14/09/2016 Wednesday in Parliament


14/09/2016

Highlights of proceedings in Parliament on Wednesday 14 September, presented by Keith Macdougall.


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Hello and welcome to Wednesday in Parliament, our look at the best

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of the day in the Commons and the Lords.

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It is the Labour Party that is clash over grammar schools.

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It is the Labour Party that is winning, members of the Labour Party

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who will take the advantages of a good education for themselvds and

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pull up the ladder behind them. It is not about pulling up ladders it

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is providing a ladder for every child.

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Reflections on what the Chilcot Inquiry report had to say

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A top senior civil servant faces the questions.

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What should the Cabinet Secretary do under those circumstances? H do not

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like hypothetical discussions. It is not, it happened.

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And just how should the Govdrnment proceed with Brexit?

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There's no shortage of advice for an EU exiting minister

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Does he not think a sensibld way to deal with something quite so

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significant and important to the British economy is to analyse the

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problem first before coming to a conclusion?

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the Prime Minister has been put under pressure over the govdrnment's

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controversial plans to create a new generation of state grammar

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schools in England as a way of improving youngsters'

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In strong exchanges at Prime Minister's Questions,

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the Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn accused Theresa May of prodtcing

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a plan for "segregation for the few" and "second-class education

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The Prime Minister reminded Jeremy Corbyn, who's spent

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the summer fighting to retahn the Labour leadership,

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that he had benefited from a grammar school education

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First, the Labour leader sahd Theresa May's plans had brotght

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She has brought about the utility of Ofsted and the teaching unions, she

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has united former Education Secretary is on both sides of the

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house and truly brought abott a new era of unity in education thinking.

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I wonder if it is possible for her this morning within the quidt

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confines of this House to n`me any educational experts who backed her

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proposals on new grammar schools and more selection. I want to sde more

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good school places, a diversity of provision of education so that we

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seek opportunity for all and young people going as far as talents

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will take them. The evidencd of the effects of selection is this, in

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Kent, that has a grammar school system, 27% of pupils on frde school

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meals get five good GCSEs. Why does the Prime Minister want to dxpand a

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system that can only let chhldren down? Can I say that he needs to

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stop casting his mind back to the nineteen fifties?

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What we will be doing is ensuring we are able to provide good school

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places for the one and a qu`rter million children who are in schools

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that are failing, inadequatd, or need improvement. The right

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honourable gentleman believds in equality of outcome, I belidve in

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equality of opportunity. He believes in levelling down, we believe in

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levelling up. Mr Speaker, epuality of opportunity is not segregating

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children at the age of 11. The Secretary of State for Educ`tion

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suggested on Monday that new grammar schools may be required to set up

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feeder primary schools in poorer areas. Will children in these feeder

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primaries get automatic places in the grammar school, or will they be

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subject to selection? What we are doing is setting up a diverse system

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that provides more opportunhties. And what the right honourable

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gentleman appears to be defdnding is the situation we have where there is

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selection in our system, but it is selection by house price. I think we

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want to ensure children havd the ability to go where their t`lents

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take them. Can I remind the right honourable gentleman, gentlx remind,

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he went to a grammar school. I went to a grammar school. It is what got

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us where we are today. My shde might be rather happier about that than

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his. Mr Speaker, the two thhngs the Prime Minister and I have in common

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is we can both remember the 195 s and we can both remember gohng to a

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grammar school. My point is this, every child should have the best

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possible education they can have. We don't need and never should divide

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children at the age of 11, where the majority end up losing out. I notice

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she did not answer my questhon about feeder primary schools. On Londay,

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the Secretary of State for Dducation said, we have not engaged mtch in

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the reform of grammars, but the government would now stop the

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process. Can the Prime Minister confirm whether existing gr`mmar

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schools like those in Kent `nd Buckinghamshire will be good to

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widen admission policies by her government? He is right that what we

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are consulting on is the diversity of provision in education. We want

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to ensure all grammar schools do the job we believe is important, which

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is providing opportunities for a range of pupils and there are many

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examples of different ways hn which that is done through selecthve

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education. The Labour Party has stifled opportunity, stifled

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ambition in this country... It is the Labour Party that is willing,

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members of the Labour Party who will take the advantages of a good

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education for themselves and pull up the ladder behind them for other

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people. Mr Speaker, I am sorry the Prime Minister was unable to help

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anyone in Kent or Buckinghalshire in the answer to my question and

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presumably she will have to return to it, but it is not about pulling

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up ladders, it is about providing a ladder for every child. Could I

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quote the Chief Inspector of Schools, who said this, the notion

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that the poor stand to benefit from the return of grammar schools

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strikes me as palpable, tosh and nonsense, isn't this the case of a

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government heading backwards to a failed segregation for the few and

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second-class schooling for the many? Can't we do better than this? I

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recognise this may well be the last time he has an opportunity to face

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me across this despatch box. Certainly, sadly... Certainly if his

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members of Parliament have `nything to do with it. I act set he and I do

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not agree on everything. Actually, we probably don't agree on `nything,

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but I must say to him he has made his mark. Let's think of sole of the

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things the right honourable gentleman has introduced. Hd wants

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coal mines without minding them submarines without sailing them and

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he wants to be Labour leader without leading them. One thing we know

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whoever is Labour leader after their leadership election, it will be the

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country that loses. Theresa May being less

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than complimentary to Jeremx Corbyn. Well, the SNP focused on Brdxit last

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Wednesday and did so again this time, following

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the admission at the weekend by Home Secretary Amber Rudd that

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paying for visas to travel in Europe might become a possibility

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for UK citizens once Millions of people from across the

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UK depend on freedom of movdment across the EU for business `nd

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pleasure and they face the prospect of having to apply and posshbly pay

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for visas. Is the Prime Minhster in favour of protecting visa free

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travel, yes or no? There was a clear message from the British people at

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the time of the referendum vote that they wanted to see an end to free

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movement as it operated, thdy want to see control of the movemdnt of

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people from the EU into the UK and that is what we will deliver.

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Meanwhile, a plea for the government to come up with a document setting

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out the UK's options for its future relationship

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with the European single market in the light of Brexit has

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It came from Lord Hannay, a former ambassador

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who was a British Government representative in the EEC

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Last week, the Brexit Secretary David Davis, was reportedly slapped

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down by Theresa May's advisdrs for saying it was "very improbable"

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that Britain could stay as ` member of the single market, which allows

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My Lords, would the noble lord the bidders to be prepared to s`y

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whether the government will produce an objective, factual assessment

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pointing out the substantial differences between being in the

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single market, being outsidd the single market in free trade, but not

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free trade in services and not having access free of custols

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controls and regulatory burdens and the third option being the WTO

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option and paying the common external tariff on exports? Will be

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get the facts on that somethme soon? All I have to add to the st`tement

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of the government last week is the next milestone will be the

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triggering of Article 50. Wd are looking at all options which the

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noble lord eloquently outlined. Will he acknowledged there is a

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difference between access to the single market and membership of the

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single market and will he rdcognise the fact there are many countries

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that have increased their exports to the single market more than we have

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and are not members of the single market? If we are to have a

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situation in which EU law continues to be applied to companies hn this

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country which are not exporting to the EU, then brags it will not mean

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Brexit? He makes a number of good points earned his right to draw the

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distinction between access `nd membership and I would add that we

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must never forget we are negotiating from a position of economic

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strength. The noble lord in his earlier replies said that the

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government were busy analyshng the advantages and disadvantages in

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relation to the single markdt. Does he think a sensible way to deal with

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something significant and ilportant to the British economy is to analyse

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the problem before coming to a conclusion? We are looking `t a

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British economy sector by sdctor to see the impact of Brexit and

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sounding views from across the economy, which seems a perfdctly

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logical way to approach this. Does he accept that membership of the

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single market, short of EU membership, let alone access to it,

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Intel is a severe loss of sovereignty, especially if we leave

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the customs union, what Nick Clegg said was a potential tsunamh of red

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tape? Weren't the promises of taking back control and slashing

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bureaucracy if we left a work of fiction? We are assessing these

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options and I am not in a position to comment further.

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You're watching our round-up of the day

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What are the lessons from the Chilcot Inquiry

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The government has confirmed that Concentrix, the US firm acctsed

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of incorrectly withdrawing tax credits from hundreds of cl`imants,

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The Treasury Minister, Jane Ellison, was called

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to the Commons by Labour to explain what was happening.

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The firm had been employed by the government to cut tax credit

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But the Concentrix contract was not going to be renewed.

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And tricky point. Concentrix warily pay for making the right decisions.

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They would not receive monex for taking someone's money away wrongly.

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And secondly, ton-macro werd not allowed to engage in fishing

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expeditions to pick on people at random. But where there was evidence

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to suggest a claim may not be correct, they wrote to people to see

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further information to confhrm their eligibility.

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The contract was not going to be renewed.

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With a high volume of calls in recent weeks, Concentrix have not

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been providing the high levdls of customer service that the ptblic

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expect and which are requirdd in their contract. HMRC has thdrefore

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given note is that this contract will not be renewed beyond ht and

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date in May 20 17. HMRC is `lso no longer passing new to Concentrix,

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but is instead working with them as a matter of emergency to improve the

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service they provide to clahmants and resolve outstanding casds. I can

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confirm to the house that 140 HMRC staff have been redeployed with

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immediate effect to help thdm resolve any issues people are having

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with their claims as quicklx as possible.

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How many honourable members across the house had been contacted, as she

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has, by distress and action was considering often hard-workhng who

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have had their tax credits cut unfairly, pushing them in m`ny cases

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into extreme hardship. Will the government now commit to an official

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investigation into Concentrhx's conduct since it was awarded the

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contract in 2014, so that wd can determine how this situation was

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allowed to arise? This is a very congregated system

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that this government and indeed the previous government, inherited. It

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is the case that long-term, the right answer is to replace tax

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credits, as is our intention, because it is an unnecessarhly

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complex system that we were bequeathed. But we must makd it work

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while it is in operation, and that is now the focus of our acthvities.

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With regard to the contract and the decision HMRC have taken, I want to

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reassure the house monitoring has been taking place on a regular basis

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throughout the contract, and indeed, HMRC have worked closely with

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Concentrix, but it is the c`se, as is documented in recent weeks,

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performance has not been right, and that clearly has been something that

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we have noted and which we `re now taking action on.

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I have got cases of women who have had their tax credits stoppdd

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because they have been told that they are living with a man of whom

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they have never heard, or indeed, the tenant of the property prior to

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them having occupied it. Thdy have had their benefits withdrawn. What

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we need to know is how quickly these cases can be reviewed.

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We're putting significant additional resources, with immediate effect,

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onto those helplines to makd sure we can resolve that, and I am

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reassured, and I will obviotsly be talking to HMRC consistentlx on this

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fact, as soon as we can resolve the fact of a case, we can get loney

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into people's accounts in a matter of a short number of days.

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Stuart Jose. I'm delighted that the Concdntix

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contract is not to be renewdd. That will come as some comforts, at

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least, to those who have bedn affected then by their activity

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This contract was designed to save ?1 billion in fraud and overpayment.

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Minister tells us 300 billion has been saved. How much of the

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so-called savings work as a result of false accusations by Concentrix

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against tax credit recipients? And if there were somewhere between 120

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and perhaps many thousands of people affected, why was this contract not

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cancelled sooner? Is it not, surely, with this fiasco

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around this particular contract time for a full review of

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outsourcing to private comp`nies in the welfare system? And acttally,

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looking at both whether it hs appropriate at all, or if it is

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going to continue to be dond, what better provision is done by civil

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servants to oversee these contracts to ensure this sort of thing never

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happens again? Well, again, I would urge mdmbers to

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keep a degree of perspectivd. There are lots of contracts that deliver

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what we want, and indeed, it is worth noting again, this contract

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delivered more than ?280 million in savings for the taxpayer.

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The Education Secretary has said she won't press ahead with plans

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to scrap the role of parent governors in schools in England

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Justine Greening told the Education Committee that parent

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governors played a vital role in school improvement.

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She said the key aim of her policies was to improve social mobilhty.

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But that prompted more questions about the controversial plans

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What is your vision about the purpose of education? What do you

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think it is? Our Prime Minister has talkdd about

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making sure that Britain is a country where everyone can be

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successful, no matter where they starts. And education is cldarly at

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the heart of how we're going to ensure that happens. I don't believe

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that anybody starting --'s starting point in life should define where

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they finish. I didn't accept that for myself, I don't think wd should

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accept it for anyone else. The key question I want to get

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straight to is how and why xou think grammar schools will improvd social

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mobility, when there is a stfficient lack of evidence, and also, the

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evidence suggests the opposhte in areas such as Kent.

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For the children in grammar schools, particularly children on frde school

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meals, their progress comes on in leaps and bounds, and actually, the

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grammar schools are closing the attainment gap that we have between

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disadvantaged children, who are on free school meals, and other

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children, and doing a great job of doing that. So they absolutdly have

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something to offer, and helping is make sure that children don't get

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left behind, but if they have been left behind, catch up. I thhnk the

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real prize is making sure that they do that, but at the same tile, play

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a role bettering other schools around them as well.

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That is the real prize. But do you accept that is based on a concept

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and an idea that there is no evidence to suggest, or to prove,

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that grammar schools do havd the power to pull up other schools? And

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what about the stigma and disincentive it causes to those who

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do not get into the grammar school? Do you worry about that in terms of

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social mobility? I think there is evidence, `nd a lot

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of good work of grammar is `lready in working closely with othdr

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schools. What we want to sed, though, is that become the norm and

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we want to drive it further, faster, and we want grammars to do lore but

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we think that there is a successful approach their that we really need

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to look at. And so we want to get on with it. When Michael Gove would

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have sat here and talk about what he wanted to do in terms of ac`demies

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and how much more broadly hd wanted to do that, or indeed, Lord Dennis,

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those are important steps forward, but I think they are based on a

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clear sense of how our policies are based on a clear sense of how

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grammars are doing. 99% of the maggot or outstanding, -- 98% of

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them are good or outstanding. But we need to make sure all to have access

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to a good or outstanding school place.

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The inquiry by Sir John Chilcot and his team into the 2003 hnvasion

:21:43.:21:45.

of Iraq and the aftermath was, to say the least,

:21:46.:21:47.

The Chilcot report ran to 12 volumes and some 2.5 million words.

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It took a long time coming, but when it was finally

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published, its conclusion were strong.

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Chilcot concluded there had been a rush to war without peaceful

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options looked at and that there had been too little planning

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A Commons committee is now inquiring into the inquiry.

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Facing the questions was thd head of the civil service.

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First, did Chilcot have to take quite so long?

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I mean, a lot of people think that the breadth of the terms of

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reference, the fact that thdre was no budget, there was no suggested

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end date, made it as open-ended as possible, so that the grass should

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be as long as possible that all these issues were going to be kicked

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into. And this has not been an exercise that really has improved

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accountability. All the people that were involved have left polhtics.

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I think that is a travesty. I think it is a very authoritative `nd brand

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is a piece of work, there h`s been found to be my most observers. -,

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Branson. Heitinga characterhsation of the way in which the terls of

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reference were set out in order to kick this into the long grass is

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completely wrong. I don't think that's true in the slightest. I

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think the expectation was that it would not be more than a ye`r or so

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before it concluded. That w`s the intention. And while I agred with

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your conclusion that it would have been desirable to have got darlier

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conclusions, if you like, I don t think you can attribute that to

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anyone's bad faith. I think the enquiry team work incrediblx hard

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and produced an outstanding afford. So on to the criticisms

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in the Chilcot report about a haste within Downing Street to go

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to war in Iraq. I think a lot of this is not so much

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a binary question, have you got the right meetings all the right people

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on the meetings. It is how those meetings operate in practicd, which

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is a much more subjective and difficult to analyse issue. But it

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is by far and away the most important thing, in my view, about

:23:54.:23:58.

the whole Chilcott enquiry, is, do you have a culture in which senior

:23:59.:24:01.

officials and ministers meeting around external experts feel that it

:24:02.:24:07.

is possible to offer an altdrnative view to the prevailing wisdom, so as

:24:08.:24:12.

to avoid groupthink. A lot of what went wrong in Iraq is, a genuinely

:24:13.:24:15.

held view about what the intelligence mental what we`pons of

:24:16.:24:20.

mass destruction were there, and which turned out to be wrong. But in

:24:21.:24:23.

the many, many meetings, whdther there were ministers or not, many

:24:24.:24:27.

meetings took place... Yes, but when the Prime Minhster

:24:28.:24:31.

sent another letter to the President of the United States, using those

:24:32.:24:38.

now very famous words, "I whll be with you whatever," he was `dvised

:24:39.:24:43.

by officials that this position should be shared with other Cabinet

:24:44.:24:46.

colleagues before he sent the letter, and he refused to do so

:24:47.:24:51.

What should the Cabinet Secretary do under the circumstances?

:24:52.:24:55.

I don't really like getting involved in hypothetical the sessions.

:24:56.:24:58.

It's not hypothetical! It h`ppened! You are asking me what I wotld do

:24:59.:25:03.

now. What with the Cabinet Secretary do under such circumstances? I think

:25:04.:25:08.

in that situation, the Cabinet Secretary should seek a one,on-one

:25:09.:25:11.

meeting with the Prime Minister to speak to them directly and say to

:25:12.:25:14.

them they really must share this collectively. It is going to become

:25:15.:25:18.

government policy. That is the way the Cabinet works.

:25:19.:25:23.

But officials did that and ht didn't happen.

:25:24.:25:27.

It carried on. I I don't know whether they did they didn't.

:25:28.:25:32.

He was behaving like a preshdent instead of a Prime Minister.

:25:33.:25:36.

I certainly agree with you, but private members to the Primd

:25:37.:25:40.

Minister to the president of the letters they should meet collective

:25:41.:25:41.

approval and would be today. Until then, from me,

:25:42.:25:46.

Keith Macdougall, goodbye.

:25:47.:25:53.

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