Browse content similar to 02/10/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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In the West: $$ NEWLINE We're going to tell you the cost of the new | 0:00:35 | 0:00:39 | |
super hospital at Southmead in Bristol. Under the PFI scheme it's | 0:00:39 | 0:00:41 | |
a figure that will make your eyes water. | 0:00:41 | 0:00:44 | |
Labour optimistic of a West Country comeback, maybe things can only get | 0:00:44 | 0:00:54 | |
0:00:54 | 0:00:54 | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2152 seconds | 0:00:54 | 0:36:46 | |
The today we meet the politicians getting hot under the collar about | 0:36:46 | 0:36:52 | |
the cost of our new hospital. At �100,000 a day will the private | 0:36:52 | 0:36:59 | |
finance deal proved to be good value for us? Previous governments | 0:36:59 | 0:37:04 | |
borrowed all the money they could and still wanted to do more. It was | 0:37:04 | 0:37:07 | |
only only rider at the Labour conference for our two remaining | 0:37:07 | 0:37:14 | |
Labour MPs. They say things are looking bright for them. We will be | 0:37:14 | 0:37:24 | |
0:37:24 | 0:37:26 | ||
talking to the Conservative MP for First, the Politics Show can reveal | 0:37:26 | 0:37:31 | |
the enormous cost of building the new hospital under the | 0:37:31 | 0:37:35 | |
controversial private finance initiative. When you take into | 0:37:35 | 0:37:41 | |
account interest, it is �100,000 a- day and rising every year for 30 | 0:37:41 | 0:37:47 | |
years. That is �4,000 an hour and it does not include maintenance. Is | 0:37:47 | 0:37:52 | |
it fair to lumber our children and grandchildren of those costs? I | 0:37:52 | 0:38:02 | |
0:38:02 | 0:38:10 | ||
will be asking a Tory minister and Like so many of our hospitals, | 0:38:10 | 0:38:14 | |
these buildings at Frenchay were designed during the Second World | 0:38:14 | 0:38:18 | |
War. They may have been state-of- the-art then, but now the rooms are | 0:38:18 | 0:38:23 | |
crumbling. The cost of rebuilding them was too high so the NHS Trust | 0:38:23 | 0:38:26 | |
decided to build an entire new hospital down the road in Southmead | 0:38:26 | 0:38:32 | |
with a price tag of �430 million. With no money available from the | 0:38:32 | 0:38:36 | |
Treasury they had to look for private finance. | 0:38:36 | 0:38:41 | |
The foundations for PFI dealers in the NHS were laid by John Major and | 0:38:41 | 0:38:46 | |
built upon by Tony Blair. Over 100 hospitals like this one in | 0:38:46 | 0:38:51 | |
Southmead have now been developed. Concerns from the Health Secretary | 0:38:51 | 0:38:56 | |
Andrew Lansley who has warned 22 trusts, including the one building | 0:38:56 | 0:39:00 | |
this hospital, will struggle to afford the payments. He lays the | 0:39:00 | 0:39:05 | |
blame at the last government's door. Not at all because the government | 0:39:05 | 0:39:09 | |
borrows money to invest in infrastructure. We were faced with | 0:39:09 | 0:39:14 | |
the devastation of our hospitals, our schools, we have just got to | 0:39:14 | 0:39:18 | |
look at Bristol. All the schools that were being built and a Labour | 0:39:19 | 0:39:22 | |
government desperate to bring forward capital expenditure and to | 0:39:22 | 0:39:28 | |
build up public transport, schools and hospitals. PFI was a mechanism | 0:39:28 | 0:39:33 | |
to do that. Did it work perfectly? Well, I think we can see that some | 0:39:33 | 0:39:38 | |
of them were not well negotiated. Overall, I think whoever you speak | 0:39:38 | 0:39:45 | |
to, there are pros and cons for a PFI. In the end, we got our schools | 0:39:45 | 0:39:50 | |
and hospitals. The building work here at Southmead Hospital should | 0:39:50 | 0:39:57 | |
be finished at 24 teams. The cost will fix at �430 million. Just like | 0:39:57 | 0:40:02 | |
when you take it a mortgage, you need to pay back interest. Over 30 | 0:40:02 | 0:40:09 | |
years the trust will pay back �1.7 billion. That is liked by one | 0:40:09 | 0:40:16 | |
hospital, pay for four. They say it is a good deal. Previous | 0:40:16 | 0:40:18 | |
governments borrowed all the money they could and still wanted to do | 0:40:18 | 0:40:24 | |
more. So they borrowed of private companies. We PFI it is like | 0:40:24 | 0:40:28 | |
relaxing out on your own credit card and going to a high interest | 0:40:28 | 0:40:33 | |
lender. The trust declined our interview request but said they can | 0:40:33 | 0:40:38 | |
afford the repayments. May said PFI was their only option. Funding for | 0:40:38 | 0:40:42 | |
the NHS in England has come under fire as budgets are tightened. In | 0:40:43 | 0:40:50 | |
some cases, there has been a real terms decreasing funding. We should | 0:40:50 | 0:40:55 | |
be funding -- were read. The entire focus on the NHS is value for money. | 0:40:55 | 0:40:59 | |
I have been saying for a very long time that it simply does not | 0:40:59 | 0:41:02 | |
deliver value for money, particularly in the current climate | 0:41:02 | 0:41:06 | |
when we're trying to take services out of hospitals and deliver them | 0:41:06 | 0:41:11 | |
more cheaply. It does not make sense to have expensive PFI deals. | 0:41:11 | 0:41:15 | |
I hope the numbers stack up but I fear they do not. In a few years' | 0:41:15 | 0:41:20 | |
time, this building site will be a state-of-the-art hospital with more | 0:41:20 | 0:41:24 | |
rooms than anywhere else in the country. Of course that comes with | 0:41:24 | 0:41:29 | |
a hefty price tag, more than �100,000 per day. The NHS are | 0:41:29 | 0:41:33 | |
committed to spending bills -- billions on hospitals that were | 0:41:33 | 0:41:38 | |
built now but we will be paying for long after many of us have retired. | 0:41:38 | 0:41:43 | |
It will be a beautiful hospital, but is it worth it? With me to | 0:41:43 | 0:41:47 | |
discuss this is a Rebecca Pritchard who is the director of Grant | 0:41:47 | 0:41:53 | |
Thornton and the Conservative MP for Weston-super-Mare. Rebecca, at | 0:41:53 | 0:41:58 | |
�100,000 a day for the new hospital, is it worth it? It sounds like a | 0:41:58 | 0:42:03 | |
lot of money, but it is an age hundred bed hospital. When you look | 0:42:03 | 0:42:07 | |
at that cost, it represents something less than 7% of the | 0:42:07 | 0:42:12 | |
trust's budget. It is a larger number, but it is delivering a | 0:42:12 | 0:42:19 | |
fantastic service. �100,000 is about the cost of a GP per year. | 0:42:19 | 0:42:26 | |
The cost of A GP every single day,. It is a big commitment, but that is | 0:42:26 | 0:42:31 | |
what it takes to finance and run a hospital of that size. It does not | 0:42:31 | 0:42:35 | |
sound like good value. It is hard to look good value purely on | 0:42:35 | 0:42:40 | |
financial terms, but that is what people are focusing on. At the time | 0:42:40 | 0:42:44 | |
that this deal was done, the cost of finance for the private sector | 0:42:44 | 0:42:49 | |
was really high. Since the crash of Lehman Brothers, the cost of | 0:42:49 | 0:42:53 | |
borrowing in the private sector have been higher than in the past. | 0:42:53 | 0:42:57 | |
John Penrose, we are going to get the benefit of this shiny new | 0:42:57 | 0:43:02 | |
hospital. It will be great, but our children and grandchildren will be | 0:43:02 | 0:43:06 | |
paying probably when it is clapped out at the end of its 30 your life | 0:43:06 | 0:43:11 | |
for. Absolutely. PFI is like a mortgage, some are good value and | 0:43:11 | 0:43:16 | |
some are bad. This may be good, but around the country there are | 0:43:16 | 0:43:22 | |
examples of very bad value PFI contracts. Hugh and I and all our | 0:43:22 | 0:43:25 | |
viewers and their children will be paying for that for a very long | 0:43:25 | 0:43:32 | |
time. Can they be renegotiated? they can. It is difficult, but we | 0:43:32 | 0:43:36 | |
are engaged in doing precisely that. We cannot sit by and pour money | 0:43:36 | 0:43:40 | |
down the drains. Companies who have lent the Smiley are not going to | 0:43:40 | 0:43:46 | |
say, pay us less, are they? finance arrangements are quite | 0:43:47 | 0:43:52 | |
complex and difficult to unwind. In all cases, the projects are being | 0:43:52 | 0:43:57 | |
financed by banks at a fixed rate. It is difficult to terminate those | 0:43:57 | 0:44:02 | |
arrangements without incurring a lot of cost. It is probably about | 0:44:02 | 0:44:07 | |
working as flexibly as you can with the contracts and maybe with the | 0:44:07 | 0:44:12 | |
NHS and central Government. Whatever happens in the world, | 0:44:12 | 0:44:16 | |
these are fixed costs which Southmead cannot get out of. That | 0:44:16 | 0:44:21 | |
is right. Not without a substantial penalties. That is the nature of | 0:44:21 | 0:44:27 | |
PFI deals. Why did we go for them? Why not say, we need this hospital, | 0:44:27 | 0:44:32 | |
let's write a cheque? At the time, the Government could not afford to | 0:44:32 | 0:44:37 | |
invest that level capital. We are paying over a period of 30 years, | 0:44:37 | 0:44:42 | |
but it is not just about private finance. The substantial amount of | 0:44:42 | 0:44:52 | |
risk is transferred through PFI. That is a fixed cost to the public | 0:44:52 | 0:44:56 | |
sector, it is true, but the cost will never be higher than what is | 0:44:56 | 0:45:00 | |
agreed at the outset. If the performance is not up to scratch, | 0:45:00 | 0:45:04 | |
payments do not occur either forced up is it time the Government said, | 0:45:04 | 0:45:07 | |
if we cannot pay for things in future, we should not do them | 0:45:07 | 0:45:10 | |
because it is not fair to lumber future generations with these | 0:45:10 | 0:45:15 | |
costs? Absolutely. That is why we are trying to bring down the | 0:45:15 | 0:45:18 | |
deficit as quickly as we can. You're saying the government will | 0:45:18 | 0:45:25 | |
not be doing any more PFIs? We will only do them in future if they | 0:45:25 | 0:45:30 | |
represent good value. In the past, as we have just heard, PFI deals | 0:45:30 | 0:45:34 | |
were done because they did not appear on the Government's balance | 0:45:34 | 0:45:39 | |
sheet. They were invisible to us as voters. It was a way of pushing | 0:45:39 | 0:45:44 | |
costs under the carpet. It will all be visible from now on. There will | 0:45:44 | 0:45:48 | |
be nowhere to hide and we will only do it if it represents good value | 0:45:48 | 0:45:54 | |
in future. People will say Labour have had no choice but to embrace | 0:45:54 | 0:45:58 | |
PFIs because under Conservative rule, hospitals were not built, | 0:45:58 | 0:46:03 | |
schools were not built, wards were not painted and public services | 0:46:03 | 0:46:10 | |
when to rack and ruin. They managed to raise our national debt had at | 0:46:10 | 0:46:14 | |
the fastest rate since the end of the Second World War. The watering | 0:46:14 | 0:46:17 | |
if Forest which had not been watered for years. They borrowed so | 0:46:18 | 0:46:23 | |
much on the nation's credit card, and we're now trying to pay it back. | 0:46:23 | 0:46:27 | |
They did not think there was enough so they were even more under PFI. | 0:46:27 | 0:46:33 | |
think people exaggerate just how significant that PFI costs are. | 0:46:33 | 0:46:38 | |
Andrew Lansley made a huge cry about the cost of PFI hospitals, | 0:46:38 | 0:46:43 | |
but the PFI hospitals represent less than 1% of the NHS budget. It | 0:46:43 | 0:46:49 | |
is a significant number, but of a very, very large number. It is | 0:46:49 | 0:46:53 | |
trying to distract from the case that there is a lot of pressure on | 0:46:53 | 0:46:58 | |
health budgets, cuts in real terms because of the services that are | 0:46:58 | 0:47:02 | |
having to be delivered, and the whole basis on which hospitals get | 0:47:02 | 0:47:08 | |
paid has changed. That is a lot of care for its buildings. At the end | 0:47:08 | 0:47:13 | |
of the day it is a building. It is staff who make the health service. | 0:47:13 | 0:47:16 | |
I am sure you have been deserved need and Frenchay and what is there | 0:47:16 | 0:47:21 | |
is not sustainable. It had to be sustainable and it makes perfect | 0:47:22 | 0:47:25 | |
sense for up a new facility to replace the Southmead and Frenchay | 0:47:25 | 0:47:31 | |
hospitals. The thing now is to look forward. How can PFI be using a | 0:47:31 | 0:47:35 | |
smarter way? It is probably going to be about looking at finance | 0:47:35 | 0:47:39 | |
terms which are not for 30 years. But you'll be playing hardball when | 0:47:39 | 0:47:43 | |
you negotiate with the help the authorities? We were equally with | 0:47:43 | 0:47:48 | |
the private and public sector. Both sides end up having expert advice | 0:47:48 | 0:47:53 | |
to make sure they know exactly what do they are getting into. One of | 0:47:53 | 0:47:58 | |
the issues are with PFI, we talked about the �100,000 a day, the way | 0:47:59 | 0:48:02 | |
that the Department of Health Structured the deals, the charge as | 0:48:02 | 0:48:08 | |
it starts out is 100% subject to inflation every year. It is indexed | 0:48:08 | 0:48:13 | |
by inflation. In other PFI projects they say, we do not want that much | 0:48:13 | 0:48:17 | |
inflation and agree on lower levels. The fact that inflation is running | 0:48:17 | 0:48:21 | |
so high at the moment put on pressure if. We have to leave it | 0:48:21 | 0:48:30 | |
there for the time being. You have heard of Billy No Mates, | 0:48:30 | 0:48:35 | |
the one who sits alone. I know how they feel! That is a bit like the | 0:48:35 | 0:48:40 | |
Labour Party in the West. Just two of their MPs are in this area and | 0:48:40 | 0:48:45 | |
they do not run any councils. But Ed Miliband tried to turn all that | 0:48:45 | 0:48:50 | |
around at the council this week -- conference this week. Did he | 0:48:50 | 0:49:00 | |
0:49:00 | 0:49:12 | ||
impress the party's supporters from It really is just them. Of the | 0:49:12 | 0:49:17 | |
West's 30 MPs, only two are Labour. The party controls no consuls in | 0:49:17 | 0:49:27 | |
the region and on some they do not have a single councillor. So dawn | 0:49:27 | 0:49:37 | |
0:49:37 | 0:49:41 | ||
primero -- Kerry McCarthy and dawn Roll back a quarter of a century, | 0:49:41 | 0:49:47 | |
to when dawn first won her seat and it was actually worse. I remember | 0:49:47 | 0:49:52 | |
in 1987 when I was the only one in the south-west. Good friends and | 0:49:52 | 0:50:00 | |
colleagues lost their seats and we miss them, but what we know, is | 0:50:00 | 0:50:05 | |
that we cannot rebuild from that and can make sure we have lots were | 0:50:05 | 0:50:11 | |
MPs a gains. At least in Liverpool they were joined by a decent | 0:50:11 | 0:50:16 | |
contingent of delegates from the region. Trying out his first full | 0:50:16 | 0:50:21 | |
conference was Thomas. Sometimes, especially in a place like | 0:50:21 | 0:50:24 | |
Gloucestershire where we do not have many Labour MPs, it can be a | 0:50:24 | 0:50:28 | |
depressing time. When you come to things like this, you realise there | 0:50:28 | 0:50:32 | |
are people worse off than you, but also a lot of people think like we | 0:50:32 | 0:50:36 | |
do. We're doing the right thing and the Tories are doing the wrong | 0:50:36 | 0:50:46 | |
0:50:46 | 0:50:48 | ||
thing. And there was much to lift I am at my own man. I am going to | 0:50:48 | 0:50:53 | |
do things my own way. When I gathered together a group of party | 0:50:53 | 0:50:58 | |
members, the mood was good. They have had plenty joining them in the | 0:50:58 | 0:51:05 | |
south-west. I think it is upbeat. Her I was a member in the 1980s, | 0:51:05 | 0:51:10 | |
after the defeat in 1979. There was a long period of feuding, | 0:51:10 | 0:51:14 | |
infighting and it became very unpleasant and disruptive. There is | 0:51:14 | 0:51:19 | |
nothing of that around at the moment. If you get knocked over at | 0:51:19 | 0:51:23 | |
any general election there is a low ebb, but the Labour Party have | 0:51:23 | 0:51:33 | |
picked up extraordinary wealth. extraordinarily well. As a member | 0:51:33 | 0:51:37 | |
it restores your faith that they are like minded people all over the | 0:51:37 | 0:51:41 | |
United Kingdom's doing the same thing. The son shone brightly on | 0:51:41 | 0:51:47 | |
Labour this week and the party felt better about itself. In Liverpool, | 0:51:47 | 0:51:52 | |
and the public have not been terribly excited. More worryingly, | 0:51:52 | 0:51:56 | |
inside the conference and there has been grumbling, especially from the | 0:51:56 | 0:51:59 | |
unions. One of the biggest cheers of the | 0:51:59 | 0:52:05 | |
week was a from a speech by Dave Prentice of UNISON. Fighting | 0:52:05 | 0:52:13 | |
government changes to pensions. It is potentially very divisive. | 0:52:13 | 0:52:16 | |
Labour leadership insists there should not be strikes while talks | 0:52:16 | 0:52:21 | |
are ongoing. For those with close links to unions it is not easy. We | 0:52:21 | 0:52:26 | |
you oppose strikes if talks are still ongoing question mark there | 0:52:26 | 0:52:30 | |
is not a question of there being strikes while talks are ongoing. | 0:52:30 | 0:52:35 | |
And if negotiations are there, you should be at the table negotiating. | 0:52:35 | 0:52:39 | |
As I understand that the Government is that the table but not prepared | 0:52:39 | 0:52:45 | |
to negotiate for. On this, and much else, a Labour must watch and wait. | 0:52:45 | 0:52:49 | |
Their fate will turn on how the coalition performs. | 0:52:49 | 0:52:53 | |
The Conservatives gather this week for their party conference, but | 0:52:53 | 0:52:57 | |
with gloomy skies hanging over the economy, they will be forced to ask | 0:52:57 | 0:53:01 | |
if they are on the right track with their economic policies. And there | 0:53:01 | 0:53:05 | |
is the big question of how to win an outright majority of the next | 0:53:05 | 0:53:09 | |
elections. John Penrose is still with me. Can | 0:53:09 | 0:53:14 | |
you name one thing that has gone right for you about the economy? | 0:53:14 | 0:53:19 | |
Yes, I can. We have managed to start bringing the deficit under | 0:53:19 | 0:53:25 | |
control. Without getting treated the same way as Greece has been. | 0:53:25 | 0:53:28 | |
When we took over, it was a real possibility that the financial | 0:53:28 | 0:53:32 | |
markets would go after Britain in the same way that they went after | 0:53:32 | 0:53:38 | |
Greece. But it is going up, isn't it? It is coming down from this | 0:53:38 | 0:53:44 | |
year onwards. Unemployment is up, inflation is high, jobless totals | 0:53:44 | 0:53:50 | |
are going up. It is a completely awful in-tray which we have been | 0:53:50 | 0:53:57 | |
left with. You are now 15 months on, sixteen. The sorts of measures | 0:53:57 | 0:54:01 | |
which you have to tick, any Economist will say, it takes a | 0:54:01 | 0:54:06 | |
while for that stuff to start feeding through. If you look at the | 0:54:06 | 0:54:11 | |
people and the Bank of England, at they reckon an interest rate | 0:54:11 | 0:54:14 | |
decision they take today will feed through in two years' time. There | 0:54:14 | 0:54:19 | |
is nothing on the horizon, where is the sunshine? We even had a wet | 0:54:19 | 0:54:25 | |
summer! The tourism industry is one of the rays of sunshine. It is | 0:54:25 | 0:54:29 | |
doing well. It is growing faster than the rest of the economy. The | 0:54:29 | 0:54:33 | |
economy is still growing, not as fast as we would like. That is in | 0:54:33 | 0:54:36 | |
spite of the fact there has been awful international economic news | 0:54:36 | 0:54:45 | |
as well. People have been worrying about double-dip recession, we are | 0:54:45 | 0:54:49 | |
not in that territory and a lot of other countries are. We have of | 0:54:49 | 0:54:53 | |
what is happening in the Eurozone, we're doing better than them albeit | 0:54:53 | 0:55:00 | |
difficult. With people and Weston- super-Mare feeling the squeeze, how | 0:55:00 | 0:55:07 | |
long is their patients? I think people, everybody I talk to, is | 0:55:07 | 0:55:11 | |
worried. They are feeling the squeeze. People also understand | 0:55:11 | 0:55:16 | |
this will take some time. I do not think people expect this to be | 0:55:16 | 0:55:22 | |
quick. It will take four-five years to get the deficit down to zero. | 0:55:22 | 0:55:25 | |
That is before we even start repaying the debt., what are your | 0:55:25 | 0:55:31 | |
chances of winning an outright majority next time? I am torn | 0:55:31 | 0:55:34 | |
because it is always wrong to take the electorate for granted, you | 0:55:35 | 0:55:39 | |
should never do that. I do not want to take anything for granted, but I | 0:55:39 | 0:55:43 | |
hope we will do well and get more seats than we have now falls up | 0:55:43 | 0:55:49 | |
with the Lib Dems in tow? We will have to wait and see. We're aiming | 0:55:49 | 0:55:53 | |
to increase the number of seats each time but saw the other two | 0:55:53 | 0:55:58 | |
raider parties. We do come to an agreement with the Lib Dems, | 0:55:58 | 0:56:01 | |
perhaps you do not run in Weston- super-Mare, we will not run | 0:56:01 | 0:56:05 | |
somewhere else? He would have to ask David Cameron and Nick Clegg | 0:56:05 | 0:56:12 | |
about that one. I will! That it is it from the West this week. The | 0:56:12 | 0:56:16 | |
Politics Show continues in Manchester. If you want to get in | 0:56:16 | 0:56:19 |