11/07/2014 The Week in Parliament


11/07/2014

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16`year`old is due back in court in September. Time now for the Week in

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Parliament. Hello and Welcome to The Week In

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Parliament. A dark cloud hung over Westminster. Has there been a

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cover`up of a politicians' paedophile ring? The investigation

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found that 114 potentially relevant files were not available. Most of

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these files were probably destroyed. There was talk that an MP was going

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to use the ancient right of parliamentary privilege to name

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names. But, is it a weapon that's past its sell`by date? What I would

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like to see is parliamentary privilege brought up to date and

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codified so that we had a very clear set of rules. Also: The Northern

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cities of England. All parties want them to become an economic

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powerhouse. Can it be done? It is about getting rid of the factors

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that hold the North back. We want to see the rest of the English regions

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and Scotland and Wales also improving and computing and getting

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investment and jobs. And we'll have the latest news from the campaign

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trail in the Scottish referendum. But first the political world has

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gone through a dark week, with suspicion lurking in parts of

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Westminster. There was talk of an establishment cover`up of child

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abuse that had involved politicians from a previous era. A dossier

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compiled in the early 1980s by the MP Geoffrey Dickens making specific

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accusations was nowhere to be found any longer. Also missing, it then

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transpired, were more than 100 files concerned with child abuse

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allegations. On Monday the Home Secretary spoke about the results of

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an investigation last year by the Home Office. The investigation found

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that 114 potentially relevant files were not available. These are

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presumed by the Home Office and the investigator destroyed, missing or

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not found. The investigator made clear that he found no evidence to

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suggest that the files have been removed or destroyed

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inappropriately. The investigation found no record of specific

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allegations by Mr Dickens of child sex abuse by prominent public

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figures. She announced the setting up of an inquiry panel to look into

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how public bodies have handled child abuse claims. It will begin its work

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as soon as possible after the appointment of the chairmen and

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other members of the panel. Given the scope of its work it is not

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likely to report before the general election. Child victims were not

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listened to, were not heard, were not protected and too many

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institutions lets children down. Reforms to those individual

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institutions must not be delayed but isolated reforms are not enough. In

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the 1970s and the 1980s there was a confusion between sexual liberation

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and let `` sexual exploitation and that gave the cover of the abuse of

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some children to escape challenge. Much progress has been made but

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Victim Support child abuse are being blamed for their own exploitation.

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Most of the discussion we have had today has been around historical

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cases, is my right honourable friend confident that if such a bundle of

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documents was handed to her today it would be treated in a much better

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manner? I would hope that if a similar sort of bundle of documents

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was handed into the Home Office today they would ensure that those

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documents went to the police and that they were properly

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investigated. The missing files were next day raised with the top civil

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servant at the Home Office. Do you know who authorised the removal of

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the destruction of these files? No, I do not. This is the issue with the

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114. Most of these files were probably destroyed because the kind

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of topics that they covered would have been subject to the normal file

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destruction procedures that were in place at that time but they cannot

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be confirmed to have been destroyed because there is not a proper log of

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what was destroyed on what was not. Whoever deleted them must have been

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a registrar. Is there no possibility that someone else could have done?

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The one absolute in this is that I am not going to make absolute

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assurances because I simply cannot. We are talking about a long time

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ago. And the issue became top priority for Prime Minister's

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Questions. Does the Prime Minister agree that all enquiries including

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by the police and where he has setup must go where ever the evidence

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leads them in whatever institution the country, including our own, to

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get up what happens? Child abuse is a despicable crime and the victims

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live with the horror for the rest of their lives and it is absolutely

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vital whether it is the two enquiries announced by the Home

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Secretary or the vital police enquiries that are being carried out

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that no stone is left unturned. The horror of the Jimmy Savile and Rolf

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Harris cases just show what people were able to get away with. It was

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almost as if on occasion they were committing crimes in plain sight and

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it took far too long to get to the bottom of what happened and for

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justice to be done. David Cameron. Throughout the week there was

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speculation that the Labour MP Simon Danczuk might use the cover of

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parliamentary privilege, which in effect gives a politician legal

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immunity, to name a person or persons who'd been the subject of

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the child abuse accusations. The use of Privilege has long been an

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invaluable means for MPs to right wrongs but there have been occasions

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when a person's reputation has been unfairly ruined because it turned

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out there was no supporting evidence. So, do the rules on

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parliamentary privilege need changing? I spoke to Richard Gordon

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QC of the Constitution Society who wants to see reform and to the

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Liberal Democrat Member of Parliament John Hemming. First I

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asked Mr Gordon for a quick definition of parliamentary

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privilege. Parliamentary privilege is the claim by Parliament to be

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able to debate freely and without interference from any other place,

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including the courts. What value is that? It is extremely important in a

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democratic society that Parliament should be able to conduct its

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functions effectively and MPs should be able to freely speak in the

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chamber without fear of interference by anyone else. It started off as a

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claim to freedom of interference by the king and the Crown but it has

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gradually become much more, a relationship with the courts. John

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Hemming, you are a serial user of parliamentary privilege and you have

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used it in a variety of ways, why do you use it so much? Why do I concern

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myself when things are going wrong in the judicial system? We have a

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constitutional structure and if things are going wrong in secret

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courts then I raise it in Parliament. I have spoken on a

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number of occasions about flaws in family courts decisions and that is

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potentially a contempt of court if said so outside Parliament. I have

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done an interview on Brazilian television which if it were

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broadcast in England would have been subject to the law. It is important

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to have the facility to talk about what is going wrong in the secret

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court. You famously brought up the name of Ryan Giggs in the Commons

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chamber and when you did that you were heavily criticised the

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following day. I was criticised but that instance was not contempt of

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court because 24 million people knew his name and if you followed spy

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catcher judgement where something being published in Australia means

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it is not confidential in England then if it is published in Scotland

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it is not confidential in England so that was not a good example. It was

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seen as a frivolous use of parliamentary privilege. To be

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honest the fact that they were trying to imprison 75,000 people for

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tweeting something highlights the absurdity and I was highlighting the

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absurdity of attempting to punish 75,000 people for making a joke. Do

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you want to see a fundamental change to parliamentary privilege? Some of

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what John has said illustrates why. The thing is that parliamentary

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privilege can be misused. To say something has gone wrong with the

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judicial system so I can broadcast it throughout the land could be seen

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by judges as an interference with the independence of the judiciary. I

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would like to see parliamentary privilege brought up to date and

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codified so that we had a very clear set of rules, rather than an act of

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Parliament that goes back to 1689. That is the sole basis in law about

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which we have rules about parliamentary privilege. When you

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say codified you mean a new act? Yes, as they have in Australia and

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many places where people know exactly what Parliament can and

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can't do and what it can and can't say. It is in reality flouting the

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law. What my colleague here is suggesting is that we should not be

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allowed to criticise judges in Parliament when in fact it is very

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clear that Parliament has a function for criticising judges and it has

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the power to remove judges under the 1701 settlement act. This goes

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beyond what John is talking about, the freedom of MPs to talk about

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matters they perceive to be in the national interest. It actually

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involves committees of Parliament and many things. Would you take

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privilege away from all the select committees? No, I would not. Having

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privilege on a Select Committee is important. It is a proceeding in

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Parliament and it is subject to parliamentary privilege. The real

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concern about committees is that some of them tend to go over the top

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and demand information that other laws prevent them from having. What

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limit would you set? Where would the boundary of parliamentary privilege

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be? The boundary would in my opinion come to this, if a witness in front

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of the committee had a good reason for not answering a question, they

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could put that good reason and have a considered and certainly not have

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it judged by a committee, however eminent, as being in some way a

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contempt of Parliament. What about the Rebekah Brooks incident several

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years ago? She said to the Select Committee that her newspapers had

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paid the police for information. That could not then be used at her

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trial because it was covered by parliamentary privilege. There is

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also the Pepper versus Hart issue which... Does that show it breaking

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down? We have a clear disagreement here. I think it is important for

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backbench politicians to be able to criticise judicial processes,

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subject to the sub judice motion so we have a principle that we do not

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criticise them before they are made and influenced the decision but you

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raise concerns as to how things have happened in the judicial system

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after the decision is made. It is an important part of how the system

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works and I would not want to see parliamentary privilege restricted

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so that judges have control over Parliament. Where we are in the

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present climate, with talk of a Westminster paedophile ring and an

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MP who is thought to be using parliamentary privilege, that

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creates a danger when names got out and they are guilty in the public

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mind without any evidence. That did happen on Twitter of course but it

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has not happened recently in Parliament. Will that lead to a

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change? The point to remember about Parliament is that we do not have

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complete freedom of speech. You are still subject to the rules of the

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house and the decisions of the standards and privileges committee

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say you do not have complete freedom of speech at all. I am tempted to

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say if it ain't broke, why fix it? It would be great if it was not

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broken but the answer is this, the act of Parliament is several hundred

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years old and we need a new one to cope with the modern climate. You

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have mentioned Twitter and John has mentioned what has gone wrong with

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judicial cases but the relationship between law and politics should not

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be governed by the mistrust of judges, it should be governed by

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judges and politicians working together harmoniously in the modern

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age. Thank you very much for joining us.

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Some thoughts on privilege. Now a look at some of the other stories

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around Parliament in the last seven days. Labour has accused the

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Government of deception over the introduction of Universal Credit,

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the new welfare system that's been hindered by IT problems. Labour say

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MPs have been given mixed messages about whether or not the Treasury

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has officially signed off the project. The Treasury have approved

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funding for the universal credit programme in 2013, 2014 and 2015 in

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line with the plan I announced in December last year. The same simple

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question has now been answered eight contradictory ways. Not everybody

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can be telling the truth. There has been so much beating about the bush

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that it feels as though this house has been misled by a government

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engaged in a deliberate act of deception. This is the best instance

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of a man in an ill fitting anorak dancing on the head of a pin. I

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think it is quite pathetic. The Birmingham schools inspected in the

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wake of claims that hardline governing bodies were promoting

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Islamic extremism, the Chief Inspector of Schools describes what

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was found. One of the real, real upsetting things about what we found

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in Birmingham and I found it personally upsetting talking to head

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teachers is that people were frightened about speaking. One head

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teacher had to be interviewed in a supermarket car park because she was

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so fearful. We text, we talk, we send e`mails. All that personal

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information will still be open to scrutiny from the police and

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security services but only after an emergency bill races through

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Parliament in the next week. There's broad support, but not everyone is

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happy. It is as a result of a last`minute deal between elites with

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little scrutiny by Parliament or civic society, and the rushed

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legislation might unravel. British people are not stupid and they are

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not ideological when it comes to this type of thing. Why can they not

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have time to discuss it with their elected representatives? The Home

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Secretary has rushed this through the house on the basis of emergency.

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The case was put to the ECJ sometime ago and it took some time to come to

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its conclusion on eighth April, so if there was an emergency it was a

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predictable one by April the 8th. This legislation we face the

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prospect of losing access to this data overnight with the consequence

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that police investigations will suddenly go dark and criminals will

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escape justice. Unlike the Commons, no`one person keeps order in this

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House. Members of the House of Lords wonder whether self`regulation

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actually works at daily Question Time. The jostling and bullying in

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order to ask the supplementary, people who do not like this do not

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take part. It is undignified. I am sure the leader would agree with me

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that question time in this house is both the best of this house and

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sometimes the worst. Most of the time, I think, most of the time, the

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House operates pretty well at giving way to people and giving people the

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chance. Lord Hill. The economic recovery is under way and are we all

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benefiting or is there an ever widening split between thriving

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South and the stagnating North? This week, Labour promised to vote

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devolved ?30 billion of spending power to the regions of England to

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boost growth away from London. The Conservative Chancellor George

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Osborne, whose constituency lies near Manchester, has said he would

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want to turn the northern cities into an economic powerhouse. Two MPs

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from either side of the Pennines came into our studio, Wigan's Lisa

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Nandy and Stockton's James Wharton. I first asked Lisa Nandy if I was

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right in saying she wanted to take economic power away from London. To

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be blunt, no, you're not right at all. This is not about taking away

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from one part of the country to give to another part, this is about

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recognising that we need to grow our economy and if you look at countries

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like Germany that have done this successfully, they have eight

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centres of regional growth that really rival Berlin in terms of how

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to grow the economy, create jobs and create output. This is about not

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taking away from London, but getting rid of the factors that hold the

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North back. You are a Member of Parliament in the north`east, there

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is a large and the London sentiment among people and councillors in the

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north`east? You do hear that but I do not know what that's should be

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about in the debate. `` what that should be about. It is about what we

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can do to grow the regions, spread prosperity, not talk about the

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unfairness of London being a central hub. The reality is London is a

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capital city, a great global financial centre. It is going to

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continue to be hopefully for many years to come. We want to see the

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rest of the English regions and Scotland and Wales also improving,

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competing, getting investment, creating jobs and securing the

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long`term growth we need. We have been here before, we have had

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regional assemblies talked about, directly elected mayors and each

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time the public rejects this. There have been substantial no votes in

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referendums. Why should this be any different? I campaigned against it

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in my home region. We are talking about yet another layer of elected

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representatives in regional assemblies, and people are not

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generally predisposed towards that. One of the things to be careful of

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is that we talk about this as if regions are set in stone. It has to

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be, the north`east region is the building block. I think that is a

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mistake. The Greater Manchester Council campaign against having a

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Manchester Mayor, quite strongly. James is right in that nobody thinks

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it is a good idea to be campaigning for more politicians especially at

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the moment. The debate about regional assemblies especially in

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the north`east is very similar, more layers of bureaucracy, additional

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politicians. Nobody is arguing in favour of that. What we are talking

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about is handing real power to the regions and James talked about...

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What does that mean? You talk about handling power, are you talking

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about devolution? It is devolution of funding and autonomy to make

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decisions. You can compete on a fairer playing field then, but this

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is about a lot about collaboration. If you look for example at one of

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the great challenges that we have in my region and in James's, which is

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around current transport infrastructure, our challenge is to

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connect up those cities in the North better. We have to negotiate that.

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You are out of the city, you're not out on the M62 belt of the

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conurbations. How can the north`east change its status? All this talk of

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an economic powerhouse does not seem to include the north`east. We have

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had a city deal recently, announced by Greg Clark. He is the cities

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minister, that is great news that he is the cities Minister, that is

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great news for Teeside. It is not just about these clearly defined

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areas, and to try and find a point difference, this clear agreement

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across the political divide, about the need to devolve, promote the

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economies of our regions. We have differences of opinion about how it

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should be done. One of the challenges is getting the right

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infrastructure of accountability. If you give people control about

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spending and money so they can adapt it to local priorities, you have to

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ensure there are the right mechanisms to hold them to account.

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From a former Conservative point of view, you would probably want more

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Conservatives in the north`east of England? Yes, I hope we will have

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more in the next election. George Osborne is talking about high`speed

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three, it is pie in the sky or is it serious? The point is that this is

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serious, we had have HS2 which I support and we are working on it. If

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you are given the authority to be able to negotiate that deal to

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politicians and leaders in the north`east and north`west, Yorkshire

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and Humber, it is possible that what they might have said was, firstly,

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we will start building here. And secondly, connect the great cities

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of the North. The reason for all of this is that we think communities

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are better placed to make decisions for themselves. The leader of

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Wakefield Council has said Yorkshire should be an independent state. That

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would solve everything, we would not go on having to discuss anything,

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has he got a point? There is a little town in my constituency that

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has had a parish poll and they are going back into Yorkshire because

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they are sick of being in the Stockton on Tees. Then you would be

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to have a dependence in Lancashire? Then you would have to argue about

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the capital, and I would be arguing for Wigan! Thank you for joining us.

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Moving on for the North of England, next up is Scotland. Two months to

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the referendum, here is the news of the week.

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It's a date, Alistair Darling and Alex Salmond have finally named the

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day for the two`hour debate. On August the 5th, they will be joined

:21:55.:21:57.

by an audience of 350 asking questions. The First Minister has

:21:58.:22:01.

vowed to continue his rough wooing of David Cameron for a further

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debate. The Channel 4 documentary Dispatches revealed business leader

:22:19.:22:20.

complaints of the aggressive tactics used by Scottish ministers as the

:22:21.:22:40.

independence debate intensifies. The SNP said the new president of the

:22:41.:22:42.

European Commission Jean`Claude Juncker is a man that can do

:22:43.:22:46.

business with them. He said he would respect the referendum. The prounion

:22:47.:22:49.

campaign has amassed a war chest twice the size of its nationalist

:22:50.:22:52.

rivals. They said the no campaign is property bankers. And an independent

:22:53.:22:54.

Scotland could get millions of pounds on an independent European

:22:55.:22:57.

Space Agency should independents happen. `` should independence

:22:58.:23:05.

happen in 2016, could we see the saltire flying on the moon?

:23:06.:23:22.

Voting is on September 18. Now, we have all been in the

:23:23.:23:25.

restaurant where the next table is having a terribly loud happy

:23:26.:23:28.

birthday celebration. It can be very annoying! The Commons has in the

:23:29.:23:42.

last couple of days gone into an outbreak of happy birthday. If you

:23:43.:23:45.

do not like birthday mentions, please look away now. My 65th

:23:46.:23:48.

birthday. Here, here! Retire! Can I come on my birthday, simply

:23:49.:23:51.

reflect... Minister! May I wish my honourable friend a happy birthday.

:23:52.:23:54.

And on this day, wish my sister happy birthday as well. And the Week

:23:55.:24:09.

in Parliament wishes them all a very happy birthday. Warm at the

:24:10.:24:10.

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