02/02/2012 This Week


02/02/2012

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 02/02/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Tonight on This Week: Money, money, money, must be funny, in the rich

:00:16.:00:19.

man's world. As Britain's most infamous banker, Mr Fred Goodwin,

:00:19.:00:22.

keeps his pension but loses his knighthood, and his replacement,

:00:22.:00:25.

RBS boss Stephen Hester, is forced to turn down his �1 million bonus,

:00:25.:00:35.
:00:35.:00:37.

are politicians playing a dangerous game? If I had a little money...

:00:37.:00:40.

The FT's top woman, and one of the few people who predicted the

:00:40.:00:43.

financial crash, Gillian Tett, takes a look at the rich man's

:00:43.:00:53.
:00:53.:00:53.

world. This week I've been basher banker but beneath the escape

:00:53.:00:58.

quoting -- scapegoating, how do Government divide up resources and

:00:58.:01:01.

create a system that people think is fair?

:01:01.:01:04.

There are big bucks flying around this weekend, as America prepares

:01:04.:01:07.

for the Super Bowl, the BBC's Anita Anand gets kitted out and checks

:01:07.:01:16.

out Cameron's big-game tactics on Europe. Times have got ugly on the

:01:16.:01:20.

Westminster gridiron, with both leaders padding up, heads down and

:01:20.:01:30.
:01:30.:01:31.

barging one another, with full force.

:01:32.:01:37.

Money doesn't necessarily keep the blues away. Former Blair spin

:01:37.:01:40.

doctor Alastair Campbell says it's time for politicians to come clean

:01:40.:01:45.

on the issue of depression. might be money, money, money for

:01:45.:01:51.

some, but if it is happiness you are after, never forget money can't

:01:51.:01:59.

buy you love. Meed ye- and mental health campaigner Ruby Wax is

:01:59.:02:09.
:02:09.:02:11.

spreading the word. In a This Week world.

:02:11.:02:14.

Evening all. Welcome to This Week, the show that's proof beyond

:02:14.:02:17.

peradventure that you don't need a large performance-related bonus or

:02:17.:02:20.

a knighthood for banking services to be held in total contempt by the

:02:20.:02:29.

You just have to follow Question Time every Thursday night. Think of

:02:29.:02:32.

us as a diversion from reality, like politicians whipping up a

:02:32.:02:35.

lynch mob to strip one banker of his knighthood and another of his

:02:35.:02:41.

bonus. Yes, interest rates may be rock bottom, the pound has lost a

:02:41.:02:45.

quarter of its value, the Bank of England is printing money like

:02:45.:02:49.

there is no tomorrow, the Government is running massive

:02:49.:02:54.

deficits, and still there is no growth in the economy. But at least

:02:54.:02:58.

Fred "The Shred" has lost his knighthood and Stephen Hester isn't

:02:58.:03:03.

getting his bonus. Talk about bread and circuses. The Romans have

:03:03.:03:10.

nothing on our little Caesars. We also had London MP David Lammy's

:03:10.:03:14.

claim that the people who trashed our cities last summer might have

:03:14.:03:18.

shown more restraint if only their parents had been free to spank them

:03:18.:03:22.

when they were toddlers. Interesting, David. Then again, Mr

:03:22.:03:24.

Lammy was the Celebrity Mastermind contestant who thought Marie

:03:24.:03:27.

Antoinette won the Nobel Prize for Physics in 1903. And that Henry

:03:27.:03:35.

VIII was succeeded by Henry VII! LAUGHTER Google it if you don't

:03:35.:03:39.

believe me. Speaking of those whose minds go blank as soon as they're

:03:39.:03:42.

asked a simple question, I'm joined on the sofa tonight by two of

:03:42.:03:45.

Westminster's weakest links - the Dusty Bin and "bit of bully" of

:03:45.:03:49.

late night political chat. I speak, of course, of Michael Portillo and

:03:49.:03:55.

Alastair Campbell. Good evening to you both. Good evening. Michael,

:03:55.:03:59.

your moment of the week. I've blanked. No, the sending of Prince

:03:59.:04:03.

William to the Falklands I think, because it is immensely symbolic,

:04:03.:04:09.

that here we are at the 30th anniversary of the war. There is

:04:09.:04:13.

argy-bargy in the South Atlantic over the oil and the continuing

:04:13.:04:17.

Argentine claim to the islands. I think the British Government

:04:17.:04:20.

response is wonderfully robust. We are sending a member of the Royal

:04:20.:04:24.

Family there. We are putting up two fingers to Argentina. We are saying

:04:24.:04:28.

these people are entitled to self dem nation. Having fought a war for

:04:28.:04:33.

them 30 years ago there is simply no question even of debating the

:04:33.:04:39.

sovereignty of these islands. more important than William we are

:04:39.:04:49.
:04:49.:04:53.

sending a �1 billion ship, which apparently can locate 300 incoming

:04:53.:04:58.

at once. This boat, it is actually a ship. You know what I mean.

:04:58.:05:08.
:05:08.:05:10.

moved on since the 30 years since. I'm always wary about the in vun

:05:10.:05:16.

raability of ships. Alastair, your moment. It was the moment when I

:05:16.:05:21.

thought Ed Miliband had a direct hit on David Cameron, who looked

:05:21.:05:23.

extremely uncomfortable. You are talking about Tuesday afternoon?

:05:23.:05:27.

The Europe debate and his line that a veto is not for life it is just

:05:27.:05:32.

for Christmas. I always thought the veto was a ridiculous thing. We are

:05:32.:05:35.

going to talk about it later. don't think David Cameron thought

:05:36.:05:43.

it through and he is now having to backtrack and back-pedal and Ed is

:05:43.:05:50.

more confident, and I think he him at PMQs as well. It was his best

:05:50.:05:53.

performance to date as Labour leader.

:05:53.:05:56.

Bankers - doncha just love em'? Where would we be without them?

:05:56.:05:59.

Possibly up to �1 trillion better off for starters. But with the

:05:59.:06:01.

defenestration of Fred Goodwin and his knighthood, have we finally got

:06:01.:06:04.

our man, or are their other guilty men who appeased an out-of-control

:06:04.:06:06.

financial sector, who should be wary of pitchfork-wielding

:06:06.:06:16.
:06:16.:06:17.

villagers bent on retribution? And probably a bit of redistribution as

:06:17.:06:21.

well! And has society got what it takes to deal with the need to play

:06:21.:06:23.

the blame game? The woman who spotted the crash coming, US

:06:24.:06:26.

managing editor of the Financial Times, Gillian Tett, is here with

:06:26.:06:36.
:06:36.:06:49.

The theme of This Week has been bash a banker. Firstly Stephen

:06:49.:06:55.

Hester of RBS was forced to give back his bonus and then Sir Fred

:06:55.:07:00.

Goodwin became plain old Mr Goodwin. It is not equivalent of the bankers

:07:00.:07:04.

being put in the stocks as they were in the Middle Ages, but

:07:04.:07:07.

politicians of every stripe have been queuing up to pelt words at

:07:07.:07:11.

the bankers. But is it fair to be bashing bankers in this way? If you

:07:11.:07:17.

talk to people working in finance many say no, and many in business

:07:17.:07:25.

say no. Some said lay off the politicians - lay off the bankers

:07:25.:07:32.

for a bit. They said the bankers had contributed to the crisis but

:07:32.:07:39.

it was rating agencies, the public, and they should share the blame.

:07:39.:07:42.

There are lots of people who say we shouldn't let the bankers off the

:07:42.:07:46.

hook, because the reality is that although they weren't the only ones

:07:46.:07:49.

who created the crisis, they certainly got richer than many

:07:49.:07:53.

other people as a result. But perhaps the really interesting

:07:53.:07:58.

question to ask is why this war of words is erupting now. Is the

:07:58.:08:01.

answer is behind this battle about banking there's a fight for

:08:01.:08:05.

resources going on, in particular what people are asking is how are

:08:05.:08:10.

they going to divide Apple pie when that pie is stagnant, if not

:08:10.:08:17.

shrinking? Maybe it is not entirely fair to blame Sir Fred or now plain

:08:17.:08:21.

old Mr Goodwin for the problems. But the reality is that people are

:08:21.:08:28.

angry and they are looking for somebody to blame. As economys ale

:08:28.:08:33.

-- ail this year, the sense of anger and finger pointing is likely

:08:33.:08:37.

to rise. The question for politicians and all of us is once

:08:37.:08:47.
:08:47.:08:47.

we get wrond the finger pointing can we actually find a fix? That

:08:47.:08:52.

was Gillian Tett. Welcome to This Week. Let me begin with a yes, no.

:08:52.:08:58.

Was it right that Mr Goodwin as he is now was stripped of his

:08:58.:09:06.

knighthood? Alastair Campbell. Totally relevant. Irrelevant?

:09:06.:09:11.

Totally relevant. The game was yes or no. As a politician I would have

:09:11.:09:17.

created a bit of a fuss. But does it matter? Not really. Mike Snell

:09:17.:09:21.

Yes. I would agree with Alastair but on balance I would say yes. It

:09:21.:09:25.

is not key issue though. Waut it right that Stephen Hester should

:09:25.:09:29.

effectively have been bullied by politicians and public opinion, the

:09:29.:09:34.

threat of a vote in Parliament as well, into giving up his �1 million

:09:34.:09:40.

bonus? No. Was it right that he didn't take the whole of his bonus?

:09:40.:09:46.

Yes. Was it right that he was bullied? No. I will Just Say No.

:09:46.:09:51.

I'll play the game. You are very good. I want to come back next year.

:09:51.:09:58.

I don't. I'm on materialier one. Sorry Andrew. And just to be boring,

:09:58.:10:03.

I would say no as well. He was brought in to do a difficult job.

:10:03.:10:06.

He's done it April well and changing the rules halfway through

:10:06.:10:11.

his contract is not good. And not for the first time the This Week

:10:11.:10:16.

panel is all over the place. Politicians, they may play to the

:10:16.:10:22.

public at times, and perhaps they did with the Hester bonus, but they

:10:22.:10:27.

can't ignore public opinion about bankers and public opinion about

:10:27.:10:32.

bangers remains very strong. Even as 2008 disappears into history.

:10:32.:10:36.

Absolutely. People are angry. I think there are two factors here.

:10:36.:10:39.

Firstly they are angry because there hasn't been a sense of

:10:39.:10:47.

closure. You've, in the sense that you've seen people put into prison

:10:47.:10:54.

and if you believe in capitalism you should not only be rewarded for

:10:54.:10:58.

success but suffer the consequence of failure. The Americans are

:10:58.:11:04.

better at that. They certainly are. In the savings and loans crisis,

:11:04.:11:08.

2,000 people have been prosecuted or put into jail. How many have we

:11:08.:11:14.

had in Britain? Hardly any. And there's been no closure, no sengs

:11:14.:11:19.

of resolution. The public, if you look at Iraq, a lot of people are

:11:19.:11:24.

angry about Iraq There is the Chilcot Inquiry. Phone hacking,

:11:24.:11:29.

there is the Leveson Inquiry. And on banking, are we seriously saying

:11:29.:11:36.

that because Fred Goodwin lost his knighthood that's the end of it?

:11:36.:11:42.

The rectors are in denial. The politicians are in -- the reactors

:11:42.:11:47.

are in denial. The politicians are in denial. I haven't seen any of

:11:47.:11:56.

them up before a it?-style inquiry where they are forced to account

:11:56.:11:59.

for themselves. You think they still don't get it. And they don't

:11:59.:12:03.

get the basic economics. The reason they are making huge profits is

:12:03.:12:09.

that they are undercapitalised. The taxpayer subsidised them. Therefore

:12:09.:12:12.

because their profits are artificial, their bonuses ought to

:12:12.:12:16.

be trimmed back to the level that would be payable if their profits

:12:16.:12:21.

represented the amount of capital they would need to maintain. The I

:12:21.:12:27.

suspect their proof whites be zero or below. You mix with these major

:12:27.:12:30.

bankers. You've just come from Davos. Do they really still note

:12:30.:12:36.

get it? Here is an interesting thing. Once a year the World

:12:36.:12:40.

Economic Forum asks the attendees what is the biggest thing that will

:12:40.:12:45.

pose a threat to global stability this year. This year for the first

:12:45.:12:49.

time they said income disparities, inequality and problems with

:12:49.:12:54.

inequity. They are getting scared. Did they collect another �5 million

:12:54.:12:59.

bonus? They've seen Occupy Wall Street, the demonstrations in St

:12:59.:13:03.

Paul's. The Arab Spring, tangible evidence of the degree to which

:13:03.:13:06.

these pressures are starting to essentially create instability.

:13:06.:13:10.

think that's a good thing. I think Michael is right, they've got

:13:10.:13:14.

themselves into the mind set that part of their package is a multi-

:13:14.:13:20.

million pound bonus. If it is not deserved they don't get it. It is

:13:20.:13:23.

slowly fall into place that there is such a thing as public service,

:13:23.:13:27.

even in the private sector, and that you can get very well paid,

:13:27.:13:32.

did you a good job but you stop taking these ludicrous telephone

:13:32.:13:36.

numbers at the end of the year as a matter of course. The people

:13:36.:13:39.

providing the capital, the shareholders have been driven into

:13:39.:13:42.

poverty. It's a small bunch of employers who are making off with

:13:43.:13:49.

all the money. Who haven't missed a penny of their own money. I haven't

:13:49.:13:55.

seen anyone who can tell me whether the profits of RBS was paid in a

:13:55.:13:59.

dividend to shareholders. For the last two or three decades it's been

:13:59.:14:02.

taken for granted that bankers earned a lot of money. The last

:14:02.:14:06.

time that mentality ruled was in the Wall Street Crash just before

:14:06.:14:10.

it in 1920s in America. What happened after that was after 1929

:14:10.:14:16.

for a few years the bankers carried on being paid a lot. And then it

:14:16.:14:22.

began to readjust. For three or four decades after World War II

:14:22.:14:27.

bankers were paid like other pronerbls. Big changes in mentality

:14:27.:14:37.
:14:37.:14:38.

British banks have been bailed out. We were through a period of

:14:38.:14:40.

relatively prosperity. At the people at the bottom and middle

:14:40.:14:43.

have been doing relatively OK. The people at the top of the sword and

:14:43.:14:45.

they've thought people at the bottom and middle sort of not

:14:46.:14:49.

complaining too much means they can carry on soaring. These people are

:14:49.:14:52.

complaining a lot. Gillian is right, they're beginning to get it.

:14:52.:14:56.

Whether they get it to the extent they do enough about it, I doubt.

:14:56.:15:01.

The coalition, Mr Cameron and Mr Osbourne, they've kind of tried to

:15:01.:15:05.

run with the pack on this. They've made a lot of speeches about it.

:15:05.:15:11.

But when push came to shove did it not turn out to be grandstanding?

:15:11.:15:16.

This panel here agreed 100% that we shouldn't be telling Stephen Hester

:15:16.:15:20.

how much you should be paid. That is the problem. In the end, the

:15:20.:15:23.

Conservative majority in the Government believes in capitalism

:15:23.:15:26.

and it believes in free enterprise t doesn't believe the Government

:15:26.:15:29.

should tell people how much they're paid. In the end politicians are

:15:29.:15:34.

desperate to find somebody to deflect the anger and bankers are

:15:34.:15:39.

very convenient. We are heading twaordz huge -- towards huge cuts

:15:39.:15:46.

and - exactly. The scapegoat thing, Fred Goodwin, I did end up feeling

:15:46.:15:52.

sorry for Fred, the guy has been richly humiliated, no matter how

:15:52.:15:57.

much his pension is worth. His life is effectively over. What David

:15:57.:16:00.

Cameron should do is actually set up a proper truth and

:16:00.:16:04.

reconciliation, a proper reckoning. What went wrong. Through the whole

:16:04.:16:08.

period so the politicians - to be fair politicians are held to

:16:08.:16:11.

account but the regulators, and the bankers and the ratings agencies

:16:11.:16:15.

and all the rest are put there in front of a serious distinguished

:16:15.:16:20.

panel and asked to account for themselves. Cow say that the

:16:20.:16:24.

banking crisis has been important than the hacking scandal, to the

:16:24.:16:30.

country. Cow indeed. -- you could indeed. On the other side of the

:16:30.:16:33.

Atlantic is it the same banker bashing? It's interesting what's

:16:33.:16:37.

happening right now, there has been a commission to look into it, it

:16:37.:16:40.

wasn't widely effective. There has been a lot of anger towards bankers,

:16:40.:16:44.

not the same degree of anger about the level of money they're earning.

:16:44.:16:48.

Frankly, it's bigger than anything we have seen Stephen Hester earn.

:16:48.:16:53.

What there is, is tkproeing awareness of this issue about

:16:53.:16:58.

fairness. If you look at the... presidential elections will be

:16:58.:17:04.

about that. It's good news for Obama this. It helps. We have come

:17:04.:17:09.

to an end but I don't think this has come to an end, Mr Bob

:17:09.:17:14.

Diamond's bonus is coming down, and half a billion for RBS workers

:17:14.:17:17.

whose names are not called Stephen. We shall see. Gillian, thank you

:17:17.:17:21.

for being with us. Now, I am told Mr Goodwin sleeps

:17:21.:17:25.

like a baby these days, he wakes up every two hours and cries. Before

:17:25.:17:31.

you join him, stick stick around longer because coming up comedy

:17:32.:17:35.

grand Dame Ruby Wax on why politicians don't come clean about

:17:35.:17:38.

depression F that doesn't lift your spirits, nothing will, especially

:17:38.:17:46.

not the joie de vivre black hole otherwise known as our interweb

:17:46.:17:50.

page, or our Twitter and hur 100 billion dollar Facebook. It's

:17:50.:17:53.

chilly here in Westminster. I know the BBC are cutting back but they

:17:53.:17:59.

seem to have forgotten us souled tucked newspaper basement studio

:17:59.:18:07.

55B. Not a warm Blue Nun Horlics in sight. We need call me Dave's

:18:07.:18:10.

little flushed red cheeks to warm us up. They were flaming in the

:18:10.:18:15.

Commons this week as he battled to stop the return of his alter ego

:18:15.:18:21.

Flashman, little Eddie's mocking appeared at times to be just a tad

:18:21.:18:30.

too much for Flashman to bear. Talking of alter egos's here's

:18:30.:18:40.
:18:40.:18:57.

Anita with hearse to give us a So this week it was all about not

:18:57.:19:00.

getting kicked in your end zone as all the party leaders got padded up,

:19:00.:19:05.

put their heads down and aimed for that all-important slam dunk at the

:19:05.:19:09.

bankers, no, wait a minute that's the wrong sport, isn't it?

:19:09.:19:13.

might need this, Anita. Thank you, Ben. This is so going to ruin my

:19:13.:19:23.
:19:23.:19:25.

hair! Now bizarrely the RBS quarterback

:19:25.:19:28.

Hester didn't hear the baying of the crowds when it came to matter

:19:28.:19:31.

of his bonus even though his own coach, the chairman himself, went

:19:31.:19:36.

without his �1.4 million. Previously out of form Captain Ed

:19:36.:19:40.

Miliband finally hit his stride, coming up with a rather ingenious

:19:40.:19:45.

blocking defence, a vote in the House of Commons. Stephen Hester

:19:45.:19:52.

was totally zone blitzed. We have got to have responsibility

:19:52.:19:56.

in the boardroom when everybody else is living standards are being

:19:56.:20:01.

squeezed. That's why I say tax the bankers' bonuses and give ordinary

:20:01.:20:11.
:20:11.:20:14.

employees a say on top pay in every Well, team Cameron were now now

:20:14.:20:18.

under pressure. How do they show they too were tough on the bankers?

:20:18.:20:22.

How is this for a play? What do you is you fine the biggest hunk of

:20:22.:20:26.

meat on the tkpwreupbd iron and take him and chuck him on the fire.

:20:26.:20:32.

Step forward the player formerly known as Sir Fred The Shred, now

:20:32.:20:35.

days just Shred to you and me. The forfeiture committee stripped him

:20:35.:20:39.

of his title and the Government were pleased. We have a special

:20:39.:20:42.

case here of the Royal Bank of Scotland symbolising everything

:20:42.:20:46.

that went wrong in the British economy over the last decade. Fred

:20:46.:20:49.

Goodwin was in charge, I think it's appropriate that he loses his

:20:49.:20:55.

knighthood. Ed was now totally in the game and messing for a fight.

:20:55.:21:01.

We have now heard it all, because he says that the class war against

:21:01.:21:04.

the bankers is going to be led by him and his cabinet of millionaires.

:21:04.:21:14.

I don't think it's going to wash, Time out!

:21:14.:21:18.

David Cameron had some time out in Brussels and while he was there he

:21:18.:21:21.

found that he had to explain to some of his team that he was

:21:21.:21:24.

actually on the right side, just before Christmas he took the

:21:24.:21:29.

applause of the crowds for vetoing an EU treaty. But now he found

:21:29.:21:33.

himself on the defensive having to explain his latest manoeuvres.

:21:33.:21:38.

is a treaty outside the EU. We are not signing it, we are not

:21:38.:21:43.

ratifying it. We are not part of it. It places no obligations on the

:21:43.:21:50.

United Kingdom. Cameron had his players support, it really was

:21:50.:21:54.

touch down for Miliband. With this Prime Minister a veto is not for

:21:54.:21:59.

life, it's just for Christmas. Cameron persuaded his players to

:21:59.:22:03.

get behind him. But what about the yellow team? What were they doing?

:22:04.:22:10.

May I begin by praising the Prague mat teufpl -- pragmatism of the

:22:10.:22:14.

Prime Minister, although I confess to being somewhat surprised that my

:22:14.:22:18.

support for that isn't shared throughout the Government benches.

:22:18.:22:21.

Cracks in the coalition lineout may have been pushed together for now,

:22:21.:22:25.

but what happens if they open in the future? Just how vulnerable

:22:25.:22:31.

does that leave Downing Street? # Watch your step...

:22:31.:22:35.

Also putting in a notable performance this week was the wide

:22:35.:22:38.

receiver Gripper Gove, appearing before the education select

:22:38.:22:42.

committee. He was asked about his plans to do away with vocational

:22:42.:22:49.

subjects at school. But how exactly are we going to do without GCSE

:22:49.:22:54.

scrimmageology? Ultimately, if you say to a student we the state are

:22:54.:22:58.

going to value this qualification as an equivalent, but then the

:22:58.:23:01.

colleges to which they apply and the employers with whom they're

:23:01.:23:06.

seeking a job say no, then that child will understandably feel

:23:06.:23:14.

betrayed and let down. Maybe the questions to hash tag

:23:14.:23:20.

tweeters were proving tricky. What did Michael do? He did what players

:23:20.:23:24.

normally do when it gets a bit sweaty. He called time out. Can I

:23:24.:23:27.

ask a favour. You kindly provided me with water, will you excuse me

:23:28.:23:35.

for a second? I will come back and carry on answering questions. Can

:23:35.:23:40.

you suspend for a sitting? I will be back in a minute. So, post-match

:23:40.:23:44.

report thep. Young Miliband had a good week but he needs to have a

:23:44.:23:48.

longer run than that if he wants to prove that he was actual lay good

:23:48.:23:57.

draft pick. What about he clearly needs to Max protect. He He and no,

:23:57.:24:01.

Andrew, I have absolutely no idea what I just said.

:24:01.:24:09.

Warriors? One, two, three, warriors!

:24:09.:24:12.

Anita was never seen again after that, you know, there she was

:24:12.:24:15.

training with the London Warriors. Let's return to our warriors here

:24:15.:24:22.

in the studio. Are you able to tell us what Mr

:24:22.:24:27.

Cameron actually vetoed and if a week later or two weeks later he

:24:27.:24:32.

still vetoing it? Well, he is absolutely not part of what the

:24:32.:24:37.

rest of - what the eurozone is now negotiating. That's not a veto.

:24:37.:24:41.

Well, it stopped it being a treaty of the European Union. But it's now

:24:41.:24:45.

going to be covered by all the institutions and the European Court

:24:45.:24:50.

of justice? And Britain is not a part of it. No, but we didn't need

:24:50.:24:55.

to veto it not to be a part of it. We haven't vetoed it, we have opted

:24:55.:24:58.

out, that's different from a veto. Well t may be different but it has

:24:58.:25:04.

the same effect of this not being a treaty. A treaty... He described it

:25:04.:25:08.

as a treaty, a treaty agreement. That's what Mr Cameron described it

:25:08.:25:12.

as in parliament. A treaty in the European Union has to by definition

:25:12.:25:18.

include all 27 members. He was in the common say -- Commons saying he

:25:18.:25:21.

supports this treaty. He said he supported the treaty. A couple of

:25:21.:25:25.

months ago he was using a veto to stop a treaty so I was confused as

:25:25.:25:28.

to what treaty he was talking about. And said the Commission, the

:25:28.:25:31.

buildings of the European Union and the European Court could not be

:25:31.:25:34.

used. He's gone back on that as well. He is allowing for the

:25:35.:25:38.

possibility they might be used and that is indeed a change of tone,

:25:38.:25:42.

but that... A big change. But that is something that does not include

:25:42.:25:48.

us, is funmently important. We were never going to be part of any move

:25:48.:25:52.

towards fiscal union. That just wasn't going to happen. So, I don't

:25:52.:25:57.

understand where the veto comes in. It wasn't a veto. We were never

:25:58.:26:03.

going to sign up to a fiscal union treaty. Well, if we weren't what

:26:03.:26:07.

are you surprised about? I don't understand - if we were never -

:26:07.:26:11.

that's exactly what didn't happen. What are you surprised about?

:26:11.:26:15.

don't understand where the word veto comes in. I am not sure it's

:26:15.:26:21.

even his word. The reason he suddenly soared ahead in the polls

:26:21.:26:26.

is because of this veto he magically wielded when he became Mr

:26:26.:26:30.

Strongman, and the nonsense said at the time and at the time sensible

:26:30.:26:33.

sane people said what is he actually vetoing and now he seems

:26:33.:26:36.

to have come to the House of Commons and himself said I didn't

:26:36.:26:41.

actually veto anything. Final word on this, I need to move on. We are

:26:41.:26:46.

floundering here. Britain has parted from the European Union, we

:26:46.:26:50.

are headed on different tracks. That's a different point. It's much

:26:50.:26:54.

more important. He is now suggesting that we are not. I just

:26:54.:26:57.

cannot understand... Let's agree to disagree there. Wye like to say to

:26:57.:27:05.

our viewers if any of you see a veto on the loose tonight... Don't

:27:05.:27:09.

approach it. Let me know and I will take it round to Downing Street, I

:27:09.:27:14.

think it's escaped. Isn't it dangerous for Mr Cameron for the

:27:14.:27:17.

Lib Dems to be happier about this than the Tories. I thought it was

:27:17.:27:22.

amazing that watching that. I make the same point again, that a really

:27:22.:27:26.

important moment in history has been arrived at in which Britain no

:27:26.:27:32.

longer automatically sighs -- says yes late in the day to what happens.

:27:32.:27:36.

Britain has said yes. The thing the Europeans are doing is completely

:27:36.:27:40.

absurd. We are Europeans. You are a European, I am a European, Andrew

:27:40.:27:44.

is a European. I am a Spaniard. know you are. You are a European.

:27:44.:27:48.

don't have to be lectured about that. You are talking about the

:27:48.:27:52.

Europeans as though we are not part. Let him finish the point. There is

:27:52.:27:58.

such a different between Britain and continental Europe. If we are

:27:58.:28:01.

not so your Government would have taken us into the euro, in

:28:01.:28:05.

recognition of the fact we are different we are not in the euro.

:28:05.:28:11.

There is more trouble, for example, this IMF maybe making a request for

:28:11.:28:15.

more money, which is clearly destined for Europe, that's going

:28:15.:28:19.

to cause, well Mr Balls is saying he might not want to support that

:28:19.:28:28.

and a lot of Tory backbenchers. knows when Britain may not need the

:28:28.:28:38.
:28:38.:28:38.

IMF money. What do you think,... can't necessarily avoid it, you

:28:38.:28:42.

know. We are at the mercy of the markets. Except the Americans have

:28:42.:28:46.

made it clear they will not pony up a penny. It's an election year.

:28:46.:28:49.

There is no way Mr Obama can be seen to be bailing out rich

:28:49.:28:54.

Europeans. Now the Americans account for 17% of any whip around

:28:54.:28:59.

F they don't come up, nobody's going to come up. But understand

:28:59.:29:04.

this also, that sterl something a little -- sterl something a little

:29:04.:29:08.

isolated country. Thank God for the moment we can borrow more cheaply,

:29:08.:29:13.

that may not always be the case. It was extraordinary the body

:29:13.:29:15.

language there, the difference between Osbourne to Cameron on one

:29:15.:29:18.

side and Clegg on the other scratching his leg and his head and

:29:18.:29:22.

the rest of it. Nick Clegg doesn't know what to do now. Tkwoe Prime

:29:22.:29:24.

Minister's question every week on the Daily Politics and he doesn't

:29:24.:29:32.

know whether to smile or cheer or Chris Huhne, speaking of Liberal

:29:32.:29:36.

Democrats. We are going to know tomorrow morning at ten o'clock, he

:29:36.:29:39.

is going to be told at nine, if he is going to be charged over this

:29:39.:29:45.

speeding thing. We don't know if he is. But if he is, I emphasise the

:29:45.:29:49.

word if, for all his lawyers watching tonight. If he is charged,

:29:49.:29:53.

does he have to resign from the Cabinet? I assume that he won't be

:29:53.:29:57.

charged. If he were, he would have to resign. I'm not sure he would

:29:58.:30:02.

have to resign. All that would change is that he is charged. I

:30:02.:30:07.

think it is odd that the CPS is calling this press conference to

:30:07.:30:11.

explain what is relatively a minor offence, even though I accept it is

:30:11.:30:15.

from a Cabinet Minister. It is a serious offence but my point is

:30:15.:30:25.
:30:25.:30:27.

that it is not as if he is up for Fred "The Shred" offences. You went

:30:27.:30:34.

from mild to moderate. Let Lord Campbell finish. I will never be

:30:34.:30:38.

Lord Campbell. He will continue to deny the charge. Politically the

:30:38.:30:42.

situation may change but I have a funny feeling if he is charged that

:30:42.:30:48.

Cameron will try and tough it out. If he is charged and then cleared,

:30:48.:30:54.

two ifs there, does he come back into the Cabinet? Why don't we wait

:30:54.:31:00.

until ten in the morning. Because if he is charged we won't be able

:31:00.:31:06.

to talk about a lot of this. If the CPS is holding a press conference I

:31:06.:31:09.

think it is because they want to explain why they are not charging

:31:09.:31:14.

him. If he is charged and he resigns or is made to resign,

:31:14.:31:19.

should there be a big or a small reshuffle? I would bring in a small

:31:20.:31:25.

Lib Dem to fail the small gap. agree with that. That's the great

:31:25.:31:31.

thing other coalition. Nearly all Lib Dem MPs will be Ministers by

:31:32.:31:37.

the end of five years. I was told they would be brought in to limit

:31:38.:31:43.

the change. A good week for Ed Miliband, the second in a row. So

:31:43.:31:47.

why did David Miliband write this article in the New Statesman?

:31:47.:31:50.

can't understand the fuss about this. This is the problem with the

:31:50.:31:55.

way politics is debated in Britain. I think David has written a really

:31:55.:32:02.

intect, sensible piece. I also think -- a really intelligent,

:32:02.:32:07.

sensible piece. I don't buy this David is try to undermine Ed at off.

:32:07.:32:10.

The thing is the Labour Party does need a big debate about itself and

:32:10.:32:14.

the country and why we rost the last election. I think David's got

:32:14.:32:19.

some very good pointers about where we go from here. I more or less

:32:19.:32:26.

agree but it is naive to think that the fratricide won't hang over the

:32:26.:32:30.

Labour Party. The public will move on pretty quickly. Now, readers of

:32:30.:32:37.

the nation's most esteemed scientific journal, the Daily Mail,

:32:37.:32:42.

enjoyed another of its peer reviewed articles on Monday, with

:32:42.:32:50.

those can still afford it booking their holidays abroad, the Mail

:32:50.:32:59.

christened it Happy Monday and managed to drag up an "academic".

:33:00.:33:04.

We like junk suicide oi scientists but it got us thinking what

:33:04.:33:08.

politicians could do to help deal with the blues. We asked our own

:33:08.:33:12.

ray of sunshine, that is Alastair Campbell, to put depression in this

:33:12.:33:19.

week's spotlight. One in four of us will have a

:33:19.:33:23.

direct experience of mental illness at some time in our lives. A survey

:33:23.:33:29.

has suggested that MPs it could be even higher and yet very few public

:33:29.:33:33.

figures talk openly about any mental health problem. I'm not

:33:34.:33:37.

being judgmental about that. I totally understand why a nurse or a

:33:37.:33:42.

teacher filling in a job application form says, do you know

:33:42.:33:46.

what, I won't put down my depression, that I had a breakdown

:33:46.:33:52.

or am on medication. But that reinforces the stigma and taboo. It

:33:52.:33:57.

is part of the job of people in public life to break down that tab.

:33:57.:34:05.

I understand why an MP might worry, that they might become a stigma if

:34:05.:34:10.

they were open about their health. From my perspective, on this I find

:34:10.:34:14.

the public and the media more understanding than a lot of MPs

:34:14.:34:18.

might think. I don't support much that David Cameron does but I do

:34:18.:34:21.

support the idea of putting happiness and wellbeing at the

:34:21.:34:25.

centre of policy making. But that means you have to deliver. It means

:34:25.:34:29.

you really do have the put happiness and wellbeing at the

:34:29.:34:35.

centre of an agenda. That means meant at health being at the top.

:34:35.:34:41.

There used the to be a taboo about cancer. Now it is mental health. I

:34:41.:34:46.

want society to be as open about our mental health as we are about

:34:46.:34:51.

our physical health. If a few MPs came out and talked openly about

:34:51.:34:54.

their mental health, it would help them and I think it would help

:34:54.:34:59.

their constituents. Alastair Campbell in his back

:34:59.:35:07.

garden. Who is in our back garden? It is Ruby Wax. Thank you. I didn't

:35:07.:35:14.

realise. Is there a clear definition of mental illness or

:35:14.:35:18.

depression? I think depression is misleading. It implys that you are

:35:18.:35:23.

in a sad mood. It has nothing to do with the tact that your dog ran

:35:23.:35:29.

away or your baby left town. This is the sensation like you are in a

:35:29.:35:34.

coma but you are awake. There's a depletion of personality. It is an

:35:34.:35:38.

unfortunate word India I think it is the word they use is a physical

:35:38.:35:44.

ailment. There is no question when did you have a mental illness

:35:44.:35:47.

notice your haircuts your blood. It's a disease of the brain. Just

:35:47.:35:52.

like you would have a tumour, there's a glitch in all those

:35:52.:35:54.

neurons so it is ridiculous the people say it's your imagination.

:35:54.:35:59.

What did you make of the point Alastair was making in his film

:35:59.:36:03.

there? What is in it for a politician to admit this? We have a

:36:03.:36:08.

pretty unforgiving media in this country. The Prime Minister of

:36:08.:36:12.

Norway left work for a little while and came back and the whole country

:36:12.:36:16.

applauded that. If you are talking about one in four, let's think how

:36:16.:36:20.

many politicians have this. I would rather know about it than them

:36:20.:36:26.

being loose at the in the job. there are that number, one in four,

:36:26.:36:31.

there are 600 and something, so you are talking about over 130 MPs.

:36:31.:36:35.

Given that number, clear he they don't think there is anything in it

:36:35.:36:39.

for them, because they don't come forward. I don't know if they

:36:39.:36:43.

realise there's medication, that we aren't in the dark ages any more.

:36:43.:36:46.

Suddenly we are identified with being possessed with the devil.

:36:46.:36:51.

There is medication. You can go to work. I've had it. I haven't had it

:36:51.:36:55.

in five years. You wouldn't do this with any other illness. The point

:36:55.:37:00.

about MPs, I know there are MPs in Parliament who get very bad

:37:00.:37:05.

depression and who've other mental illnesses. They do feel it might be

:37:05.:37:08.

used against them, but I think they are wrong. I think they would find

:37:08.:37:13.

both their constituents and the media, as I said in the film I

:37:13.:37:18.

never had any problem with the media. They get it. You mentioned

:37:18.:37:22.

the Norwegian Prime Minister, the leader of the Liberal Party in

:37:22.:37:28.

Canada, he came out and talked about his own depression. Stephen

:37:28.:37:32.

Harper, the Prime Minister made an amazing speech about depression

:37:32.:37:36.

after one of his MPs killed himself. It is part of their job to break

:37:36.:37:41.

down taboos and stigma. Do you think it is feasible in this

:37:41.:37:44.

country for the Prime Minister or the Chancellor of the Exchequer or

:37:44.:37:49.

the Foreign Secretary or the Defence Secretary to say they are

:37:49.:37:53.

suffering from depression? Not at that high level. Can I see a

:37:53.:37:57.

backbench MP doing that. I think there've been cases of that.

:37:57.:38:04.

Churchill. Yes. We didn't know about it at the time. I disagree,

:38:04.:38:10.

Michael. There is an interesting book coming out from John biff fin

:38:10.:38:14.

writing about his time in Government, where he went to see

:38:14.:38:19.

Mrs Thatcher and told her he had very bad depression and he wanted

:38:19.:38:24.

to resign from the Cabinet. And to her credit, Mrs Thatcher said she

:38:24.:38:29.

wouldn't have a word of it. It is not that big a deal. I disagree

:38:29.:38:32.

with Michael. I think if a top flight politician came out and said

:38:32.:38:36.

you know what, every now and again I have to take time off, it

:38:36.:38:41.

wouldn't a problem. We don't trust them anyway, so by saying yes I'm

:38:41.:38:45.

part of the human race would endear a lot of the population. You've got

:38:45.:38:49.

to break this Stig match. Forget about celebrities. People always

:38:49.:38:54.

say drue to be a come Tokyo have depression? I said do you know one

:38:54.:38:58.

in four people who are funny? We are talking about the little single

:38:58.:39:03.

mothers up in the middle of nowhere who are so ashamed. This isn't just

:39:03.:39:08.

about mental health Politics you have to pretend to be completely

:39:08.:39:11.

healthy. I remember when Tony Blair had to have a little heart

:39:11.:39:16.

procedure, he looked for a way of distracting attention and he came

:39:16.:39:20.

one the idea of announcing that he wouldn't run for a fourth term.

:39:20.:39:25.

That's how he distracted attention from his heart problem. People

:39:25.:39:30.

worry that the other side, spin doctors like your former self,

:39:30.:39:35.

would make political capital out of it. Gordon Brown was described as

:39:35.:39:40.

psychologically flawed by somebody. He may well have been. He was also

:39:40.:39:45.

asked on television when whether he took antidepressants, if you

:39:45.:39:49.

remember, by Andrew Marr. At the time there was a big deal about

:39:49.:39:54.

that. I remember at the time saying that Andrew was wrong to raise it

:39:54.:39:59.

the way he did but we need to get to a situation where people can be

:39:59.:40:03.

open. I think if somebody tried to use it against a politician white

:40:03.:40:10.

rebound. Definitely. We had one, bankers are not fashionable but the

:40:10.:40:14.

banker at Lloyds. He stepped down for a while because he was

:40:14.:40:19.

suffering from stress and is now back. That probably might not have

:40:19.:40:22.

happened 20 or 30 years ago.Ening think people are coming forward.

:40:23.:40:27.

They have to realise that there is no distinction between mental and

:40:27.:40:30.

physical illness. It is something physical in your brain. You

:40:30.:40:37.

wouldn't say to somebody with Alzheimer's, you they Ronald Reagan

:40:37.:40:42.

was forgiven for having Alzheimer's. We have to move on. The sympathy

:40:42.:40:48.

certainly came forth. I have a quiz. Nothing like political intrigue to

:40:48.:40:51.

get the juices going in Westminster, so we loved this week's revelation

:40:51.:40:57.

that in their continued attempt to appear mildly human, Ed Balls and

:40:57.:41:02.

Yvette Cooper have been keeping up their favourite lasagne dish for

:41:02.:41:06.

Labour's moves and shapers. It could be a plot to make estroet be

:41:06.:41:13.

the next Labour leader. We thought it was time to dig out our

:41:14.:41:21.

politicians and their favourite foods quiz. 3 It is pretty easy.

:41:21.:41:27.

Which politician's favourite food was peas? John Major. Well done,

:41:27.:41:34.

Ruby. According to Spitting Image it was. Which politician's

:41:34.:41:43.

favourite food was jelly beans? John Major? No. Whose favourite

:41:43.:41:52.

food was a Tony roasted songbird. President Mitterrand. And who told

:41:52.:41:57.

the magazine his preferred food was fish and chips and then said it was

:41:57.:42:04.

fresh fettucine garnished... Tony Blair. You probably wrote all of

:42:05.:42:10.

that rubbish. A first. You got every question right. That means,

:42:10.:42:15.

there he is, the little smiler there. Anyway, that's your lot for

:42:15.:42:23.

tonight, folks. But not for us. Oh, no. It is open mic night at

:42:23.:42:27.

Annabels and we've been give an slot on the bill somewhere between

:42:27.:42:35.

a reformed ugly rumours and Lembit Opik's infamous harmonica dance. We

:42:35.:42:41.

leave you with a taster thanks to So sky Arts first love programme

:42:41.:42:46.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS