quite often they were

not aware of what the connotations would be. The research we did

really stood alone as contributing to the debate, and for once,

providing some empirical evidence which is essential if you're going

to have a meaningful discussion on the issue. To get back to the

slutwalk. Some feminists are uncomfortable with the use of the

word slut in this context. The main reason the word came about was as a

direct response to the language used by Toronto police officer, in

telling women that if they did not want to get rate, they should stop

dressing like sluts. This has become an international expression

of outrage at the sentiments behind that. I do not think it is

necessary for people to want to reclaim the word to come up on the

slutwalk. All they have to do is be determined to show that the victim

should never be blamed. I think that taking a language that has

been used to divide us, and making it bring us together, as a very

important part of the argument. It also gets attention. It makes

people pay attention and talk about it. You think this is a word that

can be reclaimed and ridiculed. Some feminists would say this would

is beyond redemption, with all sorts of misogynistic practice, and

women who go on this walk and internalising abuse. We're coming

at it more from the perspective that if you calling one of as a

slut, we are all sorts. It has nothing to do with how you dress or

how you behave. It has become just a uniform insult, so what we want

to do is take the power away from it. We refuse to allow it us to be

labelled by it any more. If you're a slut for wearing a short skirt,

you're a slot for wearing trousers and a pair of shoes. Where are we

with the equality agenda overall in the context of this debate? Some

people feel the equality agenda has stalled. What the research has

shown is that sexual eyes goods were predominantly, almost

exclusively, aimed at girls. There was certainly agenda issue there.

There were also concerns about a very young -- at the very young age,

children would be preoccupied with how the look. That could lead to