Rick Rubin meets Zane Lowe

MUSIC: "God's Gonna Cut You Down" by Johnny Cash

# You can run on for a long time

# Run on for a long time

# Run on for a long time

# Sooner or later God'll cut you down

# Sooner or later God'll cut you down... #

ZANE LOWE: To me, Rick Rubin is one of the most important musical

figures of all time.

Most people watching this, whether they know it or not,

have listened to, enjoyed or bought a record crafted by Rick Rubin.

Jay-Z's 99 Problems, that was Rick Rubin.

Shakira's Hips Don't Lie, yep, that was Rick too.

Eminem's Berzerk, Kanye's Yeezus,

Adele, Ed Sheeran - the list goes on and on and on.

From Run DMC to the Beastie Boys,

from laying the foundations of hip-hop with his Def Jam label

to reshaping the world of rock music via Slayer,

Slipknot and Metallica,

Rick Rubin's achievements are frankly staggering,

but there's one thing that Rick Rubin doesn't do much of and that's talk...

until now.

In the next hour, you will get an all too rare audience with a man

who made our musical world what it is.

No other talking heads, no tours of old neighbourhoods,

just the man himself,

sat in the garden of his Shangri-la studios,

telling it like it is. This is Rick Rubin.

- So good to see you. - A pleasure, sir.

Nice one. So let's just start with the immediate location

cos it's impossible to ignore.

I mean, we're literally in the garden surrounded by fresh fruit.

You've got the beach Malibu just down the hill.

This is just an idyllic location full of history,

so tell us how you got involved with Shangri-la.

Erm... I moved to the neighbourhood and was looking for a place to work,

and one of the bands I was working with found it and asked

if I would come to rehearsal.

And I came to rehearsal and it was really kind of dingy at the time.

Yeah.

And it had fallen into disrepair over the years,

but it was the closest and most convenient place.

And, surprisingly, the stuff that came out of here really sounded good.

We were surprised. We didn't know that it was going to sound

- as good as it did. - And you saved it, too.

You were saying someone was going to buy it and tear it down.

Yeah. It was... The guy decided to sell it.

I didn't want to... I didn't want to own a studio...

- Despite such a thriving business(!) - THEY LAUGH

But... Again, it really was a question of saving it

because someone was going to tear it down,

- just build a big house here. - Yeah.

So, luckily, it gets to... We preserved it.

Yeah, well, thank you for doing so cos just walking around

and getting a quick tour of the place is amazing.

I mean, you were saying that, obviously,

Bob Dylan's old tour bus at the back there,

often using that while this is going on.

You were saying that you did some mixing for Kanye's record in there.

Yeah, we did.

You've had such an incredible 12, 18 months.

Obviously we'll get to your entire life,

but let's talk about the recent past because

you've been involved in some fantastic records...

I just brought up Kanye - let's start with that.

You've talked quite openly about the reduction of that record,

about bringing it down to its elements and stripping things away.

Just give us a little more insight into what it was

when he brought you into the equation.

It was... It...

There were loads of great ideas and there were many, many tracks,

and we listened to everything together.

He originally came over and said,

"I want to come play you my new album."

I thought we were going to listen to the finished album,

and then we listened to about three hours of music,

most of which didn't have vocals. And...

And at the end of it it's like, "Wow. So what's...?

"What's it going to be?" I'm thinking it's a year away and he's like,

"Well, I'm putting it out in..." I think it was like five or six...

"It's coming out in five or six weeks." Like, "Really?"

It's like... I said, "I have another album that's a lot further along

"than this and it's not coming out for probably five months."

ZANE LAUGHS

And he's like, "Really?"

Just a funny conversation cos it was completely normal to him.

- Yeah. - It's just the way he works.

- Yeah. - And...

And then we listened to some music together - other music -

and at the end of it he said, "Would you...

"just help me finish it? Let's go in together and..."

I think he said, "I think we can probably do it in five days."

It ended up being more like three weeks or a little over three weeks.

What's your honest impression of him?

Cos he's very honest about his impressions of everyone

and everything else.

I've been privy to that in conversation and I love him.

I love him, too. I think he's a great guy, super smart.

And from a creative standpoint,

I can't think of anyone who's come out...

who has been more consistently great...

from the time they started making music until now,

I can't think of anyone else.

- Hmm. - I think he's...

the most consistently great creative person in music today.

What is the common thread for you with rap music?

What is the chromosome that you really think is truly

important for your love of rap music?

Erm...

It's very hard...

I don't know if it can be answered because so much of it

comes from the unique perspective of that particular artist.

And...

I guess it could be...

..an honesty and a point of view that's particular to that person...

- That authentic point of view. - ..it feels like it's not just good

lyrics over good beats.

It has to be more than good lyrics over good beats.

- Which Eminem has. - 100%.

I think he's probably...

Well, he's certainly the most honest, I think, there's ever been.

Maybe the best rapper of any MC, he may be the best.

You have a unique perspective, having spent time

producing him in the studio.

I haven't had a chance to meet or talk to Dre about this.

Other than that, really, it just comes down to Eminem.

- He does a lot of his own stuff. - Yeah.

What was that experience like, having him in the booth?

And what's he like to work with, just purely on a recording level?

Erm... He's very...

hyper...critical of detail...

and hears the music in a very deep way. And hears...

internal rhythms in tracks and writes words to...

..to work on so many different levels rhythmically within what's

going on musically to where...

If we change a little thing in the track to better the track...

it might not work in his mind how it relates to what he's saying

and how he's phrasing.

His phrasing is so glued to the music and written that way, like,

he just sees it as...

..not just riding the flow - it's much more complex.

And he's always writing. He's always writing,

not when he's making an album. He's always writing in life.

He's got these notebooks he carries around and he's always writing.

And he said to me he knows...

probably 99% of it, 98% of it will never be used for anything,

but he wants his facility...

to be there, so that when he needs to write something it's like...

It's like practice. He's just...

- master-level practice all the time. - He's a rhyme fiend.

He is. He really is.

I always think, when you're working with artists,

and I'm going to speak for them in a way,

when they get to a place like Shangri-la or

they get to work with a person like you, with your experience

and the people that you've worked with and your love of music,

that...

they walk in as an excitable fan.

A lot of producers go the other way. It's true, though.

I think that that goes from someone like Ed Sheeran,

who's on his second album, all the way up,

if I'm honest, to Metallica. And it always makes me laugh

when I think about you working with someone like Black Sabbath...

cos I think that's probably the moment when the tables flipped.

- Yeah. - In a big way.

In all of them... I'm really fans...

I'm really a fan of music and, luckily,

I get to work with these great artists every day,

pretty much, in the studio.

I have this feeling of, like, "I can't believe...

"this person is so talented. I can't believe they're this good.

"I can't believe it. I can't believe someone can sing this good.

"I can't believe someone can play this good."

I guess what I mean is,

when you get together with Johnny Cash or Black Sabbath,

you might have a tiny bit of you that goes,

"I can't believe I'm in the room with..."

Always. Neil Young, any of these people, you can't believe it.

You can't believe...

Some of these people, you get to meet them,

you can't even believe that they walk the earth.

You meet Paul McCartney, it's like,

"That guy is alive walking the earth.

"He wrote all those songs." It's unbelievable.

ZANE LAUGHS It's unbelievable.

- So let's talk about Sabbath... - Yeah.

..which is a record I am sure you were dying to make your whole life.

I mean, what an important influence for you.

I had a meeting with them, probably...

I would say about 15 years ago, with the whole band,

and we met at my house in town and talked about making a record.

And they were very excited to do it at that time.

And then they started writing together...and...

And then it just never came together.

They called one day and it's, like, "Writing's not...

"It's not really happening."

And then they all went off and did their own thing.

And then I was surprised to get a call from them, whenever it was,

two years ago or something, saying...

"We think the time is now.

"We've started doing a little bit of writing.

"Do you want to do this?" Absolutely. Black Sabbath.

When you sit down and you get to work with a band like that,

and you look at all the time that's gone in-between albums,

how do you approach it different to, say, working with an artist

that you have a more consistent...

recording track record with?

How did you feel about picking up on a band like that

that gave us some remarkable records, but they were decades ago?

Yeah. I can't say...

I can't categorise the more grown-up artists as it works this way

with them. It really is...

I spend time with the artist and kind of see where they're at, and...

..imagine...

I try to imagine what them at their best is.

And...

then try to set up whatever situations

we can to allow that to happen.

We really have no control over it happening is the reality.

It's... It's a frustrating job in many respects because...

It's like fishing. You can go out fishing but you can't say,

"I'm going to catch three fish today."

It's like... We have very little control over this process.

It's magic, really, what's happening.

You caught so much fire from that Black Sabbath record. I mean...

You said you wanted to make it feel like you picked up from where

- they left off. - Yeah, that was the goal.

That was the goal.

You did it. I mean, that has to be in them to do.

They have to be ready to go into a room like that.

- 100%. - What happens when...?

A lot of the job is the expect...

It's like setting up an expectation that we really can make

a great Black Sabbath record that stands alongside their best work.

I can remember having a conversation with Johnny Cash, saying,

"We're going to make the best album you've ever made."

He looked at me like I was insane. "How can you even think that way?"

He felt like he hadn't made a good record in, probably, 25 years

and had been discarded.

At the time that I met him he was playing at dinner theatres,

and had been dropped from two labels and...

Nobody cared.

So the idea of...

..shifting that...

..reframing the experience to not just,

"Well, let's just do an album.

"Let's do whatever it takes for it to be the best album you've ever made.

"What would that sound like? How would that work?

"How much work would go into it?

"Are you willing to commit to that?"

- Yeah. - Erm...

Cos it's not easy and some artists don't like it.

I've worked with some artists where it hasn't worked out,

where they just are not willing to do the work.

I wondered because...

I could tell from spending time with you this morning

and listening to the music how much you invest of your heart

and your soul into the project to try

and make it work as best as possible for the artist...

- Absolutely. - And I can only imagine,

with that amount of commitment comes an equal amount of heartbreak

- when it doesn't pan out. - Absolutely.

And it... But it really is like...

It all stems from the relationship with the artist,

and finding that place where...

together we're working to make this thing, this unbelievable thing,

and there are no limitations that we put in the way of that happening.

You've quite rightly said that it's...

It's very different for every artist and that's why each record is

- so different and so great. - 100%.

But you talked about getting to know the artist

and getting the relationship moving with the artist to get them

to the place where they've got the confidence

and they feel trust in the process. Erm...

Does it get personal? I know with Johnny, I mean,

it sounds like you guys obviously struck up

an incredibly important friendship.

I'm sure it started with those conversations.

Absolutely. And it often gets very personal - it doesn't always -

but it often gets very personal...and we end up being very close.

- Yeah. - The goal is to create...

..a setting when artists can be completely vulnerable

and...

..feel completely free to be themselves...

100%. No shame or feeling of needing to perform

a certain way. And no expectation.

Just really a safe place to be naked, basically.

Show their innermost soul.

And...

And sometimes it's as simple as...

not having anyone else, not allowing anyone to be in the studio.

Sometimes, when friends are around,

an artist wants to perform for the friends.

And... And for some artists,

having friends around gets a better performance out of them.

For other artists, it does the exact opposite.

Yeah.

So it's like really reading the situation,

seeing what's right for that artist and experimenting.

So much of it is experimentation.

Very rarely do I go in with a preconception of what it's

going to be, other than really good, and know that it will be

as long of a journey as it needs to be for it to be really good.

And your journey has been incredible.

I mean, not just musically, but personally as well.

I mean, today...

you just seem totally at peace

and you've got this incredibly creative space...

an amazing place in the world to live.

But... You were born and raised in New York, and you were a punk,

and it was a hardcore upbringing in terms of musically, you know?

Absolutely.

What a journey. So, when you first started listening to music and...

you first discovered the passion, the power of it, what was it?

What was the genre?

The Beatles was the first thing. I was probably five years old,

four years old, six years old.

The Beatles... The Beatles and the Monkees...

were sort of the thing.

And then I probably stopped listening to music

by the time I was seven or eight.

I got into magic, and I started learning about magic

and being a magician.

And then I got back into music in junior high school and it was...

at that time, Aerosmith, AC/DC,

Ted Nugent. Hard rock was the first thing and then that morphed into...

when punk rock happened.

I was listening to the Clash

and the Sex Pistols at the same time as the hard rock,

but it wasn't really until the American hardcore...

Like...

Minor Threat and Black Flag, and those felt more relatable to me,

just because of what they were singing about, really.

They were singing about more personal stuff,

whereas the English bands tended to talk more about class struggle

and things that we didn't really experience here in America,

so it seemed more foreign, like the...

I didn't understand why that was something to yell about

when I was a kid, but...

Minor Threat singing about, you know, a friend lying to you...

that was a very real, relatable feeling.

And you wanted to participate. I mean, you were always a fan,

but you felt the urge to go and form bands and...

Yeah. I always played and...

felt like I wanted to be part of it.

I never felt like I was particularly good at any...

any part of it.

But I enjoyed it and was always passionate about it.

There's something that was written in an article -

and I'm not sure if it's true - but I thought it was fascinating,

and it was that during one of the first shows that you guys played -

I think it was at CBGB's - there was an incident.

It turned out that you kind of said to your friends,

"Let's stage something."

And your dad had come down and gone, "You guys, get out of this place!"

- Is that true? - It is true.

What I loved about that is the fact that, you know, obviously

your heart is completely and utterly into music,

but you understood how to get attention. I liked the idea of...

I've always also appreciated the theatrical nature of things and...

Especially in the early Beastie Boys, we were really...

trying to push those buttons...

And we were probably influenced...

At the time, we were really into Monty Python

and we were really into Steve Martin and...

I heard wrestling as well. I heard you were a big fan of wrestling.

I always loved pro wrestling, and it's...

You know, it's a ridiculous world. It's a very...

..over the top, theatrical, crazy world.

And... So those...

Those were inspirations that sort of filtered in

and that's where the kind of more theatrical side of it...

The Beasties... We used to do really confrontational shows...

- Yeah. - ..in the Beasties and...

it was funny. ZANE LAUGHS

- It was just ridiculous. - It makes perfect sense, you know,

when you think about some of the music that you're making,

the way it was being presented

in the early Def Jam days as well, it was...

It was hard and it was tough and it was very concrete, and it was like...

it'll beat you down to listen to,

but there was a cartoon nature to it as well.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Like the songs that...

Like...

There are some really offensive songs

on the first Beastie Boys album and...

since then, they've felt bad about those songs when, in reality,

when we were doing it, we knew, "This isn't how we feel.

"These are ridiculous, funny songs. These are..."

The reason they had the power they did is

because of how ridiculous and offensive they were.

It wasn't anything to...

I saw the same thing, actually, happen to Black Flag.

Black Flag had that song TV Party...

and when they put it out, originally, what that song was about was a sort

of sarcastic song about people who just sit around and watch TV all day

while we're going out to change the world. That was...

It didn't say that in the song,

but that's what the message of the song was.

And then, when the song got popular, it went from the people

at the show changing from the people who were in on the joke

to people who were coming to celebrate a TV party.

- Thought it was a slacker anthem. - Exactly.

- Yeah. - Which it wasn't.

And the same is true with the Beasties,

where there were these songs that were...

We knew it was funny, but some people...

And I met some rappers who were like,

"I can't believe you guys weren't smoking dust

"and doing all the stuff that the record said,

"smoking crack and..." Which we weren't.

Did it make you want to...

Did that kind of raise the honest game for you in music?

Like, "OK, humour's cool, this is fun,

"but if we continue just making records like this then it's

"going to be a whole world of...

"preconceptions and misunderstandings."

Did it kind of teach you a little lesson at that point?

I don't think so. I think it's...

I think it's whatever's right for that particular artist.

It was years later that we did Baby's Got Back with Sir Mix-A-Lot,

which was, again, a ridiculous song.

- Yeah. - And...

You know, I really like it. I like what it is.

We're going to spend about 20 minutes talking about that song.

BOTH LAUGH

Let's talk about Def Jam, you know...

because obviously it's a part of your life.

It's a huge part of your legacy,

but as a label, as a brand, it continues.

It's incredible. That logo is still incredibly iconic.

Did you know when you designed it, when you looked at the Def Jam logo

and you put the turntable on there, you were pushing for that?

I had no idea. I thought in terms of

I like iconic logos and I wanted to make something beautiful,

but I never thought anybody would ever see it...ever.

The same with the records we made in the early days,

we didn't... We didn't make them thinking, "Oh, this is going to

"change the world," or, "I can't wait for everybody to hear it."

It was more like, "I know my friends will like this and if...

"You know, if 500 people hear it, that's amazing.

"If we can sell enough of these

"to get to make another one we've succeeded."

So what happened with I Need A Beat, when LL Cool J blew up?

Obviously you'd made, you know, It's Yours by then.

You'd integrated yourself well and truly into the community

by making a dope record, but then you started to have success.

Def Jam started to sell copies.

Yeah. Again, we were in college, probably 20 years old at the time,

and...

I don't think it ever really registered. It was just sort of...

We were completely absorbed with music and making music,

and... The fact that people liked it was cool,

but it didn't affect anything that we were doing. It just...

When did you move out of the dorm room?

At what point did that...get too small?

Late. I didn't move out of the dorm...

Def Jam was in the dorm room for, at least, 18 months.

- Crazy! - At least 18 months.

Just stacked with records?

Both my dorm room was stacked with records and a full PA system

and DJ setup, and it was, you know, a tiny cell.

It was ridiculous.

How did you not get kicked out of university for running...?

It came very close. It came very close.

Payola, huh? RICK LAUGHS

There was actually a...

- The dorm had a governing body... - Right.

..and they called a meeting of the governing body for the first

time since the dorm had been.

There had never been a reason to call a meeting of this governing body.

ZANE LAUGHS

- And then you walk in... - They called the meeting to decide

whether they were going to throw me out.

- That's amazing. - Luckily, they didn't throw me out.

You were thrilled by that.

It was interesting, but I really didn't want to get thrown out,

because we had a very good thing going.

But obviously, you're conscious of the fact that,

at that time, the records you were making, the fun you were having,

you're still that punk rock kid, right?

Absolutely. It was... It was a complete punk rock...

The initial energy of Def Jam was a more urban version of punk rock -

that's how we saw it.

What was Russell Simmons like back then?

The coolest guy, just...

He was about five years older than me.

He already had produced Jimmy Spicer and Run DMC records

and Curtis Blow records. And...

There weren't, as we were discussing,

there weren't that many rap records in those days...

- and his name was on a lot of them. - Yeah.

So it was really a big honour for me to meet him, even then,

because he was on all these records.

I was a kid in school.

So getting to meet him...

It was like...

He was the first person I met, really, in the record business.

You know, really in the record business. And if you...

If you compared him to people who were really in the record business,

they wouldn't think that he was in the record business.

But from where we were...

he was actually involved and that was more than anyone we knew.

You seemed to be the perfect partnership for Def Jam at that

moment in time, and then things kind of went wrong.

I mean, I've never spoken to you about it.

What was the cause for the...?

- It didn't really go wrong... - So what happened?

What happened was we had this incredible success over

a five-year period, like wild success.

And in the growth, when things get big, it gets very confusing and

I was, as I say, 20, 21 at the time, Russell was 26...

You don't really know how to handle the pressure of this big thing and...

we didn't really have any structure in the way things worked...

So we were often played against each other by other people

and it was just frustrating.

Any time me and Russell were together it was - we were always cool.

But when we were forced to make decisions independently,

a lot of times, he wouldn't like my decision

and I wouldn't like his decision,

but there was no system to deal with that.

We were just trying to put out a lot of fires

cos there were a lot of fires.

And eventually I thought, "You know, I love this guy and,

"for the sake of our relationship, maybe it's better

"if we're not partners."

Cos the partnership was starting to, like...

We had to like everything the other guy did.

- Hmm-hmm. - So...

We also now, in retrospect, could have...

If we knew more, if we were adults, we probably would have found

a way to better communicate and that would have been fine.

It would have been completely fine.

Things would have been different though.

- It was meant to be. - It was meant to be.

Meant to be. And our interests were different. Like...

I always cared about...

making great music, period,

and Russell always cared about being a successful businessman,

and sometimes those roads didn't go together.

And those were often the things that we would argue about -

like the art has to come first. And...

And sometimes it wouldn't.

And when I understood his business reason for it, he was right. Erm...

My nature was, "It's gotta be about the art."

Dan Charnas wrote in a book...

that you just closed the door on your apartment in New York

and flew to Los Angeles, flew west, and kind of just left it.

That's true.

I actually didn't...

Well, it wasn't a decision like that.

I flew to Los Angeles to work on some music and just didn't come back.

- That would be a more accurate... - It's a less dramatic truth.

It's the truth. It wasn't like I decided, "I'm getting out of here."

- Yeah. - It was more of a...

I was starting an album, there was a movie called Less Than Zero,

and we did the soundtrack for that, and that was based in LA.

So we made all those records in LA

and I was out here for a couple of months.

And then at the end of that I was living in a hotel,

and I ended up living in a hotel for nine months.

I would drive around the Hollywood Hills

because I came from a place that was very flat...

and seeing these houses built in these hills was just

an amazing thing. So every weekend...

I went out with a local friend of mine and we would just drive

the Hills and look at houses and just, like, it was just so cool.

It was just such a new experience for me...

seeing this. And I always liked the music of...

Laurel Canyon, so we would look around Laurel Canyon,

- drive around and imagine... - Neil Young.

Yeah, Neil Young, Crosby, Stills and Nash and...

what that world was like. Carole King.

These amazing, amazing songwriters.

It was probably needed at the time, given that you were coming out of

the back of what has been, like you say,

you didn't fall out, but stressful times.

It was the end of Def Jam...

I would say it was stressful, but there was no real falling out.

It was really... And I can remember going out to lunch

with Russell and saying,

"I feel like we'd be better friends if we weren't partners.

"Do you want to leave the company?"

He's like, "I don't want to leave." I was like, "OK, I'll leave."

It was as simple as that.

When you did leave, I mean, it was in such a fantastic position

and rap music was the developing mainstream art form

from the underground.

You had a huge role to play in that with Licensed To Ill, Run DMC...

Your work with Run DMC.

Are they the greatest...? OK... BOTH LAUGH

- Tough question. - A lot...

- Do I even ask that question? - It's impossible to answer.

- How could you answer that? - I know.

But we don't stop asking each other, friends and everyone else,

all the time...in terms of impact...

I will say that, at the time that I started making hip-hop records,

the idea of some day getting to work with Run DMC would have been...

That would have been just it.

- They're a canon. - That would have been it.

- The energy.

Working with them, getting that energy...

I know we're in Los Angeles now, in the grand scheme of things,

but I'm not ready to fly over there just...

I've got to go back to New York for a second.

- Let's talk about Run DMC... - Yeah, yeah.

..because... I mean, those two, those three guys,

the two MCs and Jam Master Jay, the three of them...

- What was it like? - Erm...

They really lived the hip-hop life. They were...

What's interesting about Run DMC is that the groups that

came before them didn't really own...

..the...

the hip-hop culture.

Like if you looked at...

Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five,

they dressed more like Parliament,

or Afrika Bambaataa and the Soulsonic Force, more like Parliament.

Their influences were...

..style influences, and often musical influences,

were more rooted in an older form of music.

Run DMC were the first actual B-boys, where...

- The way they dressed... - They hung out.

Yeah. Wearing the...

Wearing the...

..the shell toe Adidas and the warm-up suits and...

Artists didn't wear warm-up suits on stage in those days.

You know, they wore leather suits and feathers.

So it was radical to see these guys,

who looked like they could be hanging out in a park,

on stage and singing about different things.

And the music was different. The music was more...

It wasn't R&B, which, up till that time,

most rap records were still R&B records with guys rapping on them.

Run DMC were the first where it was, like...

- Drum machine. - ..real hip-hop.

- Yeah. - Hip-hop records.

And then... And they were still on the slick side and great.

And then with something like It's Yours, it was more of like...

more of the street side of it, you know,

made by people who didn't know what they were doing.

Whereas Run DMC had engineers and, like...

It was more professional and, er, the records I was making at the time,

it was more like punk rockers making hip-hop, which was different.

It was just a different aesthetic.

So you move out to Los Angeles and you decide to stay.

Well, you go out there to make a record and decide to stay.

Yeah.

And from there, the American saga begins and, you know,

Slayer, obviously - you'd already begun to work with Slayer. Yeah.

Made Reign In Blood - absolutely incredible record.

We were talking about short albums before.

I think Reign In Blood might be, like, 19 minutes long.

It's unbelievable

and it's probably an hour of music played in 19 minutes.

I know, I know, I know. By now, we're getting to know

that you have this broad aesthetic towards music,

this broad love of music as a producer, and I think

any hardcore fan of you knows that that's the way it's going to go.

Setting up American and moving forward,

did you have an idea as to what you wanted it to be?

No idea. Just music I liked.

It was always about music I liked, finding good things

and whatever moved me.

In amongst those... I mean, the first few years of American were kind of...

It was a fascinating catalogue of artists, you know,

cos you had the heavy side of things - you had Danzig -

but you also had, like, Andrew Dice Clay,

a stand-up comedian who was about the most offensive guy

- on a microphone at the time. - Absolutely. He fit right in.

He fit right in with our aesthetic.

And then you obviously had Sir Mix-A-Lot and Baby Got Back, as well.

Yeah. And the Black Crows were on the label, the Jayhawks.

Really cool bands. What were people...

I mean, in Los Angeles, where the industry exists and people

you were talking to...you know, how did they take this?

Someone walks in with this kind of catalogue of artists - unheard of.

Yeah, not... Honestly not well.

Pretty much every step of the way, people tried to talk me

out of what I was doing next.

You know, I can remember, er...

..when I formed American and being partners with Geffen Records.

They really wanted me to make rap records

because we had all the success with rap. It's like,

"Why would you do this? Why do you want to sign a comedian?

"Why do you want to sign the Geto Boys?"

That was another one that was, like, sort of a...

- Not everybody liked the Geto Boys. - Yeah.

I think musically, one of the major turning points for anyone

who's followed you and your work is Johnny Cash,

is when you started working with Johnny Cash.

Talk us through the beginning of that.

The way it happened was...

It was interesting. The label was relatively new.

All of the artists that I'd been working with were kind of young,

of the moment, first records, you know, or... Glenn Danzig had...

You know, he was in the Misfits but this was his new band, first record.

Slayer was still a pretty young band.

They'd made maybe two independent albums.

So it was a lot of young people

and I just thought it'd be interesting to find a grown-up artist

who's really talented and just hasn't been doing good work for a while

and, er...

..help them regain what they were.

And the first artist who came to mind was Johnny Cash.

And then I arranged to go and see him play

and he was everything that I thought he was.

He was amazing, and had basically been discarded by the, er,

you know, the country community and written off.

- Mm. - And, er...

What was his impression of you, do you think? Did he tell you?

I think he just thought I was crazy.

You know, he really didn't...

I know that he liked that I was

so enthusiastic on his behalf from the beginning.

Er...

But actually, on the way home from his funeral,

a friend of his told me a story and he said,

"I'll always trust Rick because

"he believed in me when I didn't believe in myself."

And I remember it made me cry when he told me that.

Er...

So I just... I saw who he was.

I saw who he was and I saw that he'd given up

and that's probably why the music wasn't what it could be.

So we spent a lot of time together

and I would just get him to play me music and play me...

You know, "Sit in my living room, play me songs.

"Play me the songs you love.

"Songs you've written, songs you haven't written,

"new songs, old songs, songs you remember when you were..."

He used to pick cotton as a kid.

"Tell me the songs you sang when you were picking cotton.

"Play me a song. What was your favourite blues song?

"Your favourite gospel song?"

You're getting his trust and you're getting to know him through...

Yeah, and I got to learn his taste through that process,

because part of the adventure was to find songs for him

to sing as well, so I wanted to see what were the songs

that resonated with him throughout his life,

er...

as a starting point for looking for songs.

Johnny Cash was a very famously spiritual man, you know,

who had his own relationship with God. Sang about it, talked about it.

You know, I think it was obviously very important to him.

At this point when you were working with him,

had you begun your spiritual journey? Had you begun?

I-I... Luckily, my spiritual journey began when I was very young.

I started meditating when I was 14,

so that has played a tremendous role in my life. It's really formed...

Formed who I am, I think.

They say that meditation in terms of... One of the many benefits of it

is it helps to shut things off, to turn things off.

Without it, would you have had trouble doing that?

Do you have the kind of brain

that becomes obsessive and compulsive about what you're doing?

Absolutely. Yeah, it would be very difficult.

And it also allows you, er...

It builds up the muscle to allow you to focus intently

and look very, very deeply into something.

And, er... So you develop patience.

And patience is really helpful in this process,

in making music and working with artists and...

Was it important to Johnny Cash that you shared in spirituality with him?

That you...

It turned out to be an important factor.

I don't think it was...

On our meeting, it wasn't an important factor and it wasn't...

Our relationship started being about music

and then just the fact that we both were interested in spiritual things

kind of came to light through the relationship and,

I'm sure, deepened our relationship.

You know, one of the great things about being a record producer

and being a music fan and someone who makes taste their living

and their life is you get to build relationships with people that are

ongoing and you get to see them grow.

And one band really springs to mind for me. Can you guess who that is?

Red Hot Chili Peppers. Absolutely.

You know, the Chili Peppers, for me and you,

have experienced an awful lot.

- Absolutely. - When you began working with them,

what were they like?

Well, the first time I met them,

they'd asked me to produce an album two before the one we did.

And I met them...

I went to a rehearsal with Adam Horovitz from the Beastie Boys,

Ad-Rock, and I remember it was a bad vibe.

It was a bad vibe in the room

and you could see that the musicians didn't trust each other.

That was the feeling in the room - mistrust.

And I'd never really been around that before.

It was like a toxic feeling and later,

I learned that it was a drug thing but I didn't know.

I hadn't really been around that. Er...

And then the next time I met them, two years later,

maybe three years later,

they had all gotten sober and it was an entirely different experience.

They were different people. And that was when we started working together.

We made... The first song we made was Blood Sugar Sex Magik.

What a record. Up at the Houdini house?

- Yeah. - Do you still have that?

- Yeah. - Is it haunted?

Er...

No-one really knows.

You hear some stories about that place!

It's true. All that's true. We don't really know.

Weird stuff happens there.

- Great music gets made there. - Absolutely.

More music than we'd ever heard from the Chili Peppers in one sitting

and sides to them that we'd never believe they could ever come up with,

like Breaking The Girl and things like that. Under The Bridge.

Playful moments but also very deep, very heartfelt moments.

At that point, with John still in the band the first time,

firing on all cylinders? Just incredible to work with?

Perfect. They were...peak moment.

And since then, obviously, you've been able to work with them

consistently and John's left, he's come back, he's left again.

That band really are on one of life's

- fullest journeys, aren't they? - Absolutely.

It never goes that smooth for them all the way through,

if you can even define that.

No, they really do, er...

They...

There's tremendous suffering through their process

and it's amazing that they still stand strong. It's unbelievable.

The chemistry between - I'm going to include John in this, even though

he's no longer in the band - those four people

and the additional people that joined the band

through Flea and Chad and Anthony...

How would you, having worked so closely with them,

describe what's unique about their chemistry?

Cos that's the most important thing about being in a band, the flow.

Yeah, they really love each other. They have a brotherly, like...

..love of each other and their passion for music - it goes beyond.

You know, Flea may be the best bass player in the world

and all he does is practise bass.

He's already the best and he's still like... I remember I called him.

I had a great drummer playing here one day and I said,

"Do you want to jam with this drummer?" He's like,

"Oh, I haven't played in a few days. I don't think I'm up to it."

In his mind it's like if he doesn't practise for three hours,

he's not ready to really do it. And, er...

It's that sort of... The dedication to musicianship

and all of the members have dedication to the musicianship

and in Anthony's case, it's just a love of music. Just a real...

And he's a great front man.

- I want to talk about System. - Yeah, great.

Because there's a band that I think a lot of people listening

and watching this will be really interested to know

what it's like working with them, because you've got four characters

in a band - all of them very strong characters -

and the music they make is very strong and very unique.

- Absolutely. - Just talk us through.

Tell us some stories about System Of A Down

and how it's been to work with them.

Yeah. I remember going to see them the first time I went to see them.

They played the Viper Room in LA. It was packed - you know, 200 people.

- Sold out! - Sold out.

And I remember watching the show and just laughing.

I laughed the whole time.

It was the funniest thing I'd ever seen but in a good way.

It wasn't like laughing, like, "What a joke."

It was just so over the top and so extreme and, er...

Like Armenian folk dancing with heavy metal riffs and, er...

you know, wild political lyrics and screaming. It was just...

It was crazy music and...

..usually, heavy music falls...

A lot of heavy music falls into a similar vein. Er...

I'm not going to say it's interchangeable, cos it's not.

But there are certain rules of heavy metal, let's say, that...

Everyone sort of follows those rules.

It's a loyal fanbase and they like... Yeah.

And System Of A Down were a heavy band -

you could say a heavy metal band - who didn't follow those rules.

So they didn't have the rhythms that you'd hear in a typical...

You know, you wouldn't hear a Metallica rhythm.

You'd hear a System Of A Down rhythm, which was different.

# Dun-de-de-der Dun-de-de-der. #

Like different gallops and different, er...

And it's rooted in their Armenian heritage.

So they took elements from folk music and brought that into heavy metal

and I remember at the time, I'd never heard anything like it.

And I can remember people...

While there were those of us who loved them fanatically,

- people hated them. - Yeah.

You know, people hated them. I can remember...

The big radio station in LA is KROQ

and Kevin Weatherly's the programme director of KROQ

and I remember him saying,

"System Of A Down is a band we will never play on our station ever, 100%.

"I don't care what happens - they're not...

"That doesn't fit on our station."

And a year later, it was the number-one band on the station.

- Unbelievable. - Yeah.

- I know... - It's...

They clearly didn't fit but they were so good

that they transcended not fitting.

And those are the artists that I like the best.

Those are my favourite artists, the ones that...

They don't really fit anywhere. They're not another in this mould.

Rage Against The Machine's another great example.

Rage Against The Machine - they don't sound like anyone...

No-one before Rage Against The Machine sounded like them.

And a lot of people didn't like them for that reason. But those are

the revolutionary bands, those are the ones that change the world.

One of those bands, I believe, who have made some remarkable records

and totally gave heavy metal a kick up the arse was Slipknot.

- Yeah, incredible. - That band live are unbelievable.

It doesn't always work out that you see eye to eye with the artist.

You have an incredible track record -

a lot of producers have a much worse one.

How do you feel, then, when sometimes an artist comes out

and is vocal about the process?

Well, it's interesting because if you talk to the Clown,

who's sort of the leader, Shawn, of Slipknot,

he and I are so on the same page, it's unbelievable.

And, er, not everybody in the band felt the same way, which is...

It's all cool.

I still think the album we made's maybe their best album.

I know for me it's their best album. I know a lot of fans really like it.

So I know that, er...

I think Corey didn't like the way we went about doing it.

Well, you hear different rep...

different assessments of your way of working.

I know it's different for everyone. Sometimes you're in the booth,

absolutely hands-on - control room, totally hands-on.

Other times, you'll leave a band to work on their own.

What's the philosophy behind that?

It's whatever's right in that moment for that band

and I don't feel like I want to hold a band's hand through the process.

I want to be there whenever I need to be there to make it better.

If things are going along in a way where...they've got this,

I want to hear them get this, and I want to hear it

and then I'll listen to it after and we talk about it,

"You really got it, or you got it 80% - let's fix this part."

And it just depends.

The parts that I'm always there for is the basic tracking part,

which is where we create this foundation to build on

and to me, that's the key to the whole thing.

Like, if that's right, you can try a lot of different things.

When it comes time to do guitar solos...

..I might not...

Like on an Audioslave record, I might say to Tom Morello,

"Just do a bunch of solos and play me what you've got,"

and then I listen back and it's like, "OK, these five are really great.

"These others are not good enough."

And sometimes it'll just be, "Do more," or sometimes it'll be,

"Let's do 'em together." It's really whatever's needed.

But I give a tremendous...

I trust the artists I work with and I like them

to feel like they're making this thing themselves.

I don't want them to feel like they're making my record.

I want them to feel like this is their record

and to be invested in it in a very personal way. It's different.

And I've had that... Early in my career,

that was a flaw of the way I worked, was that I wanted it my way.

You know? And it led to not good relationships with the early bands

I worked with because it had to be my way and I've learned through,

er, making a lot of records and collaborating

that it can be much better than my way.

I didn't know that in the beginning.

Now I know I have a way but it may not be the best way and I want

to hear everybody else's way,

maybe before I even suggest my way, because...

..member number two's idea is the best idea.

Another thing is, we never try to judge an idea

based on the description of the idea.

We always musically try an idea, which is a pretty important point.

And I can think of a time when I'll say, er,

"You know, the... The bridge in this song isn't good enough.

"Can we write a new part?" And the artist will say,

"Oh, yeah, I have an idea. We could do it like this,"

and they'll give me a description of what it is and it sounds terrible.

The description sounds terrible. "Great, can't wait to hear it."

And then they... And then they do it and it's incredible.

- Yeah. - And the reason is...

..it's very difficult to explain a musical idea.

If I tell you something I'm hearing and I describe it to you, the thing

you hear is going to be completely different than the thing I'm hearing.

So we never rely on that...

The explanation being what it is.

It's always, "Show it to me. Let me hear it." And...

And if it's terrible, do you say, "It's terrible"?

I might. Depends on my relationship with the artist. I mean,

I know that Chad from the Chili Peppers makes jokes about, like,

"We'll be in there and we'll be playing our hardest,

"playing our hearts out, thinking this is the greatest thing we've ever

"done and that we finish the track, we look to Rick and Rick's like..."

THEY CHUCKLE

So it really depends on the nature of the artist.

Some artists really like -

especially bands - like a sarcastic banter.

Humour's important, I think,

especially if you're going to be the bearer of some difficult news.

Sometimes it's good to be able to be playful with it.

Certain artists you have to be very direct with.

You know, it's a delicate thing. It really depends on the artist.

Everyone's different.

Has there been one album in particular that's been really...

that you can think of as being really challenging,

really challenging to see all the way through to the end,

but you're obviously very proud of the result but it was very difficult?

None are coming to mind. If you ask me that again later, maybe it'll...

Maybe it'll come up but offhand, I can't think of any.

If I was looking at a discography, I would probably...

I'm not surprised, cos I looked at your discography this morning again -

- it's insane! - It's a lot of music.

It's insane! And, you know, and...

the diversity of it. I mean, working with Shakira - how was that?

Great. She's amazing.

What made you want to work with Shakira?

I know how talented she is - everyone does - but when you're

dealing with a pop artist, you're kind of guilty by association.

You put Shakira next to the not-so-good pop artists on the radio

and it's hard to shake that perception.

Absolutely. She's unique in that world,

in that she is competing with all these manufactured pop artists

and she's not a manufactured pop artist. Or...

At the time that we got together, she was essentially...

And another artist like this is Lady Gaga,

who is essentially a rock musician,

a singer in a rock band.

That's essentially who they are.

Who write their own songs, know exactly how they want it to be,

have a vision of what they do and they're the artist.

They're not the singer.

Then there are other pop artists who are the singer

and then they get the best track from the producer

and then someone writes good lyrics for them and then they sing it.

Shakira's not like that. Gaga's not like that. They are the artist.

And, er... And I like artists.

Are there artists that got away? I mean, you spoke recently about NWA.

Are there artists you've never worked with that you'd love to work with

or wish you'd had a chance to work with?

I would have loved to have worked with NWA.

I would have loved to, er... Who else?

I loved LCD Soundsystem. Sad they broke up.

That would've been a band I would've loved to make music with.

I thought they were fantastic.

Er... And then, obviously, ones that have passed away.

It'd be good to make a Beatles record.

- Imagine you with Nirvana. - Incredible.

- It would have been unbelievable. - Yeah.

Ever worked with Dave Grohl?

Er...we've been in the studio together.

I don't think that we've actually ever recorded anything together.

I mean, a Rick Rubin Foo Fighters album...

I feel like he may have played on a Tom Petty session we did

but I honestly can't remember.

So the new era of American Recordings,

now you've emerged from being involved with Columbia Records

and you've taken hold of American again...

Yes.

How is it different to the first time around?

I mean, you've changed as a person.

Has much changed in the way you want to make records?

Not really. It's always been the same.

I've always been a record producer, I've always had a label,

I've always looked for things I liked

and just tried to work with artists that I love.

And if they are someone new and available,

I'll sign them and try to make their records as good as we can

and put them out on the label.

And if they're a big artist on a label already,

I'll work with them in that capacity.

Records to look forward to - Ed Sheeran, you did work with him.

- He's great. We're big fans of him. - Fantastic.

- Lovely, lovely guy. - Super-cool guy.

He said that what he really loved about working with you was

that you made it a performance again

and that he felt he'd spent too much time trying to carve the songs

with people and you just put him in a room with a loop pedal and said,

- "Just sing 'em." - Yeah, I...

I saw him play live and I loved him live

and I thought what he's doing is so unique and so original.

And if you took a more traditional track and have him sing on it,

that's not what's good about when you see him live.

And I thought the closer we could get to what makes him him,

the better it would be, and that was the goal for the songs. What...

I don't want to know what the version that sounds good on the radio

sounds like - I want to know what the Ed Sheeran version sounds like.

You know, I want to know... You as an artist - what do you sound like?

And what... What... More...

Maximising what makes him different than everybody else on the radio,

instead of trying to minimise and make him fit.

It's like, I don't want him to fit - I want him to sound like him.

Uniquely him.

That's a performance-based methodology towards producing.

That's what you do. You put people in a room and say,

"Let's get the closest thing to who you are that we can possibly do."

And yet, in this day and age, we're dealing in a very tech-heavy world,

where every single frame of music can be itemised

and broken down and positioned perfectly and everything else.

What is your attitude towards that kind of recording technique,

given that you don't have to do it that way but it exists?

And I love programmed music as well.

I love Kraftwerk. Currently, I love James Blake.

And that's much more machine-driven, and I love it, absolutely love it.

I don't think there's a right or wrong way,

it's really...about each artist.

What is the artist's voice? What's their...?

- When I say "voice, you know what... - Yeah.

What's their sound? What's their trip?

What makes them special? What's unique to them?

And, um...and how can I help bring that out and support that,

as opposed to,

"I have a great idea how to make my version of what they do"?

It's the furthest thing from that.

You said you always wanted to make great music

and business wasn't necessarily the thing that was driving you,

but...in your own way, you've been a businessman, obviously,

and very successful at it

and also worked with large business and large companies,

Columbia Records,

at a time when music was changing

and people were discovering music, enjoying music, treating music...

Give us your insight into where it is

and where you think it might be going -

I know you love to make music,

but it's important that we kinda know.

Yeah, well...I don't think there's any -

much like making music - there's no right way for it to happen

and it's whatever's right for any particular artist.

And, um, there...

I will say, I'm an independent-minded person...

..yet...

..it's...

There are very few examples of totally independent artists

who've had the impact on the world

in the way that artists who have relationships

with big companies and muscle can do.

And my main concern is making the best music

and having anyone who likes it know about it

and have the chance to be part of that.

- Mm. - And, um...

I've not yet seen the independent side

completely be able to take it to that fruition.

Even in the case of Radiohead, they were already on a major label

and they were broken through a major label,

so for them to then leave and do things independently,

it's different.

- They used it as a platform. - Exactly. Um...

For an artist starting, again, there are too few examples -

and even for the best examples you can come up with,

they don't seem to have the same, um...

..cultural significance musically on the world - yet.

Now, again, I'm completely open to it happening.

- I just haven't seen it yet. - Mm.

I've been dying to ask you a question,

I know you'll take it the right way.

Yeah.

- How important...? - That's a scary setup.

RICK LAUGHS Did you see why I sat up like that?

All of a sudden, I've gone from half-asleep,

asking you questions about the Red Hot Chili Peppers,

I'm like, "Rick, I've got a question."

- Um... - "You may not like this one."

No, it's a good one. It's a good one.

How important, apart from the comfort and the way it looks,

has the beard and the way you are been

towards breaking down barriers amongst people?

Certainly, in things like hip-hop

or worlds that you've had to go into and say,

"I'm a fan and I want to make the best record I can,"

and they look at you and go, "Who is this crazy dude right here?"

I couldn't answer that, you'd have to ask the people on the other side,

cos it's not a premeditated thing.

I just decided, when I was in college,

I decided to stop shaving one day and this is what has happened.

It was not a, "I'm going to have this beard and..."

It didn't work like that.

So many of the things the...

So many of the things along the path of my life

have not been choices that I've made,

but things that have...they've really just happened.

I feel like I'm a passenger in this.

You learned to let go early on, as much as you can.

Absolutely.

You live a rich life, man, and I don't mean materially.

- It's just incredible. - Unbelievable. Can't believe it.

I still can't believe it.

How important does gratitude play a part in that?

100% - we give thanks every day, we do gratitude lists...beautiful.

It's been lovely talking about music with you, man.

Same.

It's been so nice hanging out here and...

I know you've got a session. What are you doing today?

Uh, today, Kanye West is coming in

and we're starting...looking at vocal ideas for things for the next album.

Incredible - well, we can't wait to hear it, as always,

and everything that you do.

- Cool. My pleasure. - Thank you, man.

Thank you so much.

THEY LAUGH You guys happy?

INAUDIBLE

# Go tell that long tongue liar

# Go and tell that midnight rider

# Tell the rambler, the gambler The backbiter

# Tell them that God's gonna cut you down

# Tell them that God's gonna cut you down... #