Episode 1 Sunday Morning Live

Welcome to Sunday Morning Live. I am Sian Williams, with a show which

gets to the heart and soul of the week's big stories. Coming up today

- Britain is one of the fattest and most unfit places in the world, and

we will be asking whether unhealthy food should cost more. In Iraq, on

the brink of civil war, and amid fears that British jihadist fighters

are returning home to threaten us, do we have a moral duty to

intervene? One was a former City high-flyer, the other was once a

bouncer in a nightclub, but how different is their leadership

style? And we ask June Brown, is she

anything like her EastEnders character Dot Branning?

Before all that, come into our new studio, where we are going to meet

our guests this morning. Good morning, June Brown. How are you?

Tired. We will be speaking to June later. Further up the studio are the

members of our panel this morning. AN Wilson, author of Jesus: A Life,

who spent a year training for the priesthood before turning to

writing. Author of The Good Divorce Guide, Cristina Odone. Former

singer-songwriter Vicky Beeching, also a theologian and blogger.

Finally, Hardeep Singh Kohli, who is on tour, mixing his two loves,

cooking and stand-up. In Manchester for us this morning is Bobby

Friction. How is Manchester this morning? Manchester is beautiful

today. Today, we see the annual Manchester Day parade, with 50,000

people on this parade today. And I will be speaking to some of the

contributors, and also the people on the streets, to find out their

reaction to your debate in the studio. And we want to know what you

think as well. You can comment by phone, text, e-mail or on social

media. Well, yet again there are plans to

make our children's school meals more healthy, and this time, it is

less fruit juice amongst the remedies. But with more than two

thirds of British men and half of all women overweight or obese, is

more radical action needed? Today, a campaign group has called on the

Government to introduce a two tax to help curb obesity. Comedian and chef

Hardeep Singh Kohli wants to go further and tax fast food as well.

Here is his Sunday Stand. Obesity Has Become A National

Obsession. We All Know Someone That Is A Little Bit Tubby, A Little Bit

Porky! But hey, I think we are all being a little bit healthy when it

comes to food, making informed decisions to cut back a little bit

on things which are not good for us. Surely it is all just very

harmless! That needs more cream! But the truth is, we are comfort eating

ourselves into a future of disease, diabetes and death. Listen to this,

a quarter of Britons are now obese. I will say that again - one in four

British people are obese. And the numbers are swelling - like our

bellies. So what has gone wrong? I will tell you - fast food. It is too

cheap, it is too delicious, and it is simply killing us. What is the

solution? You may not like it, but it is a fat tax. Service please!

Listen, I know what you are thinking - we pay enough tax as it is, and

this is the nanny state gone mad. Difficult to disagree with you, but

here is the thing - the free market is not working, we need to do

something to arrest our consumption as a nation of these fatty foods and

sugary drinks. We need to start thinking about them as being as bad

for us as booze, because they are, and cigarettes as well. If you have

got an idea, I would like to hear about it. Enjoy your meal.

That's the question we would like you to answer today - should there

be a fat tax on sugary drinks and fast food?

So, Hardeep Singh Kohli wants a tax on unhealthy food, what do you

think? I think there should definitely be one. In fact, I would

make it illegal to sell this stuff, which is killing people, and costing

the rest of us is an enormous amount of money. How would you do that? We

cannot name these ghastly companies, but we know that they fill every

single high street in Britain with filth and poison, and if they were

selling heroin, we would say it was illegal. But in fact, eating this

kind of food day in and day out and nothing else is more dangerous than

being a heroin addict. So you would take all of the fast food

restaurants of the high street? I would send them all back to America.

I am not talking about pizzas, I am talking about companies which I am

not going to name! A moderate consumption of pizza is OK, and

people should be educated. There are these rather nice pizzas now, it is

just a kind of crust on the outside and lots of salad in the middle,

that is absolutely fine. I think we are alluding to a cousin of somebody

that owns a farm... And he is not the only one. There are other

starchy gentlemen who are purveying poison. Cristina, not just attacks,

but perhaps even banning fast, fatty foods? Absolutely. I think we should

start with the tax. Already in Mexico, you have got a two tax and

they are considering a fat tax, and it is working. Why is it working?

Because of this kind of food becomes too expensive, nobody buys it. Yes,

it is something that will hurt the poor more than the middle class...

Why? Because they are the ones who need to keep the grocery bills down.

That is not factually correct. But ultimately, the people who live off

the NHS, who need the NHS, who use its services, are more likely to be

the low income people. That's just... I disagree with you

fundamentally. The NHS is universal, regardless of class, and it is not

used more by the working class than any other class. It is -

middle-class and wealthy people usually go private. Sorry... But the

important thing about attacks on two and that is... Is that

important thing about attacks on two statistics, or just what happens in

your social set? As far as I know, all of the middle-class people I

support the NHS. They support it but they do not use it. Before we get

into that debate, the issue is, would such attacks be a class issue

it be penalised in some groups more than others? It depends what your

shopping budget is every week. of my friends would have to cut back

on things and it would make a huge difference. But I would challenge

your difference. But I would challenge

not any evidence as yet that it is working. If you look at Denmark,

where they working. If you look at Denmark,

have scrapped it, because it lead to inflation in food prices, and people

started driving over the border to buy food elsewhere. So Denmark has

given us an example of this in practice, and it failed.

given us an example of this in listen to that. Here is the point -

if fast food outlets were just peopled by the working classes, they

would not be on Kensington high street, they would not be on the

Great Western Road, they would not be in Didsbury. Ready-made meals and

so forth, and what we need to do as a nation is to do what our parents

and grandparents did, which is to learn how to cook again. If how to

cook, then you do not get fat, learn how to cook again. If how to

because you cook nice things. It is very patronising to the poor or the

lower classes, whatever you very patronising to the poor or the

call them, to say that they cannot cook. Why shouldn't they, any more

than middle-class people?! Incidentally, I am a middle-class

person who does not belong to a private health scheme and I support

the Health Service. What is the cost of our growing ever more obese,

having more diabetes etc? That cost is taken up by those people who use

the NHS, and unlike you guys, I do know that most of the consumers of

the NHS are likely to be of lower income. That is just not true. And I

just interrupted - if you had a tax which penalised some groups more

than others, you could redistribute it, you could tax those foods which

are not good for you and use the money, rather than giving it to the

Government, to try to subsidise the more healthy foods, might that be an

option? And also then, food production has to change. If people

want to avoid the tax, then they will have to improve the quality of

their ingredients. But there are more practical ways of example,

another store has recently taken a vote on moving confectionery away

from the checkouts, and 65% of people said, yes, these, we want you

to do this to help us. It is about smart choices. That is an important

point just when you go to a supermarket, the sweets and

chocolates and crisps are at toddler level. They are at the eyelevel of a

six-year-old. So, it is not just about a tax, it is about we

educating us in the way we shop, and supermarkets have to get involved.

But may I suggest, the reason we are talking about a tax, and in Mexico,

it is working, is because, what they are saying is, this is toxic. When

we talk about educating people, whether it is in cooking or in

banning fat, we are having to educate people. And nothing sends

out a message as quickly as a government saying, this has to be

taxed because it is bad for you. People may well just get pushed away

to other bad items, like if you tax two, they might get pushed towards

buying fat. Hardeep Singh Kohli, you said, we know that fast food is

cheap and it is delicious. It might be killing us, but you know, that is

quite begin scented to out and buy it, that it tastes really nice!

Well, some of it does, but we need to have a holistic approach to this.

We need to offer alternatives to people. I believe we should license

fast food places. We license pubs and sex shops and gambling places.

We license lots of things. Let's license fast food. There is a scheme

in New York with subsidised greengrocers - how many people see

greengrocers now? This demonisation of the working class, they just want

to eat fast food, is not true. And it is an emotional thing as well,

isn't it? Doesn't a lot of overeating come from what is within

yourself, rather than anything else? In Britain, we look at Nigella

Lawson, and we think, a beautiful Earth mother. You may! But

unfortunately the Americans are not allowed to look at her due to visa

restrictions, which I believe have now been lifted! It is a holistic

approach which is needed. Shepherd 's pie is good comfort food, as are

other staples. I want to head out to Manchester and join Bobby Friction,

who is getting the thoughts of some people. What are they saying? We are

going to go over to these debates, but before we do that, I want to

tell you that the Manchester Day parade, and everything which will be

happening, is starting to wind parade, and everything which will be

action. There are lots of floats appearing out of nowhere, able

dancing in the streets. All of that will kick off in about an hour or

two. First, I am going to come over to Michael, who is a fourth-year

medical student. Talking about a fat tax, you have actually done study on

obesity in children? The results of my study mean you have to target

lots of different aspects of children's lives. Narrow

interventions will not work in getting overweight children to eat

more fruit and vegetables. You don't believe in a fat tax? By itself it

won't work. To get the fat tax to work, it there needs to be other

aspects of it. The money raised from the fat tax needs to sub dice

healthier foods. If the healthier foods are more expensive, people

will keep buying those foods. The fat tax will not work by itself. You

need to used casing along with the fat tax. Without that, people will

not understand why the fat tax is in place. A more holistic approach. You

work with a community group where you teach disadvantaged youngsters

to cook properly. Do you believe in the fat tax? Not really, no. We see

young people from disadvantaged backgrounds, a lot of families maybe

have lost their skills in how to cook. They are going to takeaways,

that's their main source of food. If you put a fat tax on it, it will be

more difficult for people to eat on a low-budget. We take the kids into

the youth club. We teach them how to cook. Teach the difference between

healthy and unhealthy food. So they have the skills to make the choices

and cook their own food. Two reactions from people who know what

they are doing and what they are talking about. I want to go to these

dancers. Keeping fit, dancing, all that brings in the funnelment too.

Ruth, you're a Brazilian dancer. You'll be performing, parading

through the streets. Do you believe in a fat tax? I don't. I believe

more in education. Bringing children up knowing from an early age that

what's good food and what is not good food. It is just punishing

people when it's not necessary. Make good food available and affordable.

That's the better way to do things. What about dancing? That's a

great... I think doing something physical from an early age,

encouraging dance and PE in schools, that's the way. Combining it with

the food. A two-way thing. Back to you Sianment

Thanks to the dancers there. Really interesting points raised there

which I want to pick up with you, Andrew. You are punishing people by

taxing them and narrow interventions won't work. I would utterly agree.

It has to be a holistic approach. It should not just be a tax. But people

who abuse their bodies are costing the rest of us a great deal of

money. They tend to develop diabetes, obesity. They are going to

go into hospital. And I am going to have to pay the bill. I abuse my

body, I smoke cigarettes and drink. Then they need compassion. We need

to care for these people. Look at the emotional, psychological issue

about why they are eating this food. Everybody needs compassion. The

economic reality is the Health Service, most people do use it

regardless of their income bracket, it is paid for by the taxpayer. If

it is full of people who don't need to be there because they've been

eating much all their lives, it is fair to say, hang on, I don't want

you to be eating buckets of fried chicken when you could be eating a

nice vegetable stew. Surely there's a deeper issue than slapping on tax.

Let's deal with the emotional and psychological issues which mean

people overeat. I'd like to make these outlets illegal, then people

would have to major vegetable stews. It sounds like it is turning into a

bit of a them and us debate. Is that fair? People who are moderately

overweight, that does not matter what income bracket they come from,

it can take two or three years off their life being moderately

overweight. We are not talking about people being obese. When I said that

lots of middle class people do not take advantage of the NHS I didn't

mean none of them do. Some don't. What I have discussed with my NHS GP

is the effect on the NHS of having obesity. He said to me that we are

now having to make custom-made had the beds. Custom-made ambulance

stretchers. Custom-made machinery because they can't take the obesity.

Yes, a little fat and plumpness can cut down somebody's life span. But

what we are talking about, Andrew, I agree with you, is the cost to the

NHS. It is tremendous. It is about ?5 million a year. But slapping a

tax on... Actually ?55 million is the latest figure I saw. But in

terms of changing the beds, those kind of things Yes, that's about ?5

million. In hospitals where doctors and nurses are busy, having to chop

off limbs caused by diabetes, ?50 million or more. Let's talk to

Hardeep? We need to wake people up to what's going on. A tax isn't

nearly enough. I believe in licensing, education. I'm in the

process of setting up a free school in East London to teach youngsters

how to cook. Why did we ever get rid of cooking. If I couldn't cook I

would be perennially single. It helps romantically as well as

physically. The question this morning, should there be a fat tax

on sugary drinks and fast food? Remember, you can only vote once. If

you think there should be, text the word vote followed by yes. Or vote,

no. You have about 20 minutes before the vote closes.

Still to come: Greeting the longest day at Stonehenge.

Iraq is in chaos. Fighters of the extremists Isis who want to set up

their own Islamic state in the region are advancing towards the

capital Baghdad. It is thought some 400 British Jihadists have joined

their battle. Yesterday, an aspiring medical student from Cardiff was

identified as being at the centre of a campaign to recruit more

disaffected Muslims here, a campaign which the Prime Minister fears

threatens the safety of all of us. Sunni Muslim extremists now control

large parts of Iraq. They want to overthrow the Government in Baghdad

and create a new independent state in the region. Their military

onslaught comes with a barrage of promotional material on the

internet, including a video which appears to show six fighters,

including a British Muslim, appealing for others to join them.

You who believe answer the call of Allah and his Messenger when he

calls you to what gives you life. What gives you life is Jihad. In

David Cameron is worried about the threat to our security from British

Jihadists coming back here. The number of foreign fighters in that

area, the number of foreign fighters, including those from the

UK, who could try to return to the UK, this is a real threat to our

country. President Obama is also concerned and has sent 300 US

military advisers to Iraq and is considering air strikes too.

Military intervention has been ruled out by Britain. But some argue that

given the UK's role in the invasion of Iraq in 2003, we have a moral

duty to help sort out of the current crisis before it gets any worse.

Joining our panel this morning, Davis Lewin from the think-tank, the

Henry Jackson Society. And Usama Hasan who works with the Quilliam

Foundation which is an anti-extremist organise ace.

Cristina, we are told by the UN civilian deaths in Iraq by the end

of this year will be more than double what they were last year.

Does Britain have a moral duty to go in and sort it out? I feel we have a

moral duty. I feel deep remorse about the 2003 war. I think we are

one of the guilty parties. After us, we left a vacuum that has been

filled by horrible factionalism. But, it is terrifying the thought of

intervening again. We've gotten every intervention so wrong,

including the last one. I just, although I feel guilty, I also am

dreading the thought of following in the Obama footsteps and sending in

300 or 500 or any amount of troops again.

Davis Lewin, do you think intervention more than a decade ago

is responsible for what we are seeing now? We are not guilty about

what's happening there. These people are not butchering each other

because we had a plan that was lacking in certain aspects. It is

totally wrong to premis this in this way. The moral duty is about

protecting the citizens of the UK. What is happening over there with

Isis, you have the linkage of an Al-Qaeda-type army. An offshoot that

got kicked out because of the insanity it promotes. It is linking

up the the state-based he willments of military power. We have to

discuss what form that intervention takes. To say we are not an

interested party and not guilty and should stay out is foolish as far as

our security is concerned. We know the British and American Government

have been thinking about air strikes. But as far as boots on the

ground go, that's highly unlikely. What do you think should happen?

Unfortunately, they are the reality of politics. We saw in the UK what

happened to the Prime Minister over the Syria vote. The wishes of the

people have to be respected. The people do not generally favour these

inter ventions, the President Obama says he can't butt boots on the

ground. There are a lot of different tools in his arsenal that he can

deploy effectively. We should be in support of that working hand in

glove with our American allies across the point who face the same

threats as we do in this. Andrew, do you think Britain has a

moral duty to do something in Iraq and what would that something be in

your book? I share Cristina's idea that we in the West, above all the

Americans but also the British, are partially responsible for this

terrible mayhem. But the reason that public opinion was against

intervention in the Syrian civil war and is broadly against intervention

in Iraq is every single western intervention in the middle east in

the last 50 or 100 years has been utterly disastrous. Therefore,

painful as it is, I would favour absolute non-intervention and I'm

afraid I'd just let them get on with it. Just leave everything alone and

not get involved at all? Have nothing to do with it. Usama, what's

your view? We are partly responsible for this mess. We should not have

gone into Iraq. But once we'd left we should help with national

conciliation. Brutal rule with Saddam and ruling by the Sunnies,ed

Sunnis were sidelined and they are now allying with Isis. They don't

agree on an ideological ground but they are fed up with being

suppressed. We have to promote a proper representative Government in

Iraq. You've three people here saying we are partially responsible

for this. We are not. There is a sectarian movement in the region,

led by the Iraqi Prime Minister, he, after we left, had the choice of

building an inclusive state which could have been a democracy. He

chose to build a sectarian state. It is a Shia Sunni conflict, it is

about ideology rather than any form of grievance? Usama, you went to

fight on foreign soil. Why did you do that? Was it based on a grievance

or what it based on ideology? It was a mixture of ideology. A narrow

extremist Islamic idea then to fight communism. It was experiencing

racism in this country in the eighties. There was a lot more of it

around. The rise of anti-Muslim sentiment in Britain is feeding into

these deluded young men going off to join Isis. We are partly responsible

for this mess. We went into Iraq and when we left we did not have a

proper plan and did not help promote a national unity Government. We've

heard a few senior police officers suggesting, and David Cameron

earlier, there's a real threat to British security here with Jihadists

from this country going overseas to fight and some of them may already

have come back and be posing a threat to our security? That's true.

Past experience shows from the hundreds and thousands who went to

Afghanistan and Bosnia, and after 9/11. Cash her, Somalia, Syria, a

small proportion have got involved in attacks when they came back.

small proportion have got involved in attacks when they came But we're

talking about hundreds. At least that's what a senior anti-terrorist

officer said today. Hundreds of Jihadists. Maybe more went to Bosnia

in the nineties. There was an academic study done which estimated

about 10% of returning foreign fighters get involved in terrorist

actions. Thankfully that's a small percentage but a very serious

threat. Is that even more of a danger with intervention, Cristina?

You are fanning the flames and you have more Jihadists from this

country going out to fight? I think one of the lessons from the

2003 war is that we have tried to impart a Western feeling in Iraq,

and they see us as easy bodies, as medlars, and as infidels. One of the

difficulties for us to accept is that if this goes on, these are

porous wars between countries these days, and the man who is a jihadist

born in Cardiff and goes to Iraq can easily come back with a different

identity... This is not some mystical thing in that way, it is

much more simple than that. There are 40 people, according to the

academic research, that have proven themselves in the organisation they

are in to have been capable of doing the kind of thing which happened to

the World Trade Center. But this is happening within a context, which we

have seen in recent history in relation to the schools debate.

People have come out and said, this is against Muslims or whatever else.

At the same time, the parents of the kids who are dying in Syria are

saying, we did not know anything about that. So, when the police

organises a programme to help these parents, who are the agents of

change in their community, to stop their kids from doing that, other

self appointed spokespeople appear in the media to say something else.

This is about our culture and the way that we integrate and the way

that we set the terms of the debate. But we cannot be seen as

interventionist... These are people that want to kill us. If you live

here, there is no debate about this. Andrew, there is no debate about

it? I find it paradoxical to say that we have a right to intervene in

somebody else's domestic war, we, the West, that we have... Let him

finish. You are saying that we have a duty to interfere in the affairs

of Iraq, but if I am a young man in Cardiff or wherever who cares

passionately about this thing, and is prepared to die for it, as people

were in the 1930s prepared to go to Spain... It is not comparable at

all. There were young men in England who were prepared to die for General

Franco. If General Franco's ideas had been adopted, it would have been

a disaster. Similarly, many young men were prepared to die for the

Communists. Why should young men from Cardiff not go and fight? How

do you stop them going out to fight? By exposing the fact that

they are joining a fascist group. ISIS also wants a fascist,

totalitarian state with beheadings and massacres. As they did in Spain.

Why shouldn't they? Because it is not their fight. I cannot believe

what I am hearing. How do you stop young British Muslims going over to

fight in Syria and Iraq? The problem with these men is, they do not feel

they belong to Britain, they believe their allegiance is to some utopian

idea, some Muslim nation which does not really exist any more, because

we have nationalistic ideas. Communists in the 1930s were

fighting... Yes, there were similarities like that, and this

should be exposed as a fascist ideology. Thank you very much all of

you. And we would like your views, so please get in touch with us on

that debate. Coming up - the Pope met the Archbishop of Canterbury

this week, we compared the leadership style of both men.

First, something new for Sunday Morning Live. We are going to be

delving into the values and beliefs of some well-known faces. My guest

this hello. I enjoying yourself this morning? No, because I cannot hear.

I cannot see very well, either. The camera is practically knocked me

over. I have been trying to follow what is going on. That is why Meijer

has grown, you know. Just teething problems, we will sort it out by

next week! Actually, you can come and join us later on. I am low on

the list here. June Brown, one of Britain's favourite soap stars. That

is what I mean! But am I an intelligent woman, I want to know?!

You are, and you will be on that so friendly to on. As I could not hear

what they were saying, I will probably repeat them all. I will

tell you what, we will have a new debate and we will include you in

it. Just to remind you, if you are not an EastEnders watcher... That

was 27 years ago, and I thought I looked old! My cheeks are still up

on the top of my face, my nose is smaller. I am suddenly longing to be

that woman again! But in ten years' time, you will look back at how you

are now and think, I was gorgeous! We are going to see a little bit of

your character, Dot, a chain-smoking, Bible quoting legend

from EastEnders of the legend of the launderette - have a look. Dot

Branning has been at the very heart of Albert Square for almost 30

years, and from her first appearance on the show in 1985, we were left in

no doubt of her pious nature. Language! Thou shalt not blaspheme.

She is one of the few religious characters in soap operas, with her

strong Christian values being shared by the woman who plays her. June

Brown's performance as the manageress of the launderette has

brought much-needed humour to the BBC soap as well. I am ringing up

about the job advertisement. Mrs Dorothy Cotton. I am currently the

manager of a launderette and I am a neighbourhood watch coordinator...

Dot has had a tough life, struggling to cope with the problems of her son

and other problems. In 2008, a special episode saw Dot record a

message. I know what they are thinking of me. Old battle-axe, why

doesn't she cheer up a bit? But they don't understand! I can't be like

Ethel, I am frightened to show my emotions, I am frightened of letting

anyone in, because every time I do, lose them! The deeply moving solo

performance earned June Brown a BAFTA nomination and secured her

place in soap history. She is saying to me, yes, but I didn't get it! You

should have done, that was an extraordinary performance. If only!

How close do you think you are too Dot, because you are a deeply

religious woman? Well, this is something I have done which I do not

approve of, because I think you should play characters as they are

written, but they do not always write the prey is and the behaviour

of a Christian into it, and I am afraid that I have changed it. --

the prey is. I am afraid that her faith, my faith, has changed her.

She was a kindergarten Christian. I mean, someone who thinks of God as

an old man in the sky. It is difficult to explain, but somebody

who has no real knowledge, they have never really bothered to try. I have

probably never read anything, they have just got an idea that it is

like this, it is pie in the sky when you die, and it isn't. I do have a

very strong faith, yes. So you look at the script and you think, this

has not been written by somebody who understands? I always know it if it

has been written by somebody who is an agnostic or an atheist. You can

tell. Cannot make a choice unless you discover, unless you read about

it, unless you find out, unless you are open-minded. All this business

of war, I thought this was religion and ethics, I am on the wrong

programme! I was about to say how religion is entwined in ethics, you

cannot take one from the other. I was about to quote Edmund Burke, you

know! Go-ahead! Well, he said, the problem with war is that it consumes

the very virtues that you are fighting an injustice, decency and

humanity. In other words, it you cannot help it. If you are a man

working in the fields, looking after your crops and your animals, and you

are thrown into the trenches, and you are killing people, and there

are very few of us who want to kill somebody. There are people. There is

anger that comes up and rejection, but they are very few, compared to

the majority. If you had an accident in a car and you killed somebody,

you would be horrified. It sounds like

you would be horrified. It sounds thinking - has it always been so, or

has your faith ever been questioned? I

has your faith ever been books, and some of them have made me

quite worried about it, but I think it is a force, it is nothing to do

with the person. I think we use Jesus as an intermediary, but God is

not a person, it is a force, a force of love, a force of energy, and it

heals. I cannot put that in Dot. I cannot go around saying that. But

you can! Sorry! What about with Phil Mitchell? I know, I said to him, how

on earth are we going to do this in no I said, I think I will have to

change it. He said, no, just try it as it is. I said, no, thank you. And

I didn't. Praying should be about positives. What you look for, you

will get. We are too negative in prey usually. It is a statement of

faith. If I said to you, here is a letter for Yukon will you post it

for me? You say yes, and I say thank you. I was reading something by

Daniel Sturridge, and when he did his goal, he said, I love you,

Jesus, I thank you for everything! And that is the true way to pray.

How do you think that is interpreted by people, open displays of

Christianity? Our cross that we have to bear now is that we thought

foolish and stupid and unintelligent. So, you will fight to

keep Dot as she is? Yes, because I am 87, and now say what I think. All

those years when I did not say what I thought, and now I say what I

think. If Dot were ever to leave the soap, how should her exit be

handled, do you think? I do not know if they will do it, I will probably

die first, darling. I want to be buried at sea. I do not want people

talking about me. I want a plain, ordinary service, and just to be

dropped at sea. There are two places you can do it in England - off the

Isle of Wight or New Haven. You haven is closest to me. I do not

think you will mind at that stage! I do not mind dying. And I want to be

in a white shroud, I do not want to be dressed up looking like I am

going out to dinner. And I do not want any make-up on. We are going to

have a debate about the Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury in a little

while. Would you come onto the sofa? Now? In a little while. I once

saw a photograph, and it was in Canterbury Cathedral, and it was

where Thomas a Becket was killed, and honest to God - I should not say

that on a Sunday, should I? - and I actually saw a halo around the

Pope's head, I really did. It was there. The Archbishop was a lovely

man, I cannot remember who he was, at the time, and he did not have

one. Join us later on, when we talk about the Pope and the Archbishop of

Canterbury. text as your vote will not count.

Put my vote in now. Stop selling the sugary drink, stop selling the

rubbish you sell. Ask me and I'll tell you how to stay thin. Don't mix

carbohydrates with protein. Pasta, flour and water, bread, no. You will

be lovely like me. Look at her lovely thin figure. Doesn't she look

beautiful this morning. We'll let you know what you've been saying at

the end of the show. At dawn yesterday, thousands of people

gathered at Stonehenge to mark the summer solstice. Among the crowds

are those who are there just for fun. There are others for whom

Stonehenge has a mist cal experience. Our reporter was with

them as they waited for the sun to rise. Thousands gathered for the sun

to rise waiting to see in the longest day of the year. It is.40

am. The crowds have gathered all night. The cheering, drums beating.

There are people here from every walk of life. Daylight comes early.

The moment everyone is waiting for is the sun breaking over the

horizon. The what are you doing here? I'm one of the Stonehenge

druids. It is a celebration of turning of the seasons. Being here

is doing something akin to what our ancestors did 5,000 years ago and

hopefully what our successors will do in 5,000 years time. Reatuning

ourselves. Summer Solities is one of the most important days in the pagan

calendar. As part of the ritual to welcome the sun, she invite everyone

to form a circle and give thanks to the elements. Spirit of the south,

element of fire, hail and welcome. ALL: Hail and welcome.

Not long now. It's just on the horizon. Merry solstice everybody.

I've been many, many years. I feel a great calling to come to the stones.

Our ancestors brought them to remember that without the sun, none

of us would be here. Is there still a place for circles like this for

druids and paganism in 2014? We need communities to come together, be

more informal and more direct. People need to act in relation to

each other, be spontaneous, react to spirituality. As the sun continues

its journey up the sky, the party atmosphere continued. I had a chance

to reflect on an eye-opening experience. Usually when I think of

a religious ceremony, or a spiritual ceremony, it is all scripted from

start to finish. This was absolutely the rhythm of what was happening.

Efforts aid' love you to come for a druids wedding, we jump over

broomsticks and things. It's great fun. I'll be back for that. Easy

does it, I think! We look forward to her jumping over

broomsticks! The Archbishop of Canterbury has

been in roam meeting the Pope. They have their feet firmly under the

table since taking up their roles last year. They've very different

styles and approaches to the challenges they face.

They were enthrowned within a week of each other last year. This week,

Pope Francis and Archbishop we will bitook a step towards building

closer relations between the Anglican and Catholic Churches. Both

leaders seek press attention and comment on a variety of issues from

poverty to big business. Justin we will biwas greeted as a man of God

when he became Archbishop... The Pope even gave a press conference to

a media on a plane journey answering questions about reform and equality.

This week, Pope Francis also announced he's planning to get rid

of the famous Popemobile to bring him closer to the people. This Pope

shows the church and the people are the same thing. We are all the same.

In the 15 months since they took up their roles both men advocated

changes in their churches. Men of change they may be but sometimes

that change can come too quickly. This week, the Archbishop of

Canterbury warned the rise of Twitter and other social media sites

is threatening to kill off quiet reflection. However, both remain

avid Tweeters. The Archbishop has 58,000 followers, the Pope 1.45

million. But both are dwarfed by the Dalai Lama, he has 9 million

followers. Who has best adapted their approach

to the demands of the modern age? Should they stick to prayer rather

than tweeting? Vicky, I want to go to you first. The Archbishop says

instant reactioned reflection. Why does he bore? It is fantastic. The

way you communicate faith is great. You can have amazing theology and

beliefs. If it is not getting through to people in a way they can

understand it is falling on deaf ears. The church can see more

irrelevant. Justin Welsby is using Twitter but saying those heat of the

moment nasty concise thens we might say, which we might not say in

person, you need to step back and reflect. Some things cannot be

condensed into 140 characters. Some arguments over doctrinal and ethics

are better placed overline. He is engaged but asking us to be

cautious. When you look at the two leaders do you think they've

different or similar leadership styles. Pope Francis wears simple

robes, cooks for himself. Is getting rid of the Popemobile. They have

very different jobs. The Archbishop is in an impossible position. Arch

bush app Welsby. He's presiding over a church which is visibly collapsing

and falling apart before our eyes and is declining. Whereas the Pope,

there will always probably be a Pope. He's the leader of a worldwide

church. The two jobs are very different. They are both good,

simple Christian men. I think they are both men of prayer. Though,

incidentally, referring to the fast food debate, one of the first things

the Archbishop of Canterbury did was order pizza to Lambeth Palace. June,

does it matter to you who? It only matters to me if the Archbishop has

Christian values. It is very difficult to be a Christian in a

Protestant. Because we are sneered at. We have to be very, very

tolerant. Sometimes too tolerant. And you lose the values and the

qualities, the truth of the church through that. I'm not expressing

myself very well. But that is what I think. Whereas, it is a different

faith, isn't it. It never really should have been. It is because of

the Tudors, because of Henry. We should really be Catholic. Yes, you

should! And so should we, we have the guilt, we might as well have...

You were educated by Jesuits. Let's have unity on the sofas. Sorry.

Absolutely, all agreeing. Is there agreement when you think about the

sort of tactics that the leaders use to communicate with the faithful,

tweeting? I abhor Twitter, Facebook. I think people should be more

private. I don't understand why they want to tell everything. It is a

good way of communicating. It is a bad way of communicating. We've

heard from our friend and thee lodgeal here. Having to reduce the

dock rat of atonement to 100 sillibles. 140 characters, Andrew.

It is difficult to retweet a full document. If they were only engaged

in tweeting Andrew and June's concerned are right. These are men

of action as well as words. What I love is that... What action? I'm

sorry, Hardeep. Tell me in the last 30 years how the church has changed.

Let's talk about the sexual abuse cases. An apology. Thank you. What's

changed and moved on? That's right? Pretty much nothing. We are talking

about the style rather than Saab stance. Hang on, June. I'm going to

quickly cross to Manchester and get a very quick thought from Bobby

Friction there. The sun's still shining, the

preparations are going on. I'm joined by people who've real

interest in this debate. Fr Tim by Ron. A chaplain. Do you think Pope

Francis is a true radical, especially in terms of his

technology. We'll have to see about his long-term. He posted every

Wednesday when he has a again audience. It is incredible. Most

searched man on Facebook. Most retwisted chargey man on Facebook.

You are' a Syrian from Damascus. The type of person Pope Francis is

trying to reach out. Is he a radical? He is. He is Jesus-like. In

September 2013 he invited the whole world to pray for peace in Syria. He

stopped military intervention by the US in my country. Mark foster,

you're an Evangelical Christian here. We've been talking about the

Archbishop and the Pope. What are your views on them coming together?

It is great. What's amazing about the Archbishop is he's sharing his

real life story. That's what the Christian faith is about. How God

interacts with our stories and our real life.

Thank you. Let me bring you up to date with our text and online vote.

Should there be a fat tax on shoeingry drinks and fast food.

Here's what you told us. Hardeep, surprised? No, I think we

have a community, a commonality. It makes sense as part of the wider

project, holistic approach to improving the state of our nation.

As we are currently constituted. Or at least the health of our nation.

It is more than just health, Cristina. If you eat well, you're

less prone to depression. More likely to spend time with your

family instead of in hospital. Call me oversimplistic. Can I breathe

now? You can breathe now. We will be talking about the substance of both

religions in another programme. I know you feel frustrated it has

finished there. That is it for this morning. Thanks to my guests this

morning'sing. You thanks for your company too. Hope you'll join us

next week. Bye-bye. What's up?

Oi, oi! Hey, Glastonbury.

How you doing?