28/04/2017 Westminster Hall


28/04/2017

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 28/04/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Follow the story of Britain's exit from the EU on BBC News.

:00:00.:00:27.

Order, order. Tim Lawton to move the motion. I beg to move that this

:00:28.:00:35.

House considers post office closures. I'm grateful for the

:00:36.:00:38.

opportunity from the business committee to discuss this very

:00:39.:00:44.

important subject. The number of members this morning suggest it is

:00:45.:00:47.

something of an important subject and who would have thought that with

:00:48.:00:53.

an election on, as well. I will try and keep my comments as brief as

:00:54.:00:59.

possible. If members want to intervene rather than speeches, I

:01:00.:01:02.

will try and take some interventions. It would not be my

:01:03.:01:07.

intention to take a response at the end, as well, if that would help on

:01:08.:01:12.

the timing. I appreciate in previous debates on this subject as recently

:01:13.:01:16.

as November led by the gentleman for Luton North aired many of the issues

:01:17.:01:20.

I am sure members will want to repeat again today. There is concern

:01:21.:01:26.

about possible delays to future plans for the post office caused by

:01:27.:01:32.

the ensuing election. And of course there were outstanding concerns from

:01:33.:01:36.

that debate in November which I think the minister was rudely cut

:01:37.:01:40.

off from in divisions, where again it would be good to get some clarity

:01:41.:01:45.

today. Two Terrace, firstly my own local post office closures, I am

:01:46.:01:49.

sure everybody will have one they would like to air, but also the

:01:50.:01:54.

bigger picture of the long-term sustainability of the whole post

:01:55.:01:58.

office network. Can I first put on record that I think we should

:01:59.:02:02.

recognise the good work that has been done by the Government since

:02:03.:02:06.

2011 where the network has been stabilised. The number of closures

:02:07.:02:10.

has actually been substantially reduced. The subsidy for the network

:02:11.:02:15.

has been managed down from 210 million in 2012 to some 80 million

:02:16.:02:20.

this year, due to flexibility under some of the new arrangements. There

:02:21.:02:26.

are outside as well as downside. 200,000 additional opening hours

:02:27.:02:30.

every week, many of them at weekends in post office normally closed. Some

:02:31.:02:36.

?2 billion has been invested in the network plan since 2012. In contrast

:02:37.:02:42.

to previous years, were effectively half the network branches were

:02:43.:02:44.

closed in the previous ten years or so. I lost more than half of my post

:02:45.:02:51.

office, sub post office branches in my constituency. When I became an MP

:02:52.:02:56.

in 1997 there were nearly 20,000 branches, now down to about 11,000

:02:57.:03:01.

500. There are encouraging signs but worrying signs if all of a sudden

:03:02.:03:06.

you are faced with the closure at post offices in your own area. When

:03:07.:03:10.

the branches are being closed we promised the Crown post of this were

:03:11.:03:18.

sacrosanct and would remain the main flagship of the high street post

:03:19.:03:21.

office. They are important parts of the local community, the post office

:03:22.:03:27.

branches and the Crown post offices. Local businesses, retail and other

:03:28.:03:30.

small businesses heavily rely upon them. If you do not go to the high

:03:31.:03:35.

street use the post of as you do not use some of the neighbouring shops.

:03:36.:03:40.

They act as a community hub. There is like mine with a high pensioner

:03:41.:03:43.

population are particularly well used by the elderly population. And

:03:44.:03:49.

by those from disadvantaged backgrounds, especially those who do

:03:50.:03:51.

not have their own conventional bank accounts, as well. For those reasons

:03:52.:03:58.

the post of his remains well used. Something like 17 million customers

:03:59.:04:00.

a week. I will give way to the honourable member. I thank him for

:04:01.:04:05.

giving way and congratulate him on obtaining this debate. Is it not the

:04:06.:04:08.

case government needs to look at these services post offices provide,

:04:09.:04:13.

because they are losing those? And also the return they get on

:04:14.:04:17.

providing the service? I would like to come onto that. Why is the post

:04:18.:04:21.

office not growing instead of retrenching? In 2016 they announced

:04:22.:04:27.

the closure of 31 Crown post offices, branches. Even though the

:04:28.:04:32.

Crown offices are now breaking even having made a 46 million loss four

:04:33.:04:39.

years ago. Some other post offices have not been converted into the new

:04:40.:04:43.

type of offices and their future is still uncertain. In January this

:04:44.:04:49.

year a further 37 Crown Post offices were identified for closure,

:04:50.:04:52.

including the last two remaining ones in my constituency in lancing

:04:53.:04:58.

and sure. It caused huge worry and concern. -- in my constituency.

:04:59.:05:02.

There were a lot of demonstrations across all parts. What was

:05:03.:05:07.

particularly disrespectful is the first I found out about it when a

:05:08.:05:10.

constituent called me to ask what I was doing about it. The post office

:05:11.:05:15.

did not even have the courtesy to let the sitting MP and counsel no.

:05:16.:05:23.

They went through -- know about it. I was assured... Companies like WH

:05:24.:05:28.

Smiths have taken on more than 100 of the franchises and everything is

:05:29.:05:33.

supposedly working well. There are other chains that have been taken on

:05:34.:05:39.

including I gather Bargain Blues, an off-licence with some 30 branches.

:05:40.:05:46.

Some people may be concerned about the appropriateness of that. I was

:05:47.:05:50.

told both of those branches were not profitable and that is why they were

:05:51.:05:58.

going to be franchised out. The lancing branch in my constituency,

:05:59.:06:02.

apart from one very small sub post office right on the fringe of the

:06:03.:06:07.

village of Lancing looks after a population now of 27,000, for one

:06:08.:06:13.

post office. Not surprisingly the queues are frequent. It is the

:06:14.:06:18.

second largest business mark in the whole West Sussex with 220 companies

:06:19.:06:21.

employing more than 3000. The villagers last almost all of its

:06:22.:06:27.

bank branches. We were told we would lose the banks and we do all those

:06:28.:06:32.

services at the post office, so there is no concern anyway. If those

:06:33.:06:38.

branches are not making a profit it suggests they are not being run very

:06:39.:06:43.

well. It is certainly not true lack of usage and popular demand by the

:06:44.:06:48.

local population... Today I have just been told one of those branches

:06:49.:06:53.

is going to be transferred to a nearby convenience store. A

:06:54.:06:57.

convenience store which is much smaller than existing post offices.

:06:58.:07:03.

It has only operated since 2013. There will be extended opening hours

:07:04.:07:08.

on Saturday and Sunday and new disability access. It on the

:07:09.:07:12.

downside, nobody believes this store is big enough to house a replacement

:07:13.:07:19.

Crown post office. It will have fewer serving positions. There are

:07:20.:07:22.

serious concerns about queues already. It will not have the

:07:23.:07:27.

biometric enrolment service used for home office applications. There are

:07:28.:07:32.

concerns about staff transfer. We know from the post offices that have

:07:33.:07:39.

converted so far only ten out of 400 staff have come across. They are

:07:40.:07:46.

often going to minimum wage jobs. There are questions about ongoing

:07:47.:07:50.

training for those staff now working in non-Crown post offices. They

:07:51.:07:55.

tended to have a big turnover of staff as having the experience, as

:07:56.:08:00.

well. In many of the shops staff hours are cut. After initial

:08:01.:08:05.

promises about extended opening times, they tend to retrench. What

:08:06.:08:09.

happens if this model fails, as well? Some 8000 offices are now in

:08:10.:08:14.

convenience stores. The experience of convenience stores has seen a 4%

:08:15.:08:21.

reduction in hours of the members of staff since the National Living Wage

:08:22.:08:26.

came in. Some 13% of businesses face challenges about evaluation of

:08:27.:08:30.

business rates, as well. As we have seen from the Dalton's website there

:08:31.:08:38.

are 705 post office branches for sale. There is a lot of change and

:08:39.:08:43.

churning in the sector. Longer-term questions about the viability and

:08:44.:08:47.

sustainability of the new arrangements obviously arrive. There

:08:48.:08:51.

is another issue because both of my post offices are co-located with

:08:52.:08:57.

sorting offices. Not run by the post office, but by Royal Mail. But

:08:58.:09:00.

conveniently next to the post office. Again, experience has been

:09:01.:09:07.

without the anchor partnership tenants, the sorting offices are

:09:08.:09:11.

relocated to out-of-town sites. Far less convenient for people to go and

:09:12.:09:15.

get their deliveries from. Especially when you deal with an

:09:16.:09:17.

elderly population who might not be so mobile. We are going to have a

:09:18.:09:24.

consultation, and extended one, because of the election, on my post

:09:25.:09:28.

office, but we know there is not a single consultation that has

:09:29.:09:32.

overturned any of the proposals to transfer these post offices. I fear

:09:33.:09:38.

that it is something of a token exercise, other than the

:09:39.:09:41.

measurements of an access door which might be changed by a few inches, or

:09:42.:09:46.

the sweet counter might be relocated because it is in the guide dogs, or

:09:47.:09:51.

whatever. Frankly it is a token exercise. I am aware citizens advice

:09:52.:09:56.

do a good job overseeing the body and I am aware some of their

:09:57.:09:59.

research suggested in the new format that has been some improvement in

:10:00.:10:04.

some cases to access and service, as well. Overall the fears are the

:10:05.:10:10.

queues get longer, the timings take longer, the services are less

:10:11.:10:14.

consistent. You're dealing with different and new staff. It is just

:10:15.:10:21.

not as good as it used to be. It brings me to my second point, Sir

:10:22.:10:25.

Edward. Where exactly is the post office going? Everything the post

:10:26.:10:31.

office have done, the statistics I mentioned in terms of making it more

:10:32.:10:35.

efficient, producing -- reducing losses and perhaps extending hours,

:10:36.:10:41.

are based on retrenchment. Baker made policy that sees about others,

:10:42.:10:45.

certainly the directly owned ones, getting smaller and offering fewer

:10:46.:10:49.

services to customers. -- based on the policy. Fewer than 100 will be

:10:50.:10:57.

directly owned Crown post offices. The financial services part of the

:10:58.:11:00.

post office should be a big moneyspinner and is diminishing. At

:11:01.:11:05.

the beginning of the year, 150 financial specialists were made

:11:06.:11:10.

redundant. There was a specialist office in Lancing which was closed

:11:11.:11:16.

earlier this year. The mortgage specialist advice they get, because

:11:17.:11:19.

of their relationship with the bank of Ireland, gets a one off payment I

:11:20.:11:26.

gather of just ?800 for creating mortgages and no ongoing revenue.

:11:27.:11:29.

That seems to be selling themselves cheaply. They are caught in a

:11:30.:11:35.

relationship until 2023. It does not sound profitable for the post

:11:36.:11:38.

office. My question to the Minister, I hope she can enlighten us more,

:11:39.:11:45.

why is the post office not making more of financial services in

:11:46.:11:50.

particular given they are a trusted name, a presence on the high street

:11:51.:11:54.

and at a time when conventional banks are disappearing from the high

:11:55.:12:00.

street? I gather the revenue breaks down roughly some 47% as the revenue

:12:01.:12:04.

from stamp sales, increasingly available to buy anywhere, then

:12:05.:12:09.

there is government services for DVLA, fishing licences, these are

:12:10.:12:16.

all being squeezed, the revenue from them has been reducing. There is

:12:17.:12:20.

access to the current account banks as I have mentioned and banking

:12:21.:12:23.

protocols have been sorted out so they can cross fertilise different

:12:24.:12:26.

branches within a post office, which was a problem. Then the financial

:12:27.:12:30.

services were again it seems to be a declining market for the post

:12:31.:12:34.

office. Why are they not copying the example of the Challenger banks?

:12:35.:12:40.

Where banks like Metro are making a really good fist of expanding into

:12:41.:12:48.

these markets? Metro now has 915,000 customers, has taken ?8 billion in

:12:49.:12:51.

deposits, has 110 branches and it is growing. Why are we not doing what

:12:52.:12:58.

they have done in France, one thing we might want to copy from France,

:12:59.:13:05.

with their bank founded in 2006, specifically as a tool to help

:13:06.:13:10.

tackle financial exclusion? Now in 2016 it has a turnover of 5.6

:13:11.:13:14.

billion euros and a pre-tax profit of just over 1 billion euros.

:13:15.:13:24.

A fantastic opportunity for the state-owned Post Office to be taking

:13:25.:13:30.

advantage of changing markets and how we do our financial business by

:13:31.:13:33.

somebody who is trusted, and is on the High Street but for some reason

:13:34.:13:38.

not taking advantage of that. Why are they not making more of quick

:13:39.:13:42.

and collect services? Everywhere I go, there are shops on the High

:13:43.:13:45.

Street for people to collect their Amazon deliveries because they are

:13:46.:13:50.

not at home to do it. The Post Office is already on the High Street

:13:51.:13:54.

and surely could offer those services. 18% of Post Offices do not

:13:55.:13:58.

have those facilities and they will not have them if they move to

:13:59.:14:02.

smaller premises without the room to store and collect those parcels. The

:14:03.:14:07.

overall commercial revenue of the Post Office has been virtually

:14:08.:14:11.

stagnant in the last couple of years. So it is a great mystery as

:14:12.:14:16.

to why the Post Office is not at this time expanding and becoming

:14:17.:14:23.

more profitable, better for the taxpayer and for their customers,

:14:24.:14:26.

rather than following a long-term strategy which appears to be based

:14:27.:14:31.

on retrenchment and shrinking. Finally, questions I would like the

:14:32.:14:35.

Minister to answer, what is the big game plan for the Post Office? The

:14:36.:14:39.

network transformation programme will end by March of 2018 and 7,500

:14:40.:14:46.

traditional sub Post Offices will have been converted to the new

:14:47.:14:52.

model. What comes in at first after March 2018 in terms of further

:14:53.:14:58.

transformation and revenues? 85% of the public support the Government

:14:59.:15:03.

continuing, the taxpayer continuing to subsidise the Post Office and not

:15:04.:15:07.

just the obvious challenges facing Raul Post Offices were clearly there

:15:08.:15:15.

will be a sparsity challenge. Are there any further reductions planned

:15:16.:15:20.

in the next year? And also, as the Citizens Advice suggested, will

:15:21.:15:24.

there be an automatic brake if 5% of branches announced they are to be

:15:25.:15:29.

closed without breaking the access criteria which it is hard to do

:15:30.:15:36.

anyway? The biggest question is, why is the Post Office not using the

:15:37.:15:43.

current opportunities to expand, rather than retrenching? Especially

:15:44.:15:46.

as it has the security of government backing for its revenues and is a

:15:47.:15:53.

trusted name. In 2010 when the governing the promised to transform

:15:54.:16:00.

the Post Office, it's... I am on my final sentence, Sir Edward. In 2010,

:16:01.:16:09.

for a significant expansion in its banking services, in reality, I've

:16:10.:16:12.

fear it has said -- failed to safeguard these measures as revenue

:16:13.:16:17.

has fallen by 40% and income from financial services has been

:16:18.:16:20.

stagnating. Closing flagship branches and getting rid of

:16:21.:16:23.

experienced staff and putting counters at the back of the stores

:16:24.:16:27.

is not a great plan for innovation which I think is what our

:16:28.:16:30.

constituents want to see. Question is that this House

:16:31.:16:35.

considers Post Office closures. I have a problem, 12 people are trying

:16:36.:16:40.

to get in, so I will impose a four minute limit. If people intervene,

:16:41.:16:44.

some people will not get in and I shall choose our most senior member

:16:45.:16:49.

first. I am pleased to follow the

:16:50.:16:52.

honourable gentleman, who has made some very valid points indeed.

:16:53.:16:57.

Because of time, I simply want to concentrate on the willing whole

:16:58.:17:01.

Post Office in the borough of Walsall. This is the second attempt

:17:02.:17:11.

to do so. The first was in 2013, which led to an adjournment debate

:17:12.:17:15.

at the time. The opposition in the town was unanimous foreclosure and

:17:16.:17:20.

Nacho, as no surprise. Particularly in a place like other areas where

:17:21.:17:28.

you do not normally get unanimous opinion. But I found no one in

:17:29.:17:36.

Willinghall who wanted to see the Post Office closed. Then came the

:17:37.:17:40.

Indian welcome news which said that the Post Office had changed and

:17:41.:17:46.

instead of closure, it had been decided to retain and invest in the

:17:47.:17:52.

local Post Office and it was part, listen to these words, part of

:17:53.:17:56.

building a modern and profitable and sustainable network. The joy does

:17:57.:18:04.

not last long with the Post Office management. And under the latest

:18:05.:18:10.

closures, Willenhall is due to face the axe. The honourable gentleman

:18:11.:18:16.

was right about talking about public consultation. I am all for

:18:17.:18:21.

consultation. But as far as the Post Office is concerned, it is as much

:18:22.:18:27.

consultation as in North Korea. It is as much of a choice like Henry

:18:28.:18:36.

Ford said, you have any colour of my car, as long as it is black. So

:18:37.:18:43.

there is no consultation. Indeed, when I received the original letter

:18:44.:18:47.

stating consultation was going to take place, I explored it. I said,

:18:48.:18:53.

if residents, long or they writes to me and make it clear they are post,

:18:54.:18:56.

will it make any difference? The answer was quite clearly know and it

:18:57.:19:02.

would be a question of consulting on the alternative, toilet facilities,

:19:03.:19:09.

car parking and so on. But on the crucial issue of whether or not the

:19:10.:19:13.

Post Office should close, a decision had been made and there would be no

:19:14.:19:16.

change at all. So much for consultation. And what concerns me

:19:17.:19:26.

is not simply the closure of the Post Office. What I have found is

:19:27.:19:30.

that bank closure and Post Office closure tends to go together.

:19:31.:19:35.

Whether it is the first Post Office or the bank is the case may be, and

:19:36.:19:42.

it has undoubtedly such closures certainly when it also includes the

:19:43.:19:51.

bank, an adverse affect on local communities. We had a demonstration

:19:52.:19:55.

the other week, the union was involved. Elected representatives

:19:56.:20:02.

and of course, the public. We were just outside Willenhall crown Post

:20:03.:20:06.

Office, stating our opposition to the closure. What was happening

:20:07.:20:10.

inside the Post Office? I will tell the Minister if she is listening, a

:20:11.:20:15.

lengthy queue, no lack of business. Quite clearly, this is a Post Office

:20:16.:20:20.

which is central in Willenhall but it does not seem to matter to the

:20:21.:20:26.

Post Office or to the Government because the Post Office management

:20:27.:20:30.

is acting under intense pressure from the Government and they should

:20:31.:20:37.

not have any doubts about that. So I would say it is most unfortunate

:20:38.:20:40.

what is happening. I will continue to do my best with other people in

:20:41.:20:47.

Willenhall and with the unions to try and retrain the -- retain the

:20:48.:20:52.

Crown Post Office, but the chances are slight. But I simply conclude

:20:53.:20:57.

with these words, Sir Edward, I use the opportunity last time to have

:20:58.:21:01.

the adjournment debate, to make The Voice of Willenhall heard in the

:21:02.:21:05.

House of Commons, I do so today and hopefully... Order, order, Iain

:21:06.:21:10.

Duncan Smith. Thank you very much indeed. To be

:21:11.:21:16.

brief, I completely support my honourable friend who has initiated

:21:17.:21:22.

this debate and he has made all the basic national points. And also, I

:21:23.:21:26.

support much of what the honourable man has just said about his own Post

:21:27.:21:32.

Office. I am here today because I have a Post Office, a Crown Post

:21:33.:21:36.

Office, in my constituency in George Lane and the proposal now which was

:21:37.:21:43.

announced that they were going to close that Crown Post Office, it is

:21:44.:21:48.

as my honourable friend said situated ironically very close to a

:21:49.:21:52.

sorting office, which I understand is now wants to shut the sorting

:21:53.:21:58.

office as well. So we will have a serious blight in the area, the

:21:59.:22:01.

people who want to pick up parcels will have to go either opt to North

:22:02.:22:06.

Chingford which is some distance and the chat traffic is never easy, and

:22:07.:22:11.

for the Post Office itself, we will have a calamity on the High Street.

:22:12.:22:14.

It is worth reminding the Post Office and the Government that the

:22:15.:22:20.

Post Office is part of that chain of integral elements in a High Street

:22:21.:22:24.

which at the moment, bit by bit, is being removed. The banks have

:22:25.:22:29.

disappeared. And in my area and many others, there is real Russia to get

:22:30.:22:35.

rid of small industrial estates -- real pressure. They are vital to the

:22:36.:22:40.

life of those communities. Because people who work in those industrial

:22:41.:22:43.

estates use the High Street during the day to find their food and to

:22:44.:22:48.

shop generally, so they have a continuous life. And this Post

:22:49.:22:52.

Office is integral because it brings people into the community,

:22:53.:22:55.

especially elderly people, to the Post Office, and they will do

:22:56.:23:00.

shopping around that. So the High Street will continuously suffer from

:23:01.:23:04.

this. And as my honourable friend has said, there are really much

:23:05.:23:11.

better ways to do this. The absence of any sense of innovation inside

:23:12.:23:16.

Post Offices about this is quite remarkable. When you think they own

:23:17.:23:21.

some very prime sites. And these could be used in a flexible manner.

:23:22.:23:25.

One of the things that when I was leader I wanted to do was to

:23:26.:23:30.

persuade them to allow the organisation to use the Post Offices

:23:31.:23:34.

as part of the average, which I will suggest is another thought the

:23:35.:23:38.

Government needs to press again on because they were negative about

:23:39.:23:41.

that and really did not want when the time that. The idea that you can

:23:42.:23:45.

have terminals inside the Post Offices that people could receive

:23:46.:23:48.

reasonable advice from people in the Post Office about claims to do with

:23:49.:23:54.

their benefits, particularly the elderly, was an area where they

:23:55.:23:58.

could easily be utilised for further government activity beyond the other

:23:59.:24:02.

work they have done. And the banking side is another element. Clearly,

:24:03.:24:07.

five years ago, they were told by the Government that if they came

:24:08.:24:12.

back with positive responses about how to that banking facility, they

:24:13.:24:15.

would be hers reasonably. It took a year to return with no response

:24:16.:24:22.

whatsoever. Only to turn around and said, they really did not think it

:24:23.:24:25.

was at all feasible for them to do it. So all along, there has been a

:24:26.:24:32.

negativity from the Post Office about any idea, any use of their

:24:33.:24:36.

facilities for elements that they really genuinely could to increase

:24:37.:24:41.

their revenue and become more flexible. And in my community,

:24:42.:24:46.

nearly eight years ago, we lost a sub Post Office up the road in the

:24:47.:24:50.

High Street and we were told, don't worry, the Crown Post Office will

:24:51.:24:54.

take all that business. And now we find the Crown Post Office is about

:24:55.:24:58.

to close, leaving us without any postal services in that area. I am

:24:59.:25:02.

the community and the unions are absolutely adamant that this is the

:25:03.:25:06.

wrong way to go and they must think again. And I think they have to be

:25:07.:25:09.

more flexible and more reasonable, and I call on them to do just that.

:25:10.:25:17.

Alistair Carmichael. I congratulate the honourable member for

:25:18.:25:22.

contributing to this debate and to all his colleagues from the

:25:23.:25:29.

backbench Business Committee. Post Offices and sub Post Offices are

:25:30.:25:35.

central to the life of so many of our small, raw and village

:25:36.:25:39.

communities. But that is very much the case and as we now see the

:25:40.:25:45.

withdrawal of other services such as clearing banks from small

:25:46.:25:51.

communities, that is a problem that will only grow. Maintaining a

:25:52.:25:54.

vibrant and viable network of sub Post Offices across smaller and more

:25:55.:26:00.

raw communities is now more important than it has ever been. In

:26:01.:26:04.

my time in Parliament, I have seen a large number of Post Office

:26:05.:26:08.

closures. Although whenever there is a structural programme of closures,

:26:09.:26:10.

we generally do quite well out of it we generally do quite well out of it

:26:11.:26:14.

and we do not see that many Post Offices close because we have a

:26:15.:26:20.

small population spread over a large area of the rain. But what you have

:26:21.:26:25.

seen is this constant process of attrition where time after time, at

:26:26.:26:30.

see sub Post Offices closing temporarily because the person

:26:31.:26:35.

running them is retired or has moved away or simply just got fed up and

:26:36.:26:45.

who can blame them? There is one to open in Orkney, it has been a

:26:46.:26:48.

Herculean effort to find somebody to take that on but it does show it has

:26:49.:26:55.

possibilities if the community is willing, with the willingness of a

:26:56.:26:58.

handful of people to make it work and it is still possible to achieve

:26:59.:27:02.

that. It is very difficult to make a sub Post Office work as a

:27:03.:27:05.

stand-alone business and for that reason, the two left are generally

:27:06.:27:11.

folded into shops, garages, cafes and other places. This, I think, is

:27:12.:27:17.

good for these businesses, but it does I think require a bit more

:27:18.:27:22.

flexibility and sensitivity on the part of the Post Office. I think of

:27:23.:27:26.

the example of the second largest town in Orkney which for years had a

:27:27.:27:30.

stand-alone sub Post Office but when that was no longer able to continue,

:27:31.:27:34.

it was moved into a baker's and general store where the community

:27:35.:27:39.

just does not feel comfortable despite the best efforts of the shop

:27:40.:27:48.

owner with people on one side of the counters the next somebody buying

:27:49.:27:49.

their messages on the other. The Post Office needs to provide for

:27:50.:28:01.

people willing to provide a service. In Orkney there is a great little

:28:02.:28:05.

local shop which also includes the Post Office. They tell me they have

:28:06.:28:09.

probably lost about one month of Post Office business because of poor

:28:10.:28:15.

connectivity. The broadband connection that is necessary to run

:28:16.:28:21.

a sub Post Office is so unreliable. That obviously has more to do with

:28:22.:28:27.

BT open reach and the providers of the Internet services for the Post

:28:28.:28:32.

Office is and their ability to speak to each other. It is an example of

:28:33.:28:36.

one area where if the Post Office took a more proactive role in

:28:37.:28:40.

supporting the sub postmaster 's and mistresses, they could make a real

:28:41.:28:47.

difference. A small country shopping Orkney talking to BT will get

:28:48.:28:52.

treated like a small shop. A big organisation like the Post Office

:28:53.:28:54.

would be listened to and taken much more seriously. In that practical

:28:55.:29:01.

sense, they would be able to support people who are providing one of the

:29:02.:29:04.

most important services the communities I have been privileged

:29:05.:29:09.

to represent have been for years and for that reason I hope the minister

:29:10.:29:13.

will take to the Post Office management the message that should

:29:14.:29:17.

be their priority. Richard Bacon. Pleasure to serve under your

:29:18.:29:22.

chairmanship. I congratulate the member for East Worthing and

:29:23.:29:24.

Shoreham airshow in securing this debate. -- in securing this debate.

:29:25.:29:34.

This is a geographically central area I represent where 10,000 local

:29:35.:29:38.

residents, more than twice the number of people on the electoral

:29:39.:29:41.

roll the time will come Royal Anglian Regiment home after their

:29:42.:29:48.

tours in Afghanistan and Iraq. It is at the heart of the community. And

:29:49.:29:53.

in particular at the heart of not only the current geographical

:29:54.:29:58.

centre, but even more at the centre of what will be the regenerated area

:29:59.:30:06.

with the project, a ?3 million regeneration, which includes 1.6

:30:07.:30:14.

million, ?1.65 million of Heritage lottery funding. Part of the scheme

:30:15.:30:18.

is to relocate some facilities in the town including the tourist

:30:19.:30:22.

information office further north from where they are now, away from

:30:23.:30:26.

the supermarkets on the fringes and towards the centre of the town. The

:30:27.:30:31.

proposal to close the Crown Post Office cuts completely against this

:30:32.:30:38.

project. It is no WH Smith has taken an interest in taking on, has

:30:39.:30:41.

expressed an interest in taking on the franchise, but the WH Smith

:30:42.:30:47.

branch here must be one of the smallest in the country, going up

:30:48.:30:51.

very narrow steps, through a narrow door, in fact two either side of the

:30:52.:30:54.

shop window but they are not remotely suitable for disabled

:30:55.:30:58.

access and nothing that could be done would make a serious

:30:59.:31:01.

difference. When you get inside the footprint of the store is very

:31:02.:31:06.

small. My local district council has itself invested ?400,000 of

:31:07.:31:10.

taxpayers money in the heritage Triangle project. Paragraph 2.32 of

:31:11.:31:16.

the South Norfolk local plan refers to a need to protect primary

:31:17.:31:20.

shopping centres, including specifically the Heritage Triangle.

:31:21.:31:25.

The proposal to transfer the Post Office to the WH Smith branch, apart

:31:26.:31:31.

from the problems of accessibility further to the south, would put the

:31:32.:31:34.

Post Office on the wrong side of town to the detriment of public

:31:35.:31:37.

investment in restoring the old town centre. It would also mean many

:31:38.:31:41.

public events such as the welcome home parade I referred to would take

:31:42.:31:47.

place instead of the background of a vibrant public building which is

:31:48.:31:51.

heavily used and it seems surprising to me and other members have made

:31:52.:31:54.

this point that it is not possible that possible for it to be

:31:55.:31:59.

profitable. I find it almost impossible to believe, frankly. It

:32:00.:32:01.

would mean public events take place including the annual Remembrance Day

:32:02.:32:05.

parade against the background of a redundant building, as there is no

:32:06.:32:09.

word on what the counters would do with the building. It would have a

:32:10.:32:17.

damaging effect by counteracting a significant public investment in a

:32:18.:32:22.

project specifically aimed at retiring -- providing the town

:32:23.:32:25.

centre. The current proposal by the Post Office to relocate is in the

:32:26.:32:34.

wrong place and wrong premises and against the trend of local public

:32:35.:32:37.

investment aimed at securing regeneration in one of our finest

:32:38.:32:41.

market towns dumber which has some of the oldest town records in the

:32:42.:32:46.

country. -- market towns, which has some of the oldest town records in

:32:47.:32:51.

the country. It should have a successful Crown Post Office at its

:32:52.:32:54.

heart. I hope the Minister will take these points to the Post Office and

:32:55.:32:58.

not only explain the point of my honourable friend about a more

:32:59.:33:03.

proactive approach but there are certain offices where their

:33:04.:33:06.

proposals are wholly unsuitable. We need and deserve something better.

:33:07.:33:13.

Sir Edward... The move of the motion was absolutely right in his

:33:14.:33:16.

thoughtful speech when he said there would be a repetition about many of

:33:17.:33:20.

the issues but also we would concentrate on the local area. Post

:33:21.:33:27.

offices are the heart of our community and vital for businesses

:33:28.:33:30.

and local communities themselves. The Isle of Anglesey, the beautiful

:33:31.:33:35.

Isle of Anglesey is well-known to the member for Chingford, I know. It

:33:36.:33:41.

has a market town. In 2014 the Post Office tried to close it down and go

:33:42.:33:46.

out to franchise. There was no suitable premises. Nothing has

:33:47.:33:50.

changed. Yet the Post Office has comeback repeating the same measures

:33:51.:33:57.

to close it down. It is a purpose-built building, in the

:33:58.:34:01.

centre of the town, it has access outside for buses and elderly people

:34:02.:34:05.

to access. It is perfect. When we had a previous closure of the sub

:34:06.:34:10.

post offices in the rural areas we were told this Crown Post Office was

:34:11.:34:16.

the hub of the whole area. Now they want to close it down. The Post

:34:17.:34:22.

Office is not listening. They need to start listening to local

:34:23.:34:25.

communities, local businesses will stop what we are seeing across the

:34:26.:34:31.

country is not just Post Office closures but mass bank closures, as

:34:32.:34:36.

well. Local businesses are finding it difficult to do cash handling,

:34:37.:34:40.

difficult to run their businesses and when the Post Offices closes the

:34:41.:34:46.

Crown Post Office down, empty buildings in the areas were a lot

:34:47.:34:50.

has been spent on regeneration is the legacy. It is

:34:51.:34:55.

counter-productive. I know the Minister is as anxious as we are

:34:56.:35:00.

that it does not happen. But we need a proactive government and proactive

:35:01.:35:03.

Post Office. We need to look at innovation. We need to look at the

:35:04.:35:09.

brand, improve the brand and improve the products of the Post Office.

:35:10.:35:14.

There are great opportunities to do that. We are talking at a time of

:35:15.:35:20.

mass bank closures. I suggest to the Minister she listens to the union,

:35:21.:35:27.

who is proposing a post bank. It would help all loans for local

:35:28.:35:30.

businesses in the area. We have been through a financial difficulty

:35:31.:35:36.

globally and local banks were not facilitating local businesses in the

:35:37.:35:40.

way they should. I do believe in a mixed economy. I do believe when the

:35:41.:35:45.

Government has a stake in the Post Office as it does, it should

:35:46.:35:51.

intervene in a semblance of all -- sensible way with a Post Office

:35:52.:35:56.

bank. Because this is a market town in my constituency where people come

:35:57.:36:00.

on a regular basis to do their business, and do their trade. It is

:36:01.:36:05.

historic but modern, as well. They do it in a more digital way these

:36:06.:36:09.

days. But again has the member for Orkney said, there are poorer

:36:10.:36:14.

broadband facilities. We need to improve infrastructure and Post

:36:15.:36:19.

Offices and start listening to local businesses and communities. Because

:36:20.:36:24.

of these closures of Post Offices and banks are ripping the heart out

:36:25.:36:30.

of local communities. The government rightly talks about localism. Local

:36:31.:36:34.

people, local businesses, they do not want this closure programme.

:36:35.:36:40.

They firmly oppose it. We as representatives, it is not the first

:36:41.:36:44.

time I have stood up my constituency, we want the Post

:36:45.:36:47.

Office to work. We wanted to work for our communities, for how

:36:48.:36:51.

businesses and for the future. I urge the Minister to look closely at

:36:52.:36:56.

the union proposals. Let's have a Post Office doing what it used to do

:36:57.:37:01.

when I was a kid, at savings banks and help businesses in the

:37:02.:37:05.

communities. That is the way forward and I hope the Minister will take

:37:06.:37:08.

that on board on behalf of the people. I'm afraid -- I'm afraid

:37:09.:37:14.

three more people are putting in, I have to reduce it again to three

:37:15.:37:19.

minutes. It is a pleasure to follow the honourable member. I want to

:37:20.:37:25.

raise three Post Offices in my area. The first one half opened for two

:37:26.:37:35.

days a week and sadly the announcement was made on social

:37:36.:37:40.

media before the consultation with the local community, but it is

:37:41.:37:48.

welcome. But this town of Lostwithiel is going to lose its

:37:49.:37:51.

permanent bank and it is having a mobile banking service for two

:37:52.:37:55.

sessions a week and there is no bus service. I am asking the Minister

:37:56.:38:00.

today, I am pleading with the Minister today, to do everything she

:38:01.:38:05.

possibly can to make sure my constituents in this town, bereft of

:38:06.:38:12.

vital public services, can have a permanent Post Office again. It is

:38:13.:38:18.

an agent Stanbury town. It has a lot of antique businesses and local

:38:19.:38:21.

businesses, privately owned as this is. They need a Post Office service.

:38:22.:38:30.

-- privately owned businesses. With hours serving everybody in the

:38:31.:38:34.

community, especially workers. In another situation we have had a

:38:35.:38:39.

little bit of a reprieve where my late husband was a fisherman, in

:38:40.:38:45.

lieu. We saw the Post Office closed in the east. Fortunately, like

:38:46.:38:49.

Lostwithiel with their two sessions, a hard-working postmaster from

:38:50.:38:54.

another village has come in and taken over. And they have a slight

:38:55.:39:01.

reprieve. Working closely with my local councillors and candidates we

:39:02.:39:07.

have secured a temporary reprieve. But we need a permanent solution in

:39:08.:39:11.

Looe, as well. It is a major tourist town. If tourists come they do not

:39:12.:39:16.

want to go to a town where they cannot access Post Office services.

:39:17.:39:22.

And in Torpoint, in my constituency, close to my home town, we have had

:39:23.:39:28.

the bank close, people have been told to use banking services, they

:39:29.:39:32.

can go to the Post Office, or they could make a three-hour round-trip

:39:33.:39:37.

to bank their money. Somebody has looked on a map and actually

:39:38.:39:43.

measured the distance and not taken account of the fact that on their

:39:44.:39:49.

own peninsular you have 1.5 hours of a bus ride to access the alternative

:39:50.:39:53.

bank. The Post Office is already heavily used. People are very

:39:54.:39:57.

worried they will not be able to cope with the extra pressure. Can I

:39:58.:40:03.

please ask the Minister to take account of rural Post Office

:40:04.:40:07.

services in places like South East Cornwall, to make sure people get

:40:08.:40:11.

the service they want. Thank you very much. Carol Mona Hampel stop --

:40:12.:40:23.

Carol Mona Hammer. In the north-west of Glasgow, with a population of

:40:24.:40:28.

about 13,000, it was developed post war to move people from the urban

:40:29.:40:32.

slums to the outskirts of the city. Much of the housing was poor

:40:33.:40:37.

quality. Lack of amenities means there are serious social issues,

:40:38.:40:43.

many of which persist. Digital literacy is low and one in every two

:40:44.:40:49.

children here are living in poverty. There are one or two shops around

:40:50.:40:54.

the estate. But the heart of the town is a small shopping centre with

:40:55.:41:00.

an avenue Post Office located. There is a small Post Office counter have

:41:01.:41:04.

the opposite end of the estate but it offers a far reduced service. A

:41:05.:41:13.

quick check shows it offers drop and go and foreign currency. Compared

:41:14.:41:19.

with the main Post Office, which includes passport services, banking,

:41:20.:41:22.

car tax, travel insurance, bus tickets, to name but a view, this is

:41:23.:41:29.

of great importance when we consider the high number of people in the

:41:30.:41:33.

town not able to access the Internet. A recent study by citizens

:41:34.:41:39.

advice Scotland estimated 50% of people in areas of deprivation do

:41:40.:41:44.

not have Internet access. Many of the tasks we can do at home are not

:41:45.:41:52.

possible for many of the residents. I visited the avenue Post Office a

:41:53.:42:01.

number of times and I have listened to the concerns of residents. Some

:42:02.:42:04.

talks about travel issues to the next nearest Post Office. They said

:42:05.:42:09.

it will be difficult and for some disabled people it will be

:42:10.:42:15.

impossible. This is a busy Post Office with queues at the counter.

:42:16.:42:21.

The locals are feeling very strongly about this. I have a petition with

:42:22.:42:27.

640 signatures. And another 500 signatures from online. I will

:42:28.:42:33.

present this petition today. This is a Post Office at the heart of the

:42:34.:42:38.

local community. Its removal would be devastating for the area. It is

:42:39.:42:44.

more than just commercial viability. This is a key public service. It

:42:45.:42:50.

must be protected. I would like to ask the Minister, has there been an

:42:51.:42:58.

impact assessment done on this area? Has the mobility of residents been

:42:59.:43:01.

considered when we are looking at these closures? This must not go

:43:02.:43:07.

ahead. It will be devastating for this community.

:43:08.:43:14.

Thank you very much, Sir Edward. This was the first debate I had in

:43:15.:43:21.

my name in Westminster Hall when I was elected in 2015 and I vowed I

:43:22.:43:26.

would continue to speak on this. So I thank the honourable member for

:43:27.:43:31.

giving me that chance. For over a year in my constituency, 8,000

:43:32.:43:35.

residents were unable to access a Post Office in Heathfield because

:43:36.:43:40.

the previous landlord what the doors and refused to allow trading.

:43:41.:43:47.

Alternatives with suggested during that time but no business was

:43:48.:43:51.

willing to take the Post Office on. Can I use this opportunity to thank

:43:52.:43:57.

Mr Sanjiv Patel from Heathfield, who had the vision and took the risk and

:43:58.:44:03.

took the Post Office on? Almost 12 months on, that business is now

:44:04.:44:08.

thriving. I want to pay tribute to him for taking that risk, and I hope

:44:09.:44:13.

other Honourable Members will find entrepreneurs in their constituency

:44:14.:44:17.

willing to do likewise to solve the situation is they have outlined. Can

:44:18.:44:24.

I also perhaps at this juncture pay credit to Post Office business? In

:44:25.:44:30.

my constituency, I have 25 branches and as a result of collaboration, we

:44:31.:44:36.

have 17 branches which have received investment to modernise,

:44:37.:44:40.

transforming into either a Post Office main branch are local. I have

:44:41.:44:46.

six branches with community status being the last shop in the village

:44:47.:44:50.

and they have received access to investment funding. And in total, I

:44:51.:44:55.

have 600 additional branch opening hours per week and ten branches open

:44:56.:45:00.

on a Sunday. If only our GP surgeries could follow suit, Sir

:45:01.:45:04.

Edward. Sir Edward, I want to return to the three points mage during the

:45:05.:45:08.

debate which I think are important for reform. Firstly, the issues of

:45:09.:45:13.

consultations. Despite not having a Post Office or a single business

:45:14.:45:16.

willing to put themselves forward and having just one option,

:45:17.:45:20.

Heathfield still had to run a consultation exercise, which only

:45:21.:45:24.

delayed the inevitable decision to go with the one business willing to

:45:25.:45:27.

put themselves forward. Secondly, the point has been made as to

:45:28.:45:33.

whether a franchise such as bargain booze is suitable. It is an alcohol

:45:34.:45:41.

selling business but we have seen no noticeable impact is as a result and

:45:42.:45:44.

if they are willing to take the risk, I would support them. The Post

:45:45.:45:50.

Office is a financial services provider and given such a large part

:45:51.:45:54.

of the customer base is pensioners and we need more High Street

:45:55.:45:58.

providers to give equity release solutions to pensioners. Shall care,

:45:59.:46:04.

perhaps that is an obvious match. Finally, in a settlement with over

:46:05.:46:08.

5,000 residents who have received no Post Office for six months, I would

:46:09.:46:12.

like to see the Post Office provide the base and the postmaster for the

:46:13.:46:17.

future. Today's debate is not about being

:46:18.:46:22.

against change. Those of ours with concerns recognise the world is a

:46:23.:46:26.

very different place, our wages, nobody here did a degree with the

:46:27.:46:30.

help of Wikipedia and some of us have jumpers older than the

:46:31.:46:35.

internet. But it is the question about what drives those changes. I

:46:36.:46:40.

have seen them on the member for Chingford! It is about what drives

:46:41.:46:45.

those changes. Those of us on this side have a concern that if those

:46:46.:46:49.

changes are driven by the market alone, they rarely deliver for the

:46:50.:46:53.

public the best outcomes and often end up hitting the poorest hardest.

:46:54.:46:58.

Nowhere is that clearer than in the changes and the closures we have

:46:59.:47:00.

seen in our Post Office in the last couple of years, 40% have been in

:47:01.:47:05.

our urban and poorest communities like my own and we now have two Post

:47:06.:47:10.

Offices in Walthamstow threatened under this latest proposal. In the

:47:11.:47:14.

short time available, I want to flag up a couple of points, first, this

:47:15.:47:20.

is happening but not in a vacuum but against a backdrop about bank

:47:21.:47:23.

closures and I caution the member for sure because what we have seen

:47:24.:47:26.

with the closure of banks and services Post Offices provide, it is

:47:27.:47:31.

simply not the same for residents. You might be able to get money out

:47:32.:47:35.

but you can do precious little else. That matters in communities like

:47:36.:47:41.

mine. I also disagree with the member for a place I am sure is

:47:42.:47:45.

beautiful but I cannot remember the name, that he says he is happy to

:47:46.:47:49.

see franchises of everybody and anybody, I do not think we want

:47:50.:47:55.

shops with our stamps and I am concerned that with WH Smith, the

:47:56.:47:59.

services have deteriorated in terms of disabled access and queueing

:48:00.:48:04.

times. I will give way very quickly. I absolutely agree with the point

:48:05.:48:08.

she is making and in terms of new Crossgate Post Office, one thing I

:48:09.:48:12.

have been concerned about is I have not been able to get any figures

:48:13.:48:16.

around the profitability in terms of what the state is with the Post

:48:17.:48:20.

Office. And the Minister needs to make sure they get that information.

:48:21.:48:25.

I completely agree and for those facing closures like in Walthamstow

:48:26.:48:33.

and our main Post Office, what could an alternative future be, what could

:48:34.:48:38.

make them sustainable and not white elephants in the provision of public

:48:39.:48:42.

services but jewels in the crown? And that comes very much with the

:48:43.:48:46.

role of financial services. In particular, the missed opportunities

:48:47.:48:50.

with the linkup with organisations like credit unions. Some members

:48:51.:48:54.

opposite did not think DWP services should be part of our Post Office

:48:55.:48:59.

system, but there is an opportunity when it comes to financial services.

:49:00.:49:02.

This is a country where under banking is still a major problem. 2

:49:03.:49:06.

million people who have no access to a bank account. 8% of all 18 to

:49:07.:49:12.

19-year-olds. We know that is rising debt in our communities and we see

:49:13.:49:17.

it in surgeries and in places in London alone, we see people who just

:49:18.:49:24.

have too much and there are big increases in consumer spending so

:49:25.:49:28.

the credit union movement is never more needed and that is for me a

:49:29.:49:32.

missed opportunity. I want to hear the Minister say why in six years of

:49:33.:49:35.

the Government talking about working with credit unions, we have not seen

:49:36.:49:39.

that linkup with Post Office. The credit unions have done fantastic

:49:40.:49:43.

work uncovering the impact of these closures for communities like mine

:49:44.:49:46.

and they would support that kind of work. I know in my local area they

:49:47.:49:51.

have not even asked the credit union whether they could work with them

:49:52.:49:54.

when they are talking about closing my two local Post Offices and now

:49:55.:49:58.

they say the consultation is over, it is too late to start that

:49:59.:50:04.

conversation. We must not lose this opportunity to build the financial

:50:05.:50:07.

inclusion in our communities need by bringing those two services

:50:08.:50:10.

together. As the member for sure has pointed out, in France, there is a

:50:11.:50:16.

different future for Post Offices rooted in financial inclusion

:50:17.:50:18.

services. What is the Minister doing to bring credit unions and not Yager

:50:19.:50:22.

meisters into our communities to bring them a stable future? Very

:50:23.:50:32.

grateful to be called in to the honourable gentleman for bringing

:50:33.:50:36.

this important debate. I was the shadow Minister for postal services

:50:37.:50:39.

for most of the last Parliament and I was told by many ministers and

:50:40.:50:42.

government that this closure programme would be the last closure

:50:43.:50:45.

programme in order to make the Post Office sustainable, but it appears

:50:46.:50:50.

that is not to be the case. I remember the phrase in the

:50:51.:50:54.

Conservative Party manifesto of 2010, that the dusty tomb in the

:50:55.:50:57.

shelves of political history, that the Government would make the Post

:50:58.:51:02.

Office the front office of government, well, they have done

:51:03.:51:05.

little to do that and that has given a situation here today where we have

:51:06.:51:10.

a number Post Office closures and a number of Crown office closures

:51:11.:51:13.

including incredibly popular Morningside Post Office in my own

:51:14.:51:18.

constituency. I could be cynical having been in this place. In years,

:51:19.:51:23.

but I don't see the Morningside Post Office franchising its system about

:51:24.:51:29.

being franchising, it is about closing the Post Office. I remember

:51:30.:51:34.

doing a public meeting when the first Crown Post Office franchising

:51:35.:51:37.

policies were going through and Post Office was pressed on what would

:51:38.:51:43.

happen if nobody came forward to take on these Post Offices and the

:51:44.:51:46.

answer was, we will probably have too embarrassed in it. -- we will

:51:47.:51:52.

probably have to invest in it. So we should be investing in Post Offices

:51:53.:51:55.

to make them places on our high streets where people can use them

:51:56.:51:59.

and enjoy them and have the services we need. We have a crisis in our

:52:00.:52:03.

shopping streets, we have the clearing banks closing branches and

:52:04.:52:07.

if they clearing bank is posing a branch in the local High Street, you

:52:08.:52:11.

get a letter to say you can use the Post Office for the services they

:52:12.:52:15.

will no longer be supplying. We have local shops in trouble, we have pubs

:52:16.:52:20.

in trouble. The Post Office is that iconic thing in the High Street that

:52:21.:52:24.

drives football and the pride in the High Street and gives you stability

:52:25.:52:28.

in terms of the operations of the retail units. And as an aside, Sir

:52:29.:52:33.

Edward, what is not helping in terms of my High Street in my constituency

:52:34.:52:38.

is not just of potential closure of Morningside Post Office, but the

:52:39.:52:42.

rates have increased by some of the retailers by over 100%. That is

:52:43.:52:49.

surely unacceptable if we want our high streets... I would love to, but

:52:50.:52:53.

I think we was struggle in terms of time to get everybody else in. I

:52:54.:52:58.

have seen the financial figures for the Morningside Crown Post Office

:52:59.:53:02.

and it is financially unviable for anyone to take it on. It is

:53:03.:53:05.

financially viable for the Post Office to run it but not for anyone

:53:06.:53:10.

else to going with the capital and rental payments they require and to

:53:11.:53:14.

make that a sustainable business, which makes me suspicious it is just

:53:15.:53:18.

a vehicle for closing that Post Office. Time to make the Post Office

:53:19.:53:21.

the front office of government. And the Minister has divided by that and

:53:22.:53:26.

do something the previous government did not do, and invest in our Crown

:53:27.:53:30.

Post Offices. I am grateful to the honourable

:53:31.:53:36.

member for ensuring today's debate which is an extremely worthy subject

:53:37.:53:39.

given it could be one of the last we have in this Parliament. I would

:53:40.:53:45.

like to declare an interest, I am a proud trade unionist and the

:53:46.:53:47.

Communication Workers' Union have done as much as anyone on this issue

:53:48.:53:52.

and put it at the forefront of political debate and campaign in

:53:53.:53:54.

communities such as those I represent in Norwich South. I

:53:55.:54:00.

believe the Post Office is a vital public service. It is a vital

:54:01.:54:04.

service and this issue needs to be at the rally, not least because the

:54:05.:54:08.

job losses behind these closures and the substitution of jobs reads the

:54:09.:54:15.

insecurity. It shows the seeming contempt for those who have

:54:16.:54:22.

responded with consultations and donated time and expertise only to

:54:23.:54:24.

be met with silence by the Government, so perhaps the Minister

:54:25.:54:29.

could touch on the reasons for that. And not just because the closure of

:54:30.:54:33.

Crown branches is likely to have a negative impact on the Post Office

:54:34.:54:39.

overall and its revenue and might describe this as deliberate managed

:54:40.:54:45.

decline. A key issue that draws this together is this Government's

:54:46.:54:49.

attitude to communities around the country and those who live in them.

:54:50.:54:54.

When branches get closed franchise, the lives of many we represent get a

:54:55.:54:57.

little bit worse. The small amount of research we have on this points

:54:58.:55:03.

to the longer spent... Lower levels of expert advice and poorer disabled

:55:04.:55:08.

access, ensuring a poorer service. I feel we must add to this a third

:55:09.:55:13.

erosion and that is what it means to live in a vibrant community. A place

:55:14.:55:17.

that has resources and services not dependent simply on the ongoing

:55:18.:55:22.

assistance of WH Smith. A place where people and the details and

:55:23.:55:26.

experiences of their lives count. Where the expertise of those like

:55:27.:55:30.

postal workers is valued and we can rely on their support to run our

:55:31.:55:34.

businesses and sent parcels to our families and sent and received

:55:35.:55:38.

votes. And we do so in the knowledge to those serving as can fully

:55:39.:55:42.

participate in our community. That those with disabilities can also be

:55:43.:55:46.

part of this normal life. Every week, we make 70 million visits to

:55:47.:55:53.

two Post Offices. This is not a niche activity, it is part of

:55:54.:55:56.

ordinary life, and chipping away at this is yet another example of this

:55:57.:55:59.

Government dinning out everyday life. These are policy choices and

:56:00.:56:05.

we rode them and the quality of many people's lives when we make them. --

:56:06.:56:13.

we erode them. We have seen the decline of a Great British

:56:14.:56:17.

institution over a long period of time and one which the public are

:56:18.:56:22.

very attached to on practical grounds. There has been a radical

:56:23.:56:25.

shift in the delivery of postal services and not for the good, there

:56:26.:56:30.

has been a contraction by about half over a period of time and a

:56:31.:56:33.

withdrawal of government support. Years ago, there was a major closure

:56:34.:56:37.

of sub Post Offices and at least on that occasion, there were eight sub

:56:38.:56:42.

Post Offices threatened with closure in my borough and five of those were

:56:43.:56:47.

kept open by a very vigorous campaign and made into a viable

:56:48.:56:50.

working network. What has unfortunately happened since is a

:56:51.:56:54.

success of government promised there would be no further closures and

:56:55.:56:59.

that is almost as bad because main Post Offices are moving the less

:57:00.:57:04.

good sites because they are cheaper. And one temporary closure sometimes

:57:05.:57:11.

amounts the years. Let me explain by what is happening at the moment to

:57:12.:57:15.

Shepherd's Bush, the town centre in my constituency. There is the last

:57:16.:57:21.

of our Crown Post Offices and it is very busy with queues out of the

:57:22.:57:25.

door, the staff are very good and even quite famous and feature in the

:57:26.:57:29.

columns of the comedian Richard Herring is a regular user of that

:57:30.:57:33.

Post Office. That is being forced out of its premises and I spent many

:57:34.:57:37.

hours trying to negotiate going to location in the town centre in the

:57:38.:57:42.

shopping centre, but it is going into the Westfield regional shopping

:57:43.:57:48.

centre which is very inaccessible to local people. Because it will go to

:57:49.:57:54.

the back of a WH Smith branch. The WH Smith deal is good for the Post

:57:55.:57:59.

Office and it is cheap space and it increases for fall, but it is not

:58:00.:58:03.

good for customers and therefore we have, I am pleased to say we are

:58:04.:58:08.

retaining our last sub Crown Post Office but in a mile -- in a less

:58:09.:58:12.

satisfactory way. The concession the Post Office has made is to provide a

:58:13.:58:18.

new sub Post Office in the town centre Shepherd's Bush but

:58:19.:58:20.

unfortunately I see little prospect of finding a location because the

:58:21.:58:28.

two nearest sub Post Offices have been closed once since last year and

:58:29.:58:34.

140 macro years on Saint and's Road, most of them serving large and very

:58:35.:58:40.

deprived communities and growing communities because there is a lot

:58:41.:58:45.

of poverty in the area. So I fail to see what is going wrong here. We

:58:46.:58:50.

must have a continuing network, we cannot have these temporary

:58:51.:58:53.

closures, they are happening is because the offer made to shops and

:58:54.:58:57.

existing sub postmasters will simply not good enough. And as other

:58:58.:59:01.

members have said, it is part of the decline of our high streets, the

:59:02.:59:05.

loss of banks, the loss of markets and the loss of everything that

:59:06.:59:06.

local people need to rely on. The Post Office in Stockton high

:59:07.:59:17.

street in 2014 was downgraded to a lesser franchise branch and buried

:59:18.:59:22.

away inside a WH Smith 's store. I likened it to privatisation at the

:59:23.:59:27.

time through the back door, ignoring the consultation that took place and

:59:28.:59:32.

put staff at of losing employment. Last year a Post Office was

:59:33.:59:34.

franchised and moved half a mile away from the high street, again

:59:35.:59:39.

buried inside another shop. In January this year the Post Office

:59:40.:59:44.

announced it would close the Billingham crown office branch

:59:45.:59:48.

making another franchise. It is more than a bit ironic that in the last

:59:49.:59:52.

few days I was briefed by the Post Office, talking about bank closures

:59:53.:59:56.

and how they can feel the service gap. The member for East Worthing

:59:57.:00:01.

and sure talk about the opportunities are there. Without a

:00:02.:00:05.

robust network they cannot deliver their usual services, never mind

:00:06.:00:17.

others on the heart of the banks -- never mind on behalf of the banks. I

:00:18.:00:25.

think the Government should adopt their recommendations, confirming

:00:26.:00:30.

appropriate funding, to keep the current network as well as raise

:00:31.:00:33.

awareness around public consultation regarding the closures and

:00:34.:00:39.

franchising branches. The union sent me a great brief, underlining key

:00:40.:00:47.

issues. I also support the idea of a post-bank which they have written to

:00:48.:00:51.

me about. They talk about the impact on customers, queue times, service

:00:52.:00:53.

times, disabled access, customer service. Replacing good jobs with

:00:54.:01:00.

insecurity. The majority of staff in the crown office will leave when it

:01:01.:01:04.

closes. The use of public money, the Post Office will not confirm how

:01:05.:01:11.

much is given to retailers, like WHSmith, so maybe the Minister can

:01:12.:01:15.

enlighten us. There is the wider social and economic impact. The loss

:01:16.:01:18.

of jobs and removing the physical shop from the high street. These are

:01:19.:01:24.

valid points. If we do not challenge these proposed changes and closures

:01:25.:01:31.

then every major community in my constituency has seen their post of

:01:32.:01:34.

his downgraded, if we do not fight against it will be detrimental for

:01:35.:01:40.

our constituents. I hope the Minister will rattle some pages

:01:41.:01:43.

here. Thank you. I congratulate the honourable gentleman for bringing it

:01:44.:01:48.

forward and setting the scene so well and getting us all a chance to

:01:49.:01:53.

speak. As an advocate of the Post Offices, as I represent a community

:01:54.:01:57.

that has long been concerned about the isolation and rely on the Post

:01:58.:02:02.

Office, this reliance is specifically created in Strangford

:02:03.:02:11.

because the banks are closing there. As the banks are closing they say

:02:12.:02:15.

they are going to use the local Post Offices and then they close and

:02:16.:02:18.

people jump on the bus and go on long journeys already on public

:02:19.:02:22.

transport to towns to access their banking. The news the Post Office

:02:23.:02:26.

will close at 37 of the biggest branches, leaving more than 300

:02:27.:02:30.

people out of a job in January was shocking and not expected. The

:02:31.:02:34.

branches are being franchised out and the idea is to keep services

:02:35.:02:39.

where customers want to meet them. It does follow on from operating in

:02:40.:02:43.

Rowell areas where large Post Offices are under pressure and it

:02:44.:02:46.

does not speak well for smaller Post Offices. In the five-day strike by

:02:47.:02:52.

members of a referred to jobs, pensions, branch closures and the

:02:53.:02:56.

proposed closure of my local branch. The fact the Post Office is talking

:02:57.:03:03.

about 37 partners as part of efforts to secure the services around the

:03:04.:03:11.

job concerns workers have. Everyone of us as MPs have been fighting hard

:03:12.:03:18.

for their Post Offices and we are talking about some 50% in the last

:03:19.:03:22.

30 years of closures. People are not certain as to where they will be

:03:23.:03:26.

employed and they need more security for current staff. Morale levels are

:03:27.:03:32.

at a critical level. I call on the Government to respond as a major

:03:33.:03:35.

stakeholder and invest in the Post Offices. I look to the Minister for

:03:36.:03:39.

a response to make sure this threat of closure does not continue an

:03:40.:03:42.

investment is made to enhance, not cut services. I received order of

:03:43.:03:48.

the strike action which would affect my area. As you will be aware, the

:03:49.:03:52.

union has called for further strike action on the 19th, 30th and 24th of

:03:53.:04:00.

December in three managed offices and on the cash distribution

:04:01.:04:04.

operation. People are working on 90 some percent of the network, 30,000

:04:05.:04:09.

individuals working in independently run Post Offices will not be

:04:10.:04:13.

involved in the industrial action. These are not currency figures.

:04:14.:04:19.

These are people working hard to pay their mortgage. I ask the

:04:20.:04:25.

Government... Not just for the workers and the Post Office but for

:04:26.:04:28.

those that use the Post Office in Strangford and the peninsular and

:04:29.:04:33.

the whole of the United Kingdom of this great nation of Great Britain

:04:34.:04:37.

and Northern Ireland. Thank you, Sir Edward. It is a pleasure to serve

:04:38.:04:44.

under your chairmanship. I thank the honourable member for Shoreham

:04:45.:04:47.

Airshow, etc, for bringing this debate to the House. It is testament

:04:48.:04:52.

to how passionate people feel in the last week of this parliament that so

:04:53.:04:56.

many members are here fighting for their local communities. I expected

:04:57.:05:01.

to walk into almost an empty room. I am amazed and delighted so many

:05:02.:05:05.

people are here. It is the second time I have spoken about this. I

:05:06.:05:08.

could not possibly sum up everything everybody said. But I can give

:05:09.:05:13.

examples from my own area where Motherwell is losing its current

:05:14.:05:18.

Post Office. It is situated in the town centre at Motherwell. And the

:05:19.:05:22.

number of businesses that will be affected if the closure goes ahead

:05:23.:05:27.

is incalculable. People go to the town centre to get to the Post

:05:28.:05:32.

Office, get their pension, spend money and we do not have a WH in

:05:33.:05:36.

Motherwell any more. We did not have one in Wishaw either. -- WHSmith in

:05:37.:05:43.

Motherwell. And the Wishaw Post Office closed years ago. We see the

:05:44.:05:49.

effect that had. It was relocated into a nice shop, a good shop, but

:05:50.:05:54.

unfortunately it was not designed to be a Post Office. Access is

:05:55.:05:59.

difficult. Queues snaked around effectively the old Woolworths. It

:06:00.:06:05.

does not work. We are really concerned. The C W U tried to save

:06:06.:06:14.

the Motherwell Crown Post Office and I myself conducted a survey of

:06:15.:06:19.

customers. They were all absolutely incandescent. 84% of the people I

:06:20.:06:24.

spoke to said they used the Post Office every week. And they have to

:06:25.:06:30.

queue up. People said if they lose this Post Office, small businesses

:06:31.:06:34.

especially who use their services will be hugely affected. They do not

:06:35.:06:38.

know where they will go. Because again we are losing out in the area.

:06:39.:06:45.

We are losing banks in the area. That is not what these small

:06:46.:06:50.

businesses want. They want to use banking services within the Post

:06:51.:06:52.

Office and do postal worker at the same time. Because so many of them

:06:53.:06:57.

rely on the Post Office to get things out to customers. It is

:06:58.:07:03.

really disturbing that the Government has said and claimed they

:07:04.:07:06.

would use the Post Offices as the front office for government. That

:07:07.:07:13.

has not happened. Speaking to the postmasters and post mistresses, the

:07:14.:07:15.

loss of government business has affected the business generally. I

:07:16.:07:20.

could not find any figures about Motherwell Crown Post Office. Its

:07:21.:07:25.

turnover and why it was being picked. I was told it was

:07:26.:07:31.

confidential commercially. If some people are getting, some members

:07:32.:07:35.

have access to information, why can't all members access this kind

:07:36.:07:40.

of information? It is not right. At the end of the day, we need to keep

:07:41.:07:46.

our Post Offices. We have lost a number of sub branches that have

:07:47.:07:51.

moved from very assessable and very local places further out into

:07:52.:07:57.

estates, housing schemes, which are not assessable for the majority of

:07:58.:08:00.

people. They sued the people that are there. Into the local

:08:01.:08:08.

convenience store. But they do not suit people... -- they suit the

:08:09.:08:15.

people that are there. It was right where the local authority has

:08:16.:08:18.

hundreds of workers. They cannot access either a Post Office if they

:08:19.:08:23.

close the one in the main town centre. It is going to be an

:08:24.:08:27.

absolute loss of work for those in that Post Office and for people and

:08:28.:08:34.

businesses around it. I feel very strongly about this and I am very

:08:35.:08:38.

glad to hear such cross-party support against this round of

:08:39.:08:46.

closures and the effect it has on the poorest in our communities, who

:08:47.:08:51.

use the Post Office the most. The most elderly in our communities, who

:08:52.:08:56.

use Post Offices the most. I would ask the Minister to come back and

:08:57.:09:03.

put pressure on the Post Office to absolutely halt this latest round of

:09:04.:09:15.

closures. Thank you, Sir Edward. It is a pleasure to serve under your

:09:16.:09:20.

chairperson ship. I congratulate the member for Worthing and sure for

:09:21.:09:26.

securing this debate. I pay tribute to the Communication Workers Union,

:09:27.:09:31.

who have helped to highlight these issues among the public and MPs, as

:09:32.:09:36.

well. The Post Office is a trusted national brand with a long history

:09:37.:09:40.

and it is instantly recognisable to people all across the UK. It forms a

:09:41.:09:45.

part of the everyday fabric of life, offering a wide range of products

:09:46.:09:51.

and services. It also provides an anchor for communities, decent jobs

:09:52.:09:55.

and important access to services in rural and urban deprived areas.

:09:56.:10:00.

Instead of making the Post Office bit for purpose for the 21st

:10:01.:10:04.

century, this government has let it fall by the wayside and has only

:10:05.:10:09.

contributed to a managed decline of a well loved and trusted

:10:10.:10:14.

institution. This government is intent on the privatisation of

:10:15.:10:18.

public services. The government used to say it would support a robust

:10:19.:10:23.

Post Office. A former prime ministers said it would be the front

:10:24.:10:28.

of office for government. -- a former prime minister. They have

:10:29.:10:34.

instead overseen a strategy of cuts costing thousands of job losses, as

:10:35.:10:37.

well as a decline in services provided. The Labour Party is clear,

:10:38.:10:42.

we will hold further privatisation and instead invest 80 million of

:10:43.:10:47.

public money already going in to make sure the sustainability of

:10:48.:10:52.

branches and services, ensuring services are retained and promoted

:10:53.:10:59.

and expanding the click and collect facilities, as well as providing

:11:00.:11:02.

banking and financial services, which we know are so vital to those

:11:03.:11:09.

who are financially excluded. In 2016, there were 62 closures and

:11:10.:11:16.

franchising programmes and 500 job losses from the cash handling

:11:17.:11:19.

section. More than 2000 jobs have been lost in total since 2016. On

:11:20.:11:26.

January the tenth in 2017 it was announced another 37 Crown Post

:11:27.:11:30.

Offices were going under the same franchising system. It could see 300

:11:31.:11:38.

experienced Post Office staff and 127 financial specialist roles

:11:39.:11:44.

across the network go. Crown Post Offices are typically run by the

:11:45.:11:47.

Post Office and directly employ staff. Often they are located in

:11:48.:11:55.

prominent high streets. Despite only 286 of all Post Offices being Crown

:11:56.:11:59.

branches, they have brought in a significant amount of revenue,

:12:00.:12:05.

between ten and 20% of the Post Office revenue overall. By

:12:06.:12:09.

privatising the officers, or transferring into retail shops like

:12:10.:12:13.

WH Smiths, this massively copra misers the services provided. For

:12:14.:12:19.

example, the consumer satisfaction falls overall. -- compromises

:12:20.:12:24.

services provided. Longer servicing time and poor access for disabled

:12:25.:12:28.

customers. We know the right 10% fewer counters per branch in WHSmith

:12:29.:12:33.

branches than Crown Post Offices and 17% less foreign currency and

:12:34.:12:39.

business banking positions. We know at least 30 postmasters retail

:12:40.:12:43.

businesses in a bargain boozed franchise. Not all franchises will

:12:44.:12:50.

have worse provision than before. The overall trend is saddening.

:12:51.:12:54.

Recent research shows that Post Office continues to deliver more

:12:55.:12:59.

than 4 billion in social value each year to people and businesses

:13:00.:13:05.

throughout the UK. Will my honourable friend give way?

:13:06.:13:15.

She has highlighted how when the Post Office and WH Smith, the

:13:16.:13:20.

service deteriorate but when you add on to the fact that some of these

:13:21.:13:27.

are in deprived communities, that puts people in dire straits. I

:13:28.:13:33.

completely agree with the honourable member. It is very saddening people

:13:34.:13:38.

in deprived areas just get further and further away from the wider part

:13:39.:13:44.

of accessing financial services which are so necessary to them.

:13:45.:13:57.

Since the privatisation of the Royal Mail, the government promised a

:13:58.:14:02.

transformative vision for the post office, a genuine office of the

:14:03.:14:07.

government, and for a significant expansion of its banking services

:14:08.:14:10.

but we have seen neither of these promises bail through. The post

:14:11.:14:13.

offers revenues from government services has fallen by some 40% and

:14:14.:14:19.

secondly, income from financial services has risen only by 2%, which

:14:20.:14:23.

isn't even keeping up with inflation. The Government talk

:14:24.:14:26.

cost-cutting measures but we know that 3.3 million was spent on

:14:27.:14:33.

refurbishing branches that were then franchised in 2016 at an average

:14:34.:14:40.

cost of 100,000 per branch. I was pleased that the government had

:14:41.:14:42.

initiated a consultation on the post office last December. At that time,

:14:43.:14:50.

the CW you delivered 75,000 postcards signed by members of the

:14:51.:14:54.

public calling to save the post office, the people's post. Only

:14:55.:15:02.

weeks later the post office announced 37 more Crown Post Office

:15:03.:15:04.

closures before consultation was even produced. Nearly five months

:15:05.:15:09.

later and we are still awaiting the government's response to that. In

:15:10.:15:15.

conclusion, the Government's track record has shown it to be a

:15:16.:15:18.

government happy to cut public spending at any cost. At a shied

:15:19.:15:22.

away from communicating with those affected. The consultation closed on

:15:23.:15:28.

December 21 has been delayed. Will the Minister tell the House when she

:15:29.:15:31.

had planned to publish the Government's response? Why have

:15:32.:15:36.

financial services been cut instead of promoting them? Why have we not

:15:37.:15:48.

looked at the example of a foreign example which has been so successful

:15:49.:15:54.

in providing revenue for the government but in providing services

:15:55.:15:57.

for those who need them most. I really would like to know what

:15:58.:16:01.

contingency planning there is for franchises that are already there

:16:02.:16:05.

and coming up for renewal as well as any new franchises, because the

:16:06.:16:10.

association of convenience stores have got major problems with their

:16:11.:16:14.

members who, due to the hike in business rates, may not wish to

:16:15.:16:23.

provide ongoing franchise services or actually want to carry on in

:16:24.:16:30.

future. Thank you. Thank you, Sir Edward. That is a pleasure to serve

:16:31.:16:33.

under your chairmanship and I would like to congratulate the honourable

:16:34.:16:38.

member for East Worthing and Shoreham for securing this crucial

:16:39.:16:42.

debate this morning, and the attendance here today and the

:16:43.:16:47.

passion with which members have spoken about their local areas and

:16:48.:16:51.

the value of the post office in their local areas shows just what an

:16:52.:16:56.

important topic this is, which will be, I suspect, for several of us

:16:57.:16:59.

here, our last debate in this Parliament. The Government certainly

:17:00.:17:05.

recognises the crucial role post offices play in communities across

:17:06.:17:09.

the country and between 2010 and 2018, the Government will have

:17:10.:17:14.

provided almost ?2 billion to maintain, modernise and protect a

:17:15.:17:18.

network of at least 11,500 branches across the country. The honourable

:17:19.:17:26.

member talks about post office closures. There are over 11,600 post

:17:27.:17:33.

office branches now in the UK and the network across the country is at

:17:34.:17:38.

its most stable for decades. Had experienced a substantial decline in

:17:39.:17:43.

numbers in the 13 or so years before 2010 and the number since 2010 has

:17:44.:17:50.

been kept absolutely stable, and the graph shows that to be absolutely

:17:51.:17:57.

accurate. And that really is down to the transformation and modernisation

:17:58.:18:00.

of the network, thanks to the investment that taxpayers have made.

:18:01.:18:05.

I thank my honourable friend for East Worthing and Shaw for his

:18:06.:18:08.

positive remarks about that network transformation programme and just to

:18:09.:18:14.

summarise, it has secured the transformation of more than 7000

:18:15.:18:19.

branches and I'm sure I'm not alone as a constituency MP in having felt

:18:20.:18:23.

and seen the benefits of those transformations in my own branches.

:18:24.:18:30.

More than 4300 branches now open on Sundays. There are nearly 1 million

:18:31.:18:34.

more additional opening hours to be added to the network every month and

:18:35.:18:43.

losses have been reduced from ?120 million to ?24 million. That is a

:18:44.:18:47.

substantial result on the past of -- the part of the post office

:18:48.:18:49.

management and the workers in the post office network. The subsidy

:18:50.:18:54.

that taxpayers have been obliged to put in during this period has fallen

:18:55.:19:01.

by 60% since 2012, and that's why it is more stable than it has been in a

:19:02.:19:07.

generation and the post office has managed those transformations whilst

:19:08.:19:11.

achieving customer satisfaction levels that have remained at over 95

:19:12.:19:16.

cents this programme. I will give way once, because time... I've only

:19:17.:19:23.

got ten minutes. I'm grateful to have a giving waited up she talks of

:19:24.:19:28.

most of the 60% reduction in taxpayer subsidy. Doesn't she think

:19:29.:19:32.

it would be better for the taxpayer to invest in our services like post

:19:33.:19:37.

offices and maybe prevent some of these quotas and downgrading and

:19:38.:19:40.

their four maintain services for these communities? I agree with him

:19:41.:19:48.

that we need to invest in the postal service and we are investing in the

:19:49.:19:52.

Postal Service and I hope that we will continue to do so but I'm

:19:53.:19:56.

afraid that one of the aspects of investment does involve making the

:19:57.:20:01.

existing structure of Crown Post Office is more efficient and more

:20:02.:20:07.

affordable and we have, through the process of modernisation and

:20:08.:20:11.

franchising of Crown Post Office is, been able to reduce the losses of

:20:12.:20:18.

those particular branches, which is a way we have of maintaining the

:20:19.:20:24.

promise that we made to keep post offices open in more rural and

:20:25.:20:28.

poorer areas that are not economically sustainable so I hope

:20:29.:20:37.

that the honourable member will understand that we are not

:20:38.:20:40.

disclosing ranchers, we franchising, making them more efficient, and we

:20:41.:20:46.

are then to fulfil our promises to areas that need a post-service but

:20:47.:20:52.

wouldn't have won if continuing to invest in loss-making post offices.

:20:53.:20:55.

I won't give way because I accept that not all Crown Post Offices lose

:20:56.:21:00.

money but the vast majority that have done are being franchised. I'm

:21:01.:21:04.

going to make some progress. My honourable friend for Bexhill High

:21:05.:21:08.

and battle put the case for the investment that taxpayers have made

:21:09.:21:12.

in the service in his constituency very well and I join him in

:21:13.:21:17.

congratulating Mr Sanjiv Patel on taking the risk, as many others have

:21:18.:21:21.

done around the country, and I have found that in taking that risk, not

:21:22.:21:26.

only has been good for their business, it has also been for the

:21:27.:21:31.

consumer. The post office is doing more for customers, doing so more

:21:32.:21:37.

officially for the taxpayer and ensuring that post office services

:21:38.:21:42.

remain about how streets throughout the country. Franchising or hosting

:21:43.:21:46.

some of the Crown branches is part of the post office's long-term plan

:21:47.:21:49.

to ensure the network is sustainable in the long term and it is not about

:21:50.:21:54.

closing services, it is about moving a branch to a lower cost model and

:21:55.:22:01.

often a better location for customers, securing and improving

:22:02.:22:05.

delivery of services. The change from a crown to a franchise or host

:22:06.:22:09.

branch has been undertaken previously in many locations around

:22:10.:22:13.

the UK and is a proven success in times of inner -- in terms of

:22:14.:22:17.

sustaining services as post offices share staff and services with a

:22:18.:22:26.

successful retailer, such a some of the samples we have heard this

:22:27.:22:30.

morning. Crown branches have moved from a ?46 million annual loss in

:22:31.:22:35.

2012 to a break even position today and that is no mean feat. There

:22:36.:22:39.

continue to be Crown branches that are loss-making and that is why I

:22:40.:22:44.

don't think that we can stand in the post office's way as they make their

:22:45.:22:49.

service more efficient, more sustainable and more accessible to a

:22:50.:22:51.

wider number of people around the country. Will she give way? I will

:22:52.:22:59.

give way. I just would like to make the observation that we've got a

:23:00.:23:04.

very packed house and even the members on your own side have

:23:05.:23:12.

actually told of their concerns and experiences that don't actually ring

:23:13.:23:18.

true on the fact that you have given to us. It just seems quite bizarre

:23:19.:23:22.

that there are so many of us telling you that we have got problems. The

:23:23.:23:27.

fact that the Minister has just said the government should not stand in

:23:28.:23:31.

the way does not seem to be the correct response. It would seem that

:23:32.:23:37.

we have got the responsibility to provide, and the government has to

:23:38.:23:41.

do that, a proper service for all our communities and clearly the

:23:42.:23:45.

figures that many eloquent people have given to all of us today

:23:46.:23:49.

doesn't seem to be very much at odds with the view of the Minister. --

:23:50.:23:56.

does seem to be. I say to the honourable lady that I have taught

:23:57.:23:59.

mostly so far about financial issues and they are undisputed facts that

:24:00.:24:04.

crowns were losing 46 million and are now breaking even, and there are

:24:05.:24:07.

still some loss-making ones to deal with. I appreciate that changes like

:24:08.:24:12.

these are not easy, especially when it involves staff who worked for

:24:13.:24:16.

many years, and I know she has had a briefing from the CW you and I have

:24:17.:24:20.

met the CW you on many occasions and I sympathise with their position but

:24:21.:24:25.

it is essential that the business continues to manage its costs to

:24:26.:24:28.

ensure it can meet the challenges facing our high streets, let alone

:24:29.:24:34.

the Post Office, now and in the future, as the way we shop and

:24:35.:24:40.

access services continues to change. Several members have pointed out

:24:41.:24:44.

about the government services and I agree, in 2010 we did have hopes as

:24:45.:24:48.

a government that the Post Office could take over many more government

:24:49.:24:53.

services but the rapidity with which some of those services have migrated

:24:54.:24:59.

to being accessible on the internet has meant that that particular hope

:25:00.:25:05.

has not come to enough fruition. The staff in Crown branches that are

:25:06.:25:07.

being franchised to have the opportunity to transfer to the

:25:08.:25:14.

franchisee in line with the TU PE process, or they can choose to be

:25:15.:25:17.

the business and the Post Office does offer a very generous

:25:18.:25:21.

settlement process and agreement, reflecting the hard work, commitment

:25:22.:25:25.

and dedication that many of those employees have shown over the years.

:25:26.:25:29.

But I reiterate the point that a more efficient Post Office is able

:25:30.:25:33.

to support and supplement thousands of small businesses, like were

:25:34.:25:39.

outlined by my honourable friend for South East Cornwall who spoke with

:25:40.:25:42.

great authority about the needs of people in her largely rural

:25:43.:25:46.

constituency and the government takes those needs very seriously and

:25:47.:25:50.

has honoured the commitment to maintain the service, even where

:25:51.:25:55.

they are not viable on a financial basis, to people who live in the

:25:56.:25:59.

rural parts of her constituency. I won't give way. I've got no time

:26:00.:26:03.

left. I want to answer the point that the honourable member the lady

:26:04.:26:07.

for Washington and Sunderland West made, which I agree with, that the

:26:08.:26:11.

poorer urban areas are also having a great problem in accessing local

:26:12.:26:15.

services and it's not just rural areas. I'm pleased to tell her that

:26:16.:26:19.

this is a real issue that the Post Office is now focusing on and I'm

:26:20.:26:25.

hopeful... I have examples of where the post offices are now revisiting

:26:26.:26:30.

areas where they previously closed branches ten years ago in those

:26:31.:26:37.

poorer areas to talk to retailers about setting up a Post Office Local

:26:38.:26:41.

counter and I hope that that will succeed in her area. I've really got

:26:42.:26:46.

very little time. I also wanted to reassure the honourable lady for

:26:47.:26:50.

Motherwell and Wishaw, I listened to her heartfelt concerns for

:26:51.:26:53.

accessible Post Office in the town centre of Motherwell and I will ask

:26:54.:26:57.

the Post Office to meet her again to discuss the most sustainable option

:26:58.:27:01.

for a Post Office service in her town centre. Many members told about

:27:02.:27:06.

banking and I agree this is an opportunity for the Post Office, but

:27:07.:27:11.

the Post Office bank idea was looked at very closely in 2010-11 and it

:27:12.:27:18.

was decided at that time that the money that the Government had would

:27:19.:27:23.

be better off invested in the transformation of networks to secure

:27:24.:27:29.

the sustainable access to services across the country. I can't give way

:27:30.:27:36.

now, I've got no more time. I just wanted to close by saying that the

:27:37.:27:41.

Post Office banking services are increasing now. They've grown 6%

:27:42.:27:45.

over the last 12 months, and credit unions as well are being looked

:27:46.:27:50.

at... Well, they are and I will write to the honourable lady, if I'm

:27:51.:27:54.

returned, and tell her what the Post Office plans are with regard to

:27:55.:27:59.

credit unions. Many others have raised issues on the Minister is

:28:00.:28:02.

refusing to give way to answer to those questions. Could you give me

:28:03.:28:05.

some guidance whether the department is able to give us that information

:28:06.:28:11.

as as possible? That is not a matter for me to talk I ensure the

:28:12.:28:15.

Minister, given the remaining 30 seconds, will do her best to answer

:28:16.:28:18.

any points. I am trying to conclude my response

:28:19.:28:27.

to legitimate concerns and I have responded to quite a number. But I

:28:28.:28:30.

must allow time for my honourable friend to conclude the debate... OK.

:28:31.:28:39.

I'm not going to fill it with interventions. I will carry on! I

:28:40.:28:44.

want to reassure members Post Offices do allow click and collect

:28:45.:28:49.

services. This is another area of potential growth. They are available

:28:50.:28:56.

from 10,500 local Post Offices. Members were saying they do not have

:28:57.:29:02.

them, but they do. In 10,000 500. If they do not have them in your

:29:03.:29:05.

branch, write to me and we will look into it. The allegation powers are

:29:06.:29:14.

reduced after time in convenience stores, I am pleased to say this is

:29:15.:29:18.

not the case. Opening hours are not decreasing in the fullness of time.

:29:19.:29:21.

I will give way to the honourable member. She has just told the House

:29:22.:29:26.

the Post Office is working with the credit unions. That is not what they

:29:27.:29:30.

have told us. Nothing has happened in the last five years. Everybody on

:29:31.:29:34.

this side talks about financial inclusion. Will she go back and look

:29:35.:29:39.

at it again and work with alternative providers who will

:29:40.:29:44.

deliver? The Post Office does work with credit unions where it can.

:29:45.:29:50.

There is a common link through the Co-op in some transactions. The

:29:51.:29:54.

difficulty has been, and as the lady is an expert on credit unions, maybe

:29:55.:29:59.

she can help us solve the problem. The problem is not having a common

:30:00.:30:05.

blanking -- banking platform. When they have developed a common

:30:06.:30:10.

platform, further working with credit unions should be possible. We

:30:11.:30:13.

take the subject of financial inclusion very seriously. I just

:30:14.:30:19.

wanted to talk a little bit more about banking. I agree with... I

:30:20.:30:25.

think the honourable gentleman is happy for me to continue. Order,

:30:26.:30:30.

order. A most interesting debate. We have all got Post Offices but I am

:30:31.:30:36.

afraid I have two finish here. We have a more important subjects now

:30:37.:30:41.

with dogs, with Nicky Morgan. Nicky Morgan. What a cheek!

:30:42.:31:19.

Nicky Morgan to move the motion. Thank you. It is a pleasure to serve

:31:20.:31:27.

under your chairmanship. Local authority and police force guidance

:31:28.:31:31.

for dogs attacking other dogs... I am delighted to open this important

:31:32.:31:35.

debate. The aim is to raise the issue of dogs attacking other dogs

:31:36.:31:39.

and calling for legislation and guidance to tackle this issue.

:31:40.:31:43.

Dangerous dogs are clearly a very serious problem. We know dogs can

:31:44.:31:48.

attack humans. Sometimes with tragic and even fatal consequences.

:31:49.:31:52.

Recently there have also been high profile dog attacks on other dogs.

:31:53.:31:58.

These are often caused by irresponsible owners failing to keep

:31:59.:32:01.

control of their animal. This is what happened to one of my

:32:02.:32:07.

constituents when her -- with her cocker spaniel. It was set upon by

:32:08.:32:11.

two large dogs in a local park let off their leashes. Thankfully it

:32:12.:32:17.

survived the attack. The experience has traumatised them to such an

:32:18.:32:19.

extent my constituent no longer goes to the park and the dog's confidence

:32:20.:32:25.

remains shattered. Another of my constituents was traumatised when

:32:26.:32:32.

her Jack Russell was killed by a dog walking by the union Kunal near my

:32:33.:32:37.

constituency. The owner of the other dog refused to take responsibility

:32:38.:32:41.

for the attack, leaving my constituents to cover all the

:32:42.:32:44.

veterinary bills. Both constituents were told by police the incidence

:32:45.:32:49.

were classed as dog on a dog, meaning no criminal offence occurred

:32:50.:32:53.

and no criminal charges could be brought. These cases are not

:32:54.:33:00.

unusual. I put in a Freedom of information request to all police

:33:01.:33:04.

forces in England for information on how many dog on dog attacks had been

:33:05.:33:09.

reported in the last two years. 14 out of 39 forces that responded at

:33:10.:33:14.

easily accessible data on these incidents and between the 14 there

:33:15.:33:19.

were over 1700 reported dog attacks on other dogs. Sussex Police alone

:33:20.:33:26.

recorded 828 attacks in two years. The pulse responsible for my

:33:27.:33:31.

constituency, Leicestershire, recorded 32 incidence of a dog

:33:32.:33:34.

attacking another dog and an additional 82 cases where a dog

:33:35.:33:38.

attacked a dog and person in the same incident. It is clearly very

:33:39.:33:44.

concerning. It is important police forces and local authorities have

:33:45.:33:47.

the power they need to tackle the problem and reduce the attacks. It

:33:48.:33:51.

is something I have worked on since I became a member of Parliament. In

:33:52.:33:57.

2013 I was delighted to support a campaign led by two of my

:33:58.:33:59.

constituents highlighting the problem. We submitted a petition to

:34:00.:34:03.

the Government and asked for the law to be tightened in this area,

:34:04.:34:07.

calling for the same legal rights for dogs when they are attacked

:34:08.:34:11.

currently for humans and for guide and assistance dogs. The petition

:34:12.:34:16.

collected 280 signatures and had the backing of a number of charities

:34:17.:34:20.

including the dogs trust, the kennel club and the RSPCA. I was pleased

:34:21.:34:24.

the then Minister for policing, the member for Ashford, visited my

:34:25.:34:29.

constituency and heard first-hand the problems faced by dog owners. I

:34:30.:34:37.

know his support was welcomed by local residents. Anti-social

:34:38.:34:40.

behaviour priming and policing act has since been passed into law,

:34:41.:34:44.

requiring police forces and local authorities and the courts to have

:34:45.:34:48.

greater powers responding to anti-social behaviour involving a

:34:49.:34:50.

dog before the situation becomes dangerous. When considering if they

:34:51.:34:55.

dog is a danger to public safety the court has to consider a number of

:34:56.:34:59.

circumstances, including whether the owner and person in charge is fit

:35:00.:35:03.

and a proper person to look after a dog. I am pleased it gives the

:35:04.:35:06.

courts the ability to intervene earlier and prevent attacks on

:35:07.:35:11.

people and other dogs. I recognise the act also strengthens the

:35:12.:35:13.

dangerous dogs act of 1991, to improve the response when a dog

:35:14.:35:18.

presents a risk to public safety. The offence of owning or being in

:35:19.:35:23.

charge of a dog which is dangerously out of control has been extended to

:35:24.:35:29.

all places, including owners homes. The maximum penalty... Yes, of

:35:30.:35:34.

course I will. I thank the honourable lady for giving way.

:35:35.:35:42.

Months ago, the lady will recall, the police had to shoot a dog in the

:35:43.:35:48.

street because it got totally out of control. Another area that concerns

:35:49.:35:52.

me is the fact there have been a number of cases of babies being

:35:53.:36:00.

attacked by dangerous dog. And the present sentence of six months in my

:36:01.:36:03.

view should be extended a lot further. I support everything the

:36:04.:36:08.

lady is saying in this matter. I thank the member very much indeed

:36:09.:36:11.

for his intervention and his support. I think it shows although

:36:12.:36:16.

the chamber may not be packed today, I know from looking at social media

:36:17.:36:21.

this issue is of great concern right across the country, in all of our

:36:22.:36:26.

constituencies. I will come on of course to talk about the fact that

:36:27.:36:29.

sometimes these incidents can lead to personal injury and even fatal

:36:30.:36:34.

incidents involving particularly young children and I will also talk

:36:35.:36:39.

about the sentencing, as well. He made some excellent points. I was

:36:40.:36:44.

talking bout the amendments to the Dangerous Dogs Act of 1991,

:36:45.:36:48.

extending the maximum penalty involving the death of person, the

:36:49.:36:52.

penalty to 14 years, five years were a person is injured and three years

:36:53.:36:55.

in any case involving the death or injury of an assistance dog. This is

:36:56.:37:00.

welcome news but does not give the same legal rights for dogs when they

:37:01.:37:04.

are attacked as it does for humans and guide and assistance dogs. It is

:37:05.:37:08.

important all dogs have the same protections and local authorities

:37:09.:37:13.

and the police at the power to properly punish the owner of the dog

:37:14.:37:16.

responsible. I would be interested to hear more about the minister's

:37:17.:37:21.

current thinking on this matter. As well as the anti-social behaviour

:37:22.:37:25.

crime and policing act, ministers have also introduced powers to help

:37:26.:37:28.

front line professionals tackle anti-social behaviour involving

:37:29.:37:32.

dogs. Police and local authorities can now intervene and issue

:37:33.:37:36.

community protection notices if a dog is causing a nuisance by

:37:37.:37:40.

repeatedly escaping or being aggressive. Owners of such dogs can

:37:41.:37:45.

be required to take remedial action, such as attending training classes,

:37:46.:37:50.

keeping the dog on a lead in public or repairing fences to prevent the

:37:51.:37:53.

dog leaving their property. It is clearly a step in the right

:37:54.:37:57.

direction. It brings me onto the other reason I applied for this

:37:58.:38:00.

debate and one in which I know the Minister is currently working on. In

:38:01.:38:04.

order for local authorities and police forces to successfully tackle

:38:05.:38:08.

this problem with the existing powers the Government has provided

:38:09.:38:12.

them with, they need to be made properly aware of them. I know last

:38:13.:38:17.

December the Department for environment food and rural affairs

:38:18.:38:22.

animal welfare issued a voluntary survey to police forces, local

:38:23.:38:26.

authorities and social landlords on measures to address dog control and

:38:27.:38:29.

reduce dog attacks in England. The aim was to inform the team of the

:38:30.:38:33.

effectiveness of existing measures and allow them to identify how

:38:34.:38:37.

intervention can be made more effective with a minimal burden on

:38:38.:38:40.

enforcement agencies. I look forward to hearing the outcome of the

:38:41.:38:46.

survey. The council in my own constituency has responded to the

:38:47.:38:48.

survey had raised interesting points which I would like to raise with the

:38:49.:38:54.

Minister today. I know they feel the incremental approach to processing

:38:55.:38:57.

dog attacks as well as the need to prove persistence makes the process

:38:58.:39:00.

lengthy. That often leads to frustration for the victim. The need

:39:01.:39:06.

to prove a breach of process means the dog has to attack three times

:39:07.:39:08.

before the owner can face the ultimate sanction of being

:39:09.:39:13.

prosecuted. That is clearly a concern. It provides the opportunity

:39:14.:39:16.

for a dangerous dog to attack two more times, as the member has talked

:39:17.:39:21.

about, potentially with tragical fatal consequences for another dog

:39:22.:39:27.

or even a child or an adult. That is sadly what happened in another case

:39:28.:39:32.

I am assisting with. The niece of my constituent Lexi Branson was killed

:39:33.:39:36.

by a dog, a four-year-old, at the home of my constituency -- in my

:39:37.:39:45.

constituency. The owner was not aware the dog had previously

:39:46.:39:48.

attacked another dog. While I will raise the specific issues from this

:39:49.:39:53.

case with the minister separately I wanted to mention it today because

:39:54.:39:56.

it demonstrates the need for urgent action to be taken to make sure a

:39:57.:39:59.

dangerous dog is not free to attack again. I cannot emphasise enough

:40:00.:40:03.

that just because a dog is attacked another dog does not mean they might

:40:04.:40:09.

not later attack a human and involve serious injury or potentially fatal

:40:10.:40:12.

consequences. One fatal incident is one too many. I welcome the

:40:13.:40:17.

minister's comments on this matter. Yes, of course. I will give way to

:40:18.:40:23.

the honourable member. Should we make sure we do not have an

:40:24.:40:29.

imbalance? There is also the side of human beings being cruel to dogs. I

:40:30.:40:35.

hope she agrees with me and the Minister will say something about

:40:36.:40:40.

the Battersea proposals. I thank the member for his intervention. He is

:40:41.:40:44.

absolutely right. I welcome the Battersea home, the cats and dogs

:40:45.:40:48.

home campaign, to stiffen sentences for animal cruelty. There are some

:40:49.:40:52.

truly terrible cases of animals being mistreated. I did not want to

:40:53.:40:58.

labour the point but there is the issue of irresponsible owners. I

:40:59.:41:02.

suspect we have all had situations as candidates and we will maybe in

:41:03.:41:07.

the next few weeks when we walked down a path, knock on a door, and

:41:08.:41:11.

deliver a leaflet and be faced with a rather angry looking dog. You're

:41:12.:41:17.

never entirely sure, because the owner says it is friendly, I see Mr

:41:18.:41:22.

Lee is smiling, whether it is friendly or has an appetite for

:41:23.:41:28.

canvassers. The honourable member speaks from personal experience!

:41:29.:41:34.

Returning to what I was saying about the survey, the council found the

:41:35.:41:37.

guide is very helpful but they feel sometimes it is too generic. For

:41:38.:41:42.

example the behaviour orders are difficult to apply to cases

:41:43.:41:45.

involving a dog. They suggested it would be useful if the guidance was

:41:46.:41:49.

more specific for dogs as living beings rather than property. And the

:41:50.:41:53.

issues arise for the welfare and cost of keeping a dog when action,

:41:54.:42:00.

and they would also have advice on escalating cases where there is no

:42:01.:42:03.

other option but for the owner to forfeit the dog. I am pleased the

:42:04.:42:07.

council have a good compliance rate of around 91% when issuing warnings

:42:08.:42:12.

to owners at the first stage of a community protection notice. But the

:42:13.:42:17.

council feel there was a lack of clarity in the Government's guidance

:42:18.:42:20.

for whether or not a case should be handled by the police under the

:42:21.:42:24.

Dangerous Dogs Act or as a civil case by the local authority. I note

:42:25.:42:29.

the Leicestershire local authorities have a memorandum of understanding

:42:30.:42:32.

with the local police about who handles each type of dog attack. But

:42:33.:42:36.

the council have said they would like to have more formal guidance. I

:42:37.:42:38.

would be grateful if the Minister would consider it these points as

:42:39.:42:44.

part of the Department review. It is clear these dogs continue to be a

:42:45.:42:47.

serious problem in local communities. I should say that of

:42:48.:42:50.

course there are many tens of thousands of dogs walked responsibly

:42:51.:42:55.

every day and their owners take great responsibility for them and go

:42:56.:42:59.

about their daily lives with no incidents or trouble whatsoever.

:43:00.:43:05.

Yes, there is a problem. The Freedom of information act numbers show

:43:06.:43:10.

there is a serious level of incidents, but I also want to pay

:43:11.:43:13.

tribute to those who look after their dogs well and deal with any

:43:14.:43:16.

aggression and take responsibility for them.

:43:17.:43:21.

Whilst I want to mention the positive work the previous and

:43:22.:43:25.

current governments have carried out, I do believe that it needs to

:43:26.:43:30.

be tightened further to ensure that attacks on other dogs are a criminal

:43:31.:43:37.

offence. As I have said, it is crucial that local authorities and

:43:38.:43:40.

police forces have comprehensive guidance available to them which

:43:41.:43:44.

details all the powers at their disposal to prevent the very real

:43:45.:43:49.

and tragic consequences that can arise when dangerous dogs attacked

:43:50.:43:52.

it up I'm grateful to the Health Authority is for allowing me to

:43:53.:43:55.

bring Mr Bates the chamber this morning. I know that the Minister is

:43:56.:43:59.

committed to animal welfare and all related issues and I look forward to

:44:00.:44:05.

hearing his response to this debate. Thank you very much. I would like to

:44:06.:44:09.

begin by congratulating my right honourable friend for securing this

:44:10.:44:16.

debate with police force and local authority guidance on police dogs

:44:17.:44:20.

attacking other dogs. I certainly understand that it must be

:44:21.:44:21.

incredibly traumatic for owners whose dogs have been attacked by

:44:22.:44:27.

other dogs, particularly as the owner is often a witness of that

:44:28.:44:31.

attack and I'd like to express my sympathy to her constituents and the

:44:32.:44:35.

owners of Ozzy the dog for the incident she describes and also her

:44:36.:44:41.

other constituent, the terrier that was attacked by a Rhodesian Ridge

:44:42.:44:44.

back and I completely understand that this is a very distressing

:44:45.:44:49.

time. It is completely acceptable for owners to allow their dogs to be

:44:50.:44:52.

dangerously out of control, whether around people or other animals, and

:44:53.:44:59.

attacks of this sort can affect the confidence of animals and can lead

:45:00.:45:03.

to instances where dogs start to change their behaviour and be afraid

:45:04.:45:10.

of going out. Over recent years the law on out-of-control dogs has been

:45:11.:45:15.

strengthened. This is an area that the government looked at quite

:45:16.:45:19.

closely. The dangerous dogs at me to 91 now applies the offence of

:45:20.:45:22.

allowing a dog to be dangerously out of control to all places, not just

:45:23.:45:30.

public places or a place where dogs have no right to be. This means dogs

:45:31.:45:34.

need to be under control in all places and at all times and this has

:45:35.:45:38.

particular relevance to those of us who will be delivering leaflets and

:45:39.:45:42.

going onto urine's property. We've all had experiences of dogs in most

:45:43.:45:48.

circumstances, I'm sure. The law also makes it a specific offence of

:45:49.:45:52.

allowing a dog attack on in assistance dog, for which a maximum

:45:53.:45:58.

penalty is three years imprisonment. The right honourable lady pointed

:45:59.:46:02.

out this was a new point that we introduced recently and the reason

:46:03.:46:05.

for specifically including an offence in relation to attack some

:46:06.:46:10.

assistance dogs was to emphasise the dependence upon which people who use

:46:11.:46:16.

these dogs have on their assistance dog and it was therefore considered

:46:17.:46:21.

that I must attack on an assistance dog in these circumstances was an

:46:22.:46:25.

aggravated attack and almost an attack by extension on the person

:46:26.:46:30.

themselves. There are real problems with attacks on assistance dogs. A

:46:31.:46:34.

huge amount of work goes into training these dogs and there have

:46:35.:46:38.

been many sad examples where, despite all of that work to train an

:46:39.:46:44.

assistance dog, it loses its confidence to be able to do that job

:46:45.:46:50.

and has to be retired from duty as a result of a single one of the tax.

:46:51.:46:53.

That is why we took the view that there was a very special case in the

:46:54.:46:59.

incidence of assistance dogs. Other penalties under the 1991 act were

:47:00.:47:03.

also increased significantly, in particular the maximum penalty for

:47:04.:47:08.

allowing a dog out of control was increased from two years'

:47:09.:47:11.

imprisonment to 14 years in cases where it results in the death of the

:47:12.:47:16.

victim and five years' imprisonment where the victim suffered serious

:47:17.:47:20.

injuries. Other laws also introduced as preventative measures. Under the

:47:21.:47:28.

anti-social crime and behaviour act 2014, Elisa and local authorities

:47:29.:47:32.

were allowed to take action in low-level incidents of anti-social

:47:33.:47:35.

behaviour, including where these involved adopted mock these of the

:47:36.:47:38.

incidents where a dog is causing a nuisance but no offences under the

:47:39.:47:43.

dangerous dogs at. In such circumstances, police or local

:47:44.:47:47.

authorities can take action by issuing a community protection

:47:48.:47:51.

notice or CPN to the owner or person in charge of the dog at the time to

:47:52.:47:55.

control the dog and stop the nuisance behaviour. Failure to

:47:56.:48:03.

comply with a CPN can lead to a fine of ?2500. This power means that

:48:04.:48:07.

police and local authorities can take action before a dog becomes

:48:08.:48:13.

dangerously out of control. Criticism of the dangerous dog that

:48:14.:48:16.

was that it only dealt with the issues after they had happened and

:48:17.:48:21.

many animal welfare organisations, dog keeping groups and veterinary

:48:22.:48:24.

organisations campaigned for the introduction of these types of

:48:25.:48:31.

notices. For more serious incidents of anti-social behaviour, such as

:48:32.:48:34.

using a dog to actually intimidate someone, there is the criminal

:48:35.:48:40.

behavioural order. This will be used in cases where a court is satisfied

:48:41.:48:43.

that an individual has engaged in behaviour that has caused or is

:48:44.:48:47.

likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress and finally, for more

:48:48.:48:50.

general matters, there are public spaces production orders, which

:48:51.:48:54.

place restrictions on dogs using clearly defined areas like

:48:55.:48:58.

children's playground areas and sports fields, and these are aimed

:48:59.:49:03.

at all dogs, rather than individuals. I note that my right

:49:04.:49:10.

honourable friend the Member for Loughborough has reported that

:49:11.:49:12.

Sharnbrook Borough council wanted to see specific guidance on the

:49:13.:49:20.

measures. I would say that in October 2014, to assist local

:49:21.:49:23.

authorities and the police, Defra published a practitioners' manual

:49:24.:49:29.

dealing with the responsible dog ownership, which provides

:49:30.:49:32.

practitioners with very specific guidance on how to use the

:49:33.:49:35.

anti-social behaviour measures specifically in relation to dogs and

:49:36.:49:39.

I would point out that I was a minister in Defra at the time, not

:49:40.:49:42.

with responsibility for this part of the portfolio, but we did have a

:49:43.:49:47.

debate in 2014 where a number of people were saying we should adopt

:49:48.:49:52.

measures similar to Stockport, where they had specific dog production

:49:53.:49:56.

orders. Our legal analysis was that these community protection orders

:49:57.:50:02.

are surplus but in the light of whether people raised concerns about

:50:03.:50:06.

whether this could be applied to dogs I asked my noble friend, the

:50:07.:50:11.

then minister for dogs, to address this issue that what prompted this

:50:12.:50:16.

guidance that was set at the time in 2014, almost three years ago. The

:50:17.:50:23.

practitioners' manual differs from the Home Office guidance doctrine,

:50:24.:50:26.

which was aimed at the broader use of anti-social measures, and was

:50:27.:50:31.

perhaps what Charnwood Borough council referred to. My department's

:50:32.:50:38.

practitioners' manual can be found on God .uk but I will ensure that

:50:39.:50:43.

after this debate, I will arrange for my office to send her office a

:50:44.:50:53.

paper copy. -- on gov.uk. I thank him for giving way. Would he express

:50:54.:51:01.

a view on the Battersea proposals? I have heard lots of proposals from

:51:02.:51:06.

Battersea. I'm not quite sure which ones he had in mind. But I would

:51:07.:51:10.

come back to my point that we did issue very specific guidance when it

:51:11.:51:17.

comes to how the CPN Looe could be used. Will give way so we can

:51:18.:51:21.

clarify. The proposal for longer sentences for people who abuse

:51:22.:51:28.

animals. I would prefer him to a debate that took place on this very

:51:29.:51:32.

matter a few weeks ago. I would point out that the Sentencing

:51:33.:51:38.

Council has just recently issued new guidance which took place this week

:51:39.:51:43.

and that makes it far easier for courts to award custodial sentences

:51:44.:51:46.

at the upper end of the range for these sorts of offences but

:51:47.:51:50.

sentencing is a matter for the ministry of justice and I'm sure

:51:51.:51:56.

they keep these issues under review. My right honourable friend also

:51:57.:51:59.

mentioned, all gave reference to the fact that police claimed that there

:52:00.:52:03.

needed to be a three strikes rule and unless the dog had attacked

:52:04.:52:07.

three times, prosecutions could be brought or, indeed, a CPN could not

:52:08.:52:12.

be used, and I am reliably informed by my officials that this is not the

:52:13.:52:16.

case. There is nothing in the law that says there must be three

:52:17.:52:20.

offences. The dangerous dogs at can be used in the first time there is

:52:21.:52:28.

an offence it comes to community protection notices, there was

:52:29.:52:30.

nothing in the law that stipulate there must be three offences before

:52:31.:52:34.

they can issue those. I think there is an issue here, which I was going

:52:35.:52:38.

to come unto, around enforcement, and there may be an issue of police

:52:39.:52:42.

forces that are reluctant to look at these issues because they believe

:52:43.:52:47.

there are other things they wish to focus on and they come up with

:52:48.:52:50.

internal operational procedures of this sort, but these ones created by

:52:51.:52:57.

the police, not a matter of law. I will give way to talk Can feminists

:52:58.:53:03.

are very much indeed for the clarification. I think it's really

:53:04.:53:08.

helpful to hear that. I will pursue it with Charnwood Borough council

:53:09.:53:12.

but I think Charnwood is a very responsible authority and they have

:53:13.:53:16.

worked closely with Leicestershire Police so they are labouring under

:53:17.:53:19.

some misapprehensions, I suspect that is very widespread amongst

:53:20.:53:22.

local authorities and police forces, and one of the purposes of today's

:53:23.:53:27.

debate was that MPs to express their concerns and for the Minister to

:53:28.:53:29.

show how seriously the government takes the sorts of incident and I

:53:30.:53:34.

were wonder whether he might think it is worthwhile to write a local

:53:35.:53:39.

authorities to reiterate some of the powers they do have. My right

:53:40.:53:42.

honourable friend is absolutely right and I very much welcome this

:53:43.:53:46.

debate and it is timely because as a minister in Defra in 2014, I felt we

:53:47.:53:50.

had addressed this issue by issuing the practitioners' guidance but, as

:53:51.:53:58.

she alluded to, whilst we accept that the powers are available for

:53:59.:54:02.

local authorities to use in all sorts of situations where dogs are

:54:03.:54:05.

causing problems, I accept that there are many instances of dogs

:54:06.:54:10.

being out of control and that is why, as she pointed out, my

:54:11.:54:13.

department has been looking at whether the powers are being used by

:54:14.:54:17.

the police and local authorities and, if so, what sort of effect they

:54:18.:54:22.

are having, and that is why we did issue a voluntary survey. We have

:54:23.:54:25.

invited all police forces and local authorities in England and Wales to

:54:26.:54:29.

respond to this and about the use of these anti-social measures. I can

:54:30.:54:33.

say that we've received many responses to the survey, which we

:54:34.:54:38.

are currently analysing. I'm told we expect the bat analysis by the end

:54:39.:54:43.

of May, so while we are all busy avoiding dogs on the doorstep during

:54:44.:54:46.

the election campaign, officials will be studying those responses.

:54:47.:54:51.

But I understand that initial indications and impressions from the

:54:52.:54:57.

evidence that we have received is that there remains some

:54:58.:55:00.

misunderstanding about the powers that are already available to local

:55:01.:55:04.

authorities and police forces and if that is the case, obviously, we

:55:05.:55:07.

would want to make sure that we raise their awareness about the

:55:08.:55:12.

powers they have. The focus of this debate is obviously on dog on dog

:55:13.:55:16.

attacks. As I mentioned at the start of my speech, section three of the

:55:17.:55:21.

dangerous dogs act makes it an offence to allow a dog to be

:55:22.:55:24.

dangerously out of control regardless of where it is and it has

:55:25.:55:29.

been a long held belief among enforcement agencies that so-called

:55:30.:55:33.

dog on dog incidents cannot be dealt with under the 1991 act, we do not

:55:34.:55:39.

believe this is the case. The 1991 act rides a definition of when a dog

:55:40.:55:42.

must be regarded as dangerously out of control. This refers to a dog

:55:43.:55:46.

being dangerously out of control when there are grounds for

:55:47.:55:49.

reasonable apprehension that it will attack someone. However, this

:55:50.:55:54.

definition is not exclusive and the words of section three of the 1999

:55:55.:56:00.

-- 1991 act could include, for example, where a dog attacks another

:56:01.:56:04.

dog or a dog attacked another animal. There is some case law in

:56:05.:56:09.

this area. In 2008 cup in a Court of Appeal judgment, it was specifically

:56:10.:56:13.

pointed out that the definition of dangerously out of control dog in

:56:14.:56:17.

section ten of the dangerous dog is not exclusive, and made clear that

:56:18.:56:21.

the ordinary meaning of the words in section three of the act should be

:56:22.:56:26.

applied to any given circumstances and specifically in one case,

:56:27.:56:34.

regarding a particular case, the court said they were inclined to go

:56:35.:56:38.

further and in the event, the definitions of section ten were not

:56:39.:56:43.

exclusive and does not read as a matter of construction that for the

:56:44.:56:46.

purposes of the act dog shall only be regarded as dangerously out of

:56:47.:56:52.

control, and then proceeds to the definition. Therefore, we feel

:56:53.:56:54.

entitled to go back to the straightforward words used of

:56:55.:56:59.

section three. Our lawyers believe that this does indeed mean that

:57:00.:57:02.

there are instances of where the dangerous to it could be used for

:57:03.:57:09.

attacks of dogs on dogs but I appreciate that there is a widely

:57:10.:57:13.

held view that it cannot be and this is something at our officials can

:57:14.:57:15.

consider as part of their wider review of the evidence we have from

:57:16.:57:23.

the survey I mentioned earlier. In conclusion, I would like to

:57:24.:57:25.

congratulate my right honourable friend for this very timely debate.

:57:26.:57:30.

I'm sure the contribution that she and others have made will be taken

:57:31.:57:35.

on board by my officials and considered as they reflect on the

:57:36.:57:39.

survey that they are looking at now. Although, as I've explained, I do

:57:40.:57:44.

that the law already allows police and local authorities to take action

:57:45.:57:49.

in incidences involving dangerously out of control or just nuisance

:57:50.:57:54.

dogs, I completely agree that there are some issues around consistency

:57:55.:57:57.

of enforcement and that is why we have this review going on, this

:57:58.:58:03.

survey going on, and I look forward to seeing the results of that and I

:58:04.:58:06.

have no doubt that my right honourable friend will follow that

:58:07.:58:07.

closely. Order, order, Derek Thomas to move

:58:08.:58:29.

the motion. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I beg

:58:30.:58:34.

to move that this House considers employment opportunities in food and

:58:35.:58:37.

farming. The agriculture sector is essential to the social, cultural

:58:38.:58:42.

and economic landscape of this nation. Food production and farming

:58:43.:58:46.

provides a valuable and abuse and in helping to feed the nation but also

:58:47.:58:50.

provides employment, preserve and maintain our countryside and also

:58:51.:58:57.

contributes to tourism. Agriculture provides a bedrock for the UK food

:58:58.:59:00.

and drink sector, the largest manufacturing sector in the UK, 3.9

:59:01.:59:05.

million jobs and opportunities across the country. There are

:59:06.:59:11.

476,000 people employed in agricultural things across the UK

:59:12.:59:14.

including full-time, part-time and seasonal workers. Four West

:59:15.:59:19.

Cornwall, the contribution of agriculture sector is hugely

:59:20.:59:23.

important. 1.4 billion of the Southwest economic output was

:59:24.:59:27.

accounted for by the agricultural sector. This includes 8800

:59:28.:59:34.

agricultural businesses and 27,300 employees. Working in farming or

:59:35.:59:40.

fishing can be an exciting career choice offering a huge career

:59:41.:59:51.

choice. It is constantly innovating and is an important contributor to

:59:52.:59:54.

the national economy. I will give way. He is very kind but could I say

:59:55.:00:03.

that as the chairman of the manufacturing group of MPs that I

:00:04.:00:13.

agree entirely that it is a major area of manufacturing. His brilliant

:00:14.:00:21.

provision in Cornwall has been responsible for the great skills we

:00:22.:00:24.

had and I wish we had as good all over the country. Thank you, Mr

:00:25.:00:33.

Walker. You are right about the sheer scale of the manufacturing and

:00:34.:00:43.

the good work that FE does in Cornwall. But agriculture is spread

:00:44.:00:50.

across the country rather than being concentrated in one area. I am most

:00:51.:00:56.

grateful. Does he agree with me that British farmers will be able to

:00:57.:00:59.

promote themselves and their products far more effectively when

:01:00.:01:05.

we leave the EU and gain control of food labelling? You may be aware I

:01:06.:01:16.

made a debate here about that subject, about food security, and we

:01:17.:01:24.

can do that through clear labelling. Consumers can know what they're

:01:25.:01:29.

buying, that we looking after animal welfare and the environment. Leaving

:01:30.:01:34.

the EU allows us to provide direction and clarity about those

:01:35.:01:39.

things. It is a global industry that uses cutting-edge technology,

:01:40.:01:42.

constantly innovating and is important contributor to the

:01:43.:01:46.

national economy. The food sector generates 1.8 billion in the Valley

:01:47.:01:54.

of UK plc. Jobs in the sector can be engineered, scientists, farm

:01:55.:01:58.

managers and vets. It is clear that the industry, like any industry,

:01:59.:02:02.

will need a ready supply of new entrants and new ideas, energy and

:02:03.:02:08.

enthusiasm. As the industry becomes increasingly technologically driven

:02:09.:02:11.

and more reliant on its ability to understand and implement the latest

:02:12.:02:15.

science, businesses across the sector will need to have the right

:02:16.:02:19.

mix of skills amongst their employees. I congratulate him for

:02:20.:02:28.

securing this important debate. As the chairman of the all-party group

:02:29.:02:31.

for youth employment, we look at unemployment stats every month and

:02:32.:02:35.

there are over half a million young people unemployed. Does he agree

:02:36.:02:39.

this is a great opportunity within the sector to tap into some of that

:02:40.:02:43.

talent to help up skill then and give them a place in the working

:02:44.:02:48.

world? I am sure the Minister will want to comment but I am sure there

:02:49.:02:52.

are jobs to be filled in the sector, certainly in my part of the world

:02:53.:02:56.

and I know that the challenge around offering these jobs to these young

:02:57.:03:01.

people is that they are properly prepared for the work and from

:03:02.:03:06.

school they can understand what is required and have skills needed. I

:03:07.:03:11.

know employers will provide opportunities and training. I will

:03:12.:03:16.

later come to looking at apprenticeships and opportunities.

:03:17.:03:25.

Thank you for giving me a chance to intervene. I want to say that you

:03:26.:03:31.

talked about jobs. We have 70,000 jobs in the agriculture sector in

:03:32.:03:37.

Northern Ireland. 50,000 farmers and workers, 22 thousand 500 involved in

:03:38.:03:43.

food and drink processing. It's worth 20% of Northern Ireland's

:03:44.:03:49.

cross product. Does the honourable gentleman fuel that whether we leave

:03:50.:03:55.

the EU, when Brexit comes forward, that agri- food sector can grow any

:03:56.:04:06.

more? I will come opportunities to invest and grow and encourage the

:04:07.:04:11.

food and farming production. I also recognise there is a growing

:04:12.:04:16.

population here and across the world, so the UK has an opportunity

:04:17.:04:20.

to rise to that challenge and make sure people wherever they live have

:04:21.:04:23.

the opportunity to have the food they need to survive. I think there

:04:24.:04:29.

is a real opportunity and moral responsibility to invest and empower

:04:30.:04:34.

food and farming to deliver the needs that are growing. So far we

:04:35.:04:40.

have concentrated on agriculture and it is natural to do that but it is

:04:41.:04:45.

important we do not forget the contribution of the fishing industry

:04:46.:04:49.

both economically and socially. In 2015, fishing contributed ?604

:04:50.:04:55.

million to the UK GDP and just over 12,000 fishermen were employed or

:04:56.:05:01.

fishing expertise. Need to be careful here. Half of which were

:05:02.:05:05.

based in England alone. You just have to visit new when in my

:05:06.:05:10.

constituency where there are 40 acres of harbour, to see all kinds

:05:11.:05:18.

of boats to realise how essential fishing is to the region. It is fair

:05:19.:05:22.

to say that in fishing and farming, like other parts of the food chain,

:05:23.:05:26.

face a number of challenges when attracting the right number of

:05:27.:05:33.

quality -- right number and quality of new entrants. Some challenges

:05:34.:05:36.

relate to the perception of these jobs being low skilled, low paid

:05:37.:05:41.

with lack of career opportunities and being hard physical labour in

:05:42.:05:44.

all weathers. At school I was frowned upon for opting for

:05:45.:05:49.

evocation of career, construction sector for me, rather than going to

:05:50.:05:53.

university. Times have changed and we must recognise a job in the

:05:54.:05:58.

countryside is worthwhile and has many benefits other careers to not

:05:59.:06:05.

offer. He makes are really strong case for fishing and farming, an

:06:06.:06:13.

essential part of the economy in Yorkshire. Will he address as we

:06:14.:06:18.

come towards the election the deep uncertainty amongst the farming and

:06:19.:06:21.

fishing community about what will replace the present system of farm

:06:22.:06:30.

subsidies and fishing rights? We have to tell 4pm. What I will say is

:06:31.:06:36.

I am not gifted with that particular answer but I would say that if we

:06:37.:06:40.

can encourage our farmers and fishermen to continue to care for

:06:41.:06:44.

the environment, provide the food we need and provide the skilled jobs we

:06:45.:06:47.

need then I can't see any reason why the Government wouldn't support that

:06:48.:06:55.

of any colour. And what I think we are very should be proud of and talk

:06:56.:07:03.

more about is the equality and diversity of what we produce,

:07:04.:07:05.

whether it is a small business food producer, a large producer that

:07:06.:07:11.

other people round the world deserve to know about and get their hands

:07:12.:07:14.

on. That is how I would like to approach leaving the EU, Mr Walker.

:07:15.:07:19.

If I can make some progress. Other considerations including the rural

:07:20.:07:26.

location of farming businesses and costs of rural housing. Many young

:07:27.:07:31.

learners consider it is only a career for those with a rural

:07:32.:07:36.

background. Fewer and fewer individuals are interested in

:07:37.:07:38.

pursuing a career in this sector and it is for this reason I wish to hold

:07:39.:07:43.

this debate. We appear to be facing what could be termed as a

:07:44.:07:47.

generational crisis within the farming, fishing and food sector.

:07:48.:07:56.

According to death trap, only -- death -- according to Defra, only

:07:57.:08:13.

13% of farmers... He is making a good point. Whilst there has been

:08:14.:08:17.

tremendous success for the Government and expanding

:08:18.:08:26.

apprenticeship and other sectors I wonder what his thoughts would be

:08:27.:08:29.

about taking a holistic view of looking at the sector generally and

:08:30.:08:36.

looking at getting young people engaged in training courses. I have

:08:37.:08:43.

done some work on that. Last year I brought 36 producers, many of them

:08:44.:08:48.

farmers, into Westminster Hall just to celebrate the wonderful work they

:08:49.:08:55.

do developing their produce, and I was really wishing to expose their

:08:56.:09:01.

produce to the London market. We must celebrate all avenues of the

:09:02.:09:05.

sector so that more people see the opportunity that site is there for

:09:06.:09:07.

them. Additional data from the

:09:08.:09:23.

Department's farm business survey in 2013/14 says the greatest barrier to

:09:24.:09:27.

individuals wanting to join the farmers set to whether

:09:28.:09:33.

non-competitiveness of salaries for 64%, 55% responded to their was a

:09:34.:09:37.

lack of job opportunities and 55 said it was due to not owning a

:09:38.:09:41.

family farm. We must increase our efforts to change the perception of

:09:42.:09:46.

the sector to help attract new entrants and come up with solutions

:09:47.:09:51.

and attract assistance for young people to overcome barriers in the

:09:52.:09:54.

industry. I will be interested to hear what has been done since the

:09:55.:09:57.

release of these figures in an effort to address their concerns.

:09:58.:10:01.

There are examples of initiatives to address this. The industrywide

:10:02.:10:09.

careers initiative that seeks to inform school pupils, careers

:10:10.:10:12.

advisers about the range of careers across the industry. Other industry

:10:13.:10:17.

careers campaigns should be coordinated around this initiative

:10:18.:10:22.

to provide consistent information to help inform and inspire young people

:10:23.:10:25.

about careers in the sector, outlining clear career frameworks

:10:26.:10:31.

that show progression. We need young people and others of all ages in the

:10:32.:10:35.

food and farming and fishing sectors as they bring ambition and

:10:36.:10:39.

creativity. Events over the last decade have demonstrated that the

:10:40.:10:43.

issue of food security should not be overlooked. As a nation we are still

:10:44.:10:49.

dependent on food imports. The nation 's farmers only produce 60%

:10:50.:10:53.

of what the nation could produce. 61%. Whilst productivity has risen

:10:54.:11:03.

at 1.5% per year, we need young and highly skilled farmers to come up

:11:04.:11:08.

with ways to keep this increasing. We need technically savvy

:11:09.:11:11.

entrepreneurs and driven young people to utilise the

:11:12.:11:18.

state-of-the-art technology available and GPS mapping systems to

:11:19.:11:23.

high-tech milk machines to keep British farming at the cutting edge

:11:24.:11:25.

and fill these demands. In addition, due to the current uncertainty in

:11:26.:11:32.

the value of sterling, retailers and consumers are looking closer to home

:11:33.:11:36.

to meet their needs. The creativity of young people would also help

:11:37.:11:39.

farms across the UK achieved their diversity goals shone in a Visit

:11:40.:11:49.

England survey in 2016. 16% were looking at contracting, ...

:11:50.:11:57.

Personally, I meet regularly with fishermen and farmers and their

:11:58.:12:00.

representatives. On Friday last week I met with the NFU and local farmers

:12:01.:12:04.

and discussed the skills gap at length. The NFU is a founding member

:12:05.:12:13.

of a body that helps respond to the skills gap by responding with skills

:12:14.:12:20.

and lifelong learning. It is important as people enter the

:12:21.:12:23.

industry that they are encouraged to undertake professional developer and

:12:24.:12:25.

to help them progress in their careers. Continued emphasis on

:12:26.:12:31.

lifelong learning and development will only help to attract new

:12:32.:12:35.

entrants and retain skills in the industry. The agricultural industry

:12:36.:12:39.

has put significant effort in working towards this goal with the

:12:40.:12:43.

launch of training and professional development schemes across different

:12:44.:12:47.

sectors, for example with very sector has -- the dairy sector... My

:12:48.:12:59.

concern is that not a lot has been done within schools, careers advice

:13:00.:13:04.

and across government departments to promote careers and opportunities

:13:05.:13:08.

within the sector. Having said this, I joined hundreds of children at an

:13:09.:13:18.

open farm Dave at the invitation of the local farmer. It was an

:13:19.:13:20.

opportunity to see first-hand how our food is produced and what

:13:21.:13:24.

careers are available in food and farming.

:13:25.:13:30.

I also took my family to a local farm for the open from Sunday. These

:13:31.:13:36.

are successful initiatives to increase public awareness of farming

:13:37.:13:40.

and food production. These initiatives are helpful to dismiss

:13:41.:13:46.

the image of something similar to the character of Farmer Giles. Those

:13:47.:13:50.

who are not familiar with this gentleman, he is a fat man with a

:13:51.:13:58.

red face Hutus on straw and enjoys a slow and comfortable life. This may

:13:59.:14:04.

well be something that each of us cover in the next weeks and I may

:14:05.:14:09.

find that I will be doing that myself on June nine. In reality,

:14:10.:14:14.

farming is far from this. Farmers are dynamic and hard-working members

:14:15.:14:19.

of society and both during my time in this place and in my pursuit to

:14:20.:14:23.

become a member, I have been privileged to discuss with farmers

:14:24.:14:25.

the opportunities and challenges they have and will continue to face.

:14:26.:14:31.

Today it is important that if we are to address the specific challenge of

:14:32.:14:36.

recruitment, we must move away from the image of Farmer Giles, both to

:14:37.:14:40.

help inspire young and talented individuals to look at the sector

:14:41.:14:43.

and to do justice to those who already work in the area. I echo the

:14:44.:14:47.

previous sentiments are made by my right honourable friend the Member

:14:48.:14:51.

for Northamptonshire when she said that she hopes that in future more

:14:52.:14:55.

young people will be encouraged to engage in countryside matters. We

:14:56.:14:58.

must change young people's attitudes towards agricultural sectors and

:14:59.:15:01.

careers and inspire young people to get involved. I'm asking what the

:15:02.:15:06.

government can do. In an age where population growth, as we referred to

:15:07.:15:11.

earlier, has more mouths to feed both here and overseas increasing,

:15:12.:15:15.

and there seem to be more jobs than people, what can the Government do

:15:16.:15:20.

to address the exodus of talent from rural areas, which we are very much

:15:21.:15:25.

aware of in call and the Isle of silly. I'm supporting farmers who

:15:26.:15:29.

say that schools and career services must work with the industry to

:15:30.:15:33.

further promote farming as an aspirational career choice and make

:15:34.:15:37.

better links with stem subjects on their applications in farming. A

:15:38.:15:43.

greater understanding of the range of opportunities in the sector would

:15:44.:15:47.

help dispel the myth that farming is low paid and low skilled. It is

:15:48.:15:51.

important there are opportunities for the industry to engage with

:15:52.:15:54.

organisations such as the careers and enterprise company and for the

:15:55.:15:58.

national careers service to work with the centre to provide

:15:59.:16:02.

continuous careers advice and informed information about career

:16:03.:16:06.

and work prospects in the agricultural sector. Minister, we

:16:07.:16:13.

need a partnership approach with cross-party support in recognising

:16:14.:16:15.

agriculture as an important and attractive sector to be in. This

:16:16.:16:19.

would be of benefit in further challenging the existing perception.

:16:20.:16:27.

In terms of apprenticeships, it is important to recognise that fit for

:16:28.:16:30.

purpose qualifications still have a crucial role to play in

:16:31.:16:34.

apprenticeships of our industry. Whilst in part understanding the

:16:35.:16:37.

Government's aspiration for the apprenticeship being the actual

:16:38.:16:41.

qualification going forward, both employers and apprentices and their

:16:42.:16:45.

parents and families, as a minimum, need a period of transition of

:16:46.:16:50.

allowing the inclusion of qualifications that fall outside the

:16:51.:16:57.

current criteria set by government, was the new trailblazers provide

:16:58.:17:00.

their credentials. I'm asking government to work with employers

:17:01.:17:04.

even more than they are now in the industry to develop a 16-19 skills

:17:05.:17:09.

plan so the vacation and technical qualifications and courses are

:17:10.:17:18.

relevant to the industry. He did say we had a reasonable amount of time

:17:19.:17:22.

to intervene. I don't want to criticise his very good speed but it

:17:23.:17:26.

is a bit male dominated. Is one of the real challenge is how many women

:17:27.:17:29.

are coming in to be farmers, how many women are coming into the

:17:30.:17:32.

sector, and isn't it about time we did something about that? Unsure

:17:33.:17:36.

that young people include men and women but you are right, I accept

:17:37.:17:42.

that. I was talking about a story written several years ago. What

:17:43.:17:48.

encourages me, having said all I said, is that when I'm out and about

:17:49.:17:51.

on the farms and visiting the various businesses working in food

:17:52.:17:56.

and farming, there are a number of young people, particularly girls,

:17:57.:18:00.

engaged in that process. I am a member of the science and tech

:18:01.:18:03.

select committee and we are doing a huge amount of work to understand

:18:04.:18:06.

how to encourage more girls and young women into Stem subjects

:18:07.:18:09.

because there was a real is shortage of them and they provide a

:18:10.:18:12.

particular angle that we must benefit from and can benefit from.

:18:13.:18:17.

On my next point, which might help to encourage the gentleman, and

:18:18.:18:24.

thank you for your intervention. The Department for Education must

:18:25.:18:26.

encourage schools and careers services to work with the industry.

:18:27.:18:30.

It is vital that the department for industry understand that while the

:18:31.:18:34.

five GCSEs we all want our young people to achieve an important, we

:18:35.:18:38.

need to work equally hard within our schools to help young people realise

:18:39.:18:42.

the opportunities available to them outside the school gates, in their

:18:43.:18:46.

local area. This will have a huge benefit in addressing some of the

:18:47.:18:50.

challenges we have and also avoid, for some, the pressures, which I

:18:51.:19:04.

know concerns many people. I want better links with Stem subjects and

:19:05.:19:09.

their applications. To conclude, the agricultural industry has been

:19:10.:19:13.

incredibly resilient and courageous through numerous challenges in the

:19:14.:19:17.

past. The problems faced today require the same attitudes to be

:19:18.:19:21.

adopted. We must be able to maintain the vibrancy of the rural economy

:19:22.:19:26.

and to continue to meet our food security needs. Conflicts overseas

:19:27.:19:29.

and increasing population growth mean that British farming must have

:19:30.:19:34.

the capability to produce the lion's share of the food we need in the

:19:35.:19:39.

nation and in feeding this nation, and young people, both girls and

:19:40.:19:43.

boys, of a real opportunity to meet that challenge. The fishing industry

:19:44.:19:49.

needs fresh blood in the sector, ensuring that youngsters are

:19:50.:19:51.

recruited to fulfil the jobs available in the sector, and this is

:19:52.:19:57.

not only crucial to the future of south-west Cornwall but the entire

:19:58.:20:01.

UK fishing fleet. Thank you. The question is that this House has

:20:02.:20:06.

considered employment opportunities in food and farming. Are any

:20:07.:20:09.

colleagues standing before I moved to the front benches? Well, I'm

:20:10.:20:13.

going to move to the front bench, then. Owen Thompson. Thank you, Mr

:20:14.:20:19.

Walker. Always a pleasure to 70 or chairmanship and can I congratulate

:20:20.:20:23.

the Member for St Ives in securing today's debate. Clearly, farming is

:20:24.:20:35.

a significant employer where seven to present of the landmass is

:20:36.:20:39.

considered rural. Rouble is considered more than a 30 minute

:20:40.:20:47.

Drive from the nearest settlement. Almost one in five of the population

:20:48.:20:52.

of Scotland lives in a rural community. Jobs in the rural sector

:20:53.:20:57.

are therefore incredibly vital to the Scottish economy. It is

:20:58.:21:03.

important that despite the uncertain times that we do continue to support

:21:04.:21:06.

the industry to ensure it has a sustainable footing for the future.

:21:07.:21:12.

Currently, Scotland's natural environment is worth more than 20

:21:13.:21:15.

billion per annum and supports more than 60,000 jobs. Between 2010 and

:21:16.:21:21.

2015 the total turnover of Scotland's food and drink industry

:21:22.:21:27.

increased from 10 billion to 14.4 billion with exports. In 2016, it

:21:28.:21:30.

was worth 5.5 billion, an increase of 40% since 2007. Scottish food and

:21:31.:21:35.

drink really is going through something of a renaissance at the

:21:36.:21:39.

moment and we can see that and we know that the quality is there

:21:40.:21:43.

within that industry and is something I will come back to later

:21:44.:21:48.

on my comments. But there are also challenges. The average age of

:21:49.:21:53.

Scottish farmers is now around 58, with only 9% of farm occupiers 40 or

:21:54.:21:59.

under. So, as the honourable member for St Ives was highlighting, it is

:22:00.:22:03.

incredibly important we find ways to bring new young people into these

:22:04.:22:06.

industries to make sure that we do have that sustainability and the

:22:07.:22:15.

resilience to continue the support for industries that are so vital to

:22:16.:22:19.

us. In Scotland, the SNP government are very keen to support young

:22:20.:22:22.

people into the industry to make sure the bright young farmers keep

:22:23.:22:25.

the economy going into the future. In April 20 17th, the Scottish

:22:26.:22:31.

government announced a fund of ?2.5 million to help new entrants into

:22:32.:22:35.

farming. Funding will support the next generation of farmers and

:22:36.:22:39.

increase the opportunities for young people to establish a career in

:22:40.:22:43.

agriculture. This latest award will see a final 47 new farming

:22:44.:22:48.

businesses to help them create and develop the business is. One of the

:22:49.:22:52.

biggest challenges of any business in a rural economy is also the

:22:53.:23:00.

access and uptake of broadband. That is something I know we do continue

:23:01.:23:05.

to return to and, as I say, with 98% of Scotland considered rural, the

:23:06.:23:10.

roll-out of broadband to help businesses as we move into a more

:23:11.:23:15.

technical world is critical to help support the running of local rural

:23:16.:23:23.

farming businesses. But we are in an uncertain world just now. The UK

:23:24.:23:27.

vote to leave the EU has created a significant uncertainty in the

:23:28.:23:31.

agricultural sector. The hard Brexit we so often hear about would be

:23:32.:23:34.

absolutely devastating for stretches of Scottish agriculture, cattle and

:23:35.:23:40.

sheep substantially facing high tariffs and lots of subsidy

:23:41.:23:44.

supported talk we would have the risk of future protection of the

:23:45.:23:49.

Scottish protected food names like Scottish beef or Stornoway black

:23:50.:23:51.

pudding. We don't yet know what is going to happen to protected name

:23:52.:23:59.

status. We have a scheme here in the UK, given that Europeans will no

:24:00.:24:05.

longer be accessible to us. We are supporting the common framework that

:24:06.:24:10.

helped supports food safety and reduce nontariff barriers to trade.

:24:11.:24:14.

Jobs and investment opportunities have been put at risk of entering

:24:15.:24:22.

into multi-annual contracts under various schemes and some of

:24:23.:24:26.

Scotland's remote rural communities have fragile populations where EU

:24:27.:24:32.

migration helps to ensure the resilience of these communities and

:24:33.:24:35.

without the ability to have that movement, there is a real risk but

:24:36.:24:40.

not just on the food and farming industries but entire communities

:24:41.:24:46.

across Scotland. The Government's gamble with membership of the EU has

:24:47.:24:51.

created significant uncertainty. We are now facing a loss to much-needed

:24:52.:24:57.

seasonal workers. Agriculture directly employs 65,000 people and

:24:58.:25:01.

underpins a ?14 billion food and drink industry, one of the

:25:02.:25:03.

fastest-growing and most successful sectors of Scotland. Along with

:25:04.:25:09.

other rural businesses, agriculture relies heavily on seasonal workers,

:25:10.:25:15.

yet despite repeated questioning we've not yet had a clear answer for

:25:16.:25:21.

the government for the rights we are protected for the seasonal workers,

:25:22.:25:25.

an estimated five to 15,000 working in the sector annually. Berry

:25:26.:25:31.

picking alone requires a significant number of seasonal workers and more

:25:32.:25:34.

than a third of UK soft fruit comes from Scotland. The industry is

:25:35.:25:43.

clearly facing challenges, VCA CHP payment issues are there, no point

:25:44.:25:48.

trying to pretend otherwise, but that is the euro secretary's number

:25:49.:25:58.

one priority and these things are that the vast majority of farmers

:25:59.:26:00.

and crofters will have received their 2016 baser payments. We

:26:01.:26:07.

understand the NSF US President's frustration regarding the system for

:26:08.:26:12.

payments and that is something that the Cabinet secretary has been

:26:13.:26:18.

keeping him and the NFC West advise all is -- advisers apprised of. The

:26:19.:26:29.

industry with so many opportunities for Scotland growing so quickly, to

:26:30.:26:34.

suddenly come up against the challengers and potential risks that

:26:35.:26:40.

Brexit face to the industry really has put a big question mark. What

:26:41.:26:51.

can we secured to ensure that the food and drink industry is protected

:26:52.:26:54.

Thomas to continue to grow and contribute to the economy? Thank

:26:55.:27:02.

you, Mr Walker and it is an honour to serve under your chairmanship to

:27:03.:27:07.

date. I would like to congratulate the honourable member for St Ives

:27:08.:27:11.

for securing this debate. I think he's demonstrated that he does have

:27:12.:27:15.

a passion for the issue and I would like to particularly highlight,

:27:16.:27:21.

although I'm not the shadow spokesperson for fishing and

:27:22.:27:23.

fisheries, I think it is really important that he has brought that

:27:24.:27:29.

into the debate today and the future of that industry in particular. The

:27:30.:27:34.

debate is particularly important because across the sector, there are

:27:35.:27:40.

serious skill shortages that must be addressed if the industry is to be

:27:41.:27:45.

maintained. Mr Walker, I would like to start by highlighting the

:27:46.:27:49.

situation in the UK food and drink manufacturing industry, which has up

:27:50.:27:55.

to 400,000 direct employees in roles that range from sales and marketing,

:27:56.:28:00.

supply chain and Logistics to production management and

:28:01.:28:04.

engineering, and this is an industry which has enormous potential as a

:28:05.:28:09.

high-value manufacturing sector, using innovative technologies and

:28:10.:28:14.

engineering, digital and life sciences, to meet all the challenges

:28:15.:28:19.

of managing future food supplies and contributing to the wider carbon

:28:20.:28:21.

reduction agenda. This potential is being put at risk.

:28:22.:28:29.

The food and drink Federation have highlighted that by 2024 over a

:28:30.:28:35.

third of the workforce in the sector will retire and 130,000 new recruits

:28:36.:28:39.

will be needed to fill this skills gap. A recent survey by the food and

:28:40.:28:50.

drink Federation revealed that a top five skills gaps were engineers,

:28:51.:28:53.

food scientists and technologists, innovation, including product and

:28:54.:29:00.

process development, leadership and management, and customer service

:29:01.:29:04.

management. Although the ageing workforce and skills gap is not new,

:29:05.:29:08.

there needs to close it has become more urgent. As, like the rest of

:29:09.:29:15.

the agri- food supply chain, food and drink manufacturers currently

:29:16.:29:20.

benefit from bringing in skilled labour from the EU. This represents

:29:21.:29:25.

29% of its workforce or 120,000 workers. A high number of these

:29:26.:29:31.

workers carry out vital production, technical and specialist roles and

:29:32.:29:39.

host Brexit the industry expects there will be future restrictions on

:29:40.:29:43.

accessing non-UK EU workers which will only intensify the skills gap.

:29:44.:29:50.

To address the problem, the industry wants to see coordinated careers

:29:51.:29:56.

action and a more strategic approach to engagement with schools to

:29:57.:29:59.

encourage home-grown talent for the long-term. The Federation is also

:30:00.:30:05.

asking for a technical education reforms including the institutes of

:30:06.:30:13.

technology as proposed levels fall short for the food and drink

:30:14.:30:17.

industry. The Federation hopes to fill its own pledge to increase the

:30:18.:30:22.

apprenticeship workforce in food and drink manufacturing up to 3% from

:30:23.:30:30.

the 1% it currently is, by 2020, and to tackle market failures such as

:30:31.:30:32.

the fragmented apprenticeship provision for the sector and the

:30:33.:30:39.

lack of new standard at level four and above and I hope sincerely that

:30:40.:30:43.

the Minister will get a commitment to address these issues with his

:30:44.:30:47.

appropriate colleagues in the relevant departments as a matter of

:30:48.:30:53.

priority. Mr Walker, 11% of workers in the sector work in agriculture

:30:54.:30:57.

with a high dependence on workers from outside the UK. Up to 80,000

:30:58.:31:05.

workers come to the UK every year to pick fruit and vegetables, with 98%

:31:06.:31:11.

of these workers coming from the EU. In my own region, farmers in the

:31:12.:31:15.

north-east have told me that they not only rely on workers from abroad

:31:16.:31:21.

from our seasonal jobs but to work on their farms throughout the whole

:31:22.:31:24.

year. While it is important that young people are encouraged to take

:31:25.:31:31.

up agricultural careers, that uncertainty in the sectors about

:31:32.:31:36.

their workforce post Brexit needs urgent assurance from the

:31:37.:31:40.

Government. Farmers have to have the certainty of a good stream of

:31:41.:31:44.

seasonal workers. If the Government will not give in to pressure to

:31:45.:31:48.

reintroduce the seasonal agricultural workers seem then will

:31:49.:31:55.

the ministers say what measures are being put in place to encourage

:31:56.:31:59.

local people to fill these jobs? Will he say that the Government will

:32:00.:32:07.

support schemes such as the ones helping young people in particular

:32:08.:32:10.

access jobs in rural areas when there is no public transport? Can

:32:11.:32:15.

the Minister say how much resource the Government has invested in

:32:16.:32:22.

plugging the gap left in the light of the removal of the scheme at

:32:23.:32:33.

present? I hope the Minister can fully address all issues raised by

:32:34.:32:41.

colleagues in this debate. You will have two minutes once the Minister

:32:42.:32:47.

sits down. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I would

:32:48.:32:51.

like to begin by congratulating my honourable friend, the member from

:32:52.:32:55.

St Ives, for securing this debate which gives us an opportunity to

:32:56.:32:59.

recognise the importance of the food, farming and fisheries sector,

:33:00.:33:04.

which employs around one in seven of all workers in this country. I

:33:05.:33:08.

should start by declaring an interest in that I, as some of my

:33:09.:33:13.

colleagues will know, studied agriculture, I attended an

:33:14.:33:19.

agricultural college in the early 90s and studied for a higher

:33:20.:33:22.

National diploma in commercial horticulture and I did a number of

:33:23.:33:27.

other courses through the local college which was mentioned in the

:33:28.:33:33.

debate earlier, Cornwall College in my constituency, which had some very

:33:34.:33:39.

good work in this area, and I have another college in my area links to

:33:40.:33:44.

Cornwall College, again one of the country's leading agricultural

:33:45.:33:49.

colleges. This is an issue I am passionate about because it is one I

:33:50.:33:54.

choose to study myself, and I think, as I said earlier, the food, farming

:33:55.:33:58.

and fisheries sector provides a huge variety of career opportunities

:33:59.:34:02.

including many requiring stem skills. Food manufacturing is the

:34:03.:34:11.

biggest sector in this country for manufacturing, employing around

:34:12.:34:14.

400,000 people and providing one sixth of the total manufacturing GDA

:34:15.:34:22.

in this country. In the 2016 productivity report, the food and

:34:23.:34:27.

drink Federation estimated 130,000 jobs would have to be filled between

:34:28.:34:34.

2014 and 2024. With food engineers and scientists in demand

:34:35.:34:38.

particularly. Clearly there are great opportunities in the food

:34:39.:34:41.

manufacturing sector reported a's talented young people to build their

:34:42.:34:47.

future careers. Agricultural technologies are transforming

:34:48.:34:51.

farming, creating new types of jobs needing new types of skills.

:34:52.:34:56.

Successful modern farming requires technical proficiency, business

:34:57.:34:59.

acumen and entrepreneur skills. I recently met a group of Tesco Young

:35:00.:35:05.

farmers who were investing in developing their business,

:35:06.:35:08.

leadership and management skills, and their understanding of the wider

:35:09.:35:11.

supply chain issues whilst balancing busy jobs on poultry, dairy, arable

:35:12.:35:17.

and sheep farms. The food and farming sector is also important to

:35:18.:35:23.

our industry that has a presence across the country and it is

:35:24.:35:27.

interesting we have had contributions from the far

:35:28.:35:30.

south-west and also from the other end of the country, from Midlothian,

:35:31.:35:37.

and Yorkshire, talking about the importance of this sector to their

:35:38.:35:43.

own area. I know it is a significant employer in Cornwall. I have a

:35:44.:35:47.

number of important food manufacturing businesses, clotted

:35:48.:35:50.

cream and fisheries, in my constituency. Farming alone employs

:35:51.:35:56.

around 64,000 people in the south-west and food from Cornwall

:35:57.:36:04.

lists more than 330 businesses producing quality food and drink,

:36:05.:36:10.

famous for the clotted cream, Cornish pasties but also Cornish

:36:11.:36:16.

sardines or pilchards and oysters. Sardines and oysters leads me to

:36:17.:36:20.

another sector which is important in parts of Cornwall, including in my

:36:21.:36:24.

honourable friend's constituency, the home to new linen. The UK

:36:25.:36:32.

seafood industry offers a wide variety of careers including

:36:33.:36:35.

fishing, agriculture, processing, retail and food service. There can

:36:36.:36:41.

be no doubt that across the whole of food, farming and fisheries sectors,

:36:42.:36:45.

there are fantastic opportunities for young people to build exciting,

:36:46.:36:50.

challenging and successful careers. I want to talk a little bit about

:36:51.:36:57.

the industrial strategy and post-16 skills plan. To secure the skilled

:36:58.:37:01.

workforce that the food, farming and fisheries sector needs for the

:37:02.:37:05.

future, government and industry as work in partnership to prioritise

:37:06.:37:10.

training and skills. It is crucial that there are clear entry routes

:37:11.:37:13.

into the sector to help young people embark on their careers and that

:37:14.:37:17.

employers invest in recruiting, training and developing their staff.

:37:18.:37:21.

This government has introduced a number of policies on skills. The

:37:22.:37:26.

industrial strategy Green paper published in January this year

:37:27.:37:29.

includes skills as one of its core pillars and has a particular focus

:37:30.:37:37.

on stem. The post-16 skills plan published in July 2016 aims to

:37:38.:37:40.

reform technical education by introducing 15 routes or key levels,

:37:41.:37:48.

including agricultural, environmental and animal care,

:37:49.:37:51.

engineering and manufacturing, including food manufacturing, and

:37:52.:37:56.

catering and hospitality. These will provide technical education to equip

:37:57.:38:00.

students for skilled occupations, creating clear routes into the

:38:01.:38:05.

sector. Reforms to apprenticeships will also create fresh opportunities

:38:06.:38:09.

for people to develop new skills and progress their careers. The

:38:10.:38:13.

apprenticeships levy which came into force this month provides a new

:38:14.:38:19.

incentive for employers to invest in training. Many employers in that

:38:20.:38:22.

sector are rising to the challenge and the number of apprenticeship

:38:23.:38:27.

starts in agriculture, horticulture and food manufacturer increased in

:38:28.:38:34.

2015 /16 converts to the previous year. The Department for Education

:38:35.:38:40.

is also exploring options to allow up to 10% of apprenticeship funds to

:38:41.:38:45.

be transferred down the supply chain from 2018, bringing the benefits of

:38:46.:38:49.

apprenticeships to even more businesses and in Defra we are keen

:38:50.:38:56.

to promote this because it means small farm enterprises within a

:38:57.:38:59.

supply chain may find it easier to benefit from the apprenticeship

:39:00.:39:02.

levy. Apprenticeships provide great opportunities both to train new

:39:03.:39:10.

entrants and to upscale and develop existing members of staff and I am

:39:11.:39:15.

delighted that it exciting new apprenticeship standards have been

:39:16.:39:22.

approved for delivery and many more are under development. Sharing their

:39:23.:39:32.

pension levy downline is very welcome. 1.I would make, in Suffolk

:39:33.:39:38.

a lot of businesses are small or medium-sized businesses. What will

:39:39.:39:42.

you do to make sure in the discussions he has maintaining the

:39:43.:39:48.

quality it is not dominated by large sector,? It is important and we have

:39:49.:40:00.

people from the sector involved in the development of these new

:40:01.:40:02.

apprenticeships. The idea that I had for this came when I visited a

:40:03.:40:09.

McCain 's factory manufacturing chips from potatoes where it was

:40:10.:40:15.

clear they add a well-managed apprenticeship programme but in

:40:16.:40:19.

their supply chain they had 300 potato farms and those farmers in

:40:20.:40:24.

many cases will not have an HR director to take care and look after

:40:25.:40:30.

apprenticeship programmes professionally so it seemed there

:40:31.:40:34.

was an opportunity to be able to use organisation and skill sets that

:40:35.:40:39.

people like McCain 's have two foster apprenticeships on farms in

:40:40.:40:43.

places like Norfolk and Suffolk and elsewhere where the potatoes are

:40:44.:40:48.

grown. I have been privileged to meet a number of apprentices as the

:40:49.:40:51.

minister responsible for agriculture, fisheries and food

:40:52.:40:57.

during my time. And I know what great careers can begin from a...

:40:58.:41:03.

Apprenticeships. I recently spoke alongside a former apprentice at an

:41:04.:41:07.

event for unemployed young people interested in careers in food and

:41:08.:41:13.

farming. This young man had decided to do a mechanical engineering

:41:14.:41:15.

apprenticeship instead of following a conventional university degree and

:41:16.:41:20.

after four years of training was earning more than ?40,000 per year.

:41:21.:41:24.

Apprenticeships are a brilliant alternative to university because

:41:25.:41:28.

they allow apprentices to an while they learn and new apprenticeship

:41:29.:41:32.

standards are being developed at degree level and apprenticeships

:41:33.:41:37.

provide fantastic learning opportunities by allowing

:41:38.:41:39.

apprentices to develop their new skills on the job. Employers also

:41:40.:41:46.

benefit from having apprentices. It is calculating the average person

:41:47.:41:48.

who completes their apprenticeship increases as this productivity by

:41:49.:41:54.

around ?214 per week to increased profits and productivity and better

:41:55.:41:59.

quality products. Small employers provide fantastic opportunities for

:42:00.:42:03.

people to get on the career ladder. 96% of the food manufacturing sector

:42:04.:42:09.

are SMEs and they can benefit from apprentices. They only have to pay

:42:10.:42:16.

10% of the cost of training their apprentices and the Government will

:42:17.:42:25.

pay the remaining 90%. He is making an excellent case for the steps the

:42:26.:42:31.

Government are taking to promote apprenticeships in the agricultural

:42:32.:42:37.

sector. I wondered, given the fact that many people decide upon where

:42:38.:42:40.

their careers and lives are going to take them at a very early age, 1314,

:42:41.:42:47.

what steps has he thought can be done to encourage younger people to

:42:48.:42:50.

think about careers in agriculture and the whole supply chain, from

:42:51.:42:53.

that age, and what work is he doing with schools? He has raised an

:42:54.:42:58.

important point. I was going to return to this point

:42:59.:43:08.

because I believe it is an important one that I intend to return to. The

:43:09.:43:14.

Institute for apprenticeships began work on new apprentices this month

:43:15.:43:18.

and will, in time, oversee the development of both T levels and

:43:19.:43:25.

apprenticeships, helping to drive up standards and ensure quality. I'm

:43:26.:43:28.

delighted that two members of the board, Dame Vera McKendrick of

:43:29.:43:34.

Nestle, and a representative Walter Smith fine foods, bring expert

:43:35.:43:39.

knowledge of the food sector. It is important to recognise that we have

:43:40.:43:42.

to have continuous career progression once people are in the

:43:43.:43:53.

industry at the agricultural and horticultural... There are

:43:54.:43:58.

demonstration farms so that there can be a sharing of expertise

:43:59.:44:03.

through their meetings, digital tools and knowledge exchange

:44:04.:44:08.

publications. And of course international benchmarking to learn

:44:09.:44:11.

from the experiences of other countries. I finally wish to say a

:44:12.:44:16.

word about the colleges who last year came together to launch a new

:44:17.:44:22.

national college in agriculture, and this was to thread together some of

:44:23.:44:28.

the activities that all of the colleges are engaged within order to

:44:29.:44:32.

secure a progression of more people towards level three qualifications,

:44:33.:44:37.

again with the aim of having continuous professional career

:44:38.:44:41.

development. I will turn to the issue of the image of the industry

:44:42.:44:45.

and the work being done to try to encourage more young people to

:44:46.:44:52.

participate that the Member for Saint Isaac raised. Clearly there

:44:53.:44:55.

are opportunities in the food, fishing and agriculture sector, so

:44:56.:44:58.

we should be encouraging more people to explore this sector when they

:44:59.:45:02.

think about their future. Overall, we currently have the highest

:45:03.:45:07.

comparison rates since records began at 74% and youth unemployed but has

:45:08.:45:14.

been falling and it remains important that young people are able

:45:15.:45:19.

to take place in the labour market and understand the options

:45:20.:45:23.

available. Careers in food and farming are too frequently seen as

:45:24.:45:27.

low-paid, low skilled and lacking in progression opportunities and we

:45:28.:45:32.

need to challenge some of the outdated myths that are out there

:45:33.:45:37.

and challenge the great careers this sector offers. Engineers, scientists

:45:38.:45:41.

and technicians are at the cutting edge of innovation in aggregate tax

:45:42.:45:45.

and food production. Industry supported organisations, such as one

:45:46.:45:50.

that my honourable friend the member force and I was mentioned, but also

:45:51.:45:54.

the IGD and the national skills academy for food and drink are

:45:55.:45:58.

working to tackle these misconceptions and to increase

:45:59.:46:01.

awareness of careers in the sector through initiatives such as Tasty

:46:02.:46:09.

Careers and Leading Briton Boult Future, which is run by the IGD,

:46:10.:46:15.

through to The World Is Your Oyster, and all of these different schemes

:46:16.:46:21.

highlight the varied pass the seafood industry has to offer.

:46:22.:46:27.

Within government we are highlighting some of the superb

:46:28.:46:29.

apprentices that are already working in this industry through a

:46:30.:46:39.

government campaign. The Secretary of State in Defra hosted a round

:46:40.:46:44.

table, bringing together a range of organisations that start a dialogue

:46:45.:46:48.

about what industry and government could do together to champion

:46:49.:46:54.

opportunities available in the farming sector. The round table

:46:55.:46:58.

heard directly from apprentices working from poor into a leading

:46:59.:47:03.

food businesses, Nestle and mandalas, about their experiences in

:47:04.:47:07.

the sector and the best will -- people to sell the sector are young

:47:08.:47:11.

people themselves starting out on their own careers in the industry

:47:12.:47:17.

and, indeed... I will give way. The Minister is setting out some fine

:47:18.:47:25.

examples of what's happening but can I press him on the industry's need

:47:26.:47:29.

for seasonal workers? We do want to get young people into long-term jobs

:47:30.:47:33.

that he is talking about and that is really important but there will be

:47:34.:47:42.

continually a need for seasonal workers but how can that helped to

:47:43.:47:45.

perpetuate our agricultural industry into the future? I will return to

:47:46.:47:51.

the honourable lady's point because she made her remarks as well and

:47:52.:47:55.

given that we have some time in this debate, I will address that after

:47:56.:47:57.

but since this is predominantly about careers in agriculture, I do

:47:58.:48:01.

want to focus on how we can encourage more young people into

:48:02.:48:07.

those careers. And above honourable members have mentioned the issue of

:48:08.:48:11.

women in farming and there is an organisation called Women In

:48:12.:48:15.

Farming. I've spoken at one of their events couple of years ago and the

:48:16.:48:20.

former Secretary of State also addressed their event. I can also

:48:21.:48:24.

report to honourable members that the Tesco young farmers' group that

:48:25.:48:29.

I mentioned earlier in my contribution, of the ten farmers

:48:30.:48:34.

that came as part of that group, four were winning. So I do believe

:48:35.:48:38.

that we are making progress and it is essential that we don't overlook

:48:39.:48:42.

the great contribution that women make to some of these careers,

:48:43.:48:46.

particularly when we have areas such as science where we have women

:48:47.:48:51.

increasingly doing so well. This is a challenge that many countries in

:48:52.:48:56.

the world face. Indeed, when I attended the G7 in Japan last year,

:48:57.:49:00.

one of the big focus as they had was how they could encourage more women

:49:01.:49:05.

into farming. I have to say, some of their ideas probably wouldn't cut

:49:06.:49:10.

it. I remember them demonstrating a tractor that had pink patterns on

:49:11.:49:14.

the side of the bonnet in the idea that that might have helped. I'm not

:49:15.:49:21.

sure that would work here. The honourable member for St Ives

:49:22.:49:24.

mentioned the importance of encouraging children of school age

:49:25.:49:30.

into farming. The plan in place at the moment does actively encourage

:49:31.:49:35.

all schools to give children of primary school age and experience on

:49:36.:49:39.

a farm so that they can see how food is produced. A number of the county

:49:40.:49:44.

show associations also run very good projects. The Royal Cornwall show

:49:45.:49:50.

association runs an event every year and invites schools from across the

:49:51.:49:54.

country to come and learn about farming and farming careers. The

:49:55.:49:59.

devil can to show has, as usual, copied Cornwall and is doing a

:50:00.:50:02.

similar project but that's great. We need as many as possible to be

:50:03.:50:06.

promoting farming as a career to schools. The honourable member for

:50:07.:50:15.

Midlothian talked about the importance of farming and fishing

:50:16.:50:18.

north of the border in Scotland and it is an incredibly important

:50:19.:50:23.

industry. I regularly visit Scotland, particularly with the

:50:24.:50:27.

fishing industry, and I remember last year during a visit to the

:50:28.:50:31.

Shetland Islands where they have one of the key academies that trains

:50:32.:50:35.

skippers in fishing vessels and captaining fishing vessels. He

:50:36.:50:40.

mentioned the average age of farmers and this has been a long-standing

:50:41.:50:46.

problem that many countries in the world face. Often the statistics

:50:47.:50:48.

mask the reality and it is often the case that the farmer is unwilling to

:50:49.:50:54.

let go of the purse strings but the manager of the holding is the next

:50:55.:50:59.

generation down but we are keen to encourage more new entrance and

:51:00.:51:01.

there have been a number of projects, including some in Wales

:51:02.:51:06.

and southern Scotland and indeed in Cornwall there is something called

:51:07.:51:10.

the fresh start initiative where they did some work to see how they

:51:11.:51:16.

could both help people retire whilst at the same time creating new

:51:17.:51:21.

opportunities for new entrance. He mentioned it is an uncertain world

:51:22.:51:25.

with Brexit and I would simply say this. I believe it is a fantastic

:51:26.:51:31.

opportunity. I am very much of a glass half full view with this. We

:51:32.:51:35.

have a great opportunity to design and agriculture policy that is

:51:36.:51:38.

better suited to us here in all parts of the UK. I can tell him that

:51:39.:51:42.

just last week I met NFUS to talk about some of their thoughts and

:51:43.:51:45.

ideas about how we can do policy differently in the future and the

:51:46.:51:48.

one thing I can assure him is that I'm yet to find a fisherman in

:51:49.:51:53.

Scotland who would like us to rejoin the CFP, having left it, so I can

:51:54.:51:56.

tell him that the fishing industry, almost universally, believes that

:51:57.:52:01.

the decision to leave the EU was the right one and they are relishing the

:52:02.:52:05.

opportunity that this brings to the Scottish fishing fleet. The shadow

:52:06.:52:09.

minister and the honourable member for Midlothian mentioned the issue

:52:10.:52:17.

of Labour. As she will know, the Prime Minister has made clear that

:52:18.:52:20.

she wishes to respect the rights of EU citizens that are here working in

:52:21.:52:24.

the UK now. She made that point very early on, very soon after the

:52:25.:52:30.

decision to leave the EU. She made a perfectly reasonable point, which is

:52:31.:52:34.

obviously that we would expect that to be reciprocated and I don't think

:52:35.:52:36.

that that is controversial, and she's also been made clear that she

:52:37.:52:40.

hopes it is polygamy settled very early negotiations, so I believe we

:52:41.:52:44.

can give reassurance to those who are living working in the UK now.

:52:45.:52:50.

When it comes to seasonal labour, as the honourable lady points out, I

:52:51.:52:53.

would simply say that having a controlled migration policy and

:52:54.:52:58.

ending a presumption of free movement doesn't mean that you pull

:52:59.:53:01.

up the drawbridge and stop while immigration. At sin-bin means what

:53:02.:53:05.

it says, that you have control of it, and it will then be for a future

:53:06.:53:09.

government to decide what sort of work permits it wishes to grant,

:53:10.:53:13.

whether it grants short-term work permits, whether it just grants work

:53:14.:53:17.

permits for the more skilled people, and it can do so based on an

:53:18.:53:21.

assessment of what our needs are and if there is a need for seasonal

:53:22.:53:25.

agricultural labour then, of course, a future government will have at its

:53:26.:53:30.

disposal the ability to grant the types of permits that are needed so

:53:31.:53:33.

I believe all of these issues can be dealt with. In conclusion, I believe

:53:34.:53:39.

it has been a very important debate on a very important subject that is

:53:40.:53:42.

dear to my heart. I believe we've made some very good progress with

:53:43.:53:46.

the work that has been done on apprenticeships and some of the

:53:47.:53:49.

great work that is being done in schools to promote agriculture and

:53:50.:53:53.

food as a career. There is further to go but I believe we have made a

:53:54.:53:58.

very good start. No more than two minutes, please. Thank you to the

:53:59.:54:04.

Minister, who encouraged me when I first arrived in this post to

:54:05.:54:09.

participate in a debate about on that. The Minister has said that the

:54:10.:54:16.

opportunity exists within food and farming, and that jobs are

:54:17.:54:23.

increasing in the hi-tech area. I absolutely agree, there is real

:54:24.:54:26.

potential to create many new well-paid jobs and that is what

:54:27.:54:31.

rural areas in particular need to hear and need to see realised. The

:54:32.:54:35.

Minister referred to the new T levels and they are welcome and are

:54:36.:54:39.

an important step in addressing the skills gap but can I ask the

:54:40.:54:44.

Minister to encourage Defra and other departments, to work with the

:54:45.:54:51.

Department for Education to assess how effective and clear the pathway

:54:52.:54:55.

into food, fishing and farming really is for children, so schools

:54:56.:55:00.

can be encouraged to really focus on much more than just a journey

:55:01.:55:05.

towards a university degree or some similar. Finally, as we introduce

:55:06.:55:12.

various things like making tax digital, and the Minister also

:55:13.:55:16.

contribute to that debate as far as how people already in fishing,

:55:17.:55:17.

farming and food production, particularly small businesses, can

:55:18.:55:24.

embrace that opportunity, in terms of digitising tax etc and making

:55:25.:55:27.

sure we've got the broadband and mobile phone capacities to deliver.

:55:28.:55:31.

I wish to thank all those who took part for the opportunity to

:55:32.:55:37.

participate in this debate. The question is that this House has

:55:38.:55:42.

debated opportunities in food and farming. The ayes have it. Suspended

:55:43.:55:48.

until 4pm. Order, order. I called James Heatley

:55:49.:56:03.

to move the motion. Thank you very much, and it is an honour to serve

:56:04.:56:08.

under your chairmanship, and I am really honoured to have secured the

:56:09.:56:10.

debate today on the penultimate day of this Parliament to raise Wells's

:56:11.:56:18.

bid to become the UK City of Culture in 2021. As a proud constituency MP,

:56:19.:56:22.

I've been supporting the bid from its genesis, which wasn't very long

:56:23.:56:27.

ago, and I will continue to support the bid because I think it has an

:56:28.:56:33.

enormous potential to change the stars of both Wales and the wider

:56:34.:56:38.

Somerset area. -- Wells. I think it is important to place on record that

:56:39.:56:44.

in the absence of a large civic construct to put together this bid,

:56:45.:56:47.

it has really fallen into the hands of volunteers from in and around

:56:48.:56:53.

Wells to do so and particular mention must go to Andy Webb, who

:56:54.:56:56.

has volunteered to do this, and it is quite phenomenal the amount he

:56:57.:57:00.

has achieved in such a short space of time. Before I talk about Wells's

:57:01.:57:04.

bid specifically, I also wanted to say a few words in my capacity as

:57:05.:57:10.

the chairman of the All Party Parliamentary Group on Iran cinders

:57:11.:57:13.

three, not least because I see that Nicky Wire is hoping to return to

:57:14.:57:17.

Parliament and it may well be that they restore him to the chairmanship

:57:18.:57:26.

when he gets here. I have learned an enormous amount about the ingenuity

:57:27.:57:31.

of the UK events industry and its role in driving our visitor economy

:57:32.:57:36.

and our role in showcasing British business by the calibre and

:57:37.:57:40.

expertise of the events that we put on around the world. And so, out,

:57:41.:57:47.

have I seen the value of events on offer locally, regionally and

:57:48.:57:50.

nationally, such as the City of Culture, which is a series of events

:57:51.:57:54.

over the course of a year or so but in Londonderry it was worth ?100

:57:55.:57:57.

million to the local economy and in Hull, it has already been worth ?60

:57:58.:58:04.

million to local economy so you can see why Wells and wider Somerset is

:58:05.:58:08.

so keen on winning that status. It would be transformative. I give way

:58:09.:58:11.

to the honourable member for Weston-Super-Mare.

:58:12.:58:17.

This is an important issue for his consistency and those of us around.

:58:18.:58:22.

You mention the bid has been put together by a small dedicated band

:58:23.:58:29.

of volunteers. I'm sure he has already been speaking to Visit

:58:30.:58:36.

Somerset, Somerset tourism, and I suspect they will have engaged

:58:37.:58:39.

strongly in creating this if only because the knock-on effect on my

:58:40.:58:46.

home and their accommodation industry could be profound. I agree.

:58:47.:58:54.

It is a huge opportunity not just for Wales but for Weston-Super-Mare

:58:55.:58:58.

as well. Visit Somerset along with a number of other local bodies have

:58:59.:59:02.

been involved in supporting those volunteers in putting together the

:59:03.:59:08.

bid. I think what we need to discuss today is the difference in Wales's

:59:09.:59:12.

bids so the minister might satisfy himself that the bid process lends

:59:13.:59:17.

itself is keenly to rural areas as it does to urban because Wales's bid

:59:18.:59:25.

is not about the post-industrial regeneration that was the

:59:26.:59:29.

centrepiece for a Londonderry and Hull. It is a different opportunity

:59:30.:59:33.

in Somerset and I will talk more later about that. Our bid draws on a

:59:34.:59:39.

rich cultural heritage way out of proportion to the size of our city.

:59:40.:59:44.

We are England's smallest city but our cathedral has a centuries long

:59:45.:59:48.

tradition in music and so does the now ruined Glastonbury Abbey which

:59:49.:59:51.

still hosts wonderful musical events. We have the Glastonbury

:59:52.:59:59.

Festival down the road and there is Arthurian legend all over Avalon and

:00:00.:00:02.

Glastonbury itself which will be a wonderful team to draw on throughout

:00:03.:00:07.

the city of culture year. There are are internationally significant art

:00:08.:00:12.

galleries, and Opera Festival, comedy festivals and literature

:00:13.:00:18.

festivals, food festivals, film festivals, we have a brand-new

:00:19.:00:23.

world-class concert hall and we are the location for many movies and TV

:00:24.:00:28.

programmes and so much more. All of that goes alongside a rural

:00:29.:00:35.

agricultural life and an incredible natural history whilst also

:00:36.:00:41.

embracing the digital arts industry as we tap into the success of those

:00:42.:00:46.

sectors in Bristol and Bath. The cultural offer is more developed and

:00:47.:00:59.

diverse in Wales, smallest -- Wells. The bid and -- the bid

:01:00.:01:06.

understandably requires more. I wonder if the Minister think it is

:01:07.:01:10.

fair given we are trying to build a country that works for everyone and

:01:11.:01:14.

we must recognise that includes developing the economies of rural

:01:15.:01:17.

areas as well as urban. I hope the minister in a few days he has left

:01:18.:01:23.

accepting his civil servants are almost locked down on the purdah,

:01:24.:01:30.

Willie satisfy himself that when small local authority areas are

:01:31.:01:34.

bidding for these things then perhaps the process must be weighted

:01:35.:01:37.

to understand they're not able to underwrite heads in the same way as

:01:38.:01:42.

large at Bolton areas might be able to -- larger metropolitan areas. The

:01:43.:01:46.

advantage of volunteers coming together as they have in the Wells

:01:47.:01:52.

is that private sector engagement, very encouraging, Heritage Lottery

:01:53.:01:58.

funding has been involved, and I hope the Minister Willock carefully

:01:59.:02:01.

at the process to make sure that if we are really aiming to create a

:02:02.:02:07.

country that works for everyone, all regions competing equitably, we make

:02:08.:02:11.

sure the bid process doesn't disadvantage to the more rural areas

:02:12.:02:14.

and those where local authorities are not able to resource the beds

:02:15.:02:22.

more fully. I applaud him for bringing this debate to this

:02:23.:02:28.

chamber. I believe the idea behind these cities of culture is to

:02:29.:02:34.

improve economic prosperity, and whilst Wells is a glorious location

:02:35.:02:38.

with its cathedral, the location for the film Hot Fuzz. Is it not also

:02:39.:02:49.

sitting importantly in its rural environment, an area which is quite

:02:50.:02:54.

poor, and the knock-on effect from attracting city of cultural status

:02:55.:03:03.

could reverberate through the rest of Somerset? It could improve the

:03:04.:03:07.

productivity needs to address. We need to do more. She is exactly

:03:08.:03:18.

right. It is so easy to assume if you were flying over our

:03:19.:03:21.

constituencies and you would cease many trees, fields, you would think

:03:22.:03:26.

that all is well down below. There is a hidden deprivation in rural

:03:27.:03:30.

areas that is just as significant a challenge as the challenge you would

:03:31.:03:35.

find in a city area. The challenge is arguably much more because rather

:03:36.:03:40.

than at all being concentrated in one area and therefore name of your

:03:41.:03:44.

intervention is more defined, in rural areas too often those families

:03:45.:03:49.

living in deprivation are on their own, the only family in the hamlet

:03:50.:03:55.

to live in that circumstance, or the families are scattered across a town

:03:56.:03:59.

or village and they require the ability to intervene in a light

:04:00.:04:10.

switches such more challenging. There is an opportunity to uplift

:04:11.:04:13.

the entire area with city of culture status. You find people living in

:04:14.:04:20.

deprivation in isolation and bring them into this and do something

:04:21.:04:24.

which could be potentially transformative to their lives. There

:04:25.:04:29.

are a number of obvious benefits to the city of culture status that the

:04:30.:04:32.

Minister will be well aware of and will be in common with all other bid

:04:33.:04:37.

cities. Clearly the most obvious place to start is the visitor

:04:38.:04:41.

economy and Somerset's visitor economy is already drawing, drawing

:04:42.:04:51.

from 1.2 to 1.3 billion in the past years. Visit Somerset have been

:04:52.:04:53.

looking at different ways of marketing the county and have seen

:04:54.:04:58.

huge success. So how the various tourism expos that have come here.

:04:59.:05:03.

The Minister will want to pass back congratulations to Visit Britain who

:05:04.:05:08.

have brought international delegations and tour operators to

:05:09.:05:14.

Somerset. I hosted a group of Spanish, Italian, Portuguese and

:05:15.:05:18.

Mexican tour operators and it was great to see them brought to the

:05:19.:05:22.

area by Visit Britain to see what we had to offer. The reality is that

:05:23.:05:29.

Somerset is too often the drive-through county on the way to

:05:30.:05:32.

the south-west and there is more on offer. That is music to your ears, I

:05:33.:05:37.

know, but I am sure you will not begrudge us if we hold them up a

:05:38.:05:43.

little longer at our end of the peninsula. There is more that could

:05:44.:05:47.

be done to the visitor economy in our part of the south-west and it

:05:48.:05:51.

would be great to see the city of culture acting as a catalyst for

:05:52.:05:57.

growth. It would be fantastic to see city of culture status acting as a

:05:58.:05:59.

catalyst for infrastructure improvement. The railway line south

:06:00.:06:06.

of Bristol are not planned for electrification and the line from

:06:07.:06:14.

Reading through Taunton to the south-west is not being electrified

:06:15.:06:18.

as quickly as we might have hoped. Wraps city of culture status or

:06:19.:06:25.

something similar might be a reason to accelerate improvement. It might

:06:26.:06:30.

be a great book for a number of airlines who have looked at bringing

:06:31.:06:37.

in daily services from Bristol Airport to New York, Doha, and other

:06:38.:06:43.

places, perhaps this could be the final encouragement they need to

:06:44.:06:47.

commit to that service, not just good for Bristol and the greater

:06:48.:06:50.

area but fantastic for the whole south-west peninsula. City of

:06:51.:06:54.

culture status could be a catalyst for that. There may well be the

:06:55.:06:59.

opportunity to use the catalyst for road improvements. My honourable

:07:00.:07:04.

friends for Bath and North East Somerset have been doing great work

:07:05.:07:14.

on improving the route from the M4. I have been doing work on

:07:15.:07:25.

improvements on other roads. What a great thing if city of culture

:07:26.:07:28.

status would be a catalyst for road improvements. The Minister has been

:07:29.:07:36.

doing great work on broadband and mobile coverage. Given perhaps there

:07:37.:07:42.

might be some sort of growth on the digital arts industry emerging

:07:43.:07:44.

within the Somerset area, perhaps the city of culture might also

:07:45.:07:53.

catalyse the Digital economy and see us accelerate. I feel I am speaking

:07:54.:08:03.

up for the rest of Somerset. The south-west has historically been

:08:04.:08:07.

allowed the productivity of the rest of the country, about 7% converted

:08:08.:08:15.

to 8%. Would he see this as a great opportunity to address that? The

:08:16.:08:19.

knock-on effect would be enormous. If we could get a city of culture in

:08:20.:08:23.

the south-west, which would be unusual. The money is going north.

:08:24.:08:29.

It could do so much good work if we brought it to the south-west and it

:08:30.:08:33.

really would have a big impact on productivity. She is an excellent

:08:34.:08:40.

friends to have entered a's pursuit of the Minister. She is entirely

:08:41.:08:45.

right. Productivity is a potential gain from this. One of the other

:08:46.:08:51.

things I think that the city of culture status might help us to

:08:52.:08:54.

achieve is we are blessed in Somerset with really outstanding

:08:55.:08:59.

schools and colleges but too often we are training people up and giving

:09:00.:09:04.

them an education for which they think they have no option but to

:09:05.:09:08.

move away to pursue their careers and I wonder if the city of culture

:09:09.:09:14.

status, in that it might attract investment and create a buzz about

:09:15.:09:20.

living in Somerset, and it might come about in my Honourable friend's

:09:21.:09:29.

constituency, some excellent work in the arts and delivering skills and

:09:30.:09:38.

marketing, I wonder if city of culture status might have the effect

:09:39.:09:42.

of helping to rebalance in some small way Somerset's demographic as

:09:43.:09:46.

well by keeping young people in the county. If we have managed to

:09:47.:09:51.

improve infrastructure and create a younger workforce with the right

:09:52.:09:55.

skills needed by the industries that are there and are emerging then we

:09:56.:09:59.

achieved a significant productivity boost as my Honourable friend

:10:00.:10:02.

suggested and that would be a fantastic legacy to see in Somerset

:10:03.:10:07.

not only because it would change Somerset's stars in terms of how the

:10:08.:10:12.

population is skilled and availability of the workforce but

:10:13.:10:15.

the availability of that newly skilled workforce would bring with

:10:16.:10:20.

it inward investment and new companies, hugely exciting. Perhaps

:10:21.:10:25.

we could see the city of culture status as part of the legacy of

:10:26.:10:31.

Hinkley point which is already doing something to rebalance our region's

:10:32.:10:36.

economy. What if, having brought all the expertise and know-how to the

:10:37.:10:40.

country, we have follow-up industries coming behind and city of

:10:41.:10:44.

culture status helping to reinforce what a wonderful quality of life one

:10:45.:10:52.

could have living in Somerset. The timing seems to be right and I hope

:10:53.:10:59.

the Minister will agree, not just for the city of Wells but from the

:11:00.:11:06.

south-west as a whole. He has given such a catalogue that it is making

:11:07.:11:11.

Somerset Sound like such an attractive place, which it is, but

:11:12.:11:14.

also we have the Somerset Levels very close, I'm massive wildlife

:11:15.:11:22.

offer which we can build on. In my constituency we have the County Down

:11:23.:11:26.

of Taunton that it could build its links with Wells. We are trying to

:11:27.:11:32.

build our cultural offer. We have the Somerset County ground. We could

:11:33.:11:38.

build a whole offer in Somerset but we could focus it with spin offs

:11:39.:11:44.

from Wells. She is contributing powerfully on the heart of our

:11:45.:11:50.

country and her constituency. England's smallest city cannot do

:11:51.:11:56.

this alone. It is an offer that incumbents is -- offer that

:11:57.:12:03.

encompasses many places nearby but also further afield in Taunton,

:12:04.:12:10.

Bath, Bristol. The Minister will say so what? Everyone says it will bring

:12:11.:12:15.

more tourism, bring productivity and investment, and he is not wrong. But

:12:16.:12:19.

that is where I think the bid from a small city in a rural setting

:12:20.:12:23.

becomes interesting because I would argue that the challenge of

:12:24.:12:27.

yesteryear was the regeneration of post-industrial cities. I think the

:12:28.:12:33.

new challenge for the next decade is how we build more resilient

:12:34.:12:38.

communities to deal with loneliness, ageing population, the challenges of

:12:39.:12:42.

mental health, particularly dementia among the ageing population. In

:12:43.:12:46.

Somerset we have those problems quite acutely already. We are in the

:12:47.:12:51.

vanguard of the nation when it comes to the ageing population. I think if

:12:52.:12:58.

we were to start to see the city of culture as an opportunity for the

:12:59.:13:02.

arts to be something that brings communities together, enhances the

:13:03.:13:07.

culture of volunteering that exists in our communities but could become

:13:08.:13:11.

so much war and therefore to build networks of people looking out for

:13:12.:13:15.

one another and it is the arts, the city of culture status that has

:13:16.:13:18.

brought them together in the first place, I think that is hugely

:13:19.:13:19.

exciting. Then Minister will, I hope, reflect

:13:20.:13:29.

that there is an economic challenge in the Southwest. Although there are

:13:30.:13:35.

a lot of Brownfield sites you might have seen in other cities, he might

:13:36.:13:40.

reflect the Southwest as a region has lagged behind in investment for

:13:41.:13:46.

some time and that something like this, a flagship project of

:13:47.:13:49.

international significance really driving the local economy, would be

:13:50.:13:54.

really exciting and would tick the boxes. But I hope he will also see

:13:55.:13:59.

that, if the government is one of the challenges the next decade will

:14:00.:14:04.

be challenging loneliness and helping the elderly to live in their

:14:05.:14:09.

own homes, so they don't need social care, so they don't need to be in

:14:10.:14:14.

hospital, we are starting to see their City of Culture status as a

:14:15.:14:18.

catalyst for developing resilience, to develop networks of volunteers

:14:19.:14:22.

and embrace the horsepower in communities and voluntary groups,

:14:23.:14:28.

and using that as a celebration of our community to create a legacy of

:14:29.:14:33.

support and looking out for one another in a resilient committee. I

:14:34.:14:38.

think that is hugely exciting. You have indulged me and my colleagues

:14:39.:14:42.

from Somerset for long enough, but it has been a huge honour to stand

:14:43.:14:47.

here and pitch to you at the Minister the value of the bid for

:14:48.:14:52.

Wells to become the City of Culture. I hope he will go away for of

:14:53.:14:55.

enthusiasm for what we have to offer and that we might be successful in

:14:56.:14:58.

reaching the short list in due course. Ministers to respond. It is

:14:59.:15:11.

a great pleasure to serve underage chairmanship, in what I expect to be

:15:12.:15:16.

the final Westminster Hall debate that I will respond to this

:15:17.:15:25.

Parliament. I congratulate the Member for Wells on securing this

:15:26.:15:30.

debate and also powerfully arguing for Wells to become the UK City of

:15:31.:15:35.

Culture in 2021. You can see why the people of Wells elected term,

:15:36.:15:41.

because he has a deep passion for his city. He makes the case and

:15:42.:15:48.

touched on some of the things he has been able to do in the two years he

:15:49.:15:54.

has been the MBA, to improve the city and life for its residents. And

:15:55.:16:02.

I wish him well in his bid to gain their trust to do that in the next

:16:03.:16:08.

parliament as well. You can see from today why such a passionate advocate

:16:09.:16:12.

is needed for the city of Wells and the surrounding areas. He makes the

:16:13.:16:19.

case more broadly, including the value of becoming the City of

:16:20.:16:22.

Culture to Somerset and the Southwest more widely. Under that UK

:16:23.:16:27.

City of Culture programme, places and compete to hold the title once

:16:28.:16:32.

every four years, and the prize is that title. There is no formal

:16:33.:16:38.

funding support, although there is a huge amount of support in drawing

:16:39.:16:45.

funding from all sorts of places, Private and public. And the

:16:46.:16:51.

programme uses this creativity and culture to transform a place,

:16:52.:16:54.

attracting visitors and bringing communities together. The

:16:55.:17:02.

competition was launched in January, it places have registered their

:17:03.:17:05.

intention to bed. Sunderland, Paisley, birth, Hereford, Warrington

:17:06.:17:12.

Saint Davids, Portsmouth and tempt one among others. The bids need to

:17:13.:17:17.

be received by the end of this week, so this is a timely debate and then

:17:18.:17:23.

they will be assessed by the advisory panel while Parliament is

:17:24.:17:29.

dissolved. Then a short list will be announced after the election, and

:17:30.:17:32.

the winning city announced by the end of this year. I thought it was

:17:33.:17:41.

really striking how he described the way he largely voluntary bid is

:17:42.:17:46.

coming together, drawing people from the community, from the private

:17:47.:17:53.

sector, of course, within the Council area, but led by volunteers.

:17:54.:18:02.

I pay tribute to those who have worked on the bed so far. And as the

:18:03.:18:08.

smallest city, there is an iconic selling point there as well. When it

:18:09.:18:16.

comes to looking at Wells, we have Harwich today about the cultural

:18:17.:18:24.

assets that already exist in Wells. The City of Culture is all about

:18:25.:18:29.

boosting those assets, that already exist, as well as adding new ones.

:18:30.:18:38.

In Wells in particular, this draws from an ancient tradition, the long

:18:39.:18:41.

and illustrious history, the cathedral, which has been in place

:18:42.:18:51.

since 909. The Bishop of Bath in Wells has been in the seat since

:18:52.:18:58.

1245. The current bishop, Peter Hancock, no relation, but a great

:18:59.:19:05.

man. There is a great heritage, 341 different listings, four of which

:19:06.:19:13.

are the Bishop's palace alone. He mentioned Glastonbury Festival and

:19:14.:19:19.

cheddar, the home of cheese. So, the variety, as well as the depth of the

:19:20.:19:30.

history, is a real attribute. The area has enjoyed significant

:19:31.:19:35.

investment from the Arts Council, who have invested 700,000, and the

:19:36.:19:40.

Heritage lottery fund, who have invested 3.5 million over the same

:19:41.:19:47.

period. Glastonbury Festival Theatre and the Circus of Glastonbury

:19:48.:19:50.

Festival benefited from grants this year. Last year, the Palace Trust

:19:51.:19:57.

were awarded money to help children engage with the Bishop's palace. So

:19:58.:20:02.

there has been public investment as well as private investment. Touching

:20:03.:20:08.

on a couple of things he said directly. I think that the backing

:20:09.:20:20.

of the steering team's mission by Visit Somerset and the support of

:20:21.:20:26.

local councils, institutions, businesses, carnivals working

:20:27.:20:30.

together is important. That is a very strong sense of pride in the

:20:31.:20:35.

area. There is, and I know some of the officials have already visited,

:20:36.:20:41.

as Wells has been a candidate city for a couple of months now. That

:20:42.:20:47.

coming together is an important part of delivering the project. But the

:20:48.:20:53.

thing that struck me most was what he said about looking at the City of

:20:54.:20:56.

Culture competition in a different way, not just to sport and physical

:20:57.:21:04.

and economic regeneration, but also to support and strengthen the

:21:05.:21:09.

resilience of communities, and the value of communities in a small city

:21:10.:21:16.

and rural setting. I thought that he put that very well, because he is

:21:17.:21:21.

right that Wells would be different as a choice from previous winners,

:21:22.:21:28.

where the focus has been on economic regeneration and social rejuvenation

:21:29.:21:38.

of an area that has had a difficult time over recent generations.

:21:39.:21:45.

Whereas Wells is about building on its success, but building stronger

:21:46.:21:48.

and more resilient communities. I thought he put that over very well,

:21:49.:21:52.

and I have noted that and we'll make sure that as noted by the judging

:21:53.:22:02.

panel. The value of the UK City of Culture competition, I think the

:22:03.:22:05.

evidence is that the value comes to all bidders. Just bidding brings

:22:06.:22:13.

value, it brings people together, it brings national attention as this

:22:14.:22:19.

debate is doing. And preparing the bid can generate new ideas for new

:22:20.:22:23.

partnerships. Bidding areas often think about the plans and develop

:22:24.:22:29.

them over time. Hull was only successful at the second attempt,

:22:30.:22:33.

but has been hugely successful this year. Indeed, the Both Carried said

:22:34.:22:38.

that hole was one of the top ten cities in the world to visit this

:22:39.:22:46.

year, and it has had a 60 million boost to its local economy, and more

:22:47.:22:52.

than 1 billion of investment. That is the benefit of winning, but it is

:22:53.:22:59.

the taking part accounts as well, because people pulling together with

:23:00.:23:04.

the goal of winning has its value. I also want to acknowledge the support

:23:05.:23:13.

that he has from the member for Taunton Deane, who has put together

:23:14.:23:19.

the wider benefits for Somerset, and also the member for

:23:20.:23:23.

Weston-Super-Mare, who made powerful supportive comments. That the value

:23:24.:23:30.

that is expected to the wider community, not just Wells, but the

:23:31.:23:33.

bid is really about Wells in Somerset. Picking up his points, we

:23:34.:23:51.

are finding that this urban/ rural divide is getting larger, and if

:23:52.:23:54.

Libby could do something to link the two together better, perhaps through

:23:55.:23:58.

the arts, I think there would be a really positive move. The member for

:23:59.:24:06.

Taunton Deane is a powerful advocate for her constituency and makes the

:24:07.:24:13.

case incredibly well for the importance of closing the urban/

:24:14.:24:18.

rural divide and making sure that people in Taunton and across the

:24:19.:24:22.

country gain the benefits of the arts and culture, and the technology

:24:23.:24:29.

is bringing right across rural and urban areas. And I have very much

:24:30.:24:37.

taken that on board. I will end, if I may, by saying that the member for

:24:38.:24:46.

Wells is a brilliant local representative. He is a terrific

:24:47.:24:56.

advocate for Wells, and I will give him all the encouragement in this

:24:57.:25:03.

date, and the bidders. That is only one thing I cannot give him, and

:25:04.:25:08.

that is that which he seeks, which is picked to lead today in his bid,

:25:09.:25:19.

along with many others, to make Wells the UK City of Culture in

:25:20.:25:25.

2021. What I can say is that thanks to his efforts, the bid they are

:25:26.:25:29.

making has been brought to the attention of people right at the

:25:30.:25:34.

most senior levels, so that it will get the very best shot that it can.

:25:35.:25:42.

We now move on to our next debate, and all the protagonists ICO here,

:25:43.:25:48.

so we can move smartly on. I will just wait for members to leave us,

:25:49.:25:56.

and the Minister to take his place. Welcome. It is a great pleasure to

:25:57.:26:02.

call upon David McIntosh to call the motion. It is a pleasure to serve

:26:03.:26:08.

under is your chairmanship today. I beg to move that this house has

:26:09.:26:13.

considered grandparents' rights of access to children. The issue of

:26:14.:26:18.

grandparents being able to access their grandchildren is one that

:26:19.:26:22.

affects a number of families right across the UK. I have received a

:26:23.:26:27.

significant amount of correspondence from my own constituents, who write

:26:28.:26:32.

to me after family breakdowns and drinking circumstances, seeking

:26:33.:26:36.

guidance on how to reach out to their grandchildren or have access.

:26:37.:26:40.

I adored all of my grandparents from both my mum and dad's families and

:26:41.:26:46.

have fond memories of them from when I was growing up. But it is a sad

:26:47.:26:50.

reflection that we have not managed to reflect in legislation is hugely

:26:51.:26:55.

important role grandparents play in our society. My own dad adores his

:26:56.:27:00.

grandchildren and they adore him back, so whenever I'm contacted by

:27:01.:27:04.

constituents, and actually refer to my own family and simply cannot

:27:05.:27:08.

imagine how hard this must be for everyone involved not to have

:27:09.:27:13.

contact. This is never a straightforward issue to resolve.

:27:14.:27:17.

The distance between grandparents and grandchildren can come about

:27:18.:27:23.

through a number of ways, marital breakdown, bereavement and other

:27:24.:27:29.

difficulties. It can be an incredibly distressing time for all

:27:30.:27:33.

of those involved. I know this issue has been discussed previously in the

:27:34.:27:36.

house, through the introduction of private members bills, debates, and

:27:37.:27:42.

the conversations I have had with colleagues from across the house. I

:27:43.:27:50.

wish to congratulate him for raising this important issue in the house

:27:51.:27:57.

today. He has received, as I have received, many communications which

:27:58.:28:00.

should be emotional turmoil grandparents feel when they had

:28:01.:28:04.

estranged from their grandchildren. Does he agree with me that it is

:28:05.:28:11.

always an error when he situations, like divorce is, grandparents can be

:28:12.:28:12.

used as weapons in the divorce is? I agree it can be very distressing

:28:13.:28:22.

and it is wrong for children to be used as weapons by anybody in any

:28:23.:28:28.

situation but it is distressing for everyone involved and often the

:28:29.:28:31.

constituents that had come to see me, I only see their side of the

:28:32.:28:35.

versions of events and not the children involved and I can tell

:28:36.:28:38.

from my own family that I would be very distressing to not see their

:28:39.:28:42.

grandparents. But it is an issue that does not go away or have a

:28:43.:28:46.

simple solution, as much as I wish there were one. It is important to

:28:47.:28:50.

remember the rights of grandchildren matter as much as the grandparents.

:28:51.:28:56.

Children should be given the opportunity to visit grandparents if

:28:57.:28:59.

they want to. I would like to use this opportunity to praise charities

:29:00.:29:07.

and organisations to help grandparents who have become

:29:08.:29:12.

estranged from grandchildren often through no fault of their own. One

:29:13.:29:20.

such charity operates in my constituency and helps grandparents

:29:21.:29:26.

try to reconnect with their grandchildren. I have attended

:29:27.:29:33.

monthly meeting and listened to some distressing stories of how

:29:34.:29:37.

grandparents ended up losing contact with their grandchildren, sometimes

:29:38.:29:41.

because arguments have gone too far, sometimes due to families separating

:29:42.:29:44.

and sometimes people never really understand the reasons why. Some in

:29:45.:29:50.

the sector wrote to me to suggest ways in which the situation could be

:29:51.:29:55.

changed with a few minor amendments in the wording of the children's

:29:56.:30:00.

act, adding a reference to the child's extended family as well as

:30:01.:30:05.

the involvement of parents, and it could ensure grandparents have

:30:06.:30:07.

similar rights to their grandchildren as well as parents to

:30:08.:30:11.

help secure the child's welfare and ensure grandparents are not

:30:12.:30:14.

negatively impacted by any change to a child's family situation. I can

:30:15.:30:20.

also see situations where this could lead to conflicting issues. The

:30:21.:30:24.

primary responsibility for bringing up children in most families is with

:30:25.:30:29.

parents and I would not like to see situations where parental

:30:30.:30:31.

responsibility could be confused by giving additional rights to

:30:32.:30:37.

grandparents. Or to be used as a weapon in any disagreement. He will

:30:38.:30:44.

recall that on January 31 of this year my constituent Lorraine Bushell

:30:45.:30:53.

and grandparents support group had a day in Parliament and an issue that

:30:54.:30:58.

they raised was not that grandparents have a specific rights

:30:59.:31:02.

to access their grandchildren but the right of the child, as in

:31:03.:31:05.

France, to have contact with extended family. I do recall the day

:31:06.:31:14.

that was held here in fact I think it was held not to far from here.

:31:15.:31:22.

Lots of members were there to lend their support to the campaign. Also

:31:23.:31:26.

to receive some advice and best practice offered on the day. He will

:31:27.:31:36.

not be surprised, only dismayed, to know that at my last surgery I saw

:31:37.:31:40.

grandparents are suffering like this as well and there please was could

:31:41.:31:46.

this be a change in thinking and culture around this because they

:31:47.:31:49.

were told their only recourse was through the courts and didn't want

:31:50.:31:52.

to put their grandchildren through that or further increase tensions. I

:31:53.:32:01.

am grateful for her intervention and I have had similar constituents who

:32:02.:32:12.

related stories to me. I am also grateful for the previous

:32:13.:32:15.

intervention speaking about the law in France and I think that is

:32:16.:32:20.

something that should be considered. I understand that the law in England

:32:21.:32:26.

and Wales gives family court powers to make decision about children and

:32:27.:32:35.

with whom they can spend time. Grandparents must seek permission of

:32:36.:32:38.

the court but it is likely to be allowed if teams in the child's best

:32:39.:32:43.

interest. It could be reconsidered to give grandparents and automatic

:32:44.:32:47.

presumption to the family court. Losing access can be more difficult

:32:48.:32:51.

without having access to information about the children are knowing their

:32:52.:32:57.

whereabouts. At my surgery a lady came to see me and told me she

:32:58.:33:00.

didn't know where her grandchildren are living or what they looked like

:33:01.:33:03.

anymore and have no access to information about them. She would

:33:04.:33:10.

love to have had contact with them but it was also worrying her not to

:33:11.:33:14.

have any information or knowing if they were safe. I was able to write

:33:15.:33:20.

Northamptonshire and ask that if any Northamptonshire and ask that if any

:33:21.:33:26.

information was passed back. They replied to Save the Children were

:33:27.:33:31.

safe. Sometimes there are obvious safeguarding reasons why information

:33:32.:33:34.

cannot be shared but I do think this could also be looked at again to see

:33:35.:33:39.

how the law protect safeguarding issues while also allowing

:33:40.:33:40.

grandparents to basic information about grandchildren just to feel

:33:41.:33:47.

reassured they are safe and well. I hope that after the election, the

:33:48.:33:51.

issue of grandparents' access to children can be taken forward by

:33:52.:33:55.

working together to major the voice of grandparents is taken into

:33:56.:33:58.

account when working with families. I draw my comments to an end but

:33:59.:34:03.

look forward to hearing contributions from other colleagues

:34:04.:34:15.

and from the Minister. Jim Shannon. Can I congratulate him for doing it

:34:16.:34:28.

so well? It is an issue in the House today of some importance to us who

:34:29.:34:29.

are here. It is an issue that comes up through

:34:30.:34:51.

my advice centre back home and I declare an interest because I am of

:34:52.:34:56.

that age, as a doting grandfather, and I look round the chamber and I

:34:57.:35:01.

am much if everyone would be but I think you missed site are one of

:35:02.:35:04.

those people who have achieved that goal. When I help my eldest son in

:35:05.:35:13.

my arms years ago I thought nothing could top the pride. I was wrong.

:35:14.:35:18.

There was a little girl who made it into this world and a special place

:35:19.:35:25.

in my heart, eight years old and when I again thought there was no

:35:26.:35:30.

more room, little media came along. Just three years old. There is

:35:31.:35:35.

nothing more enjoyable than time with your grandchildren. Also the

:35:36.:35:41.

fact that you can hand them back whenever they get a bit stroppy!

:35:42.:35:46.

That is one of the great advantages of getting to be a grandparent. We

:35:47.:35:53.

are here today to debate this issue because we want to try and give

:35:54.:35:57.

access to grandparents. I am lucky because I have access. I am very

:35:58.:36:04.

fortunate. Also fortunate that most of my family and friends are the

:36:05.:36:14.

same. I am convinced he is a magnificent grandfather in many

:36:15.:36:19.

respects. Almost an archetypal grandparent. It is also a two-way

:36:20.:36:25.

thing because I can remember my grand mother virtually brought me

:36:26.:36:34.

up. The relationship and want to be formed as carried me through my

:36:35.:36:38.

entire life and I can't imagine anything worse than not having

:36:39.:36:44.

access. I would ask if he agrees with the that the right of children

:36:45.:36:49.

to access the grandparents is so important? Totally agree. I don't

:36:50.:36:56.

think there is anyone in this hole that doesn't have the same opinion.

:36:57.:37:03.

There was something special about a grandparent and that relationship.

:37:04.:37:07.

My mother, who is still living, she will soon be 86, she dotes as a

:37:08.:37:20.

great grandparent. There is very early bond between my grandchildren

:37:21.:37:25.

and their great-grandmother as well. There is something very nice, a warm

:37:26.:37:34.

feeling about those things. Unfortunately I know there are many

:37:35.:37:38.

people who long to see their grandchild and are denied this

:37:39.:37:41.

opportunity and this is the reason for the debate. I hope to go on

:37:42.:37:45.

holiday in summer problem for the first time with my wife and

:37:46.:37:51.

grandchildren and the memories will be the stuff of dreams. The

:37:52.:37:58.

photographs will be special. I can spend quality time with no pressure.

:37:59.:38:04.

If you lead your mobile phone at home, your excommunicate. This is

:38:05.:38:16.

not something to for granted but when I see so many grandparents

:38:17.:38:21.

chucked out of their grandchildren's lives, whether it is marital

:38:22.:38:27.

break-ups, the spin off from a relationship that breaks down,

:38:28.:38:31.

whether people move away or whether the children and grandchildren in

:38:32.:38:37.

this case are merely used as a tool against the parents. But the

:38:38.:38:42.

guidance on access for grandparents says that should initially be sort

:38:43.:38:50.

through the parents or guardians. However if this cannot be agreed the

:38:51.:38:55.

grandparent can go to court. That is all very well but the fact is that

:38:56.:39:01.

is not as simple as that. That is not easy to do when parents are

:39:02.:39:05.

estranged. Children are often used as a very painful weapon. As a

:39:06.:39:09.

grandparent I can only imagine being cut off out of my granddaughter's

:39:10.:39:17.

life. I would do everything to visit but if this was something that

:39:18.:39:21.

couldn't be achieved, to have to go to court for access, which is

:39:22.:39:25.

expensive and soul destroying, when we understand grandparents' rates

:39:26.:39:30.

are so restricted. There was a salient point in the final few words

:39:31.:39:34.

about the pain that going to court causes not only to the grandparents

:39:35.:39:40.

but to the parents and the children. The children can't quite understand

:39:41.:39:43.

what is going on and what all the arguments and fights are about but

:39:44.:39:46.

they know there is something wrong. They are the piggy in the middle,

:39:47.:39:56.

being pulled by all sides. All sides perhaps genuinely love their

:39:57.:39:59.

children or grandchildren but that access is denied. I see the Minister

:40:00.:40:07.

in his place, it is good to see him here and we look forward to his

:40:08.:40:11.

response. More must be done to support access rights and if that

:40:12.:40:15.

means the enactment of legislation, which I believe has been suggested,

:40:16.:40:27.

which in -- which enshrines clear rights for grandparents, I think

:40:28.:40:32.

this has to happen. One in for a working families relies on

:40:33.:40:35.

grandparents for child care, which saves the Government money on tax

:40:36.:40:40.

credits and childcare voucher schemes and it also follows that

:40:41.:40:44.

grandparents should receive the benefit of government notice. That

:40:45.:40:48.

is what we are trying to achieve, that their rights are protected. If

:40:49.:40:57.

today's debate moves that process on and enables legislative change to

:40:58.:40:59.

come in the next term of Parliament, I will speak strongly in support of

:41:00.:41:05.

it, if the Minister is able to respond in a suitable way. Things

:41:06.:41:13.

like Nanny tax credits are great but more support is needed for those who

:41:14.:41:18.

are not able to see their grandchildren. I look to the

:41:19.:41:22.

Minister to ensure that the new government after June nine takes

:41:23.:41:27.

this on board and takes steps to clarify the rights of grandparents

:41:28.:41:33.

throughout the UK and on the half of those grandparents who have no

:41:34.:41:37.

access to grandchildren, I think that would be a compassionate step

:41:38.:41:49.

in the right direction. It is a pleasure to serve under your

:41:50.:41:51.

chairmanship. I would like to thank the honourable member for

:41:52.:41:54.

Northampton South and congratulate him for being such an important

:41:55.:42:00.

issue before Parliament. He succeeded in setting up various

:42:01.:42:05.

considerations associated with this sensitive issue. Grandparents can

:42:06.:42:12.

enrich the lives of children and provide support for parents trying

:42:13.:42:15.

to balance work and home life. They can be the one people who get told

:42:16.:42:20.

off by their own parents. I remember my grandparents, my mother's mother

:42:21.:42:29.

telling her off, and often they are the ones to stick up for you and

:42:30.:42:32.

give you little treats and things. I think the importance of grandparents

:42:33.:42:39.

in the life of children cannot be stated often enough. Many have been

:42:40.:42:45.

very lucky to enjoy a close and loving relation with their

:42:46.:42:50.

grandparents. This is one of the best experience you can have. The

:42:51.:42:58.

member who is now gone from his seat said so. Sometimes relationships

:42:59.:43:05.

break down. Frequently the pain accompanies a breakdown of families.

:43:06.:43:08.

At its most extreme, children are taken into care. Where there is a

:43:09.:43:14.

responsible grandparent who can step in, it is surely to be welcomed.

:43:15.:43:21.

A more frequent occurrences where a grandparent becoming detached from

:43:22.:43:29.

the grandchildren when the parents separate. When it happens, off the

:43:30.:43:38.

grandparents have been sent and feel excluded. It is quite right they

:43:39.:43:43.

should have some form of redress to apply for access. The current means

:43:44.:43:46.

of deciding where a child lives and with whom they have contact called

:43:47.:43:54.

Child Arrangement Orders, which was introduced in 2014, to replace the

:43:55.:44:00.

previous order. The Child Arrangement Orders can determine

:44:01.:44:03.

where a child lives, who are child spends time with, and that person is

:44:04.:44:08.

named in the order, as well as details such as who they can make

:44:09.:44:14.

phone calls too, who they can live with, what activities they can do

:44:15.:44:19.

with the specific person. Under the present system, grandparents have to

:44:20.:44:23.

seek leave to court to apply for a Child Arrangement Order And Only If

:44:24.:44:28.

They Have lived with the child for years. Generally this has to be

:44:29.:44:37.

done". This can cause a lot of problems, because firstly, by having

:44:38.:44:40.

the stipulation of minimum three years of staying with the child, can

:44:41.:44:45.

exclude various different arrangements, where the grandparents

:44:46.:44:48.

may not have is spent specifically three years with the child, but they

:44:49.:44:53.

do see the children and provide a lot of support to the children. Over

:44:54.:44:59.

the past number of years, it seems that the number of grandparents

:45:00.:45:03.

applying for right of access seems to have been going down, which is

:45:04.:45:10.

unusual, bearing in mind a lot of grandparents do want access to their

:45:11.:45:14.

grandchildren. I think this is because having to go to the court

:45:15.:45:24.

and go through the process. These things can be costly and

:45:25.:45:25.

time-consuming. Many grandparents time-consuming. Many grandparents

:45:26.:45:33.

are unwell and not able to avail of this process. The previous Labour

:45:34.:45:39.

government produced a Green paper in 2010, where they intended to remove

:45:40.:45:43.

the requirement to seek leave of the court. However, the family Justice

:45:44.:45:51.

review was set on March 2010. Later on, this particular provision, while

:45:52.:45:55.

supported by the Coalition Government, who then ordered a

:45:56.:45:59.

review in November. But they took the view that the need for a

:46:00.:46:04.

grandparents to apply for a leave of the court before making an

:46:05.:46:06.

application form contact should remain. So we think that this may be

:46:07.:46:16.

one very good reason about the reduction in numbers of grandparents

:46:17.:46:23.

applying. Now, obviously everyone wants to roll out vexatious

:46:24.:46:25.

grandparents are people who are doing it for malicious purposes and

:46:26.:46:33.

want to make sure the people are doing with the best most of the

:46:34.:46:38.

heart. But I'm sure the legal system can come up with an acceptable

:46:39.:46:45.

halfway house, maybe perhaps more legal advice or free legal advice on

:46:46.:46:50.

appropriate legal advice for the grandparents, as to what the

:46:51.:46:53.

possible options are, and perhaps trying to make the process simpler

:46:54.:46:56.

and speedier. How to be bring solutions to

:46:57.:47:14.

problems? One way is through the mediation process. Does she feel

:47:15.:47:19.

that might be a way of doing it? I'm looking towards the Minister for

:47:20.:47:24.

that answer as well. I thank him for that intervention. That is one of

:47:25.:47:28.

the helpful ways one can deal with these things, because arbitration or

:47:29.:47:36.

mediation has proved to work in many scenarios. Is couples who are

:47:37.:47:41.

separating, their own divorce settlements, or access to children.

:47:42.:47:47.

But as one possible option that could be explored, which is perhaps

:47:48.:47:50.

not an expensive option and much more straightforward. I am sure

:47:51.:47:57.

legal minds and other in the systems can put their heads together and

:47:58.:48:00.

come up with a system that is much more flexible and responsive to the

:48:01.:48:04.

need of the grandparents being able to see their children, and not

:48:05.:48:13.

having to go, what is seen as currently, enormous legal obstacles

:48:14.:48:17.

and loopholes they have to jump over to try and get access. I know this

:48:18.:48:21.

is an issue which is not really part of political, it is an issue

:48:22.:48:26.

everybody feels and accepts that grandparents have an important role

:48:27.:48:31.

to play. Coming up with a more flexible, lest costly and one that

:48:32.:48:37.

requires grandparents to jump over less loopholes, I'm sure it is

:48:38.:48:41.

something the department can look at and come up with a solution. I think

:48:42.:48:49.

we have had a very constructive debate and a very warm-hearted one.

:48:50.:48:56.

I think we have all founded moving to hear the honourable gentleman

:48:57.:49:04.

talking about the love they feel for their grandchildren and a very

:49:05.:49:07.

special rule that grandparents can play. The honourable lady. The about

:49:08.:49:17.

her grandmother telling her mother offered what fun that was. I must

:49:18.:49:23.

say, I think all of us will recognise that and how important

:49:24.:49:28.

family life and extended family is to all of us. Equally, the

:49:29.:49:32.

honourable gentleman for Stratford made a good point when he talked

:49:33.:49:40.

about mediation. One of the things I thought, I have often thought

:49:41.:49:47.

mediation can lead to the settlement or worse family dispute, or

:49:48.:49:54.

breakdown in relationship, with less confrontation and party for everyone

:49:55.:49:57.

involved, so I think that is a very wise point she was making. And the

:49:58.:50:02.

comments were made about the pain of family breakdown, and the court

:50:03.:50:08.

hearing. I think all of that is very well taken. I'm in the position as a

:50:09.:50:13.

minister today where I cannot make any announcements, because we are in

:50:14.:50:18.

Prada. But I have previously said that we will, assuming the

:50:19.:50:25.

electorate allow it, we will have a green paper weight of the year on

:50:26.:50:30.

family justice. That will provide an opportunity to look at these issues

:50:31.:50:35.

and a number of others touched on by honourable members. But I should

:50:36.:50:38.

congratulate my honourable friend, the member for Northampton South,

:50:39.:50:44.

for securing the debate, on which is a vital and important issue and a

:50:45.:50:49.

complex one. It is a pleasure also to serve under your chairmanship.

:50:50.:51:01.

The sort of experiences we are talking about, heartbreaking

:51:02.:51:04.

stories, as my honourable friend put it.

:51:05.:51:18.

We heard about it from Eastbourne, with my honourable friend who was

:51:19.:51:25.

talking about what she had heard from constituents about this issue.

:51:26.:51:31.

And I agree with her adorable friend from Hendon, who made the point that

:51:32.:51:35.

he has a strong supporter of his constituency. That this is not a

:51:36.:51:41.

lady that should be turned into a new weapon, children being used as a

:51:42.:51:47.

weapon. Most children see their grandparents as important figures in

:51:48.:51:51.

the lives and benefit tremendously from the positive relations they

:51:52.:51:55.

have with them. For many children, the loving relationships they have

:51:56.:52:01.

other grandparents in rich family life. And grandparents often play a

:52:02.:52:06.

key role in raising their grandchildren, particularly with so

:52:07.:52:12.

many parents at work these days. And I recognise that grandparents can be

:52:13.:52:16.

a great source of stability for children, when their parents do

:52:17.:52:22.

decide to separate. They can provide a sense of continuity amid dramatic

:52:23.:52:26.

circumstances, and at a time when children are fragile. Sometimes,

:52:27.:52:31.

when parents themselves are unable to meet the needs of the children,

:52:32.:52:39.

grandparents can take on the full responsibility of their care.

:52:40.:52:43.

Parental separation, in many cases, grandparents will continue to enjoy

:52:44.:52:48.

the relationships they had with the grandchildren, even after parental

:52:49.:52:52.

separation, although the circumstances are obviously

:52:53.:52:55.

different with the parents living apart. But there are some cases

:52:56.:52:58.

where grandparents are prevented from seeing the grandchildren, and

:52:59.:53:03.

there's no good reason for it. The government does recognise the

:53:04.:53:08.

grandparents and grandchildren when grandparents and grandchildren when

:53:09.:53:15.

parents separate. In such difficult circumstances, which are similar to

:53:16.:53:18.

a bereavement, children often feel a greater sense of loss, not just the

:53:19.:53:23.

loss of the parent, but also the loss of the grandparents. I'm sure

:53:24.:53:33.

you will recognise these types of scenarios through the experiences

:53:34.:53:39.

you have described, from talking to constituents. The impact of conflict

:53:40.:53:46.

on children, in - conflict cases, grandparents can end up being viewed

:53:47.:53:51.

by the other parent is being on the other party's side. And this can

:53:52.:53:57.

become a barrier to continued involvement in their grandchildren's

:53:58.:54:02.

lives. Grandparents can also be tempted to see the other parent as

:54:03.:54:06.

the enemy, because they feel their son or daughter has been wronged.

:54:07.:54:13.

And all this is the difficulty, the unpleasantness, the heart and

:54:14.:54:18.

distress of break-up. Be feelings of hurt a fully understandable, but if

:54:19.:54:22.

the children are exposed to this sort of adult conflict, it is

:54:23.:54:27.

damaging for them. This is why the current law doesn't allow for any

:54:28.:54:34.

decisions like that, but gives the court flexibility. When informal

:54:35.:54:40.

attempt by grandparents to secure ongoing involvement in the

:54:41.:54:44.

grandchildren's lives have failed, there is the option to ask the court

:54:45.:54:50.

to intervene. That may not be something they want to do, because,

:54:51.:54:55.

as my honourable friend for Eastbourne said, they may feel there

:54:56.:54:59.

has been enough current and distress in the family without going to court

:55:00.:55:05.

and basing it all again. But there are arrangements through the

:55:06.:55:10.

Children Acts, which help grandparents to re-establish

:55:11.:55:12.

relationships with the grandchildren when things go wrong, but it is a

:55:13.:55:20.

court process. Under the Children Acts 1989, family courts can make an

:55:21.:55:24.

order to determine whom a chalice to live with or spend time with, when

:55:25.:55:29.

and where such arrangements are to take place. It Child Arrangement

:55:30.:55:37.

Order would usually provide for direct contact, such as long or

:55:38.:55:41.

short visits and overnight stays where appropriate. It can also broke

:55:42.:55:45.

vied for the child to have no contact with the person or that may

:55:46.:55:49.

specify that it is to be indirect, through e-mails or telephone cards.

:55:50.:55:55.

That is a lot of flexibility provided by the power of the court

:55:56.:56:07.

to make a Child Arrangement Order. This is in contrast to any perceived

:56:08.:56:12.

rights of any adult family members. Whether the court orders at a

:56:13.:56:17.

grandparent should have involvement in the child's life will depend on a

:56:18.:56:24.

number of factors. Where one or both parents oppose such involvement, the

:56:25.:56:28.

court will apply the factors in the wealthier check list, which is in

:56:29.:56:34.

the first section of the Children Acts 1989.

:56:35.:57:00.

The report can include the feelings of the child, although that is

:57:01.:57:06.

considered more important, the order of the child is. It is open to

:57:07.:57:13.

anyone, grandparents or other relatives, to apply for a Child

:57:14.:57:24.

Arrangement Order. They usually need to obtain permission of the court

:57:25.:57:28.

before proceedings can be started. This can appear as an extra hurdle,

:57:29.:57:33.

but experience suggests grandparents don't usually have any difficulty in

:57:34.:57:36.

obtaining permission, where the application is really about the

:57:37.:57:40.

interests of the child. Permission to apply can be made about the same

:57:41.:57:44.

time as making the application itself, and you just take a box. So

:57:45.:57:50.

that isn't an extra fee or an extra process, there is just one hearing.

:57:51.:57:55.

But believe requirement is not designed as an obstacle, but as

:57:56.:58:04.

vexatious applications. There are exceptions. It is not

:58:05.:58:18.

every case that requires leave. In certain circumstances, grandparents

:58:19.:58:20.

don't have applied for permission. Under section ten. Five of the act,

:58:21.:58:27.

a grandparent may be automatically entitled to apply if the child has

:58:28.:58:31.

lived with them for at least three years. This means, it is not

:58:32.:58:34.

continuous, it means three years within the previous five years. It

:58:35.:58:42.

must have ended. That must be within three months. The grandparent might

:58:43.:58:47.

also be able to apply using the provision if they have the consent

:58:48.:58:53.

of both the parents. So, if either of the persons named in an existing

:58:54.:58:58.

child arrangement order agrees that the film version bereaved apply,

:58:59.:59:12.

then there was no need to apply. I prefer to be fact that grandparents

:59:13.:59:16.

look after grandchildren whether they are in school the parents are

:59:17.:59:20.

working whatever, as the Minister had any chance to give that

:59:21.:59:25.

consideration in the process of Hal and maybe what grandparents do in

:59:26.:59:29.

childminding could be part of the submission that we are trying to

:59:30.:59:34.

find? -- how. If the grandparents are making a constructive, as they

:59:35.:59:40.

would be the method was child keeping of course, with the Durham

:59:41.:59:43.

and would give that to see if we could use that as a method of

:59:44.:59:47.

agreement? Small Charitable Donations and Childcare Payments

:59:48.:59:49.

Bill: it is certainly an interesting thought. -- it is certainly

:59:50.:59:57.

interesting. I can't say what we would do because they are in that

:59:58.:00:00.

funny period. The Orange Democratic period of the election. Very

:00:01.:00:10.

important period, yes. We must not take -- we are in the Democratic

:00:11.:00:16.

period. If the green paper process is to go ahead, as I think it would

:00:17.:00:20.

cover all these issues could be looked at in that context. The

:00:21.:00:24.

history of having minded the child in the way that the honourable

:00:25.:00:27.

gentleman has mentioned is an important factor. I think all of us

:00:28.:00:33.

would agree that disputes over children can be very complex. My

:00:34.:00:39.

honourable friend made in these comments in his opening remarks.

:00:40.:00:42.

Disputes can also affect wider family relationships and the

:00:43.:00:45.

relationship between the children and significant relatives can be

:00:46.:00:51.

vulnerable to a really unpleasant breakdown where there is a lot of

:00:52.:00:56.

distress. Of course, nobody would want to rekindle distress or may get

:00:57.:01:00.

worse for the child. Research has provided insight. A study by the

:01:01.:01:09.

Nuffield foundation gives some insight into how easy it can be from

:01:10.:01:16.

Wilder family members to be embroiled in this. -- wider family

:01:17.:01:23.

members. In 197 case files found by courts in England and Wales in 2011,

:01:24.:01:28.

the primary aim of the study was to understand the detail of different

:01:29.:01:31.

types of childcare arrangements. These were set up during litigation

:01:32.:01:37.

at County Court level. Also to shed some light on how different types of

:01:38.:01:41.

County Court -- County Court order then in existence were used. 20% of

:01:42.:01:45.

the cases examined Robert disputes between parents, but involve known

:01:46.:01:53.

parents, such as grandparents, who cared for children. Three of the

:01:54.:01:57.

cases concerned applications from grandparents to have contact. These

:01:58.:02:05.

shed light on how grandparent can become directly involved in conflict

:02:06.:02:07.

that can negatively influence their grandchildren. The findings also

:02:08.:02:11.

demonstrate the considerable lengths to which the court will go to

:02:12.:02:16.

facilitate a child's involvement with grandparents and the court was

:02:17.:02:21.

a difficult task of wing of the benefits and risks of such contact.

:02:22.:02:28.

I think we can all agree that the principle of grandparents being part

:02:29.:02:31.

of a child's life is a very important one. -- weighing up the

:02:32.:02:38.

benefits. Grandparents in public law cases, just to say something about

:02:39.:02:41.

public law cases because grandparents do play an stomach an

:02:42.:02:46.

important role here. It is the principle of the children act that

:02:47.:02:51.

local authorities should support the upbringing of a child by the

:02:52.:02:55.

families wherever possible, if it is the most appropriate way to

:02:56.:02:59.

safeguard the child's welfare. Local authorities can apply to the court

:03:00.:03:02.

for a care order, well they believe a child has suffered or it might

:03:03.:03:08.

reduce risk of significant harm. The care order allows the local

:03:09.:03:11.

authority to take over the wealth of the child. -- welfare. And having

:03:12.:03:20.

looked after by local authorities bio dot-mac with wider family

:03:21.:03:23.

members first if not possible to return them to the birth family.

:03:24.:03:28.

Thereafter, with a friend and then other person connected with the

:03:29.:03:32.

child. The court can appoint a special guardian for the child is a

:03:33.:03:35.

permanent alternative to long-term care or foster care or adoption.

:03:36.:03:42.

This is often a family member, such as grandparents or friends. In

:03:43.:03:47.

conclusion, the court doesn't recognise the importance of children

:03:48.:03:50.

maintaining relationships with grandparents following parental

:03:51.:03:52.

separation. Family courts are cognisant of that when considering

:03:53.:03:58.

applications relating to child arrangements, however such cases are

:03:59.:04:02.

not such the mac straightforward, given tension and ongoing conflict

:04:03.:04:05.

that can arise when parents separate. For that reason, as I'm

:04:06.:04:10.

sure honourable members will agree, the welfare of the children must

:04:11.:04:13.

continue to be the paramount concern. We have had a good debate

:04:14.:04:19.

this afternoon, so I think good points have been made and, if the

:04:20.:04:22.

green paper process goes ahead, which I hope it will, then that will

:04:23.:04:28.

be an opportunity for us to consider this more fully and for

:04:29.:04:33.

organisations which have particular viewpoints on this to make their

:04:34.:04:41.

contributions. And there are a couple of minutes for a wind up if

:04:42.:04:49.

that is necessary. I thank everyone for taking part in this debate. And

:04:50.:04:52.

in my constituency will be watching this debate you have some experience

:04:53.:04:57.

of this type of separation from their grandchildren will be grateful

:04:58.:05:00.

that has been talked about and debated here in parliament and I

:05:01.:05:03.

look forward to the green paper process hopefully continuing in the

:05:04.:05:11.

autumn. Thank you. As many of the opinion says aye. The ayes have it,

:05:12.:05:16.

the ayes habit.

:05:17.:05:18.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS