20/06/2013 This Week


20/06/2013

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# You woke up this morning, got Tonight on This Week, as one great

:00:32.:00:35.

TV mobster, Tony Soprano, sadly leaves the stage, we turn our

:00:35.:00:37.

attention to the political underworld in Westminster. Organised

:00:37.:00:40.

crime in the City of London. A new report says naughty bankers should

:00:40.:00:43.

do a stretch in the slammer. Wise guy financial journalist Max Keiser

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breaks the code of omerta. What do Tony Soprano and the Godfather have

:00:53.:00:58.

in common with the CEOs of top banks? They should all be in jail

:00:58.:01:00.

because they are crooks. The world's big bosses had a sit

:01:00.:01:04.

down at the G8, but former KGB heavy Don Putin didn't always have a smile

:01:04.:01:07.

on his face. ITV's favourite moll, Laura Kuenssberg, has been pinched

:01:07.:01:17.
:01:17.:01:18.

by This Week. So, the world's leaders might have rolled up their

:01:18.:01:23.

sleeves as they rolled up to the G8, but did address down summit really

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achieve very much at all? And after a police caution for

:01:26.:01:28.

Charles Saatchi, have pictures of Nigella Lawson being manhandled

:01:29.:01:32.

shone a light on the darkness of domestic abuse? Broadcaster Trisha

:01:32.:01:35.

Goddard and Sky Sports presenter Charlie Webster speak up for the

:01:35.:01:45.
:01:45.:01:47.

victims. Those pictures of Nigella have certainly opened up the debate

:01:47.:01:51.

about domestic violence. Domestic abuse can happen to anybody, no

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matter what background, and the pictures showed they can happen to

:01:55.:02:05.
:02:05.:02:06.

women who are outwardly confident and independent. This week we are in

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the waste management is less. Evenin' all. Welcome to This Week,

:02:15.:02:18.

the only genuine excuse for not paying the licence fee, and the best

:02:18.:02:22.

reason for going to bed early on a Thursday. Now, like us, you probably

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think most politicians are as dull as ditchwater, as grey as Michael's

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underwear drawer. But tonight we bring news of a brighter, more

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colourful world, following the sensational interview given by a

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Labour councillor called Simon Parkes who revealed that politics

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isn't just for those who've seen the inside of Eton College. Oh, no. It's

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also for those who've seen the inside of an alien spaceship! Oh

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yes! According to Simon, his "real mother" is a nine feet tall green

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alien with eight stick-like fingers. Yes, Simon, I can see the

:02:57.:03:01.

resemblance. He currently enjoys close sexual encounters of the third

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kind, at least four times a year!! So, no stamina, then, these aliens.

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And he has even fathered an extra-terrestrial love-child as a

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result, called Zarka. Well, why should Boris have all the fun when

:03:18.:03:22.

it comes to love children? Now, I know what you're thinking - it

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doesn't get any more peculiar than a politician invited aboard a

:03:25.:03:27.

spaceship and fathering an extra-terrestrial love child called

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Zarka. But you'd be wrong. Because Maria Miller sits in the Cabinet, as

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Culture Secretary. I know, I know. Not just peculiar. Bizarre. Speaking

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of space cadettes who've served in government, I'm joined on the sofa

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tonight by two flamboyant individuals who I have to share a

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small cell with. Think of them as the Dolce and Gabbana of late-night

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political chat, even if they are more Man At C&A and Burtons. I

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speak, of course, of #manontheleft Alan "AJ" Johnson, and

:03:57.:04:07.
:04:07.:04:12.

#sadmanonatrain Michael "Choo Choo" Portillo. Your moment of the week?

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The Care Quality Commission, the most useless public sector

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organisation ever invented, not only failed to look after patients, but

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also, of course, was apparently involved in covering up its own

:04:25.:04:29.

failure, because anything that failed among the things it was meant

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to be supervising was a failure of itself. It has then got into the

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business of not naming the people involved in the cover-up. But I

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wanted to use this as an illustration. I think something has

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happened in politics in the last few weeks which is basically that the

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Labour view of the world has fallen apart, because the National Health

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Service is no longer seen as a sacred cow full of Florence

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Nightingales, the welfare state is now very much on the defensive,

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criticised by the public, the way that people see schooling is

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changing as well, and Labour has come off its previous position on

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the austerity programme. I think we mark a significant moment in the

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political process, that many of the things where Labour thought it was

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on strong ground, it is now in absolute retreat. He hopes. Try not

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to respond and just give me your moment of the week. Can I talk about

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trains? In nine hours, I will be catching the East Coast mainline

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train up to Hull. There was a debate in Parliament today. The East Coast

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is the only publicly owned rail network. Its quality of service is

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really good. I have been using it for 16 years and it has never been

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better. It has handed back �640 million to the taxpayer. The debate

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today from MPs from London to Aberdeen who use the East Coast was

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dogmatic about this. It is delivering the goods, quality of

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service is good, reliability is good. There is no earthly reason why

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it should be franchised out. If it ain't, don't fix it. Privatise.

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What a week to be a banker. Yes, I said banker, b-b-b banker. This

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week, a long-awaited door stopper of a report on banking standards, which

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must be the biggest oxymoron of our times, has proposed porridge for

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bankers that engage in reckless misconduct. But if they can create a

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financial crash by investing in assets they don't understand, money

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launder for the Mexican drug cartel, help the Mullahs break Iranian

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sanctions, fiddle the world's most important interest rate and rip off

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their customers with dodgy mis-selling of products they don't

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need, all without anybody going to jail, then what's a bit of reckless

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misconduct when you're counting your bonus? In search of an answer, we

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turned to American broadcaster and recovering banker, Max Keiser. This

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is his Take Of The Week. Welcome to London, the financial

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capital of the world, home of legendary financial minds like

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Andrew Neil and the honourable British banker. Neither of those

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:07:34.:07:35.

statements is true. I worked on Wall Street in the 1980s when greed was

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good. The same thing here in the city of London, where greed was

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jolly good. Sure, we cut corners, but since the financial crisis,

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standards in the banking industry have collapsed. It is almost as if

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crime is good. This week, a report on banking standards, commissioned

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by the UK government, calls for a new criminal offence of reckless

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misconduct, including a recommendation for jail sentences.

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Oh, and a deferment of bonuses. That must really hurt!

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# A British bank is run with precision, a British home requires

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nothing less. Tradition and rules, without them, disorder, chaos, moral

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disintegration, a ghastly mess. # Reckless misconduct and going to

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jail. It sounds bad. Is it just typical British understatement?

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Included in reckless misconduct is HSBC's laundering of billions of

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pounds worth of Mexican drug cartel money. If you ask me how many

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bankers are going to go to jail, I would posit that it will be about

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the same number of Mexican drug cartel money launders that go to

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jail. Very few. How do they get away with it? Well, according to the

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report, they used the phrase, the murder on the Orient express

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defence, which is a very nice way to say that they are operating as a

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criminal syndicate, a crime family. Nobody in the organisation knows

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what the whole organisation is up to, therefore none of them are

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culpable and they all escape prosecution. These people deserve

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:09:46.:09:50.

the name many have given them. Gangsters. But will it work? Over

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the past few decades we have had big and bigger bubbles, big and bigger

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bursting, and calls for reform. This looks pretty much exactly like that.

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I have a better idea. It might be time to take the law into our own

:10:08.:10:18.
:10:18.:10:25.

hands. If you see a banker running When he got out of jail, he came

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from the blustery Millennium Bridge to our own studio full of bluster

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here in Westminster. Max Keiser, welcome to this week. A pleasure to

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be here. I am not sure what you think we should do about the

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bankers? If they want to act like gangsters, maybe they should get

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whacked. There should be some deterrent for what they are doing.

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They want to be this conquering bank staff type, and yet they do not

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suffer any penalties. Take a page out of Tony Soprano's book. What

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would he do in this situation? It would not be pretty, would it?

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not think governments can do that. You have to ask how complicit the

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government is in some of these activities. They got a lot of tax

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revenue when the banks were booming. But they cost the UK economy a

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tremendous amount of tax revenue that would have been realised had

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there been more honest enterprise allowed. And there would not have

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been the crash. Is it the system, or rogue individuals? It is systemic.

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It is the system and it starts at the Bank of England, that has been

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allowing for artificially low interest rates to fuel the

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speculation and the bad debt. The Bank of England was also named in

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the LIBOR scandal, along with Barclays. Are you saying we must now

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say Mervyn King should be going to jail? He says he is going to spill

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the beans now that he is out of his role. They all say that. Do you

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think this report will make a blind bit of difference? I don't think it

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will. The things that have already happened, it seems to me, raise the

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question as to what criminality has occurred. I have been amazed that

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over the last six years there has been no attempt, apparently, to see

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what criminal activity was involved. It seems extraordinary that the

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banks could suddenly fall off a cliff, and that it could be the case

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that everything that had been reported to shareholders and the

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public up to that point had been correct. How could that possibly be

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the case? It seems to me that we must have been misled, shareholders

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must have been misled. There are criminal offences involved in all of

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that. I have seen no assiduous effort are prosecuting authorities

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to investigate what happened and what charges could have been

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brought. I really do think, until we see large numbers of anchors in

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handcuffs, we are not go into make much of a change in this. There is

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vacancy talk of this offence of reckless, not clear what it means,

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and the suggestion that some bankers should wait ten years for their

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bonuses. At Question Time, Prime Minister's Questions, the two front

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benches agreed, it seemed like an exercise in banker bark, because it

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is pop larks rather than something that will change the system. Yes,

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and this is the third report. The Vickers Report was competed in 2010.

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He was on it with advance cable and there's a feeling that it is

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business as usual, we just have to go through hoops first. Tyree

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doesn't want a report that will sit on a shelf and gathers dust, so they

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tried through legislation. Another defence bankers use is that the

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system is too fragile and if you prosecute us now the system will

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:14:25.:14:26.

collapse. They say for example during the 20 a 08 crash -- 2008

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crash there was skulduggery going on and in the US system a deal was done

:14:31.:14:35.

backstage where they said if you don't give us the bail-out the

:14:35.:14:40.

market is going to crash. They used the power of the market almost as a

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bludgeoning stick. You could say they are almost extorting their

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rights, as they are getting tremendous benefits every time a

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chant closes they end up getting all the benefits and we end up picking

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up the tab. But politicians in this country seem to want to face both

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ways at once. On the one hand they dine out on bash bashing bankers and

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on the other hand they big up London as the most important financial

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sector in the world. Here's the risk. The balance sheet of the Bank

:15:17.:15:26.

of England has gone fro 8�8 trillion... The question is, should

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you prosecute bankers? I would say, how desperate are you for growth in

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the UK? They are imping growth by forcing the Government to issue more

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and more bonds which end up on the balance sheet of the Bank of

:15:41.:15:44.

England. That's interest cost. That's all brought about by these

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bank steres that refuse to step out of the way and allow competition.

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They want privileged access. As harsh as this sounds you would allow

:15:58.:16:02.

interest rates to start to creep up. That's about to happen in the United

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States. And around the world. Not because of policies that were put

:16:06.:16:09.

together by responsible governments but because there is a bond crash.

:16:09.:16:15.

I've talked to you on this show before. That's happening now, with

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interest rates elsewhere rising. Haven't we reached a sorry pass when

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only Boris is prepared to speak up for bankers among the political

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class? There is a dilemma here. I meet a lot of bankers socially and

:16:34.:16:40.

professionally. He mixes with the bad guys. There is no doubt they

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were highly innovative and clever people and they make a lot of money

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for their banks and potentially for Britain. Recently they have cost

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Britain an awful lot of money, an absolute fortune. I think the thing

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you have to get clear in your mind is that tough regulation, including

:16:59.:17:03.

criminal sanctions, does not drive the banking community away from

:17:03.:17:08.

London. It would provide London with a place where the entire world knew

:17:08.:17:12.

that they were going to be treated fairly, cleanly, professionally and

:17:12.:17:15.

transparently. This traditionally has been the great strength of

:17:15.:17:22.

Britain. It is in many areas. People flock from all over the world to do

:17:22.:17:27.

business under English law - and I say English law - because they know

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they will be treated fairly and equally. All the scandals come

:17:32.:17:40.

through London, as it has the most lax rectory... All the stuff Lehman

:17:40.:17:43.

was doing was out of London. We must not be afraid of being the most

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regulated. What he is saying is you are living in a age where London's

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long gone, London almost compared to New York is the casino of banking

:17:53.:18:01.

now. You can outsource your fraud to London. The bankers in New York know

:18:01.:18:07.

that. There is no limit to rehypothecation of securities.

:18:07.:18:16.

don't often use that phrase on This Week! So don't even explain it.

:18:16.:18:19.

Traditionally and in fields other than banking the fact that English

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law is fair and transparent has been an amazing invisible export. In

:18:24.:18:30.

other words it is attractive. still is in the banking world.

:18:30.:18:34.

Arrest some bankers. Here is my prediction. You all agree, it won't

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happen. That's my prediction. Max Keiser, thank you. I've brought

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these for you Andrew. These are special handcuffs. What were you

:18:44.:18:50.

doing in nigh bedroom? It is great to see Max. He put all his money

:18:50.:18:55.

into gold and the market crashed, so he needs be here to get his money

:18:55.:19:00.

back. Now, it's late - Daft Punk late, and

:19:00.:19:03.

like our robotic French friends, we stay up late to get lucky, which so

:19:03.:19:07.

far has been a totally unrewarding endeavour. But we live in hope, and

:19:07.:19:09.

tonight we have company, because waiting in the wings are broadcaster

:19:09.:19:12.

Trisha Goddard and Sky Sports presenter Charlie Webster, here to

:19:12.:19:18.

talk about domestic violence and what can be done about it. Remember,

:19:18.:19:23.

there is no need for any kind of abuse on the Twitter, floss book or

:19:23.:19:33.
:19:33.:19:34.

even the good old Interweb. Even if you are a needy old support other --

:19:34.:19:37.

an EDL supporter. Now, a group of the world's most powerful leaders -

:19:37.:19:40.

plus Canada - came together this week on a golf course in Northern

:19:40.:19:44.

Ireland. And against all odds, agreed a decisive and united course

:19:44.:19:47.

of action. Not about tax avoidance - too many shoulds, coulds, and maybes

:19:47.:19:50.

for that. And not about Syria - not with Mr Putin flexing his political

:19:50.:19:54.

pecs. No, the one important thing they all agreed on was that the best

:19:54.:19:58.

way to look like you know what you're doing is not to wear a tie.

:19:58.:20:01.

If only they'd watched This Week, they'd know it doesn't work! Anyway,

:20:01.:20:04.

Laura Kuenssberg didn't get the memo and headed off to the course by

:20:04.:20:14.
:20:14.:20:16.

herself. This is her round-up of the political week. Look, golf is from

:20:16.:20:20.

where I'm from, so if an Englishman can win the US Open I'm sure I can

:20:21.:20:30.
:20:31.:20:47.

have a decent crack at it. How hard sooner or later. I did meet Rory

:20:47.:20:54.

McIlroy last year and Rory offered to get my swing sorted. Which was a

:20:54.:21:00.

plight way of saying, Mr President, you need help. Well at least I'm not

:21:00.:21:07.

alone. And neither were Barack Obama and Dave, on a lovely golf course

:21:07.:21:12.

with their world leader chums. They spared us the plus 4s, but what was

:21:12.:21:16.

with that smart casual? Why weren't they wearing ties? Does it really

:21:16.:21:20.

make that much difference what you wear if you are a leader of the

:21:20.:21:30.
:21:30.:21:44.

properly attired he would have had more luck in talk to Vladimir Putin,

:21:44.:21:51.

who was in jeans. He didn't get far in asking potato to incall off his

:21:51.:22:00.

Syrian friends. We haven't... I'm concerned about elements of the

:22:00.:22:05.

Syrian opposition but don't let's accept that there is only one

:22:05.:22:09.

alternative to Assad and that is extremist terrorism. As far as Syria

:22:10.:22:14.

was concerned, G8 got a little lost. The deal in the end was more a bogey

:22:14.:22:19.

than a birdie, but the Prime Minister did manage to find

:22:19.:22:25.

something on his score card. A sort of deal to do something about those

:22:25.:22:32.

who are cheating tax. We can rewrite the international rules that allow

:22:32.:22:36.

companies to shift their profits away from the UK or any other

:22:36.:22:41.

country where they are doing business. These companies are using

:22:41.:22:44.

the existing tax laws, obviously you have to get international agreement

:22:44.:22:49.

and there is no better place to start than when you've got eight of

:22:49.:22:58.

the largest economies in the world sitting around the table. Of course

:22:58.:23:05.

the risk is, if we abide by those new rules and nobody else does poor

:23:05.:23:10.

old UK PLC could end up stuck in the bunk banker, and poor old dodgy

:23:10.:23:15.

bankers might not be able to take up golf. Instead they might end up

:23:15.:23:20.

stuck in the slammer. Following the parliamentary commission on banking

:23:20.:23:25.

can the Prime Minister confirm he supports its recommendation on

:23:25.:23:30.

bonuses and criminal penalties and he will use the banking bill to

:23:30.:23:37.

implement them? Making sure that bhoonks are in receipt of taxpayer

:23:37.:23:43.

taxpayers' money that you can claw back bad bonus I say yes too.

:23:43.:23:46.

Government is gung-ho about changing the law, even though that idea might

:23:46.:23:52.

never be used. RBS it seems might never actually be sold. The

:23:52.:23:57.

Chancellor still seems quite unsure what to do the banks that left us

:23:57.:24:04.

broke. I will only sell our stake in RBS when we feel the bank is fully

:24:05.:24:09.

able to support our economy and when we get good value for you, the

:24:09.:24:15.

taxpayer. In our judgment, when it comes to RBS, that moment is some

:24:16.:24:25.
:24:26.:24:29.

way off. It is a long road to the general election, for Ed Miliband or

:24:29.:24:34.

Steven twig it was Labour's education policy. It is just as easy

:24:34.:24:38.

to understand as driving the one of these. Where a school freedom

:24:38.:24:42.

promotes higher standards, we will extend those freedoms to all

:24:42.:24:47.

schools. So if a freedom that is currently afforded to an academy is

:24:47.:24:52.

serving to drive up standards, that freedom should be available to all

:24:52.:25:02.
:25:02.:25:10.

Look! It was here all along. Of course, the Education Secretary is

:25:10.:25:15.

so relaxed about it all he has apparently taken up golf. Not such a

:25:15.:25:19.

good week for his colleague at health, who is having to deal with

:25:19.:25:26.

the late he's hideous cover-up. events at Morecambe Bay,

:25:26.:25:28.

Mid-Staffordshire and other hospitals should never have been

:25:28.:25:32.

covered up but should not have happened in the first place. We need

:25:32.:25:38.

to transform the approach to patient safety in our NHS. Finishing all too

:25:38.:25:44.

easy for the Tories to blame Labour, after all even though those names

:25:44.:25:49.

are now out there it was them who set up the Care Quality Commission

:25:49.:25:53.

in the first place. See, Alan, Andrew and Michael, not so hard

:25:53.:26:03.

after all. Join me for one tonne 19? -- for one on the 19? That was Laura

:26:03.:26:07.

Kuenssberg breaking all the rules at high great golf club in London.

:26:07.:26:12.

Allarges you are a former Health Secretary. What did you make of

:26:12.:26:19.

these stories about the Care Quality Commission or the no-care,

:26:19.:26:27.

no-quality commission? Horrendous, and horrendous what happened at

:26:27.:26:30.

Morecambe Bay and then the cover-up and the suggestion they had to

:26:31.:26:36.

redact that information because it breached data protection, and the

:26:36.:26:41.

Information Commissioner said no. It is awful. You have to remember, the

:26:41.:26:44.

Care Quality Commission was putting together three different regulators.

:26:44.:26:49.

There was a regulator in adult social care, one in the NHS and one

:26:49.:26:52.

in mental health. There was no regulation. There was no inspection

:26:52.:26:58.

before 2000. No-one knew, there was no complaints system that went

:26:58.:27:02.

outside the hospital. There was no scrutiny and no tarns partner at

:27:02.:27:09.

the. That is not to -- and no transparency. Whatever happened

:27:09.:27:14.

before 2000... This is, this leads to a reassessment, given what

:27:14.:27:18.

happened in Mid-Staffordshire and now what we know happened in

:27:18.:27:23.

Morecambe and the cover-up by people who were meant to be the good guys,

:27:23.:27:32.

doesn't this under, this goes a long way to undermining the national

:27:32.:27:37.

attitude to the NHS. Well, no. This was Michael ace point at the

:27:38.:27:45.

beginning. I don't think it does. I think what it does... Maybe it

:27:45.:27:53.

does? The enemies of the NHS have always suggested there is a better

:27:53.:27:58.

way of dealing with the NHS. There is a better way of ensuring that

:27:58.:28:02.

hospitals are better regulated, that it is more transparent, but it is

:28:02.:28:07.

amazing how little there was in that area before this regulation was

:28:07.:28:14.

introduced. That's why we are saying it is the greatest health service in

:28:14.:28:19.

the world. It is perfectly obvious that if you appoint a public sector

:28:19.:28:24.

regulator, what they are going to do is they are, if anything goes

:28:24.:28:27.

wrong,er in going to have to protect themselves against the accusation

:28:27.:28:31.

that they didn't spot what was going wrong, so they are immediately in a

:28:31.:28:36.

defensive position. When the Mid-Staffordshire thing was revealed

:28:36.:28:44.

two or three years ago, ten hospitals in worse mortality rates

:28:44.:28:47.

and the Care Quality Commission said no need to look into those, we know

:28:47.:28:57.
:28:57.:28:59.

why that is. People immediately smelt they were in the business of

:28:59.:29:06.

When you have a public-sector regulator, that will happen. They

:29:06.:29:09.

lose all contact with the original mission for which they are

:29:09.:29:12.

established. We saw it with gas, electricity, the telephone companies

:29:12.:29:21.

and everything. They begin to think they are there for themselves.

:29:21.:29:28.

private sector... We see the same with financial regulators in the

:29:28.:29:31.

private sector. We have a problem with good regulation with both

:29:31.:29:38.

sectors. The solution is to give some power to the people who are the

:29:38.:29:43.

patients, customers, clients, which is what you do as soon as in the

:29:43.:29:46.

electricity, telephone and gas companies. You make them customers

:29:46.:29:50.

who are paying for a service and you get a service because the people

:29:50.:29:55.

supplying the service understand that people have power. In health,

:29:55.:30:00.

the patients have no power, no control, no rights and are treated

:30:00.:30:06.

appallingly. That was the case, Michael, but it is not the case now.

:30:06.:30:10.

You could not pursue a complaint outside the local hospital. There

:30:10.:30:15.

was nowhere to go. There is nowhere to go now. Have you not seen these

:30:15.:30:20.

people being bought off with enormous payments to keep quiet?

:30:20.:30:26.

are talking about the quality of the regulation. The only thing that

:30:26.:30:30.

stands between us and the abyss is the free press. These things are

:30:30.:30:36.

coming out by press investigation. Let's move on. It is an interesting

:30:36.:30:43.

argument. Let me come to the G8. Let me come to Syria, because it is the

:30:43.:30:48.

most important foreign policy issue at the time. It is clear to me that

:30:48.:30:53.

there is not going to be a major Western intervention in Syria. Right

:30:53.:30:58.

or wrong, it is not going to happen. And nor is there going to be a

:30:58.:31:01.

diplomatic solution, because if Assad knows there is not going to be

:31:01.:31:07.

won, and Russia knows there is not going to be one, why would you do a

:31:07.:31:14.

diplomatic solution? He is winning. I do not think there should be an

:31:14.:31:18.

intervention in Syria. This is becoming more and more a Civil War,

:31:19.:31:25.

a war between Shia and Sunni. I think Putin is right on this. He has

:31:25.:31:28.

been the one right from the start who has been saying, be realistic

:31:28.:31:34.

about what is happening. He can be realistic because he is supplying

:31:34.:31:40.

the guns on planes. There is no easy answer here, and Cameron has tried

:31:40.:31:47.

really hard. I think, in my view, he is wrong that if somehow if they

:31:47.:31:53.

lifted the arms embargo if they persuaded Putin to say that he would

:31:53.:31:57.

be much more strong in terms of being much more critical, that they

:31:57.:32:01.

would get a peace summit in July-August. That does not seem

:32:01.:32:09.

possible now. Can anybody here, two of you, give me a scintilla of

:32:09.:32:13.

evidence that Assad is prepared to negotiate a peace deal? Of course

:32:13.:32:20.

not. But I agree largely with Alan. I do not understand why the British

:32:20.:32:23.

government has got itself on this hook of wanting to supply arms to

:32:23.:32:27.

the rebels. It is simply too dangerous. We have two little

:32:27.:32:32.

understanding of the situation, and as has been implied, it is

:32:32.:32:35.

escalating into a much broader situation of Sunni versus Shia, and

:32:35.:32:41.

I do not think we have a dog in that fight. You may have a dog in that

:32:41.:32:46.

fight if it becomes a regional conflict. Which dog is it?That, I

:32:46.:32:52.

have no idea. I am not arguing for intervention but I am saying if you

:32:52.:32:56.

are not going to get a diplomatic solution, which seems impossible,

:32:56.:32:59.

the West is not going to intervene, for very good reasons, then you need

:32:59.:33:04.

to face up to the fact that, backed by Russia, with all the modern

:33:04.:33:08.

armaments that Russia has, Assad will win and there will be one hell

:33:08.:33:17.

of a reckoning when that happens. The trouble is, the next step is to

:33:17.:33:24.

intervene. And President Obama has no interest in this. Journalistic

:33:24.:33:28.

colleagues who were there in Northern Ireland said that the

:33:28.:33:30.

indifference of visiting Obama to almost anything we are talking about

:33:30.:33:37.

was palpable. I can believe that. Can you explain Labour's schools

:33:37.:33:44.

policy? Yes. Out there, there is a confusion of academies, frees

:33:44.:33:48.

Gauls, state schools, trust schools. What Stephen Twigg was saying was

:33:48.:33:52.

that it does not matter what they are called, they should all have the

:33:52.:33:56.

freedom that academy schools have, but there should be a collaboration

:33:56.:34:01.

between schools in an area. That is the problem. The Department of

:34:01.:34:07.

education runs all of these academies. It is centralisation.

:34:07.:34:13.

Well done, you did a better job than Stephen Twigg. Another domino has

:34:13.:34:16.

fallen. Over the last four weeks we have seen all of these Labour

:34:16.:34:21.

dominoes go down. I will tell you the domino that has fallen, Michael

:34:21.:34:26.

Gove has not gone for selective education. Selective education is

:34:26.:34:30.

possible under what he is doing. Now, Diane Abbott may have had her

:34:30.:34:33.

faults, and we don't have enough time to go into them all now, but

:34:33.:34:36.

you could never accuse her of treating trophy husband Michael

:34:36.:34:39.

Portillo with anything other than the respect he didn't deserve. But

:34:39.:34:41.

for many people, their relationships aren't anywhere near as pretty. And

:34:41.:34:45.

with a high-profile case of domestic abuse in the news this week, we

:34:45.:34:55.
:34:55.:35:01.

decided to put domestic violence in domestic violence. Nigella Lawson's

:35:01.:35:07.

cultivated image as the woman who has it all - attractive,

:35:07.:35:12.

successful, confident - has cracked this week, after photographs showed

:35:12.:35:18.

her husband with his hands around her throat. The assault resulted in

:35:18.:35:21.

a caution for Charles Saatchi and put the hidden bruisers of abuse

:35:21.:35:27.

back in the media spotlight, reinforcing our knowledge that anger

:35:27.:35:32.

and aggression are not the preserve of a particular social class. So why

:35:32.:35:39.

does it take such a shocking image to make us sit up and finally take

:35:39.:35:44.

notice. One in four women are affected cheering their life. Are

:35:44.:35:47.

the media and politicians doing enough to highlight the issue? Like

:35:47.:35:52.

Tina Turner before her, will public scrutiny of Nigella's pain perhaps

:35:52.:35:57.

give other woman the hope that they deserve? It has been a big story,

:35:57.:36:02.

partly because it involved two very well-known people, particularly

:36:02.:36:07.

Nigella Lawson, and the pictures that were taken. We have Trisha and

:36:07.:36:14.

Charlie here. Why is this of particular importance to you?

:36:14.:36:17.

woman's aid ambassador for the past three years and I do a lot of

:36:17.:36:21.

fundraising and raise awareness. It is very personal to me and I believe

:36:21.:36:26.

it is a prevalent issue, and some of the fundraising I have done is

:36:26.:36:31.

running marathons, stand-up comedy. This is set up with women who are

:36:31.:36:38.

being abused? Yes, but children as well. They are shutting refuges,

:36:38.:36:43.

helplines, access, and also campaigning to get things in.

:36:43.:36:48.

been involved in mental health for 27 years. Where you get any domestic

:36:49.:36:53.

abuse, against women, children, men, you usually get some mental health

:36:53.:36:58.

fallout. This story resonated because it involved two famous

:36:58.:37:04.

people, two famous names, one particularly famous person. We have

:37:04.:37:09.

the photographs, that happened in the open air. But also because it

:37:09.:37:14.

involved, just to summarise a little bit, it involved well-known,

:37:14.:37:21.

middle-class people who are posh. Don't you think? There is a

:37:21.:37:24.

stereotype. People often point to the guests on my show both in

:37:24.:37:28.

England and in the states, there is a stereotype that it is a

:37:28.:37:33.

working-class problem, the sort of thing that happens on a sink estate.

:37:33.:37:37.

Suddenly, it is posh people in a posh restaurant. I keep thinking

:37:37.:37:41.

that if we had been talking about Nicky and Chaz at the local

:37:41.:37:45.

McDonald's, somebody would have jumped up. We would have had the

:37:45.:37:48.

Angel of Anglesey would have intervened, and politicians would be

:37:48.:37:54.

talking about the issue. I get the feeling there is a lot of

:37:54.:37:59.

embarrassment about it, because what do we do? They are not them, they

:37:59.:38:06.

are us. There is a class element. Yes, but it is important not just

:38:06.:38:11.

the class element at the fact that people think Nigella is confident

:38:11.:38:14.

and independent. What do you expect a woman going through domestic abuse

:38:14.:38:21.

to look like? Her head on the floor? As Tricia has said, it happens to

:38:21.:38:24.

outwardly confident and independent women because it is not all about

:38:24.:38:29.

physical violence. It is emotional abuse, financial control as well.

:38:29.:38:35.

And image. But that is what made it such an important story, because it

:38:35.:38:40.

countered the public caricature that abuse only happens among poor

:38:40.:38:48.

people, among very strong men and very weak women. And this showed,

:38:48.:38:53.

actually, it can happen in any social strata, and it is happening.

:38:53.:38:57.

It is interesting to see the comments people are making online.

:38:57.:39:00.

If you look online at the newspapers, it has attracted a lot

:39:00.:39:04.

of comment all the way through from, this is a trifling matter, nothing

:39:05.:39:08.

to do with anybody else, we should stay out of it, it should be behind

:39:08.:39:14.

closed doors, although it was a public place, all the way to outrage

:39:14.:39:20.

and run, Nigella, run. There is a whole spectrum of reaction. That

:39:20.:39:24.

shows the lack of understanding of domestic abuse. To think it should

:39:24.:39:30.

happen in the home, that is such an old-fashioned thing. It is a society

:39:30.:39:34.

problem and has a massive impact on society, on children, on financial

:39:34.:39:39.

imprecations of society as well. And just because it is happening in the

:39:39.:39:46.

home, does that mean it is OK? People have said this will lead to

:39:46.:39:51.

more awareness and understanding of domestic abuse. There is also a

:39:51.:39:56.

possibility that, at the end of the day, this is as much a story about

:39:56.:40:01.

celebrity as it is about domestic abuse. There is an element of that.

:40:01.:40:08.

But I come back to the posh bird bit. I am waiting for all of the

:40:08.:40:11.

newspapers who usually cover the posh end of things to start actually

:40:11.:40:16.

running campaigns aimed at middle-class women. I think that

:40:16.:40:21.

would break a lot of the taboos, and a lot of the myths about domestic

:40:21.:40:29.

violence. But also aimed at men. Why is it a women issue? Surely, as a

:40:29.:40:34.

man, you want to be, I am not tarnished as that, as somebody who

:40:34.:40:39.

would hit, control a woman. I do not want to be tarnished with that. Men

:40:39.:40:45.

have sisters, mothers, grandmas, so it is not just a women's issue.

:40:45.:40:50.

Politicians were forced to get involved in this, and Nick Clegg and

:40:50.:40:56.

others, not very successfully. is domestic violence. 30 years ago

:40:56.:41:02.

that might have just passed, because 30 years ago the police did not take

:41:02.:41:05.

domestic violence seriously. Statistics show that since they did

:41:05.:41:12.

start to take it seriously, and domestic violence has come down,

:41:12.:41:16.

other forms of crime have gone down as well. There is an argument that

:41:16.:41:20.

says if people get away with domestic violence, they commit other

:41:20.:41:26.

crimes. I think you have said everything there is to say about

:41:26.:41:32.

it. If it was a truck driver or a labourer, people would have passed

:41:32.:41:38.

it by. Now they realise that domestic violence affects everybody.

:41:38.:41:43.

But have we intruded into a problem that is between this couple, and if

:41:43.:41:48.

it involves abuse it should involve the police. You would like to think

:41:48.:41:53.

if you saw a woman with a man with his hand around her neck, you would

:41:53.:42:02.

not take a pic of it, you would go and try and help the woman. Let me

:42:02.:42:08.

bring in Michael. I was wondering what the impact of celebrity was. On

:42:08.:42:13.

the one hand, we say it is good that there is a focus on issues that had

:42:13.:42:17.

been hidden. Many of us are puzzled as to why women cannot get out of

:42:17.:42:21.

abusive situations. This can go on for years and years and they never

:42:21.:42:26.

feel able to walk away. If it really is the case that Nigella is in an

:42:26.:42:30.

abusive situation and has not been able to walk away, this makes it

:42:30.:42:38.

even more extraordinary. I wonder whether people would think, if even

:42:38.:42:43.

Nigella cannot walk away, how could I be expected to do that? Are we in

:42:43.:42:47.

danger of reading too much into one incident with famous people of which

:42:47.:42:54.

someone took a photograph? You spoke about interference. You should not

:42:54.:42:57.

intervene because you are at risk from the perpetrator and the victim.

:42:57.:43:03.

The victim is in this situation, but you do not know what control is

:43:03.:43:07.

going on in that environment, the home environment. It is not just

:43:07.:43:13.

physical. This is really important. We do not know anything other than

:43:13.:43:17.

the picture. You should call the police, because you do not know the

:43:17.:43:22.

consequences that home. It might get worse if you intervene. Many people

:43:22.:43:26.

have said, why is there this debate when we do not know what is going

:43:26.:43:30.

on? Is it to my husband, how would you be if in public you said

:43:30.:43:34.

something I did not like, and the only way I could shut you up would

:43:34.:43:39.

be to put your hand over -- my hand over your mouth, or you put your

:43:39.:43:45.

hands over my throat? In public, if you can do that under those

:43:45.:43:49.

circumstances, in public, what can you do behind closed doors?

:43:49.:43:52.

That's your lot for tonight, folks. But not for us. Because, like good

:43:52.:43:55.

girl guides, we're being true to ourselves tonight and heading to

:43:55.:44:00.

Annabel's with Trisha and Charlie. We've had to remind Michael that

:44:00.:44:03.

Charlie's a talented amateur boxer, with a mean right-hook, so no funny

:44:03.:44:12.

business during the cha-cha-cha, Choo Choo. But we leave you tonight

:44:13.:44:15.

with news that President Obama dealt Chancellor Gideon a visibly crushing

:44:15.:44:18.

blow this week at the G8 when he apparently confused Boy George

:44:18.:44:21.

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