04/02/2016 This Week

Tonight on This Week, 'Deal or no deal'?

The Prime Minister's been busy on the phone trying

to sell his draft EU reform deal and win the prize of staying

The Economist's, Anne McElvoy ponders whether we'll accept

Dave raced out of Downing Street announcing he had won the jackpot.

Not everyone was convinced but he was so carried away that he headed

straight to Wiltshire. David Cameron thinks top

universities need to offer a better deal to attract more black

and minority ethnic students. Jazz musician, Soweto Kinch,

doesn't think the PM fully No, I don't think it's going to be

enough to tinker with the edges of the admissions process without root

and branch reform. No deal. And, the bankers gamble; Razorlight

front-man Johnny Borrell joins us to talk about music

on the campaign trail. If it's serious politics you're

after, I'm afraid this box is practically empty.

Open a bottle of Blue Nun, Deal or no deal?

Evenin' all, welcome to This Week, the show with no emergency brake.

Unlike Call-me-Dave who has more need of one than us now he's ratted

The PM made very clear this week that when it comes to Europe,

Even if it's Brussels that tells him when to put them on.

So forget the European Court of Justice.

Because Call-Me-Dave's draft deal means those pesky EU migrants

will no longer be free to travel to good old Blighty,

get a job, use public services, pay their taxes or watch This Week

while claiming in-work welfare benefits.

Now they'll be free to travel to Blighty, get a job,

use public services, pay their taxes and watch This Week

while only able to claim in-work benefits on a graduated basis.

This is how victory must have felt on VE day!

Of course, for the emergency brake to be granted by Brussels,

Call-Me-Dave will first have to admit that immigration is out

of control,that he's still failed to honour his manifesto pledge,

made way back in 2010, to cut immigration to

But the PM said it was a 'no ifs no buts' pledge so I'm confident,

confident he'll keep his word, control immigration and have no need

of that Brussels brake, emergency or otherwise.

Speaking of rewards for failure, I'm joined on the sofa tonight

by two guests most apposite for the week in which Hilary Clinton

won some Iowa precincts by the flip of a coin.

Think of them as a couple of British political tossers.

The heads-I-win, tails-you-lose of late night political chat.

I speak, of course, of #manontheleft Alan 'AJ' Johnson,

and #sadmanonatrain Michael 'choo choo' Portillo.

Your moment of the week? Today, there was a donor's conference for

countries to put money into helping refugees from Syria in the region,

and this led to the showing of footage of what is going on in the

region. UCB 's refugee camps stretching beyond what the human eye

can take in. -- you see them. Apparently 4 million displaced

within the region, 12 million within Syria itself. When you think about

these numbers, you think how frightened Europe is about possibly

1 million refugees per year throughout continental Europe, but

you have possibly 16 million displaced people in the region. On

the one hand it certainly makes it very sensible to

the one hand it certainly makes it refugees in the region, and it is

certainly a place where our overseas aid budget and national interest

coincide. But it also makes you realise what a tide of miserable,

suffering humanity varies very close to the European border. With more to

come. This conference met, but half a mile from here President Assad's

ground forces were pounding Aleppo, the biggest city in

ground forces were pounding Aleppo, thousands of people fleeing these

border. And apart from that, a gem border. And apart from that, a gem

places you can go. Alan Johnson. Tax. There has not

places you can go. Alan Johnson. politician for over 30 years who has

proposed an increase in the politician for over 30 years who has

rate of tax but Kezia Dugdale, the leader in Scotland did so

rate of tax but Kezia Dugdale, the I think she has been very bold and I

think she is right. In the I think she has been very bold and I

of Scottish politics, whether nationalists have blamed Westminster

for austerity but declined to use the powers they have two increased

for austerity but declined to use taxes, I think it makes it very

interesting for a party to say, actually, we will save those public

service jobs by doing that we have the power to do. And I think Kezia

Dugdale has made waves this week with that. Isn't it the sort of

thing a permanent secretary would call very brave? Very interesting,

Minister. In a British context, certainly.

Now, Call-me-Dave began the week with a wide-ranging attack

on a number of British institutions, including the Armed Forces,

big business, the court system, and top universities.

Dave accused them of "ingrained and insidious" attitudes

towards people of colour, and poor white males.

He said it "should shame our nation" that so few black students studied

at Oxford, calling on his old university to do much more.

According to Dave, "if you're a young black man, you're more

likely to be in a prison cell than studying at a top university".

Well, one young black man who is very much not in prison

is MOBO award-winning jazz musician and Oxford graduate,

I'm proud to have studied at Oxford but less

proud of an endemic strain of racism.

Over the past few months, I've watched coverage

of the lilywhite Oscars, Idris Elba in Parliament,

and the furore over the Cecil Rhodes Must Fall campaign

with a sense of mounting frustration.

Frustration that threatened to boil over when I saw

David Cameron talking about the need to get more black and ethnic

Because I believe all of this is diversionary

It's no use tinkering around the edges.

Unless we radically reframe our notions of British history,

20 years ago, when I went to Oxford, I headed the Africa Society

and the Black Caucus, presiding over a grand

I think we were all convinced that two decades

later there'd be hundreds more black and brown students there,

making Oxford a more diverse and interesting place.

But we couldn't have been more wrong.

The same is replicated on stage and screen with our canon

of cultural icons and the teaching of British values.

Young black Britons are being sold a version, an image of Britishness

It's only once these myths are systematically unpicked

that we are going to see a drive and increased

The Rhodes Must Fall campaign is great

because for the first time black students aspiring to go to Oxbridge

can see that there is a critical community prepared to interrogate

I say top marks to David Cameron for raising the issue,

and to Business Secretary Sajid Javid for speaking out

about being called a Paki in the playground.

But until we take a long, hard look at the way

we frame our British story, nothing is going to change.

From beautiful melodies at the 606 Club to clanging cymbals

here in Westminster, Soweto Kinch joins us now.

Welcome to the programme. You talk of institutional racism but 13% of

British undergraduates at Oxford are from ethnic backgrounds, higher than

the percentage of the non-white population in the wider population.

24% if you include postgraduates. Why is that racism? I think it is

easy, perhaps comforting just to look at figures but the whole reason

Cameron made this remark is coming on the heels of the Idris Elba said

about the Oscars and the Cecil Rhodes must fall campaign. We

appreciate there is a problem, but look elsewhere. I am saying that all

of these issues are connected. But you said in your piece that it had

got worse since you were at university but actually it is much

better. You can look at figures, but look at the response to the

campaign. Done the figures matter? They do, but look at the response to

the campaign. There is a kickback of, we dealt with that and it is a

long time in the past. Nobody knows what Mr deeds, what crimes Cecil

Rhodes is accused of, and for that reason, the implacable nature of the

discussion, we're not even going to broach this subject. I understand

that Cecil Rhodes is another argument but Oxbridge does not

determine everything. Take the Russell Group, 18% of their students

in Russell Group universities are from ethnic minority backgrounds.

That is a much higher percentage than the population at large, so why

is that evidence of racism? Again, I think it is so easy to obsess on

figures as though a certain percentage, a certain level will be

OK and we have dealt with racism. What are these graduates going on to

do, what jobs will they occupy, what views will they espouse? Will they

be people other black students will aspire to be? That is a bigger

question than 13 or 12%. You said we need to radically reframe British

history. What does that mean? Let's look at Cecil Rhodes, for example.

Many people are aware he was a little bit racist, maybe, but not

that he stole 1 million hectares of land, Hitler was a great admirer, on

record as saying this is the only way to be an Anglo-Saxon. And he was

a predatory paedophile. That has not been talked about. They pulled down

the Jimmy Savile statue a few days after the revelations and there was

no outcry against that. This man has been dead for a very long time, and

yet there is this reaction, we don't want to talk about it, we don't want

to acknowledge your victimhood. What is your reaction, Alan Johnson, to

the general point of the number of ethnic minority students going to

university? The number of ethnic minorities in Parliament is 6.5%. My

view of this, I was higher education minister over ten years ago, is that

Oxbridge and Cambridge were going out of their way to try to attract

students. It is not just black minority ethnic but poorer working

class students, state school kids. The problem is much earlier on. The

problem was around teachers who squashed the aspiration, don't ever

think of going to Oxbridge. If you do think of those as hallowed turf.

So David Cameron, who has got rid of education and maintenance allowance,

turned student grants into student loans for poorer students. All of

that was important. He has cut back on the aim higher staff that was all

about universities like Oxford and Cambridge working at primary school

level, never mind secondary school, to raise the sites of children to

say, you can go to university. If black kids don't apply, they will

not be able to take them in. If they think, it is not for me, for

whatever reason, then they are not going to apply and will not get in.

All of that needs to be tackled and that is more important than having a

go at Oxford and Cambridge. It is stuff David Cameron is in charge of.

First off, for some explanation on the disagreement about the figures,

as I understand it, the ethnic minorities are largely made up of

students of Indian background and it remains the case that black

Caribbean, black African are represented by a very small number.

They are not, actually. Almost 3% of the intake was black into Oxford

last year, and that 3% black is the population as a whole. 5% were of

Asian origin. That is about the population as a whole. OK.

Can Goyt on to make another point. Alan is right, it's extraordinary

the Prime Minister goes on to target Oxford University. We have not had a

black chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staffs, which is the head of the

military. Which was Colin Powell? Yes, we have not had people anywhere

near those positions. The problem lies largely in our education

system, it may also lie with parents, by the way, but it will lie

rely on our education system. To decide that you are going to attack

Oxford University for this strikes me as odd. The reason is because

again it comes on the back of the heels of the Cecil Rhodes outcry. I

was at a similar event in Birmingham where Ed vasy talked about his

legacy as cultural minister and also making a big push given what Idris

Elba said about diversity and the arts and it's a fear of not being

seen on the wrong side of the debate without grass roots understanding of

how to implement the diverse objectives and change perceptions of

what Oxford is like. We can talk all day about 12-13%, no undergraduate

is going to look and say, what are the indices, is this a friendly

place for me to study. It's a way of judging whether the university is

place for me to study. It's a way of institutionally racist or not and if

it's taking in the rough equivalent to the population as a whole,

it's taking in the rough equivalent think it's hard to argue and, if

we... The racism... If we look at opportunity

would like to see, and social mobility, the worst performing

social mobility, the worst performing

educationally are white, working class boys.

ALL SPEAK AT class boys.

They are way underrepresented? They have a

They are way underrepresented? They schools. Kings College

Cambridge, a higher percentage. A whole college set up

Cambridge, a higher percentage. A advancement of women. These are not

working class boys? These are excellent state schoolboys. In the

case of a woman's college, there is a paucity of representation. We set

up St Margaret's to combat that and others. Separate black college? No,

I'm not saying that, I'm saying why is there this reaction? The numbers

are here. I don't think anybody is saying we have done enough, I'm

wondering if it's add bass as you made out it was and I suggest the

figures don't show that. If there was one major change you could make

that would help things, what would it be? The debate seems to move

around a lot and I would like to enable people to see that the

connections really between the risk, the Oscar ceremonies, what's

happening here at Oxford and with Cecil Rhodes, it's not isolated

events, but actually a fundamental challenge to what we think of when

we hear this is what a British President looks like, this is what

an Oxford graduate looks like. There is no box for us on the census form

no, black British thing for us to fill in, it's black African or black

Caribbean, where is our sense of belonging to this notion of

Britishness, our sense of belonging if after 60-70 years of being here,

my grandma came in in 1954, not to mention the Africans who brought the

wealth to this country, can we get a box on a census form, a sense of

what it is to be British? Thank you for joining us.

Now it's late, Diane Abbott hiding under Jeremy Corbyn's duvet late.

So if the story is true, and who are we to doubt it,

Because waiting in the wings, Johnny Borrell is here

to talk about the politics of campaign music.

And remember, we've put new batteries in The Twitter,

the Fleecebook, the MySpace, YourSpace, their Space

and And Gordon Brown's Intergalactic Web Sphere.

Now I know what you're thinking, this is a game-changer.

Meat Le Blanc is joining Top Gear. Bet his benefits aren't being

graduated! After the ground-breaking victory in the deal, I hear Mr

Cameron's already on the phone to the Top Gear producers so we asked

Anne McElvoy for the inside track on the week behind closed doors at

Downing Street. Matt Le Blanc, next you'll be telling me Tom Cruise will

be presenting Great British Railway Journeys!

Downing Street switchboard here, your call is important to us, hold

one moment please. Everyone's been trying to get hold of the Prime

Minister this week but he's been ever so busy battling for Britain.

He's in Chippenham, dear... # Call me on the line call me

# Call me any, any time... # The PM's been threatening to hang up

on Europe for a while now and on Monday night it all came to a head.

He hosted a dinner for EU chief Donald tusk to sort out once and for

all the terms of British renegotiation. I hear it all got

rather heated. Dave wouldn't let Donald go until he tried at least

one of Sam's Bake Off vol-au-vents. Sometimes people say to me, if you

weren't in the European Union would you opt to join the European Union.

And today I can give a very clear answer, if I could get these terms

for British membership, I sure would opt in. Downing Street, how can I

direct your call... Hello, it's Donald, could you pass

on the message to David and Samantha, I wanted to thank them for

a lovely evening last night and say, Angela, so pleased. Dave hasn't been

inundated with messages of support. He hasn't got that much out of it.

It's a phased in tweak. He's relying on an enJr. Tellic dash and a photo

generalic press conference to trumpet his triumphs because he

knows perhaps he hasn't got that much to sell. The switchboard's been

lighting up all day and Nigel is here letting off steam. If you look

at the renegotiate package, it was hardly worth the wait, it's pathetic

really. The demands from the Government are limited and they have

been watered down. The Prime Minister has been going around

Europe asking other European leaders if we in Britain can change our own

benefit laws. It's true that some people were

always going to hate whatever Cameron brought back, but his real

worry is his Cabinet colleagues and some of them are being put on hold.

They think Cameron is trying to give himself an unfair advantage in the

campaign, but the PM is trying to flush out sceptics, not all are easy

to get hold of just in case they have to commit to something.

Greetings, you have reached the voice mail of Boris Johnson MP,

sorry I can't come to the phone right now, but if you leave a

message I will endeavour with every fibre to return your call...

The PM's exuberant dash to share the good news with Chippenham left the

Labour Leader rather cross. Yes, Jeremy Corbyn adopted the tone and

all of the excitement as a slightly aanied chemistry teacher. It's

rather strange that the Prime Minister is not here, only two of

his Cabinet colleagues appear to be in attendance today and the Prime

Minister, and I should be pleased about this, I suppose, seems to

think he should be in Chippenham paying homage to the town where I

was born making a speech about negotiations with the European

Union, rather than his duty is to report to this House first.

There were more than a few crossed words in this tangled euro tale

though. If you are a sceptic like Jeremy Corbyn, but you have done a

deal with your own party to back Britain in Europe, what else can you

do but complain about procedural niceties? At PMQs, both party

leaders avoided Europe and it was down to the SNP to shout down the

line about the question about when we might actually vote. The First

Ministers of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have written today

saying that they believe holding a referendum in June, and I quote

"risks confusing issues when clarity is required and call on the Prime

Minister to defer the EU referendum at least until later in the year".

PHONE RINGS Hello, David, it's William here,

your close friend and allie. Sorry to go on about all the red

card business, but I did tell you so.

Hello, David, it's Jeremy phoning again. Pardon me, call me back,

please, at your convenience. We could talk about drain covers.

On Wednesday, the PM finally came to the Commons to talk about Europe.

And it could have gone a lot worse for him. In fact, it was all getting

a bit dull until one MP decided the time was right for a Frank call.

-- prank call. The Prime Minister is making the best of a bad job, but I

regret to inform you that my position is still what it was

yesterday morning. Boris is a long-distance caller, for him the

question isn't Britain in Europe it's whether a pro-European Tory can

lead the party after Dave. But there's still a long way to go with

this chatter and tomorrow Dave's been invited to Donald Tusk's place

in Poland. I think that's him on the line now. David, it's the Donald,

it's a fix... Oh, no, it's the wrong Donald. I'm coming to London whether

you like it or not, if I win, it's the White House, if I lose it's the

celebrity big brother House, I'm coming to London, everyone loves me.

The number has been disconnected... Miranda and our guest are here now.

Miranda, what were you going to do? Vote remain. Belgian chocolates?

Would have been lovely actually. The milk Tray man! This referendum that

we are going to have is on a much more than the four points the Prime

Minister's decided to focus on over the last six months and for the next

two weeks as well so I think we should all sort of lift ourself

sights from -- our sights from the minutiae. I assume your mind hasn't

been changed to leave? Not in the least. He asked for nothing, he's

got less than nothing, if that's possible, and if you read some of

the foreign newspapers, the European newspapers, as I did this morning,

even they are ridiculing what he's now

even they are ridiculing what he's It's pretty messy. Is your side of

the argument Alan you want to stay, is the settlement helpful, can you

use it to try to encourage people to say we should stay? He's got the

ever closer union sidelined, that doesn't mean political integration,

there are some generalised things? It's helpful for the Prime Minister

to be saying it's a good deal and recommending it. He's the elected

Prime Minister, I basically agree with Miranda, but just to speak up

for the Prime Minister, I've heard about people bang on about ever

closer union over and again for the last God knows when. It's the phrase

from the Treaty of Rome. Ever closer union of the people of Britain with

subsidiarity. No-one mentions that, so in that sense, in the context of

the package he went out to get, actually if they are your big

issues, I don't know why people aren't applauding that. They are not

my big issues. There's nothing he could have brought back? That is

true, but given that people have been banging on about sovereignty

and this preamble to the protocol of ever closer union, he's gone and

done something about that. With all due respect, what we do know is that

immigration tops the polls in terms of people's concerns. We also had

immigration tops the polls in terms Prime Minister who consistently and

constantly pledged to do something about immigration, and he hasn't

actually dealt with that at all. I'm only defending him so far! Let us

hear what Michael has to say. This an issue about wages. Michael, is

the settlement helpful in terms of the substance or is

the settlement helpful in terms of in that it clears the ground and

allows the Prime Minister to get in to argue for Britain to stay in? It

gives the Prime Minister a clear run to make his argument for the next

few weeks without any Tories in the Cabinet being able to say anything

different. So that's white important. -- quite important. It

seems he's done enough to scare off Theresa May and Boris Johnson who

might have come out against it. It seems that the tide of events is

moving away from them which is significant in that respect but I

absolutely agree with Miranda that the settlement has nothing to do

with the case really. You should be voting on whether you want to be in

the European Union or not and the leave case should be principally

about where we want decisions to be made. Do you want them to be made by

a British Parliament which is accountable to us or not. You say it

may have scared off Theresa May, not entirely clear if it's scared off

Boris Johnson yet. I'm sure he's watching the polls closely to make a

big issue of principle on this. In Poland? ! A YouGov poll in the Times

tomorrow has leave 45%, remain 36%, take out the don't knows and it's

56-44. Maybe one of the big beasts who is

Euro-sceptic, if there are more polls like that, they may pitch in

with the campaign. From my point of view, let's hope

that is the case. Are you an outer? Of course. I am worried about the

consequences of voting to remain. It is the opposite of what David

Cameron says. We will have no more influence on trying to stop the

things we do not want, because the European Union will know we can

never again threatened to leave. They need not worry what Britain

thinks, because that horse will have bolted. We would still have the 2011

European referendum act which allows us to vote on any further movement

of powers from London to Brussels. Yes, although such referendums were

promised again and again after treaty change and none was held.

Don't you think one of the things that has happened in the last few

years is that all of the talk from previous Prime Minister is about

Britain at the heart of Europe, that era has gone. Everyone now has

really accepted the idea that Britain and the British people want

a sort of associate membership, something different from the idea of

a crusading central role in the EU. I think that favours the remain

campaign, even though the polls look tricky. But really what you are

saying... We will carry on moaning about it but we will vote to remain

and moan, essentially. Because all the things you and your party

believed in for all those years have been shown to be very bad and

damaging, now it is safe to remaining in the European Union.

That seems extraordinary coming from you. History has moved on, the

European Union is something different. Let me come to Diane.

This poll tomorrow, the polls have been wrong, the poll was wrong for

the Scottish referendum in the final weekend, but this is an interesting

poll. Given that you are ten points ahead in this poll, if you actually

had a leader and were not look knocking lumps out of each other,

think how big your lead might be. I think the announcement is going to

be that we are going to be back in the go campaign. Vote leaves have

managed to self-destruct this week. Their two lead members have

effectively... This is the one with Peter Bowden. You say that Ukip is

going to do that? Absolutely. What about leave. EU? That will be part

of the process, one of the components. There have been numerous

overtures to them, numerous overtures to say, come on, let's

area our differences, work towards the same goal. They have rebuffed

those again and again. This week, there have been changes at board

level. You still have not sorted it out. They have not. So who is going

to lead the campaign? That is to be decided. Aren't you running out of

time? The moment this deal is done, the Prime Minister becomes the

leader, doing it day fact already, he is the leader, the Prime

Minister, and he will swing particularly Conservative votes. Who

is your lead going to be? Can I correct you on one thing? We still

have to get to the 18th of February before the other 27 member states

decide they will accept what is on the table. That is a fair point, and

the Prime Minister cannot afford for this deal to be significantly

watered down. His own side already thinks it is as weak as water

anyway. If anything, there might be more rabbits out of the hat before

the 19th of February, or by the 22nd when it comes to Parliament. But you

just reminded me about the eurozone. If your concerns are about Britain's

position as a non-Eurozone country, and there are nine at the moment and

there are likely to be only two, that is the one bit of the package I

thought was more than a sideshow. That is fairly substantial, what he

has achieved, to play devils advocate again. Are you in danger of

losing the campaign? Of course, it is a plebiscite, you can go either

way. No one should be complacent. It looks like you have a lot of the

press against you. The headlines are hostile. It is not just the press,

look at the statements from other European leaders. They are already

talking about some aspects being discriminatory, these are the words

they are using, already pushing back and saying, it is not something that

we can sell. They have to sell it domestically. This is not just a UK

issue, it is domestic politics for France, Germany... That suggests the

package is substantial. It is not substantial but all the other

European countries... No, what I am saying, Alan... Of course, it is a

sideshow but not a bad sideshow. We only have four months of this, I

can't wait to get stuck in. In 1975, only the morning Star came out for

leaving. Circulation of 14,000. It will be different this time. Do they

still have 14,000? That extraordinary Daily Mail front page

yesterday, who will speak for England, you will have some extreme

rhetoric. Again, the one thing I agree with is that they said this

was a historic moment and it was about more than David Cameron. We

will have more historic moments. Now, when it comes to choosing music

for our films here on This Week, Sure, Alan likes to think he knows

what the kidz are getting down to. But Michael's knowledge of Chicago

'juke', Atlanta 'trap', and East London 'grime'

is breath-takingly encyclopaedic. So when we told Michael

we were planning to discuss the role of popular music in electoral

politics, he was almost giddy with excitement and that's why

we decided to put campaign music # Finally I can see

you crystal clear #. Donald Trump might be striking

a chord with some Americans but not This week Adele added her name

to a catalogue of artist who've complained about Republicans using

their music at campaign rallies. So is it a question of musical

differences between artists and candidates, or just something

about Republican politics? Democratic hopeful Bernie Sanders

managed to find himself a backing # This land was made

for you and me #. Taking to the stage with Indie

rockers, Vampire Weekend, Is politics a part of pop

like it used to be? Musicians are certainly wary

of Party Politics nowadays, though with Charlotte Church

and others hitting the road tonight for the Jeremy Corbyn

for Prime Minister tour, perhaps red wedge

is back in fashion. # All my life, there's

panic in America #. Election time and you can't escape

the news from the US as Razorlight's Johnny Borell once

sang, but when it's all eyes and ears on the campaign trail,

are politicians and artists just out That was Johnny Borrell, and here he

is, welcome to the programme. If a politician you did not agree with

whose views bore no resemblance to yours used his campaign to come

onstage to one of your songs, it bother you? I would be annoyed, and

I would very quickly say, sorry, please don't use our music, or my

voice. And would you reach for lawyers? It's only the lawyers that

win in that case, isn't it? But it would follow that you sympathise

with Adele? Absolutely, yes. I think Donald Trump has used music, has

found that in using almost anybody's music, they are turning round and

saying, I am sorry, could you not do that. Michael Stipe from REM said do

not use our music or my voice for your moronic show rather of a

campaign. Neal Young came out as well, which I think is right. Quite

a lot of American artists have complained about politicians using

their music but overwhelmingly it has been Republican politicians. I

guess because most artists are Democrats. Yes, I think most artists

are definitely Liberal and left-leaning. If you bear in mind

that American politics, even the centre, is far more to the right

than where we are in Britain almost anywhere... Bernie Sanders is doing

his best to change that. Absolutely. It is wonderful to have somebody who

refers to himself as a socialist getting half the democratic votes in

a state in America. You would not have imagined that six months ago.

He could win New Hampshire, to. After that, the going might get

rough when he heads south. Do you think it could help a politician to

have a really good, upbeat music that they can become associated

with? We always remember things can only get better with Tony Blair and

that helped for a while. Sure. Music is very powerful. When you put it to

images, it can have a great effect that talking, standing on a soapbox

and renting is not going to have. It is interesting, we are talking about

Bernie Sanders, he had an advert just now which is essentially a

music video. It is Simon and Garfunkel's America and there is no

talking, just images of Americans. At the end it says, this was

approved by the Bernie Sanders campaign. I don't think Paul Simon

and Art Garfunkel will be too unhappy about that. They might want

some royalties. I assume they will get them. It is very powerful

because it is just a music video. Musicians and 1980s got more

involved in party politics. They get involved in issues, I would suggest,

now. You have got involved in issues, but not party politics. Yes,

I think that my own personal feeling was being in the media through the

band, I felt it was right to talk about things you thought were

important. And to highlight them. Which was interesting, because there

was a lot of cynicism about that. It was like, this guy is trying to be a

save the world rock star, saving the rainforests or something. But it

wasn't me, or us doing anything in terms of saving the world, but the

people who were working for Friends of the Earth, Greenpeace, etc. They

are the job. But the media wasn't looking at them. So I was

highlighting it. I think you should do that. I think you have a

responsibility to do that. You are the Labour Party's music guru. Did

they ever consult you, Tony Blair or Gordon Brown, what music to...

Never. Bill Clinton, don't stop thinking about tomorrow, Fleetwood

Mac, was a wonderful campaign song. It fitted the moment. But we

followed it up five years later with Lighthouse family, and it quite have

the same resonance. But it is a powerful tool, not just in America

but here. Michael might get Wagner. If you had not used that all the

time, you might have held onto your seat. Stalin was particular about

his music. Churchill didn't care, and neither did Roosevelt.

Interesting. It may be an overused quote, but the as that Association

of politics is essential in the idea of fascism. Whereas the artistic

process is politicising the aspect it. I think all totalitarian regimes

did exactly that. What are you up to at the moment? We just finished an

album. It is no longer Razorlight. I am taking a break from that. I have

a new group and we are playing at the 100 club in London. Thank you

for being with us. That's your lot for tonight

folks but not for us. Because we've all been invited back

to Comrade Corbyn's bedsit, in Finsbury Park to pick up

some extra leaflets. But we leave you tonight

with the one that got away, It was once said of Alexander

the Great that "he wept, for there were no more

worlds to conquer". Nighty night, don't let his mastery

of the Charleston bite.