Episode 5 Sunday Morning Live

Welcome to Sunday Morning Live. Good morning, I'm Sian Williams.

More women in the Cabinet, and the vote for women bishops has been won.

Is it tokenism or a real shift in equality?

Men and women are equal and therefore should have a crack at

equal leadership. As the ground offensive in Gaza

continues, can a peaceful resolution ever be found between Israel

and the Palestinians? Gold for the boy abandoned in care -

athlete Kriss Akabusi tells us And as this year's

Commonwealth Games baton passes to Glasgow, we're there, with the city

on its blocks, ready for the off. Yes, Sian. I'm

in the heart of Glasgow, as the city celebrates the arrival

of the Queen?s baton ready for It would be in George Square at

midday. I will be talking to the people here about some of today's

debates. Today's guests are on the starting

line. Let's meet them. Saleyha Ahsan, an A doctor,

a former Captain in the Royal Army and now presenter of Fast Tales,

the stories behind Ramadan. Peter Hitchens,

columnist for the Mail on Sunday, Ajmal Masroor,

an imam who is currently writing a book about his journeys to

Palestine and the holy land. And Angela Epstein,

who describes herself as a mother, She's a freelance journalist who

writes for The Jewish Chronicle We'd like to know what you think

about today's topics, too. You can comment by phone, text,

email or through Twitter, Phone calls cost up to 5p per

minute from most landlines. Calls from mobiles may

cost considerably more. Texts will be charged

at your standard message rate. In the Government reshuffle,

there were high-profile promotions But it was dismissed as tokenism

by some and the Daily Mail caused a fuss by comparing the line-up to

a Downing Street catwalk. Employment Minister Esther McVey

described as a "thigh-flashing Elsewhere, the focus was on who

would be allowed to wear a cassock. A piece of history was made with

the vote to approve women bishops in the Church of England,

a decision which led to dancing and singing at a meeting of the General

Synod, the Church's governing body. they celebrated with champagne

earlier this week, after the Church of England vote to allow women

bishops. The motion has been carried in all 3 houses. Many couldn't

believe the day had finally come. 27 years... For Amy Powis, the nuclear

it at Shirley in Southampton, it has never been a better time to join the

church. -- the new curate. I was crying with joy. I felt so accepted.

For me, I felt like I finally have access to full leadership in the

church of England. Amy believes that those who disagree with women in

leadership roles should come and see them at work. I know so many people

who are against women in leadership, but they know a women in

leadership and they like how they do it. That is how we are going to

change people's minds, come and see a woman lead and preach. I really

hope and pray that through that you will see that this is their god

ordained calling. For Amy, the recent vote has been about

equality, not about 1 sex being better than the other. Colour-macro

this is not about who is better. We deserve equal chances. As soon as we

stop half of the population being able to access the leadership, that

is not to the detriment of the church, it's to the detriment of the

is not to the detriment of the country. She knows what life in the

church means. Her father is a bigger. My dad is a brilliant vicar.

He had influenced my choices but I will be a very different vicar than

he will. She was ordained and it was a very proud and moving moment. He

feels women bring a lot to leadership roles. 1 of the things

that women are more inclined is to be genuinely interested in others

and listen to what they say rather than just waiting for the next piece

of silence to share their own personal brilliance. Perhaps they

are more collaborative. There is an inclination by women to listen

carefully and care more about what other people think and feel, which

can only be good for leadership. So does the chance of becoming a bishop

appeal to her? I am 3 weeks in, shall we see how it goes!

The views of the newly ordained Amy Powis, now the Reverend Amy Powis.

She clearly sees a bright future ahead.

But what of other women in the Church, state and society?

That's the question for our text and online vote this week.

Text the word VOTE followed by YES or NO to 81771.

Texts will be charged at your standard message rate.

Go online to vote for free at bbc.co.uk/sundaymorninglive.

Terms and conditions can also be found online.

Results will be announced at the end of the show.

Lets talk to Angela 1st. We heard what Reverend Amy was saying. She

said it is a positive move. Something you agree with? Women

bishops does not immediately resonate in my life, but what I

would say, as a woman, I up or anything that smacks of tokenism. We

talked about what make a great leader. -- I hate anything that

smacks of tokenism. If somebody has integrity and experience, wisdom, it

doesn't really matter whether they were born with a womb or not. The

problem in modern society, there is a clamour in every strata for men

and women to be equal. Men and women are not equal, we are different and

that brings different things to the clichedd table. Just because a man

is better equipped to do a role, it doesn't denigrate the role of a

woman, she would be better at something else. I can't understand

the idea of female quotas. How would I know as a woman if I got the job

because I am wearing a skirt or not? Angela seems to think it is

tokenism. Women and men are not equal, she says they are just

different. It boils down to, do you have the right qualities? Sam Hurst

is a year-long commissioning course, the motto is, serve to lead. --

Sandhurst. Do you have leadership qualities to develop and grow? That

is men or women. Throughout history, there have been great leaders,

politically, religiously, in all sorts of domains. Historically. Now,

with the current story about women bishops, I think it's fabulous that

they were even able to bring it to the table, to discuss it, to debate

it. You saw the huge discussions. Are they just paying lip service to

it? With only a 3rd of the clergy women, is it just tokenism? No,

because it is the women themselves who have been driving it. The women

are saying, we feel this is our birthright and they have fought for

it. Therefore, they themselves have felt they have the qualities to

bring forward. Is this a change you can envisage in other religions? I

don't think in is and it is the same. The Christian church has a

hierarchy and it is very important in the structure, in Islamic we all

have a direct relationship with God, you don't have to go to an imam. You

have female imams? Women can be anything they want, and imam is

nothing more than a functional. A Muslim woman could be the leader,

the president, the prime Minister, a theologian. But not leading players?

It is a functional role of leading prayers. It doesn't make any

difference to how close to God you are or not. It is very different. I

agree with Angela about how it should be based on merit rather than

a tick box exercise. If you make a quota, you create a problem. But

there is the other side of the debate, there is not a level playing

field, maybe some positive action is needed to create a level playing

field so that women have the same opportunity as men so they can

compete at the same level and therefore they may have the same

job. Positive action, but of course positive discrimination in this

country is illegal. Peter, is this something you could see happening in

politics? There was a fuss made of the number of female ministers in

the Cabinet with the reshuffle. It's a dead issue, I don't think

anyone argues any more that women are capable of doing almost all of

the jobs that men do. It was resolved decades ago. The question

in the Church of England is a different 1. They could have had

women bishops years ago if the supporters had not been determined

to have a total unconditional surrender from their opponents. He

wanted to grind their faces in the dust and get them to say that they

were wrong. -- they wanted. It is only because they wouldn't do that

that it dragged on for so long. It is slightly wrong to portray the

church as a career. If somebody goes into the ministry, they are

abandoning a career... It is a vocation rather than a career? The

fact that women can become bishops is a matter for dancing and breaking

open bottles of fake champagne... It is never real champagne! It is

absurd to me. It's not about that. If you become a minister, you

shouldn't be harbouring ambitions for higher posts. Most of the people

with higher posts end up feeling rather put upon. It isn't about

that. I am baffled we are still discussing it. What interests me is

that there is still even so a very strong, powerful force behind this

constant portrayal of society as if it was still deeply unequal. Women

are supposed to be blasting their way through a nonexistent glass

ceiling. The only thing which is making a difference is the fact that

women still insist on being the only sex which has children. This alters

their whole lives. This... It seems to me to be so blazingly obvious

that if you bear children you are different from somebody who

doesn't... That doesn't limit your ability... The ability to bear

children does not influence your ability to hold down a job. I didn't

say it did. You think it does. Why do you think it does? To overrule on

the child-bearing thing, but having been there, four times, I would say

that women... We have a doctor who could substantiate the biology of

this, we are physically different. We become a cocktail of boiling

hormones after we become babies. That doesn't make us any less

capable intellectually doing a job but it may completely fracture our

perspective in terms of what we may have wanted before. In terms of

women bishops, we haven't touched on the issue of tradition. In order for

religion to survive, Christianity, is lamb Judaism, we gift tradition

from generation to generation. -- is lamb. We have to be respectful of

tradition. Would you like the Queen to wear a pair of trousers at the

State opening of Parliament? Would it bother you? I think it would.

There is no clamour in Orthodox Judaism for women to become rabbis,

and women are lauded in Orthodox Judaism. Hello, Alison in Glasgow. I

am joined by the only female taxi driver, female Asian taxi driver in

Glasgow. Do you think his Mrs would benefit from having more female taxi

drivers? Definitely, women feel more comfortable. As soon as they jump in

the taxi, they are very happy. They sit in the back and they say they

are more comfortable and happy, feeling safer. I would like women to

pick us up at night, they say to me. They feel more comfortable.

Definitely. It is a very male dominated environment. What about

male taxi drivers' reaction to you? Some of them just look at me,

smile, drive off. Some of them won't acknowledge me. Some have said they

are proud of what I am doing, hats off to you, and that is really good.

I am joined by the founder of a Mum 's website, Mindful Mums. What is

your thought on how society values women who stay at home? I don't like

the term stay at home, women looking after children are working, it is a

physically demanding job involves tenacity and patients. I don't think

women at home should feel pressured to go back to work because there are

more women in the Cabinet or because the media says there should be more

women at work. It is an important role and they have an enormous

contribution to society raising the next generation. There are a lot of

working women who would love to be at home with children. It is a very

important role. It is still a dilemma for women? It is, and

economic 1. It is not looking at women in the Cabinet, the media. It

comes down to economics. If you need to pay your mortgage, you have to go

to work. Society needs to value the actual work women do at home looking

after children. Whether that be through remuneration... It's a

different way of looking at it. Women certainly shouldn't feel

pressure and working women really value what they are doing. A lot of

women at home see it as their career, but they have the choice. I

think it's very important that they are valued. More from George Square

later. And world. You have operated in a male environment, because you

were in the military. Did you find that your agenda helped or hindered?

By the time I'd got to Sandhurst, the course was mixed and we were

integrated. There was not a shorter e-mail course in some distant part

of the Academy. We were all doing the same thing. I would not have

gone had it not been that way. In 1996, it was a few years into that

pattern. At the end of the day, you have a task to do and the men were

feeling as well as women on certain tasks. It was if you had the right

tenacity, the right personality, the right target Aleem Maqbool skills to

deal with the task. I can agree with Peter. And would love to get to the

point where we are no longer discussing this, just getting on

with it. It is a shame that in 2014, 100 years ago they were debating

whether women should be doctors. It is almost no half and half in the

profession and predicted to overtake. And that is just down to

you as an individual, whether you are the right person for the job.

Why would love there to be no such thing as the one and only female

taxi driver in Glasgow. Why would like it not to be an issue. But it

still is an issue. And when we are considering women going into the

Cabinet, with the Daily Mail talking about Esther McVeigh sashaying into

Downing Street, her blonde mean Sean thrown back like a shampoo advert,

nobody is talking about her ability to hold down a brief. That was in

the Daily Mail. I'm not surprised. I'm asking Peter, who works for the

Daily Mail. Why work for the Mail. Why work for the Mail on Sunday,

which is a separate newspaper. Is that line typified the media

approach towards women who work in politics? It is certainly what David

Cameron wanted to see in the papers. Is it? Of course it is. He is a PR

man who has gone briefly into politics. He has hired one of the

most skilful PR men in the world, Lynton Crosby, to save his bacon. He

longed to see those pictures. I have no doubt that over the course of

choosing the female members of his government, he thought about their

appearance. Not the faintest question that this was not going

through his mind. And women think about that as well. I have no doubt

that that is what the government want. It is about misogyny. It must

be put a rated from our society once and for all, and women must be paid

for the job they do at home looking after children. Thank you very much.

Our vote is still open. The question, does having women leaders

matter? Remember, you can only vote once. And here are the details. If

you think it does, text the word 'VOTE' followed by 'YES' -- if you

think it doesn't, text 'VOTE' followed by 'NO'. Our text number is

81771. Texts will be charged at the standard rate. You have 20 minutes

before the vote closes. You can also vote online. Results announced in

about five minutes before the end of the programme. Still to come, Kriss

Akabusi on breaking records and that memorable laugh.

the programme. Still to come, Kriss Akabusi on breaking records My word!

I don't believe it! All right! Israel's continuing

its ground operation in the Gaza Strip this morning against

the Palestinian group Hamas. 300 Palestinians -

most of them civilians - have died. Five Israeli soldiers have also

died. Israel says it has

a right to defend itself against Hamas rockets - something

President Obama backed yesterday. Now the UN Secretary General Ban Ki

Moon is there, trying to mediate between the two sides, end the

violence and find a way forward. Israel says military action on the

ground is aimed at destroying the network of tunnels used by Hamas to

attack and infiltrate the country. The action follows ten days of air

strikes and the Israeli Prime Minister says there will be a

significant expansion to the latest offensive. Inflation back --

TRANSLATION: My instruction to the army, with the approval of the

security cabinet, is to prepare for a possibility of a significant

widening of the ground operation. The chief of staff is prepared

accordingly. Hamas says that Israel will pay a high price for its

actions and one Palestinian father who lost a child rejected the

Israeli leadership statement that they are not targeting civilians.

TRANSLATION: Is he going to compensate us for our children? Will

he bring them back? He gives orders to his army with his right hand and

offers peace with his left hand. There is bitterness in Israel, too.

This is the funeral of a man who died in a mortar attack. Attempts to

broker a permanent cease-fire has so far failed with claim and

counterclaim on both sides. The only thing that is certain is that as

long as the conflict continues, there will be more grief and

casualties. Philip Hammond has been talking about the crisis in Gaza.

Speaking on the Andrew Marr programme just a few moments ago, he

said that all sides needed to work together to achieve a long-term

solution. We cannot deal with Gaza by having a flare-up every two

years, hundreds of people killed and another cease-fire which then breaks

down two years later. We have to get to the underlying courses and

re-establish the roles of the Palestinian authority and the

government of Gaza, and get some order out of this case. It's a

long-term solution, as he was suggesting, achievable? -- is a

long-term solution. It is not achievable under the current

circumstances with the theology of hatred on both sides. We cannot have

a peaceful solution if we are interested in telling one another.

But look at the crisis. We have 350 Palestinians killed and more than

70% of those are innocent people. More than 70 children killed, four

it's playing football on a beach were targeted by two missiles and

obliterated. It is not an action of anyone who is civilised. As long as

this continues, there will be no peace. The only way we can achieve

Nice in the future is if there is an international broker who is

objective and is not capitulating to the lobby constantly. And if the

Gentiles do not constantly blackmail -- and if the Gentiles are not

Consigli blackmailed for the Holocaust in Europe. You're using

language. Is the problem not when both sides are very emotive

language, that there cannot be any movement towards coming together.

But that is not factually correct. Allow me, if I'm me. It is the

Israeli dream to live peaceably alongside Arab neighbours, but ever

since before the foundation of the state, whenever the Arabs have been

offered a two state solution, partition in 1947, it has been

rejected. Israel has constantly offered to hand back territory, land

it has claimed in combat when it has been attacked. It has been rejected

by the Arabs. Benjamin Netanyahu said this week that while these

Israelis use missiles to protect their citizens, Hamas uses its

citizens to protect its missiles. It is alive. It is not alive. I have

family in Israel. Don't poke me, please. I'm sorry. When you start

saying it is about the Holocaust, it is not fair. We are not blackmailing

you because of the Holocaust. Holocaust proves that the Jews had

nowhere else that could take them other than a Jewish homeland. That

befuddled the question. The issue is that Israel is not attacking, it is

reacting. Its citizens are arbitrarily subjected to missile

attacks. My son was caught in it. Hamas does not warn before it fires

missiles. Israel warns the citizens of Gaza. Another is a lot of anger

and passion on both sides. It is very important... What we're trying

to do is to say that this is where we are currently. Peter, how do we

get from this level of anger and passion on both sides? How do we

move towards a sustainable peace? These are constant lies. It is

unbelievable. You might do it by neither side seeking at utopian

solution. Both sides recognising that they cannot get everything they

want. There is a strong movement in Israel for compromise and for...

Israel has twice given up large parts of land, and I have no doubt

all, because have travelled there are lot, I have no doubt that there

is a strong desire among individual Arabs for some sort of compromise

but I am afraid that while Israel is open to political discussion, the

Arab world is not. Anyone whose peaks out in favour of calm demise

is rapidly sidelined. I think we have to think more seriously about

abandoning attempts for an ideal solution and obtaining, above all,

it peaceful coexistence on the ground. Much more contact between

Israelis and Arabs, which used to exist before the peace process began

to stop Arabs and Israelis live side-by-side and worked in each

other's territory must talk to each other and knew each other's

languages, watched each other's television and were more in contact.

That has been lost as far as I'm concerned since this catastrophic

attempt at an imposed peace. Peaceful coexistence... Whether...

It needs to be combined with economic advance. There has already

been quite a lot of this. Several of the Arab countries, notably the

United Arab Emirates, have made audible efforts to improve the

living conditions of Gaza. Gaza could be like to buy if it was not

used as a hostage for people who seek political advantage. We need to

start looking for political advantage and if you genuinely care

about the fate of the people, women and children in that area, that is

what you must do. This propaganda has to stop. You have been to the

area as well. Do you agree with what Peter says? Does it need to be taken

from organisations, from international countries trying to

get involved in the peace process? Should go back to the people on the

ground who would like to see a peaceful solution? The way that

things are progressing this year, there was a lasting Heath unity

government that was proposed and we were moving towards that. And then

it always seems that when there... UC clues that people want to talk,

that they are wanting to UC clues that people want to talk,

and then something happens that pushes them together. Watching

harrowing reports this week, when you have taken away someone's

child, when you have destroyed their home, what else have they got to

do? What else can they do except resist? We are talking about... It

is my turn. Yes, there is leadership on the ground, and the people voted

for Hamas. Like it or not, they did. They had a democratic situation and

they voted for Hamas. That is it. Deal with it. Rather than

undermining it and attacking it. Yes, there is the Palestinian

Authority. These two entities have great differences. They have

realised that they do not want people to continue to suffer. I was

out there for six months in 2002 and I really believe in going to

experience the situation yourself before you make opinions. Living in

an environment where there are tanks circling around where you are living

is terrifying. Not knowing where the next shell is coming from, I can see

where the hatred comes from on both sides. Angela, you talked about

having family in the region. Saleyha you talked about having people on

the ground. Ban Ki-Moon is going to be mediating and somehow come up

with... How is he going to do that? We have to remind people about the

history. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and handed over thousands of

greenhouse is... Hang on. Land, sea, surrounding Gaza for so many

years... We are trying to look to the future. We are where we are,

right? Without going back for claim and counterclaim... A very nice

attitude to have. How does Ban Ki-Moon mediate between the two

sides? When you have this level of passion and anger? Israel wants to

have a peaceable existence. As Golda Meir famously said, there will only

be peace when the Arabs love their children more than they hate us. We

have to avoid the extremist view. Gaza had an opportunity in 2005 to

be a commercial success and, as Peter said, it became a political

tool. I have family who live near the West Bank. I see Israeli Arabs

mixing with Israelis happily. My late mum was treated in a Jerusalem

hospital by a fabulous Arab doctor... Let me ask Ajmal

Let's try to get something positive out of this debate. Both Saleyha and

you have said that on the ground Palestinians and Israelis can work

together quite happily. They did for hundreds of years. How do we move

from that position on the ground and apply it to society as a whole? If

you ask me bluntly and simply, create one state for all, not two

states. That further exhaust breaks the separation. My own state. I

believe the Jews have all the right to live and exist, but the current

problem is the philosophy that underpins the existence of the

ideals... I have said it before, I would like a third-party broker, not

America... Who would it be? Not Britain or America, they are the

culprits. The Arabs, Jews, the Muslims lived side-by-side before

the of Israel, to me, a third-party, even like someone like Desmond Tutu,

anybody. Nelson Mandela was an amazing man. Get a mediator... A

peaceful person who doesn't have an economic interest or an military

interest in the area. A third-party mediators who doesn't have a

connection with either side. And end of a conflict in which something is

agreed, I don't believe any leader of Israel could agree a deal that

would be acceptable to the Arabs and not be driven from office in Israel

and I don't believe any Arab leader could do likewise. It's not

possible. It's futile. It's 30 years of trying to get an ideal solution

which has led us to this awful position. A colleague of mine, an

Arab-Israeli, as we navigated past the holeable walls of Allah a the

years ago, he said, how I longed for the g'day all days before peace. --

the holeable walls of Rome Allah, he said, how I long for peace. I am a

very strong supporter of the State of Israel's right to exist as a

Jewish state. I utterly condemn the Israeli attack on Gaza. I think it

is futile and wrong. It doesn't defend Israel from Hamas rockets.

That is a very poor taste. Many more Israelis should say to their

government, this is not in any way a defence of Israel. The future of

Israel is not being won in the Borders, it is being won and lost on

television screens. Every time a child dies in Gaza, the case for

Israel is weakened. I agree. Just because there hasn't been a huge

body count in Israel... It would not excuse it if there had. We are not

going into casualty numbers, I would like to end on something we all

agree on, which is what Peter said, on the ground perhaps where the

movement might happen rather than imposition. I saw a lovely picture

today about Israel. There was a demonstration, on one side Israelis

saying, stop the bombing of Gaza, and the other side in support. And

that was in Israel. Wherein the Arab world would you ever see a

demonstration saying, stop the Hamas rockets? If Moses and Mohammed were

alive today, they would embrace as brothers, not fight. Thank you very

much. We have to... This bitterness, this anger, this resentment, this

hatred. I know there is a lot of anger and passion on both sides. I

thank you for the discussion but we have to move on. Still to come: Can

you go fast if you are fasting? Let's turn to a sporting event that

would be very much on Let's turn to a sporting event that

week. On Wednesday, Let's turn to a sporting event that

world will be on Glasgow as the Commonwealth Games begins. The

Queen's baton is going through the streets of Glasgow now. An athlete

who knows the thrill of his crossing the finishing line is Kriss Akabusi.

Let's look back at his life on and off the track. Akabusi is the last

walk back to the blocks. Chris began his international athletic career

more than 40 years ago. He has won 12 medals. In 1990, he cemented his

place as one of the world's best hurdlers taking gold in both the

European Championships and the Commonwealth Games. It's gold one

Akabusi! During his years as an athlete, he said his success was

down to more than ability and training. I am so happy, I thank God

for that. His achievements came after a difficult childhood, much of

it spent in care after being abandoned by his parents when they

returned to Nigeria. He joined the Army at 16 and it wasn't there his

athletic ability was spotted. That led him to individual track success

and gold with the British relay team at the World Championships in 1991

after a heart stopping final stretch. He is fighting back!

Akabusi has made it! Akabusi, gold for Britain. After retiring from

athletics, he became a recognisable face on television, in particular on

the series Record Breakers. He was known for his infectious humour and

We have done it! I think Kriss go.

We have done it! I think Kriss walked here today, rather safer!

Lovely to see you. Thank you. You walked here today, rather safer!

Every time I see you, you laugh. Where do you get that from? But

Sian, when I go back to Nigeria, I see replicas of me all over the

place, sometimes laughing, arms all over the place. I am nothing special

or different in Nigeria, it is just over here in the UK. An energetic

person. Who laughs a lot. We don't have much in this country. You had a

particularly difficult upbringing. I remember talking to you on BBC

breakfast in 2009. You spoke about moving from foster home to foster

home. In some of them, you received some very difficult treatment, you

and your brother went through some hard times. Your life is your life.

I wouldn't want to change any part of it. My mother and father, they

wanted to do the best for me. They were students in this country. At

four, they left me. And my brother. It was part of a fostering

arrangement. They went back to their country of origin. Part and parcel

of a nation-building process. But having gone there, there was a Civil

War and in that Civil War, all of the money that was coming to take

care of us dried up. My brother and I, as you said, a variety of foster

homes. Some word of the best quality. -- some weren't of the best

quality. But I had a wonderful period of time in a children's home

in north London, in Enfield. I am grateful for that. I wonder whether

that was the thing that really helped you move on and changed your

attitude towards life, developed your attitude towards life, which is

unremittingly positive. Well, I have got a brother, he is my junior, we

both went through the same experience. Unfortunately for him,

it didn't turn out very well. I do recognise this nature-nurture

debate, but there was something inside me that helped me see the

positive side of life. Was that faith's you did pray when you are

going through your athletics career. -- was that faith? You did pray

during your athletics career. It was at the Commonwealth Games that I

first picked up the Bible, the new Testament, for myself. Obviously you

have seen it at school. I opened it up and began reading. I met the

person Jesus in there. I was really excited, the book of Mark, it's

vibrant and colourful. I got really drawn into that story. It was a year

later I was in California, name-drop, Roger Black, Derek

Redmond, Daley Thompson, and I rushed down the track and I went,

guys, I met Jesus! Daley he said, Akabusi, you are on drugs! I was

excited about the change it made on my life. Do you still have that

faith? I have faith, but nowhere near what it was in the day. Why?

Life happens to you. You get perspective. Back then, I was very

strict and almost Tony and in my belief. Now I recognise the floors

in me. -- almost Draconian in my belief. Somebody other than myself

is able to take me across to the other side. Is that still God? God

is such a difficult term. I do believe in a being, Alpha, oh mega,

the Northern Star, all of that language. I would call myself an

existentialist. I have got theological faith in that

perspective. I wonder if you were to deliver, I have seen you as a

motivational speaker, if you were to deliver a motivational speech to

those who are now lining up at the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow,

whether they have a faith or no faith, and thinking about the finish

line... What sort of things would you be saying to them? You know what

it is like. First and foremost, these are the days. It's not

tomorrow, it is now. Embrace this moment, passion, pride, can-do

attitude, express yourself in all your glory, you have worked hard for

this moment, don't let it go by, focus on your goal, dream big and

have some fun. It's a great life and it's over like that. All of a

sudden, you are like Akabusi, a fat juicy Wales, just talking about it!

Enjoy it. It's lovely to see you, and you have dressed so wonderfully

for us. I liked your shirt. Just want to show you something from the

past when you were also looking rather lovely. You want to be a

Record Breakers! Thanks very much. You have been voting on our

question, does having women leaders matter? The vote is closing now. We

will bring you the result at the end of the programme. As we have been

talking about the Commonwealth Games, a huge challenge for all

athletes. What about those who are not able to eat or drink during the

day? It's Ramadan, a time for Muslims to spend a month they will

adjust purification and contemplation and they are required

to spend 19 hours of daylight fasting. How boomers limb athletes

prepare for sporting endurance? On of our Parliament -- how do Muslim

athletes prepare for endurance? Here is one of our experts visiting a

gym. A Day on. And people right now, who have been fasting all day. I am

pretty amazed. Where are they getting their energy? Two minutes to

wipe yourselves down. If you want to get some fluids, go for it. If you

are fasting, don't worry, you have a wee while left to go. I've noticed

that even when you said to go and get a drink of water, even those not

fasting do not tend to. It is like at work, people do not eat in front

of us. I have probably not pushed it as hard as I'm normally would

because I have got it in the back of my mind that I have been fasting all

day. But I survived it and do not feel terrible. Ideal refreshed and

not hungry. -- I feel. I feel hot more than thirsty. I feel like I

could really dive into a swimming pool. What of the sports men and

women competing at the highest level when there are medals and national

pride at stake? Do they have to choose between glory and God or

should faith always come first? Angela, it is a tough one. If you

are sincere about your faith, you have to consider the choices that

you make in life. Either you say you're going to have to Coppermine

is your faith and pursue a particular career choice or you will

have to say that you are simply unable to do that because you want

to be a fully practising Muslim, Jew, Christian, whatever will stop

my son is a medical student and irreligious boy, and at some point

he will have to work on Saturdays. He accepts that. He is not going to

not work because he is Jewish. He understands that decision. It is a

simplistic way of saying that if you want to play for United, you have to

wear a red shirt. You cannot say that blue is your favourite colour.

It is unfortunate that Ramadan coincides with the World Cup and the

Commonwealth Games, and I am in admiring of anyone who can follow

Ramadan. In Judaism, we have seven fast days and I do a couple of them.

And that is pretty tough. You have to accept that if you are competing

at that level and considering, as you say, that you are representing

your country, and you are there to win medals, part of the team, is it

fair to compromise that team's chances of success by issuing your

latest beliefs? It was interesting because we were just talking about

your devotion to your faith when you were competing. I wonder whether you

ever thought of not competing on a Sunday? One remembers chariots of

Fire, how he refused to compete on a Sunday and still went on to win

glory. Did it ever strike US something that you would not do? It

did not enter my mind. I was on the same team as Jonathan Edwards, who

was well into faith. He kept Sunday sacrosanct but for me, it was a

false cycle to me. In my experience, I felt that God created me with all

these gifts and abilities and wanted me to go out and to reap where I

have sold, to go out and represent myself and my country and himself to

the best of my glory. So it was a false icon to me, to go out there.

You mentioned religion a couple of times, and it is much more about

religion than it is about the Alpha and Omega. Think God has created us

and knows our story. He knows our gifts. There is no particular one

day. Every day is the Sabbath as far as he's concerned. You are talking

about Saturday and Sunday, but Ramadan is a whole month. I've found

it very interesting that the programme was suggesting that it did

not affect you as much as you perhaps not that it would. Your mind

is probably the thing that holds you back. Couple of months before, you

start to secretly worry about the month. And mentally, you wrap

yourself up, working out how you are going to manage it. I am already

thinking about next year, which is even longer, and we have not got

through this one yet. But once you are in it, you are in it. In my

preparation, I'd just spoke to Michael Mosley about the mental side

of it. And we talked through this. It really is getting control of your

psyche and embracing it. And realising that medically speaking,

from the health aspects of fasting, the other thing about Ramadan is

that you are not doing it individually. There is a whole

collective. I know it falls at the same time as the World Cup, but I

think that is a massive positive because it informed the huge

audience that would not normally have known what Ramadan was. They

might have heard about it at school, but no masses of people know

about it. And I think that is actually a huge motivating driver. I

feel quite proud about it. But you do actually eats? At the end of the

day. For me, I could do that. It doesn't look like it, but I could do

that. I have 19 hours were a mustn't eat, but I can get stuck in 456

hours. Can you drink water? I could do that. When I was an athlete, I

never used to eat in the run-up to the games, because I've I've got

used to drinking, during the day, getting ready for competition, what

happens if you cannot drink? Would you start flapping? I would be like

a camel, do without it. There we go. I will come to you in a second,

because think you will be interested in what happens in Glasgow. Let's

see what Alison has to say. Increasingly busy in George Square

ahead of the baton relay. I'm joined by one of the chaplains at the

Athletes' Village. What are the difficulties that Muslim athletes

face during Ramadan. We have more than a thousand Muslim athletes

fasting this Ramadan and the main difficulty is that in their own

countries, Ramadan finishes quite early, but in Glasgow, it is about

ten o'clock in the evening. Naturally, that is their biggest

difficulty. Is it a straight choice between personal faith and country?

Not really, because the athletes know that God makes it easy for

them. They have a dispensation to fast. If they choose to, they can

class themselves as travellers, which makes it easy for them and

means that they do not need to fast. If they choose to, it is a personal

choice. Josh Taylor, one of the Commonwealth Games boxers from

Scotland, it is obviously an issue for boxers, diet, but how was it to

have the Commonwealth games here? I'm really excited to get in amongst

the buzz and excitement at the village. You competed in London at

2012, and you think this will compare? If it is anything like

London, it will be amazing. I'd boxed in front of 10,000 fans

shouting my name, so if there is going to be 10,000 fans in Scotland,

it is going to be even bigger and better for me. I cannot wait. A gold

medal? Definitely, 100%. And we have a baton Beira. Scott, just about to

carry the baton. How are you feeling? Really cited. All of my

family and friends will be at the cathedral so I am looking forward to

seeing them. And was it a decision to wear the kilt, a big decision? It

was a difficult choice but in the end at the end I'd put a vote on

Facebook and it was a unanimous decision. My friends said, get your

legs out and get the kilt and! Thank you for joining us. That is it from

Glasgow. The baton arrives here at 11:50am. It is all happening here.

It certainly is. The outfit is important. It goes back to where we

started. I want to pick up with that point, that if you are fasting, God

makes it easy. That is what he says. But it must be pretty difficult. If

he says so. I am neither an athlete nor a Muslim but it seems to me that

I would not fancy being an athlete during a long summer where it lasts

for so long. So should concessions be made? I do not think it is

unreasonable. I think the organisers should check when Ramadan is coming

and if it is coming, put it some other time. It puts a very strong

strain on them, and by the nature of the Commonwealth, there are a lot of

Muslims in it who will be affected. The question of, did not know that

you could be let off and say you were a traveller, but I was always

very struck in chariots of Fire by the point that it is God that makes

him fast. He is not going to abandon his face for the sake of one race.

And it always seems to me to be an important act of seriousness which I

respect in anybody. To some extent, high envy Islam. Having the powerful

communal fact of the shared fast witching Christianity is pretty much

done. Lent is so optional it barely exists. Hardly anyone else does it

seriously so it does not make anything like the same impact. I

think we have lost something in that. And it is such an important

event that may organisers should have made concessions. They should

change the time. If we lived in that kind of world, that would be

fabulous. We would all feel that we were on an equal footing but the

fact that it did not meant that we are not going to moan and groan

about it, we will still go out there and be the best that you can be. I'm

marvel -- I'm marvel at the last 16 of the World Cup, the debate and the

discussion around whether Algeria were going to be fasting when they

played Germany. The coach said, any more questions about Ramadan and I

am leaving. That was the focus. During that match, there were some

dispensations brought in about the fact that they were playing in a

World Cup and travelling, but some of the players did still fast. And

the goalkeeper, he was superb. 90 minutes, 0-0. He was fasting and you

saw him breaking his fast during the match. I think it is the spirit of

it. It empowers them. Thank you all. Just a reminder

And Saleyha's programme 'Fast Tales' follows immediately after this show.

You won't see Saleyha or those wrestlers at the Games.

that be surprised by the results? The militant feminist voice is so

strong in this country. No longer are people reading this as a

meritocracy. By the way, I think your address is lovely. An iPhone to

the Daily Mail article was fabulous because we do look at each other's

clothes. The first thing you said was, look at the shirt. It is a

gorgeous colour. Thank you all. It's been a great morning.

Thanks to my guests here in the studio and those who joined

We're taking a short break to make way for the Commonwealth

You can see it all across the BBC and online. Do check the listings.

We will be back on Sunday, August ten. Until then, goodbye. -- August