12/06/2011 The Politics Show Scotland


12/06/2011

Political magazine presented by Jon Sopel and Isabel Fraser.


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Transcript


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Hello and welcome to the Politics Show. Last time he was was here he

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threatened to resign over the Government's plans for the NHS.

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Today Norman Lamb returns to the Politics Show - is he ready to

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declare victory? We'll also hear from Labour's

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health spokesman in a tricky week On the Politics Show in Scotland,

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we'll talk to the Finance Secretary about soaring power prices. We'll

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ask: can the UK government's new work programme really do the job?

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There's a look back at a week of wrangling between Holyrood and

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Westminster.. And is it one referendum, or two? We'll also

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discuss this: It's what can happen when what women wear becomes a

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political issue. It's happening in Scotland and it's called the

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Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1199 seconds

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The government wants to understand from Scottish Power exactly why

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that is the case. Scottish Power says it is looking forward to

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meeting Mr Swinney. Andy Murray has the chance to win

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his first title this year is the takes on Jo-Wilfried Tsonga of

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France. The match has been moved forward to 12 o'clock due to a

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forecast of heavy rain. The world No. 4 played some of his best

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tennis taking less than an hour to beat Andy Roddick 6-163. The

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forecast for the rest of the day is going to be a mainly bright

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afternoon with sunny spells. Temperatures peaking at around 16

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Celsius. Later, cloud will thicken in the south to bring rain to the

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central belt by evening. Overnight, the rain will spread north and

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become more persistent. It will turn later for the South with

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strong winds around the coast. Temperatures will drop to six

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Celsius or seven Celsius. That is the news for now, our next update

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is at 4:50pm. Thank you. It has been described as

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the centrepiece of the most sweeping changes to the welfare

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system and more than 60 years. But, while the West as a government's

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new Work Programme actually work. The scheme aims to get millions of

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people across the UK of benefits and into employment. Over the last

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six months, our reporter Hayley Jarvis has been following the

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progress of four people looking for work in Glasgow. One has since

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found a job but Haley has caught up with the rest to ask them if they

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think it will become easier to find a job.

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This will be a brief interview. Brian Jones has been out to work

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for more than one year. He is taking part in a mock interview at

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an office and Hamilton. The employment company will only get

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government money if they find him a job and he stays and it for at

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least six months. He will get further payments -- they will get

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further payments the longer he remains and work. Could this be a

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solution to long-term unemployment? The coalition think so. They have

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awarded two company's contracts to deliver this Work Programme in

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Scotland. It is one single employment programme that will

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provide integrated support to people. We will be working with

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people for longer than we have in previous programmes, twice as long.

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That additional time will allow us to spend more time with people who

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are further away from work and need that much more support. Could this

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payment by results approached we'd private contractors just to focus

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on areas where they are more likely to find people work. One of the

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fundamental parts of the Work Programme is that the government

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has recognised their people out there who are much harder to help.

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As such, them into money that we need to investigate those people

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into work is significantly more for those individuals. The programme is

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about making sure everyone gets access to the help they need.

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Unemployment in Scotland fell during the first quarter this year

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to just over 200,000. Does it feel easier for those looking for work?

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A farewell lunch at Langside College, where William Ralph and

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has just finished a skills for employment course. He has been

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trying to find a job for 10 months and has now started to cast his net

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a little wider. Assistant Baker at ASDA. Railway conductor with first

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Got Mail. Paisley Arts Centre. It has been wide and varied, and again

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I have applied to go back into the industry came from, the

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telecommunications industry. Something I did not want to do but

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needs must. He believes it is getting more difficult to find a

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job. Speaking to my course colleagues and other people, it is

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getting more difficult to find a job at this moment in time. In the

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back of my mind, I still think my age might be a problem. 23-year-old

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Hannah Nicholson works part-time but skills -- still scours internet

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pages in the hope of finding a graduate job in publishing. While

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more optimistic about the future, she never thought it would be the

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stuff to get the job she wants. did not think you may be difficult

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at all. I was 18 when I went to university and at that point, I

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thought, and my wife is ahead of me. This will be a new adventure, and

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for the most part it has been. I like to think I might get a

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graduate job. I have made a new year's resolution that they will

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get a new job this year. Onwards and upwards. Susan Walker is

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getting tips from her adviser at Glasgow's Regeneration Agency,

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ahead of a job interview she has that afternoon. The 59-year-old

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took voluntary redundancy from her job and banking to produce --

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pursue a career in the care sector. She has just finished a course on

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caring skills. They help I got from people on the course was fantastic.

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I have finished the course now and they're still helping me. Despite

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the prospect of an interview, she doesn't believe it is any easier to

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find work than when she first started looking nine months ago.

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is no better than I said before. It is very difficult and I do not

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think it is getting any easier. Maybe I feel better because I am

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trying to focus on one thing. I was applying for all different jobs,

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and I am still having to do that, but I am focusing on the care

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sector. I just can see the job situation getting much better.

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will get a health check on the labour market by way of the latest

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unemployment figures and a few days' time.

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Joining me here in the studio, Laurie Russell from the Glasgow

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volunteer organisation, The Wise Group. We also have Christian Ross

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from it think tank Centre for Social Justice. Laurie Russell,

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first of all, do you think this programme is a good idea? I think

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it is essentially a good idea. My worry is the government is doing it

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on the cheap and are not spending sufficient funds and supporting

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people who have a series of issues about their lives and lifestyles

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that the need to address to get into work. My biggest worry is I do

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not think the jobs are out there for the number of people that want

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work and could be supported and to work. A recent statistic in the

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Glasgow Herald talked about 40 people chasing every job and West

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Dunbartonshire. That is repeated in other parts of Scotland. We're not

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yet creating the jobs that people who are not in work would like to

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It is important to see the Work Programme at as important. The

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universal creditable in sensitise people to work in a way that they

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haven't been incentivised before. Secondly, for employers, a well

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incentivised job creation because all of a sudden, you have people

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who can take flexibility in the workplace and they can take a job

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for 10 hours, whereas before it was rigid. You had 16 hours or 32 hours

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or full-time. The second part is the work programme macro. They are

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able to broaden horizons, Spock One of the criticisms is the way

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this has been structured, because they don't make money until they

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place people in work, there is pressure on them to ignore the

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people who most need support and equally to pressurise the

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honourable people into jobs that are unsuitable for them. In terms

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of the fine a point, the way the work programme is structured is you

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have to sustain the work. People will be paid if they help people

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stay in work for a year or two years. That deals with the point

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about checking people in at any old job. There are concerns about the

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funding structures. It is early days and the Government should be

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careful to review the ongoing nature of the payment process and

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how the work programme is delivered. It is to demonstrate that they can

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deliver. Brilliant organisations have been but we need more of that.

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They make the case for why they deserve more money. The Government

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is trying to straddle venue for -- value for money with attacks bowl

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with paying providers properly. It is important they do this properly.

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It is early days. Is it not the case that 88 % of the major

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contracts went to profit-making companies. Some are saying the

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charities have been used as eating can he for this. I agree. The

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Government guidance in the bidding process was that 30 % of the supply

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chain should be third sector. We had at least 30 % and we were

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delivering around 40 % ourselves. We had a third sector dominating

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the chain. In Scotland, the third sector has been very good over a

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number of years in these types of programmes. I don't object to

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payment by results. Part of what the third sector has to realise is

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that we have to be just as accountable for the quality and the

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performance of our programmes as anybody else. It is not something

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that the third sector would disagree with. Part of the problem

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is the funds have been required in the early stages of the programme

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which has led to be consultant -- big companies to get involved in

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this type of programme. They need a turnover of what? It was 20 million.

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Some charities can do that. There was one input London that did get a

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contract. We would have been supported by a bank's. You feel you

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would have had a better insight into the local area? What would be

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the advantage of the charities doing it? It is the charities that

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would have worked with us. We know their communities, customers and we

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recruit people who have been unemployed or been in prison or had

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some difficulty. They can empathise with the customers. We know what

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the employee is in our region and we know they are looking for and we

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have delivered for -- delivered to meet their needs. Actually it would

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have been more responsive to local needs if they had better utilised

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the charities on the ground who know the area and to know the job

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structures. I think there is a natural sense that in the initial

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bidding process in the prime contractors, 80 % has gone to the

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private sector because than that -- is a national sense that they have

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the capital. Days emphasis placed on them working with the smaller

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charities at the sub contracting level. 48-50 % of those that are

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winning sub-contracts are charities. Pressure will be put on the -- will

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be put on white told to make sure those charities, this brilliant

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organisations are on the ground. -- the Whitehall. The larger contracts

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have gone to the larger organisations that will sub-

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contract out. Finally, it is a tall order to place people in work,

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hopefully for years who have been unable to work for a very long time.

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That is a tall order to fulfil. is difficult and there have been

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people that have been nowhere near the work force. There has been a

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group that hasn't been able to engage in the workforce. This is

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why charities are so well place and where the Government has realised

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it is not best placed to get people back into work. It is the personal

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touch that charities can of the people. They can build horizons and

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build new it skills bases. We have the best people on the job through

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the work programme and is challenging. There is an interest

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and a passion for doing this work and I hope that it will deliver.

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The interest in the work programme has been huge and it is exciting.

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It is to a ball. Thank you very much for that. Will

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have a catch up with you in a few months' time.

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The power struggle between Holyrood and Westminster intensified Astor -

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- after a series of ministerial meetings. A row erupted when

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Michael Moore suggested a second referendum on independence should

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be held. The Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg, Anatoly route would get

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early access to borrowing powers but equally want that demands for

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further powers could not be considered without more detail.

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The constitutional row began on Monday when the Scottish Secretary,

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Michael Moore, suggested they should be a second referendum on

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independence for Scotland could separate from the union. An

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advisory held by Holyrood and a second held by Westminster,

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Spedding -- spelling out the divorce terms between Scotland and

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the rest of the UK. The First Minister dismissed his view as

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Wittering and irrelevant nonsense. By Wednesday, Alex Salmond was

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cranking up the pressure on the Prime Minister, David Cameron, to

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do a better job of helping Scotland's economy. The meeting at

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Downing Street was their first since the SNP's historic election

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when. The first Mr demanded that Mr Cameron Report his economic policy

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and reduce the farming can be to stimulate the Scottish economy.

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John Swinney put forward our Plan B, our call for urgent flexibility in

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the air autonomy. That is increased capital investment, a fair and

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rigorous attempt to get bank lending going to a medium-sized

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businesses and the most important thing of getting can seem and

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economic confidence back in the economy. It was the Deputy Prime

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Minister, Nick Clegg, visit that brought with it a constitutional

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concession. He offered Holly read access to borrowing powers which

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would give it -- blip -- which would give around �200 million to

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fund projects like the Frukt -- Forth Bridge. What welcomed, the

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power doesn't go as far as the wider list Alex Salmond has called

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for. They include control over corporation tax and alcohol excise

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duties as well as control over the Crown Estate which is important

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when it comes to renewable energy. He wants more power over

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broadcasting and a stronger voice in Europe. How likely is it that

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the UK Government will give up such powers? I am prepared to look at

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any good ideas and thought through ideas. We haven't seen the detail

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yet. There is -- you cannot respond to a press release, you have to

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respond to well thought through ideas. If you want to create new

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powers for Scotland, which work for Scotland than in the future, they

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have to be thought through. Throughout the week, thoughts

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suggest that he had distance himself from the Secretary's

:37:06.:37:16.
:37:16.:37:17.

comments at. -- distanced. Mike Kim Wall -- Michael Moore didn't

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acknowledge this. I haven't changed the opinion that I have voiced. I

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am setting it in the broader context. A constitutional debate

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which we have said is for the First Minister to bring forward his

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referendum. We need to see what it is about. The UK Government is

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reported to be setting up an anti- independence campaign which

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suggests the constitutional battle between Westminster and hollow reed

:37:44.:37:50.

is about to get a clear. The five back to see the Union is about to

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get started. -- Holyrood. Joining us now is at Lord Steel,

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the former Holyrood presiding officer. He led to the commission

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that led on to fiscal federalism. Think you for coming in. Do you

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think Michael Moore was right to make the, as he did about their

:38:12.:38:17.

having to be two referendums? think he was technically correct.

:38:17.:38:20.

If there is an advisory referendum in Scotland, that doesn't have

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effect. The referendum is a reserved matter. Westminster has to

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decide. It would be better if we had one. There would mean

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Corporation between the best Minstead Government and Scotland.

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That is what people are prepared to see. This argument that one

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referendum would have a mandate to discuss. Is that a necessary?

:38:46.:38:50.

would be far better if the Scottish Government agreed with the

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Westminster Government. The question that needs to be put to

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the Scottish people, which fundamentally, is, do you want to

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stay in the UK or not? That is the big issue. What about the Commons?

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He was technically correct. One of the things that is disturbing me

:39:12.:39:16.

about the Scottish Government's reaction is you put it yourself a

:39:16.:39:20.

minute ago, dealing with the issue. They accuse him of Wittering. It is

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like the insults that they were directing at the Scottish court.

:39:25.:39:30.

This megaphone diplomacy is not the way to run the Government and it

:39:30.:39:34.

runs counter to what Alex Salmond was saying when he gave the

:39:34.:39:38.

impression that he was going to be listening, that he was going to be

:39:38.:39:42.

dealing in a consensual way with the Westminster Government. We are

:39:42.:39:47.

getting the impression that this could his Government was taken away

:39:47.:39:52.

with arrogance. I hope we get back to it and get more co-operation

:39:53.:39:59.

between both sides. The other argument is that the Scottish

:39:59.:40:02.

Secretary really doesn't understand the culture here. He doesn't

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understand the whole dynamic that is happening here and what he said

:40:07.:40:12.

was inappropriate and demonstrates how far out of touch he is. If the

:40:12.:40:18.

fact is that the SNP have got a clear majority but the referendum

:40:18.:40:23.

issue is one for Westminster. The two should get together. So long as

:40:23.:40:28.

we have megaphone diplomacy come from the Scottish Government, it is

:40:28.:40:33.

not... If there is friction created, this is a mistake. They should co-

:40:33.:40:37.

operate on getting a single referendum question clearly

:40:37.:40:41.

expressed where people can decide what to do. From the powers you

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would like to have seen come to Scotland through your commission,

:40:45.:40:50.

how similar are they in terms of the specifics and the objectives to

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what the SNP Government is asking for? The commission did go further

:40:56.:41:00.

than the present drafting of the Scotland Bill. You have to remember

:41:00.:41:07.

what happened, the steel Commission import into the commission was an

:41:07.:41:12.

all party won. The SNP stayed out of it which was unfortunate. It was

:41:12.:41:16.

a consensual arrangement preen the Conservatives, Labour and the Lib

:41:16.:41:24.

Dems. Labour has given the Lib Dems everything that they wanted. That

:41:24.:41:30.

is the nature of politics and we can win the Scotland been -- and

:41:30.:41:34.

when the Scotland Bill gets to the House of Lords, other issues will

:41:34.:41:38.

be worth exploring. As Nick Clegg was saying earlier in your

:41:38.:41:43.

interview, it is up to the Scottish Government to come forward with

:41:43.:41:51.

proposals to put to the Westminster Government. Do you have frustration

:41:51.:41:54.

that is seen as possibly that people could accuse your colleagues

:41:54.:41:58.

are -- in Westminster of repeating the Tory line? The Lib Dem

:41:58.:42:03.

colleagues are saying what the Tories want to say. They are

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slowing momentum here do you think? I didn't follow the passage of the

:42:09.:42:12.

Scotland Bill through the House of Commons in any great detail. It is

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not coming to us in the House of Lords and to the autumn. Again, the

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Lib Dems have gone along with the consensus of the Calman Commission.

:42:22.:42:31.

That is inevitable. If we want to merge it forward, it is up to the

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Government in Edinburgh to come up with proposals that we can consider.

:42:34.:42:38.

There is every opportunity to do that. It has got to be done between

:42:38.:42:43.

the Government, between the parties, rather than shouting over the

:42:43.:42:46.

airways which is what tends to happen at the moment. Lord Steel,

:42:46.:42:51.

thank you for that. Joining us from our Dundee studio is the Finance

:42:51.:42:56.

Secretary, John Swinney. Thanks for coming in. What you make of Lord

:42:56.:43:00.

Steel's, is that there has been too much megaphone diplomacy, I was

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going to say that but it is the wrong word. Inevitably in politics,

:43:04.:43:09.

there's always a lot of hot language kicking around. The

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substance of what David Steel was saying there, not surprisingly, is

:43:13.:43:17.

enormously helpful to the debate because what Lord Steel was making

:43:17.:43:24.

the case for a, was an ambitious agenda of constitutional change. At

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the heart of the agenda for it still commission which he presided

:43:28.:43:32.

over, I think gave a different of - - and above different areas where

:43:32.:43:35.

we can make progress on the constitutional issues in Scotland

:43:35.:43:40.

where it brings people together. There is a lot that is substantial

:43:40.:43:43.

and that we would want to take forward. He must be encouraged by

:43:44.:43:48.

his Commons weather has been of this argument for that the

:43:48.:43:52.

electorate is reluctant to hand the SNP a blank cheque Gonesse. There

:43:52.:43:56.

could be an argument that says have won a referendum that allows you to

:43:56.:43:59.

negotiate and to get momentum. When you come to the second referendum,

:43:59.:44:05.

on the details, that momentum is behind you. Lord Steel has said

:44:05.:44:11.

that is rubbish. That must be encouraging? The point on the

:44:11.:44:14.

referendum is to follow where this debate is going since the election.

:44:14.:44:17.

The Prime Minister said the Scottish Government was free to get

:44:17.:44:21.

on with the referendum that he would put no obstacles in their way.

:44:21.:44:24.

That is the official line of the United Kingdom Government. It

:44:24.:44:28.

doesn't get any clearer than when you hear it from the Prime Minister.

:44:28.:44:33.

That is the approach that we are taking and what the Secretary of

:44:33.:44:37.

State for Scotland is saying, is that he doesn't represent the way

:44:37.:44:41.

it should be taken forward. I am glad Lord Steel has given such a

:44:41.:44:46.

clear opinion this morning that the single referendum approach which

:44:46.:44:49.

does coughed -- Scottish Government intensity into Parliament in the

:44:49.:44:53.

latter part of this parliamentary term, is the right way to proceed.

:44:53.:44:58.

If we look now about your concerns about the hike in energy bills,

:44:58.:45:08.
:45:08.:45:09.

what you hope will come at this We obviously have a very deep

:45:09.:45:12.

concern about the rise in energy prices set out by Scottish Power

:45:12.:45:16.

this week. I thickened is important we have a discussion with Scottish

:45:16.:45:21.

Power about all the issues that are involved in these decisions. Quite

:45:21.:45:26.

clearly, we have an agenda as a government to try to tackle fuel

:45:26.:45:31.

poverty and to improve energy efficiency. The last thing I want

:45:32.:45:36.

to see is all that good work undermined by significant increases

:45:36.:45:41.

in energy prices. This would just drive higher levels of fuel poverty

:45:41.:45:44.

would in Scotland. We will be seeking to explore with Scottish

:45:44.:45:48.

Power all these questions, to form an understanding of the challenges

:45:49.:45:53.

they face and of the issues that we can concentrate on to try to tackle

:45:53.:45:59.

this problem. Is it not the case you government has said very

:45:59.:46:02.

ambitious renewable energy targets and then ordered to pay for those,

:46:02.:46:07.

the Bills have to go up. There is a direct correlation between the

:46:07.:46:10.

energy programme you legitimately want to bring in and the actual

:46:10.:46:16.

costs to these companies? It is not the case. What we saw this week was

:46:16.:46:21.

an increase in gas prices by 19%. As I understand it, that is driven

:46:21.:46:26.

by the wholesale gas market. That is something that is of very deep

:46:26.:46:33.

concern. One of the other issues we have to wrestle with is this whole

:46:33.:46:37.

debate about future energy sources, is about transmission charges.

:46:37.:46:42.

About half of the total transmission charges in the United

:46:42.:46:46.

Kingdom today are paid for by Scottish companies. We are seeking

:46:46.:46:49.

a very significant reform of the transmission charges regime within

:46:49.:46:56.

the United Kingdom, to make it more easy up -- make it easier and more

:46:56.:47:00.

affordable to develop alternative sources of energy to those of today.

:47:00.:47:04.

We have to face that debate because the requirements of the climate Act

:47:05.:47:09.

forces to do so. There is a whole agenda that have to be explored

:47:09.:47:14.

here to ensure we can tackle both the continuity of supply issues and

:47:14.:47:21.

also the energy prices issue. to be clear on this, is that your

:47:21.:47:24.

argument there is no correlation between you renewables targets and

:47:24.:47:29.

the rise in the energy bills? is my position. What we're trying

:47:29.:47:33.

to tackle the issue of transmission charges which we acknowledge is a

:47:33.:47:38.

significant issue in addressing the cost of production of alternative

:47:38.:47:44.

energy sources. If we get that right, we will be in a position to

:47:44.:47:48.

deliver, I think him a long term, the kind of affordable energy

:47:48.:47:56.

prices people in Scotland expect. Is there such a thing as

:47:56.:48:00.

inappropriate dress for women and girls, and how much if it all

:48:00.:48:05.

should the Government get involved in shaping the debate? It may seem

:48:05.:48:09.

an extraordinary question to ask in this day and age, but as David

:48:09.:48:14.

Allison reports, female attire is now a political issue?

:48:14.:48:23.

Toronto Canada. The first so-called slutwalk. The culture we live and

:48:23.:48:28.

perpetuates the idea that rape survivors somehow asked for the

:48:28.:48:34.

experience. The demonstration was sparked after a Toronto police

:48:34.:48:37.

constable told university students that women should avoid dressing

:48:37.:48:44.

like sluts in order not to be victimised. Slutwalk protests have

:48:44.:48:49.

mushroomed around the world. There was one in Glasgow last weekend and

:48:49.:48:54.

another set for Edinburgh next week. One of those who will be marching

:48:54.:49:02.

in Edinburgh is with me now. It is not uncommon to hear people say it

:49:02.:49:08.

is up to do a victim to take care of themselves. This has been piling

:49:08.:49:11.

up and piling up and for some reason, this has been the incident

:49:11.:49:15.

that has done it. I think it is a good thing that it has trigger this

:49:15.:49:21.

movement. You and I are talking about rape and a con --

:49:21.:49:27.

conversational sense. The furore it over remarks made by the Justice

:49:27.:49:32.

Secretary Kenneth Clarke last month showed just how dangerous it can be

:49:32.:49:35.

for politicians when the comment on issues like rape and say that some

:49:35.:49:41.

cases are more serious than others. Kenneth Clarke was forced to do it

:49:41.:49:44.

two interviews with the BBC in the space of a few hours to try to

:49:45.:49:48.

extricate himself from a political scandal of his own making. At the

:49:48.:49:54.

other end of the spectrum, the government acting over clothing.

:49:54.:49:58.

Alongside clothing, an independent review has been of no the impact of

:49:58.:50:02.

magazines and television in sexual rising children. The report carried

:50:02.:50:06.

out by the mothers Union says it is now up to the government to

:50:06.:50:11.

consider and work out what they do next. The move towards a more

:50:11.:50:14.

specialised society is not necessarily a deliberate move. It

:50:14.:50:19.

is perhaps more of an unthinking rift. That is a concern for parents

:50:19.:50:25.

and the Express that very clearly. They also do not want to rub their

:50:25.:50:30.

children up in cotton wool. They want to see society as a whole with

:50:30.:50:37.

a more healthy and thoughtful approach. What would have been for

:50:37.:50:44.

grown-ups only 60 a 70 years now no longer raises an eyebrow. This is a

:50:44.:50:50.

line that keeps moving. Should these magazines be covered? Is this

:50:51.:50:58.

video suitable for an eight-year- old? All people can see images that

:50:58.:51:02.

should sometimes be broadly defined as sexual act. Everyone has access

:51:02.:51:07.

to that. Whether are not the actual issue is can you see what children

:51:07.:51:11.

so they do not have access to certain images and society? Of

:51:11.:51:16.

course you cannot. A I think to try to legislate in terms of the mass

:51:16.:51:22.

of commercialisation is inevitably going to lead to some difficulties.

:51:22.:51:25.

What we really need to look at is building up the resilience of

:51:25.:51:31.

children, and that comes really from responsible parenting and from

:51:32.:51:37.

good reading of her children. This would let them cope and be

:51:37.:51:44.

resilient. We need to look at what they need to grow up reasonably in

:51:44.:51:50.

a society. There has already been changed. Tesco no longer sells a

:51:50.:51:54.

pole dancing set on its website. WH Smith no longer sells playboys

:51:54.:52:00.

stationery. BhS have stopped stocking underwear with the Little

:52:00.:52:08.

Miss naughty wall. What connects restrictions with what is sold to

:52:08.:52:16.

young girls and the freedom of young women? I think it is a much

:52:16.:52:20.

deeper issue. It is one that will be quite problematic to get into

:52:20.:52:25.

and fix. Changing the law is one thing. Changing attitudes is

:52:25.:52:30.

another. For politicians, it is a tricky balancing act between the

:52:30.:52:33.

rights and responsibilities of business, parents and media, and

:52:33.:52:43.
:52:43.:52:43.

those taking part in the slutwalk. David Allison there. With the now,

:52:44.:52:47.

the Conservative MSP Margaret Mitchell and Lesley-Anne Pearson,

:52:47.:52:54.

one of the organisers of the Edinburgh slutwalk. What sort of

:52:54.:52:58.

attitudes the what a challenge with the slutwalk? Remain attitude we

:52:58.:53:02.

would like to challenge is the concept that a victim of rape can

:53:02.:53:07.

ever be held responsible for what has happened to them. Rape is an

:53:07.:53:10.

awful crime regardless of the circumstances, and there seems to

:53:10.:53:14.

be an insidious attitude in society at the moment, that if a woman was

:53:14.:53:23.

drinking or flirting or about sex and drink from a man at a bar, then

:53:23.:53:28.

she is somehow responsible for what happens to her. It is these

:53:28.:53:31.

attitudes that stop women from reporting rapes and allows this to

:53:31.:53:36.

continue. Headier things that permeates through? Are you looking

:53:36.:53:41.

at rape convictions and Scotland? You can separate rape convictions

:53:41.:53:49.

into two halves. You have the six or 7% figure given by David Cameron

:53:49.:53:58.

recently, and this is off rapes reported. The conviction rate in

:53:58.:54:04.

Scotland is very low still. Have the problem is women are not going

:54:05.:54:08.

to the police, and there was a recent report by a London charity

:54:08.:54:11.

that said one of the main reasons people do not reports rape and

:54:11.:54:15.

sexual assault to police, is because they are ashamed, and they

:54:15.:54:20.

should never have to be ashamed. This attitude that if you press

:54:20.:54:23.

this way it is somehow your fault has to be stopped. Are you

:54:23.:54:29.

surprised by the momentum that has now? I was a little surprised, but

:54:29.:54:33.

I was very pleased. It is so exciting to see so many people

:54:33.:54:39.

getting on board and be willing to stand up. You lead a committee that

:54:39.:54:45.

look that this debate between adult women saying we should be able to

:54:45.:54:50.

wear whatever we want and that says nothing about us, and actually what

:54:50.:54:55.

seems to be the socialisation of children in the clothing ranges and

:54:55.:55:02.

the images they are exposed to. Is this a difficult divide? The whole

:55:03.:55:09.

debate is very complex. The Equal Opportunities Commission

:55:09.:55:14.

commissioned research into the specialisation of children's goods.

:55:14.:55:19.

That was triggered by a round-table debate we had where concern was

:55:19.:55:23.

expressed about the effects of these, and the increasing number of

:55:23.:55:28.

goods available that could fit into that category. If anything was

:55:28.:55:33.

clear, it was a hugely complex debate even to define what was a

:55:33.:55:38.

sexual wised good. It is also something that would be subjective.

:55:38.:55:44.

One person's interpretation was not the same as another's. What do you

:55:44.:55:49.

think of the argument you cannot isolate children any more. Do you

:55:49.:55:54.

think that argument is sound a should be be trying harder? I think

:55:54.:56:01.

you have to use common sense. What did come out was that it would be

:56:01.:56:05.

impossible to define a solution -- policy that would start talking

:56:05.:56:10.

banning things. What would be welcome perhaps would be some

:56:10.:56:13.

guidelines for parents, or labelling. Quite often they were

:56:13.:56:18.

not aware of what the connotations would be. The research we did

:56:18.:56:23.

really stood alone as contributing to the debate, and for once,

:56:23.:56:26.

providing some empirical evidence which is essential if you're going

:56:26.:56:31.

to have a meaningful discussion on the issue. To get back to the

:56:31.:56:35.

slutwalk. Some feminists are uncomfortable with the use of the

:56:35.:56:41.

word slut in this context. The main reason the word came about was as a

:56:41.:56:45.

direct response to the language used by Toronto police officer, in

:56:45.:56:49.

telling women that if they did not want to get rate, they should stop

:56:49.:56:53.

dressing like sluts. This has become an international expression

:56:53.:56:57.

of outrage at the sentiments behind that. I do not think it is

:56:57.:57:01.

necessary for people to want to reclaim the word to come up on the

:57:01.:57:04.

slutwalk. All they have to do is be determined to show that the victim

:57:04.:57:09.

should never be blamed. I think that taking a language that has

:57:09.:57:13.

been used to divide us, and making it bring us together, as a very

:57:13.:57:17.

important part of the argument. It also gets attention. It makes

:57:17.:57:22.

people pay attention and talk about it. You think this is a word that

:57:22.:57:27.

can be reclaimed and ridiculed. Some feminists would say this would

:57:27.:57:32.

is beyond redemption, with all sorts of misogynistic practice, and

:57:32.:57:37.

women who go on this walk and internalising abuse. We're coming

:57:37.:57:40.

at it more from the perspective that if you calling one of as a

:57:40.:57:44.

slut, we are all sorts. It has nothing to do with how you dress or

:57:44.:57:50.

how you behave. It has become just a uniform insult, so what we want

:57:50.:57:54.

to do is take the power away from it. We refuse to allow it us to be

:57:54.:57:59.

labelled by it any more. If you're a slut for wearing a short skirt,

:57:59.:58:04.

you're a slot for wearing trousers and a pair of shoes. Where are we

:58:04.:58:07.

with the equality agenda overall in the context of this debate? Some

:58:07.:58:13.

people feel the equality agenda has stalled. What the research has

:58:13.:58:16.

shown is that sexual eyes goods were predominantly, almost

:58:16.:58:22.

exclusively, aimed at girls. There was certainly agenda issue there.

:58:22.:58:29.

There were also concerns about a very young -- at the very young age,

:58:29.:58:33.

children would be preoccupied with how the look. That could lead to

:58:33.:58:37.

Political magazine presented by Jon Sopel and Isabel Fraser.


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