Browse content similar to 28/04/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Follow the story of Britain's exit from the EU on BBC News. | :00:00. | :00:27. | |
Order, order. Tim Lawton to move the motion. I beg to move that this | :00:28. | :00:35. | |
House considers post office closures. I'm grateful for the | :00:36. | :00:38. | |
opportunity from the business committee to discuss this very | :00:39. | :00:44. | |
important subject. The number of members this morning suggest it is | :00:45. | :00:47. | |
something of an important subject and who would have thought that with | :00:48. | :00:53. | |
an election on, as well. I will try and keep my comments as brief as | :00:54. | :00:59. | |
possible. If members want to intervene rather than speeches, I | :01:00. | :01:02. | |
will try and take some interventions. It would not be my | :01:03. | :01:07. | |
intention to take a response at the end, as well, if that would help on | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
the timing. I appreciate in previous debates on this subject as recently | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
as November led by the gentleman for Luton North aired many of the issues | :01:17. | :01:20. | |
I am sure members will want to repeat again today. There is concern | :01:21. | :01:26. | |
about possible delays to future plans for the post office caused by | :01:27. | :01:32. | |
the ensuing election. And of course there were outstanding concerns from | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
that debate in November which I think the minister was rudely cut | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
off from in divisions, where again it would be good to get some clarity | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
today. Two Terrace, firstly my own local post office closures, I am | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
sure everybody will have one they would like to air, but also the | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
bigger picture of the long-term sustainability of the whole post | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
office network. Can I first put on record that I think we should | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
recognise the good work that has been done by the Government since | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
2011 where the network has been stabilised. The number of closures | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
has actually been substantially reduced. The subsidy for the network | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
has been managed down from 210 million in 2012 to some 80 million | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
this year, due to flexibility under some of the new arrangements. There | :02:21. | :02:26. | |
are outside as well as downside. 200,000 additional opening hours | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
every week, many of them at weekends in post office normally closed. Some | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
?2 billion has been invested in the network plan since 2012. In contrast | :02:37. | :02:42. | |
to previous years, were effectively half the network branches were | :02:43. | :02:44. | |
closed in the previous ten years or so. I lost more than half of my post | :02:45. | :02:51. | |
office, sub post office branches in my constituency. When I became an MP | :02:52. | :02:56. | |
in 1997 there were nearly 20,000 branches, now down to about 11,000 | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
500. There are encouraging signs but worrying signs if all of a sudden | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
you are faced with the closure at post offices in your own area. When | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
the branches are being closed we promised the Crown post of this were | :03:11. | :03:18. | |
sacrosanct and would remain the main flagship of the high street post | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
office. They are important parts of the local community, the post office | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
branches and the Crown post offices. Local businesses, retail and other | :03:28. | :03:30. | |
small businesses heavily rely upon them. If you do not go to the high | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
street use the post of as you do not use some of the neighbouring shops. | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
They act as a community hub. There is like mine with a high pensioner | :03:41. | :03:43. | |
population are particularly well used by the elderly population. And | :03:44. | :03:49. | |
by those from disadvantaged backgrounds, especially those who do | :03:50. | :03:51. | |
not have their own conventional bank accounts, as well. For those reasons | :03:52. | :03:58. | |
the post of his remains well used. Something like 17 million customers | :03:59. | :04:00. | |
a week. I will give way to the honourable member. I thank him for | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
giving way and congratulate him on obtaining this debate. Is it not the | :04:06. | :04:08. | |
case government needs to look at these services post offices provide, | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
because they are losing those? And also the return they get on | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
providing the service? I would like to come onto that. Why is the post | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
office not growing instead of retrenching? In 2016 they announced | :04:22. | :04:27. | |
the closure of 31 Crown post offices, branches. Even though the | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
Crown offices are now breaking even having made a 46 million loss four | :04:33. | :04:39. | |
years ago. Some other post offices have not been converted into the new | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
type of offices and their future is still uncertain. In January this | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
year a further 37 Crown Post offices were identified for closure, | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
including the last two remaining ones in my constituency in lancing | :04:53. | :04:58. | |
and sure. It caused huge worry and concern. -- in my constituency. | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
There were a lot of demonstrations across all parts. What was | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
particularly disrespectful is the first I found out about it when a | :05:08. | :05:10. | |
constituent called me to ask what I was doing about it. The post office | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
did not even have the courtesy to let the sitting MP and counsel no. | :05:16. | :05:23. | |
They went through -- know about it. I was assured... Companies like WH | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
Smiths have taken on more than 100 of the franchises and everything is | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
supposedly working well. There are other chains that have been taken on | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
including I gather Bargain Blues, an off-licence with some 30 branches. | :05:40. | :05:46. | |
Some people may be concerned about the appropriateness of that. I was | :05:47. | :05:50. | |
told both of those branches were not profitable and that is why they were | :05:51. | :05:58. | |
going to be franchised out. The lancing branch in my constituency, | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
apart from one very small sub post office right on the fringe of the | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
village of Lancing looks after a population now of 27,000, for one | :06:08. | :06:13. | |
post office. Not surprisingly the queues are frequent. It is the | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
second largest business mark in the whole West Sussex with 220 companies | :06:19. | :06:21. | |
employing more than 3000. The villagers last almost all of its | :06:22. | :06:27. | |
bank branches. We were told we would lose the banks and we do all those | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
services at the post office, so there is no concern anyway. If those | :06:33. | :06:38. | |
branches are not making a profit it suggests they are not being run very | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
well. It is certainly not true lack of usage and popular demand by the | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
local population... Today I have just been told one of those branches | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
is going to be transferred to a nearby convenience store. A | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
convenience store which is much smaller than existing post offices. | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
It has only operated since 2013. There will be extended opening hours | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
on Saturday and Sunday and new disability access. It on the | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
downside, nobody believes this store is big enough to house a replacement | :07:13. | :07:19. | |
Crown post office. It will have fewer serving positions. There are | :07:20. | :07:22. | |
serious concerns about queues already. It will not have the | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
biometric enrolment service used for home office applications. There are | :07:28. | :07:32. | |
concerns about staff transfer. We know from the post offices that have | :07:33. | :07:39. | |
converted so far only ten out of 400 staff have come across. They are | :07:40. | :07:46. | |
often going to minimum wage jobs. There are questions about ongoing | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
training for those staff now working in non-Crown post offices. They | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
tended to have a big turnover of staff as having the experience, as | :07:56. | :08:00. | |
well. In many of the shops staff hours are cut. After initial | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
promises about extended opening times, they tend to retrench. What | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
happens if this model fails, as well? Some 8000 offices are now in | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
convenience stores. The experience of convenience stores has seen a 4% | :08:15. | :08:21. | |
reduction in hours of the members of staff since the National Living Wage | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
came in. Some 13% of businesses face challenges about evaluation of | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
business rates, as well. As we have seen from the Dalton's website there | :08:31. | :08:38. | |
are 705 post office branches for sale. There is a lot of change and | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
churning in the sector. Longer-term questions about the viability and | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
sustainability of the new arrangements obviously arrive. There | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
is another issue because both of my post offices are co-located with | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
sorting offices. Not run by the post office, but by Royal Mail. But | :08:58. | :09:00. | |
conveniently next to the post office. Again, experience has been | :09:01. | :09:07. | |
without the anchor partnership tenants, the sorting offices are | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
relocated to out-of-town sites. Far less convenient for people to go and | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
get their deliveries from. Especially when you deal with an | :09:16. | :09:17. | |
elderly population who might not be so mobile. We are going to have a | :09:18. | :09:24. | |
consultation, and extended one, because of the election, on my post | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
office, but we know there is not a single consultation that has | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
overturned any of the proposals to transfer these post offices. I fear | :09:33. | :09:38. | |
that it is something of a token exercise, other than the | :09:39. | :09:41. | |
measurements of an access door which might be changed by a few inches, or | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
the sweet counter might be relocated because it is in the guide dogs, or | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
whatever. Frankly it is a token exercise. I am aware citizens advice | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
do a good job overseeing the body and I am aware some of their | :09:57. | :09:59. | |
research suggested in the new format that has been some improvement in | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
some cases to access and service, as well. Overall the fears are the | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
queues get longer, the timings take longer, the services are less | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
consistent. You're dealing with different and new staff. It is just | :10:15. | :10:21. | |
not as good as it used to be. It brings me to my second point, Sir | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
Edward. Where exactly is the post office going? Everything the post | :10:26. | :10:31. | |
office have done, the statistics I mentioned in terms of making it more | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
efficient, producing -- reducing losses and perhaps extending hours, | :10:36. | :10:41. | |
are based on retrenchment. Baker made policy that sees about others, | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
certainly the directly owned ones, getting smaller and offering fewer | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
services to customers. -- based on the policy. Fewer than 100 will be | :10:50. | :10:57. | |
directly owned Crown post offices. The financial services part of the | :10:58. | :11:00. | |
post office should be a big moneyspinner and is diminishing. At | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
the beginning of the year, 150 financial specialists were made | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
redundant. There was a specialist office in Lancing which was closed | :11:11. | :11:16. | |
earlier this year. The mortgage specialist advice they get, because | :11:17. | :11:19. | |
of their relationship with the bank of Ireland, gets a one off payment I | :11:20. | :11:26. | |
gather of just ?800 for creating mortgages and no ongoing revenue. | :11:27. | :11:29. | |
That seems to be selling themselves cheaply. They are caught in a | :11:30. | :11:35. | |
relationship until 2023. It does not sound profitable for the post | :11:36. | :11:38. | |
office. My question to the Minister, I hope she can enlighten us more, | :11:39. | :11:45. | |
why is the post office not making more of financial services in | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
particular given they are a trusted name, a presence on the high street | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
and at a time when conventional banks are disappearing from the high | :11:55. | :12:00. | |
street? I gather the revenue breaks down roughly some 47% as the revenue | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
from stamp sales, increasingly available to buy anywhere, then | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
there is government services for DVLA, fishing licences, these are | :12:10. | :12:16. | |
all being squeezed, the revenue from them has been reducing. There is | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
access to the current account banks as I have mentioned and banking | :12:21. | :12:23. | |
protocols have been sorted out so they can cross fertilise different | :12:24. | :12:26. | |
branches within a post office, which was a problem. Then the financial | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
services were again it seems to be a declining market for the post | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
office. Why are they not copying the example of the Challenger banks? | :12:35. | :12:40. | |
Where banks like Metro are making a really good fist of expanding into | :12:41. | :12:48. | |
these markets? Metro now has 915,000 customers, has taken ?8 billion in | :12:49. | :12:51. | |
deposits, has 110 branches and it is growing. Why are we not doing what | :12:52. | :12:58. | |
they have done in France, one thing we might want to copy from France, | :12:59. | :13:05. | |
with their bank founded in 2006, specifically as a tool to help | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
tackle financial exclusion? Now in 2016 it has a turnover of 5.6 | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
billion euros and a pre-tax profit of just over 1 billion euros. | :13:15. | :13:24. | |
A fantastic opportunity for the state-owned Post Office to be taking | :13:25. | :13:30. | |
advantage of changing markets and how we do our financial business by | :13:31. | :13:33. | |
somebody who is trusted, and is on the High Street but for some reason | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
not taking advantage of that. Why are they not making more of quick | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
and collect services? Everywhere I go, there are shops on the High | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
Street for people to collect their Amazon deliveries because they are | :13:46. | :13:50. | |
not at home to do it. The Post Office is already on the High Street | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
and surely could offer those services. 18% of Post Offices do not | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
have those facilities and they will not have them if they move to | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
smaller premises without the room to store and collect those parcels. The | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
overall commercial revenue of the Post Office has been virtually | :14:08. | :14:11. | |
stagnant in the last couple of years. So it is a great mystery as | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
to why the Post Office is not at this time expanding and becoming | :14:17. | :14:23. | |
more profitable, better for the taxpayer and for their customers, | :14:24. | :14:26. | |
rather than following a long-term strategy which appears to be based | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
on retrenchment and shrinking. Finally, questions I would like the | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
Minister to answer, what is the big game plan for the Post Office? The | :14:36. | :14:39. | |
network transformation programme will end by March of 2018 and 7,500 | :14:40. | :14:46. | |
traditional sub Post Offices will have been converted to the new | :14:47. | :14:52. | |
model. What comes in at first after March 2018 in terms of further | :14:53. | :14:58. | |
transformation and revenues? 85% of the public support the Government | :14:59. | :15:03. | |
continuing, the taxpayer continuing to subsidise the Post Office and not | :15:04. | :15:07. | |
just the obvious challenges facing Raul Post Offices were clearly there | :15:08. | :15:15. | |
will be a sparsity challenge. Are there any further reductions planned | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
in the next year? And also, as the Citizens Advice suggested, will | :15:21. | :15:24. | |
there be an automatic brake if 5% of branches announced they are to be | :15:25. | :15:29. | |
closed without breaking the access criteria which it is hard to do | :15:30. | :15:36. | |
anyway? The biggest question is, why is the Post Office not using the | :15:37. | :15:43. | |
current opportunities to expand, rather than retrenching? Especially | :15:44. | :15:46. | |
as it has the security of government backing for its revenues and is a | :15:47. | :15:53. | |
trusted name. In 2010 when the governing the promised to transform | :15:54. | :16:00. | |
the Post Office, it's... I am on my final sentence, Sir Edward. In 2010, | :16:01. | :16:09. | |
for a significant expansion in its banking services, in reality, I've | :16:10. | :16:12. | |
fear it has said -- failed to safeguard these measures as revenue | :16:13. | :16:17. | |
has fallen by 40% and income from financial services has been | :16:18. | :16:20. | |
stagnating. Closing flagship branches and getting rid of | :16:21. | :16:23. | |
experienced staff and putting counters at the back of the stores | :16:24. | :16:27. | |
is not a great plan for innovation which I think is what our | :16:28. | :16:30. | |
constituents want to see. Question is that this House | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
considers Post Office closures. I have a problem, 12 people are trying | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
to get in, so I will impose a four minute limit. If people intervene, | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
some people will not get in and I shall choose our most senior member | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
first. I am pleased to follow the | :16:50. | :16:52. | |
honourable gentleman, who has made some very valid points indeed. | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
Because of time, I simply want to concentrate on the willing whole | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
Post Office in the borough of Walsall. This is the second attempt | :17:02. | :17:11. | |
to do so. The first was in 2013, which led to an adjournment debate | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
at the time. The opposition in the town was unanimous foreclosure and | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
Nacho, as no surprise. Particularly in a place like other areas where | :17:21. | :17:28. | |
you do not normally get unanimous opinion. But I found no one in | :17:29. | :17:36. | |
Willinghall who wanted to see the Post Office closed. Then came the | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
Indian welcome news which said that the Post Office had changed and | :17:41. | :17:46. | |
instead of closure, it had been decided to retain and invest in the | :17:47. | :17:52. | |
local Post Office and it was part, listen to these words, part of | :17:53. | :17:56. | |
building a modern and profitable and sustainable network. The joy does | :17:57. | :18:04. | |
not last long with the Post Office management. And under the latest | :18:05. | :18:10. | |
closures, Willenhall is due to face the axe. The honourable gentleman | :18:11. | :18:16. | |
was right about talking about public consultation. I am all for | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
consultation. But as far as the Post Office is concerned, it is as much | :18:22. | :18:27. | |
consultation as in North Korea. It is as much of a choice like Henry | :18:28. | :18:36. | |
Ford said, you have any colour of my car, as long as it is black. So | :18:37. | :18:43. | |
there is no consultation. Indeed, when I received the original letter | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
stating consultation was going to take place, I explored it. I said, | :18:48. | :18:53. | |
if residents, long or they writes to me and make it clear they are post, | :18:54. | :18:56. | |
will it make any difference? The answer was quite clearly know and it | :18:57. | :19:02. | |
would be a question of consulting on the alternative, toilet facilities, | :19:03. | :19:09. | |
car parking and so on. But on the crucial issue of whether or not the | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
Post Office should close, a decision had been made and there would be no | :19:14. | :19:16. | |
change at all. So much for consultation. And what concerns me | :19:17. | :19:26. | |
is not simply the closure of the Post Office. What I have found is | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
that bank closure and Post Office closure tends to go together. | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
Whether it is the first Post Office or the bank is the case may be, and | :19:36. | :19:42. | |
it has undoubtedly such closures certainly when it also includes the | :19:43. | :19:51. | |
bank, an adverse affect on local communities. We had a demonstration | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
the other week, the union was involved. Elected representatives | :19:56. | :20:02. | |
and of course, the public. We were just outside Willenhall crown Post | :20:03. | :20:06. | |
Office, stating our opposition to the closure. What was happening | :20:07. | :20:10. | |
inside the Post Office? I will tell the Minister if she is listening, a | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
lengthy queue, no lack of business. Quite clearly, this is a Post Office | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
which is central in Willenhall but it does not seem to matter to the | :20:21. | :20:26. | |
Post Office or to the Government because the Post Office management | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
is acting under intense pressure from the Government and they should | :20:31. | :20:37. | |
not have any doubts about that. So I would say it is most unfortunate | :20:38. | :20:40. | |
what is happening. I will continue to do my best with other people in | :20:41. | :20:47. | |
Willenhall and with the unions to try and retrain the -- retain the | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
Crown Post Office, but the chances are slight. But I simply conclude | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
with these words, Sir Edward, I use the opportunity last time to have | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
the adjournment debate, to make The Voice of Willenhall heard in the | :21:02. | :21:05. | |
House of Commons, I do so today and hopefully... Order, order, Iain | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
Duncan Smith. Thank you very much indeed. To be | :21:11. | :21:16. | |
brief, I completely support my honourable friend who has initiated | :21:17. | :21:22. | |
this debate and he has made all the basic national points. And also, I | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
support much of what the honourable man has just said about his own Post | :21:27. | :21:32. | |
Office. I am here today because I have a Post Office, a Crown Post | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
Office, in my constituency in George Lane and the proposal now which was | :21:37. | :21:43. | |
announced that they were going to close that Crown Post Office, it is | :21:44. | :21:48. | |
as my honourable friend said situated ironically very close to a | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
sorting office, which I understand is now wants to shut the sorting | :21:53. | :21:58. | |
office as well. So we will have a serious blight in the area, the | :21:59. | :22:01. | |
people who want to pick up parcels will have to go either opt to North | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
Chingford which is some distance and the chat traffic is never easy, and | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
for the Post Office itself, we will have a calamity on the High Street. | :22:12. | :22:14. | |
It is worth reminding the Post Office and the Government that the | :22:15. | :22:20. | |
Post Office is part of that chain of integral elements in a High Street | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
which at the moment, bit by bit, is being removed. The banks have | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
disappeared. And in my area and many others, there is real Russia to get | :22:30. | :22:35. | |
rid of small industrial estates -- real pressure. They are vital to the | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
life of those communities. Because people who work in those industrial | :22:41. | :22:43. | |
estates use the High Street during the day to find their food and to | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
shop generally, so they have a continuous life. And this Post | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
Office is integral because it brings people into the community, | :22:53. | :22:55. | |
especially elderly people, to the Post Office, and they will do | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
shopping around that. So the High Street will continuously suffer from | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
this. And as my honourable friend has said, there are really much | :23:05. | :23:11. | |
better ways to do this. The absence of any sense of innovation inside | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
Post Offices about this is quite remarkable. When you think they own | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
some very prime sites. And these could be used in a flexible manner. | :23:22. | :23:25. | |
One of the things that when I was leader I wanted to do was to | :23:26. | :23:30. | |
persuade them to allow the organisation to use the Post Offices | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
as part of the average, which I will suggest is another thought the | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
Government needs to press again on because they were negative about | :23:39. | :23:41. | |
that and really did not want when the time that. The idea that you can | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
have terminals inside the Post Offices that people could receive | :23:46. | :23:48. | |
reasonable advice from people in the Post Office about claims to do with | :23:49. | :23:54. | |
their benefits, particularly the elderly, was an area where they | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
could easily be utilised for further government activity beyond the other | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
work they have done. And the banking side is another element. Clearly, | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
five years ago, they were told by the Government that if they came | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
back with positive responses about how to that banking facility, they | :24:13. | :24:15. | |
would be hers reasonably. It took a year to return with no response | :24:16. | :24:22. | |
whatsoever. Only to turn around and said, they really did not think it | :24:23. | :24:25. | |
was at all feasible for them to do it. So all along, there has been a | :24:26. | :24:32. | |
negativity from the Post Office about any idea, any use of their | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
facilities for elements that they really genuinely could to increase | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
their revenue and become more flexible. And in my community, | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
nearly eight years ago, we lost a sub Post Office up the road in the | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
High Street and we were told, don't worry, the Crown Post Office will | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
take all that business. And now we find the Crown Post Office is about | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
to close, leaving us without any postal services in that area. I am | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
the community and the unions are absolutely adamant that this is the | :25:03. | :25:06. | |
wrong way to go and they must think again. And I think they have to be | :25:07. | :25:09. | |
more flexible and more reasonable, and I call on them to do just that. | :25:10. | :25:17. | |
Alistair Carmichael. I congratulate the honourable member for | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
contributing to this debate and to all his colleagues from the | :25:23. | :25:29. | |
backbench Business Committee. Post Offices and sub Post Offices are | :25:30. | :25:35. | |
central to the life of so many of our small, raw and village | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
communities. But that is very much the case and as we now see the | :25:40. | :25:45. | |
withdrawal of other services such as clearing banks from small | :25:46. | :25:51. | |
communities, that is a problem that will only grow. Maintaining a | :25:52. | :25:54. | |
vibrant and viable network of sub Post Offices across smaller and more | :25:55. | :26:00. | |
raw communities is now more important than it has ever been. In | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
my time in Parliament, I have seen a large number of Post Office | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
closures. Although whenever there is a structural programme of closures, | :26:09. | :26:10. | |
we generally do quite well out of it we generally do quite well out of it | :26:11. | :26:14. | |
and we do not see that many Post Offices close because we have a | :26:15. | :26:20. | |
small population spread over a large area of the rain. But what you have | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
seen is this constant process of attrition where time after time, at | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
see sub Post Offices closing temporarily because the person | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
running them is retired or has moved away or simply just got fed up and | :26:36. | :26:45. | |
who can blame them? There is one to open in Orkney, it has been a | :26:46. | :26:48. | |
Herculean effort to find somebody to take that on but it does show it has | :26:49. | :26:55. | |
possibilities if the community is willing, with the willingness of a | :26:56. | :26:58. | |
handful of people to make it work and it is still possible to achieve | :26:59. | :27:02. | |
that. It is very difficult to make a sub Post Office work as a | :27:03. | :27:05. | |
stand-alone business and for that reason, the two left are generally | :27:06. | :27:11. | |
folded into shops, garages, cafes and other places. This, I think, is | :27:12. | :27:17. | |
good for these businesses, but it does I think require a bit more | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
flexibility and sensitivity on the part of the Post Office. I think of | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
the example of the second largest town in Orkney which for years had a | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
stand-alone sub Post Office but when that was no longer able to continue, | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
it was moved into a baker's and general store where the community | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
just does not feel comfortable despite the best efforts of the shop | :27:40. | :27:48. | |
owner with people on one side of the counters the next somebody buying | :27:49. | :27:49. | |
their messages on the other. The Post Office needs to provide for | :27:50. | :28:01. | |
people willing to provide a service. In Orkney there is a great little | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
local shop which also includes the Post Office. They tell me they have | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
probably lost about one month of Post Office business because of poor | :28:10. | :28:15. | |
connectivity. The broadband connection that is necessary to run | :28:16. | :28:21. | |
a sub Post Office is so unreliable. That obviously has more to do with | :28:22. | :28:27. | |
BT open reach and the providers of the Internet services for the Post | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
Office is and their ability to speak to each other. It is an example of | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
one area where if the Post Office took a more proactive role in | :28:37. | :28:40. | |
supporting the sub postmaster 's and mistresses, they could make a real | :28:41. | :28:47. | |
difference. A small country shopping Orkney talking to BT will get | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
treated like a small shop. A big organisation like the Post Office | :28:53. | :28:54. | |
would be listened to and taken much more seriously. In that practical | :28:55. | :29:01. | |
sense, they would be able to support people who are providing one of the | :29:02. | :29:04. | |
most important services the communities I have been privileged | :29:05. | :29:09. | |
to represent have been for years and for that reason I hope the minister | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
will take to the Post Office management the message that should | :29:14. | :29:17. | |
be their priority. Richard Bacon. Pleasure to serve under your | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
chairmanship. I congratulate the member for East Worthing and | :29:23. | :29:24. | |
Shoreham airshow in securing this debate. -- in securing this debate. | :29:25. | :29:34. | |
This is a geographically central area I represent where 10,000 local | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
residents, more than twice the number of people on the electoral | :29:39. | :29:41. | |
roll the time will come Royal Anglian Regiment home after their | :29:42. | :29:48. | |
tours in Afghanistan and Iraq. It is at the heart of the community. And | :29:49. | :29:53. | |
in particular at the heart of not only the current geographical | :29:54. | :29:58. | |
centre, but even more at the centre of what will be the regenerated area | :29:59. | :30:06. | |
with the project, a ?3 million regeneration, which includes 1.6 | :30:07. | :30:14. | |
million, ?1.65 million of Heritage lottery funding. Part of the scheme | :30:15. | :30:18. | |
is to relocate some facilities in the town including the tourist | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
information office further north from where they are now, away from | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
the supermarkets on the fringes and towards the centre of the town. The | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
proposal to close the Crown Post Office cuts completely against this | :30:32. | :30:38. | |
project. It is no WH Smith has taken an interest in taking on, has | :30:39. | :30:41. | |
expressed an interest in taking on the franchise, but the WH Smith | :30:42. | :30:47. | |
branch here must be one of the smallest in the country, going up | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
very narrow steps, through a narrow door, in fact two either side of the | :30:52. | :30:54. | |
shop window but they are not remotely suitable for disabled | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
access and nothing that could be done would make a serious | :30:59. | :31:01. | |
difference. When you get inside the footprint of the store is very | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
small. My local district council has itself invested ?400,000 of | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
taxpayers money in the heritage Triangle project. Paragraph 2.32 of | :31:11. | :31:16. | |
the South Norfolk local plan refers to a need to protect primary | :31:17. | :31:20. | |
shopping centres, including specifically the Heritage Triangle. | :31:21. | :31:25. | |
The proposal to transfer the Post Office to the WH Smith branch, apart | :31:26. | :31:31. | |
from the problems of accessibility further to the south, would put the | :31:32. | :31:34. | |
Post Office on the wrong side of town to the detriment of public | :31:35. | :31:37. | |
investment in restoring the old town centre. It would also mean many | :31:38. | :31:41. | |
public events such as the welcome home parade I referred to would take | :31:42. | :31:47. | |
place instead of the background of a vibrant public building which is | :31:48. | :31:51. | |
heavily used and it seems surprising to me and other members have made | :31:52. | :31:54. | |
this point that it is not possible that possible for it to be | :31:55. | :31:59. | |
profitable. I find it almost impossible to believe, frankly. It | :32:00. | :32:01. | |
would mean public events take place including the annual Remembrance Day | :32:02. | :32:05. | |
parade against the background of a redundant building, as there is no | :32:06. | :32:09. | |
word on what the counters would do with the building. It would have a | :32:10. | :32:17. | |
damaging effect by counteracting a significant public investment in a | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
project specifically aimed at retiring -- providing the town | :32:23. | :32:25. | |
centre. The current proposal by the Post Office to relocate is in the | :32:26. | :32:34. | |
wrong place and wrong premises and against the trend of local public | :32:35. | :32:37. | |
investment aimed at securing regeneration in one of our finest | :32:38. | :32:41. | |
market towns dumber which has some of the oldest town records in the | :32:42. | :32:46. | |
country. -- market towns, which has some of the oldest town records in | :32:47. | :32:51. | |
the country. It should have a successful Crown Post Office at its | :32:52. | :32:54. | |
heart. I hope the Minister will take these points to the Post Office and | :32:55. | :32:58. | |
not only explain the point of my honourable friend about a more | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
proactive approach but there are certain offices where their | :33:04. | :33:06. | |
proposals are wholly unsuitable. We need and deserve something better. | :33:07. | :33:13. | |
Sir Edward... The move of the motion was absolutely right in his | :33:14. | :33:16. | |
thoughtful speech when he said there would be a repetition about many of | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
the issues but also we would concentrate on the local area. Post | :33:21. | :33:27. | |
offices are the heart of our community and vital for businesses | :33:28. | :33:30. | |
and local communities themselves. The Isle of Anglesey, the beautiful | :33:31. | :33:35. | |
Isle of Anglesey is well-known to the member for Chingford, I know. It | :33:36. | :33:41. | |
has a market town. In 2014 the Post Office tried to close it down and go | :33:42. | :33:46. | |
out to franchise. There was no suitable premises. Nothing has | :33:47. | :33:50. | |
changed. Yet the Post Office has comeback repeating the same measures | :33:51. | :33:57. | |
to close it down. It is a purpose-built building, in the | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
centre of the town, it has access outside for buses and elderly people | :34:02. | :34:05. | |
to access. It is perfect. When we had a previous closure of the sub | :34:06. | :34:10. | |
post offices in the rural areas we were told this Crown Post Office was | :34:11. | :34:16. | |
the hub of the whole area. Now they want to close it down. The Post | :34:17. | :34:22. | |
Office is not listening. They need to start listening to local | :34:23. | :34:25. | |
communities, local businesses will stop what we are seeing across the | :34:26. | :34:31. | |
country is not just Post Office closures but mass bank closures, as | :34:32. | :34:36. | |
well. Local businesses are finding it difficult to do cash handling, | :34:37. | :34:40. | |
difficult to run their businesses and when the Post Offices closes the | :34:41. | :34:46. | |
Crown Post Office down, empty buildings in the areas were a lot | :34:47. | :34:50. | |
has been spent on regeneration is the legacy. It is | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
counter-productive. I know the Minister is as anxious as we are | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
that it does not happen. But we need a proactive government and proactive | :35:01. | :35:03. | |
Post Office. We need to look at innovation. We need to look at the | :35:04. | :35:09. | |
brand, improve the brand and improve the products of the Post Office. | :35:10. | :35:14. | |
There are great opportunities to do that. We are talking at a time of | :35:15. | :35:20. | |
mass bank closures. I suggest to the Minister she listens to the union, | :35:21. | :35:27. | |
who is proposing a post bank. It would help all loans for local | :35:28. | :35:30. | |
businesses in the area. We have been through a financial difficulty | :35:31. | :35:36. | |
globally and local banks were not facilitating local businesses in the | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
way they should. I do believe in a mixed economy. I do believe when the | :35:41. | :35:45. | |
Government has a stake in the Post Office as it does, it should | :35:46. | :35:51. | |
intervene in a semblance of all -- sensible way with a Post Office | :35:52. | :35:56. | |
bank. Because this is a market town in my constituency where people come | :35:57. | :36:00. | |
on a regular basis to do their business, and do their trade. It is | :36:01. | :36:05. | |
historic but modern, as well. They do it in a more digital way these | :36:06. | :36:09. | |
days. But again has the member for Orkney said, there are poorer | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
broadband facilities. We need to improve infrastructure and Post | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
Offices and start listening to local businesses and communities. Because | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
of these closures of Post Offices and banks are ripping the heart out | :36:25. | :36:30. | |
of local communities. The government rightly talks about localism. Local | :36:31. | :36:34. | |
people, local businesses, they do not want this closure programme. | :36:35. | :36:40. | |
They firmly oppose it. We as representatives, it is not the first | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
time I have stood up my constituency, we want the Post | :36:45. | :36:47. | |
Office to work. We wanted to work for our communities, for how | :36:48. | :36:51. | |
businesses and for the future. I urge the Minister to look closely at | :36:52. | :36:56. | |
the union proposals. Let's have a Post Office doing what it used to do | :36:57. | :37:01. | |
when I was a kid, at savings banks and help businesses in the | :37:02. | :37:05. | |
communities. That is the way forward and I hope the Minister will take | :37:06. | :37:08. | |
that on board on behalf of the people. I'm afraid -- I'm afraid | :37:09. | :37:14. | |
three more people are putting in, I have to reduce it again to three | :37:15. | :37:19. | |
minutes. It is a pleasure to follow the honourable member. I want to | :37:20. | :37:25. | |
raise three Post Offices in my area. The first one half opened for two | :37:26. | :37:35. | |
days a week and sadly the announcement was made on social | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
media before the consultation with the local community, but it is | :37:41. | :37:48. | |
welcome. But this town of Lostwithiel is going to lose its | :37:49. | :37:51. | |
permanent bank and it is having a mobile banking service for two | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
sessions a week and there is no bus service. I am asking the Minister | :37:56. | :38:00. | |
today, I am pleading with the Minister today, to do everything she | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
possibly can to make sure my constituents in this town, bereft of | :38:06. | :38:12. | |
vital public services, can have a permanent Post Office again. It is | :38:13. | :38:18. | |
an agent Stanbury town. It has a lot of antique businesses and local | :38:19. | :38:21. | |
businesses, privately owned as this is. They need a Post Office service. | :38:22. | :38:30. | |
-- privately owned businesses. With hours serving everybody in the | :38:31. | :38:34. | |
community, especially workers. In another situation we have had a | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
little bit of a reprieve where my late husband was a fisherman, in | :38:40. | :38:45. | |
lieu. We saw the Post Office closed in the east. Fortunately, like | :38:46. | :38:49. | |
Lostwithiel with their two sessions, a hard-working postmaster from | :38:50. | :38:54. | |
another village has come in and taken over. And they have a slight | :38:55. | :39:01. | |
reprieve. Working closely with my local councillors and candidates we | :39:02. | :39:07. | |
have secured a temporary reprieve. But we need a permanent solution in | :39:08. | :39:11. | |
Looe, as well. It is a major tourist town. If tourists come they do not | :39:12. | :39:16. | |
want to go to a town where they cannot access Post Office services. | :39:17. | :39:22. | |
And in Torpoint, in my constituency, close to my home town, we have had | :39:23. | :39:28. | |
the bank close, people have been told to use banking services, they | :39:29. | :39:32. | |
can go to the Post Office, or they could make a three-hour round-trip | :39:33. | :39:37. | |
to bank their money. Somebody has looked on a map and actually | :39:38. | :39:43. | |
measured the distance and not taken account of the fact that on their | :39:44. | :39:49. | |
own peninsular you have 1.5 hours of a bus ride to access the alternative | :39:50. | :39:53. | |
bank. The Post Office is already heavily used. People are very | :39:54. | :39:57. | |
worried they will not be able to cope with the extra pressure. Can I | :39:58. | :40:03. | |
please ask the Minister to take account of rural Post Office | :40:04. | :40:07. | |
services in places like South East Cornwall, to make sure people get | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
the service they want. Thank you very much. Carol Mona Hampel stop -- | :40:12. | :40:23. | |
Carol Mona Hammer. In the north-west of Glasgow, with a population of | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
about 13,000, it was developed post war to move people from the urban | :40:29. | :40:32. | |
slums to the outskirts of the city. Much of the housing was poor | :40:33. | :40:37. | |
quality. Lack of amenities means there are serious social issues, | :40:38. | :40:43. | |
many of which persist. Digital literacy is low and one in every two | :40:44. | :40:49. | |
children here are living in poverty. There are one or two shops around | :40:50. | :40:54. | |
the estate. But the heart of the town is a small shopping centre with | :40:55. | :41:00. | |
an avenue Post Office located. There is a small Post Office counter have | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
the opposite end of the estate but it offers a far reduced service. A | :41:05. | :41:13. | |
quick check shows it offers drop and go and foreign currency. Compared | :41:14. | :41:19. | |
with the main Post Office, which includes passport services, banking, | :41:20. | :41:22. | |
car tax, travel insurance, bus tickets, to name but a view, this is | :41:23. | :41:29. | |
of great importance when we consider the high number of people in the | :41:30. | :41:33. | |
town not able to access the Internet. A recent study by citizens | :41:34. | :41:39. | |
advice Scotland estimated 50% of people in areas of deprivation do | :41:40. | :41:44. | |
not have Internet access. Many of the tasks we can do at home are not | :41:45. | :41:52. | |
possible for many of the residents. I visited the avenue Post Office a | :41:53. | :42:01. | |
number of times and I have listened to the concerns of residents. Some | :42:02. | :42:04. | |
talks about travel issues to the next nearest Post Office. They said | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
it will be difficult and for some disabled people it will be | :42:10. | :42:15. | |
impossible. This is a busy Post Office with queues at the counter. | :42:16. | :42:21. | |
The locals are feeling very strongly about this. I have a petition with | :42:22. | :42:27. | |
640 signatures. And another 500 signatures from online. I will | :42:28. | :42:33. | |
present this petition today. This is a Post Office at the heart of the | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
local community. Its removal would be devastating for the area. It is | :42:39. | :42:44. | |
more than just commercial viability. This is a key public service. It | :42:45. | :42:50. | |
must be protected. I would like to ask the Minister, has there been an | :42:51. | :42:58. | |
impact assessment done on this area? Has the mobility of residents been | :42:59. | :43:01. | |
considered when we are looking at these closures? This must not go | :43:02. | :43:07. | |
ahead. It will be devastating for this community. | :43:08. | :43:14. | |
Thank you very much, Sir Edward. This was the first debate I had in | :43:15. | :43:21. | |
my name in Westminster Hall when I was elected in 2015 and I vowed I | :43:22. | :43:26. | |
would continue to speak on this. So I thank the honourable member for | :43:27. | :43:31. | |
giving me that chance. For over a year in my constituency, 8,000 | :43:32. | :43:35. | |
residents were unable to access a Post Office in Heathfield because | :43:36. | :43:40. | |
the previous landlord what the doors and refused to allow trading. | :43:41. | :43:47. | |
Alternatives with suggested during that time but no business was | :43:48. | :43:51. | |
willing to take the Post Office on. Can I use this opportunity to thank | :43:52. | :43:57. | |
Mr Sanjiv Patel from Heathfield, who had the vision and took the risk and | :43:58. | :44:03. | |
took the Post Office on? Almost 12 months on, that business is now | :44:04. | :44:08. | |
thriving. I want to pay tribute to him for taking that risk, and I hope | :44:09. | :44:13. | |
other Honourable Members will find entrepreneurs in their constituency | :44:14. | :44:17. | |
willing to do likewise to solve the situation is they have outlined. Can | :44:18. | :44:24. | |
I also perhaps at this juncture pay credit to Post Office business? In | :44:25. | :44:30. | |
my constituency, I have 25 branches and as a result of collaboration, we | :44:31. | :44:36. | |
have 17 branches which have received investment to modernise, | :44:37. | :44:40. | |
transforming into either a Post Office main branch are local. I have | :44:41. | :44:46. | |
six branches with community status being the last shop in the village | :44:47. | :44:50. | |
and they have received access to investment funding. And in total, I | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
have 600 additional branch opening hours per week and ten branches open | :44:56. | :45:00. | |
on a Sunday. If only our GP surgeries could follow suit, Sir | :45:01. | :45:04. | |
Edward. Sir Edward, I want to return to the three points mage during the | :45:05. | :45:08. | |
debate which I think are important for reform. Firstly, the issues of | :45:09. | :45:13. | |
consultations. Despite not having a Post Office or a single business | :45:14. | :45:16. | |
willing to put themselves forward and having just one option, | :45:17. | :45:20. | |
Heathfield still had to run a consultation exercise, which only | :45:21. | :45:24. | |
delayed the inevitable decision to go with the one business willing to | :45:25. | :45:27. | |
put themselves forward. Secondly, the point has been made as to | :45:28. | :45:33. | |
whether a franchise such as bargain booze is suitable. It is an alcohol | :45:34. | :45:41. | |
selling business but we have seen no noticeable impact is as a result and | :45:42. | :45:44. | |
if they are willing to take the risk, I would support them. The Post | :45:45. | :45:50. | |
Office is a financial services provider and given such a large part | :45:51. | :45:54. | |
of the customer base is pensioners and we need more High Street | :45:55. | :45:58. | |
providers to give equity release solutions to pensioners. Shall care, | :45:59. | :46:04. | |
perhaps that is an obvious match. Finally, in a settlement with over | :46:05. | :46:08. | |
5,000 residents who have received no Post Office for six months, I would | :46:09. | :46:12. | |
like to see the Post Office provide the base and the postmaster for the | :46:13. | :46:17. | |
future. Today's debate is not about being | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
against change. Those of ours with concerns recognise the world is a | :46:23. | :46:26. | |
very different place, our wages, nobody here did a degree with the | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
help of Wikipedia and some of us have jumpers older than the | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
internet. But it is the question about what drives those changes. I | :46:36. | :46:40. | |
have seen them on the member for Chingford! It is about what drives | :46:41. | :46:45. | |
those changes. Those of us on this side have a concern that if those | :46:46. | :46:49. | |
changes are driven by the market alone, they rarely deliver for the | :46:50. | :46:53. | |
public the best outcomes and often end up hitting the poorest hardest. | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
Nowhere is that clearer than in the changes and the closures we have | :46:59. | :47:00. | |
seen in our Post Office in the last couple of years, 40% have been in | :47:01. | :47:05. | |
our urban and poorest communities like my own and we now have two Post | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
Offices in Walthamstow threatened under this latest proposal. In the | :47:11. | :47:14. | |
short time available, I want to flag up a couple of points, first, this | :47:15. | :47:20. | |
is happening but not in a vacuum but against a backdrop about bank | :47:21. | :47:23. | |
closures and I caution the member for sure because what we have seen | :47:24. | :47:26. | |
with the closure of banks and services Post Offices provide, it is | :47:27. | :47:31. | |
simply not the same for residents. You might be able to get money out | :47:32. | :47:35. | |
but you can do precious little else. That matters in communities like | :47:36. | :47:41. | |
mine. I also disagree with the member for a place I am sure is | :47:42. | :47:45. | |
beautiful but I cannot remember the name, that he says he is happy to | :47:46. | :47:49. | |
see franchises of everybody and anybody, I do not think we want | :47:50. | :47:55. | |
shops with our stamps and I am concerned that with WH Smith, the | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
services have deteriorated in terms of disabled access and queueing | :48:00. | :48:04. | |
times. I will give way very quickly. I absolutely agree with the point | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
she is making and in terms of new Crossgate Post Office, one thing I | :48:09. | :48:12. | |
have been concerned about is I have not been able to get any figures | :48:13. | :48:16. | |
around the profitability in terms of what the state is with the Post | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
Office. And the Minister needs to make sure they get that information. | :48:21. | :48:25. | |
I completely agree and for those facing closures like in Walthamstow | :48:26. | :48:33. | |
and our main Post Office, what could an alternative future be, what could | :48:34. | :48:38. | |
make them sustainable and not white elephants in the provision of public | :48:39. | :48:42. | |
services but jewels in the crown? And that comes very much with the | :48:43. | :48:46. | |
role of financial services. In particular, the missed opportunities | :48:47. | :48:50. | |
with the linkup with organisations like credit unions. Some members | :48:51. | :48:54. | |
opposite did not think DWP services should be part of our Post Office | :48:55. | :48:59. | |
system, but there is an opportunity when it comes to financial services. | :49:00. | :49:02. | |
This is a country where under banking is still a major problem. 2 | :49:03. | :49:06. | |
million people who have no access to a bank account. 8% of all 18 to | :49:07. | :49:12. | |
19-year-olds. We know that is rising debt in our communities and we see | :49:13. | :49:17. | |
it in surgeries and in places in London alone, we see people who just | :49:18. | :49:24. | |
have too much and there are big increases in consumer spending so | :49:25. | :49:28. | |
the credit union movement is never more needed and that is for me a | :49:29. | :49:32. | |
missed opportunity. I want to hear the Minister say why in six years of | :49:33. | :49:35. | |
the Government talking about working with credit unions, we have not seen | :49:36. | :49:39. | |
that linkup with Post Office. The credit unions have done fantastic | :49:40. | :49:43. | |
work uncovering the impact of these closures for communities like mine | :49:44. | :49:46. | |
and they would support that kind of work. I know in my local area they | :49:47. | :49:51. | |
have not even asked the credit union whether they could work with them | :49:52. | :49:54. | |
when they are talking about closing my two local Post Offices and now | :49:55. | :49:58. | |
they say the consultation is over, it is too late to start that | :49:59. | :50:04. | |
conversation. We must not lose this opportunity to build the financial | :50:05. | :50:07. | |
inclusion in our communities need by bringing those two services | :50:08. | :50:10. | |
together. As the member for sure has pointed out, in France, there is a | :50:11. | :50:16. | |
different future for Post Offices rooted in financial inclusion | :50:17. | :50:18. | |
services. What is the Minister doing to bring credit unions and not Yager | :50:19. | :50:22. | |
meisters into our communities to bring them a stable future? Very | :50:23. | :50:32. | |
grateful to be called in to the honourable gentleman for bringing | :50:33. | :50:36. | |
this important debate. I was the shadow Minister for postal services | :50:37. | :50:39. | |
for most of the last Parliament and I was told by many ministers and | :50:40. | :50:42. | |
government that this closure programme would be the last closure | :50:43. | :50:45. | |
programme in order to make the Post Office sustainable, but it appears | :50:46. | :50:50. | |
that is not to be the case. I remember the phrase in the | :50:51. | :50:54. | |
Conservative Party manifesto of 2010, that the dusty tomb in the | :50:55. | :50:57. | |
shelves of political history, that the Government would make the Post | :50:58. | :51:02. | |
Office the front office of government, well, they have done | :51:03. | :51:05. | |
little to do that and that has given a situation here today where we have | :51:06. | :51:10. | |
a number Post Office closures and a number of Crown office closures | :51:11. | :51:13. | |
including incredibly popular Morningside Post Office in my own | :51:14. | :51:18. | |
constituency. I could be cynical having been in this place. In years, | :51:19. | :51:23. | |
but I don't see the Morningside Post Office franchising its system about | :51:24. | :51:29. | |
being franchising, it is about closing the Post Office. I remember | :51:30. | :51:34. | |
doing a public meeting when the first Crown Post Office franchising | :51:35. | :51:37. | |
policies were going through and Post Office was pressed on what would | :51:38. | :51:43. | |
happen if nobody came forward to take on these Post Offices and the | :51:44. | :51:46. | |
answer was, we will probably have too embarrassed in it. -- we will | :51:47. | :51:52. | |
probably have to invest in it. So we should be investing in Post Offices | :51:53. | :51:55. | |
to make them places on our high streets where people can use them | :51:56. | :51:59. | |
and enjoy them and have the services we need. We have a crisis in our | :52:00. | :52:03. | |
shopping streets, we have the clearing banks closing branches and | :52:04. | :52:07. | |
if they clearing bank is posing a branch in the local High Street, you | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
get a letter to say you can use the Post Office for the services they | :52:12. | :52:15. | |
will no longer be supplying. We have local shops in trouble, we have pubs | :52:16. | :52:20. | |
in trouble. The Post Office is that iconic thing in the High Street that | :52:21. | :52:24. | |
drives football and the pride in the High Street and gives you stability | :52:25. | :52:28. | |
in terms of the operations of the retail units. And as an aside, Sir | :52:29. | :52:33. | |
Edward, what is not helping in terms of my High Street in my constituency | :52:34. | :52:38. | |
is not just of potential closure of Morningside Post Office, but the | :52:39. | :52:42. | |
rates have increased by some of the retailers by over 100%. That is | :52:43. | :52:49. | |
surely unacceptable if we want our high streets... I would love to, but | :52:50. | :52:53. | |
I think we was struggle in terms of time to get everybody else in. I | :52:54. | :52:58. | |
have seen the financial figures for the Morningside Crown Post Office | :52:59. | :53:02. | |
and it is financially unviable for anyone to take it on. It is | :53:03. | :53:05. | |
financially viable for the Post Office to run it but not for anyone | :53:06. | :53:10. | |
else to going with the capital and rental payments they require and to | :53:11. | :53:14. | |
make that a sustainable business, which makes me suspicious it is just | :53:15. | :53:18. | |
a vehicle for closing that Post Office. Time to make the Post Office | :53:19. | :53:21. | |
the front office of government. And the Minister has divided by that and | :53:22. | :53:26. | |
do something the previous government did not do, and invest in our Crown | :53:27. | :53:30. | |
Post Offices. I am grateful to the honourable | :53:31. | :53:36. | |
member for ensuring today's debate which is an extremely worthy subject | :53:37. | :53:39. | |
given it could be one of the last we have in this Parliament. I would | :53:40. | :53:45. | |
like to declare an interest, I am a proud trade unionist and the | :53:46. | :53:47. | |
Communication Workers' Union have done as much as anyone on this issue | :53:48. | :53:52. | |
and put it at the forefront of political debate and campaign in | :53:53. | :53:54. | |
communities such as those I represent in Norwich South. I | :53:55. | :54:00. | |
believe the Post Office is a vital public service. It is a vital | :54:01. | :54:04. | |
service and this issue needs to be at the rally, not least because the | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
job losses behind these closures and the substitution of jobs reads the | :54:09. | :54:15. | |
insecurity. It shows the seeming contempt for those who have | :54:16. | :54:22. | |
responded with consultations and donated time and expertise only to | :54:23. | :54:24. | |
be met with silence by the Government, so perhaps the Minister | :54:25. | :54:29. | |
could touch on the reasons for that. And not just because the closure of | :54:30. | :54:33. | |
Crown branches is likely to have a negative impact on the Post Office | :54:34. | :54:39. | |
overall and its revenue and might describe this as deliberate managed | :54:40. | :54:45. | |
decline. A key issue that draws this together is this Government's | :54:46. | :54:49. | |
attitude to communities around the country and those who live in them. | :54:50. | :54:54. | |
When branches get closed franchise, the lives of many we represent get a | :54:55. | :54:57. | |
little bit worse. The small amount of research we have on this points | :54:58. | :55:03. | |
to the longer spent... Lower levels of expert advice and poorer disabled | :55:04. | :55:08. | |
access, ensuring a poorer service. I feel we must add to this a third | :55:09. | :55:13. | |
erosion and that is what it means to live in a vibrant community. A place | :55:14. | :55:17. | |
that has resources and services not dependent simply on the ongoing | :55:18. | :55:22. | |
assistance of WH Smith. A place where people and the details and | :55:23. | :55:26. | |
experiences of their lives count. Where the expertise of those like | :55:27. | :55:30. | |
postal workers is valued and we can rely on their support to run our | :55:31. | :55:34. | |
businesses and sent parcels to our families and sent and received | :55:35. | :55:38. | |
votes. And we do so in the knowledge to those serving as can fully | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
participate in our community. That those with disabilities can also be | :55:43. | :55:46. | |
part of this normal life. Every week, we make 70 million visits to | :55:47. | :55:53. | |
two Post Offices. This is not a niche activity, it is part of | :55:54. | :55:56. | |
ordinary life, and chipping away at this is yet another example of this | :55:57. | :55:59. | |
Government dinning out everyday life. These are policy choices and | :56:00. | :56:05. | |
we rode them and the quality of many people's lives when we make them. -- | :56:06. | :56:13. | |
we erode them. We have seen the decline of a Great British | :56:14. | :56:17. | |
institution over a long period of time and one which the public are | :56:18. | :56:22. | |
very attached to on practical grounds. There has been a radical | :56:23. | :56:25. | |
shift in the delivery of postal services and not for the good, there | :56:26. | :56:30. | |
has been a contraction by about half over a period of time and a | :56:31. | :56:33. | |
withdrawal of government support. Years ago, there was a major closure | :56:34. | :56:37. | |
of sub Post Offices and at least on that occasion, there were eight sub | :56:38. | :56:42. | |
Post Offices threatened with closure in my borough and five of those were | :56:43. | :56:47. | |
kept open by a very vigorous campaign and made into a viable | :56:48. | :56:50. | |
working network. What has unfortunately happened since is a | :56:51. | :56:54. | |
success of government promised there would be no further closures and | :56:55. | :56:59. | |
that is almost as bad because main Post Offices are moving the less | :57:00. | :57:04. | |
good sites because they are cheaper. And one temporary closure sometimes | :57:05. | :57:11. | |
amounts the years. Let me explain by what is happening at the moment to | :57:12. | :57:15. | |
Shepherd's Bush, the town centre in my constituency. There is the last | :57:16. | :57:21. | |
of our Crown Post Offices and it is very busy with queues out of the | :57:22. | :57:25. | |
door, the staff are very good and even quite famous and feature in the | :57:26. | :57:29. | |
columns of the comedian Richard Herring is a regular user of that | :57:30. | :57:33. | |
Post Office. That is being forced out of its premises and I spent many | :57:34. | :57:37. | |
hours trying to negotiate going to location in the town centre in the | :57:38. | :57:42. | |
shopping centre, but it is going into the Westfield regional shopping | :57:43. | :57:48. | |
centre which is very inaccessible to local people. Because it will go to | :57:49. | :57:54. | |
the back of a WH Smith branch. The WH Smith deal is good for the Post | :57:55. | :57:59. | |
Office and it is cheap space and it increases for fall, but it is not | :58:00. | :58:03. | |
good for customers and therefore we have, I am pleased to say we are | :58:04. | :58:08. | |
retaining our last sub Crown Post Office but in a mile -- in a less | :58:09. | :58:12. | |
satisfactory way. The concession the Post Office has made is to provide a | :58:13. | :58:18. | |
new sub Post Office in the town centre Shepherd's Bush but | :58:19. | :58:20. | |
unfortunately I see little prospect of finding a location because the | :58:21. | :58:28. | |
two nearest sub Post Offices have been closed once since last year and | :58:29. | :58:34. | |
140 macro years on Saint and's Road, most of them serving large and very | :58:35. | :58:40. | |
deprived communities and growing communities because there is a lot | :58:41. | :58:45. | |
of poverty in the area. So I fail to see what is going wrong here. We | :58:46. | :58:50. | |
must have a continuing network, we cannot have these temporary | :58:51. | :58:53. | |
closures, they are happening is because the offer made to shops and | :58:54. | :58:57. | |
existing sub postmasters will simply not good enough. And as other | :58:58. | :59:01. | |
members have said, it is part of the decline of our high streets, the | :59:02. | :59:05. | |
loss of banks, the loss of markets and the loss of everything that | :59:06. | :59:06. | |
local people need to rely on. The Post Office in Stockton high | :59:07. | :59:17. | |
street in 2014 was downgraded to a lesser franchise branch and buried | :59:18. | :59:22. | |
away inside a WH Smith 's store. I likened it to privatisation at the | :59:23. | :59:27. | |
time through the back door, ignoring the consultation that took place and | :59:28. | :59:32. | |
put staff at of losing employment. Last year a Post Office was | :59:33. | :59:34. | |
franchised and moved half a mile away from the high street, again | :59:35. | :59:39. | |
buried inside another shop. In January this year the Post Office | :59:40. | :59:44. | |
announced it would close the Billingham crown office branch | :59:45. | :59:48. | |
making another franchise. It is more than a bit ironic that in the last | :59:49. | :59:52. | |
few days I was briefed by the Post Office, talking about bank closures | :59:53. | :59:56. | |
and how they can feel the service gap. The member for East Worthing | :59:57. | :00:01. | |
and sure talk about the opportunities are there. Without a | :00:02. | :00:05. | |
robust network they cannot deliver their usual services, never mind | :00:06. | :00:17. | |
others on the heart of the banks -- never mind on behalf of the banks. I | :00:18. | :00:25. | |
think the Government should adopt their recommendations, confirming | :00:26. | :00:30. | |
appropriate funding, to keep the current network as well as raise | :00:31. | :00:33. | |
awareness around public consultation regarding the closures and | :00:34. | :00:39. | |
franchising branches. The union sent me a great brief, underlining key | :00:40. | :00:47. | |
issues. I also support the idea of a post-bank which they have written to | :00:48. | :00:51. | |
me about. They talk about the impact on customers, queue times, service | :00:52. | :00:53. | |
times, disabled access, customer service. Replacing good jobs with | :00:54. | :01:00. | |
insecurity. The majority of staff in the crown office will leave when it | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
closes. The use of public money, the Post Office will not confirm how | :01:05. | :01:11. | |
much is given to retailers, like WHSmith, so maybe the Minister can | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
enlighten us. There is the wider social and economic impact. The loss | :01:16. | :01:18. | |
of jobs and removing the physical shop from the high street. These are | :01:19. | :01:24. | |
valid points. If we do not challenge these proposed changes and closures | :01:25. | :01:31. | |
then every major community in my constituency has seen their post of | :01:32. | :01:34. | |
his downgraded, if we do not fight against it will be detrimental for | :01:35. | :01:40. | |
our constituents. I hope the Minister will rattle some pages | :01:41. | :01:43. | |
here. Thank you. I congratulate the honourable gentleman for bringing it | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
forward and setting the scene so well and getting us all a chance to | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
speak. As an advocate of the Post Offices, as I represent a community | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
that has long been concerned about the isolation and rely on the Post | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
Office, this reliance is specifically created in Strangford | :02:03. | :02:11. | |
because the banks are closing there. As the banks are closing they say | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
they are going to use the local Post Offices and then they close and | :02:16. | :02:18. | |
people jump on the bus and go on long journeys already on public | :02:19. | :02:22. | |
transport to towns to access their banking. The news the Post Office | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
will close at 37 of the biggest branches, leaving more than 300 | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
people out of a job in January was shocking and not expected. The | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
branches are being franchised out and the idea is to keep services | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
where customers want to meet them. It does follow on from operating in | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
Rowell areas where large Post Offices are under pressure and it | :02:44. | :02:46. | |
does not speak well for smaller Post Offices. In the five-day strike by | :02:47. | :02:52. | |
members of a referred to jobs, pensions, branch closures and the | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
proposed closure of my local branch. The fact the Post Office is talking | :02:57. | :03:03. | |
about 37 partners as part of efforts to secure the services around the | :03:04. | :03:11. | |
job concerns workers have. Everyone of us as MPs have been fighting hard | :03:12. | :03:18. | |
for their Post Offices and we are talking about some 50% in the last | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
30 years of closures. People are not certain as to where they will be | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
employed and they need more security for current staff. Morale levels are | :03:27. | :03:32. | |
at a critical level. I call on the Government to respond as a major | :03:33. | :03:35. | |
stakeholder and invest in the Post Offices. I look to the Minister for | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
a response to make sure this threat of closure does not continue an | :03:40. | :03:42. | |
investment is made to enhance, not cut services. I received order of | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
the strike action which would affect my area. As you will be aware, the | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
union has called for further strike action on the 19th, 30th and 24th of | :03:53. | :04:00. | |
December in three managed offices and on the cash distribution | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
operation. People are working on 90 some percent of the network, 30,000 | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
individuals working in independently run Post Offices will not be | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
involved in the industrial action. These are not currency figures. | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
These are people working hard to pay their mortgage. I ask the | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
Government... Not just for the workers and the Post Office but for | :04:26. | :04:28. | |
those that use the Post Office in Strangford and the peninsular and | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
the whole of the United Kingdom of this great nation of Great Britain | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
and Northern Ireland. Thank you, Sir Edward. It is a pleasure to serve | :04:38. | :04:44. | |
under your chairmanship. I thank the honourable member for Shoreham | :04:45. | :04:47. | |
Airshow, etc, for bringing this debate to the House. It is testament | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
to how passionate people feel in the last week of this parliament that so | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
many members are here fighting for their local communities. I expected | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
to walk into almost an empty room. I am amazed and delighted so many | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
people are here. It is the second time I have spoken about this. I | :05:06. | :05:08. | |
could not possibly sum up everything everybody said. But I can give | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
examples from my own area where Motherwell is losing its current | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
Post Office. It is situated in the town centre at Motherwell. And the | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
number of businesses that will be affected if the closure goes ahead | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
is incalculable. People go to the town centre to get to the Post | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
Office, get their pension, spend money and we do not have a WH in | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
Motherwell any more. We did not have one in Wishaw either. -- WHSmith in | :05:37. | :05:43. | |
Motherwell. And the Wishaw Post Office closed years ago. We see the | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
effect that had. It was relocated into a nice shop, a good shop, but | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
unfortunately it was not designed to be a Post Office. Access is | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
difficult. Queues snaked around effectively the old Woolworths. It | :06:00. | :06:05. | |
does not work. We are really concerned. The C W U tried to save | :06:06. | :06:14. | |
the Motherwell Crown Post Office and I myself conducted a survey of | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
customers. They were all absolutely incandescent. 84% of the people I | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
spoke to said they used the Post Office every week. And they have to | :06:25. | :06:30. | |
queue up. People said if they lose this Post Office, small businesses | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
especially who use their services will be hugely affected. They do not | :06:35. | :06:38. | |
know where they will go. Because again we are losing out in the area. | :06:39. | :06:45. | |
We are losing banks in the area. That is not what these small | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
businesses want. They want to use banking services within the Post | :06:51. | :06:52. | |
Office and do postal worker at the same time. Because so many of them | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
rely on the Post Office to get things out to customers. It is | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
really disturbing that the Government has said and claimed they | :07:04. | :07:06. | |
would use the Post Offices as the front office for government. That | :07:07. | :07:13. | |
has not happened. Speaking to the postmasters and post mistresses, the | :07:14. | :07:15. | |
loss of government business has affected the business generally. I | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
could not find any figures about Motherwell Crown Post Office. Its | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
turnover and why it was being picked. I was told it was | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
confidential commercially. If some people are getting, some members | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
have access to information, why can't all members access this kind | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
of information? It is not right. At the end of the day, we need to keep | :07:41. | :07:46. | |
our Post Offices. We have lost a number of sub branches that have | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
moved from very assessable and very local places further out into | :07:52. | :07:57. | |
estates, housing schemes, which are not assessable for the majority of | :07:58. | :08:00. | |
people. They sued the people that are there. Into the local | :08:01. | :08:08. | |
convenience store. But they do not suit people... -- they suit the | :08:09. | :08:15. | |
people that are there. It was right where the local authority has | :08:16. | :08:18. | |
hundreds of workers. They cannot access either a Post Office if they | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
close the one in the main town centre. It is going to be an | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
absolute loss of work for those in that Post Office and for people and | :08:28. | :08:34. | |
businesses around it. I feel very strongly about this and I am very | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
glad to hear such cross-party support against this round of | :08:39. | :08:46. | |
closures and the effect it has on the poorest in our communities, who | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
use the Post Office the most. The most elderly in our communities, who | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
use Post Offices the most. I would ask the Minister to come back and | :08:57. | :09:03. | |
put pressure on the Post Office to absolutely halt this latest round of | :09:04. | :09:15. | |
closures. Thank you, Sir Edward. It is a pleasure to serve under your | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
chairperson ship. I congratulate the member for Worthing and sure for | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
securing this debate. I pay tribute to the Communication Workers Union, | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
who have helped to highlight these issues among the public and MPs, as | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
well. The Post Office is a trusted national brand with a long history | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
and it is instantly recognisable to people all across the UK. It forms a | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
part of the everyday fabric of life, offering a wide range of products | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
and services. It also provides an anchor for communities, decent jobs | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
and important access to services in rural and urban deprived areas. | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
Instead of making the Post Office bit for purpose for the 21st | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
century, this government has let it fall by the wayside and has only | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
contributed to a managed decline of a well loved and trusted | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
institution. This government is intent on the privatisation of | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
public services. The government used to say it would support a robust | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
Post Office. A former prime ministers said it would be the front | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
of office for government. -- a former prime minister. They have | :10:29. | :10:34. | |
instead overseen a strategy of cuts costing thousands of job losses, as | :10:35. | :10:37. | |
well as a decline in services provided. The Labour Party is clear, | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
we will hold further privatisation and instead invest 80 million of | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
public money already going in to make sure the sustainability of | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
branches and services, ensuring services are retained and promoted | :10:53. | :10:59. | |
and expanding the click and collect facilities, as well as providing | :11:00. | :11:02. | |
banking and financial services, which we know are so vital to those | :11:03. | :11:09. | |
who are financially excluded. In 2016, there were 62 closures and | :11:10. | :11:16. | |
franchising programmes and 500 job losses from the cash handling | :11:17. | :11:19. | |
section. More than 2000 jobs have been lost in total since 2016. On | :11:20. | :11:26. | |
January the tenth in 2017 it was announced another 37 Crown Post | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
Offices were going under the same franchising system. It could see 300 | :11:31. | :11:38. | |
experienced Post Office staff and 127 financial specialist roles | :11:39. | :11:44. | |
across the network go. Crown Post Offices are typically run by the | :11:45. | :11:47. | |
Post Office and directly employ staff. Often they are located in | :11:48. | :11:55. | |
prominent high streets. Despite only 286 of all Post Offices being Crown | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
branches, they have brought in a significant amount of revenue, | :12:00. | :12:05. | |
between ten and 20% of the Post Office revenue overall. By | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
privatising the officers, or transferring into retail shops like | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
WH Smiths, this massively copra misers the services provided. For | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
example, the consumer satisfaction falls overall. -- compromises | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
services provided. Longer servicing time and poor access for disabled | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
customers. We know the right 10% fewer counters per branch in WHSmith | :12:29. | :12:33. | |
branches than Crown Post Offices and 17% less foreign currency and | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
business banking positions. We know at least 30 postmasters retail | :12:40. | :12:43. | |
businesses in a bargain boozed franchise. Not all franchises will | :12:44. | :12:50. | |
have worse provision than before. The overall trend is saddening. | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
Recent research shows that Post Office continues to deliver more | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
than 4 billion in social value each year to people and businesses | :13:00. | :13:05. | |
throughout the UK. Will my honourable friend give way? | :13:06. | :13:15. | |
She has highlighted how when the Post Office and WH Smith, the | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
service deteriorate but when you add on to the fact that some of these | :13:21. | :13:27. | |
are in deprived communities, that puts people in dire straits. I | :13:28. | :13:33. | |
completely agree with the honourable member. It is very saddening people | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
in deprived areas just get further and further away from the wider part | :13:39. | :13:44. | |
of accessing financial services which are so necessary to them. | :13:45. | :13:57. | |
Since the privatisation of the Royal Mail, the government promised a | :13:58. | :14:02. | |
transformative vision for the post office, a genuine office of the | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
government, and for a significant expansion of its banking services | :14:08. | :14:10. | |
but we have seen neither of these promises bail through. The post | :14:11. | :14:13. | |
offers revenues from government services has fallen by some 40% and | :14:14. | :14:19. | |
secondly, income from financial services has risen only by 2%, which | :14:20. | :14:23. | |
isn't even keeping up with inflation. The Government talk | :14:24. | :14:26. | |
cost-cutting measures but we know that 3.3 million was spent on | :14:27. | :14:33. | |
refurbishing branches that were then franchised in 2016 at an average | :14:34. | :14:40. | |
cost of 100,000 per branch. I was pleased that the government had | :14:41. | :14:42. | |
initiated a consultation on the post office last December. At that time, | :14:43. | :14:50. | |
the CW you delivered 75,000 postcards signed by members of the | :14:51. | :14:54. | |
public calling to save the post office, the people's post. Only | :14:55. | :15:02. | |
weeks later the post office announced 37 more Crown Post Office | :15:03. | :15:04. | |
closures before consultation was even produced. Nearly five months | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
later and we are still awaiting the government's response to that. In | :15:10. | :15:15. | |
conclusion, the Government's track record has shown it to be a | :15:16. | :15:18. | |
government happy to cut public spending at any cost. At a shied | :15:19. | :15:22. | |
away from communicating with those affected. The consultation closed on | :15:23. | :15:28. | |
December 21 has been delayed. Will the Minister tell the House when she | :15:29. | :15:31. | |
had planned to publish the Government's response? Why have | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
financial services been cut instead of promoting them? Why have we not | :15:37. | :15:48. | |
looked at the example of a foreign example which has been so successful | :15:49. | :15:54. | |
in providing revenue for the government but in providing services | :15:55. | :15:57. | |
for those who need them most. I really would like to know what | :15:58. | :16:01. | |
contingency planning there is for franchises that are already there | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
and coming up for renewal as well as any new franchises, because the | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
association of convenience stores have got major problems with their | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
members who, due to the hike in business rates, may not wish to | :16:15. | :16:23. | |
provide ongoing franchise services or actually want to carry on in | :16:24. | :16:30. | |
future. Thank you. Thank you, Sir Edward. That is a pleasure to serve | :16:31. | :16:33. | |
under your chairmanship and I would like to congratulate the honourable | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
member for East Worthing and Shoreham for securing this crucial | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
debate this morning, and the attendance here today and the | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
passion with which members have spoken about their local areas and | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
the value of the post office in their local areas shows just what an | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
important topic this is, which will be, I suspect, for several of us | :16:57. | :16:59. | |
here, our last debate in this Parliament. The Government certainly | :17:00. | :17:05. | |
recognises the crucial role post offices play in communities across | :17:06. | :17:09. | |
the country and between 2010 and 2018, the Government will have | :17:10. | :17:14. | |
provided almost ?2 billion to maintain, modernise and protect a | :17:15. | :17:18. | |
network of at least 11,500 branches across the country. The honourable | :17:19. | :17:26. | |
member talks about post office closures. There are over 11,600 post | :17:27. | :17:33. | |
office branches now in the UK and the network across the country is at | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
its most stable for decades. Had experienced a substantial decline in | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
numbers in the 13 or so years before 2010 and the number since 2010 has | :17:44. | :17:50. | |
been kept absolutely stable, and the graph shows that to be absolutely | :17:51. | :17:57. | |
accurate. And that really is down to the transformation and modernisation | :17:58. | :18:00. | |
of the network, thanks to the investment that taxpayers have made. | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
I thank my honourable friend for East Worthing and Shaw for his | :18:06. | :18:08. | |
positive remarks about that network transformation programme and just to | :18:09. | :18:14. | |
summarise, it has secured the transformation of more than 7000 | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
branches and I'm sure I'm not alone as a constituency MP in having felt | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
and seen the benefits of those transformations in my own branches. | :18:24. | :18:30. | |
More than 4300 branches now open on Sundays. There are nearly 1 million | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
more additional opening hours to be added to the network every month and | :18:35. | :18:43. | |
losses have been reduced from ?120 million to ?24 million. That is a | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
substantial result on the past of -- the part of the post office | :18:48. | :18:49. | |
management and the workers in the post office network. The subsidy | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
that taxpayers have been obliged to put in during this period has fallen | :18:55. | :19:01. | |
by 60% since 2012, and that's why it is more stable than it has been in a | :19:02. | :19:07. | |
generation and the post office has managed those transformations whilst | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
achieving customer satisfaction levels that have remained at over 95 | :19:12. | :19:16. | |
cents this programme. I will give way once, because time... I've only | :19:17. | :19:23. | |
got ten minutes. I'm grateful to have a giving waited up she talks of | :19:24. | :19:28. | |
most of the 60% reduction in taxpayer subsidy. Doesn't she think | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
it would be better for the taxpayer to invest in our services like post | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
offices and maybe prevent some of these quotas and downgrading and | :19:38. | :19:40. | |
their four maintain services for these communities? I agree with him | :19:41. | :19:48. | |
that we need to invest in the postal service and we are investing in the | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
Postal Service and I hope that we will continue to do so but I'm | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
afraid that one of the aspects of investment does involve making the | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
existing structure of Crown Post Office is more efficient and more | :20:02. | :20:07. | |
affordable and we have, through the process of modernisation and | :20:08. | :20:11. | |
franchising of Crown Post Office is, been able to reduce the losses of | :20:12. | :20:18. | |
those particular branches, which is a way we have of maintaining the | :20:19. | :20:24. | |
promise that we made to keep post offices open in more rural and | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
poorer areas that are not economically sustainable so I hope | :20:29. | :20:37. | |
that the honourable member will understand that we are not | :20:38. | :20:40. | |
disclosing ranchers, we franchising, making them more efficient, and we | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
are then to fulfil our promises to areas that need a post-service but | :20:47. | :20:52. | |
wouldn't have won if continuing to invest in loss-making post offices. | :20:53. | :20:55. | |
I won't give way because I accept that not all Crown Post Offices lose | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
money but the vast majority that have done are being franchised. I'm | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
going to make some progress. My honourable friend for Bexhill High | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
and battle put the case for the investment that taxpayers have made | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
in the service in his constituency very well and I join him in | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
congratulating Mr Sanjiv Patel on taking the risk, as many others have | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
done around the country, and I have found that in taking that risk, not | :21:22. | :21:26. | |
only has been good for their business, it has also been for the | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
consumer. The post office is doing more for customers, doing so more | :21:32. | :21:37. | |
officially for the taxpayer and ensuring that post office services | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
remain about how streets throughout the country. Franchising or hosting | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
some of the Crown branches is part of the post office's long-term plan | :21:47. | :21:49. | |
to ensure the network is sustainable in the long term and it is not about | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
closing services, it is about moving a branch to a lower cost model and | :21:55. | :22:01. | |
often a better location for customers, securing and improving | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
delivery of services. The change from a crown to a franchise or host | :22:06. | :22:09. | |
branch has been undertaken previously in many locations around | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
the UK and is a proven success in times of inner -- in terms of | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
sustaining services as post offices share staff and services with a | :22:18. | :22:26. | |
successful retailer, such a some of the samples we have heard this | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
morning. Crown branches have moved from a ?46 million annual loss in | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
2012 to a break even position today and that is no mean feat. There | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
continue to be Crown branches that are loss-making and that is why I | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
don't think that we can stand in the post office's way as they make their | :22:45. | :22:49. | |
service more efficient, more sustainable and more accessible to a | :22:50. | :22:51. | |
wider number of people around the country. Will she give way? I will | :22:52. | :22:59. | |
give way. I just would like to make the observation that we've got a | :23:00. | :23:04. | |
very packed house and even the members on your own side have | :23:05. | :23:12. | |
actually told of their concerns and experiences that don't actually ring | :23:13. | :23:18. | |
true on the fact that you have given to us. It just seems quite bizarre | :23:19. | :23:22. | |
that there are so many of us telling you that we have got problems. The | :23:23. | :23:27. | |
fact that the Minister has just said the government should not stand in | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
the way does not seem to be the correct response. It would seem that | :23:32. | :23:37. | |
we have got the responsibility to provide, and the government has to | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
do that, a proper service for all our communities and clearly the | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
figures that many eloquent people have given to all of us today | :23:46. | :23:49. | |
doesn't seem to be very much at odds with the view of the Minister. -- | :23:50. | :23:56. | |
does seem to be. I say to the honourable lady that I have taught | :23:57. | :23:59. | |
mostly so far about financial issues and they are undisputed facts that | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
crowns were losing 46 million and are now breaking even, and there are | :24:05. | :24:07. | |
still some loss-making ones to deal with. I appreciate that changes like | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
these are not easy, especially when it involves staff who worked for | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
many years, and I know she has had a briefing from the CW you and I have | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
met the CW you on many occasions and I sympathise with their position but | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
it is essential that the business continues to manage its costs to | :24:26. | :24:28. | |
ensure it can meet the challenges facing our high streets, let alone | :24:29. | :24:34. | |
the Post Office, now and in the future, as the way we shop and | :24:35. | :24:40. | |
access services continues to change. Several members have pointed out | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
about the government services and I agree, in 2010 we did have hopes as | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
a government that the Post Office could take over many more government | :24:49. | :24:53. | |
services but the rapidity with which some of those services have migrated | :24:54. | :24:59. | |
to being accessible on the internet has meant that that particular hope | :25:00. | :25:05. | |
has not come to enough fruition. The staff in Crown branches that are | :25:06. | :25:07. | |
being franchised to have the opportunity to transfer to the | :25:08. | :25:14. | |
franchisee in line with the TU PE process, or they can choose to be | :25:15. | :25:17. | |
the business and the Post Office does offer a very generous | :25:18. | :25:21. | |
settlement process and agreement, reflecting the hard work, commitment | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
and dedication that many of those employees have shown over the years. | :25:26. | :25:29. | |
But I reiterate the point that a more efficient Post Office is able | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
to support and supplement thousands of small businesses, like were | :25:34. | :25:39. | |
outlined by my honourable friend for South East Cornwall who spoke with | :25:40. | :25:42. | |
great authority about the needs of people in her largely rural | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
constituency and the government takes those needs very seriously and | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
has honoured the commitment to maintain the service, even where | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
they are not viable on a financial basis, to people who live in the | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
rural parts of her constituency. I won't give way. I've got no time | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
left. I want to answer the point that the honourable member the lady | :26:04. | :26:07. | |
for Washington and Sunderland West made, which I agree with, that the | :26:08. | :26:11. | |
poorer urban areas are also having a great problem in accessing local | :26:12. | :26:15. | |
services and it's not just rural areas. I'm pleased to tell her that | :26:16. | :26:19. | |
this is a real issue that the Post Office is now focusing on and I'm | :26:20. | :26:25. | |
hopeful... I have examples of where the post offices are now revisiting | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
areas where they previously closed branches ten years ago in those | :26:31. | :26:37. | |
poorer areas to talk to retailers about setting up a Post Office Local | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
counter and I hope that that will succeed in her area. I've really got | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
very little time. I also wanted to reassure the honourable lady for | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
Motherwell and Wishaw, I listened to her heartfelt concerns for | :26:51. | :26:53. | |
accessible Post Office in the town centre of Motherwell and I will ask | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
the Post Office to meet her again to discuss the most sustainable option | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
for a Post Office service in her town centre. Many members told about | :27:02. | :27:06. | |
banking and I agree this is an opportunity for the Post Office, but | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
the Post Office bank idea was looked at very closely in 2010-11 and it | :27:12. | :27:18. | |
was decided at that time that the money that the Government had would | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
be better off invested in the transformation of networks to secure | :27:24. | :27:29. | |
the sustainable access to services across the country. I can't give way | :27:30. | :27:36. | |
now, I've got no more time. I just wanted to close by saying that the | :27:37. | :27:41. | |
Post Office banking services are increasing now. They've grown 6% | :27:42. | :27:45. | |
over the last 12 months, and credit unions as well are being looked | :27:46. | :27:50. | |
at... Well, they are and I will write to the honourable lady, if I'm | :27:51. | :27:54. | |
returned, and tell her what the Post Office plans are with regard to | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
credit unions. Many others have raised issues on the Minister is | :28:00. | :28:02. | |
refusing to give way to answer to those questions. Could you give me | :28:03. | :28:05. | |
some guidance whether the department is able to give us that information | :28:06. | :28:11. | |
as as possible? That is not a matter for me to talk I ensure the | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
Minister, given the remaining 30 seconds, will do her best to answer | :28:16. | :28:18. | |
any points. I am trying to conclude my response | :28:19. | :28:27. | |
to legitimate concerns and I have responded to quite a number. But I | :28:28. | :28:30. | |
must allow time for my honourable friend to conclude the debate... OK. | :28:31. | :28:39. | |
I'm not going to fill it with interventions. I will carry on! I | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
want to reassure members Post Offices do allow click and collect | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
services. This is another area of potential growth. They are available | :28:50. | :28:56. | |
from 10,500 local Post Offices. Members were saying they do not have | :28:57. | :29:02. | |
them, but they do. In 10,000 500. If they do not have them in your | :29:03. | :29:05. | |
branch, write to me and we will look into it. The allegation powers are | :29:06. | :29:14. | |
reduced after time in convenience stores, I am pleased to say this is | :29:15. | :29:18. | |
not the case. Opening hours are not decreasing in the fullness of time. | :29:19. | :29:21. | |
I will give way to the honourable member. She has just told the House | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
the Post Office is working with the credit unions. That is not what they | :29:27. | :29:30. | |
have told us. Nothing has happened in the last five years. Everybody on | :29:31. | :29:34. | |
this side talks about financial inclusion. Will she go back and look | :29:35. | :29:39. | |
at it again and work with alternative providers who will | :29:40. | :29:44. | |
deliver? The Post Office does work with credit unions where it can. | :29:45. | :29:50. | |
There is a common link through the Co-op in some transactions. The | :29:51. | :29:54. | |
difficulty has been, and as the lady is an expert on credit unions, maybe | :29:55. | :29:59. | |
she can help us solve the problem. The problem is not having a common | :30:00. | :30:05. | |
blanking -- banking platform. When they have developed a common | :30:06. | :30:10. | |
platform, further working with credit unions should be possible. We | :30:11. | :30:13. | |
take the subject of financial inclusion very seriously. I just | :30:14. | :30:19. | |
wanted to talk a little bit more about banking. I agree with... I | :30:20. | :30:25. | |
think the honourable gentleman is happy for me to continue. Order, | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
order. A most interesting debate. We have all got Post Offices but I am | :30:31. | :30:36. | |
afraid I have two finish here. We have a more important subjects now | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
with dogs, with Nicky Morgan. Nicky Morgan. What a cheek! | :30:42. | :31:19. | |
Nicky Morgan to move the motion. Thank you. It is a pleasure to serve | :31:20. | :31:27. | |
under your chairmanship. Local authority and police force guidance | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
for dogs attacking other dogs... I am delighted to open this important | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
debate. The aim is to raise the issue of dogs attacking other dogs | :31:36. | :31:39. | |
and calling for legislation and guidance to tackle this issue. | :31:40. | :31:43. | |
Dangerous dogs are clearly a very serious problem. We know dogs can | :31:44. | :31:48. | |
attack humans. Sometimes with tragic and even fatal consequences. | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
Recently there have also been high profile dog attacks on other dogs. | :31:53. | :31:58. | |
These are often caused by irresponsible owners failing to keep | :31:59. | :32:01. | |
control of their animal. This is what happened to one of my | :32:02. | :32:07. | |
constituents when her -- with her cocker spaniel. It was set upon by | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
two large dogs in a local park let off their leashes. Thankfully it | :32:12. | :32:17. | |
survived the attack. The experience has traumatised them to such an | :32:18. | :32:19. | |
extent my constituent no longer goes to the park and the dog's confidence | :32:20. | :32:25. | |
remains shattered. Another of my constituents was traumatised when | :32:26. | :32:32. | |
her Jack Russell was killed by a dog walking by the union Kunal near my | :32:33. | :32:37. | |
constituency. The owner of the other dog refused to take responsibility | :32:38. | :32:41. | |
for the attack, leaving my constituents to cover all the | :32:42. | :32:44. | |
veterinary bills. Both constituents were told by police the incidence | :32:45. | :32:49. | |
were classed as dog on a dog, meaning no criminal offence occurred | :32:50. | :32:53. | |
and no criminal charges could be brought. These cases are not | :32:54. | :33:00. | |
unusual. I put in a Freedom of information request to all police | :33:01. | :33:04. | |
forces in England for information on how many dog on dog attacks had been | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
reported in the last two years. 14 out of 39 forces that responded at | :33:10. | :33:14. | |
easily accessible data on these incidents and between the 14 there | :33:15. | :33:19. | |
were over 1700 reported dog attacks on other dogs. Sussex Police alone | :33:20. | :33:26. | |
recorded 828 attacks in two years. The pulse responsible for my | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
constituency, Leicestershire, recorded 32 incidence of a dog | :33:32. | :33:34. | |
attacking another dog and an additional 82 cases where a dog | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
attacked a dog and person in the same incident. It is clearly very | :33:39. | :33:44. | |
concerning. It is important police forces and local authorities have | :33:45. | :33:47. | |
the power they need to tackle the problem and reduce the attacks. It | :33:48. | :33:51. | |
is something I have worked on since I became a member of Parliament. In | :33:52. | :33:57. | |
2013 I was delighted to support a campaign led by two of my | :33:58. | :33:59. | |
constituents highlighting the problem. We submitted a petition to | :34:00. | :34:03. | |
the Government and asked for the law to be tightened in this area, | :34:04. | :34:07. | |
calling for the same legal rights for dogs when they are attacked | :34:08. | :34:11. | |
currently for humans and for guide and assistance dogs. The petition | :34:12. | :34:16. | |
collected 280 signatures and had the backing of a number of charities | :34:17. | :34:20. | |
including the dogs trust, the kennel club and the RSPCA. I was pleased | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
the then Minister for policing, the member for Ashford, visited my | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
constituency and heard first-hand the problems faced by dog owners. I | :34:30. | :34:37. | |
know his support was welcomed by local residents. Anti-social | :34:38. | :34:40. | |
behaviour priming and policing act has since been passed into law, | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
requiring police forces and local authorities and the courts to have | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
greater powers responding to anti-social behaviour involving a | :34:49. | :34:50. | |
dog before the situation becomes dangerous. When considering if they | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
dog is a danger to public safety the court has to consider a number of | :34:56. | :34:59. | |
circumstances, including whether the owner and person in charge is fit | :35:00. | :35:03. | |
and a proper person to look after a dog. I am pleased it gives the | :35:04. | :35:06. | |
courts the ability to intervene earlier and prevent attacks on | :35:07. | :35:11. | |
people and other dogs. I recognise the act also strengthens the | :35:12. | :35:13. | |
dangerous dogs act of 1991, to improve the response when a dog | :35:14. | :35:18. | |
presents a risk to public safety. The offence of owning or being in | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
charge of a dog which is dangerously out of control has been extended to | :35:24. | :35:29. | |
all places, including owners homes. The maximum penalty... Yes, of | :35:30. | :35:34. | |
course I will. I thank the honourable lady for giving way. | :35:35. | :35:42. | |
Months ago, the lady will recall, the police had to shoot a dog in the | :35:43. | :35:48. | |
street because it got totally out of control. Another area that concerns | :35:49. | :35:52. | |
me is the fact there have been a number of cases of babies being | :35:53. | :36:00. | |
attacked by dangerous dog. And the present sentence of six months in my | :36:01. | :36:03. | |
view should be extended a lot further. I support everything the | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
lady is saying in this matter. I thank the member very much indeed | :36:09. | :36:11. | |
for his intervention and his support. I think it shows although | :36:12. | :36:16. | |
the chamber may not be packed today, I know from looking at social media | :36:17. | :36:21. | |
this issue is of great concern right across the country, in all of our | :36:22. | :36:26. | |
constituencies. I will come on of course to talk about the fact that | :36:27. | :36:29. | |
sometimes these incidents can lead to personal injury and even fatal | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
incidents involving particularly young children and I will also talk | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
about the sentencing, as well. He made some excellent points. I was | :36:40. | :36:44. | |
talking bout the amendments to the Dangerous Dogs Act of 1991, | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
extending the maximum penalty involving the death of person, the | :36:49. | :36:52. | |
penalty to 14 years, five years were a person is injured and three years | :36:53. | :36:55. | |
in any case involving the death or injury of an assistance dog. This is | :36:56. | :37:00. | |
welcome news but does not give the same legal rights for dogs when they | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
are attacked as it does for humans and guide and assistance dogs. It is | :37:05. | :37:08. | |
important all dogs have the same protections and local authorities | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
and the police at the power to properly punish the owner of the dog | :37:14. | :37:16. | |
responsible. I would be interested to hear more about the minister's | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
current thinking on this matter. As well as the anti-social behaviour | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
crime and policing act, ministers have also introduced powers to help | :37:26. | :37:28. | |
front line professionals tackle anti-social behaviour involving | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
dogs. Police and local authorities can now intervene and issue | :37:33. | :37:36. | |
community protection notices if a dog is causing a nuisance by | :37:37. | :37:40. | |
repeatedly escaping or being aggressive. Owners of such dogs can | :37:41. | :37:45. | |
be required to take remedial action, such as attending training classes, | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
keeping the dog on a lead in public or repairing fences to prevent the | :37:51. | :37:53. | |
dog leaving their property. It is clearly a step in the right | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
direction. It brings me onto the other reason I applied for this | :37:58. | :38:00. | |
debate and one in which I know the Minister is currently working on. In | :38:01. | :38:04. | |
order for local authorities and police forces to successfully tackle | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
this problem with the existing powers the Government has provided | :38:09. | :38:12. | |
them with, they need to be made properly aware of them. I know last | :38:13. | :38:17. | |
December the Department for environment food and rural affairs | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
animal welfare issued a voluntary survey to police forces, local | :38:23. | :38:26. | |
authorities and social landlords on measures to address dog control and | :38:27. | :38:29. | |
reduce dog attacks in England. The aim was to inform the team of the | :38:30. | :38:33. | |
effectiveness of existing measures and allow them to identify how | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
intervention can be made more effective with a minimal burden on | :38:38. | :38:40. | |
enforcement agencies. I look forward to hearing the outcome of the | :38:41. | :38:46. | |
survey. The council in my own constituency has responded to the | :38:47. | :38:48. | |
survey had raised interesting points which I would like to raise with the | :38:49. | :38:54. | |
Minister today. I know they feel the incremental approach to processing | :38:55. | :38:57. | |
dog attacks as well as the need to prove persistence makes the process | :38:58. | :39:00. | |
lengthy. That often leads to frustration for the victim. The need | :39:01. | :39:06. | |
to prove a breach of process means the dog has to attack three times | :39:07. | :39:08. | |
before the owner can face the ultimate sanction of being | :39:09. | :39:13. | |
prosecuted. That is clearly a concern. It provides the opportunity | :39:14. | :39:16. | |
for a dangerous dog to attack two more times, as the member has talked | :39:17. | :39:21. | |
about, potentially with tragical fatal consequences for another dog | :39:22. | :39:27. | |
or even a child or an adult. That is sadly what happened in another case | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
I am assisting with. The niece of my constituent Lexi Branson was killed | :39:33. | :39:36. | |
by a dog, a four-year-old, at the home of my constituency -- in my | :39:37. | :39:45. | |
constituency. The owner was not aware the dog had previously | :39:46. | :39:48. | |
attacked another dog. While I will raise the specific issues from this | :39:49. | :39:53. | |
case with the minister separately I wanted to mention it today because | :39:54. | :39:56. | |
it demonstrates the need for urgent action to be taken to make sure a | :39:57. | :39:59. | |
dangerous dog is not free to attack again. I cannot emphasise enough | :40:00. | :40:03. | |
that just because a dog is attacked another dog does not mean they might | :40:04. | :40:09. | |
not later attack a human and involve serious injury or potentially fatal | :40:10. | :40:12. | |
consequences. One fatal incident is one too many. I welcome the | :40:13. | :40:17. | |
minister's comments on this matter. Yes, of course. I will give way to | :40:18. | :40:23. | |
the honourable member. Should we make sure we do not have an | :40:24. | :40:29. | |
imbalance? There is also the side of human beings being cruel to dogs. I | :40:30. | :40:35. | |
hope she agrees with me and the Minister will say something about | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
the Battersea proposals. I thank the member for his intervention. He is | :40:41. | :40:44. | |
absolutely right. I welcome the Battersea home, the cats and dogs | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
home campaign, to stiffen sentences for animal cruelty. There are some | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
truly terrible cases of animals being mistreated. I did not want to | :40:53. | :40:58. | |
labour the point but there is the issue of irresponsible owners. I | :40:59. | :41:02. | |
suspect we have all had situations as candidates and we will maybe in | :41:03. | :41:07. | |
the next few weeks when we walked down a path, knock on a door, and | :41:08. | :41:11. | |
deliver a leaflet and be faced with a rather angry looking dog. You're | :41:12. | :41:17. | |
never entirely sure, because the owner says it is friendly, I see Mr | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
Lee is smiling, whether it is friendly or has an appetite for | :41:23. | :41:28. | |
canvassers. The honourable member speaks from personal experience! | :41:29. | :41:34. | |
Returning to what I was saying about the survey, the council found the | :41:35. | :41:37. | |
guide is very helpful but they feel sometimes it is too generic. For | :41:38. | :41:42. | |
example the behaviour orders are difficult to apply to cases | :41:43. | :41:45. | |
involving a dog. They suggested it would be useful if the guidance was | :41:46. | :41:49. | |
more specific for dogs as living beings rather than property. And the | :41:50. | :41:53. | |
issues arise for the welfare and cost of keeping a dog when action, | :41:54. | :42:00. | |
and they would also have advice on escalating cases where there is no | :42:01. | :42:03. | |
other option but for the owner to forfeit the dog. I am pleased the | :42:04. | :42:07. | |
council have a good compliance rate of around 91% when issuing warnings | :42:08. | :42:12. | |
to owners at the first stage of a community protection notice. But the | :42:13. | :42:17. | |
council feel there was a lack of clarity in the Government's guidance | :42:18. | :42:20. | |
for whether or not a case should be handled by the police under the | :42:21. | :42:24. | |
Dangerous Dogs Act or as a civil case by the local authority. I note | :42:25. | :42:29. | |
the Leicestershire local authorities have a memorandum of understanding | :42:30. | :42:32. | |
with the local police about who handles each type of dog attack. But | :42:33. | :42:36. | |
the council have said they would like to have more formal guidance. I | :42:37. | :42:38. | |
would be grateful if the Minister would consider it these points as | :42:39. | :42:44. | |
part of the Department review. It is clear these dogs continue to be a | :42:45. | :42:47. | |
serious problem in local communities. I should say that of | :42:48. | :42:50. | |
course there are many tens of thousands of dogs walked responsibly | :42:51. | :42:55. | |
every day and their owners take great responsibility for them and go | :42:56. | :42:59. | |
about their daily lives with no incidents or trouble whatsoever. | :43:00. | :43:05. | |
Yes, there is a problem. The Freedom of information act numbers show | :43:06. | :43:10. | |
there is a serious level of incidents, but I also want to pay | :43:11. | :43:13. | |
tribute to those who look after their dogs well and deal with any | :43:14. | :43:16. | |
aggression and take responsibility for them. | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
Whilst I want to mention the positive work the previous and | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
current governments have carried out, I do believe that it needs to | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
be tightened further to ensure that attacks on other dogs are a criminal | :43:31. | :43:37. | |
offence. As I have said, it is crucial that local authorities and | :43:38. | :43:40. | |
police forces have comprehensive guidance available to them which | :43:41. | :43:44. | |
details all the powers at their disposal to prevent the very real | :43:45. | :43:49. | |
and tragic consequences that can arise when dangerous dogs attacked | :43:50. | :43:52. | |
it up I'm grateful to the Health Authority is for allowing me to | :43:53. | :43:55. | |
bring Mr Bates the chamber this morning. I know that the Minister is | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
committed to animal welfare and all related issues and I look forward to | :44:00. | :44:05. | |
hearing his response to this debate. Thank you very much. I would like to | :44:06. | :44:09. | |
begin by congratulating my right honourable friend for securing this | :44:10. | :44:16. | |
debate with police force and local authority guidance on police dogs | :44:17. | :44:20. | |
attacking other dogs. I certainly understand that it must be | :44:21. | :44:21. | |
incredibly traumatic for owners whose dogs have been attacked by | :44:22. | :44:27. | |
other dogs, particularly as the owner is often a witness of that | :44:28. | :44:31. | |
attack and I'd like to express my sympathy to her constituents and the | :44:32. | :44:35. | |
owners of Ozzy the dog for the incident she describes and also her | :44:36. | :44:41. | |
other constituent, the terrier that was attacked by a Rhodesian Ridge | :44:42. | :44:44. | |
back and I completely understand that this is a very distressing | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
time. It is completely acceptable for owners to allow their dogs to be | :44:50. | :44:52. | |
dangerously out of control, whether around people or other animals, and | :44:53. | :44:59. | |
attacks of this sort can affect the confidence of animals and can lead | :45:00. | :45:03. | |
to instances where dogs start to change their behaviour and be afraid | :45:04. | :45:10. | |
of going out. Over recent years the law on out-of-control dogs has been | :45:11. | :45:15. | |
strengthened. This is an area that the government looked at quite | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
closely. The dangerous dogs at me to 91 now applies the offence of | :45:20. | :45:22. | |
allowing a dog to be dangerously out of control to all places, not just | :45:23. | :45:30. | |
public places or a place where dogs have no right to be. This means dogs | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
need to be under control in all places and at all times and this has | :45:35. | :45:38. | |
particular relevance to those of us who will be delivering leaflets and | :45:39. | :45:42. | |
going onto urine's property. We've all had experiences of dogs in most | :45:43. | :45:48. | |
circumstances, I'm sure. The law also makes it a specific offence of | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
allowing a dog attack on in assistance dog, for which a maximum | :45:53. | :45:58. | |
penalty is three years imprisonment. The right honourable lady pointed | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
out this was a new point that we introduced recently and the reason | :46:03. | :46:05. | |
for specifically including an offence in relation to attack some | :46:06. | :46:10. | |
assistance dogs was to emphasise the dependence upon which people who use | :46:11. | :46:16. | |
these dogs have on their assistance dog and it was therefore considered | :46:17. | :46:21. | |
that I must attack on an assistance dog in these circumstances was an | :46:22. | :46:25. | |
aggravated attack and almost an attack by extension on the person | :46:26. | :46:30. | |
themselves. There are real problems with attacks on assistance dogs. A | :46:31. | :46:34. | |
huge amount of work goes into training these dogs and there have | :46:35. | :46:38. | |
been many sad examples where, despite all of that work to train an | :46:39. | :46:44. | |
assistance dog, it loses its confidence to be able to do that job | :46:45. | :46:50. | |
and has to be retired from duty as a result of a single one of the tax. | :46:51. | :46:53. | |
That is why we took the view that there was a very special case in the | :46:54. | :46:59. | |
incidence of assistance dogs. Other penalties under the 1991 act were | :47:00. | :47:03. | |
also increased significantly, in particular the maximum penalty for | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
allowing a dog out of control was increased from two years' | :47:09. | :47:11. | |
imprisonment to 14 years in cases where it results in the death of the | :47:12. | :47:16. | |
victim and five years' imprisonment where the victim suffered serious | :47:17. | :47:20. | |
injuries. Other laws also introduced as preventative measures. Under the | :47:21. | :47:28. | |
anti-social crime and behaviour act 2014, Elisa and local authorities | :47:29. | :47:32. | |
were allowed to take action in low-level incidents of anti-social | :47:33. | :47:35. | |
behaviour, including where these involved adopted mock these of the | :47:36. | :47:38. | |
incidents where a dog is causing a nuisance but no offences under the | :47:39. | :47:43. | |
dangerous dogs at. In such circumstances, police or local | :47:44. | :47:47. | |
authorities can take action by issuing a community protection | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
notice or CPN to the owner or person in charge of the dog at the time to | :47:52. | :47:55. | |
control the dog and stop the nuisance behaviour. Failure to | :47:56. | :48:03. | |
comply with a CPN can lead to a fine of ?2500. This power means that | :48:04. | :48:07. | |
police and local authorities can take action before a dog becomes | :48:08. | :48:13. | |
dangerously out of control. Criticism of the dangerous dog that | :48:14. | :48:16. | |
was that it only dealt with the issues after they had happened and | :48:17. | :48:21. | |
many animal welfare organisations, dog keeping groups and veterinary | :48:22. | :48:24. | |
organisations campaigned for the introduction of these types of | :48:25. | :48:31. | |
notices. For more serious incidents of anti-social behaviour, such as | :48:32. | :48:34. | |
using a dog to actually intimidate someone, there is the criminal | :48:35. | :48:40. | |
behavioural order. This will be used in cases where a court is satisfied | :48:41. | :48:43. | |
that an individual has engaged in behaviour that has caused or is | :48:44. | :48:47. | |
likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress and finally, for more | :48:48. | :48:50. | |
general matters, there are public spaces production orders, which | :48:51. | :48:54. | |
place restrictions on dogs using clearly defined areas like | :48:55. | :48:58. | |
children's playground areas and sports fields, and these are aimed | :48:59. | :49:03. | |
at all dogs, rather than individuals. I note that my right | :49:04. | :49:10. | |
honourable friend the Member for Loughborough has reported that | :49:11. | :49:12. | |
Sharnbrook Borough council wanted to see specific guidance on the | :49:13. | :49:20. | |
measures. I would say that in October 2014, to assist local | :49:21. | :49:23. | |
authorities and the police, Defra published a practitioners' manual | :49:24. | :49:29. | |
dealing with the responsible dog ownership, which provides | :49:30. | :49:32. | |
practitioners with very specific guidance on how to use the | :49:33. | :49:35. | |
anti-social behaviour measures specifically in relation to dogs and | :49:36. | :49:39. | |
I would point out that I was a minister in Defra at the time, not | :49:40. | :49:42. | |
with responsibility for this part of the portfolio, but we did have a | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
debate in 2014 where a number of people were saying we should adopt | :49:48. | :49:52. | |
measures similar to Stockport, where they had specific dog production | :49:53. | :49:56. | |
orders. Our legal analysis was that these community protection orders | :49:57. | :50:02. | |
are surplus but in the light of whether people raised concerns about | :50:03. | :50:06. | |
whether this could be applied to dogs I asked my noble friend, the | :50:07. | :50:11. | |
then minister for dogs, to address this issue that what prompted this | :50:12. | :50:16. | |
guidance that was set at the time in 2014, almost three years ago. The | :50:17. | :50:23. | |
practitioners' manual differs from the Home Office guidance doctrine, | :50:24. | :50:26. | |
which was aimed at the broader use of anti-social measures, and was | :50:27. | :50:31. | |
perhaps what Charnwood Borough council referred to. My department's | :50:32. | :50:38. | |
practitioners' manual can be found on God .uk but I will ensure that | :50:39. | :50:43. | |
after this debate, I will arrange for my office to send her office a | :50:44. | :50:53. | |
paper copy. -- on gov.uk. I thank him for giving way. Would he express | :50:54. | :51:01. | |
a view on the Battersea proposals? I have heard lots of proposals from | :51:02. | :51:06. | |
Battersea. I'm not quite sure which ones he had in mind. But I would | :51:07. | :51:10. | |
come back to my point that we did issue very specific guidance when it | :51:11. | :51:17. | |
comes to how the CPN Looe could be used. Will give way so we can | :51:18. | :51:21. | |
clarify. The proposal for longer sentences for people who abuse | :51:22. | :51:28. | |
animals. I would prefer him to a debate that took place on this very | :51:29. | :51:32. | |
matter a few weeks ago. I would point out that the Sentencing | :51:33. | :51:38. | |
Council has just recently issued new guidance which took place this week | :51:39. | :51:43. | |
and that makes it far easier for courts to award custodial sentences | :51:44. | :51:46. | |
at the upper end of the range for these sorts of offences but | :51:47. | :51:50. | |
sentencing is a matter for the ministry of justice and I'm sure | :51:51. | :51:56. | |
they keep these issues under review. My right honourable friend also | :51:57. | :51:59. | |
mentioned, all gave reference to the fact that police claimed that there | :52:00. | :52:03. | |
needed to be a three strikes rule and unless the dog had attacked | :52:04. | :52:07. | |
three times, prosecutions could be brought or, indeed, a CPN could not | :52:08. | :52:12. | |
be used, and I am reliably informed by my officials that this is not the | :52:13. | :52:16. | |
case. There is nothing in the law that says there must be three | :52:17. | :52:20. | |
offences. The dangerous dogs at can be used in the first time there is | :52:21. | :52:28. | |
an offence it comes to community protection notices, there was | :52:29. | :52:30. | |
nothing in the law that stipulate there must be three offences before | :52:31. | :52:34. | |
they can issue those. I think there is an issue here, which I was going | :52:35. | :52:38. | |
to come unto, around enforcement, and there may be an issue of police | :52:39. | :52:42. | |
forces that are reluctant to look at these issues because they believe | :52:43. | :52:47. | |
there are other things they wish to focus on and they come up with | :52:48. | :52:50. | |
internal operational procedures of this sort, but these ones created by | :52:51. | :52:57. | |
the police, not a matter of law. I will give way to talk Can feminists | :52:58. | :53:03. | |
are very much indeed for the clarification. I think it's really | :53:04. | :53:08. | |
helpful to hear that. I will pursue it with Charnwood Borough council | :53:09. | :53:12. | |
but I think Charnwood is a very responsible authority and they have | :53:13. | :53:16. | |
worked closely with Leicestershire Police so they are labouring under | :53:17. | :53:19. | |
some misapprehensions, I suspect that is very widespread amongst | :53:20. | :53:22. | |
local authorities and police forces, and one of the purposes of today's | :53:23. | :53:27. | |
debate was that MPs to express their concerns and for the Minister to | :53:28. | :53:29. | |
show how seriously the government takes the sorts of incident and I | :53:30. | :53:34. | |
were wonder whether he might think it is worthwhile to write a local | :53:35. | :53:39. | |
authorities to reiterate some of the powers they do have. My right | :53:40. | :53:42. | |
honourable friend is absolutely right and I very much welcome this | :53:43. | :53:46. | |
debate and it is timely because as a minister in Defra in 2014, I felt we | :53:47. | :53:50. | |
had addressed this issue by issuing the practitioners' guidance but, as | :53:51. | :53:58. | |
she alluded to, whilst we accept that the powers are available for | :53:59. | :54:02. | |
local authorities to use in all sorts of situations where dogs are | :54:03. | :54:05. | |
causing problems, I accept that there are many instances of dogs | :54:06. | :54:10. | |
being out of control and that is why, as she pointed out, my | :54:11. | :54:13. | |
department has been looking at whether the powers are being used by | :54:14. | :54:17. | |
the police and local authorities and, if so, what sort of effect they | :54:18. | :54:22. | |
are having, and that is why we did issue a voluntary survey. We have | :54:23. | :54:25. | |
invited all police forces and local authorities in England and Wales to | :54:26. | :54:29. | |
respond to this and about the use of these anti-social measures. I can | :54:30. | :54:33. | |
say that we've received many responses to the survey, which we | :54:34. | :54:38. | |
are currently analysing. I'm told we expect the bat analysis by the end | :54:39. | :54:43. | |
of May, so while we are all busy avoiding dogs on the doorstep during | :54:44. | :54:46. | |
the election campaign, officials will be studying those responses. | :54:47. | :54:51. | |
But I understand that initial indications and impressions from the | :54:52. | :54:57. | |
evidence that we have received is that there remains some | :54:58. | :55:00. | |
misunderstanding about the powers that are already available to local | :55:01. | :55:04. | |
authorities and police forces and if that is the case, obviously, we | :55:05. | :55:07. | |
would want to make sure that we raise their awareness about the | :55:08. | :55:12. | |
powers they have. The focus of this debate is obviously on dog on dog | :55:13. | :55:16. | |
attacks. As I mentioned at the start of my speech, section three of the | :55:17. | :55:21. | |
dangerous dogs act makes it an offence to allow a dog to be | :55:22. | :55:24. | |
dangerously out of control regardless of where it is and it has | :55:25. | :55:29. | |
been a long held belief among enforcement agencies that so-called | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
dog on dog incidents cannot be dealt with under the 1991 act, we do not | :55:34. | :55:39. | |
believe this is the case. The 1991 act rides a definition of when a dog | :55:40. | :55:42. | |
must be regarded as dangerously out of control. This refers to a dog | :55:43. | :55:46. | |
being dangerously out of control when there are grounds for | :55:47. | :55:49. | |
reasonable apprehension that it will attack someone. However, this | :55:50. | :55:54. | |
definition is not exclusive and the words of section three of the 1999 | :55:55. | :56:00. | |
-- 1991 act could include, for example, where a dog attacks another | :56:01. | :56:04. | |
dog or a dog attacked another animal. There is some case law in | :56:05. | :56:09. | |
this area. In 2008 cup in a Court of Appeal judgment, it was specifically | :56:10. | :56:13. | |
pointed out that the definition of dangerously out of control dog in | :56:14. | :56:17. | |
section ten of the dangerous dog is not exclusive, and made clear that | :56:18. | :56:21. | |
the ordinary meaning of the words in section three of the act should be | :56:22. | :56:26. | |
applied to any given circumstances and specifically in one case, | :56:27. | :56:34. | |
regarding a particular case, the court said they were inclined to go | :56:35. | :56:38. | |
further and in the event, the definitions of section ten were not | :56:39. | :56:43. | |
exclusive and does not read as a matter of construction that for the | :56:44. | :56:46. | |
purposes of the act dog shall only be regarded as dangerously out of | :56:47. | :56:52. | |
control, and then proceeds to the definition. Therefore, we feel | :56:53. | :56:54. | |
entitled to go back to the straightforward words used of | :56:55. | :56:59. | |
section three. Our lawyers believe that this does indeed mean that | :57:00. | :57:02. | |
there are instances of where the dangerous to it could be used for | :57:03. | :57:09. | |
attacks of dogs on dogs but I appreciate that there is a widely | :57:10. | :57:13. | |
held view that it cannot be and this is something at our officials can | :57:14. | :57:15. | |
consider as part of their wider review of the evidence we have from | :57:16. | :57:23. | |
the survey I mentioned earlier. In conclusion, I would like to | :57:24. | :57:25. | |
congratulate my right honourable friend for this very timely debate. | :57:26. | :57:30. | |
I'm sure the contribution that she and others have made will be taken | :57:31. | :57:35. | |
on board by my officials and considered as they reflect on the | :57:36. | :57:39. | |
survey that they are looking at now. Although, as I've explained, I do | :57:40. | :57:44. | |
that the law already allows police and local authorities to take action | :57:45. | :57:49. | |
in incidences involving dangerously out of control or just nuisance | :57:50. | :57:54. | |
dogs, I completely agree that there are some issues around consistency | :57:55. | :57:57. | |
of enforcement and that is why we have this review going on, this | :57:58. | :58:03. | |
survey going on, and I look forward to seeing the results of that and I | :58:04. | :58:06. | |
have no doubt that my right honourable friend will follow that | :58:07. | :58:07. | |
closely. Order, order, Derek Thomas to move | :58:08. | :58:29. | |
the motion. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I beg | :58:30. | :58:34. | |
to move that this House considers employment opportunities in food and | :58:35. | :58:37. | |
farming. The agriculture sector is essential to the social, cultural | :58:38. | :58:42. | |
and economic landscape of this nation. Food production and farming | :58:43. | :58:46. | |
provides a valuable and abuse and in helping to feed the nation but also | :58:47. | :58:50. | |
provides employment, preserve and maintain our countryside and also | :58:51. | :58:57. | |
contributes to tourism. Agriculture provides a bedrock for the UK food | :58:58. | :59:00. | |
and drink sector, the largest manufacturing sector in the UK, 3.9 | :59:01. | :59:05. | |
million jobs and opportunities across the country. There are | :59:06. | :59:11. | |
476,000 people employed in agricultural things across the UK | :59:12. | :59:14. | |
including full-time, part-time and seasonal workers. Four West | :59:15. | :59:19. | |
Cornwall, the contribution of agriculture sector is hugely | :59:20. | :59:23. | |
important. 1.4 billion of the Southwest economic output was | :59:24. | :59:27. | |
accounted for by the agricultural sector. This includes 8800 | :59:28. | :59:34. | |
agricultural businesses and 27,300 employees. Working in farming or | :59:35. | :59:40. | |
fishing can be an exciting career choice offering a huge career | :59:41. | :59:51. | |
choice. It is constantly innovating and is an important contributor to | :59:52. | :59:54. | |
the national economy. I will give way. He is very kind but could I say | :59:55. | :00:03. | |
that as the chairman of the manufacturing group of MPs that I | :00:04. | :00:13. | |
agree entirely that it is a major area of manufacturing. His brilliant | :00:14. | :00:21. | |
provision in Cornwall has been responsible for the great skills we | :00:22. | :00:24. | |
had and I wish we had as good all over the country. Thank you, Mr | :00:25. | :00:33. | |
Walker. You are right about the sheer scale of the manufacturing and | :00:34. | :00:43. | |
the good work that FE does in Cornwall. But agriculture is spread | :00:44. | :00:50. | |
across the country rather than being concentrated in one area. I am most | :00:51. | :00:56. | |
grateful. Does he agree with me that British farmers will be able to | :00:57. | :00:59. | |
promote themselves and their products far more effectively when | :01:00. | :01:05. | |
we leave the EU and gain control of food labelling? You may be aware I | :01:06. | :01:16. | |
made a debate here about that subject, about food security, and we | :01:17. | :01:24. | |
can do that through clear labelling. Consumers can know what they're | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
buying, that we looking after animal welfare and the environment. Leaving | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
the EU allows us to provide direction and clarity about those | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
things. It is a global industry that uses cutting-edge technology, | :01:40. | :01:42. | |
constantly innovating and is important contributor to the | :01:43. | :01:46. | |
national economy. The food sector generates 1.8 billion in the Valley | :01:47. | :01:54. | |
of UK plc. Jobs in the sector can be engineered, scientists, farm | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
managers and vets. It is clear that the industry, like any industry, | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
will need a ready supply of new entrants and new ideas, energy and | :02:03. | :02:08. | |
enthusiasm. As the industry becomes increasingly technologically driven | :02:09. | :02:11. | |
and more reliant on its ability to understand and implement the latest | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
science, businesses across the sector will need to have the right | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
mix of skills amongst their employees. I congratulate him for | :02:20. | :02:28. | |
securing this important debate. As the chairman of the all-party group | :02:29. | :02:31. | |
for youth employment, we look at unemployment stats every month and | :02:32. | :02:35. | |
there are over half a million young people unemployed. Does he agree | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
this is a great opportunity within the sector to tap into some of that | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
talent to help up skill then and give them a place in the working | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
world? I am sure the Minister will want to comment but I am sure there | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
are jobs to be filled in the sector, certainly in my part of the world | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
and I know that the challenge around offering these jobs to these young | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
people is that they are properly prepared for the work and from | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
school they can understand what is required and have skills needed. I | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
know employers will provide opportunities and training. I will | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
later come to looking at apprenticeships and opportunities. | :03:17. | :03:25. | |
Thank you for giving me a chance to intervene. I want to say that you | :03:26. | :03:31. | |
talked about jobs. We have 70,000 jobs in the agriculture sector in | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
Northern Ireland. 50,000 farmers and workers, 22 thousand 500 involved in | :03:38. | :03:43. | |
food and drink processing. It's worth 20% of Northern Ireland's | :03:44. | :03:49. | |
cross product. Does the honourable gentleman fuel that whether we leave | :03:50. | :03:55. | |
the EU, when Brexit comes forward, that agri- food sector can grow any | :03:56. | :04:06. | |
more? I will come opportunities to invest and grow and encourage the | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
food and farming production. I also recognise there is a growing | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
population here and across the world, so the UK has an opportunity | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
to rise to that challenge and make sure people wherever they live have | :04:21. | :04:23. | |
the opportunity to have the food they need to survive. I think there | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
is a real opportunity and moral responsibility to invest and empower | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
food and farming to deliver the needs that are growing. So far we | :04:35. | :04:40. | |
have concentrated on agriculture and it is natural to do that but it is | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
important we do not forget the contribution of the fishing industry | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
both economically and socially. In 2015, fishing contributed ?604 | :04:50. | :04:55. | |
million to the UK GDP and just over 12,000 fishermen were employed or | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
fishing expertise. Need to be careful here. Half of which were | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
based in England alone. You just have to visit new when in my | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
constituency where there are 40 acres of harbour, to see all kinds | :05:11. | :05:18. | |
of boats to realise how essential fishing is to the region. It is fair | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
to say that in fishing and farming, like other parts of the food chain, | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
face a number of challenges when attracting the right number of | :05:27. | :05:33. | |
quality -- right number and quality of new entrants. Some challenges | :05:34. | :05:36. | |
relate to the perception of these jobs being low skilled, low paid | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
with lack of career opportunities and being hard physical labour in | :05:42. | :05:44. | |
all weathers. At school I was frowned upon for opting for | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
evocation of career, construction sector for me, rather than going to | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
university. Times have changed and we must recognise a job in the | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
countryside is worthwhile and has many benefits other careers to not | :05:59. | :06:05. | |
offer. He makes are really strong case for fishing and farming, an | :06:06. | :06:13. | |
essential part of the economy in Yorkshire. Will he address as we | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
come towards the election the deep uncertainty amongst the farming and | :06:19. | :06:21. | |
fishing community about what will replace the present system of farm | :06:22. | :06:30. | |
subsidies and fishing rights? We have to tell 4pm. What I will say is | :06:31. | :06:36. | |
I am not gifted with that particular answer but I would say that if we | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
can encourage our farmers and fishermen to continue to care for | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
the environment, provide the food we need and provide the skilled jobs we | :06:45. | :06:47. | |
need then I can't see any reason why the Government wouldn't support that | :06:48. | :06:55. | |
of any colour. And what I think we are very should be proud of and talk | :06:56. | :07:03. | |
more about is the equality and diversity of what we produce, | :07:04. | :07:05. | |
whether it is a small business food producer, a large producer that | :07:06. | :07:11. | |
other people round the world deserve to know about and get their hands | :07:12. | :07:14. | |
on. That is how I would like to approach leaving the EU, Mr Walker. | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
If I can make some progress. Other considerations including the rural | :07:20. | :07:26. | |
location of farming businesses and costs of rural housing. Many young | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
learners consider it is only a career for those with a rural | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
background. Fewer and fewer individuals are interested in | :07:37. | :07:38. | |
pursuing a career in this sector and it is for this reason I wish to hold | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
this debate. We appear to be facing what could be termed as a | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
generational crisis within the farming, fishing and food sector. | :07:48. | :07:56. | |
According to death trap, only -- death -- according to Defra, only | :07:57. | :08:13. | |
13% of farmers... He is making a good point. Whilst there has been | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
tremendous success for the Government and expanding | :08:18. | :08:26. | |
apprenticeship and other sectors I wonder what his thoughts would be | :08:27. | :08:29. | |
about taking a holistic view of looking at the sector generally and | :08:30. | :08:36. | |
looking at getting young people engaged in training courses. I have | :08:37. | :08:43. | |
done some work on that. Last year I brought 36 producers, many of them | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
farmers, into Westminster Hall just to celebrate the wonderful work they | :08:49. | :08:55. | |
do developing their produce, and I was really wishing to expose their | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
produce to the London market. We must celebrate all avenues of the | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
sector so that more people see the opportunity that site is there for | :09:06. | :09:07. | |
them. Additional data from the | :09:08. | :09:23. | |
Department's farm business survey in 2013/14 says the greatest barrier to | :09:24. | :09:27. | |
individuals wanting to join the farmers set to whether | :09:28. | :09:33. | |
non-competitiveness of salaries for 64%, 55% responded to their was a | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
lack of job opportunities and 55 said it was due to not owning a | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
family farm. We must increase our efforts to change the perception of | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
the sector to help attract new entrants and come up with solutions | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
and attract assistance for young people to overcome barriers in the | :09:52. | :09:54. | |
industry. I will be interested to hear what has been done since the | :09:55. | :09:57. | |
release of these figures in an effort to address their concerns. | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
There are examples of initiatives to address this. The industrywide | :10:02. | :10:09. | |
careers initiative that seeks to inform school pupils, careers | :10:10. | :10:12. | |
advisers about the range of careers across the industry. Other industry | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
careers campaigns should be coordinated around this initiative | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
to provide consistent information to help inform and inspire young people | :10:23. | :10:25. | |
about careers in the sector, outlining clear career frameworks | :10:26. | :10:31. | |
that show progression. We need young people and others of all ages in the | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
food and farming and fishing sectors as they bring ambition and | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
creativity. Events over the last decade have demonstrated that the | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
issue of food security should not be overlooked. As a nation we are still | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
dependent on food imports. The nation 's farmers only produce 60% | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
of what the nation could produce. 61%. Whilst productivity has risen | :10:54. | :11:03. | |
at 1.5% per year, we need young and highly skilled farmers to come up | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
with ways to keep this increasing. We need technically savvy | :11:09. | :11:11. | |
entrepreneurs and driven young people to utilise the | :11:12. | :11:18. | |
state-of-the-art technology available and GPS mapping systems to | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
high-tech milk machines to keep British farming at the cutting edge | :11:24. | :11:25. | |
and fill these demands. In addition, due to the current uncertainty in | :11:26. | :11:32. | |
the value of sterling, retailers and consumers are looking closer to home | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
to meet their needs. The creativity of young people would also help | :11:37. | :11:39. | |
farms across the UK achieved their diversity goals shone in a Visit | :11:40. | :11:49. | |
England survey in 2016. 16% were looking at contracting, ... | :11:50. | :11:57. | |
Personally, I meet regularly with fishermen and farmers and their | :11:58. | :12:00. | |
representatives. On Friday last week I met with the NFU and local farmers | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
and discussed the skills gap at length. The NFU is a founding member | :12:05. | :12:13. | |
of a body that helps respond to the skills gap by responding with skills | :12:14. | :12:20. | |
and lifelong learning. It is important as people enter the | :12:21. | :12:23. | |
industry that they are encouraged to undertake professional developer and | :12:24. | :12:25. | |
to help them progress in their careers. Continued emphasis on | :12:26. | :12:31. | |
lifelong learning and development will only help to attract new | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
entrants and retain skills in the industry. The agricultural industry | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
has put significant effort in working towards this goal with the | :12:40. | :12:43. | |
launch of training and professional development schemes across different | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
sectors, for example with very sector has -- the dairy sector... My | :12:48. | :12:59. | |
concern is that not a lot has been done within schools, careers advice | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
and across government departments to promote careers and opportunities | :13:05. | :13:08. | |
within the sector. Having said this, I joined hundreds of children at an | :13:09. | :13:18. | |
open farm Dave at the invitation of the local farmer. It was an | :13:19. | :13:20. | |
opportunity to see first-hand how our food is produced and what | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
careers are available in food and farming. | :13:25. | :13:30. | |
I also took my family to a local farm for the open from Sunday. These | :13:31. | :13:36. | |
are successful initiatives to increase public awareness of farming | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
and food production. These initiatives are helpful to dismiss | :13:41. | :13:46. | |
the image of something similar to the character of Farmer Giles. Those | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
who are not familiar with this gentleman, he is a fat man with a | :13:51. | :13:58. | |
red face Hutus on straw and enjoys a slow and comfortable life. This may | :13:59. | :14:04. | |
well be something that each of us cover in the next weeks and I may | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
find that I will be doing that myself on June nine. In reality, | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
farming is far from this. Farmers are dynamic and hard-working members | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
of society and both during my time in this place and in my pursuit to | :14:20. | :14:23. | |
become a member, I have been privileged to discuss with farmers | :14:24. | :14:25. | |
the opportunities and challenges they have and will continue to face. | :14:26. | :14:31. | |
Today it is important that if we are to address the specific challenge of | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
recruitment, we must move away from the image of Farmer Giles, both to | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
help inspire young and talented individuals to look at the sector | :14:41. | :14:43. | |
and to do justice to those who already work in the area. I echo the | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
previous sentiments are made by my right honourable friend the Member | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
for Northamptonshire when she said that she hopes that in future more | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
young people will be encouraged to engage in countryside matters. We | :14:56. | :14:58. | |
must change young people's attitudes towards agricultural sectors and | :14:59. | :15:01. | |
careers and inspire young people to get involved. I'm asking what the | :15:02. | :15:06. | |
government can do. In an age where population growth, as we referred to | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
earlier, has more mouths to feed both here and overseas increasing, | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
and there seem to be more jobs than people, what can the Government do | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
to address the exodus of talent from rural areas, which we are very much | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
aware of in call and the Isle of silly. I'm supporting farmers who | :15:26. | :15:29. | |
say that schools and career services must work with the industry to | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
further promote farming as an aspirational career choice and make | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
better links with stem subjects on their applications in farming. A | :15:38. | :15:43. | |
greater understanding of the range of opportunities in the sector would | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
help dispel the myth that farming is low paid and low skilled. It is | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
important there are opportunities for the industry to engage with | :15:52. | :15:54. | |
organisations such as the careers and enterprise company and for the | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
national careers service to work with the centre to provide | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
continuous careers advice and informed information about career | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
and work prospects in the agricultural sector. Minister, we | :16:07. | :16:13. | |
need a partnership approach with cross-party support in recognising | :16:14. | :16:15. | |
agriculture as an important and attractive sector to be in. This | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
would be of benefit in further challenging the existing perception. | :16:20. | :16:27. | |
In terms of apprenticeships, it is important to recognise that fit for | :16:28. | :16:30. | |
purpose qualifications still have a crucial role to play in | :16:31. | :16:34. | |
apprenticeships of our industry. Whilst in part understanding the | :16:35. | :16:37. | |
Government's aspiration for the apprenticeship being the actual | :16:38. | :16:41. | |
qualification going forward, both employers and apprentices and their | :16:42. | :16:45. | |
parents and families, as a minimum, need a period of transition of | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
allowing the inclusion of qualifications that fall outside the | :16:51. | :16:57. | |
current criteria set by government, was the new trailblazers provide | :16:58. | :17:00. | |
their credentials. I'm asking government to work with employers | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
even more than they are now in the industry to develop a 16-19 skills | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
plan so the vacation and technical qualifications and courses are | :17:10. | :17:18. | |
relevant to the industry. He did say we had a reasonable amount of time | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
to intervene. I don't want to criticise his very good speed but it | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
is a bit male dominated. Is one of the real challenge is how many women | :17:27. | :17:29. | |
are coming in to be farmers, how many women are coming into the | :17:30. | :17:32. | |
sector, and isn't it about time we did something about that? Unsure | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
that young people include men and women but you are right, I accept | :17:37. | :17:42. | |
that. I was talking about a story written several years ago. What | :17:43. | :17:48. | |
encourages me, having said all I said, is that when I'm out and about | :17:49. | :17:51. | |
on the farms and visiting the various businesses working in food | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
and farming, there are a number of young people, particularly girls, | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
engaged in that process. I am a member of the science and tech | :18:01. | :18:03. | |
select committee and we are doing a huge amount of work to understand | :18:04. | :18:06. | |
how to encourage more girls and young women into Stem subjects | :18:07. | :18:09. | |
because there was a real is shortage of them and they provide a | :18:10. | :18:12. | |
particular angle that we must benefit from and can benefit from. | :18:13. | :18:17. | |
On my next point, which might help to encourage the gentleman, and | :18:18. | :18:24. | |
thank you for your intervention. The Department for Education must | :18:25. | :18:26. | |
encourage schools and careers services to work with the industry. | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
It is vital that the department for industry understand that while the | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
five GCSEs we all want our young people to achieve an important, we | :18:35. | :18:38. | |
need to work equally hard within our schools to help young people realise | :18:39. | :18:42. | |
the opportunities available to them outside the school gates, in their | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
local area. This will have a huge benefit in addressing some of the | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
challenges we have and also avoid, for some, the pressures, which I | :18:51. | :19:04. | |
know concerns many people. I want better links with Stem subjects and | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
their applications. To conclude, the agricultural industry has been | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
incredibly resilient and courageous through numerous challenges in the | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
past. The problems faced today require the same attitudes to be | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
adopted. We must be able to maintain the vibrancy of the rural economy | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
and to continue to meet our food security needs. Conflicts overseas | :19:27. | :19:29. | |
and increasing population growth mean that British farming must have | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
the capability to produce the lion's share of the food we need in the | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
nation and in feeding this nation, and young people, both girls and | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
boys, of a real opportunity to meet that challenge. The fishing industry | :19:44. | :19:49. | |
needs fresh blood in the sector, ensuring that youngsters are | :19:50. | :19:51. | |
recruited to fulfil the jobs available in the sector, and this is | :19:52. | :19:57. | |
not only crucial to the future of south-west Cornwall but the entire | :19:58. | :20:01. | |
UK fishing fleet. Thank you. The question is that this House has | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
considered employment opportunities in food and farming. Are any | :20:07. | :20:09. | |
colleagues standing before I moved to the front benches? Well, I'm | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
going to move to the front bench, then. Owen Thompson. Thank you, Mr | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
Walker. Always a pleasure to 70 or chairmanship and can I congratulate | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
the Member for St Ives in securing today's debate. Clearly, farming is | :20:24. | :20:35. | |
a significant employer where seven to present of the landmass is | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
considered rural. Rouble is considered more than a 30 minute | :20:40. | :20:47. | |
Drive from the nearest settlement. Almost one in five of the population | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
of Scotland lives in a rural community. Jobs in the rural sector | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
are therefore incredibly vital to the Scottish economy. It is | :20:58. | :21:03. | |
important that despite the uncertain times that we do continue to support | :21:04. | :21:06. | |
the industry to ensure it has a sustainable footing for the future. | :21:07. | :21:12. | |
Currently, Scotland's natural environment is worth more than 20 | :21:13. | :21:15. | |
billion per annum and supports more than 60,000 jobs. Between 2010 and | :21:16. | :21:21. | |
2015 the total turnover of Scotland's food and drink industry | :21:22. | :21:27. | |
increased from 10 billion to 14.4 billion with exports. In 2016, it | :21:28. | :21:30. | |
was worth 5.5 billion, an increase of 40% since 2007. Scottish food and | :21:31. | :21:35. | |
drink really is going through something of a renaissance at the | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
moment and we can see that and we know that the quality is there | :21:40. | :21:43. | |
within that industry and is something I will come back to later | :21:44. | :21:48. | |
on my comments. But there are also challenges. The average age of | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
Scottish farmers is now around 58, with only 9% of farm occupiers 40 or | :21:54. | :21:59. | |
under. So, as the honourable member for St Ives was highlighting, it is | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
incredibly important we find ways to bring new young people into these | :22:04. | :22:06. | |
industries to make sure that we do have that sustainability and the | :22:07. | :22:15. | |
resilience to continue the support for industries that are so vital to | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
us. In Scotland, the SNP government are very keen to support young | :22:20. | :22:22. | |
people into the industry to make sure the bright young farmers keep | :22:23. | :22:25. | |
the economy going into the future. In April 20 17th, the Scottish | :22:26. | :22:31. | |
government announced a fund of ?2.5 million to help new entrants into | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
farming. Funding will support the next generation of farmers and | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
increase the opportunities for young people to establish a career in | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
agriculture. This latest award will see a final 47 new farming | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
businesses to help them create and develop the business is. One of the | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
biggest challenges of any business in a rural economy is also the | :22:53. | :23:00. | |
access and uptake of broadband. That is something I know we do continue | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
to return to and, as I say, with 98% of Scotland considered rural, the | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
roll-out of broadband to help businesses as we move into a more | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
technical world is critical to help support the running of local rural | :23:16. | :23:23. | |
farming businesses. But we are in an uncertain world just now. The UK | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
vote to leave the EU has created a significant uncertainty in the | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
agricultural sector. The hard Brexit we so often hear about would be | :23:32. | :23:34. | |
absolutely devastating for stretches of Scottish agriculture, cattle and | :23:35. | :23:40. | |
sheep substantially facing high tariffs and lots of subsidy | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
supported talk we would have the risk of future protection of the | :23:45. | :23:49. | |
Scottish protected food names like Scottish beef or Stornoway black | :23:50. | :23:51. | |
pudding. We don't yet know what is going to happen to protected name | :23:52. | :23:59. | |
status. We have a scheme here in the UK, given that Europeans will no | :24:00. | :24:05. | |
longer be accessible to us. We are supporting the common framework that | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
helped supports food safety and reduce nontariff barriers to trade. | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
Jobs and investment opportunities have been put at risk of entering | :24:15. | :24:22. | |
into multi-annual contracts under various schemes and some of | :24:23. | :24:26. | |
Scotland's remote rural communities have fragile populations where EU | :24:27. | :24:32. | |
migration helps to ensure the resilience of these communities and | :24:33. | :24:35. | |
without the ability to have that movement, there is a real risk but | :24:36. | :24:40. | |
not just on the food and farming industries but entire communities | :24:41. | :24:46. | |
across Scotland. The Government's gamble with membership of the EU has | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
created significant uncertainty. We are now facing a loss to much-needed | :24:52. | :24:57. | |
seasonal workers. Agriculture directly employs 65,000 people and | :24:58. | :25:01. | |
underpins a ?14 billion food and drink industry, one of the | :25:02. | :25:03. | |
fastest-growing and most successful sectors of Scotland. Along with | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
other rural businesses, agriculture relies heavily on seasonal workers, | :25:10. | :25:15. | |
yet despite repeated questioning we've not yet had a clear answer for | :25:16. | :25:21. | |
the government for the rights we are protected for the seasonal workers, | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
an estimated five to 15,000 working in the sector annually. Berry | :25:26. | :25:31. | |
picking alone requires a significant number of seasonal workers and more | :25:32. | :25:34. | |
than a third of UK soft fruit comes from Scotland. The industry is | :25:35. | :25:43. | |
clearly facing challenges, VCA CHP payment issues are there, no point | :25:44. | :25:48. | |
trying to pretend otherwise, but that is the euro secretary's number | :25:49. | :25:58. | |
one priority and these things are that the vast majority of farmers | :25:59. | :26:00. | |
and crofters will have received their 2016 baser payments. We | :26:01. | :26:07. | |
understand the NSF US President's frustration regarding the system for | :26:08. | :26:12. | |
payments and that is something that the Cabinet secretary has been | :26:13. | :26:18. | |
keeping him and the NFC West advise all is -- advisers apprised of. The | :26:19. | :26:29. | |
industry with so many opportunities for Scotland growing so quickly, to | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
suddenly come up against the challengers and potential risks that | :26:35. | :26:40. | |
Brexit face to the industry really has put a big question mark. What | :26:41. | :26:51. | |
can we secured to ensure that the food and drink industry is protected | :26:52. | :26:54. | |
Thomas to continue to grow and contribute to the economy? Thank | :26:55. | :27:02. | |
you, Mr Walker and it is an honour to serve under your chairmanship to | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
date. I would like to congratulate the honourable member for St Ives | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
for securing this debate. I think he's demonstrated that he does have | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
a passion for the issue and I would like to particularly highlight, | :27:16. | :27:21. | |
although I'm not the shadow spokesperson for fishing and | :27:22. | :27:23. | |
fisheries, I think it is really important that he has brought that | :27:24. | :27:29. | |
into the debate today and the future of that industry in particular. The | :27:30. | :27:34. | |
debate is particularly important because across the sector, there are | :27:35. | :27:40. | |
serious skill shortages that must be addressed if the industry is to be | :27:41. | :27:45. | |
maintained. Mr Walker, I would like to start by highlighting the | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
situation in the UK food and drink manufacturing industry, which has up | :27:50. | :27:55. | |
to 400,000 direct employees in roles that range from sales and marketing, | :27:56. | :28:00. | |
supply chain and Logistics to production management and | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
engineering, and this is an industry which has enormous potential as a | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
high-value manufacturing sector, using innovative technologies and | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
engineering, digital and life sciences, to meet all the challenges | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
of managing future food supplies and contributing to the wider carbon | :28:20. | :28:21. | |
reduction agenda. This potential is being put at risk. | :28:22. | :28:29. | |
The food and drink Federation have highlighted that by 2024 over a | :28:30. | :28:35. | |
third of the workforce in the sector will retire and 130,000 new recruits | :28:36. | :28:39. | |
will be needed to fill this skills gap. A recent survey by the food and | :28:40. | :28:50. | |
drink Federation revealed that a top five skills gaps were engineers, | :28:51. | :28:53. | |
food scientists and technologists, innovation, including product and | :28:54. | :29:00. | |
process development, leadership and management, and customer service | :29:01. | :29:04. | |
management. Although the ageing workforce and skills gap is not new, | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
there needs to close it has become more urgent. As, like the rest of | :29:09. | :29:15. | |
the agri- food supply chain, food and drink manufacturers currently | :29:16. | :29:20. | |
benefit from bringing in skilled labour from the EU. This represents | :29:21. | :29:25. | |
29% of its workforce or 120,000 workers. A high number of these | :29:26. | :29:31. | |
workers carry out vital production, technical and specialist roles and | :29:32. | :29:39. | |
host Brexit the industry expects there will be future restrictions on | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
accessing non-UK EU workers which will only intensify the skills gap. | :29:44. | :29:50. | |
To address the problem, the industry wants to see coordinated careers | :29:51. | :29:56. | |
action and a more strategic approach to engagement with schools to | :29:57. | :29:59. | |
encourage home-grown talent for the long-term. The Federation is also | :30:00. | :30:05. | |
asking for a technical education reforms including the institutes of | :30:06. | :30:13. | |
technology as proposed levels fall short for the food and drink | :30:14. | :30:17. | |
industry. The Federation hopes to fill its own pledge to increase the | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
apprenticeship workforce in food and drink manufacturing up to 3% from | :30:23. | :30:30. | |
the 1% it currently is, by 2020, and to tackle market failures such as | :30:31. | :30:32. | |
the fragmented apprenticeship provision for the sector and the | :30:33. | :30:39. | |
lack of new standard at level four and above and I hope sincerely that | :30:40. | :30:43. | |
the Minister will get a commitment to address these issues with his | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
appropriate colleagues in the relevant departments as a matter of | :30:48. | :30:53. | |
priority. Mr Walker, 11% of workers in the sector work in agriculture | :30:54. | :30:57. | |
with a high dependence on workers from outside the UK. Up to 80,000 | :30:58. | :31:05. | |
workers come to the UK every year to pick fruit and vegetables, with 98% | :31:06. | :31:11. | |
of these workers coming from the EU. In my own region, farmers in the | :31:12. | :31:15. | |
north-east have told me that they not only rely on workers from abroad | :31:16. | :31:21. | |
from our seasonal jobs but to work on their farms throughout the whole | :31:22. | :31:24. | |
year. While it is important that young people are encouraged to take | :31:25. | :31:31. | |
up agricultural careers, that uncertainty in the sectors about | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
their workforce post Brexit needs urgent assurance from the | :31:37. | :31:40. | |
Government. Farmers have to have the certainty of a good stream of | :31:41. | :31:44. | |
seasonal workers. If the Government will not give in to pressure to | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
reintroduce the seasonal agricultural workers seem then will | :31:49. | :31:55. | |
the ministers say what measures are being put in place to encourage | :31:56. | :31:59. | |
local people to fill these jobs? Will he say that the Government will | :32:00. | :32:07. | |
support schemes such as the ones helping young people in particular | :32:08. | :32:10. | |
access jobs in rural areas when there is no public transport? Can | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
the Minister say how much resource the Government has invested in | :32:16. | :32:22. | |
plugging the gap left in the light of the removal of the scheme at | :32:23. | :32:33. | |
present? I hope the Minister can fully address all issues raised by | :32:34. | :32:41. | |
colleagues in this debate. You will have two minutes once the Minister | :32:42. | :32:47. | |
sits down. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I would | :32:48. | :32:51. | |
like to begin by congratulating my honourable friend, the member from | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
St Ives, for securing this debate which gives us an opportunity to | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
recognise the importance of the food, farming and fisheries sector, | :33:00. | :33:04. | |
which employs around one in seven of all workers in this country. I | :33:05. | :33:08. | |
should start by declaring an interest in that I, as some of my | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
colleagues will know, studied agriculture, I attended an | :33:14. | :33:19. | |
agricultural college in the early 90s and studied for a higher | :33:20. | :33:22. | |
National diploma in commercial horticulture and I did a number of | :33:23. | :33:27. | |
other courses through the local college which was mentioned in the | :33:28. | :33:33. | |
debate earlier, Cornwall College in my constituency, which had some very | :33:34. | :33:39. | |
good work in this area, and I have another college in my area links to | :33:40. | :33:44. | |
Cornwall College, again one of the country's leading agricultural | :33:45. | :33:49. | |
colleges. This is an issue I am passionate about because it is one I | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
choose to study myself, and I think, as I said earlier, the food, farming | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
and fisheries sector provides a huge variety of career opportunities | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
including many requiring stem skills. Food manufacturing is the | :34:03. | :34:11. | |
biggest sector in this country for manufacturing, employing around | :34:12. | :34:14. | |
400,000 people and providing one sixth of the total manufacturing GDA | :34:15. | :34:22. | |
in this country. In the 2016 productivity report, the food and | :34:23. | :34:27. | |
drink Federation estimated 130,000 jobs would have to be filled between | :34:28. | :34:34. | |
2014 and 2024. With food engineers and scientists in demand | :34:35. | :34:38. | |
particularly. Clearly there are great opportunities in the food | :34:39. | :34:41. | |
manufacturing sector reported a's talented young people to build their | :34:42. | :34:47. | |
future careers. Agricultural technologies are transforming | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
farming, creating new types of jobs needing new types of skills. | :34:52. | :34:56. | |
Successful modern farming requires technical proficiency, business | :34:57. | :34:59. | |
acumen and entrepreneur skills. I recently met a group of Tesco Young | :35:00. | :35:05. | |
farmers who were investing in developing their business, | :35:06. | :35:08. | |
leadership and management skills, and their understanding of the wider | :35:09. | :35:11. | |
supply chain issues whilst balancing busy jobs on poultry, dairy, arable | :35:12. | :35:17. | |
and sheep farms. The food and farming sector is also important to | :35:18. | :35:23. | |
our industry that has a presence across the country and it is | :35:24. | :35:27. | |
interesting we have had contributions from the far | :35:28. | :35:30. | |
south-west and also from the other end of the country, from Midlothian, | :35:31. | :35:37. | |
and Yorkshire, talking about the importance of this sector to their | :35:38. | :35:43. | |
own area. I know it is a significant employer in Cornwall. I have a | :35:44. | :35:47. | |
number of important food manufacturing businesses, clotted | :35:48. | :35:50. | |
cream and fisheries, in my constituency. Farming alone employs | :35:51. | :35:56. | |
around 64,000 people in the south-west and food from Cornwall | :35:57. | :36:04. | |
lists more than 330 businesses producing quality food and drink, | :36:05. | :36:10. | |
famous for the clotted cream, Cornish pasties but also Cornish | :36:11. | :36:16. | |
sardines or pilchards and oysters. Sardines and oysters leads me to | :36:17. | :36:20. | |
another sector which is important in parts of Cornwall, including in my | :36:21. | :36:24. | |
honourable friend's constituency, the home to new linen. The UK | :36:25. | :36:32. | |
seafood industry offers a wide variety of careers including | :36:33. | :36:35. | |
fishing, agriculture, processing, retail and food service. There can | :36:36. | :36:41. | |
be no doubt that across the whole of food, farming and fisheries sectors, | :36:42. | :36:45. | |
there are fantastic opportunities for young people to build exciting, | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
challenging and successful careers. I want to talk a little bit about | :36:51. | :36:57. | |
the industrial strategy and post-16 skills plan. To secure the skilled | :36:58. | :37:01. | |
workforce that the food, farming and fisheries sector needs for the | :37:02. | :37:05. | |
future, government and industry as work in partnership to prioritise | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
training and skills. It is crucial that there are clear entry routes | :37:11. | :37:13. | |
into the sector to help young people embark on their careers and that | :37:14. | :37:17. | |
employers invest in recruiting, training and developing their staff. | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
This government has introduced a number of policies on skills. The | :37:22. | :37:26. | |
industrial strategy Green paper published in January this year | :37:27. | :37:29. | |
includes skills as one of its core pillars and has a particular focus | :37:30. | :37:37. | |
on stem. The post-16 skills plan published in July 2016 aims to | :37:38. | :37:40. | |
reform technical education by introducing 15 routes or key levels, | :37:41. | :37:48. | |
including agricultural, environmental and animal care, | :37:49. | :37:51. | |
engineering and manufacturing, including food manufacturing, and | :37:52. | :37:56. | |
catering and hospitality. These will provide technical education to equip | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
students for skilled occupations, creating clear routes into the | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
sector. Reforms to apprenticeships will also create fresh opportunities | :38:06. | :38:09. | |
for people to develop new skills and progress their careers. The | :38:10. | :38:13. | |
apprenticeships levy which came into force this month provides a new | :38:14. | :38:19. | |
incentive for employers to invest in training. Many employers in that | :38:20. | :38:22. | |
sector are rising to the challenge and the number of apprenticeship | :38:23. | :38:27. | |
starts in agriculture, horticulture and food manufacturer increased in | :38:28. | :38:34. | |
2015 /16 converts to the previous year. The Department for Education | :38:35. | :38:40. | |
is also exploring options to allow up to 10% of apprenticeship funds to | :38:41. | :38:45. | |
be transferred down the supply chain from 2018, bringing the benefits of | :38:46. | :38:49. | |
apprenticeships to even more businesses and in Defra we are keen | :38:50. | :38:56. | |
to promote this because it means small farm enterprises within a | :38:57. | :38:59. | |
supply chain may find it easier to benefit from the apprenticeship | :39:00. | :39:02. | |
levy. Apprenticeships provide great opportunities both to train new | :39:03. | :39:10. | |
entrants and to upscale and develop existing members of staff and I am | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
delighted that it exciting new apprenticeship standards have been | :39:16. | :39:22. | |
approved for delivery and many more are under development. Sharing their | :39:23. | :39:32. | |
pension levy downline is very welcome. 1.I would make, in Suffolk | :39:33. | :39:38. | |
a lot of businesses are small or medium-sized businesses. What will | :39:39. | :39:42. | |
you do to make sure in the discussions he has maintaining the | :39:43. | :39:48. | |
quality it is not dominated by large sector,? It is important and we have | :39:49. | :40:00. | |
people from the sector involved in the development of these new | :40:01. | :40:02. | |
apprenticeships. The idea that I had for this came when I visited a | :40:03. | :40:09. | |
McCain 's factory manufacturing chips from potatoes where it was | :40:10. | :40:15. | |
clear they add a well-managed apprenticeship programme but in | :40:16. | :40:19. | |
their supply chain they had 300 potato farms and those farmers in | :40:20. | :40:24. | |
many cases will not have an HR director to take care and look after | :40:25. | :40:30. | |
apprenticeship programmes professionally so it seemed there | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
was an opportunity to be able to use organisation and skill sets that | :40:35. | :40:39. | |
people like McCain 's have two foster apprenticeships on farms in | :40:40. | :40:43. | |
places like Norfolk and Suffolk and elsewhere where the potatoes are | :40:44. | :40:48. | |
grown. I have been privileged to meet a number of apprentices as the | :40:49. | :40:51. | |
minister responsible for agriculture, fisheries and food | :40:52. | :40:57. | |
during my time. And I know what great careers can begin from a... | :40:58. | :41:03. | |
Apprenticeships. I recently spoke alongside a former apprentice at an | :41:04. | :41:07. | |
event for unemployed young people interested in careers in food and | :41:08. | :41:13. | |
farming. This young man had decided to do a mechanical engineering | :41:14. | :41:15. | |
apprenticeship instead of following a conventional university degree and | :41:16. | :41:20. | |
after four years of training was earning more than ?40,000 per year. | :41:21. | :41:24. | |
Apprenticeships are a brilliant alternative to university because | :41:25. | :41:28. | |
they allow apprentices to an while they learn and new apprenticeship | :41:29. | :41:32. | |
standards are being developed at degree level and apprenticeships | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
provide fantastic learning opportunities by allowing | :41:38. | :41:39. | |
apprentices to develop their new skills on the job. Employers also | :41:40. | :41:46. | |
benefit from having apprentices. It is calculating the average person | :41:47. | :41:48. | |
who completes their apprenticeship increases as this productivity by | :41:49. | :41:54. | |
around ?214 per week to increased profits and productivity and better | :41:55. | :41:59. | |
quality products. Small employers provide fantastic opportunities for | :42:00. | :42:03. | |
people to get on the career ladder. 96% of the food manufacturing sector | :42:04. | :42:09. | |
are SMEs and they can benefit from apprentices. They only have to pay | :42:10. | :42:16. | |
10% of the cost of training their apprentices and the Government will | :42:17. | :42:25. | |
pay the remaining 90%. He is making an excellent case for the steps the | :42:26. | :42:31. | |
Government are taking to promote apprenticeships in the agricultural | :42:32. | :42:37. | |
sector. I wondered, given the fact that many people decide upon where | :42:38. | :42:40. | |
their careers and lives are going to take them at a very early age, 1314, | :42:41. | :42:47. | |
what steps has he thought can be done to encourage younger people to | :42:48. | :42:50. | |
think about careers in agriculture and the whole supply chain, from | :42:51. | :42:53. | |
that age, and what work is he doing with schools? He has raised an | :42:54. | :42:58. | |
important point. I was going to return to this point | :42:59. | :43:08. | |
because I believe it is an important one that I intend to return to. The | :43:09. | :43:14. | |
Institute for apprenticeships began work on new apprentices this month | :43:15. | :43:18. | |
and will, in time, oversee the development of both T levels and | :43:19. | :43:25. | |
apprenticeships, helping to drive up standards and ensure quality. I'm | :43:26. | :43:28. | |
delighted that two members of the board, Dame Vera McKendrick of | :43:29. | :43:34. | |
Nestle, and a representative Walter Smith fine foods, bring expert | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
knowledge of the food sector. It is important to recognise that we have | :43:40. | :43:42. | |
to have continuous career progression once people are in the | :43:43. | :43:53. | |
industry at the agricultural and horticultural... There are | :43:54. | :43:58. | |
demonstration farms so that there can be a sharing of expertise | :43:59. | :44:03. | |
through their meetings, digital tools and knowledge exchange | :44:04. | :44:08. | |
publications. And of course international benchmarking to learn | :44:09. | :44:11. | |
from the experiences of other countries. I finally wish to say a | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
word about the colleges who last year came together to launch a new | :44:17. | :44:22. | |
national college in agriculture, and this was to thread together some of | :44:23. | :44:28. | |
the activities that all of the colleges are engaged within order to | :44:29. | :44:32. | |
secure a progression of more people towards level three qualifications, | :44:33. | :44:37. | |
again with the aim of having continuous professional career | :44:38. | :44:41. | |
development. I will turn to the issue of the image of the industry | :44:42. | :44:45. | |
and the work being done to try to encourage more young people to | :44:46. | :44:52. | |
participate that the Member for Saint Isaac raised. Clearly there | :44:53. | :44:55. | |
are opportunities in the food, fishing and agriculture sector, so | :44:56. | :44:58. | |
we should be encouraging more people to explore this sector when they | :44:59. | :45:02. | |
think about their future. Overall, we currently have the highest | :45:03. | :45:07. | |
comparison rates since records began at 74% and youth unemployed but has | :45:08. | :45:14. | |
been falling and it remains important that young people are able | :45:15. | :45:19. | |
to take place in the labour market and understand the options | :45:20. | :45:23. | |
available. Careers in food and farming are too frequently seen as | :45:24. | :45:27. | |
low-paid, low skilled and lacking in progression opportunities and we | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
need to challenge some of the outdated myths that are out there | :45:33. | :45:37. | |
and challenge the great careers this sector offers. Engineers, scientists | :45:38. | :45:41. | |
and technicians are at the cutting edge of innovation in aggregate tax | :45:42. | :45:45. | |
and food production. Industry supported organisations, such as one | :45:46. | :45:50. | |
that my honourable friend the member force and I was mentioned, but also | :45:51. | :45:54. | |
the IGD and the national skills academy for food and drink are | :45:55. | :45:58. | |
working to tackle these misconceptions and to increase | :45:59. | :46:01. | |
awareness of careers in the sector through initiatives such as Tasty | :46:02. | :46:09. | |
Careers and Leading Briton Boult Future, which is run by the IGD, | :46:10. | :46:15. | |
through to The World Is Your Oyster, and all of these different schemes | :46:16. | :46:21. | |
highlight the varied pass the seafood industry has to offer. | :46:22. | :46:27. | |
Within government we are highlighting some of the superb | :46:28. | :46:29. | |
apprentices that are already working in this industry through a | :46:30. | :46:39. | |
government campaign. The Secretary of State in Defra hosted a round | :46:40. | :46:44. | |
table, bringing together a range of organisations that start a dialogue | :46:45. | :46:48. | |
about what industry and government could do together to champion | :46:49. | :46:54. | |
opportunities available in the farming sector. The round table | :46:55. | :46:58. | |
heard directly from apprentices working from poor into a leading | :46:59. | :47:03. | |
food businesses, Nestle and mandalas, about their experiences in | :47:04. | :47:07. | |
the sector and the best will -- people to sell the sector are young | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
people themselves starting out on their own careers in the industry | :47:12. | :47:17. | |
and, indeed... I will give way. The Minister is setting out some fine | :47:18. | :47:25. | |
examples of what's happening but can I press him on the industry's need | :47:26. | :47:29. | |
for seasonal workers? We do want to get young people into long-term jobs | :47:30. | :47:33. | |
that he is talking about and that is really important but there will be | :47:34. | :47:42. | |
continually a need for seasonal workers but how can that helped to | :47:43. | :47:45. | |
perpetuate our agricultural industry into the future? I will return to | :47:46. | :47:51. | |
the honourable lady's point because she made her remarks as well and | :47:52. | :47:55. | |
given that we have some time in this debate, I will address that after | :47:56. | :47:57. | |
but since this is predominantly about careers in agriculture, I do | :47:58. | :48:01. | |
want to focus on how we can encourage more young people into | :48:02. | :48:07. | |
those careers. And above honourable members have mentioned the issue of | :48:08. | :48:11. | |
women in farming and there is an organisation called Women In | :48:12. | :48:15. | |
Farming. I've spoken at one of their events couple of years ago and the | :48:16. | :48:20. | |
former Secretary of State also addressed their event. I can also | :48:21. | :48:24. | |
report to honourable members that the Tesco young farmers' group that | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
I mentioned earlier in my contribution, of the ten farmers | :48:30. | :48:34. | |
that came as part of that group, four were winning. So I do believe | :48:35. | :48:38. | |
that we are making progress and it is essential that we don't overlook | :48:39. | :48:42. | |
the great contribution that women make to some of these careers, | :48:43. | :48:46. | |
particularly when we have areas such as science where we have women | :48:47. | :48:51. | |
increasingly doing so well. This is a challenge that many countries in | :48:52. | :48:56. | |
the world face. Indeed, when I attended the G7 in Japan last year, | :48:57. | :49:00. | |
one of the big focus as they had was how they could encourage more women | :49:01. | :49:05. | |
into farming. I have to say, some of their ideas probably wouldn't cut | :49:06. | :49:10. | |
it. I remember them demonstrating a tractor that had pink patterns on | :49:11. | :49:14. | |
the side of the bonnet in the idea that that might have helped. I'm not | :49:15. | :49:21. | |
sure that would work here. The honourable member for St Ives | :49:22. | :49:24. | |
mentioned the importance of encouraging children of school age | :49:25. | :49:30. | |
into farming. The plan in place at the moment does actively encourage | :49:31. | :49:35. | |
all schools to give children of primary school age and experience on | :49:36. | :49:39. | |
a farm so that they can see how food is produced. A number of the county | :49:40. | :49:44. | |
show associations also run very good projects. The Royal Cornwall show | :49:45. | :49:50. | |
association runs an event every year and invites schools from across the | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
country to come and learn about farming and farming careers. The | :49:55. | :49:59. | |
devil can to show has, as usual, copied Cornwall and is doing a | :50:00. | :50:02. | |
similar project but that's great. We need as many as possible to be | :50:03. | :50:06. | |
promoting farming as a career to schools. The honourable member for | :50:07. | :50:15. | |
Midlothian talked about the importance of farming and fishing | :50:16. | :50:18. | |
north of the border in Scotland and it is an incredibly important | :50:19. | :50:23. | |
industry. I regularly visit Scotland, particularly with the | :50:24. | :50:27. | |
fishing industry, and I remember last year during a visit to the | :50:28. | :50:31. | |
Shetland Islands where they have one of the key academies that trains | :50:32. | :50:35. | |
skippers in fishing vessels and captaining fishing vessels. He | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
mentioned the average age of farmers and this has been a long-standing | :50:41. | :50:46. | |
problem that many countries in the world face. Often the statistics | :50:47. | :50:48. | |
mask the reality and it is often the case that the farmer is unwilling to | :50:49. | :50:54. | |
let go of the purse strings but the manager of the holding is the next | :50:55. | :50:59. | |
generation down but we are keen to encourage more new entrance and | :51:00. | :51:01. | |
there have been a number of projects, including some in Wales | :51:02. | :51:06. | |
and southern Scotland and indeed in Cornwall there is something called | :51:07. | :51:10. | |
the fresh start initiative where they did some work to see how they | :51:11. | :51:16. | |
could both help people retire whilst at the same time creating new | :51:17. | :51:21. | |
opportunities for new entrance. He mentioned it is an uncertain world | :51:22. | :51:25. | |
with Brexit and I would simply say this. I believe it is a fantastic | :51:26. | :51:31. | |
opportunity. I am very much of a glass half full view with this. We | :51:32. | :51:35. | |
have a great opportunity to design and agriculture policy that is | :51:36. | :51:38. | |
better suited to us here in all parts of the UK. I can tell him that | :51:39. | :51:42. | |
just last week I met NFUS to talk about some of their thoughts and | :51:43. | :51:45. | |
ideas about how we can do policy differently in the future and the | :51:46. | :51:48. | |
one thing I can assure him is that I'm yet to find a fisherman in | :51:49. | :51:53. | |
Scotland who would like us to rejoin the CFP, having left it, so I can | :51:54. | :51:56. | |
tell him that the fishing industry, almost universally, believes that | :51:57. | :52:01. | |
the decision to leave the EU was the right one and they are relishing the | :52:02. | :52:05. | |
opportunity that this brings to the Scottish fishing fleet. The shadow | :52:06. | :52:09. | |
minister and the honourable member for Midlothian mentioned the issue | :52:10. | :52:17. | |
of Labour. As she will know, the Prime Minister has made clear that | :52:18. | :52:20. | |
she wishes to respect the rights of EU citizens that are here working in | :52:21. | :52:24. | |
the UK now. She made that point very early on, very soon after the | :52:25. | :52:30. | |
decision to leave the EU. She made a perfectly reasonable point, which is | :52:31. | :52:34. | |
obviously that we would expect that to be reciprocated and I don't think | :52:35. | :52:36. | |
that that is controversial, and she's also been made clear that she | :52:37. | :52:40. | |
hopes it is polygamy settled very early negotiations, so I believe we | :52:41. | :52:44. | |
can give reassurance to those who are living working in the UK now. | :52:45. | :52:50. | |
When it comes to seasonal labour, as the honourable lady points out, I | :52:51. | :52:53. | |
would simply say that having a controlled migration policy and | :52:54. | :52:58. | |
ending a presumption of free movement doesn't mean that you pull | :52:59. | :53:01. | |
up the drawbridge and stop while immigration. At sin-bin means what | :53:02. | :53:05. | |
it says, that you have control of it, and it will then be for a future | :53:06. | :53:09. | |
government to decide what sort of work permits it wishes to grant, | :53:10. | :53:13. | |
whether it grants short-term work permits, whether it just grants work | :53:14. | :53:17. | |
permits for the more skilled people, and it can do so based on an | :53:18. | :53:21. | |
assessment of what our needs are and if there is a need for seasonal | :53:22. | :53:25. | |
agricultural labour then, of course, a future government will have at its | :53:26. | :53:30. | |
disposal the ability to grant the types of permits that are needed so | :53:31. | :53:33. | |
I believe all of these issues can be dealt with. In conclusion, I believe | :53:34. | :53:39. | |
it has been a very important debate on a very important subject that is | :53:40. | :53:42. | |
dear to my heart. I believe we've made some very good progress with | :53:43. | :53:46. | |
the work that has been done on apprenticeships and some of the | :53:47. | :53:49. | |
great work that is being done in schools to promote agriculture and | :53:50. | :53:53. | |
food as a career. There is further to go but I believe we have made a | :53:54. | :53:58. | |
very good start. No more than two minutes, please. Thank you to the | :53:59. | :54:04. | |
Minister, who encouraged me when I first arrived in this post to | :54:05. | :54:09. | |
participate in a debate about on that. The Minister has said that the | :54:10. | :54:16. | |
opportunity exists within food and farming, and that jobs are | :54:17. | :54:23. | |
increasing in the hi-tech area. I absolutely agree, there is real | :54:24. | :54:26. | |
potential to create many new well-paid jobs and that is what | :54:27. | :54:31. | |
rural areas in particular need to hear and need to see realised. The | :54:32. | :54:35. | |
Minister referred to the new T levels and they are welcome and are | :54:36. | :54:39. | |
an important step in addressing the skills gap but can I ask the | :54:40. | :54:44. | |
Minister to encourage Defra and other departments, to work with the | :54:45. | :54:51. | |
Department for Education to assess how effective and clear the pathway | :54:52. | :54:55. | |
into food, fishing and farming really is for children, so schools | :54:56. | :55:00. | |
can be encouraged to really focus on much more than just a journey | :55:01. | :55:05. | |
towards a university degree or some similar. Finally, as we introduce | :55:06. | :55:12. | |
various things like making tax digital, and the Minister also | :55:13. | :55:16. | |
contribute to that debate as far as how people already in fishing, | :55:17. | :55:17. | |
farming and food production, particularly small businesses, can | :55:18. | :55:24. | |
embrace that opportunity, in terms of digitising tax etc and making | :55:25. | :55:27. | |
sure we've got the broadband and mobile phone capacities to deliver. | :55:28. | :55:31. | |
I wish to thank all those who took part for the opportunity to | :55:32. | :55:37. | |
participate in this debate. The question is that this House has | :55:38. | :55:42. | |
debated opportunities in food and farming. The ayes have it. Suspended | :55:43. | :55:48. | |
until 4pm. Order, order. I called James Heatley | :55:49. | :56:03. | |
to move the motion. Thank you very much, and it is an honour to serve | :56:04. | :56:08. | |
under your chairmanship, and I am really honoured to have secured the | :56:09. | :56:10. | |
debate today on the penultimate day of this Parliament to raise Wells's | :56:11. | :56:18. | |
bid to become the UK City of Culture in 2021. As a proud constituency MP, | :56:19. | :56:22. | |
I've been supporting the bid from its genesis, which wasn't very long | :56:23. | :56:27. | |
ago, and I will continue to support the bid because I think it has an | :56:28. | :56:33. | |
enormous potential to change the stars of both Wales and the wider | :56:34. | :56:38. | |
Somerset area. -- Wells. I think it is important to place on record that | :56:39. | :56:44. | |
in the absence of a large civic construct to put together this bid, | :56:45. | :56:47. | |
it has really fallen into the hands of volunteers from in and around | :56:48. | :56:53. | |
Wells to do so and particular mention must go to Andy Webb, who | :56:54. | :56:56. | |
has volunteered to do this, and it is quite phenomenal the amount he | :56:57. | :57:00. | |
has achieved in such a short space of time. Before I talk about Wells's | :57:01. | :57:04. | |
bid specifically, I also wanted to say a few words in my capacity as | :57:05. | :57:10. | |
the chairman of the All Party Parliamentary Group on Iran cinders | :57:11. | :57:13. | |
three, not least because I see that Nicky Wire is hoping to return to | :57:14. | :57:17. | |
Parliament and it may well be that they restore him to the chairmanship | :57:18. | :57:26. | |
when he gets here. I have learned an enormous amount about the ingenuity | :57:27. | :57:31. | |
of the UK events industry and its role in driving our visitor economy | :57:32. | :57:36. | |
and our role in showcasing British business by the calibre and | :57:37. | :57:40. | |
expertise of the events that we put on around the world. And so, out, | :57:41. | :57:47. | |
have I seen the value of events on offer locally, regionally and | :57:48. | :57:50. | |
nationally, such as the City of Culture, which is a series of events | :57:51. | :57:54. | |
over the course of a year or so but in Londonderry it was worth ?100 | :57:55. | :57:57. | |
million to the local economy and in Hull, it has already been worth ?60 | :57:58. | :58:04. | |
million to local economy so you can see why Wells and wider Somerset is | :58:05. | :58:08. | |
so keen on winning that status. It would be transformative. I give way | :58:09. | :58:11. | |
to the honourable member for Weston-Super-Mare. | :58:12. | :58:17. | |
This is an important issue for his consistency and those of us around. | :58:18. | :58:22. | |
You mention the bid has been put together by a small dedicated band | :58:23. | :58:29. | |
of volunteers. I'm sure he has already been speaking to Visit | :58:30. | :58:36. | |
Somerset, Somerset tourism, and I suspect they will have engaged | :58:37. | :58:39. | |
strongly in creating this if only because the knock-on effect on my | :58:40. | :58:46. | |
home and their accommodation industry could be profound. I agree. | :58:47. | :58:54. | |
It is a huge opportunity not just for Wales but for Weston-Super-Mare | :58:55. | :58:58. | |
as well. Visit Somerset along with a number of other local bodies have | :58:59. | :59:02. | |
been involved in supporting those volunteers in putting together the | :59:03. | :59:08. | |
bid. I think what we need to discuss today is the difference in Wales's | :59:09. | :59:12. | |
bids so the minister might satisfy himself that the bid process lends | :59:13. | :59:17. | |
itself is keenly to rural areas as it does to urban because Wales's bid | :59:18. | :59:25. | |
is not about the post-industrial regeneration that was the | :59:26. | :59:29. | |
centrepiece for a Londonderry and Hull. It is a different opportunity | :59:30. | :59:33. | |
in Somerset and I will talk more later about that. Our bid draws on a | :59:34. | :59:39. | |
rich cultural heritage way out of proportion to the size of our city. | :59:40. | :59:44. | |
We are England's smallest city but our cathedral has a centuries long | :59:45. | :59:48. | |
tradition in music and so does the now ruined Glastonbury Abbey which | :59:49. | :59:51. | |
still hosts wonderful musical events. We have the Glastonbury | :59:52. | :59:59. | |
Festival down the road and there is Arthurian legend all over Avalon and | :00:00. | :00:02. | |
Glastonbury itself which will be a wonderful team to draw on throughout | :00:03. | :00:07. | |
the city of culture year. There are are internationally significant art | :00:08. | :00:12. | |
galleries, and Opera Festival, comedy festivals and literature | :00:13. | :00:18. | |
festivals, food festivals, film festivals, we have a brand-new | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
world-class concert hall and we are the location for many movies and TV | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
programmes and so much more. All of that goes alongside a rural | :00:29. | :00:35. | |
agricultural life and an incredible natural history whilst also | :00:36. | :00:41. | |
embracing the digital arts industry as we tap into the success of those | :00:42. | :00:46. | |
sectors in Bristol and Bath. The cultural offer is more developed and | :00:47. | :00:59. | |
diverse in Wales, smallest -- Wells. The bid and -- the bid | :01:00. | :01:06. | |
understandably requires more. I wonder if the Minister think it is | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
fair given we are trying to build a country that works for everyone and | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
we must recognise that includes developing the economies of rural | :01:15. | :01:17. | |
areas as well as urban. I hope the minister in a few days he has left | :01:18. | :01:23. | |
accepting his civil servants are almost locked down on the purdah, | :01:24. | :01:30. | |
Willie satisfy himself that when small local authority areas are | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
bidding for these things then perhaps the process must be weighted | :01:35. | :01:37. | |
to understand they're not able to underwrite heads in the same way as | :01:38. | :01:42. | |
large at Bolton areas might be able to -- larger metropolitan areas. The | :01:43. | :01:46. | |
advantage of volunteers coming together as they have in the Wells | :01:47. | :01:52. | |
is that private sector engagement, very encouraging, Heritage Lottery | :01:53. | :01:58. | |
funding has been involved, and I hope the Minister Willock carefully | :01:59. | :02:01. | |
at the process to make sure that if we are really aiming to create a | :02:02. | :02:07. | |
country that works for everyone, all regions competing equitably, we make | :02:08. | :02:11. | |
sure the bid process doesn't disadvantage to the more rural areas | :02:12. | :02:14. | |
and those where local authorities are not able to resource the beds | :02:15. | :02:22. | |
more fully. I applaud him for bringing this debate to this | :02:23. | :02:28. | |
chamber. I believe the idea behind these cities of culture is to | :02:29. | :02:34. | |
improve economic prosperity, and whilst Wells is a glorious location | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
with its cathedral, the location for the film Hot Fuzz. Is it not also | :02:39. | :02:49. | |
sitting importantly in its rural environment, an area which is quite | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
poor, and the knock-on effect from attracting city of cultural status | :02:55. | :03:03. | |
could reverberate through the rest of Somerset? It could improve the | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
productivity needs to address. We need to do more. She is exactly | :03:08. | :03:18. | |
right. It is so easy to assume if you were flying over our | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
constituencies and you would cease many trees, fields, you would think | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
that all is well down below. There is a hidden deprivation in rural | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
areas that is just as significant a challenge as the challenge you would | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
find in a city area. The challenge is arguably much more because rather | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
than at all being concentrated in one area and therefore name of your | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
intervention is more defined, in rural areas too often those families | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
living in deprivation are on their own, the only family in the hamlet | :03:50. | :03:55. | |
to live in that circumstance, or the families are scattered across a town | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
or village and they require the ability to intervene in a light | :04:00. | :04:10. | |
switches such more challenging. There is an opportunity to uplift | :04:11. | :04:13. | |
the entire area with city of culture status. You find people living in | :04:14. | :04:20. | |
deprivation in isolation and bring them into this and do something | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
which could be potentially transformative to their lives. There | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
are a number of obvious benefits to the city of culture status that the | :04:30. | :04:32. | |
Minister will be well aware of and will be in common with all other bid | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
cities. Clearly the most obvious place to start is the visitor | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
economy and Somerset's visitor economy is already drawing, drawing | :04:42. | :04:51. | |
from 1.2 to 1.3 billion in the past years. Visit Somerset have been | :04:52. | :04:53. | |
looking at different ways of marketing the county and have seen | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
huge success. So how the various tourism expos that have come here. | :04:59. | :05:03. | |
The Minister will want to pass back congratulations to Visit Britain who | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
have brought international delegations and tour operators to | :05:09. | :05:14. | |
Somerset. I hosted a group of Spanish, Italian, Portuguese and | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
Mexican tour operators and it was great to see them brought to the | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
area by Visit Britain to see what we had to offer. The reality is that | :05:23. | :05:29. | |
Somerset is too often the drive-through county on the way to | :05:30. | :05:32. | |
the south-west and there is more on offer. That is music to your ears, I | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
know, but I am sure you will not begrudge us if we hold them up a | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
little longer at our end of the peninsula. There is more that could | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
be done to the visitor economy in our part of the south-west and it | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
would be great to see the city of culture acting as a catalyst for | :05:52. | :05:57. | |
growth. It would be fantastic to see city of culture status acting as a | :05:58. | :05:59. | |
catalyst for infrastructure improvement. The railway line south | :06:00. | :06:06. | |
of Bristol are not planned for electrification and the line from | :06:07. | :06:14. | |
Reading through Taunton to the south-west is not being electrified | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
as quickly as we might have hoped. Wraps city of culture status or | :06:19. | :06:25. | |
something similar might be a reason to accelerate improvement. It might | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
be a great book for a number of airlines who have looked at bringing | :06:31. | :06:37. | |
in daily services from Bristol Airport to New York, Doha, and other | :06:38. | :06:43. | |
places, perhaps this could be the final encouragement they need to | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
commit to that service, not just good for Bristol and the greater | :06:48. | :06:50. | |
area but fantastic for the whole south-west peninsula. City of | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
culture status could be a catalyst for that. There may well be the | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
opportunity to use the catalyst for road improvements. My honourable | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
friends for Bath and North East Somerset have been doing great work | :07:05. | :07:14. | |
on improving the route from the M4. I have been doing work on | :07:15. | :07:25. | |
improvements on other roads. What a great thing if city of culture | :07:26. | :07:28. | |
status would be a catalyst for road improvements. The Minister has been | :07:29. | :07:36. | |
doing great work on broadband and mobile coverage. Given perhaps there | :07:37. | :07:42. | |
might be some sort of growth on the digital arts industry emerging | :07:43. | :07:44. | |
within the Somerset area, perhaps the city of culture might also | :07:45. | :07:53. | |
catalyse the Digital economy and see us accelerate. I feel I am speaking | :07:54. | :08:03. | |
up for the rest of Somerset. The south-west has historically been | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
allowed the productivity of the rest of the country, about 7% converted | :08:08. | :08:15. | |
to 8%. Would he see this as a great opportunity to address that? The | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
knock-on effect would be enormous. If we could get a city of culture in | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
the south-west, which would be unusual. The money is going north. | :08:24. | :08:29. | |
It could do so much good work if we brought it to the south-west and it | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
really would have a big impact on productivity. She is an excellent | :08:34. | :08:40. | |
friends to have entered a's pursuit of the Minister. She is entirely | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
right. Productivity is a potential gain from this. One of the other | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
things I think that the city of culture status might help us to | :08:52. | :08:54. | |
achieve is we are blessed in Somerset with really outstanding | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
schools and colleges but too often we are training people up and giving | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
them an education for which they think they have no option but to | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
move away to pursue their careers and I wonder if the city of culture | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
status, in that it might attract investment and create a buzz about | :09:15. | :09:20. | |
living in Somerset, and it might come about in my Honourable friend's | :09:21. | :09:29. | |
constituency, some excellent work in the arts and delivering skills and | :09:30. | :09:38. | |
marketing, I wonder if city of culture status might have the effect | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
of helping to rebalance in some small way Somerset's demographic as | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
well by keeping young people in the county. If we have managed to | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
improve infrastructure and create a younger workforce with the right | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
skills needed by the industries that are there and are emerging then we | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
achieved a significant productivity boost as my Honourable friend | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
suggested and that would be a fantastic legacy to see in Somerset | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
not only because it would change Somerset's stars in terms of how the | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
population is skilled and availability of the workforce but | :10:13. | :10:15. | |
the availability of that newly skilled workforce would bring with | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
it inward investment and new companies, hugely exciting. Perhaps | :10:21. | :10:25. | |
we could see the city of culture status as part of the legacy of | :10:26. | :10:31. | |
Hinkley point which is already doing something to rebalance our region's | :10:32. | :10:36. | |
economy. What if, having brought all the expertise and know-how to the | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
country, we have follow-up industries coming behind and city of | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
culture status helping to reinforce what a wonderful quality of life one | :10:45. | :10:52. | |
could have living in Somerset. The timing seems to be right and I hope | :10:53. | :10:59. | |
the Minister will agree, not just for the city of Wells but from the | :11:00. | :11:06. | |
south-west as a whole. He has given such a catalogue that it is making | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
Somerset Sound like such an attractive place, which it is, but | :11:12. | :11:14. | |
also we have the Somerset Levels very close, I'm massive wildlife | :11:15. | :11:22. | |
offer which we can build on. In my constituency we have the County Down | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
of Taunton that it could build its links with Wells. We are trying to | :11:27. | :11:32. | |
build our cultural offer. We have the Somerset County ground. We could | :11:33. | :11:38. | |
build a whole offer in Somerset but we could focus it with spin offs | :11:39. | :11:44. | |
from Wells. She is contributing powerfully on the heart of our | :11:45. | :11:50. | |
country and her constituency. England's smallest city cannot do | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
this alone. It is an offer that incumbents is -- offer that | :11:57. | :12:03. | |
encompasses many places nearby but also further afield in Taunton, | :12:04. | :12:10. | |
Bath, Bristol. The Minister will say so what? Everyone says it will bring | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
more tourism, bring productivity and investment, and he is not wrong. But | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
that is where I think the bid from a small city in a rural setting | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
becomes interesting because I would argue that the challenge of | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
yesteryear was the regeneration of post-industrial cities. I think the | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
new challenge for the next decade is how we build more resilient | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
communities to deal with loneliness, ageing population, the challenges of | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
mental health, particularly dementia among the ageing population. In | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
Somerset we have those problems quite acutely already. We are in the | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
vanguard of the nation when it comes to the ageing population. I think if | :12:52. | :12:58. | |
we were to start to see the city of culture as an opportunity for the | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
arts to be something that brings communities together, enhances the | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
culture of volunteering that exists in our communities but could become | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
so much war and therefore to build networks of people looking out for | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
one another and it is the arts, the city of culture status that has | :13:16. | :13:18. | |
brought them together in the first place, I think that is hugely | :13:19. | :13:19. | |
exciting. Then Minister will, I hope, reflect | :13:20. | :13:29. | |
that there is an economic challenge in the Southwest. Although there are | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
a lot of Brownfield sites you might have seen in other cities, he might | :13:36. | :13:40. | |
reflect the Southwest as a region has lagged behind in investment for | :13:41. | :13:46. | |
some time and that something like this, a flagship project of | :13:47. | :13:49. | |
international significance really driving the local economy, would be | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
really exciting and would tick the boxes. But I hope he will also see | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
that, if the government is one of the challenges the next decade will | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
be challenging loneliness and helping the elderly to live in their | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
own homes, so they don't need social care, so they don't need to be in | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
hospital, we are starting to see their City of Culture status as a | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
catalyst for developing resilience, to develop networks of volunteers | :14:19. | :14:22. | |
and embrace the horsepower in communities and voluntary groups, | :14:23. | :14:28. | |
and using that as a celebration of our community to create a legacy of | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
support and looking out for one another in a resilient committee. I | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
think that is hugely exciting. You have indulged me and my colleagues | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
from Somerset for long enough, but it has been a huge honour to stand | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
here and pitch to you at the Minister the value of the bid for | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
Wells to become the City of Culture. I hope he will go away for of | :14:53. | :14:55. | |
enthusiasm for what we have to offer and that we might be successful in | :14:56. | :14:58. | |
reaching the short list in due course. Ministers to respond. It is | :14:59. | :15:11. | |
a great pleasure to serve underage chairmanship, in what I expect to be | :15:12. | :15:16. | |
the final Westminster Hall debate that I will respond to this | :15:17. | :15:25. | |
Parliament. I congratulate the Member for Wells on securing this | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
debate and also powerfully arguing for Wells to become the UK City of | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
Culture in 2021. You can see why the people of Wells elected term, | :15:36. | :15:41. | |
because he has a deep passion for his city. He makes the case and | :15:42. | :15:48. | |
touched on some of the things he has been able to do in the two years he | :15:49. | :15:54. | |
has been the MBA, to improve the city and life for its residents. And | :15:55. | :16:02. | |
I wish him well in his bid to gain their trust to do that in the next | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
parliament as well. You can see from today why such a passionate advocate | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
is needed for the city of Wells and the surrounding areas. He makes the | :16:13. | :16:19. | |
case more broadly, including the value of becoming the City of | :16:20. | :16:22. | |
Culture to Somerset and the Southwest more widely. Under that UK | :16:23. | :16:27. | |
City of Culture programme, places and compete to hold the title once | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
every four years, and the prize is that title. There is no formal | :16:33. | :16:38. | |
funding support, although there is a huge amount of support in drawing | :16:39. | :16:45. | |
funding from all sorts of places, Private and public. And the | :16:46. | :16:51. | |
programme uses this creativity and culture to transform a place, | :16:52. | :16:54. | |
attracting visitors and bringing communities together. The | :16:55. | :17:02. | |
competition was launched in January, it places have registered their | :17:03. | :17:05. | |
intention to bed. Sunderland, Paisley, birth, Hereford, Warrington | :17:06. | :17:12. | |
Saint Davids, Portsmouth and tempt one among others. The bids need to | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
be received by the end of this week, so this is a timely debate and then | :17:18. | :17:23. | |
they will be assessed by the advisory panel while Parliament is | :17:24. | :17:29. | |
dissolved. Then a short list will be announced after the election, and | :17:30. | :17:32. | |
the winning city announced by the end of this year. I thought it was | :17:33. | :17:41. | |
really striking how he described the way he largely voluntary bid is | :17:42. | :17:46. | |
coming together, drawing people from the community, from the private | :17:47. | :17:53. | |
sector, of course, within the Council area, but led by volunteers. | :17:54. | :18:02. | |
I pay tribute to those who have worked on the bed so far. And as the | :18:03. | :18:08. | |
smallest city, there is an iconic selling point there as well. When it | :18:09. | :18:16. | |
comes to looking at Wells, we have Harwich today about the cultural | :18:17. | :18:24. | |
assets that already exist in Wells. The City of Culture is all about | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
boosting those assets, that already exist, as well as adding new ones. | :18:30. | :18:38. | |
In Wells in particular, this draws from an ancient tradition, the long | :18:39. | :18:41. | |
and illustrious history, the cathedral, which has been in place | :18:42. | :18:51. | |
since 909. The Bishop of Bath in Wells has been in the seat since | :18:52. | :18:58. | |
1245. The current bishop, Peter Hancock, no relation, but a great | :18:59. | :19:05. | |
man. There is a great heritage, 341 different listings, four of which | :19:06. | :19:13. | |
are the Bishop's palace alone. He mentioned Glastonbury Festival and | :19:14. | :19:19. | |
cheddar, the home of cheese. So, the variety, as well as the depth of the | :19:20. | :19:30. | |
history, is a real attribute. The area has enjoyed significant | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
investment from the Arts Council, who have invested 700,000, and the | :19:36. | :19:40. | |
Heritage lottery fund, who have invested 3.5 million over the same | :19:41. | :19:47. | |
period. Glastonbury Festival Theatre and the Circus of Glastonbury | :19:48. | :19:50. | |
Festival benefited from grants this year. Last year, the Palace Trust | :19:51. | :19:57. | |
were awarded money to help children engage with the Bishop's palace. So | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
there has been public investment as well as private investment. Touching | :20:03. | :20:08. | |
on a couple of things he said directly. I think that the backing | :20:09. | :20:20. | |
of the steering team's mission by Visit Somerset and the support of | :20:21. | :20:26. | |
local councils, institutions, businesses, carnivals working | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
together is important. That is a very strong sense of pride in the | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
area. There is, and I know some of the officials have already visited, | :20:36. | :20:41. | |
as Wells has been a candidate city for a couple of months now. That | :20:42. | :20:47. | |
coming together is an important part of delivering the project. But the | :20:48. | :20:53. | |
thing that struck me most was what he said about looking at the City of | :20:54. | :20:56. | |
Culture competition in a different way, not just to sport and physical | :20:57. | :21:04. | |
and economic regeneration, but also to support and strengthen the | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
resilience of communities, and the value of communities in a small city | :21:10. | :21:16. | |
and rural setting. I thought that he put that very well, because he is | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
right that Wells would be different as a choice from previous winners, | :21:22. | :21:28. | |
where the focus has been on economic regeneration and social rejuvenation | :21:29. | :21:38. | |
of an area that has had a difficult time over recent generations. | :21:39. | :21:45. | |
Whereas Wells is about building on its success, but building stronger | :21:46. | :21:48. | |
and more resilient communities. I thought he put that over very well, | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
and I have noted that and we'll make sure that as noted by the judging | :21:53. | :22:02. | |
panel. The value of the UK City of Culture competition, I think the | :22:03. | :22:05. | |
evidence is that the value comes to all bidders. Just bidding brings | :22:06. | :22:13. | |
value, it brings people together, it brings national attention as this | :22:14. | :22:19. | |
debate is doing. And preparing the bid can generate new ideas for new | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
partnerships. Bidding areas often think about the plans and develop | :22:24. | :22:29. | |
them over time. Hull was only successful at the second attempt, | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
but has been hugely successful this year. Indeed, the Both Carried said | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
that hole was one of the top ten cities in the world to visit this | :22:39. | :22:46. | |
year, and it has had a 60 million boost to its local economy, and more | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
than 1 billion of investment. That is the benefit of winning, but it is | :22:53. | :22:59. | |
the taking part accounts as well, because people pulling together with | :23:00. | :23:04. | |
the goal of winning has its value. I also want to acknowledge the support | :23:05. | :23:13. | |
that he has from the member for Taunton Deane, who has put together | :23:14. | :23:19. | |
the wider benefits for Somerset, and also the member for | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
Weston-Super-Mare, who made powerful supportive comments. That the value | :23:24. | :23:30. | |
that is expected to the wider community, not just Wells, but the | :23:31. | :23:33. | |
bid is really about Wells in Somerset. Picking up his points, we | :23:34. | :23:51. | |
are finding that this urban/ rural divide is getting larger, and if | :23:52. | :23:54. | |
Libby could do something to link the two together better, perhaps through | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
the arts, I think there would be a really positive move. The member for | :23:59. | :24:06. | |
Taunton Deane is a powerful advocate for her constituency and makes the | :24:07. | :24:13. | |
case incredibly well for the importance of closing the urban/ | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
rural divide and making sure that people in Taunton and across the | :24:19. | :24:22. | |
country gain the benefits of the arts and culture, and the technology | :24:23. | :24:29. | |
is bringing right across rural and urban areas. And I have very much | :24:30. | :24:37. | |
taken that on board. I will end, if I may, by saying that the member for | :24:38. | :24:46. | |
Wells is a brilliant local representative. He is a terrific | :24:47. | :24:56. | |
advocate for Wells, and I will give him all the encouragement in this | :24:57. | :25:03. | |
date, and the bidders. That is only one thing I cannot give him, and | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
that is that which he seeks, which is picked to lead today in his bid, | :25:09. | :25:19. | |
along with many others, to make Wells the UK City of Culture in | :25:20. | :25:25. | |
2021. What I can say is that thanks to his efforts, the bid they are | :25:26. | :25:29. | |
making has been brought to the attention of people right at the | :25:30. | :25:34. | |
most senior levels, so that it will get the very best shot that it can. | :25:35. | :25:42. | |
We now move on to our next debate, and all the protagonists ICO here, | :25:43. | :25:48. | |
so we can move smartly on. I will just wait for members to leave us, | :25:49. | :25:56. | |
and the Minister to take his place. Welcome. It is a great pleasure to | :25:57. | :26:02. | |
call upon David McIntosh to call the motion. It is a pleasure to serve | :26:03. | :26:08. | |
under is your chairmanship today. I beg to move that this house has | :26:09. | :26:13. | |
considered grandparents' rights of access to children. The issue of | :26:14. | :26:18. | |
grandparents being able to access their grandchildren is one that | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
affects a number of families right across the UK. I have received a | :26:23. | :26:27. | |
significant amount of correspondence from my own constituents, who write | :26:28. | :26:32. | |
to me after family breakdowns and drinking circumstances, seeking | :26:33. | :26:36. | |
guidance on how to reach out to their grandchildren or have access. | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
I adored all of my grandparents from both my mum and dad's families and | :26:41. | :26:46. | |
have fond memories of them from when I was growing up. But it is a sad | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
reflection that we have not managed to reflect in legislation is hugely | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
important role grandparents play in our society. My own dad adores his | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
grandchildren and they adore him back, so whenever I'm contacted by | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
constituents, and actually refer to my own family and simply cannot | :27:05. | :27:08. | |
imagine how hard this must be for everyone involved not to have | :27:09. | :27:13. | |
contact. This is never a straightforward issue to resolve. | :27:14. | :27:17. | |
The distance between grandparents and grandchildren can come about | :27:18. | :27:23. | |
through a number of ways, marital breakdown, bereavement and other | :27:24. | :27:29. | |
difficulties. It can be an incredibly distressing time for all | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
of those involved. I know this issue has been discussed previously in the | :27:34. | :27:36. | |
house, through the introduction of private members bills, debates, and | :27:37. | :27:42. | |
the conversations I have had with colleagues from across the house. I | :27:43. | :27:50. | |
wish to congratulate him for raising this important issue in the house | :27:51. | :27:57. | |
today. He has received, as I have received, many communications which | :27:58. | :28:00. | |
should be emotional turmoil grandparents feel when they had | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
estranged from their grandchildren. Does he agree with me that it is | :28:05. | :28:11. | |
always an error when he situations, like divorce is, grandparents can be | :28:12. | :28:12. | |
used as weapons in the divorce is? I agree it can be very distressing | :28:13. | :28:22. | |
and it is wrong for children to be used as weapons by anybody in any | :28:23. | :28:28. | |
situation but it is distressing for everyone involved and often the | :28:29. | :28:31. | |
constituents that had come to see me, I only see their side of the | :28:32. | :28:35. | |
versions of events and not the children involved and I can tell | :28:36. | :28:38. | |
from my own family that I would be very distressing to not see their | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
grandparents. But it is an issue that does not go away or have a | :28:43. | :28:46. | |
simple solution, as much as I wish there were one. It is important to | :28:47. | :28:50. | |
remember the rights of grandchildren matter as much as the grandparents. | :28:51. | :28:56. | |
Children should be given the opportunity to visit grandparents if | :28:57. | :28:59. | |
they want to. I would like to use this opportunity to praise charities | :29:00. | :29:07. | |
and organisations to help grandparents who have become | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
estranged from grandchildren often through no fault of their own. One | :29:13. | :29:20. | |
such charity operates in my constituency and helps grandparents | :29:21. | :29:26. | |
try to reconnect with their grandchildren. I have attended | :29:27. | :29:33. | |
monthly meeting and listened to some distressing stories of how | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
grandparents ended up losing contact with their grandchildren, sometimes | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
because arguments have gone too far, sometimes due to families separating | :29:42. | :29:44. | |
and sometimes people never really understand the reasons why. Some in | :29:45. | :29:50. | |
the sector wrote to me to suggest ways in which the situation could be | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
changed with a few minor amendments in the wording of the children's | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
act, adding a reference to the child's extended family as well as | :30:01. | :30:05. | |
the involvement of parents, and it could ensure grandparents have | :30:06. | :30:07. | |
similar rights to their grandchildren as well as parents to | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
help secure the child's welfare and ensure grandparents are not | :30:12. | :30:14. | |
negatively impacted by any change to a child's family situation. I can | :30:15. | :30:20. | |
also see situations where this could lead to conflicting issues. The | :30:21. | :30:24. | |
primary responsibility for bringing up children in most families is with | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
parents and I would not like to see situations where parental | :30:30. | :30:31. | |
responsibility could be confused by giving additional rights to | :30:32. | :30:37. | |
grandparents. Or to be used as a weapon in any disagreement. He will | :30:38. | :30:44. | |
recall that on January 31 of this year my constituent Lorraine Bushell | :30:45. | :30:53. | |
and grandparents support group had a day in Parliament and an issue that | :30:54. | :30:58. | |
they raised was not that grandparents have a specific rights | :30:59. | :31:02. | |
to access their grandchildren but the right of the child, as in | :31:03. | :31:05. | |
France, to have contact with extended family. I do recall the day | :31:06. | :31:14. | |
that was held here in fact I think it was held not to far from here. | :31:15. | :31:22. | |
Lots of members were there to lend their support to the campaign. Also | :31:23. | :31:26. | |
to receive some advice and best practice offered on the day. He will | :31:27. | :31:36. | |
not be surprised, only dismayed, to know that at my last surgery I saw | :31:37. | :31:40. | |
grandparents are suffering like this as well and there please was could | :31:41. | :31:46. | |
this be a change in thinking and culture around this because they | :31:47. | :31:49. | |
were told their only recourse was through the courts and didn't want | :31:50. | :31:52. | |
to put their grandchildren through that or further increase tensions. I | :31:53. | :32:01. | |
am grateful for her intervention and I have had similar constituents who | :32:02. | :32:12. | |
related stories to me. I am also grateful for the previous | :32:13. | :32:15. | |
intervention speaking about the law in France and I think that is | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
something that should be considered. I understand that the law in England | :32:21. | :32:26. | |
and Wales gives family court powers to make decision about children and | :32:27. | :32:35. | |
with whom they can spend time. Grandparents must seek permission of | :32:36. | :32:38. | |
the court but it is likely to be allowed if teams in the child's best | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
interest. It could be reconsidered to give grandparents and automatic | :32:44. | :32:47. | |
presumption to the family court. Losing access can be more difficult | :32:48. | :32:51. | |
without having access to information about the children are knowing their | :32:52. | :32:57. | |
whereabouts. At my surgery a lady came to see me and told me she | :32:58. | :33:00. | |
didn't know where her grandchildren are living or what they looked like | :33:01. | :33:03. | |
anymore and have no access to information about them. She would | :33:04. | :33:10. | |
love to have had contact with them but it was also worrying her not to | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
have any information or knowing if they were safe. I was able to write | :33:15. | :33:20. | |
Northamptonshire and ask that if any Northamptonshire and ask that if any | :33:21. | :33:26. | |
information was passed back. They replied to Save the Children were | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
safe. Sometimes there are obvious safeguarding reasons why information | :33:32. | :33:34. | |
cannot be shared but I do think this could also be looked at again to see | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
how the law protect safeguarding issues while also allowing | :33:40. | :33:40. | |
grandparents to basic information about grandchildren just to feel | :33:41. | :33:47. | |
reassured they are safe and well. I hope that after the election, the | :33:48. | :33:51. | |
issue of grandparents' access to children can be taken forward by | :33:52. | :33:55. | |
working together to major the voice of grandparents is taken into | :33:56. | :33:58. | |
account when working with families. I draw my comments to an end but | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
look forward to hearing contributions from other colleagues | :34:04. | :34:15. | |
and from the Minister. Jim Shannon. Can I congratulate him for doing it | :34:16. | :34:28. | |
so well? It is an issue in the House today of some importance to us who | :34:29. | :34:29. | |
are here. It is an issue that comes up through | :34:30. | :34:51. | |
my advice centre back home and I declare an interest because I am of | :34:52. | :34:56. | |
that age, as a doting grandfather, and I look round the chamber and I | :34:57. | :35:01. | |
am much if everyone would be but I think you missed site are one of | :35:02. | :35:04. | |
those people who have achieved that goal. When I help my eldest son in | :35:05. | :35:13. | |
my arms years ago I thought nothing could top the pride. I was wrong. | :35:14. | :35:18. | |
There was a little girl who made it into this world and a special place | :35:19. | :35:25. | |
in my heart, eight years old and when I again thought there was no | :35:26. | :35:30. | |
more room, little media came along. Just three years old. There is | :35:31. | :35:35. | |
nothing more enjoyable than time with your grandchildren. Also the | :35:36. | :35:41. | |
fact that you can hand them back whenever they get a bit stroppy! | :35:42. | :35:46. | |
That is one of the great advantages of getting to be a grandparent. We | :35:47. | :35:53. | |
are here today to debate this issue because we want to try and give | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
access to grandparents. I am lucky because I have access. I am very | :35:58. | :36:04. | |
fortunate. Also fortunate that most of my family and friends are the | :36:05. | :36:14. | |
same. I am convinced he is a magnificent grandfather in many | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
respects. Almost an archetypal grandparent. It is also a two-way | :36:20. | :36:25. | |
thing because I can remember my grand mother virtually brought me | :36:26. | :36:34. | |
up. The relationship and want to be formed as carried me through my | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
entire life and I can't imagine anything worse than not having | :36:39. | :36:44. | |
access. I would ask if he agrees with the that the right of children | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
to access the grandparents is so important? Totally agree. I don't | :36:50. | :36:56. | |
think there is anyone in this hole that doesn't have the same opinion. | :36:57. | :37:03. | |
There was something special about a grandparent and that relationship. | :37:04. | :37:07. | |
My mother, who is still living, she will soon be 86, she dotes as a | :37:08. | :37:20. | |
great grandparent. There is very early bond between my grandchildren | :37:21. | :37:25. | |
and their great-grandmother as well. There is something very nice, a warm | :37:26. | :37:34. | |
feeling about those things. Unfortunately I know there are many | :37:35. | :37:38. | |
people who long to see their grandchild and are denied this | :37:39. | :37:41. | |
opportunity and this is the reason for the debate. I hope to go on | :37:42. | :37:45. | |
holiday in summer problem for the first time with my wife and | :37:46. | :37:51. | |
grandchildren and the memories will be the stuff of dreams. The | :37:52. | :37:58. | |
photographs will be special. I can spend quality time with no pressure. | :37:59. | :38:04. | |
If you lead your mobile phone at home, your excommunicate. This is | :38:05. | :38:16. | |
not something to for granted but when I see so many grandparents | :38:17. | :38:21. | |
chucked out of their grandchildren's lives, whether it is marital | :38:22. | :38:27. | |
break-ups, the spin off from a relationship that breaks down, | :38:28. | :38:31. | |
whether people move away or whether the children and grandchildren in | :38:32. | :38:37. | |
this case are merely used as a tool against the parents. But the | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
guidance on access for grandparents says that should initially be sort | :38:43. | :38:50. | |
through the parents or guardians. However if this cannot be agreed the | :38:51. | :38:55. | |
grandparent can go to court. That is all very well but the fact is that | :38:56. | :39:01. | |
is not as simple as that. That is not easy to do when parents are | :39:02. | :39:05. | |
estranged. Children are often used as a very painful weapon. As a | :39:06. | :39:09. | |
grandparent I can only imagine being cut off out of my granddaughter's | :39:10. | :39:17. | |
life. I would do everything to visit but if this was something that | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
couldn't be achieved, to have to go to court for access, which is | :39:22. | :39:25. | |
expensive and soul destroying, when we understand grandparents' rates | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
are so restricted. There was a salient point in the final few words | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
about the pain that going to court causes not only to the grandparents | :39:35. | :39:40. | |
but to the parents and the children. The children can't quite understand | :39:41. | :39:43. | |
what is going on and what all the arguments and fights are about but | :39:44. | :39:46. | |
they know there is something wrong. They are the piggy in the middle, | :39:47. | :39:56. | |
being pulled by all sides. All sides perhaps genuinely love their | :39:57. | :39:59. | |
children or grandchildren but that access is denied. I see the Minister | :40:00. | :40:07. | |
in his place, it is good to see him here and we look forward to his | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
response. More must be done to support access rights and if that | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
means the enactment of legislation, which I believe has been suggested, | :40:16. | :40:27. | |
which in -- which enshrines clear rights for grandparents, I think | :40:28. | :40:32. | |
this has to happen. One in for a working families relies on | :40:33. | :40:35. | |
grandparents for child care, which saves the Government money on tax | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
credits and childcare voucher schemes and it also follows that | :40:41. | :40:44. | |
grandparents should receive the benefit of government notice. That | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
is what we are trying to achieve, that their rights are protected. If | :40:49. | :40:57. | |
today's debate moves that process on and enables legislative change to | :40:58. | :40:59. | |
come in the next term of Parliament, I will speak strongly in support of | :41:00. | :41:05. | |
it, if the Minister is able to respond in a suitable way. Things | :41:06. | :41:13. | |
like Nanny tax credits are great but more support is needed for those who | :41:14. | :41:18. | |
are not able to see their grandchildren. I look to the | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
Minister to ensure that the new government after June nine takes | :41:23. | :41:27. | |
this on board and takes steps to clarify the rights of grandparents | :41:28. | :41:33. | |
throughout the UK and on the half of those grandparents who have no | :41:34. | :41:37. | |
access to grandchildren, I think that would be a compassionate step | :41:38. | :41:49. | |
in the right direction. It is a pleasure to serve under your | :41:50. | :41:51. | |
chairmanship. I would like to thank the honourable member for | :41:52. | :41:54. | |
Northampton South and congratulate him for being such an important | :41:55. | :42:00. | |
issue before Parliament. He succeeded in setting up various | :42:01. | :42:05. | |
considerations associated with this sensitive issue. Grandparents can | :42:06. | :42:12. | |
enrich the lives of children and provide support for parents trying | :42:13. | :42:15. | |
to balance work and home life. They can be the one people who get told | :42:16. | :42:20. | |
off by their own parents. I remember my grandparents, my mother's mother | :42:21. | :42:29. | |
telling her off, and often they are the ones to stick up for you and | :42:30. | :42:32. | |
give you little treats and things. I think the importance of grandparents | :42:33. | :42:39. | |
in the life of children cannot be stated often enough. Many have been | :42:40. | :42:45. | |
very lucky to enjoy a close and loving relation with their | :42:46. | :42:50. | |
grandparents. This is one of the best experience you can have. The | :42:51. | :42:58. | |
member who is now gone from his seat said so. Sometimes relationships | :42:59. | :43:05. | |
break down. Frequently the pain accompanies a breakdown of families. | :43:06. | :43:08. | |
At its most extreme, children are taken into care. Where there is a | :43:09. | :43:14. | |
responsible grandparent who can step in, it is surely to be welcomed. | :43:15. | :43:21. | |
A more frequent occurrences where a grandparent becoming detached from | :43:22. | :43:29. | |
the grandchildren when the parents separate. When it happens, off the | :43:30. | :43:38. | |
grandparents have been sent and feel excluded. It is quite right they | :43:39. | :43:43. | |
should have some form of redress to apply for access. The current means | :43:44. | :43:46. | |
of deciding where a child lives and with whom they have contact called | :43:47. | :43:54. | |
Child Arrangement Orders, which was introduced in 2014, to replace the | :43:55. | :44:00. | |
previous order. The Child Arrangement Orders can determine | :44:01. | :44:03. | |
where a child lives, who are child spends time with, and that person is | :44:04. | :44:08. | |
named in the order, as well as details such as who they can make | :44:09. | :44:14. | |
phone calls too, who they can live with, what activities they can do | :44:15. | :44:19. | |
with the specific person. Under the present system, grandparents have to | :44:20. | :44:23. | |
seek leave to court to apply for a Child Arrangement Order And Only If | :44:24. | :44:28. | |
They Have lived with the child for years. Generally this has to be | :44:29. | :44:37. | |
done". This can cause a lot of problems, because firstly, by having | :44:38. | :44:40. | |
the stipulation of minimum three years of staying with the child, can | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
exclude various different arrangements, where the grandparents | :44:46. | :44:48. | |
may not have is spent specifically three years with the child, but they | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
do see the children and provide a lot of support to the children. Over | :44:54. | :44:59. | |
the past number of years, it seems that the number of grandparents | :45:00. | :45:03. | |
applying for right of access seems to have been going down, which is | :45:04. | :45:10. | |
unusual, bearing in mind a lot of grandparents do want access to their | :45:11. | :45:14. | |
grandchildren. I think this is because having to go to the court | :45:15. | :45:24. | |
and go through the process. These things can be costly and | :45:25. | :45:25. | |
time-consuming. Many grandparents time-consuming. Many grandparents | :45:26. | :45:33. | |
are unwell and not able to avail of this process. The previous Labour | :45:34. | :45:39. | |
government produced a Green paper in 2010, where they intended to remove | :45:40. | :45:43. | |
the requirement to seek leave of the court. However, the family Justice | :45:44. | :45:51. | |
review was set on March 2010. Later on, this particular provision, while | :45:52. | :45:55. | |
supported by the Coalition Government, who then ordered a | :45:56. | :45:59. | |
review in November. But they took the view that the need for a | :46:00. | :46:04. | |
grandparents to apply for a leave of the court before making an | :46:05. | :46:06. | |
application form contact should remain. So we think that this may be | :46:07. | :46:16. | |
one very good reason about the reduction in numbers of grandparents | :46:17. | :46:23. | |
applying. Now, obviously everyone wants to roll out vexatious | :46:24. | :46:25. | |
grandparents are people who are doing it for malicious purposes and | :46:26. | :46:33. | |
want to make sure the people are doing with the best most of the | :46:34. | :46:38. | |
heart. But I'm sure the legal system can come up with an acceptable | :46:39. | :46:45. | |
halfway house, maybe perhaps more legal advice or free legal advice on | :46:46. | :46:50. | |
appropriate legal advice for the grandparents, as to what the | :46:51. | :46:53. | |
possible options are, and perhaps trying to make the process simpler | :46:54. | :46:56. | |
and speedier. How to be bring solutions to | :46:57. | :47:14. | |
problems? One way is through the mediation process. Does she feel | :47:15. | :47:19. | |
that might be a way of doing it? I'm looking towards the Minister for | :47:20. | :47:24. | |
that answer as well. I thank him for that intervention. That is one of | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
the helpful ways one can deal with these things, because arbitration or | :47:29. | :47:36. | |
mediation has proved to work in many scenarios. Is couples who are | :47:37. | :47:41. | |
separating, their own divorce settlements, or access to children. | :47:42. | :47:47. | |
But as one possible option that could be explored, which is perhaps | :47:48. | :47:50. | |
not an expensive option and much more straightforward. I am sure | :47:51. | :47:57. | |
legal minds and other in the systems can put their heads together and | :47:58. | :48:00. | |
come up with a system that is much more flexible and responsive to the | :48:01. | :48:04. | |
need of the grandparents being able to see their children, and not | :48:05. | :48:13. | |
having to go, what is seen as currently, enormous legal obstacles | :48:14. | :48:17. | |
and loopholes they have to jump over to try and get access. I know this | :48:18. | :48:21. | |
is an issue which is not really part of political, it is an issue | :48:22. | :48:26. | |
everybody feels and accepts that grandparents have an important role | :48:27. | :48:31. | |
to play. Coming up with a more flexible, lest costly and one that | :48:32. | :48:37. | |
requires grandparents to jump over less loopholes, I'm sure it is | :48:38. | :48:41. | |
something the department can look at and come up with a solution. I think | :48:42. | :48:49. | |
we have had a very constructive debate and a very warm-hearted one. | :48:50. | :48:56. | |
I think we have all founded moving to hear the honourable gentleman | :48:57. | :49:04. | |
talking about the love they feel for their grandchildren and a very | :49:05. | :49:07. | |
special rule that grandparents can play. The honourable lady. The about | :49:08. | :49:17. | |
her grandmother telling her mother offered what fun that was. I must | :49:18. | :49:23. | |
say, I think all of us will recognise that and how important | :49:24. | :49:28. | |
family life and extended family is to all of us. Equally, the | :49:29. | :49:32. | |
honourable gentleman for Stratford made a good point when he talked | :49:33. | :49:40. | |
about mediation. One of the things I thought, I have often thought | :49:41. | :49:47. | |
mediation can lead to the settlement or worse family dispute, or | :49:48. | :49:54. | |
breakdown in relationship, with less confrontation and party for everyone | :49:55. | :49:57. | |
involved, so I think that is a very wise point she was making. And the | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
comments were made about the pain of family breakdown, and the court | :50:03. | :50:08. | |
hearing. I think all of that is very well taken. I'm in the position as a | :50:09. | :50:13. | |
minister today where I cannot make any announcements, because we are in | :50:14. | :50:18. | |
Prada. But I have previously said that we will, assuming the | :50:19. | :50:25. | |
electorate allow it, we will have a green paper weight of the year on | :50:26. | :50:30. | |
family justice. That will provide an opportunity to look at these issues | :50:31. | :50:35. | |
and a number of others touched on by honourable members. But I should | :50:36. | :50:38. | |
congratulate my honourable friend, the member for Northampton South, | :50:39. | :50:44. | |
for securing the debate, on which is a vital and important issue and a | :50:45. | :50:49. | |
complex one. It is a pleasure also to serve under your chairmanship. | :50:50. | :51:01. | |
The sort of experiences we are talking about, heartbreaking | :51:02. | :51:04. | |
stories, as my honourable friend put it. | :51:05. | :51:18. | |
We heard about it from Eastbourne, with my honourable friend who was | :51:19. | :51:25. | |
talking about what she had heard from constituents about this issue. | :51:26. | :51:31. | |
And I agree with her adorable friend from Hendon, who made the point that | :51:32. | :51:35. | |
he has a strong supporter of his constituency. That this is not a | :51:36. | :51:41. | |
lady that should be turned into a new weapon, children being used as a | :51:42. | :51:47. | |
weapon. Most children see their grandparents as important figures in | :51:48. | :51:51. | |
the lives and benefit tremendously from the positive relations they | :51:52. | :51:55. | |
have with them. For many children, the loving relationships they have | :51:56. | :52:01. | |
other grandparents in rich family life. And grandparents often play a | :52:02. | :52:06. | |
key role in raising their grandchildren, particularly with so | :52:07. | :52:12. | |
many parents at work these days. And I recognise that grandparents can be | :52:13. | :52:16. | |
a great source of stability for children, when their parents do | :52:17. | :52:22. | |
decide to separate. They can provide a sense of continuity amid dramatic | :52:23. | :52:26. | |
circumstances, and at a time when children are fragile. Sometimes, | :52:27. | :52:31. | |
when parents themselves are unable to meet the needs of the children, | :52:32. | :52:39. | |
grandparents can take on the full responsibility of their care. | :52:40. | :52:43. | |
Parental separation, in many cases, grandparents will continue to enjoy | :52:44. | :52:48. | |
the relationships they had with the grandchildren, even after parental | :52:49. | :52:52. | |
separation, although the circumstances are obviously | :52:53. | :52:55. | |
different with the parents living apart. But there are some cases | :52:56. | :52:58. | |
where grandparents are prevented from seeing the grandchildren, and | :52:59. | :53:03. | |
there's no good reason for it. The government does recognise the | :53:04. | :53:08. | |
grandparents and grandchildren when grandparents and grandchildren when | :53:09. | :53:15. | |
parents separate. In such difficult circumstances, which are similar to | :53:16. | :53:18. | |
a bereavement, children often feel a greater sense of loss, not just the | :53:19. | :53:23. | |
loss of the parent, but also the loss of the grandparents. I'm sure | :53:24. | :53:33. | |
you will recognise these types of scenarios through the experiences | :53:34. | :53:39. | |
you have described, from talking to constituents. The impact of conflict | :53:40. | :53:46. | |
on children, in - conflict cases, grandparents can end up being viewed | :53:47. | :53:51. | |
by the other parent is being on the other party's side. And this can | :53:52. | :53:57. | |
become a barrier to continued involvement in their grandchildren's | :53:58. | :54:02. | |
lives. Grandparents can also be tempted to see the other parent as | :54:03. | :54:06. | |
the enemy, because they feel their son or daughter has been wronged. | :54:07. | :54:13. | |
And all this is the difficulty, the unpleasantness, the heart and | :54:14. | :54:18. | |
distress of break-up. Be feelings of hurt a fully understandable, but if | :54:19. | :54:22. | |
the children are exposed to this sort of adult conflict, it is | :54:23. | :54:27. | |
damaging for them. This is why the current law doesn't allow for any | :54:28. | :54:34. | |
decisions like that, but gives the court flexibility. When informal | :54:35. | :54:40. | |
attempt by grandparents to secure ongoing involvement in the | :54:41. | :54:44. | |
grandchildren's lives have failed, there is the option to ask the court | :54:45. | :54:50. | |
to intervene. That may not be something they want to do, because, | :54:51. | :54:55. | |
as my honourable friend for Eastbourne said, they may feel there | :54:56. | :54:59. | |
has been enough current and distress in the family without going to court | :55:00. | :55:05. | |
and basing it all again. But there are arrangements through the | :55:06. | :55:10. | |
Children Acts, which help grandparents to re-establish | :55:11. | :55:12. | |
relationships with the grandchildren when things go wrong, but it is a | :55:13. | :55:20. | |
court process. Under the Children Acts 1989, family courts can make an | :55:21. | :55:24. | |
order to determine whom a chalice to live with or spend time with, when | :55:25. | :55:29. | |
and where such arrangements are to take place. It Child Arrangement | :55:30. | :55:37. | |
Order would usually provide for direct contact, such as long or | :55:38. | :55:41. | |
short visits and overnight stays where appropriate. It can also broke | :55:42. | :55:45. | |
vied for the child to have no contact with the person or that may | :55:46. | :55:49. | |
specify that it is to be indirect, through e-mails or telephone cards. | :55:50. | :55:55. | |
That is a lot of flexibility provided by the power of the court | :55:56. | :56:07. | |
to make a Child Arrangement Order. This is in contrast to any perceived | :56:08. | :56:12. | |
rights of any adult family members. Whether the court orders at a | :56:13. | :56:17. | |
grandparent should have involvement in the child's life will depend on a | :56:18. | :56:24. | |
number of factors. Where one or both parents oppose such involvement, the | :56:25. | :56:28. | |
court will apply the factors in the wealthier check list, which is in | :56:29. | :56:34. | |
the first section of the Children Acts 1989. | :56:35. | :57:00. | |
The report can include the feelings of the child, although that is | :57:01. | :57:06. | |
considered more important, the order of the child is. It is open to | :57:07. | :57:13. | |
anyone, grandparents or other relatives, to apply for a Child | :57:14. | :57:24. | |
Arrangement Order. They usually need to obtain permission of the court | :57:25. | :57:28. | |
before proceedings can be started. This can appear as an extra hurdle, | :57:29. | :57:33. | |
but experience suggests grandparents don't usually have any difficulty in | :57:34. | :57:36. | |
obtaining permission, where the application is really about the | :57:37. | :57:40. | |
interests of the child. Permission to apply can be made about the same | :57:41. | :57:44. | |
time as making the application itself, and you just take a box. So | :57:45. | :57:50. | |
that isn't an extra fee or an extra process, there is just one hearing. | :57:51. | :57:55. | |
But believe requirement is not designed as an obstacle, but as | :57:56. | :58:04. | |
vexatious applications. There are exceptions. It is not | :58:05. | :58:18. | |
every case that requires leave. In certain circumstances, grandparents | :58:19. | :58:20. | |
don't have applied for permission. Under section ten. Five of the act, | :58:21. | :58:27. | |
a grandparent may be automatically entitled to apply if the child has | :58:28. | :58:31. | |
lived with them for at least three years. This means, it is not | :58:32. | :58:34. | |
continuous, it means three years within the previous five years. It | :58:35. | :58:42. | |
must have ended. That must be within three months. The grandparent might | :58:43. | :58:47. | |
also be able to apply using the provision if they have the consent | :58:48. | :58:53. | |
of both the parents. So, if either of the persons named in an existing | :58:54. | :58:58. | |
child arrangement order agrees that the film version bereaved apply, | :58:59. | :59:12. | |
then there was no need to apply. I prefer to be fact that grandparents | :59:13. | :59:16. | |
look after grandchildren whether they are in school the parents are | :59:17. | :59:20. | |
working whatever, as the Minister had any chance to give that | :59:21. | :59:25. | |
consideration in the process of Hal and maybe what grandparents do in | :59:26. | :59:29. | |
childminding could be part of the submission that we are trying to | :59:30. | :59:34. | |
find? -- how. If the grandparents are making a constructive, as they | :59:35. | :59:40. | |
would be the method was child keeping of course, with the Durham | :59:41. | :59:43. | |
and would give that to see if we could use that as a method of | :59:44. | :59:47. | |
agreement? Small Charitable Donations and Childcare Payments | :59:48. | :59:49. | |
Bill: it is certainly an interesting thought. -- it is certainly | :59:50. | :59:57. | |
interesting. I can't say what we would do because they are in that | :59:58. | :00:00. | |
funny period. The Orange Democratic period of the election. Very | :00:01. | :00:10. | |
important period, yes. We must not take -- we are in the Democratic | :00:11. | :00:16. | |
period. If the green paper process is to go ahead, as I think it would | :00:17. | :00:20. | |
cover all these issues could be looked at in that context. The | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
history of having minded the child in the way that the honourable | :00:25. | :00:27. | |
gentleman has mentioned is an important factor. I think all of us | :00:28. | :00:33. | |
would agree that disputes over children can be very complex. My | :00:34. | :00:39. | |
honourable friend made in these comments in his opening remarks. | :00:40. | :00:42. | |
Disputes can also affect wider family relationships and the | :00:43. | :00:45. | |
relationship between the children and significant relatives can be | :00:46. | :00:51. | |
vulnerable to a really unpleasant breakdown where there is a lot of | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
distress. Of course, nobody would want to rekindle distress or may get | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
worse for the child. Research has provided insight. A study by the | :01:01. | :01:09. | |
Nuffield foundation gives some insight into how easy it can be from | :01:10. | :01:16. | |
Wilder family members to be embroiled in this. -- wider family | :01:17. | :01:23. | |
members. In 197 case files found by courts in England and Wales in 2011, | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
the primary aim of the study was to understand the detail of different | :01:29. | :01:31. | |
types of childcare arrangements. These were set up during litigation | :01:32. | :01:37. | |
at County Court level. Also to shed some light on how different types of | :01:38. | :01:41. | |
County Court -- County Court order then in existence were used. 20% of | :01:42. | :01:45. | |
the cases examined Robert disputes between parents, but involve known | :01:46. | :01:53. | |
parents, such as grandparents, who cared for children. Three of the | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
cases concerned applications from grandparents to have contact. These | :01:58. | :02:05. | |
shed light on how grandparent can become directly involved in conflict | :02:06. | :02:07. | |
that can negatively influence their grandchildren. The findings also | :02:08. | :02:11. | |
demonstrate the considerable lengths to which the court will go to | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
facilitate a child's involvement with grandparents and the court was | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
a difficult task of wing of the benefits and risks of such contact. | :02:22. | :02:28. | |
I think we can all agree that the principle of grandparents being part | :02:29. | :02:31. | |
of a child's life is a very important one. -- weighing up the | :02:32. | :02:38. | |
benefits. Grandparents in public law cases, just to say something about | :02:39. | :02:41. | |
public law cases because grandparents do play an stomach an | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
important role here. It is the principle of the children act that | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
local authorities should support the upbringing of a child by the | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
families wherever possible, if it is the most appropriate way to | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
safeguard the child's welfare. Local authorities can apply to the court | :03:00. | :03:02. | |
for a care order, well they believe a child has suffered or it might | :03:03. | :03:08. | |
reduce risk of significant harm. The care order allows the local | :03:09. | :03:11. | |
authority to take over the wealth of the child. -- welfare. And having | :03:12. | :03:20. | |
looked after by local authorities bio dot-mac with wider family | :03:21. | :03:23. | |
members first if not possible to return them to the birth family. | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
Thereafter, with a friend and then other person connected with the | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
child. The court can appoint a special guardian for the child is a | :03:33. | :03:35. | |
permanent alternative to long-term care or foster care or adoption. | :03:36. | :03:42. | |
This is often a family member, such as grandparents or friends. In | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
conclusion, the court doesn't recognise the importance of children | :03:48. | :03:50. | |
maintaining relationships with grandparents following parental | :03:51. | :03:52. | |
separation. Family courts are cognisant of that when considering | :03:53. | :03:58. | |
applications relating to child arrangements, however such cases are | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
not such the mac straightforward, given tension and ongoing conflict | :04:03. | :04:05. | |
that can arise when parents separate. For that reason, as I'm | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
sure honourable members will agree, the welfare of the children must | :04:11. | :04:13. | |
continue to be the paramount concern. We have had a good debate | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
this afternoon, so I think good points have been made and, if the | :04:20. | :04:22. | |
green paper process goes ahead, which I hope it will, then that will | :04:23. | :04:28. | |
be an opportunity for us to consider this more fully and for | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
organisations which have particular viewpoints on this to make their | :04:34. | :04:41. | |
contributions. And there are a couple of minutes for a wind up if | :04:42. | :04:49. | |
that is necessary. I thank everyone for taking part in this debate. And | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
in my constituency will be watching this debate you have some experience | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
of this type of separation from their grandchildren will be grateful | :04:58. | :05:00. | |
that has been talked about and debated here in parliament and I | :05:01. | :05:03. | |
look forward to the green paper process hopefully continuing in the | :05:04. | :05:11. | |
autumn. Thank you. As many of the opinion says aye. The ayes have it, | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
the ayes habit. | :05:17. | :05:18. |