12/06/2011 The Politics Show Scotland


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Hello and welcome to the Politics Show. Last time he was was here he


threatened to resign over the Government's plans for the NHS.


Today Norman Lamb returns to the Politics Show - is he ready to


declare victory? We'll also hear from Labour's


health spokesman in a tricky week On the Politics Show in Scotland,


we'll talk to the Finance Secretary about soaring power prices. We'll


ask: can the UK government's new work programme really do the job?


There's a look back at a week of wrangling between Holyrood and


Westminster.. And is it one referendum, or two? We'll also


discuss this: It's what can happen when what women wear becomes a


political issue. It's happening in Scotland and it's called the


Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1199 seconds


The government wants to understand from Scottish Power exactly why


that is the case. Scottish Power says it is looking forward to


meeting Mr Swinney. Andy Murray has the chance to win


his first title this year is the takes on Jo-Wilfried Tsonga of


France. The match has been moved forward to 12 o'clock due to a


forecast of heavy rain. The world No. 4 played some of his best


tennis taking less than an hour to beat Andy Roddick 6-163. The


forecast for the rest of the day is going to be a mainly bright


afternoon with sunny spells. Temperatures peaking at around 16


Celsius. Later, cloud will thicken in the south to bring rain to the


central belt by evening. Overnight, the rain will spread north and


become more persistent. It will turn later for the South with


strong winds around the coast. Temperatures will drop to six


Celsius or seven Celsius. That is the news for now, our next update


is at 4:50pm. Thank you. It has been described as


the centrepiece of the most sweeping changes to the welfare


system and more than 60 years. But, while the West as a government's


new Work Programme actually work. The scheme aims to get millions of


people across the UK of benefits and into employment. Over the last


six months, our reporter Hayley Jarvis has been following the


progress of four people looking for work in Glasgow. One has since


found a job but Haley has caught up with the rest to ask them if they


think it will become easier to find a job.


This will be a brief interview. Brian Jones has been out to work


for more than one year. He is taking part in a mock interview at


an office and Hamilton. The employment company will only get


government money if they find him a job and he stays and it for at


least six months. He will get further payments -- they will get


further payments the longer he remains and work. Could this be a


solution to long-term unemployment? The coalition think so. They have


awarded two company's contracts to deliver this Work Programme in


Scotland. It is one single employment programme that will


provide integrated support to people. We will be working with


people for longer than we have in previous programmes, twice as long.


That additional time will allow us to spend more time with people who


are further away from work and need that much more support. Could this


payment by results approached we'd private contractors just to focus


on areas where they are more likely to find people work. One of the


fundamental parts of the Work Programme is that the government


has recognised their people out there who are much harder to help.


As such, them into money that we need to investigate those people


into work is significantly more for those individuals. The programme is


about making sure everyone gets access to the help they need.


Unemployment in Scotland fell during the first quarter this year


to just over 200,000. Does it feel easier for those looking for work?


A farewell lunch at Langside College, where William Ralph and


has just finished a skills for employment course. He has been


trying to find a job for 10 months and has now started to cast his net


a little wider. Assistant Baker at ASDA. Railway conductor with first


Got Mail. Paisley Arts Centre. It has been wide and varied, and again


I have applied to go back into the industry came from, the


telecommunications industry. Something I did not want to do but


needs must. He believes it is getting more difficult to find a


job. Speaking to my course colleagues and other people, it is


getting more difficult to find a job at this moment in time. In the


back of my mind, I still think my age might be a problem. 23-year-old


Hannah Nicholson works part-time but skills -- still scours internet


pages in the hope of finding a graduate job in publishing. While


more optimistic about the future, she never thought it would be the


stuff to get the job she wants. did not think you may be difficult


at all. I was 18 when I went to university and at that point, I


thought, and my wife is ahead of me. This will be a new adventure, and


for the most part it has been. I like to think I might get a


graduate job. I have made a new year's resolution that they will


get a new job this year. Onwards and upwards. Susan Walker is


getting tips from her adviser at Glasgow's Regeneration Agency,


ahead of a job interview she has that afternoon. The 59-year-old


took voluntary redundancy from her job and banking to produce --


pursue a career in the care sector. She has just finished a course on


caring skills. They help I got from people on the course was fantastic.


I have finished the course now and they're still helping me. Despite


the prospect of an interview, she doesn't believe it is any easier to


find work than when she first started looking nine months ago.


is no better than I said before. It is very difficult and I do not


think it is getting any easier. Maybe I feel better because I am


trying to focus on one thing. I was applying for all different jobs,


and I am still having to do that, but I am focusing on the care


sector. I just can see the job situation getting much better.


will get a health check on the labour market by way of the latest


unemployment figures and a few days' time.


Joining me here in the studio, Laurie Russell from the Glasgow


volunteer organisation, The Wise Group. We also have Christian Ross


from it think tank Centre for Social Justice. Laurie Russell,


first of all, do you think this programme is a good idea? I think


it is essentially a good idea. My worry is the government is doing it


on the cheap and are not spending sufficient funds and supporting


people who have a series of issues about their lives and lifestyles


that the need to address to get into work. My biggest worry is I do


not think the jobs are out there for the number of people that want


work and could be supported and to work. A recent statistic in the


Glasgow Herald talked about 40 people chasing every job and West


Dunbartonshire. That is repeated in other parts of Scotland. We're not


yet creating the jobs that people who are not in work would like to


It is important to see the Work Programme at as important. The


universal creditable in sensitise people to work in a way that they


haven't been incentivised before. Secondly, for employers, a well


incentivised job creation because all of a sudden, you have people


who can take flexibility in the workplace and they can take a job


for 10 hours, whereas before it was rigid. You had 16 hours or 32 hours


or full-time. The second part is the work programme macro. They are


able to broaden horizons, Spock One of the criticisms is the way


this has been structured, because they don't make money until they


place people in work, there is pressure on them to ignore the


people who most need support and equally to pressurise the


honourable people into jobs that are unsuitable for them. In terms


of the fine a point, the way the work programme is structured is you


have to sustain the work. People will be paid if they help people


stay in work for a year or two years. That deals with the point


about checking people in at any old job. There are concerns about the


funding structures. It is early days and the Government should be


careful to review the ongoing nature of the payment process and


how the work programme is delivered. It is to demonstrate that they can


deliver. Brilliant organisations have been but we need more of that.


They make the case for why they deserve more money. The Government


is trying to straddle venue for -- value for money with attacks bowl


with paying providers properly. It is important they do this properly.


It is early days. Is it not the case that 88 % of the major


contracts went to profit-making companies. Some are saying the


charities have been used as eating can he for this. I agree. The


Government guidance in the bidding process was that 30 % of the supply


chain should be third sector. We had at least 30 % and we were


delivering around 40 % ourselves. We had a third sector dominating


the chain. In Scotland, the third sector has been very good over a


number of years in these types of programmes. I don't object to


payment by results. Part of what the third sector has to realise is


that we have to be just as accountable for the quality and the


performance of our programmes as anybody else. It is not something


that the third sector would disagree with. Part of the problem


is the funds have been required in the early stages of the programme


which has led to be consultant -- big companies to get involved in


this type of programme. They need a turnover of what? It was 20 million.


Some charities can do that. There was one input London that did get a


contract. We would have been supported by a bank's. You feel you


would have had a better insight into the local area? What would be


the advantage of the charities doing it? It is the charities that


would have worked with us. We know their communities, customers and we


recruit people who have been unemployed or been in prison or had


some difficulty. They can empathise with the customers. We know what


the employee is in our region and we know they are looking for and we


have delivered for -- delivered to meet their needs. Actually it would


have been more responsive to local needs if they had better utilised


the charities on the ground who know the area and to know the job


structures. I think there is a natural sense that in the initial


bidding process in the prime contractors, 80 % has gone to the


private sector because than that -- is a national sense that they have


the capital. Days emphasis placed on them working with the smaller


charities at the sub contracting level. 48-50 % of those that are


winning sub-contracts are charities. Pressure will be put on the -- will


be put on white told to make sure those charities, this brilliant


organisations are on the ground. -- the Whitehall. The larger contracts


have gone to the larger organisations that will sub-


contract out. Finally, it is a tall order to place people in work,


hopefully for years who have been unable to work for a very long time.


That is a tall order to fulfil. is difficult and there have been


people that have been nowhere near the work force. There has been a


group that hasn't been able to engage in the workforce. This is


why charities are so well place and where the Government has realised


it is not best placed to get people back into work. It is the personal


touch that charities can of the people. They can build horizons and


build new it skills bases. We have the best people on the job through


the work programme and is challenging. There is an interest


and a passion for doing this work and I hope that it will deliver.


The interest in the work programme has been huge and it is exciting.


It is to a ball. Thank you very much for that. Will


have a catch up with you in a few months' time.


The power struggle between Holyrood and Westminster intensified Astor -


- after a series of ministerial meetings. A row erupted when


Michael Moore suggested a second referendum on independence should


be held. The Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg, Anatoly route would get


early access to borrowing powers but equally want that demands for


further powers could not be considered without more detail.


The constitutional row began on Monday when the Scottish Secretary,


Michael Moore, suggested they should be a second referendum on


independence for Scotland could separate from the union. An


advisory held by Holyrood and a second held by Westminster,


Spedding -- spelling out the divorce terms between Scotland and


the rest of the UK. The First Minister dismissed his view as


Wittering and irrelevant nonsense. By Wednesday, Alex Salmond was


cranking up the pressure on the Prime Minister, David Cameron, to


do a better job of helping Scotland's economy. The meeting at


Downing Street was their first since the SNP's historic election


when. The first Mr demanded that Mr Cameron Report his economic policy


and reduce the farming can be to stimulate the Scottish economy.


John Swinney put forward our Plan B, our call for urgent flexibility in


the air autonomy. That is increased capital investment, a fair and


rigorous attempt to get bank lending going to a medium-sized


businesses and the most important thing of getting can seem and


economic confidence back in the economy. It was the Deputy Prime


Minister, Nick Clegg, visit that brought with it a constitutional


concession. He offered Holly read access to borrowing powers which


would give it -- blip -- which would give around �200 million to


fund projects like the Frukt -- Forth Bridge. What welcomed, the


power doesn't go as far as the wider list Alex Salmond has called


for. They include control over corporation tax and alcohol excise


duties as well as control over the Crown Estate which is important


when it comes to renewable energy. He wants more power over


broadcasting and a stronger voice in Europe. How likely is it that


the UK Government will give up such powers? I am prepared to look at


any good ideas and thought through ideas. We haven't seen the detail


yet. There is -- you cannot respond to a press release, you have to


respond to well thought through ideas. If you want to create new


powers for Scotland, which work for Scotland than in the future, they


have to be thought through. Throughout the week, thoughts


suggest that he had distance himself from the Secretary's


comments at. -- distanced. Mike Kim Wall -- Michael Moore didn't


acknowledge this. I haven't changed the opinion that I have voiced. I


am setting it in the broader context. A constitutional debate


which we have said is for the First Minister to bring forward his


referendum. We need to see what it is about. The UK Government is


reported to be setting up an anti- independence campaign which


suggests the constitutional battle between Westminster and hollow reed


is about to get a clear. The five back to see the Union is about to


get started. -- Holyrood. Joining us now is at Lord Steel,


the former Holyrood presiding officer. He led to the commission


that led on to fiscal federalism. Think you for coming in. Do you


think Michael Moore was right to make the, as he did about their


having to be two referendums? think he was technically correct.


If there is an advisory referendum in Scotland, that doesn't have


effect. The referendum is a reserved matter. Westminster has to


decide. It would be better if we had one. There would mean


Corporation between the best Minstead Government and Scotland.


That is what people are prepared to see. This argument that one


referendum would have a mandate to discuss. Is that a necessary?


would be far better if the Scottish Government agreed with the


Westminster Government. The question that needs to be put to


the Scottish people, which fundamentally, is, do you want to


stay in the UK or not? That is the big issue. What about the Commons?


He was technically correct. One of the things that is disturbing me


about the Scottish Government's reaction is you put it yourself a


minute ago, dealing with the issue. They accuse him of Wittering. It is


like the insults that they were directing at the Scottish court.


This megaphone diplomacy is not the way to run the Government and it


runs counter to what Alex Salmond was saying when he gave the


impression that he was going to be listening, that he was going to be


dealing in a consensual way with the Westminster Government. We are


getting the impression that this could his Government was taken away


with arrogance. I hope we get back to it and get more co-operation


between both sides. The other argument is that the Scottish


Secretary really doesn't understand the culture here. He doesn't


understand the whole dynamic that is happening here and what he said


was inappropriate and demonstrates how far out of touch he is. If the


fact is that the SNP have got a clear majority but the referendum


issue is one for Westminster. The two should get together. So long as


we have megaphone diplomacy come from the Scottish Government, it is


not... If there is friction created, this is a mistake. They should co-


operate on getting a single referendum question clearly


expressed where people can decide what to do. From the powers you


would like to have seen come to Scotland through your commission,


how similar are they in terms of the specifics and the objectives to


what the SNP Government is asking for? The commission did go further


than the present drafting of the Scotland Bill. You have to remember


what happened, the steel Commission import into the commission was an


all party won. The SNP stayed out of it which was unfortunate. It was


a consensual arrangement preen the Conservatives, Labour and the Lib


Dems. Labour has given the Lib Dems everything that they wanted. That


is the nature of politics and we can win the Scotland been -- and


when the Scotland Bill gets to the House of Lords, other issues will


be worth exploring. As Nick Clegg was saying earlier in your


interview, it is up to the Scottish Government to come forward with


proposals to put to the Westminster Government. Do you have frustration


that is seen as possibly that people could accuse your colleagues


are -- in Westminster of repeating the Tory line? The Lib Dem


colleagues are saying what the Tories want to say. They are


slowing momentum here do you think? I didn't follow the passage of the


Scotland Bill through the House of Commons in any great detail. It is


not coming to us in the House of Lords and to the autumn. Again, the


Lib Dems have gone along with the consensus of the Calman Commission.


That is inevitable. If we want to merge it forward, it is up to the


Government in Edinburgh to come up with proposals that we can consider.


There is every opportunity to do that. It has got to be done between


the Government, between the parties, rather than shouting over the


airways which is what tends to happen at the moment. Lord Steel,


thank you for that. Joining us from our Dundee studio is the Finance


Secretary, John Swinney. Thanks for coming in. What you make of Lord


Steel's, is that there has been too much megaphone diplomacy, I was


going to say that but it is the wrong word. Inevitably in politics,


there's always a lot of hot language kicking around. The


substance of what David Steel was saying there, not surprisingly, is


enormously helpful to the debate because what Lord Steel was making


the case for a, was an ambitious agenda of constitutional change. At


the heart of the agenda for it still commission which he presided


over, I think gave a different of - - and above different areas where


we can make progress on the constitutional issues in Scotland


where it brings people together. There is a lot that is substantial


and that we would want to take forward. He must be encouraged by


his Commons weather has been of this argument for that the


electorate is reluctant to hand the SNP a blank cheque Gonesse. There


could be an argument that says have won a referendum that allows you to


negotiate and to get momentum. When you come to the second referendum,


on the details, that momentum is behind you. Lord Steel has said


that is rubbish. That must be encouraging? The point on the


referendum is to follow where this debate is going since the election.


The Prime Minister said the Scottish Government was free to get


on with the referendum that he would put no obstacles in their way.


That is the official line of the United Kingdom Government. It


doesn't get any clearer than when you hear it from the Prime Minister.


That is the approach that we are taking and what the Secretary of


State for Scotland is saying, is that he doesn't represent the way


it should be taken forward. I am glad Lord Steel has given such a


clear opinion this morning that the single referendum approach which


does coughed -- Scottish Government intensity into Parliament in the


latter part of this parliamentary term, is the right way to proceed.


If we look now about your concerns about the hike in energy bills,


what you hope will come at this We obviously have a very deep


concern about the rise in energy prices set out by Scottish Power


this week. I thickened is important we have a discussion with Scottish


Power about all the issues that are involved in these decisions. Quite


clearly, we have an agenda as a government to try to tackle fuel


poverty and to improve energy efficiency. The last thing I want


to see is all that good work undermined by significant increases


in energy prices. This would just drive higher levels of fuel poverty


would in Scotland. We will be seeking to explore with Scottish


Power all these questions, to form an understanding of the challenges


they face and of the issues that we can concentrate on to try to tackle


this problem. Is it not the case you government has said very


ambitious renewable energy targets and then ordered to pay for those,


the Bills have to go up. There is a direct correlation between the


energy programme you legitimately want to bring in and the actual


costs to these companies? It is not the case. What we saw this week was


an increase in gas prices by 19%. As I understand it, that is driven


by the wholesale gas market. That is something that is of very deep


concern. One of the other issues we have to wrestle with is this whole


debate about future energy sources, is about transmission charges.


About half of the total transmission charges in the United


Kingdom today are paid for by Scottish companies. We are seeking


a very significant reform of the transmission charges regime within


the United Kingdom, to make it more easy up -- make it easier and more


affordable to develop alternative sources of energy to those of today.


We have to face that debate because the requirements of the climate Act


forces to do so. There is a whole agenda that have to be explored


here to ensure we can tackle both the continuity of supply issues and


also the energy prices issue. to be clear on this, is that your


argument there is no correlation between you renewables targets and


the rise in the energy bills? is my position. What we're trying


to tackle the issue of transmission charges which we acknowledge is a


significant issue in addressing the cost of production of alternative


energy sources. If we get that right, we will be in a position to


deliver, I think him a long term, the kind of affordable energy


prices people in Scotland expect. Is there such a thing as


inappropriate dress for women and girls, and how much if it all


should the Government get involved in shaping the debate? It may seem


an extraordinary question to ask in this day and age, but as David


Allison reports, female attire is now a political issue?


Toronto Canada. The first so-called slutwalk. The culture we live and


perpetuates the idea that rape survivors somehow asked for the


experience. The demonstration was sparked after a Toronto police


constable told university students that women should avoid dressing


like sluts in order not to be victimised. Slutwalk protests have


mushroomed around the world. There was one in Glasgow last weekend and


another set for Edinburgh next week. One of those who will be marching


in Edinburgh is with me now. It is not uncommon to hear people say it


is up to do a victim to take care of themselves. This has been piling


up and piling up and for some reason, this has been the incident


that has done it. I think it is a good thing that it has trigger this


movement. You and I are talking about rape and a con --


conversational sense. The furore it over remarks made by the Justice


Secretary Kenneth Clarke last month showed just how dangerous it can be


for politicians when the comment on issues like rape and say that some


cases are more serious than others. Kenneth Clarke was forced to do it


two interviews with the BBC in the space of a few hours to try to


extricate himself from a political scandal of his own making. At the


other end of the spectrum, the government acting over clothing.


Alongside clothing, an independent review has been of no the impact of


magazines and television in sexual rising children. The report carried


out by the mothers Union says it is now up to the government to


consider and work out what they do next. The move towards a more


specialised society is not necessarily a deliberate move. It


is perhaps more of an unthinking rift. That is a concern for parents


and the Express that very clearly. They also do not want to rub their


children up in cotton wool. They want to see society as a whole with


a more healthy and thoughtful approach. What would have been for


grown-ups only 60 a 70 years now no longer raises an eyebrow. This is a


line that keeps moving. Should these magazines be covered? Is this


video suitable for an eight-year- old? All people can see images that


should sometimes be broadly defined as sexual act. Everyone has access


to that. Whether are not the actual issue is can you see what children


so they do not have access to certain images and society? Of


course you cannot. A I think to try to legislate in terms of the mass


of commercialisation is inevitably going to lead to some difficulties.


What we really need to look at is building up the resilience of


children, and that comes really from responsible parenting and from


good reading of her children. This would let them cope and be


resilient. We need to look at what they need to grow up reasonably in


a society. There has already been changed. Tesco no longer sells a


pole dancing set on its website. WH Smith no longer sells playboys


stationery. BhS have stopped stocking underwear with the Little


Miss naughty wall. What connects restrictions with what is sold to


young girls and the freedom of young women? I think it is a much


deeper issue. It is one that will be quite problematic to get into


and fix. Changing the law is one thing. Changing attitudes is


another. For politicians, it is a tricky balancing act between the


rights and responsibilities of business, parents and media, and


those taking part in the slutwalk. David Allison there. With the now,


the Conservative MSP Margaret Mitchell and Lesley-Anne Pearson,


one of the organisers of the Edinburgh slutwalk. What sort of


attitudes the what a challenge with the slutwalk? Remain attitude we


would like to challenge is the concept that a victim of rape can


ever be held responsible for what has happened to them. Rape is an


awful crime regardless of the circumstances, and there seems to


be an insidious attitude in society at the moment, that if a woman was


drinking or flirting or about sex and drink from a man at a bar, then


she is somehow responsible for what happens to her. It is these


attitudes that stop women from reporting rapes and allows this to


continue. Headier things that permeates through? Are you looking


at rape convictions and Scotland? You can separate rape convictions


into two halves. You have the six or 7% figure given by David Cameron


recently, and this is off rapes reported. The conviction rate in


Scotland is very low still. Have the problem is women are not going


to the police, and there was a recent report by a London charity


that said one of the main reasons people do not reports rape and


sexual assault to police, is because they are ashamed, and they


should never have to be ashamed. This attitude that if you press


this way it is somehow your fault has to be stopped. Are you


surprised by the momentum that has now? I was a little surprised, but


I was very pleased. It is so exciting to see so many people


getting on board and be willing to stand up. You lead a committee that


look that this debate between adult women saying we should be able to


wear whatever we want and that says nothing about us, and actually what


seems to be the socialisation of children in the clothing ranges and


the images they are exposed to. Is this a difficult divide? The whole


debate is very complex. The Equal Opportunities Commission


commissioned research into the specialisation of children's goods.


That was triggered by a round-table debate we had where concern was


expressed about the effects of these, and the increasing number of


goods available that could fit into that category. If anything was


clear, it was a hugely complex debate even to define what was a


sexual wised good. It is also something that would be subjective.


One person's interpretation was not the same as another's. What do you


think of the argument you cannot isolate children any more. Do you


think that argument is sound a should be be trying harder? I think


you have to use common sense. What did come out was that it would be


impossible to define a solution -- policy that would start talking


banning things. What would be welcome perhaps would be some


guidelines for parents, or labelling. Quite often they were


not aware of what the connotations would be. The research we did


really stood alone as contributing to the debate, and for once,


providing some empirical evidence which is essential if you're going


to have a meaningful discussion on the issue. To get back to the


slutwalk. Some feminists are uncomfortable with the use of the


word slut in this context. The main reason the word came about was as a


direct response to the language used by Toronto police officer, in


telling women that if they did not want to get rate, they should stop


dressing like sluts. This has become an international expression


of outrage at the sentiments behind that. I do not think it is


necessary for people to want to reclaim the word to come up on the


slutwalk. All they have to do is be determined to show that the victim


should never be blamed. I think that taking a language that has


been used to divide us, and making it bring us together, as a very


important part of the argument. It also gets attention. It makes


people pay attention and talk about it. You think this is a word that


can be reclaimed and ridiculed. Some feminists would say this would


is beyond redemption, with all sorts of misogynistic practice, and


women who go on this walk and internalising abuse. We're coming


at it more from the perspective that if you calling one of as a


slut, we are all sorts. It has nothing to do with how you dress or


how you behave. It has become just a uniform insult, so what we want


to do is take the power away from it. We refuse to allow it us to be


labelled by it any more. If you're a slut for wearing a short skirt,


you're a slot for wearing trousers and a pair of shoes. Where are we


with the equality agenda overall in the context of this debate? Some


people feel the equality agenda has stalled. What the research has


shown is that sexual eyes goods were predominantly, almost


exclusively, aimed at girls. There was certainly agenda issue there.


There were also concerns about a very young -- at the very young age,


children would be preoccupied with how the look. That could lead to


Political magazine presented by Jon Sopel and Isabel Fraser.

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