20/11/2015 Victoria Derbyshire


20/11/2015

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I'm Joanna Gosling, welcome to the programme.

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Stopping jihadists from crossing the continent - emergency talks are

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being held as France says it's time for other European countries to wake

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We hear from the Parisians who say they now need time to mourn.

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I don't know how to live without being afraid of going out.

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I'm feeling a little bit better, but it was really,

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He just wanted to play football but was trafficked into prostitution.

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A former Premier League player tells us how he was duped.

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Because I was young and I was, like, small, so I was just screaming.

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Yeah, I know what I'm here. I know what I came over here for. They

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brought me here to play football. Adele's 25 is expected to be

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the best selling album of the year - why you won't be able to listen to

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it on music streaming services. Welcome to the programme,

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we're on BBC 2 and the BBC News As you'll know by now,

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your contributions to this programme are really welcome throughout

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the morning. Texts will be charged

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at the standard network rate. And of course you can watch

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the programme online wherever you are via the BBC News app or

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our website bbc.co.uk/Victoria, and you can also subscribe to all

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our features on the news app by going to add topics

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and searching Victoria Derbyshire. A week on from the terror attacks

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in Paris, France's Interior Minister says Europe must wake up to

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terror threats. The Home Secretary, Theresa May, is

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joining her counterparts in Brussels today to discuss security measures -

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including moves to strengthen checks at external borders - after it

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emerged that some of those behind the attacks entered France

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undetected. Investigators are still looking for a key suspect,

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Salah Abdeslam, who escaped after The suspected ringleader, Abdelhamid

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Abaaoud, was killed in a raid It seems he was twice able to travel

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into and through the EU from Syria, despite being the subject

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of European Since the attacks on Paris

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the city has been in a state of Across the French capital,

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people have been taking part in vigils to commemorate those who

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lost their lives. Some Parisians spoke to us about how

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they feel people there are coping I don't know how to live without

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being afraid of going out But also I feel very happy that

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everyone seems to be so touched. I am feeling a little bit better

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but it was really, Now we can feel that the people

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are more calm and is now they are I am an au pair so I take care

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of children and trying to be positive and supportive around them

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when they understand to some degree Paris is known for a little bit

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of a stressful city and people are But now it feels like it is not the

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same, it is changing a little bit. People are sad and scared,

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they don't say it but we can feel You can feel the mood

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a little bit different. And they are angry, too,

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but Paris will always be Paris. It has been amazingly resilient

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in a way. It feels like heavy-hearted

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but still people are moving forward and stuff and being as positive I

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think as they can be. But it is understandable

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because the world wants to know what Let's bring you some breaking news

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from Mali. We are getting reports that Islamist gunmen have attacked a

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hotel in the capital, Bamako. Automatic weapons have fire has been

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heard inside the building. There are reports of hostages. The security

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forces have cordoned off the area. Mali has been plagued by an security

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since Islamist groups seized control of the North to years ago and

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attempted to take over the country. They were blocked by the

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intervention of French troops. We will keep you across the latest

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reports. We hear that potentially 170 people have been taken hostage

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in that hotel, around 30 members of staff and around 140 guests. Those

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are the official reports. It is reportedly a hotel popular with

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expats living and working in Mali. That is the latest as we have it, we

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will keep you updated as we get more details.

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Meanwhile, some Muslims living in the UK say they've experienced

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more physical or verbal abuse since the Paris attacks.

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Tell MAMA - a group which records anti-Muslim incidents says

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the number of reports they receive has DOUBLED in the last week.

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Humaira Mayet is a student in East London.

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She says there's been increased hostility in the last week - a view

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They are both here with me. Thank you for coming in. Tell us what you

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have experienced, Humaira? I found that, on the Chu, you get a lot of

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suspicious looks. -- on the Tube. I have not experienced physical

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assaults or outward verbal abuse, but of a train stops in the middle

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of a tunnel and the driver doesn't notify passengers immediately, you

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start getting aggressive looks thrown at you. Are you sure that

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is... And intentional thing that is being directed towards you? This

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didn't use to happen before, I felt very comfortable travelling on

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public transport before. Now I definitely feel that there is a

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suspicion. I know there has been an increase in the number of British

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Transport Police officers at stations. Whenever I walk past them,

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I suck in my breath and I am worried that I am going to get... Going to

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get questioned and searched. I shouldn't have too feel like that if

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I am in -- if I am innocent, I should be able to feel innocent in

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my own city. How does it make you feel when people look at you? Like

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an outsider, like I am being vilified for a crime that I didn't

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commit. What about you, Ayesha? Eyewitnesses airily echoed those

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views. I think, on a personal level, I haven't experienced any

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hostility, per se. I think there might be some apprehension, which is

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normal and natural. In fact, some family members who have been in

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central London, near Kingston, recently, they felt that people were

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trying to be nice to them. I think, as a community, we need to remember

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that we have human values that everyone celebrates. I think when

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traumas like this emerge, we get so embroiled in the finger-pointing but

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we forget to ask, why are we here? We need to keep that larger

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perspective in mind. The vital question is that Islamic extremism

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didn't rise in isolation. It has been, in large part, a product of

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our governments' policies and the way we have engaged in the Middle

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East. Moving forward, I think we need to rethink that engagement.

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Isis, which has been blamed for these attacks, it is largely

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documented that it has been a product of the Iraq war. When that

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argument is put forward, some people will say, that is making excuses for

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the actions of a group like Isis? I don't think it is making excuses, I

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think it is trying to delineate the situation. It is like giving two

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children or two toddlers guns. Isis, or extremists, do something.

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The day after the Paris attacks we heard that France was launching air

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strikes in Syria. That might be a popular response, but it might not

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be the most prudent. That is like giving two children guns. We are not

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blaming anyone, we're not trying to get broiled in these wars. What

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would you say the response should be to Isis? I think a biker issue is

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how we move forward, how we deal with this. I think a key issue is

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getting to the bottom of how these groups are actually funded. I think

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that is a vital concern. I don't see that much in the media at all. Is

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that not the sort of thing that governments are doing, and trying to

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work alongside communities to stop people being recruited? I don't

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think they are doing enough to cut the supply lines to terrorist

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organisations. In Britain, we make a lot of money out of the oil-rich

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Middle East, and we need to rethink our trading partners, maybe, and we

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need to get to the bottom of how these terrorist groups are funded. I

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sit in my personal capacity as the member of a minority group. We have

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been in the UK for a long time. Similar to Isis, which I think is

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interesting, Isis claims to have a caliphate and we also have a head of

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the community, but he has been spreading the message of love, peace

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and loyalty, he has been touring the world. He sits in England and gives

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a Friday sermon every Friday and he talks of these crucial notions of

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integrating into society peacefully. Does that need to be heard more

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widely? I think so. That can play a bigger part in helping us to be

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heard. Today, in a large mosque in Morden, there will be a special

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service this afternoon being held for Paris. It is called United We

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Stand, it is from 2pm to 3pm, just before Friday prayers. Members of

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all faith communities have been invited. From the 23rd of November

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we are planning to launch a campaign on London buses. It will play an

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advert for two weeks called United Against Extremism.

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And on Skype, Ameena Beake is from the Muslim Council of Britain

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What Is Your Perspective On What Is Happening After Paris? Good Morning.

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What has happened, and we wholly condemn all the violence in the

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world, and the thing that has happened in Paris is absolutely an

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act of pure evil, and has absolutely nothing to do with Islam, or with

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the 99.9% of Muslims who do live normal, peaceful Islamic lives. That

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is the first point we need to make. I think the hostile reactions that a

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fuel of the British public have made towards this offer lots of different

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reasons. I think that Isis are extremely clever. They are playing

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on our fear as, unfortunately, are certain sections of the media. What

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happens is you have a situation whereby the British public are wound

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up into a frenzy of fear, that will breed anger which will then breed

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hostility, when things like this happen. By doing this we almost

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playing into the hands of Isis and doing exactly what I want. Let's be

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very clear, Isis hate anybody who doesn't buy into their sick

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ideology. That is a fact. We have got to unite together as the British

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public, regardless of whatever religion background we are from, and

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work together against this. The main key to working together against this

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is by creating peace between ourselves and our communities,

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really pulling together in the time of crisis that we face. Humaira,

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what are your thoughts? You are sitting there feeling fearful,

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people are looking at you feeling fearful. What is the way to cut

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through? One thing that really irks me is the fact that people seem to

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think that because I am a Muslim I am somehow immune to being a victim

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of a terrorist attack. Isis Starr not discriminating when they are

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killing people in the West. I'm not immune to that bonds or bullets.

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They are killing eight -- killing indiscriminately, they want to kill

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anyone who does not believe that ideology, that is most Muslims. I am

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just as much at risk as anyone else is when it comes to a terrorist

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attack. Ameena? The sister is very right. We are all facing this

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negativity, and this almost threat. It is threatening to divide our

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society. What we need to look at is the logical side inside all of us,

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and that, you know, Muslims have been living in Britain and the West

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for a couple of hundred years now. We have not had any problems.

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Neighbours are living peacefully amongst each other. We will exchange

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gifts on Christmas and their TE Durcan is all the rest. We had to

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keep it that way and almost intensified this -- exchange gifts

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at Christmas and at Eid. The other lady was talking about the political

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side. The politic may have a part to play, but as a community we need to

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maybe put the politics on one side, on the grassroots level, and

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concentrate on the British values that we hold so dear, which is

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pulling together, supporting one another and trying to pull through

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this very difficult time. What is the best way to do that?

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I think communities really need to pull together socially, communities

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need to not be looking at each other with any kind of suspicion. It is

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very, very difficult to do, I think the media can help a huge amount in

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this, bringing people together, such as this programme today is doing.

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And making people understand may be that people who have not met Muslims

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in the past and do not have any connection with Muslims, to

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understand that Muslims are just normal people, we go about our

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normal business in the UK, you know, we have jobs, we have kids and all

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the rest of it. And we are active members of our society, just like

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other people are too. Really good to talk to you all this morning, thank

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you very much, and do let us know your thoughts, you know the usual

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ways of getting in touch. There are reports that gunmen have

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attacked the Radisson Blu hotel in Mali and are holding scores of

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hostages. Automatic weapons fire has been heard coming from the hotel in

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Bamako. It is understood security forces have set up a cordon and

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reports of 170 hostages inside that hotel. Mali has been plagued by

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insecurity since Islamist groups seized control of the North two

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years ago and attempt to take over the country. They were blocked by

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the intervention of French troops. We have received a statement from

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the hotel group which owns and operates the Radisson Blu in Bamako

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in Mali. It says, the group is aware of the hostagetaking that is ongoing

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at the property today, and according to its information, two people are

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blocked in 140 guests and 30 employees. There is no confirmation

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of any gunfire or any injuries or deaths so far, we will keep you

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updated. Theresa May has joined counterparts

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in Brussels to discuss toughening up European security and border

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controls following evidence that some of the terrorists entered

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France and detected or posing as Syrian refugees. Senior police

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chiefs say more budget cuts could affect the UK's ability to respond

:18:40.:18:41.

to an attack like Paris. A 28-year-old man is due to appear

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in court in Leicester today charged with murdering the teenager

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Kayleigh Haywood. Stephen Beadman has been charged

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with murder and one count of rape. The body was discovered on

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Wednesday. A group of MPs is calling for the criminal courts charge of up

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to ?1200, which is paid by defendants who are convicted, to be

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scrapped. Those who plead guilty at the start pay less. The MPs fear it

:19:12.:19:16.

encourages people to plead guilty regardless to avoid the risk of

:19:17.:19:17.

higher payments. In sport, England look set to

:19:18.:19:19.

appoint their first foreign head coach, as Eddie Jones steps closer

:19:20.:19:22.

to the top job in English rugby. The former South Africa and

:19:23.:19:25.

Australia coach, who led Japan at the recent World Cup, was in London

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yesterday putting the finishing Let's catch up with all the sport

:19:29.:19:30.

now and join Hugh, of Stuart Lancaster's successor

:19:31.:19:34.

as England rugby coach. Yes, the RFU have confirmed

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their first ever foreign coach, it's the Australian Eddie Jones

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who joins on a four-year deal RFU chief exec Ian Ritchie

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wanted international experience - he's got that,

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Jones was the losing coach when England won the World Cup

:19:51.:19:53.

back in 2003. Most recently, he was in charge

:19:54.:19:55.

of the Japan side which stunned South Africa

:19:56.:19:58.

at the World Cup. Jones himself will be speaking

:19:59.:20:00.

at a press conference later this afternoon, but in a statement

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he says he feels fortunate to take on possibly

:20:03.:20:05.

the world's most high-profile However, English rugby

:20:06.:20:07.

must now ask itself why Jake White, Michael Chieka,

:20:08.:20:13.

Warren Gatland, even Englishman Jim Mallinder were all so ready

:20:14.:20:16.

to rule themselves out of the job. Do England have the players

:20:17.:20:20.

to compete at the very elite level

:20:21.:20:21.

of the sport? Is there something wrong with

:20:22.:20:23.

the structure of English rugby? And in Eddie Jones,

:20:24.:20:26.

are they getting the right man, or just someone different after

:20:27.:20:28.

faith was lost in Stuart Lancaster? but Jones believes the future

:20:29.:20:31.

is bright for England. We'll talk about that

:20:32.:20:36.

in more detail just after ten, Thanks, see you later. Back to the

:20:37.:20:50.

breaking news that we have been bringing you of a hotel in Mali,

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where 170 people have been taken hostage, the Radisson Blu in Bamako,

:20:58.:21:03.

and the group that owns the Radisson Blu hotel has confirmed that a

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hostagetaking situation is ongoing there. You can see the image on your

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screen now, where the hotel is, 140 guests, 30 employees locked in by

:21:16.:21:20.

two people in that hostagetaking, according to the owners of the

:21:21.:21:26.

hotel. Reuters are actually reporting that ten gunmen are

:21:27.:21:31.

involved in this hostage situation. So clearly a fluid situation,

:21:32.:21:35.

reports just coming through. We will obviously check out those latest

:21:36.:21:39.

reports, but some discrepancy on the number of hostage-takers at the

:21:40.:21:42.

hotel, ten being reported by Reuters now. The hotel is telling us,

:21:43.:21:49.

though, that it cannot confirm that number. Also hearing via Reuters

:21:50.:21:52.

that several Chinese guests are among those trapped in the hotel,

:21:53.:21:58.

that is according to a Chinese news agency, Xinhua. A Chinese guest has

:21:59.:22:04.

told journalists he is among a number of Chinese guests trapped in

:22:05.:22:07.

the hotel. It is a hotel which is popular with expats working in

:22:08.:22:15.

Mali. It is an area that has had difficulties, so it is not an area

:22:16.:22:20.

popular with tourists, but this situation unfolding in that hotel,

:22:21.:22:27.

that Radisson Blu in Bamako in Mali, with 170 hostages reported to be

:22:28.:22:33.

locked into rooms by potentially up to ten hostage-takers, but we do not

:22:34.:22:39.

have confirmation as yet the specific numbers involved. We're not

:22:40.:22:43.

getting reports at this stage of gunshot or injuries, or any further

:22:44.:22:50.

casualties, so we will, of course, check out the latest and keep you

:22:51.:22:52.

updated. A former Premiership footballer

:22:53.:22:55.

has told this programme by a man who tried to force him

:22:56.:22:57.

into prostitution. Al Bangura,

:22:58.:23:00.

who's from Sierra Leone, was 14 when a French man

:23:01.:23:02.

offered to take him to the UK what happened when he arrived

:23:03.:23:05.

in Britain. This is basically like

:23:06.:23:10.

when I was young and my dad was at the head

:23:11.:23:13.

of a secret society. So basically

:23:14.:23:16.

when I get to the age of 14, that I need to join the secret

:23:17.:23:24.

society than my dad was in too. I said to my mum, I don't think

:23:25.:23:33.

this is something I want to get involved with, because basically,

:23:34.:23:36.

I don't live in the village, and all my life is living

:23:37.:23:39.

in the city. And you know what I'm doing,

:23:40.:23:44.

I want to play football. And I'm going to school so I don't

:23:45.:23:47.

want to get involved in that. I knew this French guy,

:23:48.:23:50.

and he promised to help me. But not knowing that he had

:23:51.:23:55.

another different intention, Well, to try to like...

:23:56.:23:59.

get me into this sex trade thing. So we travelled from Guinea

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to France, in France for like a day, and we

:24:10.:24:13.

came over him with the Eurostar. And obviously

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this is where it started. And we went to like a place,

:24:18.:24:20.

a building, I was there for like an hour,

:24:21.:24:23.

an hour and a half. So all of a sudden I saw two

:24:24.:24:27.

or three guys come around me, Yeah, because I was young and I was

:24:28.:24:33.

like small, I was just screaming. They probably thought

:24:34.:24:41.

I know what I am here for. Obviously, I did not know

:24:42.:24:46.

what I came over here for. Not knowing that he is

:24:47.:24:49.

probably here to play football. So I was screaming, shouting,

:24:50.:24:52.

crying, just like proper screaming. I was just cold, I was shaking,

:24:53.:24:56.

and I was crying. And I did not even know what to do.

:24:57.:25:08.

I was all over the place. that you had been brought over

:25:09.:25:12.

here to be a male prostitute? No. I do not think I would

:25:13.:25:16.

have ever tried to do that if I knew that is what I was going

:25:17.:25:20.

to come over here for. It was really sad for me.

:25:21.:25:23.

It is quite emotional saying it now. Me saying that now,

:25:24.:25:33.

obviously I am happy that I get over here,

:25:34.:25:38.

but it is just too sad for me. and I didn't really know

:25:39.:25:41.

how to speak English. I was cold, I was scared,

:25:42.:25:45.

and I was crying. I could not even know

:25:46.:25:48.

where to start. I am thinking, "I think this is

:25:49.:25:51.

the end of my life." But I managed to see

:25:52.:25:55.

loads of black people and that. So I met this guy,

:25:56.:25:58.

I think he was a Nigerian guy. "Listen, this is my situation,

:25:59.:26:01.

I want you to help me". And he said, "I cannot really

:26:02.:26:07.

help you, the only thing I can do is put you on a bus

:26:08.:26:12.

and go and apply for asylum." And he bought me a bus pass

:26:13.:26:15.

and put me on the bus and I went to the Home Office,

:26:16.:26:21.

and I explained my story. I explained what happened to me

:26:22.:26:24.

and everything. But they did not believe what I am

:26:25.:26:26.

saying because I haven't got any ID, I haven't got anything

:26:27.:26:30.

to prove to them that this is my situation

:26:31.:26:32.

that I have been through. But they gave me some advice,

:26:33.:26:34.

saying that the only way we can look at your case, or look after you,

:26:35.:26:41.

is for you to apply for asylum. So I applied for asylum,

:26:42.:26:45.

they put me into an accommodation while I was waiting

:26:46.:26:49.

for my asylum to be solved. And all during this time all you

:26:50.:26:52.

wanted to do was play football, all I wanted to do in my life

:26:53.:26:55.

was just to play football. And for me personally,

:26:56.:27:02.

football is my dream. That is what I always wanted to do,

:27:03.:27:04.

to play football. But because I was 16 at that time

:27:05.:27:12.

they could not even sent me back home or do anything to me so they

:27:13.:27:16.

ended up giving me a two-year stay. I kind of forgot about what I had

:27:17.:27:20.

been through in my life, because... It was sad for me,

:27:21.:27:37.

but it ended up coming to like a good thing

:27:38.:27:40.

in my life. I started meeting people, started

:27:41.:27:42.

playing my football that I like. Started getting in touch

:27:43.:27:45.

with people and all them things. And I got the opportunity

:27:46.:27:47.

to join Watford when I was 16. And then things started

:27:48.:27:50.

building up for me. How big do you think

:27:51.:27:52.

this problem is? Do you think it is happening

:27:53.:27:54.

to a lot of children, This, it is happening,

:27:55.:27:57.

and think there are loads of vulnerable kids in Africa who want

:27:58.:28:01.

to achieve what I have in my life. And their parents

:28:02.:28:04.

really want to achieve what someone like me wanted

:28:05.:28:06.

to achieve in my life. So I think there is loads

:28:07.:28:08.

of honourable place that they will probably tell them, "Listen,

:28:09.:28:11.

I want to help you play football." Some of them would not even

:28:12.:28:14.

talk to their parents. Some of them, their parents

:28:15.:28:21.

would use their last money to make sure they come over here

:28:22.:28:25.

to play football and they end up

:28:26.:28:27.

doing something else. So for me it is existing, and I just

:28:28.:28:30.

think it is more important for me to have been through all them things

:28:31.:28:34.

in my life and for me to say it, so that people out there know I have

:28:35.:28:38.

been through that, I have survived. But what about the young kids

:28:39.:28:41.

that are coming up? Are they going to survive, are they

:28:42.:28:43.

going to be able to cope with that? So we really need to find a way

:28:44.:28:47.

how to stop all of that. Let's talk now to Ed Hawkins,

:28:48.:28:50.

a journalist who has spent the past two years

:28:51.:28:53.

investigating the trafficking trade How rare is it for him to make it to

:28:54.:29:13.

the Premier League? Extremely rare, probably one and several thousand to

:29:14.:29:16.

have made it to a club and be given a contract. The numbers on this sort

:29:17.:29:21.

of trade, the slave trade, if you like, is up to several thousand a

:29:22.:29:28.

year. Since 2009, it has been 7000 two France alone, and very few of

:29:29.:29:35.

those people make it. How many of them even get a trial? Very few

:29:36.:29:42.

again, because the scam works where unscrupulous agents or Scouts will

:29:43.:29:48.

say to a player, give me ?3000, ?4000, I will get you a trial at

:29:49.:29:55.

PSG, Man City, wherever, and they were actually taken two France or

:29:56.:29:58.

England, and the trial does not exist. The agent has gone missing,

:29:59.:30:04.

they are siphoned off into drugs, prostitution, other sorts of crime.

:30:05.:30:09.

How much is known about this problem and the scale of it? It is still saw

:30:10.:30:16.

that in its infancy, because no-one is really getting a handle on it. --

:30:17.:30:21.

sort of. Fifa have paid lip service to it, there is a charity which

:30:22.:30:27.

exists to help out these young players and try to stamp out the

:30:28.:30:32.

issue that I've found in my investigation, a charity that does

:30:33.:30:37.

not appear to do what they say they do, no-one really knows what they

:30:38.:30:43.

do. So no-one is really tackling it, and no-one really knows the sort

:30:44.:30:50.

of anatomy of it until now. And that is what I sort of set out to do, to

:30:51.:30:54.

understand how they are moving these players and why they are moving

:30:55.:30:57.

these players, and it is multifaceted, really.

:30:58.:31:03.

So they are young footballers, originally? Talk us through it. They

:31:04.:31:09.

are desperate to play in Europe, they want to be the next Messi or

:31:10.:31:15.

whatever. An agent or scout will see an opportunity to make money out of

:31:16.:31:19.

them, either because he believes this kid is good enough to play

:31:20.:31:23.

football, or that they can get hold of some family money offer him for

:31:24.:31:28.

this trial, which may or may not exist. The kids may go for a trial

:31:29.:31:33.

and, most likely, he will not be good enough, then the agent washes

:31:34.:31:37.

his hands off him and he is left abandoned in Europe with nowhere to

:31:38.:31:44.

go. What good Fifa do? There is a Fifa rule called Article 19 which

:31:45.:31:49.

prevents the international transfer of miners, but within football the

:31:50.:31:54.

law was not really adhered to. You probably member was alone at but a

:31:55.:32:00.

transfer ban for signing miners when they should not have done. It is not

:32:01.:32:04.

really worth the paper it is written on. This culture permeates from top

:32:05.:32:16.

to bottom in the game. It means that scouts and agents are able to go

:32:17.:32:20.

around exploiting people. These kids that come over, they don't make the

:32:21.:32:24.

grade, maybe they don't even get a triad sometimes, what happens to

:32:25.:32:31.

them? -- don't get a tryout. Often they end up in drugs or crime. We

:32:32.:32:35.

heard that story about prostitution. I met a boy in an east London sink

:32:36.:32:41.

estate called JJ who was traffic from Guinea at the age of 17, he

:32:42.:32:46.

thought he was coming for football, there was no trial. He ended up in a

:32:47.:32:53.

home in North London being pimped out two other men. He escaped, he

:32:54.:32:58.

went to the Home Office and has been given asylum in the UK because his

:32:59.:33:01.

family threatened to kill him because of the abuse he suffered. Is

:33:02.:33:06.

there any sign that the authorities are getting a grip on this? Football

:33:07.:33:11.

authorities, no. The National Crime Agency reasonably up to speed, they

:33:12.:33:16.

are talking about 600 kids a year coming into the UK. It is beginning

:33:17.:33:20.

to build. The issue has been around for some years but hopefully it will

:33:21.:33:25.

be taken about more seriously. Ebury much, Ed Hawkins.

:33:26.:33:31.

Let's go back to the regular news coming out of Mali, Islamist gunman

:33:32.:33:35.

have attacked a hotel and are taking people hostage. It is reported that

:33:36.:33:41.

there are two 170 hostages in the hotel, potentially up to ten gunman.

:33:42.:33:46.

It is unfolding in the Radisson Blue hotel in the capital, Bamako. We are

:33:47.:33:53.

hearing that there are at least two macro private security guards who

:33:54.:33:58.

have been injured. The hotel group which owns and operates the hotel in

:33:59.:34:09.

Mali has issued a statement. It adds that two macro people have locked in

:34:10.:34:16.

140 guests and 30 employees. There is no confirmation of any gunfire,

:34:17.:34:20.

injuries or deaths so far. That has been slightly superseded, we are

:34:21.:34:24.

getting reports of gunfire but we still have no reports of injuries.

:34:25.:34:30.

The US Embassy in Mali has issued a statement to American citizens in

:34:31.:34:34.

the capital. It says the embassy is aware of an ongoing active shooter

:34:35.:34:39.

operation at the Radisson hotel. US Embassy staff have been asked to

:34:40.:34:43.

shelter in place. All US citizen should shelter in place. Try that US

:34:44.:34:49.

citizens are encouraged to contact their families. Monitor local media

:34:50.:34:54.

for updates. US citizens should adhere to the instructions of local

:34:55.:34:59.

authorities and monitor local media. Former BBC Africa producer Kate

:35:00.:35:02.

Forbes is with me. You have stayed at this hotel in the past? Yes, it

:35:03.:35:06.

is a decompression place where we all used to stay when we were

:35:07.:35:10.

covering the war in the north of Mali. Mali has a big problem with an

:35:11.:35:17.

Islamic... Islamic she had is movement mainly in the north. It has

:35:18.:35:23.

been contained their most of the time, but we have had incidents in

:35:24.:35:28.

Bamako before. -- and Islamic art macro movement. This is used by

:35:29.:35:35.

NGOs, the World Bank the IMF. High-level NGOs, diplomats, it is in

:35:36.:35:39.

the centre of town is quite expensive. It has security. When you

:35:40.:35:48.

go in, you are met by security. But I am not sure how this happened. The

:35:49.:35:56.

fact that high profile westerners would stay there would a target?

:35:57.:36:02.

Yes. When we were considering options of somewhere to decompress

:36:03.:36:04.

after having gone up and down covering the war in the north, we

:36:05.:36:08.

were advised to think carefully about staying there because although

:36:09.:36:14.

it was the best hotel, with everything we needed in it, it is

:36:15.:36:21.

also extremely high profile. The French community there is very

:36:22.:36:25.

strong, it is used for business meetings, for NGOs, politicians etc.

:36:26.:36:31.

As you are saying, it is an area with a problem. Does that therefore

:36:32.:36:36.

mean tourist stay away? The tourist industry took a real hate after the

:36:37.:36:43.

war. French tourists small van anglophone tourists, I would say,

:36:44.:36:48.

still go. Mali is an amazing country, it is definitely want to

:36:49.:36:52.

look at, but jihadis are targeting tourist points because they know

:36:53.:36:56.

that that will make people stay away. There have been previous

:36:57.:37:01.

incidents, I think there was one in August? Quite if you have been

:37:02.:37:07.

foiled, there have been small incidents. And in the North, it

:37:08.:37:15.

became quite regular, the French Army working with the Mali Army have

:37:16.:37:19.

done a lot of work to secure the North, but it has not stopped

:37:20.:37:23.

small-scale terror attacks. This is the biggest we have seen. Tell us

:37:24.:37:30.

more about the strength of that Islamic jihadis to movement and the

:37:31.:37:36.

resources they have? When we went up into Timbuktu when it was freed by

:37:37.:37:39.

the French, you could say, but also by the Malian army, there was a lot

:37:40.:37:46.

of evidence of militant Islamist control of the town. They had burned

:37:47.:37:51.

lots of books, they had tried to impose their own codes of dress on

:37:52.:37:57.

female residents. Lots and lots of the rules. They had really taken

:37:58.:38:01.

hold. The French went in, they got them out, but as with most jihadi

:38:02.:38:10.

movement is, -- movements, you cannot say you have eradicated that

:38:11.:38:14.

section of society. What about the rest of society and how this is

:38:15.:38:21.

viewed? For the ordinary person in Mali, what the president said today

:38:22.:38:28.

reflects their view, this is not Islam, this is not our religion,

:38:29.:38:32.

this is not our society, this is not how we want our society to be. They

:38:33.:38:39.

condemn it in strongest terms. I think we will get the latest from

:38:40.:38:43.

our correspondent in a few moments. Let me bring you right up to date

:38:44.:38:47.

with the very latest development that we have. At least two macro

:38:48.:38:53.

private security guards, we hear, have been injured in the attack on

:38:54.:38:59.

that riders and hotel -- Radisson Blu hotel in the Mali capital,

:39:00.:39:06.

Bamako. It has been reported on Reuters. Gunman arrived at that

:39:07.:39:11.

hotel at around 7am on board a vehicle which forced its way through

:39:12.:39:16.

a security barrier at the hotel. The reports are that 170 people are

:39:17.:39:22.

being held hostage in the hotel, 130 guests is, sorry, 140 guests, and 30

:39:23.:39:27.

members of staff, the initial report. That detail just threw about

:39:28.:39:34.

the way they got into the hotel, forcing their way through a security

:39:35.:39:38.

barrier in a vehicle, we were just hearing about the levels of security

:39:39.:39:43.

at that hotel, it has been seen as a potential target. Ben Geoghegan

:39:44.:39:49.

joins me. It is an unclear pig show. One or two macro images appearing

:39:50.:40:00.

online -- it is an unclear picture. You can't really get an impression

:40:01.:40:05.

of what is going on. Difficult to put it together at the moment.

:40:06.:40:09.

Conflicting reports about how many hostage-takers there may have been,

:40:10.:40:17.

whether it is two, one report from Reuters say that around ten binmen

:40:18.:40:19.

are believed to be inside the hotel. I suppose the best guide is from the

:40:20.:40:33.

hotel 's owners. -- about ten gunmen. As far as their information

:40:34.:40:38.

is can burned, they say that two people have locked in 130 guests, 30

:40:39.:40:50.

employees. Two private security guards may have been injured. There

:40:51.:40:53.

is an indication that some guests were Chinese, but the hotel is in

:40:54.:40:58.

the middle of an international area of Bamako, full of diplomats and

:40:59.:41:04.

business people. We can expect a guest list to be pretty varied.

:41:05.:41:11.

There is a member of staff who has given an account over the phone to

:41:12.:41:16.

another news agency as saying that the attackers used grenades in the

:41:17.:41:20.

assault. No information from that person on casualties or the number

:41:21.:41:26.

of assailants involved. Conflicting reports, difficult at the moment to

:41:27.:41:29.

get a clear picture of what is going on. The US embassy has asked

:41:30.:41:36.

citizens to shelter in place amid reports of what they describe as an

:41:37.:41:41.

ongoing active shooter operation. We have had a line from the Foreign

:41:42.:41:47.

Office saying, we are in contact with local authorities and urgently

:41:48.:41:50.

seeking further information following reports of an incident at

:41:51.:41:53.

the Radisson Blu hotel in Bamako in Mali. The latest we are getting is

:41:54.:42:01.

that the company is confirming, as you say, that 170 people are being

:42:02.:42:06.

held hostage in what they describe as a brazen assault involving

:42:07.:42:15.

grenades. I think the local security authorities are still grappling with

:42:16.:42:21.

this. There was one Lieutenant Colonel, an adviser of the Defence

:42:22.:42:25.

Ministry, he said a few minutes ago it is really not clear what has

:42:26.:42:29.

happened. I think they are trying to get a handle on this. The US and

:42:30.:42:33.

French embassies are asking citizens to take shelter where they are in

:42:34.:42:37.

Bamako, and the commander of the Malian army says ten binmen stormed

:42:38.:42:44.

the hotel, shouting a la black bar, or God is great, in Arabic. The area

:42:45.:42:52.

has had in a street -- a history of issues? There was the military coup

:42:53.:42:59.

in 2012, the French centre and forces. The problem has been mainly

:43:00.:43:03.

confined to the north of the country, that has not prevented some

:43:04.:43:09.

of these forces from going into southern areas and attacking, that

:43:10.:43:12.

is what seems to be happening this morning. Thank you. We will keep you

:43:13.:43:17.

updated but, for now, let's join carol with the weather.

:43:18.:43:24.

We expect some snow over the next couple of days. We will not all see

:43:25.:43:36.

it. It will turn colder. We have a weather front in the south of

:43:37.:43:38.

England which will continue to move away, taking the rain with it. You

:43:39.:43:41.

can see the change in the direction of the isobars, they will be coming

:43:42.:43:44.

down from the north, from the Arctic, a much colder direction. You

:43:45.:43:48.

will notice a change in temperature. We will lose the rain from the south

:43:49.:43:51.

through the morning. Dry weather, sunshine and showers find it. But

:43:52.:43:57.

behind this occlusion, it is already colder and the show we currently

:43:58.:44:00.

have continued to turn more wintry through the course of the day,

:44:01.:44:04.

especially over higher ground. We have that initially across Shetland,

:44:05.:44:09.

then it'll come across the north of mainland Scotland. We are looking at

:44:10.:44:13.

lots of dry weather. Showers across northern England. Across the

:44:14.:44:19.

Midlands and into East Anglia and Kent, all the way towards the Isle

:44:20.:44:22.

of Wight, we are looking at lots of dry weather with just the odd

:44:23.:44:28.

shower. Dry weather to the south, blue skies, might show, some skies

:44:29.:44:33.

across western parts Wales, it will be more cloudy at times. Eastern

:44:34.:44:38.

Wales seeing the sunshine. Into Northern Ireland, a mixture of

:44:39.:44:42.

bright spells, sunshine and showers, but increasingly in the cold air we

:44:43.:44:47.

will see that falling as snow. Through the evening and overnight,

:44:48.:44:51.

the wind picks up in the west across the Irish Sea and adjacent areas and

:44:52.:44:55.

down the North Sea coastline. Gusting to gale force, possibly

:44:56.:45:00.

more. Inland, gusting to around 50 mph. The snow is the other half of

:45:01.:45:05.

the story. Snow across north-east Scotland and settling, even at low

:45:06.:45:09.

levels. We will see some across the Southern uplands, Pennines and the

:45:10.:45:13.

Vale of York, settling even at lower levels for a time. This area is a

:45:14.:45:20.

mixture of rain, sleet and snow. Wintry showers. You might wake

:45:21.:45:23.

tomorrow with a dusting but we do not expected last.

:45:24.:45:27.

We are looking at snow showers across Snowdonia, the Brecon Beacons

:45:28.:45:31.

and the tops of the murders. It is not really surprising that it will

:45:32.:45:37.

be a cold night. -- the tops of the moors. Watch out for slippery

:45:38.:45:43.

surfaces bursting. The wintry mix continues to slip

:45:44.:45:46.

southwards tomorrow morning, getting towards the far south-eastern

:45:47.:45:52.

corner. Rain, sleet and snow. There will be wintry flurries across

:45:53.:45:54.

eastern England at times but it will clear for many. Gusty winds, it will

:45:55.:46:00.

feel raw first thing, but the winds easing through the day. Wintry

:46:01.:46:06.

showers across Wales and be moors. Temperatures tomorrow range from

:46:07.:46:09.

three to nine, lower than it has been. When you add on the effects of

:46:10.:46:13.

the wind, how it will feel if you are stepping out, it will be closer

:46:14.:46:18.

to freezing or below. Sunday see something quieter with lighter winds

:46:19.:46:19.

and snow flurries in the East. Hello, it's ten o'clock,

:46:20.:46:22.

I'm Joanna Gosling. Welcome to the programme

:46:23.:46:24.

if you've just joined us. Gunmen in Mali have attacked

:46:25.:46:26.

an international hotel There are reports

:46:27.:46:30.

hostages have been taken. We are looking at another

:46:31.:46:44.

major Islamist terror attack this morning - this time in

:46:45.:46:47.

the west African country of Mali. Two gunmen with automatic weapons

:46:48.:46:50.

are understood to be holed up in the Radisson Blu hotel,

:46:51.:46:54.

holding scores of hostages, There are reports that some have

:46:55.:47:11.

been killed. The hotel is used by UN staff, Air France staff, and members

:47:12.:47:20.

of the Chinese business community. Mali is a former French colony with

:47:21.:47:24.

a significant Islamist insurgency, and there have been French military

:47:25.:47:28.

boots on the ground to try to control it. Ben Geoghegan is here,

:47:29.:47:32.

what is the latest? Well, we're still trying to piece things

:47:33.:47:36.

together, but what we have heard is that there are about 170 hostages at

:47:37.:47:42.

this hotel, 140 guests, 30 employees. It is an ongoing

:47:43.:47:47.

situation, we believe. We have had comments from the US Embassy in

:47:48.:47:50.

Mali, they are telling their citizens to shelter where they are,

:47:51.:47:55.

amid reports of what they describe as an ongoing active shooter

:47:56.:47:59.

operation. Conflicting reports about how many gunmen may be involved, one

:48:00.:48:06.

report saying that there were ten gunmen believed to be inside the

:48:07.:48:11.

hotel in the capital, but the report saying that it just involves two

:48:12.:48:18.

gunmen, and the hotel's owning group, they say they are aware of

:48:19.:48:23.

the hostagetaking, it is ongoing at the property. As far as their

:48:24.:48:27.

information is concerned, they say there are two people who have locked

:48:28.:48:34.

in 140 guests and 30 employees. A few photographs of the scene have

:48:35.:48:37.

begun to emerge online now, you can see a sort of chaos as it looks like

:48:38.:48:44.

security forces have closed off the area, parked cars in the middle of

:48:45.:48:48.

the street, people waving their arms and so on. We are still waiting for

:48:49.:48:52.

the detail both on what is happening outside the hotel and what is going

:48:53.:48:56.

on inside as well. What are we hearing about gunshots being fired

:48:57.:49:00.

on a potential casualties? Again, conflicting reports of gunfire, and

:49:01.:49:07.

one or two suggestions that there may have been grenades. As we say,

:49:08.:49:13.

we're just trying to piece together the information, bits of information

:49:14.:49:17.

coming through. The hotel is in the west of the capital, in an area

:49:18.:49:21.

weather is a lot of big international community, diplomats,

:49:22.:49:26.

governments. -- where there is. A couple of accounts have come from

:49:27.:49:30.

Chinese tourists, there is likely to be quite a large Chinese contingent

:49:31.:49:35.

inside the hotel, but it is an international area, likely to be

:49:36.:49:38.

tourists from all sorts of countries at the moment. What do we know about

:49:39.:49:42.

levels of security at that hotel? Won't imagine they are high, but we

:49:43.:49:46.

have not got the detail on that. There was a coup in 2012, the French

:49:47.:49:52.

sending troops to try to deal with that, they pushed out Islamic

:49:53.:49:56.

extremists, but there have been problems ever since with attacks,

:49:57.:50:01.

one as recently as March, in which masked gunmen shot at a restaurant

:50:02.:50:06.

and five people were killed, a restaurant that was popular with

:50:07.:50:09.

foreigners. So there has been this ongoing insurgency, so you would

:50:10.:50:14.

imagine that security in places like this hotel would be pretty intense.

:50:15.:50:20.

We are just hearing a security source being quoted on the Reuters

:50:21.:50:23.

news agency as saying that the gunmen have read some hostages,

:50:24.:50:27.

including those able to recite verses of the Koran. Well, yes,

:50:28.:50:34.

we're just getting this information all the time from the various

:50:35.:50:38.

different news agencies. If that is happening, then obviously that still

:50:39.:50:44.

means that, to some extent, it suggests that the hostage-takers are

:50:45.:50:48.

still in control of that situation. By all accounts, a very dangerous

:50:49.:50:54.

one. George Joffe is an expert on Mali, professor of politics at

:50:55.:50:58.

Cambridge University, he joins us via Skype. We are just getting these

:50:59.:51:03.

initial reports, tell us your thoughts based on the history of

:51:04.:51:08.

Mali. Well, I think, first of all, we have to see this in connection

:51:09.:51:16.

with the events in Paris. This really is a statement about the

:51:17.:51:19.

French failures to subdue the Islamist groups in Mali that were

:51:20.:51:26.

active in 2013, in January 2013, trying to take the capital, Bamako.

:51:27.:51:31.

So in a way, it is a statement about what happened in Paris, and a

:51:32.:51:34.

statement about the continued and rest in northern Mali, and the lack

:51:35.:51:41.

of success of French and Mali and forces to suppress the Islamist

:51:42.:51:46.

groups there. So the fact that this is a former French colony, you are

:51:47.:51:53.

seeing that as being highly significant Ulster it is not that it

:51:54.:51:56.

is a former French colony so much, it is the fact that the French army

:51:57.:52:02.

intervened in January 2013 to protect the capital from being taken

:52:03.:52:07.

over. At the same time, a dissident elements of the groups in Mali also

:52:08.:52:12.

attacked Algeria, and a major gas facility there. So in a way, the

:52:13.:52:17.

point really is that the groups concerned who are affiliated to

:52:18.:52:21.

Al-Qaeda wants to demonstrate that they are still active, acting in

:52:22.:52:26.

sympathy with their compatriots and colleagues in France, and of course

:52:27.:52:30.

with the Islamic State in the Middle East. That is a very interesting

:52:31.:52:35.

collision of interests, because normally Al-Qaeda and Islamic State

:52:36.:52:38.

are diametrically opposed to each other. What we are seeing here is

:52:39.:52:44.

the beginning of a widespread demonstration, extremists of the

:52:45.:52:47.

four actions against Europe and actions against France. -- extremist

:52:48.:52:53.

sympathy for. So this is most likely a group affiliated to Al-Qaeda, not

:52:54.:53:00.

IS? There is dispute about that, because groups in northern Mali are

:53:01.:53:04.

supposed to be considering whether they will affiliated with Islamic

:53:05.:53:09.

State rather than Al-Qaeda. There are three groups involved. One

:53:10.:53:15.

originates from Algeria, they came to Mali in 2003, another is a split

:53:16.:53:22.

off from that original group, and it involves non-Algerian extremists.

:53:23.:53:27.

The third group that has been active alongside the other two. -- the

:53:28.:53:35.

third group is a Tuareg group. They took over Timbuktu in 2012, and they

:53:36.:53:42.

have been there ever since. The French did push them back in 2013,

:53:43.:53:46.

but they were not able to eliminate them completely, and they have now

:53:47.:53:52.

grown again. In a sense, they are demonstrating that they still exist,

:53:53.:53:54.

they are powerful, and they are looking for new affiliation. So the

:53:55.:53:59.

link with Paris is therefore quite significant. So you think this would

:54:00.:54:04.

have been deliberately timed, then, to come after Paris? I do not know

:54:05.:54:08.

if it was deliberately timed, I doubt if there was coordination

:54:09.:54:11.

between the groups concerned, their means of communication are not that

:54:12.:54:16.

good, but I think it is an attack in sympathy. There have been other

:54:17.:54:19.

attacks on Bamako before, you heard about the attack on the restaurant

:54:20.:54:23.

in March, but there were attacks last and the year before, and the

:54:24.:54:27.

attacks take place there because it is a main centre for the aid

:54:28.:54:32.

agencies and the foreign powers engaged in Mali. As you heard, the

:54:33.:54:35.

Chinese are particularly active there, so it is a good place to make

:54:36.:54:39.

a demonstration that will be noticed by the wider world. Bearing that in

:54:40.:54:44.

mind, then, that hotel would have been seen as a potential targets -

:54:45.:54:50.

what sort of security should there have been in place at that hotel? We

:54:51.:54:54.

hear that the gunmen got into the hotel by breaking through security

:54:55.:55:01.

in a vehicle. Well, I'm afraid to say that the Malian army, which is

:55:02.:55:05.

responsible for security there, is notorious for the fact that it is

:55:06.:55:09.

ill disciplined and ill trained. It received a lot of American help in

:55:10.:55:14.

years past, but a lot of that was taken in corrupt collections by

:55:15.:55:17.

members of the government. The result has been considerable

:55:18.:55:20.

discontent inside the army, and there have been at least two army

:55:21.:55:25.

mutinies in recent years against the government because of the

:55:26.:55:29.

dissatisfaction of soldiers with their conditions of service. They

:55:30.:55:33.

have also been involved, alongside French, and trying to suppress the

:55:34.:55:37.

extremists in the north of the country, but again not very

:55:38.:55:40.

successfully, and there is a lot of tension between North and South in

:55:41.:55:44.

Mali, between different ethnic groups, and I think that has

:55:45.:55:47.

probably played into the fact that the groups can penetrate quite

:55:48.:55:52.

easily into the capital. George Joffe, for the moment, thank you.

:55:53.:55:56.

Let's bring Ben Geoghegan back in, I know you across the latest

:55:57.:56:00.

developments. Just reading the latest reports to appear on the

:56:01.:56:04.

wires here about several wounded people evacuating from the hotel.

:56:05.:56:11.

Now, we cannot confirm this, it is just another little bit of

:56:12.:56:14.

information that one has to see in the context of everything else that

:56:15.:56:18.

is coming in. I'm just going to read it as I see it for the first time

:56:19.:56:21.

myself, the morning attack at the hotel has turned into a hostage

:56:22.:56:25.

situation involving terrorists, and exchange of fire is still going on,

:56:26.:56:32.

according to this report. At nine o'clock the situation had not been

:56:33.:56:36.

brought under control, but a large number of security forces have been

:56:37.:56:42.

deployed to the area, and some people have been interviewed at the

:56:43.:56:45.

scene, they have talked about several people wounded and evacuated

:56:46.:56:50.

by ambulance. So that is the latest we have heard on what is clearly an

:56:51.:56:57.

unclear situation. But the headline is, and we have had several reports

:56:58.:57:02.

to suggest this, 140 guests, 30 members of staff taken hostage at

:57:03.:57:09.

this hotel. Also, another report was that the hostage-takers were

:57:10.:57:12.

releasing some people if they were able to recite verses from the

:57:13.:57:16.

Koran. Again, all unconfirmed, and it is going to be a while before we

:57:17.:57:22.

get clarity. And no breakdown of where those guests might have come

:57:23.:57:26.

from at this moment, beyond some reports indicating some Chinese. As

:57:27.:57:30.

we have been saying, given the area where the hoteliers, you would

:57:31.:57:34.

expect to have an international guest list, but we have heard from

:57:35.:57:39.

several Chinese guests who have reported being trapped in that hotel

:57:40.:57:44.

in the capital. But it is right in the middle of the sort of

:57:45.:57:49.

international, political, diplomatic area, you would expect tourists and

:57:50.:57:52.

business people from all over the world. Is it much of an area for

:57:53.:57:57.

tourism, bearing in mind the problems Mali has had? Well, I guess

:57:58.:58:02.

the tourist trade has been affected by the problems of a couple of years

:58:03.:58:09.

ago, because there was that insurgency, and then the French

:58:10.:58:12.

troops were sent in, Bamako was a no-go area for tourists a couple of

:58:13.:58:17.

years ago, and it may be that things have improved, but of course the

:58:18.:58:19.

Chinese are interested in doing deals in Africa, it is an area where

:58:20.:58:26.

they want to help develop infrastructure in many different

:58:27.:58:28.

countries there, so no surprise to hear that they are in the hotel.

:58:29.:58:34.

Ben, thank you for bringing us right up to date. Let's go now to Paris,

:58:35.:58:38.

Ben Brown is there, and there has been an update from the security

:58:39.:58:42.

severs is investigating last week's rates, another body has been found

:58:43.:58:47.

in the apartment which was raided. Tell us more. Yes, this is the big

:58:48.:58:51.

police raid that there was on Wednesday morning, we were up there

:58:52.:58:56.

one that was going on, Wednesday morning, Joanna, a seven-hour police

:58:57.:59:02.

operation, police fired ?5,000 into that flat in Saint-Denis in the

:59:03.:59:09.

north of Paris. -- 5000 rounds. We knew that one female had blown

:59:10.:59:14.

herself up and another man was dead, and now we are hearing from the

:59:15.:59:18.

Paris prosecutor that a third body, three dead terrorists in that flat.

:59:19.:59:24.

They are also saying, and we knew last night, that one of them was

:59:25.:59:29.

Abdelhamid Abaaoud, who was one of the ringleaders, if you like, the

:59:30.:59:34.

co-ordinate of last Friday's Paris attacks, and the man who the French

:59:35.:59:38.

authorities were alarmed had managed to slip from Syria into friends

:59:39.:59:43.

without anyone noticing. -- into France. We believe that the woman

:59:44.:59:52.

who blew herself up, a passport in her name has just been revealed, it

:59:53.:59:57.

was found in a handbag in the flat, so that seems to be the woman who

:59:58.:00:01.

blew herself up quite early on in that police operation as police were

:00:02.:00:04.

trying to get into the flat. And then a third body, who is that? That

:00:05.:00:10.

is a key question for the police investigators here. If it is

:00:11.:00:13.

26-year-old Saller Abdur slam, the man that police have been hunting

:00:14.:00:17.

after these tariff attacks, that would be a breakthrough. -- Saller

:00:18.:00:23.

Abdur slam. That seems unlikely, because he was seen leaving France

:00:24.:00:25.

the day after the attacks, and at that stage the police did not know

:00:26.:00:29.

they were after him, so he was checked at the border with Belgium

:00:30.:00:33.

and allowed to go on his way. It is conceivable he came back to Paris

:00:34.:00:37.

and was in that flat on Wednesday that the police raided in

:00:38.:00:39.

Saint-Denis, but we will have to wait and see who that third body is,

:00:40.:00:41.

they have not yet told us. Based on how long it took to

:00:42.:00:51.

identify the bodies previously, when would you expect an identification?

:00:52.:00:55.

It could be some time, it took a day or two macro to identify Abdelhamid

:00:56.:01:00.

Abaaoud, and they did that by fingerprints from what was left of

:01:01.:01:05.

his body. According to the Paris prosecutor his body was riddled with

:01:06.:01:09.

bullets and shrapnel. It might take them some time, assuming they have

:01:10.:01:12.

the original fingerprints or some sort of DNA sample, that is why it

:01:13.:01:16.

is difficult to carry out sort of DNA sample, that is why it

:01:17.:01:17.

is difficult to carry out this sort of identification. We are outside

:01:18.:01:23.

the Bataclan cafe, where a week ago today 89 people lost their lives.

:01:24.:01:27.

This was the scene of the deadliest attack last Friday. People have been

:01:28.:01:31.

laying flowers here in the days since then. There will be a vigil

:01:32.:01:38.

tonight in memory of the victims, at the Bataclan, and also at the scenes

:01:39.:01:42.

of all the other attacks last Friday night which, in total, left 129

:01:43.:01:48.

people dead from 17 different nations. Thank you, Ben.

:01:49.:01:55.

Some breaking news. The Metropolitan Police Service you done and reserved

:01:56.:01:58.

apology to a group of women with whom its officers had relationships

:01:59.:01:59.

well they were undercover. Our home affairs correspondent

:02:00.:02:02.

Danny Shaw is in Central London. What has happened? I am here at the

:02:03.:02:13.

Chambers of a legal firm where in just under an hour there will be a

:02:14.:02:18.

press conference by the seven women who have been given an unreserved

:02:19.:02:23.

apology by the Metropolitan Police because they had relationships with

:02:24.:02:26.

five undercover policeman without knowing their real identities. The

:02:27.:02:30.

Metropolitan Police has issued an unreserved apology to the women and

:02:31.:02:34.

a very detailed statement. It really couldn't be clearer, the statement

:02:35.:02:39.

says that the relationships were abusive, deceitful and manipulative.

:02:40.:02:44.

It says they were a violation of women's human rights and a gross

:02:45.:02:47.

violation of the women's personal dignity and integrity, and an abuse

:02:48.:02:53.

of police power, which caused the women significant trauma. I

:02:54.:02:57.

unreservedly apologise, says Assistant Commissioner Martin

:02:58.:03:00.

Hewitt, speaking on behalf of the Metropolitan. He makes another of

:03:01.:03:04.

points. The women did not bring these relationships or what happened

:03:05.:03:09.

in them on themselves, it may have reflected attitudes towards women in

:03:10.:03:12.

the Metropolitan Police at the time. He says there is no place for those

:03:13.:03:17.

attitudes. In some cases he believes that the undercover officers preyed

:03:18.:03:20.

on the good nature of the women and manipulated their real motion 's,

:03:21.:03:23.

leaving them at risk of further abuse. He says the questions about

:03:24.:03:28.

weather the officers may have had genuine feelings for the women is

:03:29.:03:32.

entirely irrelevant and it does not make their conduct except the ball.

:03:33.:03:36.

It is a clear statement, a clear apology, and substantial

:03:37.:03:42.

compensation is also been awarded to the seven women, but I am told that

:03:43.:03:46.

is not what they were seeking. What they wanted above all was an apology

:03:47.:03:50.

from the Met Police, and today they have it. Thank you, Danny.

:03:51.:03:53.

One of the women had a relationship for more than four years with

:03:54.:03:56.

She told our home affairs correspondent June Kelly how he

:03:57.:04:00.

We attended relationship counselling for about 18 months, because I

:04:01.:04:10.

wanted a baby, and he didn't. We were planning for a future. We had a

:04:11.:04:16.

very domestic lifestyle. I was a schoolteacher, he was a joiner. He

:04:17.:04:19.

would go out to work at six o'clock every morning, the back-out about

:04:20.:04:24.

5:30pm. We would have said that together, we might go out to a

:04:25.:04:28.

meeting, or not. He was completely integrated into my life, he is

:04:29.:04:32.

ingrained in all the memorabilia of my life, the family photos from that

:04:33.:04:36.

period of my life. My mother got remarried during that time, my

:04:37.:04:42.

stepbrother got remarried. He was a very big part... He was my life for

:04:43.:04:48.

five years. And then, overnight on he disappeared. And when he

:04:49.:04:52.

disappeared, what did you think? I did not know what to think. It

:04:53.:04:56.

didn't make sense. I knew a little bit about depression and I

:04:57.:05:00.

understood that he was not functioning very well. After a

:05:01.:05:06.

relatively short space of time, a few weeks, I met with another

:05:07.:05:13.

activist who asked me lots of questions and said that we needed to

:05:14.:05:16.

check that he, basically, wasn't a spy. At that point I know what this

:05:17.:05:22.

person was talking about, but came away thinking, could he have been a

:05:23.:05:29.

spy? It made everything slotted into place, if he was. It would have made

:05:30.:05:32.

sense of the fact that I never met his family, they'd sense of the fact

:05:33.:05:35.

that I never saw any photographs from when he was younger, the

:05:36.:05:43.

legend, that I now realise it was, to avoid me digging further into his

:05:44.:05:48.

background, would have all been part of that. And I convinced myself,

:05:49.:05:54.

despite the fact that most people around me thought I was going

:05:55.:05:57.

insane, but I convinced myself that that was what the truth was, that he

:05:58.:06:02.

was a state agent of some sort. I wasn't sure weather that was MI5 or

:06:03.:06:06.

special Branch. I would have recurring dreams for about a year

:06:07.:06:11.

and a half where I would see him in the dream and ask him, are you

:06:12.:06:17.

Special Branch or MI5? Then I would wake up.

:06:18.:06:22.

Let's go back to the breaking news out of Mali, 170 people being held

:06:23.:06:26.

hostage in a luxury hotel in the capital, Bamako. The latest reports

:06:27.:06:35.

suggest that six staff members are inside the hotel, six staff members

:06:36.:06:41.

of Turkish airlines. It is the first information we are getting

:06:42.:06:47.

specifically of those caught up inside this hostagetaking in the

:06:48.:06:53.

Radisson Blu in Mali. Turkish Outlines says six staff members are

:06:54.:06:59.

in that hotel. It has a lot of international best working in the

:07:00.:07:02.

diplomatic community. The government, also add port is

:07:03.:07:10.

workers, and Turkish Airlines says six of its workers are caught up in

:07:11.:07:13.

the siege. There is some security at this hotel equals it would have been

:07:14.:07:18.

seen as a potential target in a country which has had problems with

:07:19.:07:22.

Islamic extremism following a military coup in 2012. There have

:07:23.:07:30.

been various incidents. Mainly the North is insecure, but there have

:07:31.:07:33.

been militant attacks further south this year. This is the hotel, the

:07:34.:07:38.

Radisson Blu in Bamako, the capital of Mali, which is under attack right

:07:39.:07:45.

now. There are reports that some hostages who were able to recite

:07:46.:07:51.

verses of the Koran were freed. The hotel is saying that in terms of the

:07:52.:07:57.

numbers seized, 140 guests and 30 employees of that hotel. The reports

:07:58.:08:04.

are that up to ten gunmen stormed the hotel, shouting Allahu Akbar, or

:08:05.:08:09.

God is great in Arabic, before firing on the ground and taking

:08:10.:08:12.

hostages. I can bring in one of our

:08:13.:08:24.

correspondents from BBC Afrique. Please bring this up to date. Some

:08:25.:08:31.

of the hostages who were able to recite verses from the Koran have

:08:32.:08:34.

been saved, others are still inside the hotel. There is a massive

:08:35.:08:39.

security operation going on as we are speaking. It involves the French

:08:40.:08:49.

forces, the Mali troops and the US forces present in Mali. It is early

:08:50.:08:59.

in the morning, that these gunmen came. Our correspondent on the field

:09:00.:09:04.

told us that the gardeners who saw them coming were frightened and had

:09:05.:09:09.

to leave the place. When they came, they went straight to the seventh

:09:10.:09:13.

floor. Weather they had a specific target, we don't know. They are

:09:14.:09:23.

presidential suites and a number of international guests stay there. At

:09:24.:09:25.

least the staying at his hotel, which has 190 rooms. -- as we speak,

:09:26.:09:32.

many guests are staying at this hotel. The seventh floor is where

:09:33.:09:38.

the highest profile guests would be? That is what we understand. They

:09:39.:09:41.

stormed the hotel, they went straight to the seventh floor. We

:09:42.:09:46.

don't know if they were targeting a particular person or group, but what

:09:47.:09:52.

is sure is that there are reports coming from Bamako, recently the

:09:53.:10:00.

founder of an Islamist radical group issued a video asking his followers

:10:01.:10:08.

to attack French forces and French interests in the country. A former

:10:09.:10:13.

French colony, and following on from the Paris attack, people might

:10:14.:10:18.

wonder whether there is a link, whether the timing is medical

:10:19.:10:22.

incidents? That is what many people would ask. -- whether the timing is

:10:23.:10:30.

not a coincidence? Radical groups, whether rebel groups, Islamist in

:10:31.:10:35.

the country, they have not been happy about the French intervention

:10:36.:10:40.

three years ago. Some of them may think that it is a containment

:10:41.:10:46.

strategy, they had been contained but not defeated, Mali being a very

:10:47.:10:52.

complex country. More than 1 million square kilometres. The northern part

:10:53.:10:56.

has a desert area with lots of mountains. It has been a hideout for

:10:57.:11:01.

the Islamist 's. They are now showing that they can come out and

:11:02.:11:09.

strike, and in the North, West but also in capital, Oracle, to degs

:11:10.:11:13.

target. Earlier I spoke to Kate Forbes, a

:11:14.:11:17.

reporter who has previously stayed at this hotel.

:11:18.:11:23.

It is a decompression place where we stayed when we were covering the war

:11:24.:11:26.

in the north of Mali. Ali has a big drop them with the Islamic she had

:11:27.:11:34.

is movement, mainly in the North -- Mali has a big problem with the

:11:35.:11:43.

Islamic, jihadist movement. This hotel is used by NGOs, the World

:11:44.:11:49.

Bank, the IMF, those sorts of high-level NGOs, diplomat. It is in

:11:50.:11:56.

the centre of town, quite expensive. It has security on the front of the

:11:57.:12:00.

building. When you go in, you are met by security, but I am not sure

:12:01.:12:08.

how this happened. The fact that high profile westerners would stay

:12:09.:12:12.

there would make it an obvious target? It does. When we were

:12:13.:12:17.

considering our options of somewhere to decompress after having gone up

:12:18.:12:22.

and down covering the war in the north, we were advised to think

:12:23.:12:25.

carefully about staying there because although it was the best

:12:26.:12:30.

hotel with everything that we needed, it is also extremely

:12:31.:12:36.

high-profile. The French community there is very strong. It is used for

:12:37.:12:42.

business meetings, for NGOs, politicians et cetera. It is an area

:12:43.:12:47.

that has a problem. Does that mean that tourists should stay away? The

:12:48.:12:53.

tourist industry took a real head after the war. French tourists more

:12:54.:12:57.

than Anglophone tourists, I would say, still go. Mali is an amazing

:12:58.:13:03.

country, it is definitely one to look at. But jihadis are targeting

:13:04.:13:09.

tourist points because they know it will make people stay away. There

:13:10.:13:16.

have been previous incident, I think there was one in August? Quite a few

:13:17.:13:21.

have been foiled, there have been small incident. And in the north, it

:13:22.:13:28.

became quite regular, the French army working with a million army.

:13:29.:13:32.

They have done a lot of work to secure the North. -- working with

:13:33.:13:42.

the Malian army. Tell us more about the strength of the Islamic she had

:13:43.:13:50.

is to movement and their resources? -- the Islamic she had movement?

:13:51.:14:00.

There was a lot of evidence of militant Islamist control of the

:14:01.:14:06.

town. They had burned lots of books. They had tried to impose their own

:14:07.:14:09.

codes of dress on female residents. Lots and lots of other rules. The

:14:10.:14:16.

French went in, they got them out, but as with most jihadi movements,

:14:17.:14:24.

you can't say that you have ever eradicated that section of society.

:14:25.:14:31.

What about the rest of society, how this is viewed? For the ordinary

:14:32.:15:06.

person, it reflects their view, this is not Islam, this is not our

:15:07.:15:09.

religion, this is not our society, it is

:15:10.:15:20.

a French presidential source has reportedly said French people are

:15:21.:15:25.

among those held in the hotel siege. It follows on from Turkish

:15:26.:15:30.

airlines confirming that six of its staff are not hotel. There have been

:15:31.:15:33.

reports that several Chinese are in that hotel. No further details of

:15:34.:15:38.

who is caught up in this 170 hostages being held in that hotel in

:15:39.:15:45.

the capital of Mali, Bamako. The Foreign Office says it is monitoring

:15:46.:15:50.

events. Let's bring you up to date with the latest developments.

:15:51.:15:56.

The Radisson Blu hotel in Bamako is under attack from gunmen, 170 people

:15:57.:16:08.

are held hostage. There is a massive ongoing security operation. Those

:16:09.:16:14.

being held are said to be a guests and 40 staff. It is understood the

:16:15.:16:20.

attackers be' car rammed through a security barrier. -- said to be 130

:16:21.:16:28.

guests. Mali has been plagued by insecurity since Islamist groups

:16:29.:16:32.

seized control of the North and were then blocked by French troops.

:16:33.:16:38.

A week on from the Paris terror attacks, Theresa May is urging the

:16:39.:16:42.

European Union to rapidly implement further border security measures.

:16:43.:16:48.

She is joined counterparts in Brussels for an emergency meeting in

:16:49.:16:51.

the wake of the Paris attacks. It follows evidence that some of them

:16:52.:16:57.

ended France undetected or posing as Syrian refugees. -- entered.

:16:58.:17:00.

Senior police chiefs say more budget cuts could affect

:17:01.:17:03.

the UK's ability to respond to a terror attack like Paris.

:17:04.:17:05.

in the Chancellor's Spending Review next week.

:17:06.:17:08.

charged with murdering 15-year-old Kayleigh Haywood.

:17:09.:17:11.

Stephen Beadman, who's 28, is also charged with rape.

:17:12.:17:14.

Kayleigh was last seen in Ibstock, Leicestershire, on Friday evening.

:17:15.:17:16.

Back to developments in Mali, 170 people being held hostage in a

:17:17.:17:34.

luxury hotel in Bamako, the rad as in the is popular with those in the

:17:35.:17:41.

diplomatic community. -- Radisson Blu. It is also popular with the

:17:42.:17:45.

government and those who work for airlines. It is... Just hearing, let

:17:46.:17:51.

me just tell you that the Malian president is returning to the

:17:52.:18:00.

country. He has broken off a visit to Chad, where he has been attending

:18:01.:18:05.

a meeting of GE five Sahel members to discuss security in the meeting.

:18:06.:18:12.

-- G5 Sahel. These are the first pictures we are getting of the

:18:13.:18:18.

scenes outside the hotel. There is a large security presence, and I can

:18:19.:18:21.

bring in Ben Geoghegan, who can bring is right up to date with the

:18:22.:18:24.

latest developments. Yeah, just watching bits and pieces on social

:18:25.:18:32.

media, looking at the footage. From what we have been able to see so

:18:33.:18:36.

far, it does not look as though there are lots of security there.

:18:37.:18:41.

One bit of footage from a Chinese tourists inside the hotel is looking

:18:42.:18:45.

down onto quite an empty street, so not quite sure just how big a

:18:46.:18:49.

security operation or where it is, but obviously a lot of things about

:18:50.:18:54.

this are still unclear. As you were saying, 140 guests, 30 employees

:18:55.:18:59.

taken hostage earlier this morning. Conflicting reports about how many

:19:00.:19:03.

gunmen, there was a report of a car being rammed through security,

:19:04.:19:08.

people shouting God is great in Arabic. The hotel owners have put

:19:09.:19:13.

out a statement saying, as far as they knew, there were two gunmen,

:19:14.:19:17.

and conflicting reports about whether they were just gunmen, or

:19:18.:19:20.

whether they had grenades as well, there were reports of people hearing

:19:21.:19:26.

explosions at the hotel. The US embassy is telling its nationals to

:19:27.:19:32.

stay inside, and they have described this as an ongoing shooter

:19:33.:19:36.

operation. That is their language. We have also had reports that a

:19:37.:19:40.

number of people have been evacuated and have been taken to hospital. You

:19:41.:19:45.

were saying earlier that there was a report about people being released

:19:46.:19:48.

if they knew some of the verses of the Koran. Again, we have not

:19:49.:19:53.

confirmed that, but it is coming up on the wires. Also, Chinese tourists

:19:54.:19:58.

in no tell, six members of staff belonging to Turkish Airlines. We

:19:59.:20:04.

know this is an international area of the capital, so bound to be

:20:05.:20:06.

tourists from different countries there. And obviously this is an

:20:07.:20:14.

ongoing situation, and we don't yet have a clear picture, but it seems

:20:15.:20:18.

as though a people, at the beginning of this, had been taken hostage. We

:20:19.:20:23.

can bring in a survivor of the attack in Bamako, he escaped from

:20:24.:20:28.

the hotel gym. Thank you for joining us, tell us where you are. You are

:20:29.:20:35.

welcome! I am in Bamako, I am living in the rad as an complex for the

:20:36.:20:39.

last two years, and everyday I do my daily work-out, from six o'clock

:20:40.:20:44.

until eight o'clock in the morning. Usually during that time, there are

:20:45.:20:51.

a few people, but today it was extremely quiet. There were two

:20:52.:20:57.

people inside the gym, they left, and I was a bit worried, because it

:20:58.:21:02.

was quite during the process. We have the music on all the time at

:21:03.:21:07.

the gym, so I didn't hear any gunshots. I left the gym, and I

:21:08.:21:12.

tried to go in the lobby. I opened the lobby door slowly, and I saw

:21:13.:21:16.

bullets on the ground. So I closed the door of the lobby, and I went

:21:17.:21:24.

door to door, I came back into the gym, and from there I left the

:21:25.:21:28.

hotel. Outside the hotel, there were police and military, they escorted

:21:29.:21:34.

me out and brought me into my house, which is literally near Radisson, 20

:21:35.:21:39.

or 30 metres. So tell us more about the evidence you saw inside the

:21:40.:21:43.

hotel, you saw bullets on the ground? Yes, I just opened the door

:21:44.:21:48.

for two seconds, and I saw bullets on the ground, and I closed the door

:21:49.:21:55.

slowly and I left. I mean, everything was clean and clear at

:21:56.:21:59.

the gym area. I didn't see any people, but there were no bullet

:22:00.:22:04.

holes or anything, that was it, I went out. Obviously I went out. You

:22:05.:22:09.

mentioned music in the gym men she did not hear anything, tell us what

:22:10.:22:15.

you did here that finally gave rise to you having concerns. -- you did

:22:16.:22:23.

not hear anything. I did hear sporadic gunshots, but the gym, from

:22:24.:22:28.

the lobby, it is a separate part, so it is quite far away, and it is very

:22:29.:22:35.

difficult to hear anything. So you managed to get away, and are you

:22:36.:22:41.

back at home now? Yeah, yeah. How close is that to the hotel? It is

:22:42.:22:46.

adjacent, we are in the complex near the hotel, which is like 30

:22:47.:22:51.

centimetres, I walked there every morning. I walk there every

:22:52.:23:00.

morning. It is near, we are in the complex, about 20 villas which are

:23:01.:23:05.

adjacent to the hotel, it is near. Can you see and hear what is going

:23:06.:23:12.

on right now? Can I see? If I go out in the street, yeah, I can see

:23:13.:23:16.

something, but the security guards have advised us to stay home. OK,

:23:17.:23:25.

stay home, stay safe. But I can hear sporadic gunshots, there have been

:23:26.:23:30.

quite a few, yeah, even in the last minute there has been something.

:23:31.:23:35.

There have been reports that the gunmen have grenades, have you heard

:23:36.:23:39.

any explosions? No, well, I heard one explosion, but it could be like

:23:40.:23:46.

the military trying to get inside the hotel. It could be anything. But

:23:47.:23:52.

that was some time ago. Tell us who would stay at this hotel, who is it

:23:53.:23:59.

popular with? I mean, this hotel is mostly popular with foreign

:24:00.:24:05.

diplomats, people of the UN, businessmen flying in the country,

:24:06.:24:10.

military people, especially the French, the French operating in the

:24:11.:24:13.

country for the last few years, mostly in the North to fight the

:24:14.:24:18.

terrorists up there. It is mostly popular for foreign people and

:24:19.:24:24.

businessmen who come in the country. We are hearing that Malian special

:24:25.:24:30.

forces are at the scene of the hotel siege, they are giving... Oh, and

:24:31.:24:38.

France is providing logistics and intelligence support according to a

:24:39.:24:42.

French diplomatic source. We are hearing that security forces are

:24:43.:24:47.

storming the hotel. Can you hear, that is according to the AFP news

:24:48.:24:50.

agency, can you hear anything different at the moment? We are

:24:51.:24:54.

getting reports that the hotel is being stormed. Now? Before I could

:24:55.:25:04.

hear something. We know that they are gathering special forces, more

:25:05.:25:10.

people, in the area. Even the guards in the complex are well armed now.

:25:11.:25:16.

We are in the complex. How much security did you see when you left

:25:17.:25:20.

the hotel? What was there in terms of police, army and other security?

:25:21.:25:26.

Yeah, there was some people there, some police, and I saw some French

:25:27.:25:31.

guys as well, especially Malians, which escorted me home. But it was

:25:32.:25:37.

early time. I did not even finish my work-out, I did not have time to

:25:38.:25:41.

finish my work-out, I left early, or something? Which was just the

:25:42.:25:49.

beginning of the gathering of the forces. We are just getting reports

:25:50.:25:55.

from the news agencies all the time, we are hearing that around ten

:25:56.:26:00.

people have been evacuated from the hotel. Special forces have been able

:26:01.:26:06.

to liberate and free around ten people, that is according to the AFP

:26:07.:26:12.

news agency. There were also reports earlier that gunmen had let people

:26:13.:26:16.

go if they were able to recite verses of the Koran. The Koran, that

:26:17.:26:24.

is correct. I mean, if they are trying... If they try and ask them

:26:25.:26:32.

to, you know, say something from the Koran, it seems to be obvious, the

:26:33.:26:37.

motive behind this operation, this terrorist attack, what they are

:26:38.:26:43.

trying to do. It is a hotel that, as you say, you use on a daily basis,

:26:44.:26:47.

have you been concerned about security? Well, I was a bit

:26:48.:26:55.

concerned, but we have, in the last few days, there was a mining

:26:56.:27:03.

conference here, and there were many foreign people, and it was nice and

:27:04.:27:09.

quiet, so to be honest with you, I did not really believe anything like

:27:10.:27:15.

that would happen today or especially at this time in the

:27:16.:27:20.

morning. This is not the time that, you know, the flight crews or people

:27:21.:27:27.

check in. You mentioned foreign diplomats, people working for the

:27:28.:27:31.

UN, militarily staying at that hotel. Yeah. Is it popular with

:27:32.:27:37.

tourists? I mean, I would say the Radisson hotel, it is like, you

:27:38.:27:45.

would say like most companies are there, where expats go for

:27:46.:27:50.

restaurants and for drinks, this is the area where they live as well. So

:27:51.:28:00.

this is a place which is under threat, which it was today. Michael,

:28:01.:28:06.

thank you very much indeed for joining us, Michael managed to

:28:07.:28:10.

escape from the hotel in Bamako, where he had been using the gym. He

:28:11.:28:16.

was in the gym as events were unfolding and got away safely to his

:28:17.:28:20.

home nearby. Ben Geoghegan is here, staying across all the latest

:28:21.:28:24.

developments, bring us up to date. The latest we have had, a number of

:28:25.:28:28.

people, I think around ten people, being evacuated from the hotel as a

:28:29.:28:34.

was old of the security forces going in there. It appears as though they

:28:35.:28:39.

may have rescued them. -- as a result. But as they went through the

:28:40.:28:44.

hotel, there was a number of witnesses who saw the body of a man

:28:45.:28:50.

lying on the floor, so that is the latest report we have had, but the

:28:51.:28:55.

bigger picture is of about 170 people, earlier this morning, taken

:28:56.:29:01.

hostage at the hotel, 140 guests, 30 employees. I think there are now

:29:02.:29:05.

more reports than there were of the number of being gunmen being around

:29:06.:29:09.

ten, rather than two, which is what the hotel owners said in a

:29:10.:29:14.

statement, just two gunmen. More reports are now suggesting there

:29:15.:29:18.

were more gunmen than that. They broke through a security barrier,

:29:19.:29:21.

went into the hotel. As we have heard from our own reporter in the

:29:22.:29:27.

Beijing, apparently they went straight up to the seventh floor. We

:29:28.:29:32.

don't know why, but apparently they targeted that area have the hotel.

:29:33.:29:39.

-- -- our reporter in the region. The US and French embassy say they

:29:40.:29:43.

want their people to stay indoors, the Americans describing this as an

:29:44.:29:48.

ongoing shooter situation. The British Embassy in London is saying

:29:49.:29:55.

are urgently trying to find out if British nationals are trapped in the

:29:56.:29:58.

hotel, a very international place, likely to be tourists, business

:29:59.:30:01.

people, diplomats, military officials from all over the world.

:30:02.:30:08.

This is an ongoing hostage situation, very different,

:30:09.:30:13.

obviously, from Paris, which will be fresh in people's mines. Yes,

:30:14.:30:19.

totally indiscriminate. It looks as though, from some of the reports,

:30:20.:30:23.

and again we must be careful about repeating all of this, but some

:30:24.:30:27.

reports are suggesting that the hostage-takers have read a number of

:30:28.:30:30.

people once they have been able to test their knowledge of the Koran, a

:30:31.:30:34.

number of people having been released at they have been able to

:30:35.:30:38.

recite passages from the Koran, so a hostage situation, we do not know if

:30:39.:30:43.

there are demands they are likely to make, it seems as though they are

:30:44.:30:46.

dividing people up, deciding to keep some and release others.

:30:47.:30:52.

The Reuters news agency says that French nationals are among those

:30:53.:31:02.

held up, according to a source close to President Hollande. French people

:31:03.:31:06.

are present and the president is following the situation closely.

:31:07.:31:10.

Separately, a diplomatic force says that Marley and special forces are

:31:11.:31:16.

up the scene and France is providing logistical support -- says that

:31:17.:31:21.

Malian special forces are at the seams. Apparently the gunmen

:31:22.:31:26.

attacking the hotel were shouting Islamic slogans. And also there are

:31:27.:31:32.

reports that they have apparently allowed some people to go if they

:31:33.:31:37.

could recite verses of the Koran. The French will be incredibly

:31:38.:31:41.

anxious, wondering whether they have somehow been targeted. It is a

:31:42.:31:44.

former French colony and the Frenchman Terry went in to disrupt

:31:45.:31:49.

the insurgency a couple of years ago -- and the French military went in.

:31:50.:31:54.

We just don't know whether they have been targeted, whether they were a

:31:55.:31:59.

particular target or they have just been caught up along with several

:32:00.:32:03.

dozens of other people who it seems are still being held hostage at this

:32:04.:32:12.

hotel. So these are the first moving pictures that we have from the

:32:13.:32:17.

scene. Looking at these pictures that we have, there does not seem to

:32:18.:32:22.

be a huge amount of movement around outside. We are seeing these UN

:32:23.:32:31.

vans, another vehicle, but as we understand the it is personnel from

:32:32.:32:36.

the UN and local security and French army dividing logistical support.

:32:37.:32:40.

And the local police, by the looks about the occult. You do not know

:32:41.:32:44.

where these pictures are being taken from, a cord and has probably been

:32:45.:32:49.

set up for away from the hotel. We don't know if this is close to the

:32:50.:32:53.

hotel or some distance. The traffic seems to be moving reasonably

:32:54.:32:58.

freely. I was looking at footage filmed from the hotel by a Chinese

:32:59.:33:01.

tourist which came upon social media. That seemed to show empty

:33:02.:33:06.

streets below the hotel itself. Difficult to say how many security

:33:07.:33:13.

forces are there. You would imagine that, given what has gone on in the

:33:14.:33:18.

country for some time, in an area like that the securities says would

:33:19.:33:22.

have been ready to deploy fairly quickly and we would expect quite a

:33:23.:33:27.

large presence by now. We have a reports of at least three hostages

:33:28.:33:31.

killed. This is just one news agency, AFP, no further

:33:32.:33:37.

confirmation, but AFP says the country's security minister has said

:33:38.:33:42.

security forces are stalling the establishment and there are reports

:33:43.:33:45.

that at least three hostages have been killed. -- storming the

:33:46.:33:53.

establishment. It sounds like there is a storming under way as the

:33:54.:33:57.

security forces tried to bring this hostagetaking to an end, but these

:33:58.:34:01.

are reports, we are finding it difficult to get reports on the

:34:02.:34:06.

ground. This is the latest from AFP, one of the big agencies, saying

:34:07.:34:12.

three hostages have been killed. I think the same agency reported that

:34:13.:34:16.

security forces had gone into the hotel and managed to allow ten or so

:34:17.:34:21.

people to escape. There were reports of a wad Eli Ying on the floor. -- a

:34:22.:34:33.

body lying on the floor. It is possible. It does look as though

:34:34.:34:40.

that may have been fatalities, people may have been killed. The

:34:41.:34:49.

latest copy from AFP quotes a spokesperson talking about what is

:34:50.:34:53.

happening right now in terms of storming the hotel. They are saying

:34:54.:35:03.

that there are two to three hostage-takers? We have had

:35:04.:35:07.

conflicting reports. Several reports say as many as ten. You would

:35:08.:35:10.

imagine that to mount an operation like this, perhaps the terrorists

:35:11.:35:15.

would go in with more than two people. It is quite a large hotel,

:35:16.:35:21.

190 rooms. They may not be able to gain control in the way that they

:35:22.:35:24.

seem to have done with just two people. It would make sense that

:35:25.:35:30.

there would perhaps be more than that. It is one of those things, we

:35:31.:35:35.

don't know for sure. Conflicting reports, people say only two gunman,

:35:36.:35:42.

others say ten. The company that owns the hotel, in its statement a

:35:43.:35:47.

little while ago, said they thought there were just two hostage-takers.

:35:48.:35:55.

We are hearing from the US Embassy in Mali that it is asking citizens

:35:56.:36:00.

to shelter in place. The French authorities are also saying that any

:36:01.:36:06.

French citizens must shelter. In terms of nationalities involved in

:36:07.:36:10.

this hostagetaking, Turkish Airlines say that six employees were in the

:36:11.:36:14.

hotel. We have had reports of some Chinese in the hotel and French

:36:15.:36:21.

presidential sources say there were some French in the hotel, but we

:36:22.:36:30.

don't have numbers. The AFP, sorry, the AP newsagency is quoting

:36:31.:36:35.

somebody who has been able to leave the hotel. She was a guest and

:36:36.:36:38.

managed to leave with six other people. They were escorted out by

:36:39.:36:44.

security forces as the gunman reportedly rushed towards the fifth

:36:45.:36:47.

or sixth floor. She said, I think they are still there, I have left

:36:48.:36:52.

the hotel, I don't know where to go, I am tired and in shock.

:36:53.:36:57.

Earlier we spoke to a man who lives just by the hotel, he was in the

:36:58.:37:01.

hotel as this was unfolding, using the gym. He said he did not yet

:37:02.:37:06.

anything as he was listening to music. It was only when he left the

:37:07.:37:11.

gym that he saw blitz on the floor and realise that something was under

:37:12.:37:15.

way -- bullet is on the floor. He returned safely home.

:37:16.:37:22.

Let's bring in someone from the Africa programme at Chatham House,

:37:23.:37:25.

which specialises in the Central African Republic. There are 170

:37:26.:37:32.

hostages, we understand, inside this hotel. What is your perspective? It

:37:33.:37:37.

is very hard to tell exactly what is happening on the ground with all

:37:38.:37:41.

these crisis situations, but the more important background is that on

:37:42.:37:46.

the one hand, the jihadists in Mali have been losing political ground.

:37:47.:37:49.

There was a peace agreement in the middle of this year between the

:37:50.:37:54.

non-jihadi rebels campaigning for autonomy for the North, and the

:37:55.:37:58.

Government. That is shifting the political momentum a little bit

:37:59.:38:02.

against the radicals. They then fought back. We have had a series of

:38:03.:38:08.

attacks. There was a hotel siege in a small town in the centre of the

:38:09.:38:14.

country in August. The Malian special forces managed to end bad,

:38:15.:38:17.

but there was considerable loss of life. In October, in a recording

:38:18.:38:22.

which is only just emerged, one of the leaders of the original jihadi

:38:23.:38:30.

takeover of northern Mali basically reaffirmed his face in the jihadist

:38:31.:38:33.

struggle, rejected the peace deal outright. Last week a senior figure

:38:34.:38:40.

in the FLM, and the jihadist group, was captured by security forces. In

:38:41.:38:46.

some ways, they are on the defensive, politically, but in

:38:47.:38:49.

security terms, because they have moved from conventional combat to

:38:50.:38:54.

scatter-gun terrorism, if you like, all over the country, it is very

:38:55.:38:57.

difficult to tackle because you never know when the next attack will

:38:58.:39:01.

be. There have been attacks pretty much all over Mali this year. The

:39:02.:39:08.

situation predates Paris. The French are caught up in Mali, a former

:39:09.:39:13.

French colony. Their military has been on the ground in Mali. Some

:39:14.:39:21.

might wonder whether this is another attack on France? As far as the

:39:22.:39:25.

jihadists are concerned, they will see it as an attack on France. The

:39:26.:39:31.

devices -- decisive factor in the crisis at two or three years ago was

:39:32.:39:36.

when the Malian government, with the support of the whole population,

:39:37.:39:41.

pretty much, the French army intervened decisively to end the

:39:42.:39:44.

jihadist takeover in the north of the country. There is very little

:39:45.:39:48.

popular support for the jihadist agenda at all in Mali. Islam in Mali

:39:49.:39:54.

is traditionally very relaxed, tolerant, pluralistic. The country

:39:55.:40:01.

has quite a long democratic culture. Jihadism is very much in variance

:40:02.:40:05.

with Malian traditions. But because the French played that critical role

:40:06.:40:10.

in 2013, and maintain a force in the north of the country, basically

:40:11.:40:17.

helping the Malian Army tackle terrorism, that means that anything

:40:18.:40:21.

French in some ways will be viewed as a target. A very different attack

:40:22.:40:24.

from what we have just seen happening in Paris. Talking to one

:40:25.:40:31.

expert who was saying that this is Al-Qaeda affiliated militants rather

:40:32.:40:41.

than Isis militants? It is hard to define. With these international

:40:42.:40:47.

terrorist franchises, people can announce that they are the local arm

:40:48.:40:51.

of this or that movement, it is quite hard to pin down. But one of

:40:52.:40:57.

the main groups that led the jihadist takeover of northern Mali

:40:58.:41:03.

back in 2012 was Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Maghreb, which was formerly

:41:04.:41:07.

affiliated to Al-Qaeda. What we don't know about many recent

:41:08.:41:11.

incident, some of them may have connections to that group. Some of

:41:12.:41:18.

them may be linked to other groups. The hotel siege in August seems to

:41:19.:41:22.

have been essentially a local preacher with some violent followers

:41:23.:41:27.

tapping into certain local grievances among sections of the

:41:28.:41:31.

community and attracting some local young men to join his group. That is

:41:32.:41:37.

very different to the, how can one put it, international jihadist

:41:38.:41:40.

involved in the crisis of three years ago. At this stage in this

:41:41.:41:45.

stage we do not know who the gunman are. They could have been motivated

:41:46.:41:55.

by both local factors and this international wider agenda.

:41:56.:41:59.

Everybody in Mali, cost the country has very close links to France,

:42:00.:42:03.

everyone not only will have seen the news from Paris but many people will

:42:04.:42:09.

know people in front. -- in France. There have been cases in the French

:42:10.:42:17.

siege back in January, the siege in the Jewish supermarket, it was a

:42:18.:42:20.

Malian resident in France who rescued many of the hostages,

:42:21.:42:25.

somebody working in the supermarket. There is quite a strong connection.

:42:26.:42:31.

It is quite possible but French events have triggered this.

:42:32.:42:35.

Let's bring in Ben Geoghegan, staying across the latest

:42:36.:42:37.

developments. A report has come in that 20 of the

:42:38.:42:43.

hostages have been released or evacuated by the security forces. A

:42:44.:42:49.

number of reports quoting a Malian government minister saying at least

:42:50.:42:51.

three of the hostages have been killed. The minister said security

:42:52.:42:55.

forces were storming the building and had managed to free around ten

:42:56.:43:00.

of those detained. I think that number has perhaps gone up to 20. It

:43:01.:43:04.

looks as though this operation is still under way but it seems like

:43:05.:43:08.

the security forces are having some success. One of the line is that

:43:09.:43:13.

President Obama has been briefed on this attack by the national security

:43:14.:43:19.

adviser, he is following events as well. Ben thank you very much. You

:43:20.:43:26.

have been watching our continuing coverage of events in Mali, where a

:43:27.:43:34.

hotel siege is under way. 170 hostages reportedly held in Bisla

:43:35.:43:41.

three -- this luxury hotel in Bamako, the capital of Mali.

:43:42.:43:46.

Continuing coverage on BBC news throughout the day. I will say

:43:47.:43:50.

goodbye. Have a lovely weekend. See you soon.

:43:51.:43:53.

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