04/07/2013 This Week


04/07/2013

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Fireworks and gunfire in Cairo, as the military oust the elected

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president. Egyptian-born comedy producer Ash Atallah looks to the

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streets, not the skies. This revolution may have been explosive,

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but the fuse that list it was people's everyday concerns.

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High explosives and short fuses in Westminster, as David Cameron fires

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a rocket at Ed Miliband. Five Live presenter Victoria Derbyshire is

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watching the display. It was quite a spectacular router witness, but did

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all the punters go home happy? And sparkling performances at

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Glastonbury, but will a rock star central banker be the answer to the

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UK's economic problems? Top business firecracker Stuart Rose lights the

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touch paper and stands well back. The leader is important but it is

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what is behind the leader that is really important, and that is the

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people in any business. Evenin' all. Welcome to This Week, a

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lonely beacon of illiberal bias and prejudice shining through the

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wishy-washy BBC metrosexual fog. Yet you join us tonight in existential

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peril, in which even such basic liberties as the right to drink Blue

:01:36.:01:40.

Nun on the job are in peril. Because we are under attack from an

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all-powerful enemy within. Remember them? Whose tentacles, according to

:01:44.:01:49.

Call-Me-Dave at PMQs yesterday, are spreading everywhere. I'm talking of

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course about the dastardly Unite trade union, and its mission to

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control the world. It's already taken control of the commanding

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heights of a little known but vital institution of the British

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establishment known as the Falkirk Constituency Labour Party. There are

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also reports that it's infiltrated the commanding lows of Newsnight,

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though since nobody's seen it recently it's hard to tell. And, of

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course, we already know it had the power to force an unimpressive Ed

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Miliband on an unimpressed Parliamentary Labour Party. So it

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was only a matter of time before they came for This Week. As of 7pm

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last night, around the time the military coup was kicking off in

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Cairo, and no doubt Unite was behind that too, Commandante Len McClusky

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became personally responsible for booking all of tonight's guests,

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thinking up all of tonight's questions, writing all of tonight's

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scripts, and choosing all of tonight's wardrobe. Though when he

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saw the shirt-watch twins, even he had second thoughts about the

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takeover. Anyway, welcome to Unite This Week. And speaking of muppets

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on strings, I'm joined on the sofa tonight by two men stuck in terminal

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decline. Think of them as the Edward Snowden and President Morsi of late

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night political chat. I speak, of course, of #manontheleft Alan "AJ"

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:03:10.:03:14.

Johnson, and #sadmanonatrain Michael "Choo Choo" Portillo. Your moment of

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the week? Talking of airport terminal decline, President Evo

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Morales this week set out from Moscow to go back to his homeland of

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Bolivia and found himself put down in Bolivia because France, Spain and

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Italy would not allow him to fly through their airspace because they

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thought he might have Mr Edward Snowden on board. This seemed to me

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a perfectly reasonable suspicion, since Bolivia and Ecuador and

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Venezuelan are three posturing countries that keep playing to the

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anti-American gallery around the world, and they like to tease the

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world that they might give refuge to Mr Edward Snowden. It has been met,

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the downing of his plane in Vienna, with the most amazing outcry from

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South America. The president of Venezuelan has said it is -- the

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president of Argentina, not a great friend of ours, she kicked up a

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great fuss. I must say, I found the fact that he had to land in Vienna

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pretty amusing. It has tickled your fancy, hasn't it? Mine is the news

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about the reopening of the case into the disappearance of Madeleine

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McCann. The Portuguese had all but closed the file. The family paid to

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get the Portuguese file and page to get it translated. Then they had to

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convince the UK police to investigate. That has very rarely

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happened. And not just our own police force, which would have been

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Leicestershire, which is the petition, wherever they live, but

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the Metropolitan police force. for out of the Home Office budget.

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This was a British girl missing and it seemed everyone had given up.

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They spent two years having a review, and now they are going to

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reopen the investigation and it looks a very positive step forward.

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Remarkable. She might still be alive. We shall see.

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Now, it's just over two years since the Arab Spring reached Egypt,

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leading to the fall of a dictator, the liberation of the Muslim

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Brotherhood, and the election of the first democratic leader in the

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nation's 5,000 year history, who happened to come from said Muslim

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Brotherhood. But only a year after Mohamed Morsi won his presidential

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majority, he now finds himself, and many of his supporters, under house

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arrest, the military dictating political events and the country on

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a knife-edge. So where now for the Arab world's biggest power, and what

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will it take to keep the peace? We turned to Egyptian-born television

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producer Ash Atalla. This is his the streets of Egypt this week. The

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country's first elected president thrown out by the Army after

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millions of Egyptians took to the streets in protest. Impressive

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scenes, yes, but perhaps not such a big surprise. I was born in Cairo,

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and I still have family there who I visit. When I was last in town, you

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could sense things were bubbling over. Tensions were rising and talk

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of a second revolution was in the air. The price of food is going up,

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transport is gridlocked and rubbish goes uncollected. Driving around

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Cairo, buildings are crumbling and there is a feeling of lawlessness in

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the air. It is a breakdown of society. If my relatively

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middle-class family are finding it hard, who knows how the rest are

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managing. The former President Morsi was thrown out after only one year

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in power, so it is not fair to blame him for everything, but his

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priorities were wrong. He spent too much time trying to force through

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Islamic law and not enough time worrying about the economy and

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tourism. And whilst people are calling what happened this week and

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military coup, I don't think that tells the whole story. In this

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case, the military were not acting in isolation. Instead, they were

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responding to the millions of people on the streets. Yes, President Morsi

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was democratically elected, but having been so, he betrayed the

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needs of the people and followed too narrow an agenda. You cannot turn

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around the country like Egypt in a year, maybe not even five. But until

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that Acis gets sorted out, I believe Egypt will remain a restless place.

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-- until the basic gets sorted. The next leader needs to sort out the

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streets, create jobs, and until they do so, the people of Egypt should

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not be satisfied. From the shisha garden in west

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London to our own little garden, always full of hot air, in the heart

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of Westminster, Ash Atalla, welcome to the programme. Thank you for

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having me. Isn't the danger that you have created a dreadful precedent

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for a fledgling democracy, which is that if you do not like the

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government commies and the military? Egypt has essentially taken the

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opportunity to reboot the revolution. It is hard to get it

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right first time. I think they were slightly tricked into the agenda

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that the Muslim Brotherhood offered them. I think he came to power on a

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ticket of inclusion, and there are many factions in Egypt. Having

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seized power, he was like a child having too many sweets. It honestly

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went to his head. I do not think he gave much of a careful what the

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nation needed. You say it is a reboot, and that is what the people

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in the streets would like to see as well, but can we be sure of that?

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The Army is the most powerful institution in Egypt. The Army ran

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in Egypt under Mubarak, and under Nasser as well. Why can we be sure

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they will give it up and put it back on the democratic road? I do not

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think Egypt could afford another three years of this not working.

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That is what people here forget. There is a ticking clock because the

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country is in sharp and fast decay. People say, is democracy not about

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waiting until the incumbent has had their time and then putting them

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out? I honestly do not think everyday people have that luxury,

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because they are struggling to eat, businesses are going down the pan,

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you cannot move around the country, it is in turmoil. You cannot get

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diesel, and for years is a long time to watch your life fall apart.

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have also sent a signal to the Muslim Brotherhood and it's like

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throughout the Arab world, that next time you get elected into power,

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shut down the rest quickly, or they will remove you. I do not even think

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the revolution is necessarily along religious lines. 90% of Egypt is

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Muslim. This was not about Muslim against Christian. That was not my

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point. What I was saying was that if you are like the Muslim Brotherhood,

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or even more extreme, the signal you have sent is that if you get into

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power, do not allow the Army, the opposition to get on. Close them

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down the moment you get into power. I disagree. The signal they have

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sent is, if you come into power and you are too hard line for what the

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people want, they will not tolerate it. You cannot get away with that.

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It is a difficult problem for the West, as we look in on this, because

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we are meant to be against military coup is in democracies, and yet it

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is quite clear that this is a popular move. The West needs to

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understand its own interests. It seems to me that we have had a

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rather Boy Scout attitude to foreign policy, which is that we have

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supported the creation of democracy in all these places without

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understanding what it may lead to. Now we find ourselves not able to

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condemn the coup because we are really against Islamism, and we are

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afraid that the Muslim Brotherhood was imposing Islamism in Egypt. I

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think if we properly understand our national interest, they are that we

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are against Islamism. It is against our interests that Islamism should

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succeed in Egypt, in Syria, or in Turkey for that matter. The

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extraordinary thing is that the two regimes that were successful at

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suppressing the Muslim Brotherhood were Mubarak in Egypt and Assad in

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Syria, and we played a part in the first and are trying to bring down

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the second. Our foreign policy position is confused. Unlike William

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Hague and the foreign office line, and the Prime Minister, you'd think

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we should support the coup. You think we should say we are happy

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this has happened. That is more or less what the West is saying.

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President Obama says he wants to see the return of a democratic

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government. Not the democratic government. When push has come to

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shove, let's take Obama as a perfect case, he is refusing to call this a

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coup. He is refusing to cut off the aid. He is refusing to say he wants

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the elected government back in office. He understands that what he

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really wants is to oppose Islamism, even if that involves a coup.

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think the world, the West certainly, once a more moderate

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government in place. That is what the Egyptian people thought they

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were getting, and that is why, for that reason alone can that is why he

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has been ousted. Egypt has been around for about 5000 years of

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recorded history. And it has never had a democracy, in that 5000 years,

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never. Highly unlikely they would get it right in two years. Very

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unlikely. But s disagree with Michael here. If Islamism cannot

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take power through democratic means, then the danger is that the

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militants - I mean this is a party that the Islam brotherhood looked to

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create the kind of Government - I agree they didn't do it. There is a

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mixture of intransigence and incompetence from Morsi. But for the

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government to step in and say 48-hours when they could have

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stepped in and said something's got to change and when you could have

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been given longer to do what he said he was going to do in the first

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place and didn't do, there was no lower house still in place in the

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first place in the country, the constitution was a mistake. That

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could have been amended but to say you are looking for another Algiers,

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that's the problem. It led to years of... What is your response? Easy

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wonder if the Army thought that he's going to ask us to sort this out

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because that would be the next thing. If there's 20 million people

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on the streets, you would imagine Morsi was going to say to the Army

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leaders, please get these people home, please help me solve this. The

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Army generals have probably looked around and said, I don't fancy this,

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there is a lot of angry people out there, they are not going to go home

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and we'll lose our own men and have to kill a lot of the people. I

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wonder if they didn't have the stomach for the fight. The danger,

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and it's a dangerer for a fledgling democracy that it's the streets that

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have changed the government. It's not a vote or Parliament, the

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streets have changed the government, just as they changed Mubarak last

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time. That doesn't necessarily lead to Parliamentary democracy? I know,

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but they are desperate and this is a the point I'm making. The people on

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the streets are desperate. When I was last in Egypt, you can sense a

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lawlessness in the air and the sense that ordinary people can't afford to

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eat. You can look around and the towns are crumbling. Crime rates

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have shot up? Yes and when you are hungry and angry and have no way of

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living, you do all you can. They are a largely uneducated nation, so it's

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not as if they are sitting around having intellectual arguments.

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:16:28.:16:28.

see how the Army is going to try to reduce crime, but not produce food?

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That's not the current government's fault. That's years and years of

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neglect. The egg timer's run out. How do you think it's going to end?

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You know, I think there are going to be years of restlessness, but

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instead of talking about the constitution and education, whoever

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comes in, they need to get people back to work and to look at the

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economy. Whoever comes in, that's a very clear, not a simple, but a very

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clear line they have to follow. Thank you for being with us. Thanks

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for having me. It may be late, but we are open all hours which is

:17:05.:17:09.

fitting for a nation of shopkeepers. Speaking of which, waiting in the

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wings, the former Head of Marks & Sparks, Stuart Rose, he's whatter to

:17:16.:17:20.

talk business, politics and the Bank of England. If you think you have

:17:20.:17:24.

the moves like Jagger or Portillo, you can always show them off on the

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Twitter, the fleece back and the interweb dance floor.

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An election two years away should force its way on to the agenda here

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in Westminster. Tom Watson resign today and there was Ed Ed Miliband

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thinking his biggest headache this week was leaving his briefing notes

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for Prime Minister's Questions in a Westminster loo. He'd obviously run

:17:57.:18:06.

out of loo paper. This is Victoria Derbyshire's round-up of the week.

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It's an exciting place, the Westminster village. Always some

:18:11.:18:21.
:18:21.:18:34.

shenanigans going on. The thing is, One thing that's true about life out

:18:34.:18:38.

here, you have to keep your eye on the Jones's, keep your eye on the

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giddy social climb. Politicians are always saying they are not paid as

:18:43.:18:47.

much as so-and-so up the street and you can only afford to live in

:18:47.:18:52.

London if you are a Russian oligarch or banker. But there's always an

:18:52.:18:56.

exception. The public would find it impossible to understand,

:18:56.:18:59.

particularly the millions in the public sector whose pay is only

:18:59.:19:04.

increasing by 1%, they would find it impossible to understand that their

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Parliamentary representatives at a time like this would be receiving

:19:07.:19:11.

pay increases far in excess of that 1%. The job of making sure people

:19:11.:19:17.

don't step out of line and do what they shouldn't - oops - is the job

:19:17.:19:20.

of the Police Service. They can only be a community Police Service if

:19:20.:19:24.

they work on behalf of everyone. Theresa May announced a consultation

:19:24.:19:28.

this week on the controversial use or overuse of stop and search. It

:19:28.:19:32.

comes a week after claims that undercover officers tried to smear

:19:32.:19:36.

the family of teenager Stephen Lawrence after his racist murder.

:19:36.:19:40.

want to see stop and search used only when it's needed. I want to see

:19:40.:19:48.

higher search to arrest ratios and better community engagement.

:19:48.:19:58.
:19:58.:20:01.

# I want to turn the thing upside down... #

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There are plenty of people who want to visit our fare shores and soak up

:20:07.:20:10.

the rich cultural life of London. That's not the only reason they want

:20:10.:20:13.

to come here, according to the Health Secretary. He's announced a

:20:13.:20:18.

crackdown on health tourism. What price xenophobia Tweeted a certain

:20:18.:20:25.

lady of the purple sofa. Oh yeah, she's Shadow Public Health Minister

:20:25.:20:30.

now isn't she? It's a subject that goes down well with Tory

:20:30.:20:33.

backbenchers and David Cameron will be hoping they'll be hanging on his

:20:33.:20:38.

every word. As a doctor once had to listen incredulously to a patient

:20:38.:20:43.

explain via a translator that she only discovered she was nine months

:20:43.:20:49.

pregnant on arrival at Terminal 3 Heathrow, I was very pleased to hear

:20:49.:20:53.

the Secretary of State for Health's statement tourism statement today.

:20:53.:20:58.

hoped there would be all party support for it, but Labour's Health

:20:58.:21:03.

Minister said it was xenophobic. We'll oppose the sensible change

:21:03.:21:11.

which people will roundly support. Mr Hunt wants it made clear that

:21:11.:21:21.
:21:21.:21:28.

visitors from outside the EU will houses is that you can always hear

:21:28.:21:33.

what your neighbours are up to. Normally it's Dave and his

:21:33.:21:36.

neighbours having a domestic. But there's a huge row reverberating all

:21:36.:21:41.

the way from Falkirk. It may be that Ed can't choose his own house mates,

:21:41.:21:45.

particularly if they are paying the rent or buying the bread or keeping

:21:45.:21:50.

the fridge stocked with milk. can't have a go at the vested

:21:50.:21:54.

interest of the Tory party if we don't clear our own house. That's

:21:54.:21:58.

just a fact of life and we have done over the years and we must do so

:21:59.:22:03.

here. For most, it's a bit arcane, the detail of what Unite are

:22:03.:22:06.

supposed to have done. No matter, David Cameron was delighted to

:22:06.:22:14.

suggest over and over that the McCluskey tail was wagging the dog.

:22:14.:22:20.

Of course, it hasn't been praised by Len McCluskey and Unite. Len

:22:20.:22:24.

McKlausty who gave him the job. The press release, Mr Speaker, how Unite

:22:24.:22:28.

plans to change the Labour Party! I know you are paid to shout by Unite,

:22:28.:22:34.

but calm down a bit. This is what it says. "We give millions of pounds to

:22:34.:22:40.

the party, the relationship has to change. We want a firmly class-base

:22:40.:22:45.

and left-wing general election campaign". Ouch. Isn't it meant to

:22:45.:22:50.

be questions to the Prime Minister. ? Oh well, it's a topsy-turvy world.

:22:50.:22:53.

This is a Prime Minister who Haddiners for donors in Downing

:22:53.:22:58.

Street. He gave a tax cut to his Christmas card list and brought Andy

:22:58.:23:05.

Coulson into the heart of Downing Street. The idea that he's lecturing

:23:05.:23:09.

us about ethics takes double standards to a whole new level.

:23:09.:23:13.

Whatever the sound and fury in the Commons, it's the perception of Ed's

:23:13.:23:18.

links with the unions that could prove most damaging, reminding us of

:23:18.:23:22.

the soap opera storiline when Ed beat his brother to the leadership

:23:22.:23:27.

with the packing of the union vote. I spoke to Tom Watson on Tuesday. He

:23:27.:23:30.

felt he was thinking about his position. I said we should consider

:23:30.:23:35.

that. I calm to the conclusion at lunch time today that it was right

:23:35.:23:39.

that he went. I spoke to him and said that. See, I told you. Never a

:23:39.:23:43.

dull moment in our little village. And it's bound to get even more

:23:43.:23:48.

interesting as we head towards the race for the most important address

:23:48.:23:56.

of them all. Cut will! !

:23:56.:24:02.

That wasn't Victoria's home. She hasn't had a huge BBC pay off yet.

:24:02.:24:09.

She was filming at the Dalston house, an artwork commission bed I

:24:09.:24:14.

the Barbican, free to visit until 4th August. You would have to be

:24:14.:24:23.

brave go along. Alp, explain why Tom Watson has resigned? Yes. Falkirk

:24:23.:24:28.

looks very much like someone was bucking the system, trying to

:24:28.:24:33.

distort the election process signing up members. Indeed, there was a rule

:24:33.:24:37.

apparently that I didn't know existed that unions can pay the

:24:37.:24:39.

firstees subscriptions for Labour Party members. They were doing that

:24:39.:24:43.

sometimes without the knowledge of the individual who was joining up to

:24:43.:24:49.

try to distort... Why was that?The election process to get a certain

:24:49.:24:54.

candidate elected. That certain candidate works for Tom Watson and

:24:54.:24:59.

the investigation is going into the Unite union whose General Secretary

:24:59.:25:06.

is Len McCluskey who's an old friend of Tom Watson. I think Tom Watson

:25:06.:25:11.

thought, this is looking too much like I'm part of this story and

:25:11.:25:15.

decided to step aside. It's the right thing to do. Fingerprints are

:25:15.:25:23.

all over it? We'll wait and see what the investigation comes up with.

:25:23.:25:30.

Whatever other reason to resign? Even if his fingerprints aren't all

:25:30.:25:34.

over, this it looks very much like they are. It likes as though the

:25:34.:25:38.

person working in the office is your candidate being selected in this

:25:38.:25:44.

way. I think we could file that under D for difficult. Given that

:25:44.:25:48.

it's bleeding obvious, why did it take two days for Mr Miliband to

:25:48.:25:55.

work out if Mr Watson should resign? I guess he was reluctant to, without

:25:55.:26:01.

the evidence, I mean he did stop the election process straightaway. Not

:26:01.:26:06.

too sure whether he still knows what the final outcome is. He offered to

:26:06.:26:10.

resign two days ago. There is some doubt as to whether - fair enough to

:26:10.:26:14.

say look, we don't know the ins and outs of this yet - there was some

:26:14.:26:19.

evidence that it was the Falkirk party rather than the chairman of

:26:19.:26:25.

the Falkirk party's's been suspended rather than the Unite union. I

:26:25.:26:30.

suppose he wanted to see all the evidence. His spin doctor's put it

:26:30.:26:36.

about after the event today that Mr Watson was effectively fired?

:26:36.:26:43.

Andrew, you are telling me news. I saw Ed Miliband say he's resigned.

:26:43.:26:48.

Tom Watson on the news tonight has resigned. If he was fired... No, you

:26:48.:26:53.

know how spin works, they don't really say that, they kind of imply

:26:53.:26:57.

that this was... Because what they were to counteract by putting it

:26:57.:27:04.

about that this was the slap of firm opposition is the weak, weak, weak

:27:04.:27:14.
:27:14.:27:16.

Mr Planned. That ease what they want to counteract? -- Mr Miliband.

:27:16.:27:20.

He's seen this report for more than two days. He said in that interview,

:27:20.:27:24.

in the clip we ran tonight, and I read the whole transcript, the

:27:24.:27:30.

report clearly concludes that there was a sort sort of mass membership

:27:31.:27:34.

that people were being signed up and the single cheque for them all was

:27:34.:27:38.

being handed over. It's quite clear that that's what was happening.

:27:38.:27:44.

said that, yes. When you see that, you know Mr Watson's link has been

:27:44.:27:48.

pushed with Mr McCluskey and Unite. Whiled you take two days to make

:27:48.:27:53.

your mind up? Look, he's resigned and it's the right thing for him to

:27:53.:28:01.

do. How damaging is it for Labour for this to come back? Damaging. I

:28:01.:28:06.

came back through the militant years. You could turn up at a

:28:06.:28:12.

selection meeting with a pocketful of union votes. That was the one

:28:12.:28:17.

union one vote time. That was the start of the process, not tend,

:28:17.:28:21.

there were other things that needed to change. We know from the report

:28:21.:28:26.

that was leaked that they were out to dominate the selection process in

:28:26.:28:32.

41 constituencies, they have three officials working - their own report

:28:32.:28:38.

- they have three officials working full-time on this, they describe it

:28:38.:28:43.

as "a furious operation" and they are prepared to spend �10,000 on

:28:43.:28:53.
:28:53.:28:56.

each of these operations to get are looking to get people with

:28:56.:29:00.

working backgrounds into Parliament, and many people would say yes to

:29:00.:29:10.

that on all sides of the house. The second bit of it, I have had

:29:10.:29:13.

arguments with people like Len McCluskey four-year is, the second

:29:13.:29:17.

part of it is the view that the reason we did not win elections is

:29:17.:29:21.

because we are not left wing enough. And actually, if you go on a

:29:21.:29:28.

class taste thing, we are the only people you want. Working-class

:29:28.:29:32.

people who have aspiration and get their kids to do well and go to

:29:32.:29:37.

university and qualify, their kids, by this viewpoint, are not fit to be

:29:37.:29:41.

Labour candidates. They might have been sons or daughters of postmen,

:29:41.:29:45.

but they now have university degrees and other jobs. It is very

:29:45.:29:51.

depressing. You are our man on these labour issues. What do you make of

:29:51.:29:58.

how Mr Miliband has handled it? did not think his interview was

:29:58.:30:02.

great. It was the moment when he said he was incredibly angry, whilst

:30:02.:30:07.

sounding not particularly angry. I get the feeling, you are not sorry,

:30:07.:30:13.

you are just sorry you got found out. Sadly, it looks as if full kirk

:30:13.:30:19.

is not particularly isolated. This embarrassment about how Ed Miliband

:30:19.:30:25.

won the leadership had gone away, and this idea that he is the puppet

:30:25.:30:30.

of the union is coming back now is really bad for him, I think. He is

:30:30.:30:38.

not, is he? That is how the perception is created. A year ago,

:30:38.:30:42.

with the report about public sector pay restraint, all hell broke loose

:30:42.:30:47.

from people like Len McCluskey and he stuck to his guns. He said, we

:30:47.:30:52.

will use the 2015-16 spending round as our starting point. Nothing that

:30:52.:31:00.

he has done has been a sop to the unions. We have seen a much more

:31:01.:31:04.

aggressive Prime Minister at Prime Minister 's questions, batting back

:31:04.:31:07.

questions, trying to put the leader of the opposition on the spot, not

:31:07.:31:14.

quite what PMQ 's is about, but that is what he is doing. I would suggest

:31:14.:31:17.

we now see the hand of Lyndon Crosby, the new campaign leader, who

:31:17.:31:23.

will take the Tories into the next campaign, in this more aggressive,

:31:23.:31:29.

targeted approach. I think we do. I thought was a model performance in

:31:29.:31:33.

that he repeated the point about Unite again and again. David Cameron

:31:33.:31:37.

has not been good at repeating points. If you want to get something

:31:37.:31:40.

across in politics you have to say until everybody is fed up of hearing

:31:40.:31:45.

it. But I think it is coincidental with what Tories regard as a

:31:45.:31:48.

seachange the political landscape, Labour backing down on schools

:31:48.:31:54.

reform, backing down on public spending, the National Health

:31:54.:31:58.

Service being such a mess, which put them on the back foot, and now the

:31:58.:32:03.

Unite issue. So it has been a pretty good four-week period for the

:32:03.:32:10.

Tories. I think it surprised them to find themselves in this position.

:32:10.:32:16.

Moving on, should MPs get a pay rise? Objectively, MPs are

:32:16.:32:22.

underpaid. But whether you can actually give them an enormous, ten

:32:22.:32:26.

grand or more pay rise in the current climate, you might term

:32:26.:32:34.

Parliament Square into Tahrir Square. It would be so provocative.

:32:34.:32:40.

By what objective criteria are MPs underpaid? Sarah Wollaston, who was

:32:40.:32:45.

a GP, had the guts to point out that she took a �40,000 pay cut to become

:32:45.:32:51.

an MP. I took a huge pay cut to come and do this. D-Ream and we are very

:32:51.:33:01.
:33:01.:33:08.

grateful. And we are very grateful. There is one camp that says, the pay

:33:08.:33:11.

is about right, and another that says apply the recommendations, but

:33:11.:33:17.

there are not many people in that camp, in the outside of Parliament.

:33:18.:33:22.

I suspect their pay should be higher but I do not see any way they can

:33:22.:33:26.

take it. They used to vote for their home page and then they were told

:33:26.:33:30.

not to vote for it. And now they are told they cannot take the

:33:30.:33:34.

recommendation from the independent body. Three votes for no pay rise. I

:33:34.:33:39.

am sorry. Now, unlike the stiffs over on Today

:33:39.:33:42.

or Newsnight, we're totally rock 'n' roll here on This Week. And as the

:33:42.:33:46.

BBC's only political super-group, we know how to put on a show. As the

:33:46.:33:49.

charismatic front man, I like to rock the mike. As the sharp-dressed

:33:49.:33:52.

lead guitarist, Alan likes to wield the conversational axe. And as the

:33:52.:33:54.

onstage backing dancer, hired largely for his pretty boy looks,

:33:54.:33:57.

Michael's more than happy to shake his maracas and make the girls

:33:57.:34:03.

scream. So when it comes to performing, in business or in

:34:03.:34:07.

politics, just how much does star quality really matter? We've decided

:34:07.:34:11.

to turn our amps up to 11, and find out, and put rock stars in this

:34:11.:34:21.
:34:21.:34:32.

after 50 years in the business, and pulling a record crowd in the

:34:32.:34:36.

process, proves rock stars do not get any bigger than the still

:34:36.:34:41.

Rolling Stones, unless your name is Mark Carney and you are the new

:34:41.:34:46.

governor of the Bank of England. His arrival at Threadneedle Street this

:34:46.:34:49.

week was greeted with knicker throwing delight. Elvis has well and

:34:49.:34:54.

truly into the building. At Old Trafford, the new manager has even

:34:54.:34:59.

bigger boots to fill, yet Manchester United decided against hiring a rock

:34:59.:35:04.

star manager, judging there were enough superstars out on the pitch.

:35:04.:35:08.

So, are charismatic leader is the key to success, or do they end up

:35:08.:35:12.

being more trouble than they are worth? Would politics be better

:35:12.:35:16.

served by leaders with genuine star quality, rather than the dull middle

:35:16.:35:23.

managers we seem to have today? SAS have a famous motto. Who dares

:35:23.:35:33.
:35:33.:35:35.

wins. We dare. We will win. If only they made them like they used to!

:35:35.:35:40.

They don't make them like they used to. Thank God for that. Stuart Rose

:35:40.:35:47.

is with us. Looking like a rock star with your scarf. I have just come

:35:47.:35:50.

from a wedding and I am proud to wear it to celebrate a friend's

:35:50.:35:58.

wedding. You can wear what you want. As long as it is not his shirt. We

:35:58.:36:02.

used to talk of the rockstar Chief Executive, and you were regarded as

:36:03.:36:09.

a rock star Chief Executive. They have gone out of favour. We live in

:36:09.:36:12.

a 24-hour world. What happens in Cairo or Los Angeles is known a

:36:12.:36:16.

minute later, and if you are a leader you have to be able to react

:36:16.:36:22.

to all of the inputs coming towards you. It is a 21st century need. You

:36:22.:36:26.

cannot avoid it. You have to be good at media, whether spoken media,

:36:26.:36:33.

visual, social, and that is part and parcel of the job. From that has

:36:33.:36:40.

come the cult of personality. do not really know, the public in

:36:40.:36:45.

general, do not really know who the Chief Executive 's of all of the

:36:45.:36:51.

FTSE 100 companies are. Well, they know more than they used to know.

:36:51.:36:57.

They do not know your successor. They probably do. I can break it

:36:57.:37:01.

into sectors. I used to ask journalists why they wrote about

:37:01.:37:04.

Marks and Spencer and they said business is a subject that readers

:37:04.:37:09.

are interested in and people relate to the shop. They used to use it as

:37:09.:37:15.

an example. But they wrote about it because of you as well. I had an

:37:16.:37:19.

unusual start. In my first week there was a battle with Philip Green

:37:19.:37:25.

about the ownership, in private or public. We had to ramp it up and it

:37:25.:37:31.

became personalised. Did he try to hit you? People me from my car and

:37:31.:37:37.

made accusations, yes. I forgot about that. Is it more important to

:37:38.:37:42.

have the front man or the backing band? A front man is only as good as

:37:43.:37:48.

the backing band that he has got. The Americans have an expression,

:37:48.:37:52.

all hat and no cattle. There is no point in having the hat if you have

:37:52.:37:57.

not also got the capital. If you are Mark Carney, coming to the Bank of

:37:57.:38:03.

England, clearly, he has to know a lot about economics, has to have a

:38:03.:38:07.

track record, has to have all the skills necessary to get people to

:38:07.:38:12.

deliver what they have to deliver and reform the banking sector. But

:38:12.:38:16.

he also needs to sell the story. In our world, that is an extra skill

:38:16.:38:21.

that he needs, and he seems to have it. But it can work against you

:38:21.:38:26.

because if it goes wrong, it goes wrong big-time. Are we not building

:38:26.:38:33.

him up for a great fall? Possibly. When Mervyn King took over, it years

:38:33.:38:36.

for him to be well-known but this man is like the Mick Jagger of

:38:36.:38:41.

central banking. It can only go downhill. There is a danger that you

:38:41.:38:51.
:38:51.:38:51.

build up expectations. Enoch Powell always said that political careers

:38:51.:38:56.

ended in tears. What do you think of the way we are building up Mark

:38:56.:39:02.

Carney to be this Superman from Canada? I think it probably starts

:39:02.:39:05.

with the government. The government is so worried about growth, jobs and

:39:05.:39:10.

what is going to happen to interest rates, that I think they feel they

:39:10.:39:14.

have a golf bag with no clubs in it. The one thing they are hoping

:39:14.:39:19.

for is that Mark Carney can pull something out of the fire. I think

:39:19.:39:22.

this build-up of Mark Carney as a superstar has emanated from a

:39:22.:39:27.

feeling that ministers are putting so much reliance on him. On the

:39:27.:39:31.

general point about superstars, I think they are good for periods of

:39:31.:39:35.

change your crisis. I think of Margaret Thatcher and Winston

:39:35.:39:38.

Churchill. Extraordinarily in history, the government that

:39:38.:39:41.

achieved most in terms of social change was the post-war Labour

:39:41.:39:49.

government, which was led by a managerial type. The opposite of a

:39:49.:39:54.

rockstar. A bank manager of the old-fashioned sort. He just got on

:39:54.:40:01.

with it. I can understand the superstar, chief executive,

:40:01.:40:04.

politician, but Governor of the Bank of England, I would think that

:40:04.:40:08.

public want something different. Clement Attlee type figure might be

:40:08.:40:13.

more reassuring than a George Clooney superstar. What is the most

:40:13.:40:21.

important word today for people, trust. Without being too flippant

:40:21.:40:24.

commie cannot trust teachers in some places, you cannot trust the police

:40:24.:40:27.

because they record on the serrations, you cannot trust your

:40:27.:40:32.

bank manager, so people want to trust people. I suspect in Mark

:40:32.:40:36.

Carney, the expectations are very high. They are genuine

:40:36.:40:40.

expectations, so let's hope he does deliver. Because the backlash will

:40:40.:40:45.

be difficult if he does not. demands of the modern age force

:40:45.:40:50.

rockstar types into positions you would not associate with being a

:40:50.:40:53.

rockstar, whether Governor of the Bank of England, leader of political

:40:53.:40:58.

parties. As you say, you have to perform well in the media to get on

:40:58.:41:02.

in a particular profession. And if you do, the media take more interest

:41:02.:41:08.

in you. And people like big personalities. They complain about

:41:08.:41:14.

the grey, the Dahl, every politician today, with two exceptions here,

:41:14.:41:20.

every politician comes from the same mould, on the left and the right.

:41:20.:41:23.

Absolutely true. We have seen high-profile examples of people who

:41:23.:41:32.

were very high end up fallen very low. Are you looking over here?

:41:32.:41:36.

is the problem with the approach in politics and public life. Most rock

:41:36.:41:42.

stars seem to go on forever. But in public life, quite often the

:41:42.:41:46.

faster, the further you rise and become a rockstar type, the more

:41:46.:41:53.

brutal the fall. It is interesting, the question about why they deliver.

:41:53.:42:00.

Rock stars keep delivering the same old stuff, the old favourites.

:42:01.:42:05.

just say that Boris is to watch out for that, because he is being built

:42:05.:42:10.

up into this huge charismatic figure. To be successful anywhere,

:42:10.:42:13.

as Stewart said, you need the backing band, whether the cabinet,

:42:13.:42:18.

or people working around him. You cannot do in government what you can

:42:18.:42:24.

do in a more ceremonial role as the Mayor of London. Boris is a really

:42:24.:42:27.

charismatic guy and I want to see him built up and built up and built

:42:27.:42:36.

up. Tony Blair was a rockstar politician. He was, and so was

:42:36.:42:42.

Margaret Thatcher. And in a 24-7 media, people are looking much more

:42:42.:42:46.

now to the Prime Minister, rather than the cabinet. Clement Attlee,

:42:46.:42:51.

famously when he was being interviewed, the BBC asked if he had

:42:51.:42:57.

anything to say and he said, no. You would never get away with that now.

:42:57.:43:03.

Now, you do not answer the question but you speak for three minutes. Not

:43:03.:43:08.

you personally! If you could come back in this life, would you come

:43:08.:43:18.
:43:18.:43:20.

back as yourself or Mick Jagger? Mick Jagger, he is the lead singer

:43:20.:43:27.

of a rock band. I thought it was a difficult philosophical question. I

:43:27.:43:34.

would say myself, but I hope I mean that. Jagger. Paul McCartney.

:43:35.:43:40.

shopping in Marks & Spencer? Yes. That's your lot for tonight folks,

:43:40.:43:43.

but not for us, because it's Abu Qatada's going away party at

:43:43.:43:47.

Annabel's, and we're all off to say our final goodbyes to one of This

:43:47.:43:49.

Week's oldest and most loyal viewers. Hello, Mrs Q. Don't wait

:43:49.:43:56.

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