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'We're living in an age of unprecedented scientific progress. | 0:00:03 | 0:00:07 | |
'Every aspect of our lives | 0:00:10 | 0:00:13 | |
'is shaped by the latest discoveries and innovations. | 0:00:13 | 0:00:16 | |
'For me, science is one of the greatest achievements of humankind - | 0:00:19 | 0:00:23 | |
'a gift given to us by God. | 0:00:23 | 0:00:26 | |
'But there are many who see me as misguided - | 0:00:29 | 0:00:33 | |
'they say my religious faith has become invalid. | 0:00:33 | 0:00:35 | |
'It's an outdated way of thinking that doesn't fit | 0:00:35 | 0:00:40 | |
'in a scientific world of hard evidence and binary logic.' | 0:00:40 | 0:00:44 | |
'There is something insidious about training children to believe things | 0:00:47 | 0:00:52 | |
'for which there's no evidence.' | 0:00:52 | 0:00:53 | |
'Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year, is when we commemorate | 0:00:53 | 0:00:58 | |
'the creation of the universe and its God-given wonders. | 0:00:58 | 0:01:02 | |
'It's a good time to challenge the assumption | 0:01:04 | 0:01:08 | |
'that science and religion cannot co-exist. | 0:01:08 | 0:01:11 | |
'I'm about to meet three non-believing scientists, | 0:01:11 | 0:01:15 | |
'each working at the frontier of scientific discovery. | 0:01:15 | 0:01:20 | |
'A neurologist. | 0:01:20 | 0:01:22 | |
'A theoretical physicist. | 0:01:22 | 0:01:24 | |
'And the evolutionary biologist who leads the scientific war on religion. | 0:01:24 | 0:01:30 | |
'My mission is not to convert - that's not the nature of my faith.' | 0:01:31 | 0:01:36 | |
What I hope to show is that belief in God doesn't require | 0:01:37 | 0:01:42 | |
a suspension of our critical faculties. | 0:01:42 | 0:01:45 | |
And that together, | 0:01:45 | 0:01:47 | |
religion and science CAN make a great partnership. | 0:01:47 | 0:01:51 | |
'For centuries, religion and science stood happily side-by-side, | 0:02:02 | 0:02:08 | |
'but in the last few decades, that relationship has broken down. | 0:02:08 | 0:02:12 | |
'You'd be forgiven for thinking they were never on speaking terms. | 0:02:12 | 0:02:18 | |
'As we face the challenging problems of the 21st century, | 0:02:18 | 0:02:22 | |
'I think we need to reopen the dialogue between science and religion. | 0:02:22 | 0:02:26 | |
'In my latest book, I've written a letter to scientists | 0:02:27 | 0:02:30 | |
'like Richard Dawkins, who use science to argue | 0:02:30 | 0:02:34 | |
'that there is no God.' | 0:02:34 | 0:02:35 | |
Well, I've written it to somebody who believes | 0:02:35 | 0:02:38 | |
that because we live in an age of science, | 0:02:38 | 0:02:41 | |
there's no need for religion any more, | 0:02:41 | 0:02:44 | |
someone who believes that you have to be sad, | 0:02:44 | 0:02:46 | |
mad or bad to believe in God, or practise a religious faith, | 0:02:46 | 0:02:50 | |
that religion is immature, it's primitive, | 0:02:50 | 0:02:54 | |
something that we have no need of, | 0:02:54 | 0:02:57 | |
something that belongs to a bygone age. | 0:02:57 | 0:03:00 | |
I believe that religion is being misrepresented. | 0:03:01 | 0:03:04 | |
In my letter, I hope to show | 0:03:07 | 0:03:09 | |
that religion is about answering questions that science cannot. | 0:03:09 | 0:03:13 | |
It's about...how to live. | 0:03:14 | 0:03:17 | |
What kind of world we want to create. | 0:03:17 | 0:03:19 | |
How we relate to the ultimately unknowable. | 0:03:19 | 0:03:23 | |
Those things are not scientific things. | 0:03:23 | 0:03:26 | |
I want to show them that science and religion CAN work together, | 0:03:28 | 0:03:32 | |
SHOULD work together, because they're actually | 0:03:32 | 0:03:35 | |
two quite different ways of thinking and we need them both. | 0:03:35 | 0:03:40 | |
Science takes things apart to see how they work, | 0:03:40 | 0:03:43 | |
religion puts things together to see what they mean. | 0:03:43 | 0:03:47 | |
But what I believe is about to be put to the test. | 0:03:50 | 0:03:54 | |
I'm about to meet three non-believing scientists. | 0:03:55 | 0:04:00 | |
I don't know what they're going to say | 0:04:00 | 0:04:02 | |
and there are bound to be points on which we differ. | 0:04:02 | 0:04:05 | |
Will I get them to agree | 0:04:07 | 0:04:09 | |
that science and religion need not be opposing forces? | 0:04:09 | 0:04:14 | |
I'm hoping to express my view that God made us in his own image. | 0:04:15 | 0:04:21 | |
He marked us out from other animals by giving us free will, | 0:04:21 | 0:04:24 | |
morality and conscience. | 0:04:24 | 0:04:27 | |
It's precisely these aspects of the human mind | 0:04:29 | 0:04:32 | |
that are under scrutiny by modern neuroscientists. | 0:04:32 | 0:04:36 | |
My first encounter is with | 0:04:38 | 0:04:41 | |
a neuroscientist from Oxford University. | 0:04:41 | 0:04:44 | |
Now is the time when we really need to understand | 0:04:46 | 0:04:48 | |
more than ever before how the brain is working. | 0:04:48 | 0:04:52 | |
Baroness Susan Greenfield has pioneered research | 0:04:52 | 0:04:57 | |
into how the human brain generates consciousness. | 0:04:57 | 0:05:00 | |
How does the objectivity get converted? | 0:05:01 | 0:05:05 | |
How do ordinary old brain cells, ordinary old chemicals, how do they suddenly get | 0:05:05 | 0:05:09 | |
into a scenario where you have this | 0:05:09 | 0:05:10 | |
subjective sensation no-one else can share? It's an impossible | 0:05:10 | 0:05:13 | |
but very exciting issue, | 0:05:13 | 0:05:15 | |
but I think at the moment it's something we can... | 0:05:15 | 0:05:17 | |
think about almost as philosophers... | 0:05:17 | 0:05:20 | |
rather than expect scientists to come along with a tidy little experiment. | 0:05:20 | 0:05:24 | |
'So far, science has been unable to explain how human consciousness is generated, | 0:05:24 | 0:05:29 | |
'or even what it is.' | 0:05:29 | 0:05:31 | |
Science HAS to be impersonal | 0:05:34 | 0:05:36 | |
-and consciousness has to be personal. -Yes. | 0:05:36 | 0:05:39 | |
Aren't we at that point when we reach consciousness | 0:05:39 | 0:05:43 | |
and the self - or what used to be called the soul - | 0:05:43 | 0:05:46 | |
aren't we reaching the very limits of science? | 0:05:46 | 0:05:49 | |
The big problem is not so much that we're saying, "We're scientists | 0:05:49 | 0:05:53 | |
"and we're going to butt out of this." It's more, if I said to you, | 0:05:53 | 0:05:56 | |
"I've discovered, John... I've just discovered how the brain generates consciousness." | 0:05:56 | 0:06:00 | |
What do you expect me to show you? We don't even know. | 0:06:00 | 0:06:03 | |
-No idea. -No, exactly. | 0:06:03 | 0:06:05 | |
See, that's the problem - | 0:06:05 | 0:06:07 | |
until we actually know what kind of answer, what kind of... | 0:06:07 | 0:06:11 | |
thing or solution are we supposed to come up with, | 0:06:11 | 0:06:14 | |
only then can you bring the machinery of scientific method to deal with it. | 0:06:14 | 0:06:17 | |
'Not only is science not able to explain human consciousness, | 0:06:17 | 0:06:21 | |
'it doesn't even know what type of question to ask. | 0:06:21 | 0:06:25 | |
'For me, it's religion, not science, that speaks of choice, freedom | 0:06:25 | 0:06:30 | |
'and responsibility - things that make us human. | 0:06:30 | 0:06:33 | |
'With neuroscience and religion competing over territory, | 0:06:36 | 0:06:40 | |
'Susan's work is at the front line of the battle | 0:06:40 | 0:06:43 | |
'between science and religion.' | 0:06:43 | 0:06:45 | |
So are science and religion destined always to conflict? | 0:06:48 | 0:06:54 | |
Absolutely not, | 0:06:54 | 0:06:55 | |
I really don't think that is doing any service to science. | 0:06:55 | 0:06:59 | |
Science is all about... | 0:06:59 | 0:07:00 | |
having curiosity, having an open mind and challenging EVERYTHING. | 0:07:00 | 0:07:04 | |
Challenging everything. | 0:07:04 | 0:07:06 | |
So my own view is that you can have two seemingly incompatible things, | 0:07:06 | 0:07:09 | |
that explain the same phenomena | 0:07:09 | 0:07:10 | |
and you can do both - you can use both and it doesn't matter. | 0:07:10 | 0:07:13 | |
So as a neuroscientist, | 0:07:13 | 0:07:14 | |
I'm quite happy dealing with the subjective of my friend who is now convinced that God is with him. | 0:07:14 | 0:07:19 | |
At the same time, one can talk about changes in brain connectivity | 0:07:19 | 0:07:23 | |
and how experience leaves its mark on the brain. I don't think that | 0:07:23 | 0:07:26 | |
one has to have both things completely reconciled. | 0:07:26 | 0:07:29 | |
I think you can have the two sides to the same coin - it doesn't invalidate the coin. | 0:07:29 | 0:07:33 | |
Do you think that science might not be the only way of seeing the world? | 0:07:33 | 0:07:38 | |
Might...induce a little bit of humility into science?! | 0:07:38 | 0:07:43 | |
See, science is now the alpha male of the intellectual world. | 0:07:43 | 0:07:47 | |
Religion used to be, and, | 0:07:47 | 0:07:49 | |
heaven help us when religion loses its humility. | 0:07:49 | 0:07:53 | |
Yeah, I remember Michael Faraday, the great scientist, | 0:07:53 | 0:07:56 | |
he had a lovely quote - he said, | 0:07:56 | 0:07:57 | |
"There's nothing quite as frightening as somebody who knows they're right." | 0:07:57 | 0:08:01 | |
I think that sometimes one sees among some scientists | 0:08:01 | 0:08:05 | |
complete intolerance, complete intransigence, | 0:08:05 | 0:08:08 | |
complete conviction that you're right and everyone else is wrong, and what real science is about, | 0:08:08 | 0:08:13 | |
is about having an open mind, a really open mind to things. | 0:08:13 | 0:08:18 | |
My own view is that if you have a very rigid way of approaching... | 0:08:18 | 0:08:22 | |
And this might apply to religion as well, | 0:08:22 | 0:08:25 | |
then perhaps you're not going to progress or have the same insight, | 0:08:25 | 0:08:28 | |
as if you just question everything and as I say, the whole trick | 0:08:28 | 0:08:31 | |
is to ask the question rather than know all the answers. | 0:08:31 | 0:08:33 | |
So would you buy the proposition that religious people | 0:08:33 | 0:08:36 | |
ought to have respect for science | 0:08:36 | 0:08:38 | |
and that scientists ought to have respect for religion? | 0:08:38 | 0:08:41 | |
I would say, that all people ought to have respect for all other people | 0:08:41 | 0:08:45 | |
and I think respect is something, er, that we can't have enough of | 0:08:45 | 0:08:48 | |
and that irrespective of whether you're religious | 0:08:48 | 0:08:51 | |
or scientist, or just a human being, that clearly having respect | 0:08:51 | 0:08:54 | |
for others is a very good starting point in life. | 0:08:54 | 0:08:57 | |
'I find Susan's approach very encouraging. | 0:09:01 | 0:09:05 | |
'For her, science isn't competing with religion. In its quest | 0:09:05 | 0:09:10 | |
'to understand how our minds work, | 0:09:10 | 0:09:12 | |
'neuroscience isn't attempting to replace faith. | 0:09:12 | 0:09:16 | |
'But there is another area of science which some claim | 0:09:18 | 0:09:22 | |
'IS encroaching on religion's territory - | 0:09:22 | 0:09:26 | |
'that it challenges the idea of God the Creator. | 0:09:26 | 0:09:30 | |
'Within the last few years, | 0:09:36 | 0:09:37 | |
'physicists have been making remarkable advances | 0:09:37 | 0:09:40 | |
'in finding scientific explanations for the origins of the universe. | 0:09:40 | 0:09:45 | |
'Just this year, they believe they've discovered the Higgs boson, | 0:09:49 | 0:09:54 | |
'the so-called "God particle".' | 0:09:54 | 0:09:57 | |
This is the particle that explains why all the other particles | 0:09:58 | 0:10:02 | |
are the way they are. And by particles, I mean the very | 0:10:02 | 0:10:05 | |
fundamental building blocks of everything in the universe. | 0:10:05 | 0:10:08 | |
'Professor Jim Al Khalili is at the forefront of transforming | 0:10:11 | 0:10:15 | |
'our understanding of the universe. | 0:10:15 | 0:10:17 | |
'He's also an atheist. | 0:10:17 | 0:10:19 | |
'What will he make of my mission | 0:10:21 | 0:10:23 | |
'to get science and religion to work together?' | 0:10:23 | 0:10:26 | |
Would I be right in thinking that there's a division | 0:10:27 | 0:10:30 | |
of labour here? I mean, religious people are interested in whodunnit | 0:10:30 | 0:10:34 | |
and WHY done it and scientists are interested in HOW done it. | 0:10:34 | 0:10:39 | |
I guess from a scientist's perspective, | 0:10:39 | 0:10:42 | |
a non-religious scientist's perspective, | 0:10:42 | 0:10:44 | |
the why may not be as important as the how, because for me, | 0:10:44 | 0:10:48 | |
the laws of nature, | 0:10:48 | 0:10:50 | |
the laws of physics and the reason the universe is the way it is, | 0:10:50 | 0:10:54 | |
are just there. In religion, you're looking for a reason behind it. | 0:10:54 | 0:10:59 | |
For me, the universe just happens by accident, | 0:10:59 | 0:11:02 | |
it doesn't have meaning or, or purpose, or a need... | 0:11:02 | 0:11:08 | |
for a grand designer. | 0:11:08 | 0:11:10 | |
Do you think that the success of cosmology thus far | 0:11:10 | 0:11:14 | |
in explaining how the universe began | 0:11:14 | 0:11:17 | |
has put religion on the defensive? | 0:11:17 | 0:11:19 | |
To some extent, yes. | 0:11:19 | 0:11:21 | |
I mean, what we've learnt in the last century... You know, | 0:11:21 | 0:11:24 | |
100 years ago, we didn't know that our galaxy was just | 0:11:24 | 0:11:28 | |
one of billions of other galaxies, | 0:11:28 | 0:11:30 | |
we didn't know the extent of the universe of reality, and you know, | 0:11:30 | 0:11:35 | |
when you say science can no longer explain... | 0:11:35 | 0:11:37 | |
Well, that's where religion comes in, | 0:11:37 | 0:11:39 | |
in a naive sense, it's.. This is the extent that science can answer, | 0:11:39 | 0:11:43 | |
and what science has been able to do is push that boundary back. | 0:11:43 | 0:11:48 | |
You know, we are now... | 0:11:48 | 0:11:49 | |
We believe we understand a lot about the Big Bang itself, | 0:11:49 | 0:11:53 | |
and theoretical physicists are even now beginning | 0:11:53 | 0:11:56 | |
to ask the question of whether there was something BEFORE the Big Bang, | 0:11:56 | 0:11:59 | |
that caused our universe to come into existence. | 0:11:59 | 0:12:02 | |
So, | 0:12:02 | 0:12:04 | |
in that area of science, | 0:12:04 | 0:12:06 | |
I do wonder whether religion feels it's on the back foot as it retreats, | 0:12:06 | 0:12:11 | |
as science encroaches on what was religion's territory, | 0:12:11 | 0:12:15 | |
and I guess... How do YOU feel about that? Do you think that's true? | 0:12:15 | 0:12:18 | |
Yeah, I think that there was this view that has been called "God of the gaps". | 0:12:18 | 0:12:24 | |
-Yes. -So God explains whatever science can't explain. | 0:12:24 | 0:12:27 | |
-Right. -And that means that every great advance in science is... | 0:12:27 | 0:12:31 | |
-Squeezes that. -..seen as a retreat for religion. | 0:12:31 | 0:12:35 | |
I think the whole "God of the gaps" theory is crazy | 0:12:35 | 0:12:39 | |
and incompatible with the religion that I believe in - | 0:12:39 | 0:12:42 | |
the religion of the Bible, which is, | 0:12:42 | 0:12:45 | |
that God, creating us in his image, | 0:12:45 | 0:12:48 | |
wanted us to use our critical intelligence | 0:12:48 | 0:12:52 | |
to understand the universe, to understand Creation, | 0:12:52 | 0:12:55 | |
and therefore the more we understand, the more we wonder | 0:12:55 | 0:13:00 | |
at the greatness of God and the universe | 0:13:00 | 0:13:03 | |
and the smallness of us. | 0:13:03 | 0:13:05 | |
So I see every advance for science | 0:13:05 | 0:13:08 | |
as an advance for religion as well. | 0:13:08 | 0:13:11 | |
That, I think, is where | 0:13:11 | 0:13:13 | |
scientists and religious believers come closest together. | 0:13:13 | 0:13:17 | |
We're very small, the universe is very big, and the miracle is | 0:13:17 | 0:13:21 | |
that it's here, we're here and we're beginning to understand it. | 0:13:21 | 0:13:25 | |
I do that all the time. I don't... | 0:13:25 | 0:13:27 | |
I don't praise a higher intelligence, | 0:13:27 | 0:13:30 | |
in the way that you do, but I acknowledge the wonder | 0:13:30 | 0:13:33 | |
of the universe and the way it is the way it is. | 0:13:33 | 0:13:36 | |
I try to understand it, | 0:13:36 | 0:13:38 | |
I know I'm a very, very long way from being able to do that, | 0:13:38 | 0:13:41 | |
but I, I guess like you, daily struggle to understand it. | 0:13:41 | 0:13:45 | |
Despite our conflicting views on how the universe was created, | 0:13:47 | 0:13:52 | |
ultimately, Jim and I are united in our shared awe at its wonder. | 0:13:52 | 0:13:56 | |
'So far I've spoken to non-believing scientists | 0:14:01 | 0:14:04 | |
'who've been prepared to engage in a productive dialogue with me. | 0:14:04 | 0:14:08 | |
'But I'm less certain about the outcome of my next encounter. | 0:14:09 | 0:14:14 | |
'I'm about to meet Britain's most vocal atheist | 0:14:14 | 0:14:17 | |
'and I know I am going to be challenged about the very nature of my faith. | 0:14:17 | 0:14:22 | |
'Richard Dawkins is an evolutionary biologist | 0:14:28 | 0:14:31 | |
'who first made his name 36 years ago with his seminal book, The Selfish Gene. | 0:14:31 | 0:14:37 | |
'Since then, he has achieved worldwide fame for his militant atheism. | 0:14:39 | 0:14:45 | |
'His best-selling book, The God Delusion, | 0:14:45 | 0:14:48 | |
'was a virulent attack on religion. | 0:14:48 | 0:14:51 | |
'For him, the supernatural aspects of religious belief | 0:14:51 | 0:14:56 | |
'are an affront to science.' | 0:14:56 | 0:14:58 | |
We can never say that there definitely is no fairy, er... | 0:14:58 | 0:15:04 | |
and that's the way I feel about God. | 0:15:04 | 0:15:06 | |
God has the same status as fairies. | 0:15:06 | 0:15:09 | |
'It's not my intention to convert Richard Dawkins.' | 0:15:13 | 0:15:16 | |
I just want to see if he's willing to admit | 0:15:16 | 0:15:19 | |
that there's more to life than science | 0:15:19 | 0:15:21 | |
and more to religion than ignorance and superstition. | 0:15:21 | 0:15:25 | |
'We're meeting in the hallowed halls of the Royal Society - | 0:15:28 | 0:15:32 | |
'the institute dedicated to the pursuit of scientific excellence. | 0:15:32 | 0:15:37 | |
'Its motto, "Nullius in verba" - | 0:15:40 | 0:15:43 | |
' "take no-one's word for it" - is at the very heart | 0:15:43 | 0:15:46 | |
'of the discipline of science. | 0:15:46 | 0:15:48 | |
'This could be seen as the opposite of faith, | 0:15:51 | 0:15:55 | |
'but, for me, religion at its best involves asking questions | 0:15:55 | 0:15:59 | |
'and challenging conventional assumptions. | 0:15:59 | 0:16:02 | |
'Will Richard see that we have something in common? | 0:16:06 | 0:16:10 | |
'I've asked him to read a letter he once wrote to his daughter.' | 0:16:10 | 0:16:14 | |
"Dear Juliet, now that you're ten I want to write..." | 0:16:14 | 0:16:17 | |
'It offers her a life lesson about the importance of thinking for yourself. | 0:16:17 | 0:16:22 | |
"Next time somebody tells you something that sounds important, | 0:16:22 | 0:16:25 | |
"think to yourself, 'Is this the kind of thing that people probably know because of evidence | 0:16:25 | 0:16:30 | |
" 'or is it the kind of thing that people | 0:16:30 | 0:16:33 | |
-" 'only believe because of tradition, authority or revelation?' " -Mmm. | 0:16:33 | 0:16:37 | |
"And next time somebody tells you that something is true, | 0:16:37 | 0:16:40 | |
"why not say to them, 'What kind of evidence is there for that?' | 0:16:40 | 0:16:43 | |
"And if they can't give you a good answer, | 0:16:43 | 0:16:46 | |
"I hope you'll think very carefully before you believe a word they say." | 0:16:46 | 0:16:50 | |
She was ten years old at the time and I wanted to do the opposite | 0:16:51 | 0:16:54 | |
of indoctrinate her, I wanted to ask her | 0:16:54 | 0:16:57 | |
-to think for herself. -Mmm. | 0:16:57 | 0:16:59 | |
So, er, what would you say, for instance, about the Jewish tradition? | 0:16:59 | 0:17:04 | |
The first duty of a Jewish parent to a Jewish child | 0:17:04 | 0:17:07 | |
is to teach them to ask questions. | 0:17:07 | 0:17:11 | |
Admirable. | 0:17:11 | 0:17:12 | |
That's exactly what the first duty seems to me should be. | 0:17:12 | 0:17:17 | |
Er, I would hope then that the parent would answer the questions | 0:17:17 | 0:17:20 | |
on the basis of evidence | 0:17:20 | 0:17:23 | |
rather than on the basis of tradition or scripture - | 0:17:23 | 0:17:26 | |
that might be where we differ. | 0:17:26 | 0:17:28 | |
'It is indeed the nature of my religion | 0:17:28 | 0:17:31 | |
'for tradition and scripture to play a central role. | 0:17:31 | 0:17:35 | |
'I believe the Bible records events that actually happened, | 0:17:35 | 0:17:38 | |
'like God talking to Abraham, arguing with him, challenging him. | 0:17:38 | 0:17:42 | |
'God really did intervene in human history.' | 0:17:42 | 0:17:46 | |
You don't really believe that Abraham talked to God | 0:17:47 | 0:17:50 | |
and God bargained with him. | 0:17:50 | 0:17:52 | |
This is some kind of symbolic parable that you're talking about. | 0:17:52 | 0:17:55 | |
It's clearly a parable and the argument between God and Abraham | 0:17:55 | 0:17:59 | |
is God giving Abraham a seminar in how to be a Jewish parent. | 0:17:59 | 0:18:02 | |
Teach your child to argue, teach your child to challenge. | 0:18:02 | 0:18:07 | |
I get the feeling that theologians, whether Jewish or Christian, | 0:18:07 | 0:18:11 | |
almost don't bother to distinguish between that which is symbolic | 0:18:11 | 0:18:17 | |
and that which is literal. | 0:18:17 | 0:18:19 | |
Tell me, when your daughter was ten, | 0:18:19 | 0:18:22 | |
did you teach her theories or tell her stories? | 0:18:22 | 0:18:25 | |
Well, you make a good point which is that there are times | 0:18:25 | 0:18:28 | |
when stories get across a point better than telling it literally. | 0:18:28 | 0:18:34 | |
-And when civilisation was in its childhood... -Yes. | 0:18:34 | 0:18:38 | |
-..you tell it as stories. -Yes, yes, | 0:18:38 | 0:18:40 | |
there's a lot to be said for parables, certainly, | 0:18:40 | 0:18:43 | |
but what I want to know, | 0:18:43 | 0:18:44 | |
and I always want to know this from theologians, Christian or Jewish, | 0:18:44 | 0:18:47 | |
is do you actually think it happened? | 0:18:47 | 0:18:51 | |
Do you actually think that Abraham did truss Isaac on an altar | 0:18:51 | 0:18:55 | |
and then let him off an altar? | 0:18:55 | 0:18:57 | |
I definitely think that something happened | 0:18:57 | 0:19:01 | |
that made Jews value their children | 0:19:01 | 0:19:04 | |
more than in any other civilisation I know. | 0:19:04 | 0:19:07 | |
I really think that God wanted Abraham, | 0:19:07 | 0:19:11 | |
and Jews from that day to this, to know one thing above all others - | 0:19:11 | 0:19:16 | |
don't sacrifice your children. | 0:19:16 | 0:19:18 | |
Virtually every other culture in the ancient world sacrificed its children. | 0:19:18 | 0:19:23 | |
It's entirely admirable that these moral lessons | 0:19:23 | 0:19:27 | |
should become enshrined in the culture of any people, | 0:19:27 | 0:19:31 | |
and it's entirely admirable... | 0:19:31 | 0:19:32 | |
Especially, it seems to have been enshrined in Jewish culture in a very big way. | 0:19:32 | 0:19:37 | |
-Something interesting happened in Jewish history... -Yes. | 0:19:37 | 0:19:39 | |
..which led to these admirable things, | 0:19:39 | 0:19:41 | |
but...I actually care about what's historically true. | 0:19:41 | 0:19:45 | |
So do I. | 0:19:45 | 0:19:46 | |
Yes, but do you think that Abraham really did truss Isaac on an altar? | 0:19:46 | 0:19:51 | |
-I don't... -I want to know whether you think it is literally true? | 0:19:51 | 0:19:54 | |
Well, first of all, I think | 0:19:54 | 0:19:57 | |
that story is a protest against the belief throughout the ancient world, | 0:19:57 | 0:20:02 | |
-that parents own their children. -Yes, indeed. | 0:20:02 | 0:20:04 | |
And I think God is saying, | 0:20:04 | 0:20:06 | |
-"Don't think you own this one." -Yes. -"No Jew owns his or her child. | 0:20:06 | 0:20:11 | |
"They have a life of their own, they have a mind of their own," | 0:20:11 | 0:20:14 | |
and that is what I am reading from all these stories. | 0:20:14 | 0:20:17 | |
These things happened, but they didn't happen as mere facts. | 0:20:17 | 0:20:20 | |
They happened as morally instructive lessons, whose full import we still haven't learnt, | 0:20:20 | 0:20:27 | |
because we are still allowing children to die every single day of malnutrition | 0:20:27 | 0:20:32 | |
in the 21st century. | 0:20:32 | 0:20:35 | |
We're still sacrificing our children. | 0:20:35 | 0:20:37 | |
OK, I thoroughly applaud your statement that parents don't own their children | 0:20:37 | 0:20:41 | |
and I would extend that to we should not as a society make the assumption | 0:20:41 | 0:20:47 | |
that a child belongs to the same religion as its parents, which we virtually all do. | 0:20:47 | 0:20:52 | |
We assume that children will automatically be labelled | 0:20:52 | 0:20:55 | |
with the religion of their parents, and I think that is wicked | 0:20:55 | 0:20:59 | |
and it goes with all the things you've just been saying | 0:20:59 | 0:21:02 | |
about the wickedness of, er, what we do to children. | 0:21:02 | 0:21:05 | |
'It's a point on which Richard and I will never agree. | 0:21:07 | 0:21:11 | |
'For me, we have to give our children an identity, a heritage, | 0:21:11 | 0:21:15 | |
'a story of which they are a part. | 0:21:15 | 0:21:18 | |
'Will Richard have more time for a recent study from Harvard University | 0:21:19 | 0:21:24 | |
'that offers evidence that religion can be a force for good?' | 0:21:24 | 0:21:28 | |
Religious people are more likely than secular people | 0:21:28 | 0:21:32 | |
to give money to charity, er, to do voluntary work, | 0:21:32 | 0:21:36 | |
-to give money to a homeless person... -I've seen... -Would that be evidence? -Yes, it would. | 0:21:36 | 0:21:40 | |
-I mean, I've seen counter evidence to that. -Yeah. -It is disputed. | 0:21:40 | 0:21:45 | |
Even if that were true, it doesn't bear in any way on the truth | 0:21:45 | 0:21:48 | |
of religious claims about the universe, which is what I care about. | 0:21:48 | 0:21:53 | |
You can't say that because I have evidence | 0:21:53 | 0:21:57 | |
that religious people are more likely to give blood or give money to charity, | 0:21:57 | 0:22:01 | |
therefore what they believe about God or the Trinity, | 0:22:01 | 0:22:04 | |
or whatever it might be, is more likely to be true. | 0:22:04 | 0:22:07 | |
It has nothing to do with it. | 0:22:07 | 0:22:09 | |
'Richard Dawkins is renowned for proselytising about the damage religion can do, | 0:22:09 | 0:22:16 | |
'but he's also acknowledged that, in the wrong hands, | 0:22:16 | 0:22:18 | |
'science can be just as terrifying.' | 0:22:18 | 0:22:20 | |
You actually said I think, very wisely and courageously, | 0:22:23 | 0:22:27 | |
that when you take Darwinism and turn it into a social philosophy, | 0:22:27 | 0:22:31 | |
it becomes very dangerous. | 0:22:31 | 0:22:33 | |
It can become very dangerous, and if you take it...especially if you take it in a naive way, | 0:22:33 | 0:22:36 | |
it can become... it can become Nazism. | 0:22:36 | 0:22:40 | |
If we based out politics on a naive interpretation of Darwinism, | 0:22:40 | 0:22:44 | |
we'd be living in a kind of, erm... | 0:22:44 | 0:22:47 | |
-..Darwinian universe... -Yes. -..in which the strong eliminate the weak. | 0:22:47 | 0:22:51 | |
And I've frequently argued against that. | 0:22:51 | 0:22:54 | |
I've frequently said I'm a passionate Darwinian, | 0:22:54 | 0:22:56 | |
when it comes to understanding how we got here, | 0:22:56 | 0:22:59 | |
but I'm a passionate anti-Darwinian | 0:22:59 | 0:23:01 | |
-when it comes to deciding what kind of society we want to live in. -Mmm. | 0:23:01 | 0:23:06 | |
So, erm, I just wonder | 0:23:06 | 0:23:09 | |
since that you say that Darwin is one of the great... | 0:23:09 | 0:23:13 | |
I mean, the greatest scientist in recent centuries, | 0:23:13 | 0:23:17 | |
and at the same time you point out the way that Darwin has been misused, | 0:23:17 | 0:23:23 | |
and you don't let the fact that it's been misused | 0:23:23 | 0:23:26 | |
compromise your admiration for Darwin. | 0:23:26 | 0:23:29 | |
Could you not also understand that in certain ways, | 0:23:29 | 0:23:33 | |
-religion has been misused... -Yes. -..and that that should not compromise | 0:23:33 | 0:23:38 | |
at least some of us admiring and respecting the greatness of the great religions? | 0:23:38 | 0:23:43 | |
Yes, I agree that it has been misused, | 0:23:43 | 0:23:46 | |
I think what I would say, however, is that an unquestioning faith, | 0:23:46 | 0:23:52 | |
and I accept that Judaism is a bit unusual in... | 0:23:52 | 0:23:56 | |
because questioning is favoured, | 0:23:56 | 0:23:58 | |
but an unquestioning faith justifies somebody who says, | 0:23:58 | 0:24:02 | |
"I don't have to argue with you, I don't have to give you my reasons. | 0:24:02 | 0:24:06 | |
"My faith tells me that X is the right thing to do." | 0:24:06 | 0:24:10 | |
Now, if a child is bought up to think that faith trumps evidence, or trumps reason, | 0:24:10 | 0:24:17 | |
then that child could be equipped to do something truly terrible. | 0:24:17 | 0:24:23 | |
This is precisely what I think is the common ground between us. | 0:24:23 | 0:24:28 | |
I don't minimise the differences. | 0:24:28 | 0:24:30 | |
The common ground between us is that you and I are committed | 0:24:30 | 0:24:35 | |
-to question... -Yes. -..to the use of critical intelligence, | 0:24:35 | 0:24:39 | |
to valuing human rights and the dignity of the human person | 0:24:39 | 0:24:43 | |
and you acknowledge that there have been times when science has been misused, | 0:24:43 | 0:24:49 | |
-but the answer to bad science is not no science... -Yes. -..it's good science. -Yes. | 0:24:49 | 0:24:55 | |
And I acknowledge that religion has sometimes been misused, | 0:24:55 | 0:24:59 | |
but I argue that the answer to bad religion is good religion not no religion. | 0:24:59 | 0:25:03 | |
-Yes. -And so even though there is this gap between us, | 0:25:03 | 0:25:07 | |
you are not religious and I am | 0:25:07 | 0:25:09 | |
and I'm not seeking to change you on this, | 0:25:09 | 0:25:12 | |
could we not work together | 0:25:12 | 0:25:14 | |
to value human rights, human dignity, | 0:25:14 | 0:25:18 | |
where we engage in the collaborative pursuit of truth? | 0:25:18 | 0:25:22 | |
Yes, it's clear that we could. | 0:25:22 | 0:25:23 | |
I mean, it's clear that people of goodwill, wherever they're coming from, | 0:25:23 | 0:25:28 | |
could and should work together. | 0:25:28 | 0:25:32 | |
Science can be hideously misused - | 0:25:32 | 0:25:34 | |
indeed if you want to do terrible things, you'd better use science to do it, | 0:25:34 | 0:25:38 | |
because that's the most efficient way to do anything. | 0:25:38 | 0:25:40 | |
'Religion and science have been set up as polar opposites, | 0:25:40 | 0:25:44 | |
'but it appears that Richard Dawkins and I | 0:25:44 | 0:25:47 | |
'might have found a way to work together.' | 0:25:47 | 0:25:50 | |
So, Richard, if I can sum up our conversation, | 0:25:51 | 0:25:54 | |
despite clearly major differences between us, | 0:25:54 | 0:25:58 | |
I think we've found major areas of agreement and commonality - | 0:25:58 | 0:26:03 | |
a respect for truth, openness, | 0:26:03 | 0:26:07 | |
a willingness to question, | 0:26:07 | 0:26:08 | |
and the collaborative pursuit of knowledge for its own sake. | 0:26:08 | 0:26:12 | |
And you've agreed that as we think our way through | 0:26:12 | 0:26:17 | |
the very challenging problems of the 21st century, | 0:26:17 | 0:26:20 | |
a conversation between us might give both of us humility, | 0:26:20 | 0:26:26 | |
but might give both of us a fresh perspective. | 0:26:26 | 0:26:30 | |
Now if we can actually to walk hand in hand towards the future | 0:26:30 | 0:26:34 | |
on that basis, | 0:26:34 | 0:26:36 | |
I think that's a tremendous source for both optimism and hope. | 0:26:36 | 0:26:42 | |
I'll go along with that. Amen to that. | 0:26:42 | 0:26:44 | |
-Thank you. -Thank you very much. | 0:26:46 | 0:26:48 | |
'I feel that we've made a real breakthrough. | 0:26:51 | 0:26:54 | |
'It's the first time I've ever heard Richard be so open | 0:26:54 | 0:26:58 | |
'to my position on science and religion. | 0:26:58 | 0:27:00 | |
'Well, I think that was a bit of an epiphany.' | 0:27:02 | 0:27:05 | |
You know, he met me more than halfway | 0:27:05 | 0:27:08 | |
and I actually felt something of the magic of the power of a conversation - | 0:27:08 | 0:27:13 | |
when two people really open to one another | 0:27:13 | 0:27:18 | |
and that allows each of us to move beyond our normal positions. | 0:27:18 | 0:27:23 | |
I really think that's what happened. | 0:27:23 | 0:27:26 | |
And if it is really so, and I believe it is, | 0:27:26 | 0:27:29 | |
that we do have so much in common, | 0:27:29 | 0:27:31 | |
then that is a very strong argument | 0:27:31 | 0:27:34 | |
for saying that there can be a great partnership between religion and science. | 0:27:34 | 0:27:40 | |
'All too often, science and religion are set up as mutually exclusive, | 0:27:42 | 0:27:48 | |
'but through meeting three non-believing scientists, | 0:27:48 | 0:27:52 | |
'it feels to me that despite our differences, we have much in common. | 0:27:52 | 0:27:57 | |
'And through conversation, | 0:27:58 | 0:28:01 | |
'we may discover we're united in a desire to pursue a common good.' | 0:28:01 | 0:28:05 | |
I see no conflict between religion and science. | 0:28:12 | 0:28:15 | |
Science tells us about the origin of life, | 0:28:15 | 0:28:18 | |
religion tells us about the purpose of life. | 0:28:18 | 0:28:22 | |
Science explains the world that is. | 0:28:22 | 0:28:24 | |
Religion summons us to the world that ought to be. | 0:28:24 | 0:28:29 | |
On Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year, we rededicate ourselves | 0:28:29 | 0:28:33 | |
to the idea that God created us in love and forgiveness, | 0:28:33 | 0:28:38 | |
asking us to love and forgive others. | 0:28:38 | 0:28:41 | |
Add that to science and it equals hope. | 0:28:41 | 0:28:46 | |
Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd | 0:29:04 | 0:29:07 |