05/02/2014 Y Sgwrs

Welcome back. It's only a word but it can provoke very strong feelings.

We'll delve into the arguments surrounding immigration

tonight on Y Sgwrs.

Welcome to the programme. During the next half an hour,

we'll have an opportunity to put the world to rights with our guests.

Later, we'll discuss the future of our chapels

and we'll hear from one familiar face who feels strongly

that we're not doing enough to protect them.

Today, we are in a crisis,

and people should be asking questions of themselves

and the authorities.

Which buildings are worth keeping

and what are we doing to protect those buildings?

More on that later. First, we welcome Vaughan Roderick.

Also joining us tonight are the journalist, John Stevenson,

Reverend Aled Edwards, the Chair of the Wales Migration Partnership,

and from Bangor, Bethan Jones Parry, a journalist

and President of the Dyfodol i'r Iaith organisation. Welcome.

First, we're going to turn our attention

to a burning political issue - immigration.

Specifically, Wales' experiences of welcoming workers

from Eastern Europe, just a month after the coverage of the changes

to European laws, which will make it easier for more people

from Romania and Bulgaria to come to Britain to work.

Vaughan, these changes received a lot of coverage.

This such a difficult issue, politically.

It's a difficult issue because there are two different things.

It is easy to get confused between them.

It's not unreasonable for people to be concerned about the effects

of people moving into their local area and community,

whether that is people moving from Birmingham to Meirionnydd

or people from Eastern Europe moving to a town in England.

At the same time,

there are racist elements which can be linked to this argument.

What politicians always try to do but don't always succeed in doing

is to maintain the balance between a reasonable argument,

listening to reasonable concerns,

while not feeding this monster in terms of prejudice.

John, you follow events in Romania very closely

and all these pages in the tabloids had a lot of attention over there

and it wasn't appreciated.

Not at all. The coverage this issue was getting in newspapers

like The Daily Express and The Mail was staggering.

As Vaughan suggested, it was verging on racism.

The reaction from people I know,

I speak to people at the Romanian Embassy in London regularly

and they couldn't believe it.

It's a fundamental principle

because Romania is part of the European Union.

These people have the right to move.

But it's also important to link the argument about this specific issue

to the wider argument within politics over whether Britain

should be part of the European Union.

Aled, we heard warnings that there would be a flood of people

from Poland coming to Britain a few years ago.

It's not going to happen this time either, is it?

In the case of Romania and Bulgaria,

there was some movement after the A8 came in.

We did see an increase in the number of Polish people living in Wales

but there is no evidence that they have damaged the economy

or the welfare state.

They may have squeezed salaries

but there is little evidence of that as well.

I would say the attention given to Romania and Bulgaria

was politics at its worst.

Anyone who understands the issue would know that the academics have

already moved here because they've been able to do so since 2007.

Beyond that, they're more likely to go to countries like Spain

where there is a Latin tradition.

We also have to remember that we migrate.

There are a million Britons in Spain.

But, Bethan, there are concerns in communities across Britain

and here in Wales.

It might be a taboo to discuss those concerns at times.

I think it's about time we had a mature discussion about immigration.

I agree with John, to some extent.

It makes me angry that the boundaries of this debate

are utilised by some newspapers,

which want to sell and make a profit, by scaremongering.

That is now interfering with our ability to have a debate

which is badly needed.

Let's look at the unique experience of one community in Wales.

Janet Ebenezer has been to rural Carmarthenshire.

Llanybydder, a small town in Carmarthenshire.

When you think of economic migration across Europe,

you wouldn't expect rural Wales to be an attraction.

The situation is a little different here,

mainly because of the work that is available locally.

According to a report by South Wales Police in 2010,

12% of the population are from Poland.

On the outskirts of the town is the Dunbia meat processing factory,

which employs over 600 people

and a large percentage of the workforce are from Eastern Europe.

Many from Slovakia and the Czech Republic, but mainly from Poland.

Basically, if you need to do something to make money,

you need to move out from Poland

because Poland is a hard place for all right now.

It's no so bad.

Sometimes it's very hard.

Money is a very important part of life.

That is why I come here.

I like living in Llanybydder.

I was living in Pencarreg, it's only a couple of miles ago,

so now I am living in Llanybydder

I have not so far to go to work.

The people are nice,

even the Welsh people, they are really nice to us.

The local councillor is adamant that the workers from Eastern Europe

contribute to the local economy.

Particularly in Llanybydder because many shops have closed,

businesses, there's only one bank remaining,

and every one who lives in the village,

I'm sure there must be 200 to 300 in this area,

and they help not just the shops but the Post Office,

the banks and all kinds of things.

The men help on farms and in other businesses, not just at Dubia.

But local people have mixed feelings

because they've seen significant changes in a short space of time.

They keep themselves to themselves.

You used to know everyone in Llanybydder.

These days, you hardly know anyone.

Young people are struggling to buy homes and start families

and the council tax is expensive for families.

When they have five or six people living in a house together,

it works out a lot cheaper.

I know the people from Poland are willing to do that

but here you just want to live with your partner and your children.

It's been pretty good.

They work with us and they work hard.

They don't miss work often. They've had a warm welcome.

The latest statistics for Wales estimate that 25,000 people

from Eastern Europe have made their home here

and 19,000 of those are from Poland.

A recent survey by the National Centre for Social Research

suggests three quarters of British people want to see a cut

in the number of immigrants.

And although he acknowledges that they contribute to local economies,

the councillor also has his concerns.

It is going to affect people's employment in the end,

if too many arrive.

I think we do need to stop at some point.

The picture in Llanybydder.

Bethan Jones Parry, we will talk about jobs in a moment,

but in places like Llanybydder,

are you concerned about the effect on the language?

Naturally, you are concerned, but I'd like to make the point,

I heard an item on S4C a while ago,

and on Radio Cymru,

in which a child of a family from Poland was fluent in Welsh.

My point is, I worked for a man who was an Englishman

of Swedish descent who had migrated to Wales

and he made a significant difference in promoting the Welsh language

within the police.

That is the thing.

Not so much who arrives and why,

but how they contribute to society and live within the community

and how the respect between both cultures can flourish.

There's no doubt that we have to consider the Welsh language in that.

John, we remember the problems Gordon Brown had when he said,

"British jobs for British workers."

Would local people want the jobs being done by these people?

That's the exact point the Labour Minister in Romania

made before Christmas.

We don't know how many people will come from Romania to Britain

but she felt one reason was that they were being drawn here

because they are willing to work in the jobs British people don't want.

To what degree, and this is interesting to me,

there is a prejudice here.

The oldest prejudice in Europe...

the two oldest, I would argue, are against Jews and Gypsies.

We know there are significant minorities

of Roma, as they're now known, in those countries.

Do you think that feeds into this?

I don't want to portray Romania as some sort of paradise

because it's not.

I was in Moldova the year before last, the country next to Romania.

I was there for a conference and there was a rally,

and it was a rally organised by the Orthodox Church

outside the Moldovan Parliament, which was discussing

changing the constitution on the order of the EU,

to stop prejudice against the Roma, homosexuals and women.

Aled Edwards.

In terms of the Welsh language, we have to acknowledge

that the biggest factor which threatens the Welsh language

is people moving from England to Wales. That's the biggest factor.

A very small percentage of our population comes from overseas.

Around 5.5%.

It has an effect in somewhere like Llanybydder.

But in terms of employment,

we have to remember that in an area like this, in education,

the sector is worth £237 million to the economy

and 9,000 jobs rely on it.

We have a challenge for the future.

But we have not yet provided for an influx of Roma.

We have to make provision.

There is a big difference between Romas, the gypsies, and Romanians.

Within Romania itself,

the Roma, the gypsies, are oppressed in Romania.

-May I expand this argument?

-Of course.

I feel we are falling into the trap

of defining the effects of immigration

in the same way as the tabloids.

I am just as concerned about the large companies and shops

which are moving into our towns

and are making every high street almost identical.

That's taking money away from local businesses and communities.

I do feel that a sign of a mature society

is that we can discuss immigration in a wider context,

rather than focusing on people from Romania, Bulgaria this year

and perhaps other countries next year.

Very quickly, going back to the politics,

UKIP are driving this at the moment.

-Will this be a big issue in the European election?

-Without a doubt.

But there's no evidence that this issue effects votes

at a general election, when it comes to electing the UK Government.

Driving across Wales,

you'll see hundreds of chapels of all shapes and sizes.

Some have seen better days.

One of our most prominent broadcasters, Huw Edwards,

has been campaigning to protect them.

And another, Vaughan, has been to one of the chapels of his forefathers

to contemplate the situation.

CHORAL SINGING

This is Groeswen Chapel,

in the hills between Caerphilly and Cwm Taf.

It can offer hope for the future for our most important chapels.

I'm not the first member of my family

to climb the stairs to this pulpit at Groeswen.

My great-grandfather was a minister here for over 50 years.

Here's the founder of the cause, William Edwards.

The same man who built the old bridge in Pontypridd

and designed the layout for Morriston in West Glamorgan.

The building opened in 1742

and this is where many of the Watford Session meetings took place

where the Methodist fathers organised their new church.

But, according to Huw Edwards, the history of nonconformity

is being forgotten and important building are under threat.

People should realise that we have lost hundreds of buildings

since the 1960s.

Unfortunately, buildings were being demolished

without questions being asked.

Even very valuable buildings,

particularly in the South Wales valleys.

This is a crisis

and people should be asking questions of themselves

and the authorities.

Which buildings are worth keeping

and what are we doing to protect those buildings?

It's not just the buildings that are important at Groeswen.

The cemetery is also notable.

"The Westminster Abbey of Wales"

was the way the Daily Telegraph described this place.

It's full of literary figures. Ieuan Gwynedd, Caledfryn and others.

What's amazing is that neither the chapel or the cemetery

were listed until the end of the 1980s.

Until then, there was no official acknowledgement

of the site's historical importance.

As a result of being listed, it has received support.

Around £300,000 from different funds and agencies.

There is support and advice available is the message.

We are trying to protect chapels which have closed.

We have six chapels at the moment which are historically important

and architecturally important.

Chapels like Bethania in Maesteg,

which is the biggest chapel we've got,

and in North Wales we have Peniel, Tremadog,

Llwynrhydowen and The Old Meeting House in Trecynon.

But after rescuing a building, we have to find a use for it.

In one way, this chapel is fortunate because it still has a congregation.

It's more difficult to protect a building

where there are no worshippers.

Isn't it time we realised that these buildings are part of our heritage

and not just the responsibility of the members themselves?

-You enjoyed that, didn't you?

-A cold day in a cemetery?

LAUGHTER

Groeswen is a happy story and a model for chapels in Wales

but not every chapel can claim that sort of support.

The situation has improved.

Huw referred to the situation in the '60s.

The chapels lost at that time,

it is incredible that nothing was done to protect them.

There are grants available and these nonconformist buildings

are now being considered as important as Anglican churches,

which was not true at one time.

But it's difficult if you have a small, elderly congregation,

for them to know there is support available and how to obtain it.

Aled, you're not wearing your collar tonight.

Whose responsibility is it? Just the members or everyone?

To a degree the members, but I think historic buildings belong to us all.

When I was working as a minister,

I remember a time when we were repairing a building

and we paid more in VAT than we received in grants.

But the big thing I would say here is that it is a challenge for us

as churches and chapels to provide services in new communities.

People expect provision in hospitals and places of work.

We often can't do that effectively

because we pay costs on buildings no-one attends.

Are the bricks being given too much attention, Bethan Jones Parry?

-Are...?

-Are the buildings getting too much attention?

Not too much attention, but that may be the heart of the problem.

The reason they don't get much attention,

the ones which deserve it, is because often

there are villages were a chapel has been built

because there was a dispute with another chapel.

But do we really appreciate nonconformity specifically

within the historic curriculum?

When Huw Edwards was campaigning on this before Christmas

he referred to that.

That's true.

I'm reading Kenneth Morgan's book

on politics from 1868 until 1922

and he emphasises the contribution of nonconformity

to the development of politics, journalism and so on.

If we appreciated that, maybe we'd appreciate the bricks more.

That's certainly true.

William Edwards, who I mentioned in the report,

he devised the first national insurance policy

anywhere in the world.

There's a picture of him on the wall of the Hermitage in Leningrad.

No-one in Wales, outside south-east Wales,

knows who he was.

Isn't the other problem that these chapels are empty

almost every Sunday?

If they were full, the money would pile up.

Isn't that the problem?

I would like to declare an interest.

I did studied to join the ministry before becoming a journalist.

I also speak as an historian.

In both those senses, I want to see the contribution of nonconformity

being acknowledged.

But nonconformity today,

it's in a deeper crisis than just the condition of buildings.

J.R. Jones said in the '60s, it's about a lack of meaning.

The reason people don't attend these places

is that they don't know what they stand for -

what their message is.

We've had a statement from the Welsh government.

The Welsh government will contribute over £350,000

to protect historic places of worship this year.

Money is short. We heard about more cuts on Newyddion Naw.

Do we need to see cuts here as well?

It's important we have grants to maintain these buildings

but we need to be more creative with planning laws.

We can use these buildings for community purposes.

There's significant growth, and churches are responsible,

in the principles of Welsh radicalism.

Things like food banks.

We associate ourselves with credit banks.

We work with the poor in a new way.

That's a new step but we need buildings to achieve these things.

-It's not easy.

-May I talk about being creative?

Yes, Bethan.

I agree with Aled.

I live in Pencaenewydd, just down the road from the chapel

in which David Lloyd George got married.

That has now been transformed

and there are circuit training classes there.

It has become the heart of the community but in a different way.

Worshipers have returned.

I think we need to be more flexible to pay for the bricks.

And there are some business minds running Groeswen.

There are some clever people. That's what is interesting.

They have a membership but every chapel also has friends.

Business people with a family connection, perhaps.

Very often, the solution is to find those people.

Councillors and so on who are able to help without having to attend.

Thank you.

This week we heard that a Labour Party stalwart

at Westminster, Ann Clwyd, will not stand in the next General Election.

One of our guests tonight used to work for her. You can guess who.

One of his first jobs

after a decade of living on the streets as an alcoholic.

A story we heard in the recent S4C programme, Gadael Y Gwter.

Why did you take the risk?

I didn't know you.

You wrote to me and I thought it was such a good letter

I had an interest in meeting whoever wrote it.

I thought you had a troubled past

and that you had suffered a lot.

You had done some foolish things, like everyone else.

I thought it was worth meeting you.

After meeting you, I thought, this man can talk,

I'm sure he can also take action.

And she took the risk, John.

We heard this week that she's leaving.

-Well, she'll go to the House of Lords, won't she?

-I'm not sure.

But the work will continue.

The work she has taken an interest in,

from the Cynon Valley, such as compensation for the miners,

keeping the Tower Colliery and reopening it

and then going to Indonesia and Iraq.

She has campaigned on many fronts.

The two words I would use to describe her political contribution

are perseverance and determination.

This is a woman who was sacked by Neil Kinnock twice

as leader of the Labour Party and she was sacked by Tony Blair.

As someone who worked for her,

she was a rebel but she was very close to Tony Blair.

She fought for him.

There was a combination of a rebel and someone very loyal.

Naturally, as Chair of the Parliamentary Labour Party,

you would expect her to have a close relationship

with the Prime Minister.

As Chair of the Parliamentary Labour Party,

she would meet the Prime Minister once a week.

But, fundamentally, what was important to her

and what will remain important to her

after leaving the House of Commons is the Cynon Valley electorate

and the various issues, like Iraq and Indonesia - human rights.

If I may give a quick plug,

I think a sign of things to come is that she's at Bangor University

giving a lecture on human rights on February 16th.

And she's not the only one stepping down.

There's a raft of people.

Yes, but the most surprising fact is that Ann Clwyd was the fourth

woman to reach Westminster.

30 years later, only 12 female MPs have represented Wales

at the House of Commons.

She will be disappointed with that. She expected more to follow her.

A subject for another day. Thank you.

And that's it for tonight.

We'll be back at the same time next week.

From Vaughan and I and our guests tonight, good night.