02/02/2017 Victoria Derbyshire

I'm Victoria Derbyshire, welcome to the programme.

The Government's strategy for Brexit will be published today after MPs

back Theresa May's right to trigger the process for leaving the EU.

The ayes to the right, 498. The noes to the left, 114.

CHEERING Also this morning -

the new property trap. We'll bring you an exclusive report

on the misery of homeowners who are locked into high charges

and - in some cases - are having the ground sold

from beneath their feet. I have asked the company for a

breakdown of how the freeholders cupped elated, the methodology of

the evaluation, and they have failed to provide me with it. They have

said I can go with it, or if I challenge it, I have to take on the

legal fees. And no release for killers

who won't reveal the wheerabouts of their victims' bodies -

that's what one mum is campaigning for after her daughter

was murdered 30 years ago. We will talk to marry McCourt in the

next hour. Welcome to the programme,

we're live until 11 this morning. You've no doubt seen Beyonce's

surprise announcement that she's pregnant with twins -

it has now become the most liked That photo was taken when half a

million people had liked it, we are now up to over 7 million. That is a

lot of likes, isn't it? She said she and her husband Jay Z

"have been blessed two times over", adding "we are incredibly grateful

that our family will She signed it "The Carters",

Jay Z's real last name. Spit Barbara it is an interesting

picture. -- it is an interesting picture, isn't it?

Wearing just her bra and knickers and weirdly a veil, and kneeling

If you've been pregnant with twins, and you took a pic

of your belly with your twins inside - and I kno wyou all did,

and you feel you can send it me - then do and we'll show it on TV.

If you are pregnant right now and feel you can

recreate the Beyonce look - send me that pic, too.

That is the bit I am most looking forward to in the programme today.

My most liked photo on Instagram is: It's little Gracie, that one got 50

likes. I've got a long way to go to reach seven million and whatever it

was. That is my little black cocker spaniel.

We're talking about this morning - use the hashtag #VictoriaLive

and if you text, you will be charged at the standard network rate.

Parliament takes the first step towards leaving

the European Union as MPs vote overwhelmingly in favour

Last night MPs approved legislation which gives the Prime Minister

the power to start negotiations with European leaders.

Theresa May will outline plans for leaving the EU today, as our

Political Correspondent Iain Watson reports.

Seven months after the referendum and the process of leaving

Last night, MPs backed the principle of triggering Article 50 -

the formal opening of the EU exit door.

This was welcomed by prominent Leave campaigners.

What this shows is that we can go into this negotiation with some

Last month, the Prime Minister talked about her priorities.

Today, the Government will set out its plans for Brexit

in what is known as a white paper, a document which politicians

Next week, MPs will have another opportunity

While only one Conservative MP, veteran former chancellor

Ken Clarke, rebelled against his government last night,

others in his party who are worried about leaving the EU's single market

haven't ruled out opposing the plans further down the line.

There is a separate debate to be had.

I think many of us in Parliament and many, many thousands,

tens of thousands of people outside, have very firm views on that

which I hope the Government will give us time to debate.

But in the short term, it is Labour that looks more divided.

The official line was not to block the referendum result but 47

of Jeremy Corbyn's MPs defied him and voted against the process

The Labour leader has already lost three members of his top team

and two other pro-EU MPs in his Shadow Cabinet

are considering whether to resign next week.

All this before the British government has even begun

Let's speak to our political guru Norman Smith.

What next, Norman? Well, Brexit a go-go, I think. Mrs may now has the

back of the House of Commons to leave the EU, and you are scratching

your head as to why she fought tooth and nail to avoid giving MPs the

vote in the first place, it was dragged out of her by the European

court. She now has the mandate of the people and the referendum, and

the mandate of MPs, so I suspect her attention will shift from

Westminster to Brussels. There are some real battles looming ahead, but

as far as Westminster is concerned, her position has been hugely

strengthened by last night's vote. And what about Labour's position

after that vote? Complete dogs dinner, you have to say. More

resignations, more MPs walking out of the door, and these are not

anti-corporate MPs, two more shadow resignations possible, ten

frontbenchers divide Mr Corbyn, his whips office and the people who are

meant to enforce the will of the leader seems to be an open

insurrection, with three of them defying him it is a complete and

utter mess, and you just wonder how on earth Jeremy Corbyn is going to

put this party back together again. Thank you very much, Norman now.

Ben Brown is in the BBC Newsroom with a summary

A ban on scheduled night flights at Heathrow is being proposed,

as part of plans to build a third runway there.

Ministers will set out proposals for the 22 billion

pound expansion today - including the regulations

which the airport will have to comply with.

The debate over the expansion of Heathrow has long

After years of debate, the Government announced Heathrow

as their preferred location to build a new runway back in October 2016.

Today, they will be launching a 16-week consultation

as they make clear what their plans will be.

They're likely to include six domestic airports which will be

An additional 260,000 take-offs or landings will be

Support for communities affected by expansion and a ban on scheduled

flights for 6.5 hours overnight to reduce the impact of noise.

The Transport Secretary Chris Grayling is expected to say

the third runway at Heathrow will enhance UK's global links

But critics are still likely to have concerns.

The final vote will be held in Parliament later this year

or in 2018, but the runway is not expected to be operational

The Church of England has admitted that allegations of historical

physical abuse made against a former friend of the Archbishop

of Canterbury, Justin Welby, should have been

The Archbishop says although he worked with the barrister,

John Smythe, a former leader at Iwerne Holiday Camp,

who is accused of a series of allegations, he says he was not

The Bank of England is expected to upgrade its growth forecast

when it presents its latest assessment of

It's thought the Bank will predict annual growth

of around 1.8%, more than double the forecast

it made last August, in the weeks following the EU

But it's thought the quarterly report will also warn

Australia's Prime Minister, Malcolm Turnbull, has denied claims

that President Trump hung up on him during a fiery

telephone conversation over a refugee resettlement deal.

Mr Trump described the deal struck by the previous Obama

The arrangement allows the most vulnerable asylum seekers held

in offshore detention centres off Australia to be resettled in the US.

The Washington Post reported Mr Trump called the phone

conversation between the two leaders as "the worst by far"

10,000 fewer people applied to train to become nurses last year,

The figures - from the university admissions service UCAS -

They also show that overall university applications from UK

An investigation for this programme has found that some

homeowners who thought they'd bought their homes

outright are actually caught in complicated leaseholder deals.

Some have discovered the ground their property is built

on is being sold for profit without their knowledge.

A body that monitors anti-semitism in Britain says violence and abuse

against Jewish people has reached an all-time high.

According to the Community Security Trust, there were more than 1300

reported incidents last year, an increase

Facebook has been ordered to pay damages of almost ?400 million

over claims it unlawfully used another firm's

A court in Dallas ruled Facebook had breached a non-disclosure agreement.

The case ended hours before the company reported

a sharp rise in profits - it made more than ?2.8 billion

That's a summary of the latest BBC News - more at 9.30.

Thank you very much. The pictures are coming in! I knew you wouldn't

let me down. Very much looking forward to your pictures of when you

were pregnant with Twins or if you are currently pregnant with twins,

as Rebecca is. Just going to sort your picture out and put it on the

television in a minute. If you want to recreate the Beyonce picture, go

right ahead, because that would lease me very much. You can send

your pictures via Twitter, you can e-mail. If you are texting, you will

be charged at the standard network rate.

It was a contrasting night for the two Manchester clubs, wasn't it? It

is hard to see when Manchester City play like this, and they are only

down in fifth. They went into the match 13 points behind league

leaders Chelsea, and they were comfortable 4-0 win winners over

West Ham. Gabriel Jesus grabbed his first for the club after Kevin de

Bruyne's opener. They are now ten points off the top. But a different

night for Manchester United, left frustrated against Hull. Manager

Jose Mourinho was incensed after the final whistle for what he feels is

different treatment which he is getting from referees as opposed to

other Premier League managers. He said Jurgen Klopp in Liverpool's

match with Chelsea was complimented for his passion that he shows on the

sidelines, but after the match, Jose Mourinho said if he was to show

similar levels of emotion, he would be sent to the stands, and you can

see this double standard is certainly irritating him as he

walked out of his post-match interview afterwards. What is your

overall impression at night's performance? We didn't score. If you

don't score, it isn't possible to win. Their goalkeeper was in

marvellous form. He was. What you feel the referee should have put

them up on? If you don't know football, you shouldn't have the

microphone in your hand. A great night for Peter Crouch? It

was, he is a Premier League legend, and now in an exclusive club having

scored his 100th Premier League goal last night. Only 26 other players

have achieved that. This one came 15 years after he scored his first in

the top flight, and look celebrate! He reprised his signature move, the

robot is back! He pulled that out before the World Cup back in 2006,

and he thought he would entertain the crowds by doing it once again.

It certainly entertained us as well, this is what he had to say. How much

have you been practising that celebration this week in

anticipation? Not enough, by the looks of it! It was a little bit

stiff, it has been over ten years, I don't do it every day, let me say

that. But yes, it was a bit of the starch, I pulled it out. It was nice

to get the 100, really pleased to that milestone. He said he was

rusty, but I think he was looking pretty good. I can't believe you did

that! That is there for ever, you know! I am here all morning. You

thought about that, you considered it, and you came the to the decision

that you would still do it on television! I do like this

programme. Thank you to those people are now sending pictures of your

actual twins, I like that, too. First this morning.

In an exclusive investigation - homeowners who bought

their properties under complicated leasehold deals, have told this

programme of spiralling costs and a fear they'll have nothing left

Those affected don't own the land their houses are built on,

and in some cases that land is literally being bought

The Government says it's about to announce "radical

Our reporter James Longman has this special report.

Hello, and welcome to Taylor Wimpey's How To Make Your Move.

We can't buy it, we can't sell - I honestly don't know what we'll do.

It's the biggest mistake I've ever made.

It just seems immoral and completely unethical.

This is just an attempt to dupe people into a very

We all know there's a housing crisis in the UK.

Not enough homes, with many priced out.

To help Generation Rent become Generation Buy,

new homes are going up across the country.

But new or old, are you buying a leasehold or freehold home?

'Britain's first factory-made show house'.

If you're a freeholder, you just own your home outright.

We've got modern established period thatched.

But you can also lease your home to someone else.

That's the leaseholder, who basically rents time on your land.

At this stage, anything is worth looking at.

In recent years, the number of leaseholdS has shot up

and there are also more traps leaseholders can fall into.

It sells that house to Mr and Mrs Smith.

But what it sold is the lease to that house.

They haven't sold the ground it's on.

That's the freehold, and they keep that.

A couple of years later, the developer is then able

to sell the freehold, that's the ground that it's on,

It's a way of making money on the same house twice.

And here's the other catch - because it's a house and not a flat,

the law says that the developer does not have to warn

that they are going to do any of this.

And this whole business is worth hundreds of millions of pounds

This is Ellesmere Port near Liverpool.

It's a development like thousands of others across the UK.

But the houses here are leasehold, the developers keep the freeholds

So the people living here are essentially living

on ground which is being sold from underneath their feet

I had no idea that my home would be used as an endless income stream

for an investor or someone else's pension pot, because

Katie Kendrick bought her home from Bellway developers.

She was never told her freehold would be sold off.

Now she wants to buy it, the price has gone from ?4,000 to ?13,000.

I've asked the company for a breakdown of how

the freehold is calculated, the methodology to the valuation,

to which they have failed to provide me with.

They have said that I can either go with it or if I challenge it, then

I have to take on their legal fees to do so.

They have said I can come back with a counter offer

but without all of the information on how they calculate the freehold,

how can I make an informed decision on how to counteract their offer?

So at the moment, I just feel completely blind,

in a corner and I don't know which way to turn next

in terms of taking legal action, but you know,

It's been sold to this new company for 11 months

now and they've made, well, something that was worth ?4,000

11 months ago and now they are doing ?13,000,

they've made a considerable profit in less than a year, which puts

further pressure on me because now I'm thinking if that's how

much their investment's gone up within such a short time,

you know, I need to move quick on this, otherwise another year,

two years, they could sell it on and on and on and we could be

We asked Bellway to comment, but they didn't respond.

Homeground, the company that acts on behalf of the freeholder,

said its investors were UK pension institutions which bought

the freeholds as part of their very long-term investment strategy.

They said they were usually willing to informally negotiate a price

which can often save both time and legal fees.

In the rare event we cannot agree, it added, the leaseholder can use

Lindsey bought her flat with Taylor Wimpey developers.

She was originally quoted ?2,600 for her freehold.

Two years later, it had been sold on and the price was ?32,000.

She feels too embarrassed to show her face.

So you got a letter saying that the freehold was available?

But you decided at that time not to buy it?

And then later, what did you discover?

I rang them and said I'd like to buy it now and they just point blank

We've got a private investor who's bought it, so it's not for sale,

we've got a long-term interest in your property.

So I turned round and said I've got a long-term interest in my property,

it's my family home, it's my son's inheritance, it's not

yours to just line your pockets every year with and be

What's been the impact on you in all this?

That I feel like I've let everybody down because it wasn't right

But nobody said this is a one-time offer,

And it's frustration and anger at the people.

but it's not even questionable that it's immoral.

I can't afford to negotiate with these people.

You're talking hundreds and thousands just to try

What these developers are doing isn't illegal.

Some of their buyers just don't feel they are very upfront about it.

Katie and Lindsey say that when they went to buy their homes,

sales representatives didn't make much of an effort to explain

to them the difference between leasehold and freehold.

In fact, they were told it was as good as buying freehold.

So what we thought we'd do is go on the Bellway website, and

it's not just Bellway that does this, but we thought we'd go

on their website to see what mention they make.

And the only thing I can find is this very simple two line

distinction between what a freehold and a leasehold is.

Nowhere on the website are they saying that they are planning

Taylor Wimpey say that as of this year, the vast majority

of its new developments will be freehold only.

But many other developers still do this.

Beth Rudolph is from the Conveyancing Association.

You've had a little look at some of the paperwork.

here with regard to Katie and Lindsay in their

So, when Katie's obviously bought the house, from what it looks

like, she's had the right advice from the conveyancer, but it

would appear that the conveyancer was unaware of the intentions

And you've got to have sympathy for the solicitors and any

conveyancer in this position because this is a new phenomenon.

It's not something that has happened in the past that developers

would routinely be looking to sell on the freehold.

She came into the showroom, they sort of said to her,

Isn't there an obligation on the part of the developer

and also the solicitor, who the developer recommended,

Anybody marketing a property is covered by the consumer protection

Which means that if there is something that would impact

their decision-making process, then they should be advised of that

And this is a really important point.

The reason being that actually, it's too late at the point they have

moved into the house and to find this out,

they view the property, before they've thought

about where they are going to put their sofa and how the kids

are going to get to school and all that.

It's not just developers that leaseholders can feel trapped by.

Luke bought his flat three years ago for ?150,000.

He'd fallen in love with this Victorian building

Little did he know he'd also fallen victim to a growing trend

for clauses that hike up ground rent, that's the yearly fee

a leaseholder pays to live on a freeholder's land.

Luke thought he'd pay ?250 a year, which is roughly

But six months after he moved, he got a bill for ?8,000 instead.

A small but important clause had been written into his contract

by his freeholder, potentially designed to be overlooked

On the face of it it just seems immoral and completely unethical.

And you read the contract as much as you could?

I think I read the contract about 50 times.

Certainly after I realised, and it didn't matter

the one paragraph in which this clause is contained,

The tenant shall be required to pay such annual rent as shall be ?1 less

than two thirds of the rentable valuable of the premises,

He's certainly not the only person to do this, but we've been told

about at least 20 similar cases where he's involved and he's

or not is not for me to judge, is Martin Paine.

Luke's solicitor had to pay Martin Paine ?7,000

Luke was left with what is known as a doubling clause,

something that's becoming increasingly common in the industry.

It states that ground rent is ?250 a year, backdated to 1990.

But it also says that that figure will double every ten years.

So, by 2020, he would be paying ?2000 a year.

By 2070, he'd be paying ?64,000 a year.

And by the end of the 190 year lease, there would

In total, over the course of the lease, ground rent would have

cost more than 1.3 billion on a flat costing just ?150,000.

What's your feeling towards Martin Paine now?

He's caused me quite a lot of stress.

I don't deal with him directly because everything goes

But I'm very aware that this clause was inserted into the contract

when they extended the lease for no other reason than his

There would be no reason he needs to do this.

Look at the wording of the clause, it is clearly

What we say to all the members of the Conveyancing

sure that if you are advising a client on these

be so tricky, that you run the calculation and that

you are entirely sure as to what that calculation is.

Because when you sit down with that and spend some time actually looking

at it, it becomes very clear that this is just an attempt

to dupe people into a very uncomfortable position.

What we've seen in a lot of these leases, contracts,

is this doubling clause, doubling of ground rent.

Is that something that you see a lot of?

And if you think what doubling the rent every ten years actually

means in investment terms, it means that the rent will be

A guaranteed 7% return is pretty good in this market.

So this is what has created these new investment vehicles that

are so interesting to, say, pension funds and other

People like Luke freely enter into these contracts

The allegation isn't that Martin Paine expects

people to actually pay these ridiculous sums.

It's that he's banking on solicitors to miss the clauses

This is the issue millions will recognise -

freeholders charging for services and repairs that

That's what happened to Scott, from London.

He and his neighbours were charged ?700 a year for gardening.

"Garden" in the broadest possible sense.

and I don't think I have ever seen a gardener here yet.

And they were charging us over ?700 a year for gardening.

They were paying ?11,000 a year to hire a doorbell system.

Each flat, it works out at approximately ?170

a year, so I was paying ?170 for my little doorbell there that no

one ever uses in today's world of mobile phones.

They were even paying hundreds of pounds for old light bulbs to be

removed, but the council does that for free.

So Scott and his neighbours fought back.

They used a law to force the freeholder to sell

So now they run the block themselves.

that we were losing ?40,000 to ?50,000 a year

in being overcharged for maintenance items

which were questionable at best and maybe not done at worst.

We decided that the only way this was going to end and to get these

people out of our lives and off our back was to

Which I would recommend to any leaseholder out

The world changes once you are the freeholder.

And that was the best bit of advice we ever got

Whether buying from a developer or a private freeholder,

leaseholders can find themselves involved in expensive legal battles.

It all comes down often to the kind of legal advice they receive.

But with more and more leaseholds coming onto the market every year,

campaigners say it's more regulation which is really needed.

James Lowman reporting. This man in Carshalton says that he found out

the lease on their terraced house was sold to a builder, no right of

refusal for them, it was a complete surprise. A few years later when our

mortgage was complete, we decided to buy the freehold and succeeded,

total cost ?16,500. No protection for house owners in England in this

respect. Different rules and the rest of the UK do give greater

protection, so it is the English leasehold rules which need reform.

Your experiences are well come after ten. We will talk to more homeowners

finding themselves in stressful situations because of the issues we

have raised in the film, and a Conservative MP who wants to make

some of what we have reported on today against the law. Barbara

e-mails on a totally different subject, she was on holiday in

Greece and started feeling very sick. I went to Dr Vicky had a tummy

bug, it was only a small island, but amazingly he had a scanner, which is

quite something. He announced I was pregnant with twins at the age of

36. I had to go back to my weighty husband to tell him I didn't have a

tummy bug, I was having twins. -- my waiting husband. He almost fainted.

Almost! Here is Rebecca at 34 weeks with twins. Not that big, I think

you will agree! Thank you very much. Here are the Lawson family with

their newborn twins. Let me find their names. One of the twins is

Tatum and one is Tallulah. The mum says we have been very lucky and

fortunate through the pregnancy and the only advice I can give is use

all the support that is around you. And Gabriella, 12 days before giving

birth to twins. Looking very classy! If you don't mind me saying so. Keep

those coming in. Still to come, the number of students applying to study

nursing a university has dropped by nearly a quarter after grants were

axed. We will ask what impact that has on the NHS. And the latest on

the lawyer who brought murder and torture claims against British

soldiers who could be struck off today. He is accused of drumming up

false claims against British military personnel during the Iraq

war. MPs have voted overwhelmingly in

favour of triggering Brexit. Parliament has approved

the legislation which gives the Prime Minister the power

to start negotiations Theresa May will detail her plans

for leaving the EU later, MPs will once again debate the bill

in parliament next week. A ban on scheduled night flights

at Heathrow is being proposed as part of plans to build

a third runway there. Ministers will set out

proposals for the ?22 billion expansion today -

including the regulations which the airport will

have to comply with. Opponents and supporters

of the plans will be given 16 weeks from today to put

forward their views The Church of England have admitted

that allegations of physical abuse against a former friend of the

Archbishop of Canterbury should have been reported earlier. The

Archbishop says that although he worked with the barrister, he was

not part of his inner circle of friends. 10,000 fewer people applied

to train to become nurses last year compared to 2015. The figures from

UCAS show a drop of almost 25%. They also show that overall university

applications from UK students fell by 5%. And that is a summary of the

latest BBC News. Here's the sport. Thank you very

much indeed. It was a mixed night for both

Manchester clubs who were in Whilst Manchester City

were comfortable 4-0 winners over West Ham

with a goal for Kevin De Bruyne to a frustrating goalless draw

with Hull that now leaves them Peter Crouch has joined an exclusive

club as he scored his 100th last night in a 1-1

draw with Everton 15 years after he scored his

first top flight goal. And to celebrate, he reprised his

signature celebration, the Robot. It's back and looking as good as

ever! Rangers were well beaten

by Hearts 4-1 last night. Despite defeat, they stay second,

but fourth placed Hearts are still some way off third placed

Aberdeen. Jamie Walker with the pick

of his side's goals. And a sorry enter England as they

lost their final Twenty20 International with India by 75 runs

in Bangalore, losing eight wickets for just eight runs. It means they

have lost the Test series, the one-day series and the T20 series as

well, not their greatest end to a tour in India. That's all the sport,

more for you later. It's 9:35am. Thank you.

Nearly 30 years ago, a young woman called Helen McCourt

The local pub landlord, Ian Simms, was convicted

But to this day, he's refused to tell anyone

Helen's mum Marie wants the law to be changed so that murderers

will never be allowed their freedom until they reveal where the bodies

Tomorrow, MPs are due to debate Marie's proposals

after she gathered a petition with more than 400,000

A little while earlier, Marie McCourt told me how

out that her daughter's killer could go on parole.

Last year, Victoria, when I realised he was being put in an open prison,

I asked for a retesting of the DNA. That DNA was tested by Merseyside

Police, and it has now come out that it is 1.1 billion that he is Helen's

killer. The scientists and that will not go above 1.1 billion because

they say he is the killer and that is the end of it. So if he refuses

to reveal where his victim is, what he is doing, Victoria, and what

these kind of killers are doing, is they are keeping hold of their

victim like a prize. They have taken our loved one loop is lives, and the

law is letting them sitting prison and look forward to a day of

release. What impact does that have on you, Marie? It leaves me in hell.

I would rather be in the prison and looking forward to parole then being

a mum not knowing where my daughter's remains are. Not being

able to give her that last respect of a proper funeral, where her

friends, family, loved ones and the people in the village can go and

place flowers. I know you live in a fairly rural part of the north-west

of England. I think you feel that when you are out walking, you are

always wondering if Helen's remains are buried beneath where you walk.

That is correct. No matter where I go, and it's not just around our

village. We have got lots of country areas or around, and I believe that

Helen Grant be somewhere fairly close to home, but it could also be

within a 50 mile radius, because we know that on the evening that she

disappeared, this man spent no time in his home, he was out in his car

probably looking for places where he could hide her remains, and her

clothing was found over 30 miles away. His clothing was found

somewhere else, 28 miles away. So we have a vast area to look at. We

don't know whether we have the canal searched, two bodies were found of

young men who had committed suicide, that was recovered, Helen's body was

not found. If you could talk to Ian Simms, the man who killed your

daughter, what would you say to him directly? I have written to him,

Victoria, three years into his sentence, and I pleaded with him in

the letter, please just let me bury my daughter. You have two young

children yourself, let me give her a proper burial, and you won't hear

from me again. That's all I want. And he refuses. He sent quite a

nasty letter to me saying you and your Christian family, and he

believes in a knife and I and two through two is, but he didn't put

the last line, but he -- eye for an eye and eight tooth for a tooth. And

I think the judges have seen these letters,, and he has been behind

bars for 30 years. He's Marie McCourt's MP,

and he's been helping her campaign. Samantha Gillingham's mum Carole

went missing in 1985. Her husband, Sam's father,

was found guilty of Carole's murder, but he's never told anyone

where her remains are. Sheila Dolton's son Jonathan

disappeared in 2002. His body wasn't found and his killer

ended up being released from prison and died,

so Jonathan's remains Explain to me why a parole board

can't say to a murderer, you aren't going to be released until you tell

us where the body is? It can. When Marie came to see me, I thought hers

would be an isolated case, but the Home Office tell me that since 2007

alone there have been 30 such murders we know remains have been

found. I am bringing forward a bill to try to change the law, but I have

asked the Government to as the parole board to review its

guidelines, and I hope they can come forward with a proposal to ensure

that this is the case. But you don't need to change the law. The parole

board could make that a condition of release. I think we need to have

this on statute. It is an issue of justice and how Parliament treats

victims in the country. We have to put victims first, the anguish and

torment of Marie and the families of those who have been murdered we know

remains have been found is unspeakable beyond words, and if we

as MPs in Parliament can't do something about that, then I don't

know who can. There are up to 70 families in Marie McCourt's

situation. Yours is one. Your mother disappeared from your home in

Bournemouth in 1985. It was your dad who was found guilty of killing her.

I can't imagine what it is like for you as the daughter knowing that he

has the answers to your questions, but he won't tell you. He would say

anything, and I think the key thing with regards to this is it is not

actually a requirement for somebody who has been convicted of a crime to

have to admit to that crime. The parole board have said they cannot

actually break it down, but they have said he could be released, and

you feel my father's tariff was 15 years from the date of his first

conviction, that ended in 2012, and then you start to feel that you are

being put under pressure, so my father had his first oral parole

hearing in 2014,... Why do you feel under pressure? You are under

pressure because in the past five years, he has been DCAL categorised

from a category B prison to a category C. They inform you of that

decision. You can ask for that not to happen, because then you are on

the long slippery slope, and from my point of view and from the other

families' as well, you feel that you are having to try and do everything

to say to people that just because that tariff has been met, please do

not think that justice has been achieved. The conviction on itself

is not enough. And if I could add as well, we had that first oral parole

hearing in August 2014, and within six months, they told us we were

having a paper hearing, and we would not be told of that decision until

September 20 15. I don't think they quite appreciate the stress that it

put asunder. Let me bring in as Sheila Dalton, thank you for talking

to us. Your son's Kello took the information of where his body was

left to his grave, and Helen is law would have invented that from

happening, would it? I believe it would, yes. Mr Martin only got a

very short sentence anyway. We had always thought seven and a half

years was not long enough. But we were very angry when, after only

four years, he had applied to go to open prison, and we were told that

we probably wouldn't be able to prevent it. That sent a flurry of

letters off to try and re-establish the fact that we hadn't got the

body, had they realised we still hadn't got the body, and we still

want it. So it was a question after them for quite a few letters to just

try to keep him in, which is what we felt. It made us feel quite bad, and

even guilty, that we should even be contemplating this thought in the

first place, but that's what we felt. And you spend time looking for

your son? Yes. We still do. And I think most people will

absolutely understand why that is so important to you, but can you just

spell it out for us. Give us an insight into what that is like. The

fact that you still feel the need to do it?

Because if we don't, no one else will. And the whole situation will

be unresolved. It is as simple as that. It is an unresolved issue

which is unacceptable. You cannot be on your deathbed not having tried

everything you possibly could to find it. Is anybody high up at the

Home Office listening to you in terms of typing this up, changing

the rules, changing the law? This is not a party political issue. It has

support from right across the House of Commons. It would appear to be a

no-brainer issue. It had an unopposed first reading, it is

having a second reading tomorrow, the indications are positive and I

hope that in the coming weeks and months we can change the law. I

think the dignity, the tenacity of Sam, Sheila, Marie and her family,

should serve as an inspiration for MPs to get behind this and make

things happen, and I hope we can do it. Thank you all very much, very

grateful for your time. A human rights lawyer who brought

murder and torture claims against British soldiers faces

being struck off today after Phil Shiner has not been present

at his disciplinary tribunal on grounds of ill health,

but has admitted several counts of acting without integrity

and of making use of a middleman to drum up business in Iraq -

a practice that is banned. Although he denies charges

of acting dishonestly, or of misleading the courts, Mr

Shiner has acknowledged that in all likelihood, he will no longer

be allowed to practise law. You might remember

that this programme has been following the story

UK soldiers accused of historic abuses in Iraq - many

A couple of gentlemen came to my room and they said my name.

And they said, I am arresting you on suspicion

We were accused of allowing him to drown to death.

And the other three people who were there, the other three

Iraqis accused us of beating them up and bricking them and, you know,

Over the last decade, hundreds of British troops have

faced accusations of abuse against civilians alleged to have

Many of these allegations have been of the most serious kind,

In recent months, this programme has reported

on the experiences of soldiers facing these allegations.

They interrogated me for hours and hours.

When I came home, I thought, this can't be real.

There's no way this has happened to me.

The untold cruelties of this process have destroyed my life.

It's broken me, and the army just do not seem to care.

The place I went to that time was worse than any

A large number of these allegations of wrongdoing

were brought forward by one man, Phil Shiner of Public Interest

Lawyers, who used millions of pounds of public money

How many Iraqis did we actually kill in UK military facilities?

Shiner came to public attention as the lawyer

for the family of Baha Moussa, an Iraqi civilian who was beaten

Since then, his law firm, Public Interest Lawyers,

has brought forward more than 2,000 cases, including the allegations

at the centre of the Al-Sweady inquiry, which claimed that British

soldiers had mutilated and tortured Iraqi detainees after the battle

of Danny Boy in southern Iraq in May 2004.

I don't know whether people were killed, but something went wrong.

And we hope the inquiry will find out what went wrong.

He also brought cases to the attention of the Iraq

But in 2014, the Al-Sweady inquiry ruled that the allegations

were based on deliberate lies by witnesses.

All the most serious allegations made against British soldiers have

been found to be wholly without foundation and entirely

the product of deliberate lies, reckless speculation

And of the thousands of cases brought before Ihat, not

Phil Shiner's firm closed down in August last year

after being stripped of legal aid funding.

And Shiner has now admitted to serious misconduct including

paying a middleman in Iraq to find civilians who may want to pursue

complaints against British soldiers, but he denies other allegations

including acting dishonestly and misleading the courts.

Responding to Phil Shiner's admissions, one of the accused men

that we have spoken to previously told this programme that:

Phil Shiner has been the driving character behind this De Lima

biddies witchhunts. He has deliberately ruined the lives and

careers of soldiers for his own greed. The military need to accept

their role and allowing him to do this.

In a ruling expected later today, Phil Shiner faces being struck off

faces being struck off by the solicitors'

This programme has made sustained efforts to contact Phil Shiner

for comment on this case, but he has not responded.

In Plymouth is the Conservative MP Johnny Mercer,

who made a film for us on this issue last year.

who represents a large number of soldiers accused of wrongdoing.

This is an extraordinary case. What is Phil Shiner accused of doing? It

is unique. In the legal profession, we obviously have standards we have

to abide by an ethics as well. And the bar is set very high stock and

it is high for a reason, so the public have confidence in the legal

profession. He seems to have run completely over any regulations and

not abided by them. Without a doubt, he has looked at an end result and

pre-empted that without proper evidence. I have acted for the Armed

Forces for over 25 years. I have covered situations from Northern

Ireland, Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan and Gulf War one. I have no evidence

that the military acted in an improper way. They are absolutely

courageous clients. So for him to pre-empt the terrible war crimes and

use evidence that has been proved to be fraudulent is in my view a

national disgrace. It should not have been allowed to go on as long

as it has. Not only that, the MoD need to look to themselves, because

they actively paid Phil Shiner to bring evidence to the Iraqi

historical abuse cases. With taxpayers' money. Taxpayers' money.

We have been calling for a framework of support for those who were

accused, and have the MoD put their resources into supporting those

people. Many of these cases would have been found out far earlier.

Johnny, you have campaigned on this for a long time. Today's judgment is

going to be significant. It will be, but it is just the start. This is a

huge process that has gone spectacularly wrong and it has

ruined some of our best people. Phil Shiner is just one of a few. I will

continue to pursue him and his type in the same manner that he pursued

these individuals over a number of years. Are the MoD partly culpable?

They helped pay Phil Shiner to collect evidence. I think they are,

yes. There is no doubt that Phil Shiner abused the process, but that

opportunity was afforded to him by the Ministry of Defence. And this

process just went on for so long. When I took this up a year ago, we

have seen real change over the last year. But the processes that have

gone on before then are just appalling. I am surprised with the

oversight and some of the decisions that were made within the MoD,

particularly by civil servants, who seemed to not understand the bonds

that require people to fight. You can't ask people to snitch on their

mates. You can't conduct surveillance. You can't build a case

that is not there. We should have been more robust against this from

the start. Hilary Meridith, if Phil Shiner is struck off today, what

will be the indication for the soldiers you represent who are

accused of abuses? We don't know what will happen to the cases. There

is no plan in place at the moment. If Mr Shiner is struck off, as I

suspect he will be, he may go on to face criminal cases as well, because

without a doubt, some of the activities he was involved in were

fraudulent. Will Ihat be disbanded? I think the credibility of Ihat is

now shot to pieces, so I think it should be disbanded. Bear in mind

there have been no prosecutions either. You claim there is no doubt

that Phil Shiner has been fraudulent. If there is to be a

criminal investigation, that would be for them to search for the

evidence for that. Donny, there are still cases pending. If I put you to

give me a yes or no answer, are you expecting the MoD to effectively

scrap all the cases against British military personnel when it comes to

alleged abuses in Iraq was back no, because I am clear in my mind that

the British Army, like any organisation, has its challenges. No

doubt there were isolated cases of malpractice, and we absolutely have

to root them out, otherwise how can we go around as a professional army

upholding the rule of law with individuals like that within our

midst? But this is the unique failing point of this organisation,

that it has even failed to prosecute them, while ruining all these lives.

There is a case for looking at the cases that this individual has

brought and whether or not we can strike them out. Is that evidence

tainted if we pay for it? But that is for the courts rather than the

MoD. The MoD needs to make sure we support the people going through

this process. Thank you very much, Johnny Mercer and Hilary Meridith.

On Monday, we're holding a special programme looking

We'll be looking at the problems it's facing and asking

If you work in the NHS - a doctor, a nurse or a consultant -

or you're a patient with recent experience, we'd love you to take

E-mail [email protected] to register your interest and one

It is going to be windy over the next few days. It is windy already

in Devon, where we have gusts of 55 mph, and there will be rain at

times. The strongest winds through the English Channel and the Irish

Sea. Close to the coast generally, we are looking at gusts to gale

force. They will whip up some large waves as well. A lot of cloud

around, with bands of rain moving across us at times. But there will

be blackness in between. After a mild start to the day, the forecast

is for a mild day. But if you are in the wind and rain, it is not going

to feel special. Overnight, we carry on with the breeze and showers. We

shouldn't have a problem with frost or fog. Tomorrow, we have this area

of low pressure. It is not a named storm, just an area of low pressure.

If you look at the spacing between the isobars, that squeeze tells you

where the strongest winds will be. It looks like through the Bay of

Biscay and France. Having said that, across southern counties, we are

going to have quite a bit of wind. Tomorrow, the rain moves up from the

south-west, drifting north eastwards. Ahead of that, a lot of

dry and bright weather, but the cloud is building ahead of the rain.

Now let's focus on the wind. It is going to be very windy tomorrow,

with gusts up to 70 miles an hour across the Channel Islands and

exposed parts like the Isle of Wight, where we could have gusts in

the Needles of 70 miles an hour. Along southern coastal counties, the

gusts are more likely to be 60 miles an hour. Inland in the south-east,

we are looking at gusts of 50 miles an hour. Those gusts can cause some

damage. We could have small branches of trees, for example, or tiles

being moved and that kind of thing. Overnight, the rain migrates

northwards. Some of it will be heavy. We see a lot of rain across

Northern Ireland overnight. There might be issues with surface level

flooding. Down to about 200 metres County Antrim and down, we will see

some snow. On Saturday, the area of low pressure moves northwards. Then

another one takes a swipe at Southern England, but in between,

something drier and brighter. Hello, it's 10 o'clock,

I'm Victoria Derbyshire. Later this morning,

we'll get details of the Government's Brexit plan -

as MPs back Theresa May's right to start divorce

proceedings with the EU. 47 Labour MPs defy Jeremy Corbyn

by voting against it. So, can anything stop the Brexit

bandwagon? Labour say they would block it as questions mount over the

position of Diane Abbott who wasn't in the Commons for the crunch vote,

tobacco leader. -- to back her leader.

Also this morning, the new property trap.

How leaseholders are being legally ripped off and often paying

out thousands of pounds in unfair charges.

We can't buy it, and we can't sell. I don't know what we will do. It is

the biggest mistake I have ever made. It seems immoral and

completely unethical. This is an attempt to dupe people into a very

uncomfortable position. On the Sick List, students turn

their backs on nursing as a career, the numbers applying for courses

at university has plummeted by 25% after study grants were axed; we'll

take the profession's temperature. We will bring you the story in the

next hour. Time for the latest news with Ben.

Thanks, Victoria. MPs have voted overwhelmingly

in favour of triggering Brexit. Parliament has approved

the legislation which gives the Prime Minister the power

to start negotiations Theresa May will detail her plans

for leaving the EU today, A ban on scheduled night flights

at Heathrow is being proposed, as part of plans to build

a third runway there. Ministers will set out proposals

for the ?22 billion expansion today. Opponents and supporters have four

months to put forward their views The Church of England has admitted

that allegations of historical physical abuse against a former

friend of the Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby, should

have been reported years earlier. The Archbishop says that

although he worked at a camp where it's alleged the barrister,

John Smythe, physically abused boys in the 1970s he was unaware

of the claims at the time. 10,000 fewer people applied to train

to become nurses last year The figures from the university

admissions service UCAS show They also show that overall

university applications from UK An investigation for this

programme has found that some homeowners who thought they'd

bought their homes outright are actually caught

in complicated leaseholder deals. Some even discovered

the ground their property is built on is being sold for profit

without their knowledge. That's a summary of the latest BBC

News, more at 10.30. Thank you for your pictures. Some of

you like the fact that I am asking you to do this, and one or two

really hate it. It is a homage to Beyonce and her amazing picture of

being pregnant with twins, wearing a veil, in her underwear, as you do!

Here we have Bernadette with her twin sister in 1959. Absolutely

delicious. We have twins Thomas and Rob at nine years old. So this has

morphed into great pictures of your twins. This is Anthony as a kid with

his twin brother, the next one. And Anthony with his twin grown-up!

Thank you for those, thank you very much.

You have made a middle-aged woman very happy! If you want to get in

touch, use the hashtag Victoria Line Tube. An amazing picture of Leal, it

is like Beyonce, and I will show you that in the next half an hour.

Here's the sport with John. It was a mixed night for the

Manchester clubs last night. Manchester City are still some way

of lead leaders Chelsea after 44-0 win over West Ham. It is hard to see

how they are fifth when they play like this. Kevin de Bruyne with the

opening goal, and Gabriel Jesus with his opening for the club.

Comfortable in the end, but city remain ten points off lead leaders

Chelsea. It was a frustrated evening for Manchester United who drew 0-0

with Hull, Jose Mourinho complaining after this match that referees apply

different rules to him than other managers. He said that while

Liverpool's Jurgen Klopp was, lamented for his passion on the

sidelines, Jose Mourinho was told he would be sent to the stands if you

showed similar levels of emotion, and you could see his irritation in

his post match interview afterwards, which he walked out of.

What is your overall impression of tonight's performance? We didn't

score. If you don't score, it isn't possible to win. Their goalkeeper

was in marvellous form when you did get through. He was. What in

particular did you feel that the referee should have pulled the book

on? If you don't know football, you shouldn't have the microphone in

your hand. Not a happy bunny at all! It was a

special night the Peter Crouch last night, he scored his 100th Premier

League goal in his side's 1-1 draw with Everton last night. It was an

impressive performance as well from him, and having joined a select

group of players, only 26 have made it to 100 Premier League goals, he

reprised his signature celebration, the Robot is back! He produced it

before the 2006 World Cup, and having achieved that landmark last

night, it was back again and looking good as well.

How much have you been practising the Robot in anticipation of the big

moment? Not enough, by the looks of it! It was a little bit stiff. It

has been over ten years, I did do it everyday, but bit of nostalgia, I

pulled it out. I was pleased to get a milestone. He was looking pretty

good! Chelsea remain 25 points clear at the top of the premiership --

Celtic remain 25 points clear at the top of the Scottish Premiership.

Fourth placed hearts are still some way or third placed Aberdeen, Jamie

Walker with the pick of his side's goals in a cup double win.

And rugby union news, England head coach Eddie Jones has announced his

starting 15 to face France in their opening match of the six Nations

this weekend. England are chasing a record 15th win in a row, and will

see Marietta Roget start in the back row in the absence of Chris Robshaw.

Elliot Daly stars instead of Jack Nowell on the wing. The big weekend

to comfort Eddie Jones and his side. And that is all the sport but now,

more a little later. Thank you, John. Good morning, it is

seven minutes past ten. Are you one of those who's

bought your own home, but then it starts to become

a nightmare?Thousands of families who've bought leasehold properties

in England and Wales are discovering the homes they bought

are not all they seemed. Leasehold means you own the property

for the length of the lease agreement, it then reverts

to the freeholder. Freeholders own the property

outright, including From spiralling bills to five figure

sums to buy their freehold, many leaseholders say they feel

powerless and exploited. The Government says it's

about to announce radical proposals We played you James Longman's

full film earlier, Thousands of homeowners are having

the ground beneath them sold off To ease the housing crisis,

new homes are going up The new trend is for developers

to sell freeholds to A developer builds

a house, here it is. It sells that house

to Mr and Mrs Smith. But what it sold is

the lease to that house. A couple of years later,

the developer is then able to sell the freehold,

the ground that it's on, It's a way of making money

on the same house twice. And this whole business is worth

hundreds of millions of pounds every I had no idea that my home would be

used as an endless income Katie Kendrick bought her home

from Bellway developers. She was never told her

freehold would be sold off. Now she wants to buy it, the price

has gone from ?4,000 to ?13,000. It just doesn't seem

ethically right to me at all. You know, I'm not a cashpoint

for somebody else and I never realised that I could be

used as such. What Bellway are doing

is not illegal. Some buyers feel they weren't

clear about their plans. We asked them to comment

but they did not respond. Homeground, the company that acts

on behalf of the freeholder said its investors were UK pension

institutions which bought the freeholds as part of their very

long-term investment strategy. They said they were usually willing

to informally negotiate a price which can often save both time

and legal fees. Beth Rudolph is from

the Conveyancing Association. We asked her to look through some

of Katie's paperwork. So, when Katie's obviously bought

the house from what it looks like she's had the right advice

from the conveyancer, but it would appear that the conveyancer

was unaware of the intentions Anybody marketing property is

covered by the consumer protection Which means that if there

is something that would impact their decision-making process then

they should be advised of that I feel guilty for my family that

I've made that wrong decision. It may not impact on me

in my lifetime but you buy your home to give your children

something, you know. It's a massive burden

to leave for your children. For Katie, this is a property trap

from which she still doesn't We can now speak to Louise O'Riordan

who recently bought a new build house as a leasehold

property in Bedfordshire. Piers Gibbon, leaseholder

from East London. Sir Peter Bottomley,

a Conservative MP. Rico Wojtulewicz is from

the House Builders' Association. And Daniel O'Doherty is a solicitor

who can help us make sense of some Some solicitors and conveyancers

don't come. Louise, did you know you were buying a leasehold property? We

did know that it was going to be leasehold, but we didn't know what

that meant. We were told by the sales people that the land was owned

by the local college, and therefore that it was safe land, that it

wouldn't be sold on, that was the implication, that wasn't actually

what they said. But I just found out at the weekend that they own the

land, the developer. But it is a 499 year lease. It is, so hopefully I

won't be affected by any downfalls, but I am powerful over the amount of

rent and how often they increase it and by how much. What is the grand

rent at the moment? At the moment, ?200 a year. It does increase with

RPI, but I don't know how often, that isn't clear in the contract. If

it wasn't clear, did you ask? Did the solicitor asked, did anybody

ask? No, we were first-time buyers, and we were relying on the solicitor

to point out anything that we should have been aware of. And nothing was

flagged, nothing at all. We thought we had nothing to worry about, and

at the moment, we are worried that this issue is emerging, we are just

finding out about our situation now, so we don't know the full details

yet of how negatively we might be affected, or positively. But we

could end up with a house we can't sell on, we could end up with

negative equity if we want to buy the freehold, it might be way too

expensive for us and put us in negative equity. There are so many

unknowns. It is stressful. And it shouldn't be. Everyone is a

first-time buyer wants, and they are normally dealing with developers who

are in this business in the long term, and I say to them, what is

your reputation, and what is your bank balance? And that is what they

are doing, watching their bank balance. On the 27th of April, two

major developers had their AGMs, Taylor Wimpey and persimmon, and if

they are still trying to defend the scandals, their shareholders will

revolt. Why do you say it is a scandal? Let's take the habit of

selling houses is leasehold when there is no reason to. If they own

the land, no has should be sold as leasehold. Number two, no house or

flat should be sold with grand rent from a reasonably high level

doubling every ten years. That is an increase of 7% per year. Some

solicitors don't realise compound interest, but they ought to, and if

I bought a house as a first-time buyer and wanted to sell it after

seven years to move somewhere else, and the solicitors for the incoming

purchaser said, don't do this, you will find that your ?200,000 house

is only worth ?100,000 because of these owner is ground rents. And one

last point, the grand rent doesn't buy anything, so we know people who

charge a peppercorn. One of the companies we spoke to says that by

doing it this way, it raises up to ?500 million a year in capital for

developers to build badly needed homes. That is complete rubbish. It

is just making a cash machine. And you are laughing, Pieres, why? It is

hilarious. It doesn't buy you anything, it is rent for nothing,

classic wealth seeking behaviour by wealthy property developers. They

take money off me for nothing, they graciously allow me to breathe the

air inside my flat, but not much else. But you chose to buy it? I

did, I went in with my eyes wide open because my girlfriend and I

looked at the London market and realise that if you want to buy in

London, often those are the only ones on the market, so you have to

buy a leasehold. We accept that there are some drawbacks to that,

but when you get into them and you realise, this is legalised scandal,

a ridiculous rip-off. So in what way have you been ripped off?

We are charged by the freeholder for ground rent of ?250 a year.

The freeholder is allowed to employ their choice of insurance company to

ensure the property. It is only when you do the most basic internet

search that you realise that the same names are appearing on the

boards of directors. They don't tell you, you have to do the work

yourself. I can have become an unwitting expert in something I

never cared about until I found out I was a victim of a rip-off. The

management company has the same people involved in different

businesses, all charging a little bit extra every year for what they

then don't do. The without naming names of companies, because we need

to get a right of reply from dozens, you say that by working together in

the way they are, they are making even more money. Yes. We are 250

flats in three buildings in a nice gated community and we love it. But

when you look at the total amount leaving our little village, ?1.25

million is leaving our block and going off somewhere in Uxbridge to a

couple of PLCs. So we look at our block and we see things falling down

and not mended and we are thinking, for ?1.25 million a year, where is

my Jacuzzi? Where is my valet parking? We also don't know what

commissions they are taking on the insurance. Oh, yes. When I rang the

insurance company, I said something like, it looks like you are taking a

backhander. And he said, you have to be careful with such accusations. We

are independently regulated. I said, sorry, that was rude of me. It was

only later that I found out that they shared directors with the

manager and the freeholder. So it looks like a backhander. You

represent householders from small businesses to the multi-million

pound developers. You are not coming out well in this. Well, we represent

small and medium enterprises. Some of them will build up to 250 homes a

year, but it is not a model we are used to and it is not a model that

businesses put forward, and the reason is reputation. And not just

reputation for making sure your business is well received, it is

make sure you get repeat business in the future. Many people come to our

developers and say, we want your hands on these sites. If -- this

isn't a new trend, it is just the volume of developers building new

homes, so it is coming to light. That is the real problem for us. We

have discussed regulation. We always believe in good regulation. If

measures have to come by up, then they have to come about, but

overregulation is a problem for our sector. So just be clear what it is

you are suggesting in terms of the door to make it illegal, when you

own the land, to sell it as leases? Three things. Firstly, banned the

sale of leasehold houses if the freeholder is available. Secondly,

get transparency. If people will not do it in public, they shouldn't do

it at all. Once they get the lot of publicity, a lot of them are going

back fast. The third thing is to change the law so that you build

commonhold rather than leasehold, which means the freeholder of the

development passes control of the managing agent to the leaseholders

themselves. Does that sound like overregulation? Sun sounds sensible.

I would say that sometimes that requires a management company to

take control. In the small and medium enterprises, we like to take

that leasehold because they can maintain the gardens. But that

should be the leaseholder's decision, not somebody asking for

the money. Daniel, you are a solicitor. Solicitors and

conveyancers don't come out of this well. They are not reading these

contracts properly. Firstly, I am from a firm who are part of the

conveyancing association, who have been lobbying for change. Change to

get members to read the contract is properly? Changed to the

conveyancing system as a whole, which includes changes to leasehold

law. For example, with leasehold flats, which are subject to the

leasehold reform housing and urban development act of 1993, for a lease

extension, the legislation requires that the lease is extended by 90

years. But the peppercorn ground rent becomes the ground rent and

that lease, so why should it be any different for freehold premises? But

do you accept that there are some solicitors not working on behalf of

their clients? There is good and bad everywhere. We do a full report for

leaseholders. What does that mean? Well, I do lease extensions. But

what is a full report? Is there a half report? Provisions in the

lease, what the ground rent is now and what it is going to be. Who is

required to ensure the building, what the repairing obligations are.

You are specialists. You talk about lease extensions being set with the

ground rent at virtually nothing. The man and injuring Parliament road

new leases extending them, but Dublin went back to when the lease

was first granted in 1950. People could be hit with a grant in ?1000.

They complain and then told to sue their solicitor. But the lease is

written in such a way that you have to be a very experienced solicitor

to find these terms in all the verbiage. And you need money to do

the selling. Some of these terms are so unfair that they should be

unenforceable, and then those who created them lose out a lot. I would

just say that the way we deal with work like this is, my department is

not a conveyancing department. So if there is a leasehold element to the

conveyance, that gets passed over to my department, which is a specialist

department. That is how it gets dealt with properly and the clients

are fully aware of what they are committing too. You want government

to act, don't you? I think it needs to in certain areas. What would you

have done differently, knowing what you know now? This is it. There

needs to be more transparency. We were not made aware it by the

solicitor or the developer that the leasehold was not available. We

thought the land was owned by somebody else. Had we known all of

this, we probably would not have bought that property, we would have

gone outside that area and found something cheaper that was freehold

that we could have more control over. At the moment, we are

thinking, are we even better off in a home that we own? We might have

been better off renting. That might have been cheaper in the long term.

We don't know what to do. We have only just established our position

and it has come as a big shock. You said you are happy where you are. We

love it, but we had to get together a campaign to find out what our

rights work with solicitors. We needed to find out that we have a

right to manage and to buy our own freehold. Before we got the people

together and realised that we can exercise these rights, we were

utterly powerless. We had a very visual demonstration of how

non-powerless we are now when we had a meeting with the management the

other night and for the first time, all three blocks walked in together

to that meeting. You could tell immediately from the body language

that these people know their rights. They are in the last chance saloon

at the moment. While hoping they will realise that publicity is going

to be dangerous and will start behaving like this and business

people. The leaseholders partnership are charity. Let them know and if

you want to seek help, look on their website. Ask your MP to get

involved, because the government is going to move and we can move a long

way. Good luck and thank you. We're holding a special programme

looking at the state of the NHS. We'll be looking at the problems

it's facing and asking If you work in the NHS as a doctor,

nurse or a consultant, or you're a patient with recent

experience, we'd love you to take It's in central London

on Monday 6th February. Email [email protected]

to register your interest and one Our political guru Norman Smith

is at Westminster. They had that massive vote last

night in favour of starting the whole Brexit process. Part of the

reason there are confident is because Labour have said they will

not block it. One of the striking things this morning is that we have

just had this massive historic vote, and yet much of the attention is on

the Labour Party. Last night, we saw three more Shadow Cabinet members

resigning because they couldn't back Mr Corbyn's stands. We saw ten

frontbenchers defying him and refusing to vote for Brexit. We saw

his party whips, the people who are meant to enforce discipline and

ensure that his will runs, even three of them defied him. No wonder

Labour are not in a position to mount any opposition, because they

are profoundly divided, albeit the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell on

the Today programme this morning was try to save the divisions were not

really that bad. The irony is this. When we get past

article 50, our party is willing and capable of uniting to protect our

country. Under this leader? Under this leader, and this Tory party was

split apart. The nature of Jeremy Corbyn's politics, the consensual,

mutual respect politics, will be the one holds our party together.

One further twist to the Labour story. Diane Abbott, one of Mr

Corbyn's closest political allies and part of the inner sanctum,

wasn't in the Commons last night to vote. People say she was ill, she

had a migraine and went home. A lot of people are a bit suspicious about

that, frankly, and wonder if actually, she really did not want to

vote for Brexit and she wasn't prepared to back her leader. In

other words, she pulled a city. I suspect that he will have been

fuelled by these pictures of Diane Abbott in Westminster a few hours

before the vote, looking pretty OK. Have a look. What President Trump

shows us, is that there is such a thing as a effective

counterterrorism strategy, but there is also such a thing as a

counter-productive terrorism strategy and it is kid to everybody

now that banning people from seven majority Muslim countries, plus

serene refugees from coming into the US... You'll agree you can see that

Diane Abbott doesn't look too picky. Why this matters is because if Diane

Abbott did decide not to vote for Brexit and to defy her leader, that

would suggest that the split and the doubts about Jeremy Corbyn now

extends not just through the Parliamentary party and into the

Shadow Cabinet, but right into Jeremy Corbyn's inner circle. Well,

thank you very much. Still to come: Have you ever had

a conversation with someone And why the number of students

applying for nursing courses has dropped dramatically. Now the latest

news. The government is preparing

to publish what it calls a substantial white paper on Brexit,

building on the plans set out MPs voted overwhelmingly last night

to give the Prime Minister the power to start negotiations

with European leaders. Dozens of Labour MPs

ignored an order to support A ban on scheduled night flights

at Heathrow is being proposed, as part of plans to build

a third runway there. Ministers will set out

proposals for the ?22 billion Opponents and supporters have four

months to put forward their views The Church of England has admitted

that allegations of historical physical abuse against a former

friend of the Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby,

should have been reported years The Archbishop says

that although he worked with the barrister, John Smythe,

he was not part of his inner 10,000 fewer people applied to train

to become nurses last year, The figures - from the university

admissions service Ucas - They also show that overall

university applications from UK Beyonce's surprise announcement that

she's pregnant with twins has become The singer's announcement

that she and her husband Jay Z are expecting twins has been liked

more than 7 million times. That's a summary of the latest news,

join me for BBC Newsroom Many messages from you about the

situation with your lease. This is from Carol. I have lived on my

property for 32 years. In 2013, we heard that a neighbour had trouble

selling their property due to the legs are left on their existing

links. So I wrote to the Council, who called police, request in

purchase of the freehold interest in the property. They came back with an

offer of ?1000 plus counsel fees of over 500 quid. Unfortunately, I was

not in the financial position to buy it at the time. When I had said that

money, I wrote to the council again and received a letter telling me the

price had risen to over ?12,000 plus fees. Stewart as I have a situation

where I have a lease which I was not aware has only 62 years left. I just

want to make the lease back up to 99 years. They gave me a figure of 8000

plus costs. It means if I do decide to sell the property, a bank or

building society will not lend money to a buyer on such a short lease.

Sally says, watching your programme on ground rents and leaseholds, the

top part of my garden is leasehold. The rest of the land our house sits

on his freehold. It's a small strip because the full width of the

property, which I believe was originally done this way in case the

road ever needed to be widened. Kirklees Council on it and when we

ate to purchase it, they asked for the sum of ?16,000! The grand red

was ?5 for 20 years and then went up to ?25 and is still rising -- ground

rent. Time for sport. It was a mixed night for the

Manchester clubs. Manchester City beat West Ham 4-0, but Manchester

United could only draw 0-0 with Hull. Vidic Wright scored his 100th

Premier League goal last night 15 years after he scored his first

top-flight goal, and he reprises his signature Robot celebration. Looking

as good as ever! Rangers were well beaten by hearts, 4-1, and despite

defeat they stay second, but fourth place Hearts are still some way off

Aberdeen in third. Jamie Walker with the pick of the goals. And Eddie

Jones has named his side to face France in the opening match rugby

union's six Nations Championship. Mario J is in, and so is Elliot

Daly. Jones hopes to oversee what will be the 15th straight victory.

And that is all the sport, back to you, Victoria. Thank you very much.

It is nearly 25 to 11. If you reveal to someone that

you have depression or anxiety, whether it's a friend,

or family member, colleague or boss, they should

treat you with compassion and understanding -

like they would if you told them For some reason there

are still people who think if you have a mental health issue -

you are suddenly weaker, or you can't do your job as well,

or can't function as a parent. And guess what - sometimes you can't

do those things as well as normal, just like if you broke your arm it

might impede your ability to do Mental health stigma

is still a big issue - a survey today by Time To Change

showed that almost 40% of people had been negatively treated as a result

of their mental health issue - potentially affecting

millions across the country. Of those who had experienced

stigma and discrimination, over half had lost contact

with a family member, a friend or a partner and 55% stop

socialising or going out completely Let's talk now to Clive Buckenham,

who says depression is like a constant companion that

made him feel isolated from his family and friends

and stopped him wanting to go out. Jenny Carter says she faced

discrimination at work and now only feels like she can be open

with other people with Oli Regan has bipolar

and says relationships and dating can be difficult

because of stigma about it. And director at Time

For Change, Sue Baker. Hello. We are going to have an open

conversation about mental health. It is amazing to me that there is still

stigma in 2017, Sue, but your survey suggests definitely. We have been

running Time To Change to ten years now, trying to change people's

attitudes to mental health problems. Attitudes have positively shifted

over time. Not with every body, though. Not everybody, but this

latest survey looks at people who have mental health problems who have

told us about them and say they still face mental -- stigma about

this. We're trying to encourage everyone to have a conversation

about mental health. If we do it collectively, we can make a big

difference, but this affects millions of us with mental health

problems, and our families and friends. Jenny, explain why you feel

you could only really talk properly and open and fully with other people

who have mental health issues. I kind of only really feel like they

understand because they have had similar experiences. If you don't

have that frame of reference, it is hard to be able to identify with how

someone is feeling. Not everybody. Not always. But I think for me it is

quite challenging to be able to let other people in that haven't

necessarily had that kind of experience. And can I ask you about

what sort of experiences you've had? When I was younger I had quite bad

OCD, but these days it is more depression and anxiety. And how does

that impact on your life? Sometimes it can be quite challenging getting

to work, and sometimes I don't really want to see people and I

isolate myself quite a lot. So it can be quite challenging. Oli, in

terms of your bipolar, you are meeting someone for the first time,

going to the cinema, going out for dinner, at what point would you tell

them? Or would you not? Years ago, when I didn't know much about it, I

wouldn't have said anything, but now I put it out there. So that people,

if they don't like it, if they think I am going to be weird or whatever

they think, they can make that discrimination then and I won't have

them in my life. And I think it is difficult when people are being like

that and being discriminative, because a little thing to someone

with mental health problems is massive. And people who don't know

what bipolar is, just explain it. Let's say your life is normally like

that, normal person, but with bipolar it is more like a

roller-coaster, you are up and down. So people who don't know what that

is, if you tell them, what you think they are thinking of you? A bit

wary, I think. It's the same as what you said. My main friends are the

ones that do suffer with mental health problems as well, because the

ones that don't have been negative towards it and said the wrong

things, like, sort yourself out, that kind of thing, and they can be

said Robert Ritter someone who was trying to be strong as they can, --

and for someone to say that to someone who is trying to be as

strong as they can, that is to rob a . Tell us about your depression and

how that led to your feelings of isolation. It was a gradual process,

I went through a period where I started to withdraw Froome

colleagues at work, became quiet at home, and my wife suggested to me at

one point, maybe you are suffering with depression, and I laughed it

off, but it wasn't until I had my first panic attack that I had a

moment of clarity and I thought, you are not well, you need to see your

GP, and I was diagnosed. But I feel the stigma that is attached to

mental health, once I had the diagnosis, I started thinking,

people will think I am weird now. I am some sort of bad person or

whatever. And that made me feel really isolated, which in turn

started generating feelings of shame as well, and so it almost

immediately starts making you withdraw, and it is a really lonely

experience. So in terms of squashing the stigma forbid, we have people

like Andrew Flintoff and Jeremy Paxman and Rebecca Front, all sorts

of high profile people talking about mental health issues. How much is

that helping, do we think? I think it is helping a lot, especially

recently, because it wasn't really talked about, especially the older

generation before my generation. They are the ones who stigmatise it

the most because they don't have any knowledge of what it is like to feel

like you have a mental health problem or to deal with on a

day-to-day basis, the things that someone who is normal would do for

someone with mental health problems, that is massive, and people don't

get that. But now with Time To Change, and mental health awareness

days, it is definitely changing, for the better, and it is making it a

lot easier to talk about things. Do you still find sometimes that you

are having to say to people, it is an illness, it is not just they

can't be bothered to get out of bed that day. It is interesting. It

definitely helps having high profile people including politicians talking

about it. The first FTSE 100 chief executive talking about it, the

chief executive of WH Smith is talked about his partner's bipolar.

We need to see a lot more about that in all walks of life and all

communities. We need to see people talk about it and open up. At the

end, what we want is an open, Survation, we want people to seek

help earlier and not be afraid to seek help, and it is helpful but we

are starting to a brace mental health in the way that we embrace

physical health. They shouldn't be a stigma attached, so we are making

progress. Is that the only way to get rid of the stigma, to keep on

talking, on TV, on radio, with your friends? It is about talking? I

definitely think it is, and I found when I started being open about the

illness, so many people would open up and say, they have had mental

health problems, family and friends have, and it is at that point you

start realising this isn't something that is weird or strange, it is

quite normal. I have said to people, do the supermarket test. When you do

your weekly shot, statistically, every fourth person you see has a

mental health issue. That makes people really start thinking about

it. But it is only that talking process that really gets people do

start being open. Victoria, you mentioned cancer. I went through

cancer last year, and one in three people diagnosed with cancer will

become depressed. I would suggest that three in three people diagnosed

with terminal illnesses or fighting something which could jeopardise

their life are going to have a psychological response, it is part

of being human. So why don't we screen everybody given an illness

like that with mental health issues? We should be screening. How much

would that cost? It costs more to not support people and the people to

wait longer to get help. Geese as I visited my GP yesterday. Having a

big NHS debate on Monday, and we know that resources are restricted.

I was informed there was nothing more that could be done for my

mental health. I have done all the therapy and had all the medication,

and I am still struggling. That has happened to me as well. Because

people think, you do this the six mills, 12 miles, a team is, and you

will be all right at the end of it, but for many people it is constantly

managing it. -- six months, 12 months and you will be all right for

is blue yes, there needs to be more of an attitude change to realise

that people go through periods of wellness and illness, and it is

about managing it on a day-to-day basis, and it is not just giving you

some sessions of CBT and then you are fine, because two years later

you might be unwell again, and it is about having that constant access to

support, to be above to manage it. And mental health problems can be

episodic, so we have to get, in terms of stigma, we don't want

everyone to think that we are ill all the time, because we can do all

of those things and manage a mental health problem with the right

support of friends and family, which is why it is so tragic when you lose

that support, which is what the survey found. But it is important to

also recognise... I don't get that. Your brother, your mother, partner,

child, says I feel low and the rest of the family decide not to support

you any more? I don't get it. I think it is fear, not having the

confidence to deal with it all be supportive or fear of it. I think it

is the fear of the stigma. We have a well ingrained cultural stereotype