25/06/2014 Y Sgwrs

The freedom of the press.

The concern over Islamic fundamentalism.

Has the Westminster Government's green credentials withered?

Plenty to discuss on Y Sgwrs.

Welcome.

Joining us tonight weather presenter and columnist Sian Lloyd,

Conservative AM Paul Davies,

and the former head of BBC Wales news Gwilym Owen joins us from Bangor.

Welcome to all three of you.

Coming up tonight,

we'll discuss the concerns about Islamic fundamentalism in Cardiff

after two young men from the city appeared in a video

to encourage more people to fight in Syria and Iraq.

Also, what is the connection between these dogs

and the Westminster Government's green agenda?

You'll get the answer before the end of the programme.

But first tonight,

David Cameron was under pressure in the Commons this afternoon

as he faced questions as a result of the phone hacking scandal.

Yesterday, a jury at the Old Bailey decided

his former media consultant, Andy Coulson,

was guilty of conspiring to hack phones

when he was editor of the News of the Word.

I take full responsibility for employing Andy Coulson.

I did so on the basis of assurances that I received,

but also the Select Committee received.

But I always said, if those assurances turned out to be wrong,

I would apologise fully and frankly

to this House of Commons.

I do so again today from this despatch box.

And the truth about this is the charge against the Prime Minister

is not one of ignorance, it is one of wilful negligence.

At the heart of this scandal are thousands of innocent victims

of phone hacking he didn't stand up for.

The Prime Minister will always be remembered

as being the first ever occupant of his office

who brought a criminal into the heart of Downing Street.

It was a heated session, to say the least, Paul Davies.

Where does this leave us?

David Cameron says he gave Andy Coulson a second chance,

but a second chance for someone who had resigned from a company

whose reputation was in pieces.

Where does that leave David Cameron's credibility

when it comes to hiring staff?

To be fair to David Cameron,

I believe he made it clear months ago

that he would apologise if Andy Coulson was found guilty.

We have now found out that Andy Coulson is guilty.

The horse has bolted. It's easy to say that once it's happened.

We've since heard the PM received a number of warnings

but appears to have ignored them.

It's easy for us all now to look back.

David Cameron has made it clear

that he made a mistake when he employed Andy Coulson.

That is why he has apologised.

He apologised yesterday and to the House of Commons today.

I believe the situation is clear when it comes to his situation.

Gwilym Owen, Ed Miliband said today that a criminal

had entered No10 Downing Street.

He said this Government had been tainted by the hacking scandal.

Do you believe this is a short term problem for the PM

or is it something that will affect his leadership for a long time?

I don't believe it will be a long-term problem.

It was a storm, and a great drama, in the House today.

The MPs on both sides had fun with it.

It almost caused as much of a storm as Suarez down in Brazil.

But nobody bit anyone.

They did everything but bite each other.

I don't think the effect of what happened...

This has been a long and costly storm.

But I doubt it will add up to much.

Within six months, everything, remembering it's an election year,

Cameron, Miliband and everyone else will face more important things

over the next year.

Andy Coulson's background contrasts with the Prime Minister's.

He comes from a council house, a comprehensive school

while Cameron went to Eton.

Essex boy.

Can you see why he was at such pains to get Andy Coulson

to bridge the gap between the PM and working class Conservative voters?

It was a good appointment.

But I feel if he had employed a Welsh-speaking boy from Cardiff

by the name of Guto Harri, we wouldn't have this trouble now.

But it was a good appointment.

He is cleaning up the mess now.

It comes down to the fact

that the Conservatives, excuse me, aren't always in touch.

Also, he was incredibly good at his job.

Had this not come to light,

the appointment would have been fantastic.

Both sides needed to be connected.

Where does this leave us with regards to managing the press?

We have the Royal Charter on one hand.

We then have the newspaper heads

who want to manage the press in another way.

It's still a mess, isn't it?

You have a difference of opinion, depending on who you speak to

regarding this issue.

I believe we must look at this

and decide on the best way forward.

I'm a bit nervous, I must admit,

that we may legislate in the future on the press.

I believe we have an important principle here in Wales and the UK

regarding a free press.

We must make sure that continues.

One thing no regulator can do

is to make sure law breaking doesn't take place.

That is entirely possible, of course.

After all, I don't want to protect Rupert Murdoch's empire.

That is the last thing I'd wish to do.

But in the long term, as this case has proved,

a very small group of Murdoch's workers

were responsible for what happened.

The rest have been found not guilty.

Only one has so far been found guilty.

Another five have pleaded guilty.

In such a large industry,

I wonder if we've made too much of a storm out of it

and paid so much money

on getting politicians out of a hole.

In the end, this comes back to the fact

that politicians of every party over the years

have courted and looked after their relationship with Murdoch's empire.

They placed themselves in an impossible situation.

While Murdoch's empire continues...

Even Alex Salmond in Scotland has been caught in Murdoch's net

during the last year or so.

It isn't healthy.

The politicians are as much at fault as the journalists.

On that point, is there going to be a change

in the relationship between people like Rupert Murdoch and his ilk

and politicians?

We've seen Blair, Brown, Cameron trying to attract this man.

Is it a lesson for politicians and newspaper owners

to keep their distance from one another?

I agreed entirely with Gwilym.

The most frightening thing that came out of the whole thing

was the fact that the corridors of power,

the British establishment, was just as powerful as ever.

For me, the crawling done by the politicians,

as well as the police...

You have members of the Government, the police

and the media getting closer,

eating together, having cocktails together,

going riding with each other.

One former PM is the godfather to one of Rupert Murdoch's sons.

The whole situation is frightening.

The journalists should be doing exactly the opposite to this.

Can I ask you, as you're the closest thing on this panel to a celeb...

Famous people need the press and the media.

The media and press need famous people to sell papers or stories.

Does that relationship also need to change?

It's isn't as unhealthy as the relationship

members of the Government have with the media,

especially Murdoch's companies.

Nothing could be that bad.

It is so superficial.

Personally, I'm not comfortable with Hacked Off.

People who've dropped their trousers are in charge of Hacked Off.

Those aren't the kind of people I want to represent me

or anyone else who may have complaints about the press.

I believe we must ask questions of Murdoch and the company

but also of the police.

This co-conspiring with the police...

They had, back in 2006, they had something like 11,000 pages

of evidence about this hacking.

The cases are continuing. We must move on.

Next tonight,

the situation in Iraq has intensified in recent weeks.

It has come to light that three young men from Cardiff

have joined ISIS rebels who are fighting there and in Syria.

The development has raised concerns

about the radicalisation of young Muslims in the capital city.

One person with a connection to the Muslim community in Cardiff

is Reverend Aled Edwards from Wales' inter-faith council.

Here is his reaction to the situation.

We are here on the outskirts of Butetown,

one of the largest Muslim areas in Cardiff.

This community would say it's been here for more than a century

and that it is a peaceful community which is part of Welsh life.

They would say that what is happening concerning jihad here

is foreign to them, their mosques and their families and community.

Speaking to friends from this area in recent days,

they have expressed disappointment about what has happened.

They do not understand it and it baffles them.

Their mosques have condemned the jihadists,

as has the community and its families.

They are also concerned about their families and communities,

and that they are being misrepresented.

The question for us all is,

how do we challenge radicalism among the small minorities

that can be found in places like Cardiff?

The Muslim community says it has been talked about a lot

but it hasn't been listened to much.

Perhaps we would gain more if we listened carefully

and understood these are complicated problems

and that we must stand side by side with this community

instead of condemning it.

I believe we have important political decisions to take.

We could follow some negative instincts

to isolate this community and to grow distant from it and fear it.

Or we could take hold of much better images

which are inclusive, warm

and show a kind of Wales where we are all equal

and have the right to be Welsh

in a new society with a better understanding of itself.

The situation from Aled Edwards' perspective.

The leader of your party has called for a conference

where all the agencies can come together to discuss this situation.

Is that a sign that you, as a party,

believe things should be done that aren't currently being done?

It's important that we all work together

and stand firm against this hatred that we have seen.

We have a very good tradition in Wales and across Britain

of being a tolerant society. It's important that this continues.

We've embraced all sorts of religions and that's very important.

But what is important, I think, in response to what's happened

in the last week, is that the response is being led

by the communities.

But we all have to cooperate with each other to make sure

that happens and that we support these communities now.

That's why I think my leader has called for

some kind of summit to discuss these matters

and to make sure we raise awareness about this.

Gwilym Owen, is there somebody somewhere who's

failing these young people?

Are they disillusioned?

Do they feel that they've been lost in the system?

They feel there's no hope, be that a lack of jobs

or is a matter where their community has to take more responsibility

for them?

I'm not very close to the situation any more.

after living in Cardiff for years.

I've always felt, just as Paul Davies and Aled Edwards said,

that the community in Cardiff

was a happy an international community.

There were no bad feelings. Cardiff didn't have a bad name...

But this isn't the first case where people from Cardiff

have been radicalised?

No. But I do think that we here...

I liked the way Alun Michael, the Police Commissioner,

was talking the other day about this problem.

It was exactly what Aled Edwards and Paul Davies said.

It's the community itself and through the community itself

that this problem should be faced.

Radicalisation... Fundamentalism in any religion is dangerous.

Once such fundamentalism like that takes hold

and you have powerful people coming to Cardiff and its mosques

to pray... But it's nothing new in Wales.

A century ago the Calvinist Methodists were radicalising

young boys by their thousands here in Wales,

and turning them out to fight in a war they knew nothing about.

People like Dr John Williams, Brynsiencyn and his type.

Dozens of Welsh people like Tom Jones, Shotton

went to fight in the war in Spain.

This isn't anything new.

Is this happening because there is a feeling these young people

feel lost in community?

I think it's up to that community in Cardiff to face up to that.

I don't know enough about the problem locally

to make an opinion.

But it's very sad that something like this is taking place

but I think this problem should be faced within the community.

Sian, do you think that the West has wronged these people

through the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?

In the same way Britain and America thought

the wars were justified, these people obviously think

-their own wars are justified?

-Of course they do.

It would be helpful if Tony Blair shut his mouth.

As soon as he says anything, the tension mounts.

It's no wonder that someone recently called him

the terrorist's best friend.

I think he should resign.

What kind of authority do we have,

especially a moral authority, in this country

after Blair and the Neocons, and his best friend, Bush,

destroyed Iraq?

How much faith is in our good name now?

It's all a farce.

I think that increased the sense of us and them.

They feel like the "them".

Is that enough to justify these people's actions?

Of course not.

But think about it, only a small majority of people do this.

I don't think Cardiff is worse than anywhere else in Britain.

No worse than Manchester, Birmingham or Leicester or wherever.

According to the figures, there are five from Wales in Syria.

But I don't really believe these figures.

Cameron has been speaking this week.

MI6 has been speaking, the police has been speaking.

But I don't buy into this danger in the same way...

I think there is an agenda here.

There's politics here which is scaring people

exactly like the 45 minutes of those dodgy dossiers.

We have to move on. That's dangerous ground!

There's been a serious reduction in the Westminster government's emphasis

on the environment, according to Friends of the Earth Cymru.

According to the organisation's director,

Prime Minister David Cameron has turned his back on green issues

in order to concentrate on the economy.

So, how green is the politicians' agenda?

A question for Janet Ebenezer.

His government would be the greenest ever government.

That was David Cameron's promise and vision back in 2010.

Who can forget the amazing pictures of him on the back of a slay

in Norway at the start of his career as Tory leader.

Was it a suggestion to Hug a Husky?

It was a clear picture of the coalition's promise to green issues.

Within days of creating his brand-new cabinet in 2010,

this is what he said.

I want us to be the greenest government ever.

A very simple ambition and one I'm committed to achieving.

But a year later at the party's conference

was the green colour fading?

Britain makes up less than 2% of the world's carbon emissions

to China and America's 40%.

We're not going to save the planet

by putting our country out of business.

We're going to cut our carbon emissions,

no slower but also no faster than our fellow countries in Europe.

That's what I've insisted on in the recent carbon budget.

Although there were measures to charge for plastic bags

and another to make sure that new homes were carbon-free,

the main message of this year's Queen Speech

was to have a stronger economy.

There was a lot of rhetoric before the last election.

Cameron had said, vote for us and you'll get your green policies.

But that didn't happen.

Throughout this parliament, we've seen a huge deterioration

on the emphasis surrounding the environment.

Now, it seems that the environment is totally unimportant

and insignificant.

Although that Westminster is responsible for green projects

such as wind turbines and nuclear energy,

the environment has been devolved.

This week in London, the Welsh Government was trying to attract

green businesses to invest in Wales.

Today, an Assembly committee has heard evidence

by the Wales Audit Office which questions the government's ability

to hit its recycling target of 58%

by 2016.

Certainly, on the big questions

Westminster has all the power.

It is difficult to say whether the government here is green.

They say they want to attract more jobs

dealing with the green economy into Wales.

That definitely suits their economic agenda.

But when it comes to the big questions

it's difficult to say how the government in Cardiff Bay

will face that because they don't have the powers.

It seems that the Conservative Party has changed its logo again.

The little green tree has been replaced by a much more

British symbol, the Union flag.

Maybe the days of Hug a Husky have long disappeared

but climate change is more evident than ever.

Bad weather such as storms and floods are now annual events.

But with the election on the horizon

it seems that the Conservatives have decided that promoting the economy,

creating jobs and cutting income tax are what's important to voters.

Is that fair?

We'll see unless than a year if you agree or not.

In a statement a spokesman for the Tories said

their promise to tackle climate change hadn't changed.

The party insists that its long-term plan

for the economy doesn't undermine their efforts to tackle

global warming. Mush, mush!

Janet and her new pets!

Gwilym, are you any good at putting the baked beans tin in the green bin

and the rest of your caviar in the brown bin?

Yes, especially the caviar!

Yes, I do that. Here in Gwynedd, by now...

..we'll be without a refuse collection for three weeks.

There'll be an awful stink here.

No, I think... It's funny you're discussing this tonight,

according to the information I've had this is one of the first things

Coulson suggested to David Cameron

after he joined him in Downing Street.

He told him to forget the green policy and bury it.

That was one of Coulson's influences.

This policy isn't a policy

that will win him the next election.

Who can blame him or his party for turning their backs...

I think this is just nonsense.

It's talking for talking's sake.

I don't see us going far with it.

But I'm old and old-fashioned.

Paul Davies, what happened to this slogan -

vote blue, go green?

David Cameron had a wind turbine on his own roof at one stage.

That has disappeared along with this promise.

The green levy is going, promises are just empty words.

Of course, these policies continue.

This government is the first in history

to set up a green investment bank.

No other government has done that.

They will invest billions of pounds in this bank

so that people can set up green businesses

in order to create green jobs.

You have to ask the question, are there more solar farm now

compared to five years ago?

Is there more research into

these things, the green policies?

Yes, there is more research...

No subsidies for wind energy on land after 2015.

That's already been announced by your government.

The reality is there are more solar farms

compared with five years ago.

So, these policies are always developing.

A word with Sian, is there an element of fashion

belonging to the environment?

It was fashionable for people to talk about it in 2010.

Caroline Lucas, the Green candidate was voted in back then.

By now we've seen the banks crashing, the economy is in trouble.

There are more important things for people to worry about.

They aren't separate.

The CBI has said that we could have £2 billion-worth

of jobs in Britain through the green economy.

It is a valid argument.

Thank goodness that David Cameron did get rid of the green levy

because that sustained the horrible wind farms.

Fashion hasn't changed but the technology.

We need new technology such as nuclear fusion

-and algae and so on...

-You've said that like an expert.

On that point, time has beaten us, sorry.

That's it for tonight.

Thank you to my guests for joining me and to you too for watching.

Y Sgwrs will be back at the same time next week.