Episode 8 Sunday Morning Live

Live. Good morning, I'm Sian Williams with the show that gets to

the heart and soul of big stories. Today: Emotional abuse in

relationships could be made a crime. Is the law intruding on privacy? It

would have made it easier for me and made me realise what I was going

through was actually abuse. What will stop young British Muslims

joining Islamic extremists. This struggle, not a struggle of one

religion against another, it is of all people and religions against a

poisonous extremism. We should show resolving in fighting this. Most

Christians are not at church today, is traditional worship opt way out?

-- on the way Also we are at the Green Belt

festival in navrpshire. -- Northamptonshire. Good morning, yes,

well I'm at the Gren belt festival. It is like a Christian Glastonbury.

Of course, it has got space at heart. There will be a mega-Sunday

service later. I will be asking if this is one of the ways of livening

up worship and getting the reactions to the big debate in the studio with

you. Thank you. First, let's meet some of our guests. Robert Winston

is a scientist a doctor, a politician and a presenter. Among

his credit is the Story of candidate develop. Dame Ann Lesley is an

experienced writer and former foreign correspondent, named as one

of most influential journalist of the last 40 years. Polly Neat is

from Women's Aid. And we are joined by a journalist and businessman. We

would like to hear what our guests think and we want to hear what you

think. You can comment through phone text or other social media.

If you're in a relationship and suffering physical abuse, you can

turn to the law. If you're subjected to psychological

turn to the law. If you're subjected considering making emotional harm a

crime too. Some say the law should considering making emotional harm a

keep out of our prooif lives. Other -- private lives, others say it is

needed. This woman was abused by her partner, the comedian Justin Lee

Collins. At the start he was very nice, charming. The first few gifts

he gave me was a nice mobile phone, a smart phone. I thought that is

kind. Then he said, this phone has got a new number. So this is your

new number now. Your life with me now is our fresh start. The past,

all the people you have known in the past are in the past, you're not to

contact anyone you have ever worked with. You're not to contact any of

your friends. This is me and you now versus the world. During her time

with him, she says she felt her personality was being eroded. There

was no part of my life that he didn't have an opinion on, or a

criticism on, of, of you know... He had a method of control for every

part of my life. Anna left him after her father contacted the police. But

she said she found it very difficult. It was so... Brain-washed

me. He had reprogrammed me. I didn't know who I was. I was heartbroken.

But you can't live your life in fear. It just wrecks everything. She

welcomes plans to toughen the law and believes it would make abusers

think twice and give victims the strength to come forward. This law

would have made it easier for me. It would have made me realise what I

was going through. That it was actually abuse F you these laws had

been in place, I would have been more confident to go forward. You

always think, who is going believe me. With these new laws the police

will be able to recognise it and show the Government is supporting

and realising that emotional abuse is really damaging. Really very

damaging. Also that the abuser will maybe think what I'm doing could get

me in massive, massive trouble and also the person being abused, you

know... Will have the confidence to come forward. Anna Lark, what do you

think, should emotional abuse in a relationship be a crime? Text the

word vote followed by yes or no to 81771. You can only vote once. You

can go online to vote for free on the web-site. So how often do you

hear stories like this? All the time. This kind of extreme

controlling behaviour is almost a defining element of domestic

violence. More so than actual physical violence. Victims Thame us

as well that the effects are much more long lasting and damaging than

even the effects of physical violence. It is also dangerous, if

you really have and we are talking about extreme controlling behaviour

that outside of an intimate relationship would be illegal. How

do you define it? It needs to be defined carefully in law, but we are

talking about where one partner controls every aspect of another

partner's life through fear. The use of extreme fear over a period of

time to create control over a partner and what we have, what we

know is that situation it is actually can be more dangerous than

physical violence. If the partner decides to leave, she may end up

seriously injured or dead. The government says the abuse can

encompass, but not limited to psychological, physical ex-sexual

emotional. Do we need a new law? I'm not exactly a libertarian, but I

think slinging endless laws about which don't solve the problem, but

do enrich lawyers and I have a beady feeling about. I don't that it will

help at all. These women, of course it is awful that they're bullied in

this way. But in a sense first you can get divorced as you know. And

you can cite all that. Secondly, I think the whole business of proof,

you just have to watch the Jeremy Kyle programme, where there are all

these women saying he did this that and that and the man says, I didn't.

It is so difficult to prove. Pause you have got one side of the story,

which is the woman's size, it doesn't mean it is true. It may be

true or it may be something internalised in her which may come

not just marriage or partnership, but from her background. It is back

to the definition, that is might be a difficult thing to prove. Are you

in favour Robert? You called me a politician. I'm rather a

Parliamentarian. If there a is law I will be speaking on this. I

sympathise with Polly. It is a serious problem. Nobody's mentioned

men being bullied. But that happens. It can be up to 30%. Yes. But the

difficulty is how you make a law which would cover the injury which

is caused. It will be impossible to see how you can do that. The problem

with bad law is it gets neglected, already physical abuse is a

difficult thing to prove now even when the police get called in. So

how you're going to relevant late -- regulate verbal or psychological

abuse seems difficult. Under existing law there is a crime

covering stalking and harassment and that covers controlling behaviour,

but does not apply to relationships. No, but it could be used to help

people. On the statistics that you were referring, the 30% means 30% of

all domestic abuse victims are men and 16% of men will experience

domestic abuse. This law is criminalising marital dischord and

arguments and every relationship I have been in, either or both of us

could have been locked up under this law. It is ridiculous. If one is

stronger than the other, how do you defend the weaker person and a

psychologically abusive relationship, it is difficult to

leave. I think men are getting sick of being demonised as bullies. Men

as well are bullied. What is moreover bearing than these shrewish

wives who control their husbands. It is like from time imMEP motherial,

women have been -- imMEP morial -- women have been demonised for

nagging. I once bit my husband on the arm and it swelled up so much, I

did you had better go to doctor. The doctor said, well I think, I don't

think Ann's got rabies, but I could have been prosecuted under any of

these things and so could my husband. Because he does control

things. Only if he decided to prosecute. One thing we don't hear

about, dozens of women a year are prosecuted for false rain claims. --

false rape claims. And one thing that is difficult to introduce is

vindictiveness. That is a good point, but I want to talk to Paula,

a barrister who has represented many victims of domestic abuse. Would any

change make a difference to the women you represent? Listening to

your panel, education is the key and the suggestion that this is just

about having a row with your partner is absolutely wrong and insulting to

a number of victims. Secondly, the suggestion that lawyers are going to

become rich off this, I think speaks more about your panel members than

it does about the people who are suffering and I'm sure Polly will

agree. The reality is people are sufficienting and children are

witnessing the -- suffering and children are witnessing the

suffering and clarity is the key. We are not talking about a new law, but

talking about clarity and I want to get across you can already seek

redress from the court if you're suffering from intimidation, what

hasment or pestering. -- harassment or pestering. But what people are

unclear about is how they have the right to seek that redress and what

the Government want to do is expressly state the fact that you

can go and seek redress and that cannot be wrong. When we talk about

torture, OK when the UN charter talks about torture, it talks about

sleep deprivation and isolation and brain-washing. You heard about how

that happens. That is a form of torture. Why is it that we think

that because you're in a relationship with someone that it is

per missable I'm surprised to hear a lawyer speaking like this. That is

the way they do. The question is when you invoke the law you have to

have evidence and the evidence is very difficult. If you have fizz

Dahl a-- physical abuse, you can see sometimes the evidence. With verbal

abuse you don't. Look at what the police do with racial

discrimination, there are placards saying kill the Jews, how do you

prosecute that. How do you prove that you have been emotionally

abused? It is not actually that difficult to do. And as in the case

of many situations, where you're saying you have suffered harm, it

does boil down to one word against the other. That is true. But that is

our job and the job of the judge to get to the facts. What you are

dealing with remember is a course of behaviour. So if we are talking

about somebody who hack locked out of their home with their child for

the 15th time in a month or somebody who has had their credit cards cut

up, or somebody who can't get to their earnings, because they're put

into the bank account of other partner. All these things you could

come provide some proof. The cut up credit card. But with somebody

whether a man or woman coming back home after a late-night and bullying

their partner, that is a much more difficult thing to prove. Without

doubt, but that does not mean there should not be steps taken to protect

someone. What we are talking about here, for example, very obvious, is

threats to kill. People suffer with threats to kill all the time and the

police are able to bring charges in relation to those. Paula, thank you.

We are going to join Nelufar Hedayat at the Greenbelt festival. Yes, I

had two experts here. Natalie Collins, you work closely with the

dressing domestic abuse. Do you think the bill will make a

difference? I think firstly it is important that we understand what

emotional abuse is. People are concerned that acrimonious

relationships will end up with one person being in prison. It is about

one person degrading another person, humiliating them, devaluing them,

isolating them, exploiting them. Currently, those things are not

illegal. It is not illegal to control someone's money. Do you hope

the bill will enforce those? Yes, I think it is a powerful message to

send two is a powerful message to centres this is really serious.

Sarah, you work with women in the criminal justice system, will this

help the victims crimes? It will help the victims and the profile

raising. But we have to stop regarding prison as he answered all

of society's ills. There are range of things like better education,

emotional literacy and looking at the position of women in society

more generally to help address this issue not just incarceration in an

emotionally continent environment trying to fix people are

emotionally. Do you think the victims would have done things

slightly differently? Perhaps. A lot of women I work with have

experienced different forms of abuse in childhood and adult hood and it

is important that they realise that that is not OK. We will be back

later. I want to put the point that was made, we have to stop resorting

to the law, the law doesn't manage to solve all of our ills and it does

not need to be in our lives as much? I think it is right that the law is

only one way of dealing with what is a deep-seated cultural issue. I

think the last speaker that you had from Greenbelt was right when she

said education is key, cultural change is key as well. I think it is

really important we have to do something about the fact that at the

moment, putting it really simply, police officers attending the

domestic environment incident, they will feel they will take no action

unless there is a physical injury. We have had many cases of a police

officer arriving, greeted by a very, very distraught woman, often

not in control of herself and behind her the very calm perpetrator. And

actually, what he then says is, look at this, this is what I have to put

up with, this is what I have to deal with and she is taken off down the

station. This happens quite often. That is because there is not an

understanding of the control and behaviour that lies behind domestic

violence and the fact that that woman could be, with good reason,

absolutely terrified to do anything. Of course you can get divorced, you

can use the system law, but actually, for women who are

vulnerable and are being abused over a number of years, and he simply

have been deprived of all of their external contacts outside that

relationship, and of their own sense of agency, they cannot do those

things that you are saying people can do. They simply cannot. OK. We

will ask our viewers now. Thank you to our guests who have commented on

it. If you want to find out more about the issues we have raised so

far, there are details of organisations which can help on our

website. The vote is open. The question is, should emotional abuse

in a relationship the crime. You can only vote once. If you think it

should, vote followed by the word yes and if you think it should not,

vote with the word no. You have about 20 minutes before the vote

closes. You can vote online as well. Results will be announced before the

end of the programme. Still to come on Sunday Morning Live: Does

religion in Britain need an American make over? There is a place where

you can see the Bible come to life, where is this place? The

award-winning holy land experience in Orlando, Florida.

More on that shortly. First to the story which has dominated the week,

why do some young British Muslims start to hate the country they live

in and what will stop them joining fanatics and turning to violence?

When the American journalist James Foley was beheaded by Islamic State

militants, the video of his death showed a masked man who appeared to

have a London accent. While the authorities try to trace him, the

government is calling on tougher measures to crack down on anyone who

might be peddling so-called hate speech.

But how big is that threat and what can be done to try and stop it?

James Foley's death shocked the world, not only with its barbarity

but also because the killer is thought to be British. The Prime

Minister returned from his holiday early. What we must do is take the

passports of those contemplating travel, to arrest and prosecute

those who take part in extremist violence, to take extremist material

of the Internet and do everything we can to keep our people say. There

has been clamped down on video footage on social media and the

Metropolitan Police have warned that viewing it could be a criminal

offence. The home secretary Theresa May is also looking at ways to ban

extremist organisations and tackle those who seek to radicalise others.

In another recent video released by Islamic State, young British Muslims

were shown urging others to fight. The Muslim Council of Britain now

wants communities across the UK to stop young men being seduced by such

propaganda. It is a subculture which has been developing of this jihadi

coup, where they are being lured into committing these criminal acts

and feeling that this is something where they will be fulfilling the

religious obligations, something they feel is part of the teaching.

This is totally alien to the teaching of Islam. After Lee

Rigby's murder last year, a task force was set up to look at the

strategy of dealing with extremism. Now questions are being asked about

whether anything was really done to tackle it. There are calls for more

than tougher laws. One of the things we need to start addressing is about

having conversations within the UK as well. Why is it that young people

feel attracted to the language of Islamic State for example? While the

debate continues here, there is a worldwide hunt to identify the man

behind the mask, a terrorist, apparently home-grown in Britain.

So, how to stop British Muslims joining the fighting in Iraq and

Syria. We're joined now by the writer and commentator Douglas

Murray who is the associate director of the Henry Jackson Society. Myriam

Francois-Cerrah is a journalist and researcher of political movements

and Shiraz Maher is a research fellow in the study of

radicalisation. How far is this message of fighting for a

caliphate, spreading with Muslim youth? I think the message is quite

fast spread, particularly amongst the young people. But as a message

we have heard for two decades, that there needs to be a caliphate, that

it should be very narrow and fundamentalist. Unfortunately, there

are young people today who are seeing an opportunity to establish

that caliphate in parts of Iraq and Syria who are motivated to try and

be part of this. In this context, it is very important to say, if we look

at people who went out to Syria 18 months ago, when we spoke to them,

we wanted to try and understand their motivation for doing so. Their

primary motivation they said was to help the people, they were worried

about women and children. When we talk to them now, either the same

people or people who are going out recently, that narrative has been

lost. They say we are here to establish an Islamic State, we do

not care what the local people say, the land does not belong to them, it

belongs to God. We are seeing a more hardline callous attitude. Why has

that changed? Part of it is to do with the people going out there.

There is always a certain type of person, the Ed Dunlop logic will

component aside, there is always a certain type of person who relishes

sadism and brutal violence. But this message seems to be getting hold. In

the 1990s there was a lot of talk among extreme fringe groups in the

UK, it seemed like an impossible achievement. They'll win said they

wanted to make a worldwide Islamic State but the announcement that the

Islamic State has been put together, has made what we all

thought was a complete fantasy into a reality which they can join. I

want to read you something that Lord Carey said. He said for too long the

doctrine of multiculturalism has led to immigrants establishing

completely separate communities in our cities. He said he believes that

as the situation that mainstream Muslims find up the problem is, when

we talk about Islam, which Islam? There are so many versions of Islam

and indeed, originally, as Miriam will no because she is a researcher,

originally there was the Koran, it was not suddenly delivered by the

angel Gabriel, it evolved over the years. And in fact, the first great

schism in Islam, which was between Sunni and Shia occurred shortly

after the Prophet's death. Now this is because they all had different

versions of Islam. So this lot, ISIS or whatever they are calling

themselves now, IS, they regard all Shias as infidels and therefore they

must be killed. They do not even consider that they may be Muslims

because they regard them as infidels. And why is that message

being picked up? First of all, one of the reasons ISIS has had such a

success quote unquote in Syria and Iraq, is because they have done it

very fast. They have not waited for words or anything like that. This

means two young chaps who have been wrought up by strict and decent

families here, they feel people are always talking, they are not doing,

and of course, the reason that the Islamic empire spreads so fast

finally after Mohammed's death, was because they believed it was a

message from God that they were doing right. And this is what these

young boys, because they are very retarded... They are following this

message because now they can see there is an Islamic State which is

gaining hold, do you think that is the reason for some time into the

message? I think IS first of all, I do not think we should do the favour

of calling them an Islamic State, that plays into the image. They call

themselves the Islamic State but they do not have one yet. I will

refer to them as IS. It is quite clear when you look at the profile

of many of the young men who had out there, there is what one report

refers to, religious novices. If you look at the first books that were

ordered by the men who were recently convicted, it is Islam for Dummies

and the Koran for Dummies. The Syrian conflict cannot be

underestimated in terms of the motivation. There are a lot of

people who feel extremely frustrated by the Syrian conflict and the

hundreds of thousands of people who have been killed there and the

impotence that many people feel. If you combine that with the situation

in which a number of young people in this country feel disenfranchised,

marginalised. Let's look at the profile of some of these young men.

They are coming from Portsmouth, Cardiff, Aberdeen. They are not

investment bankers from Chelsea, let's face it. These are guys who

are unemployed. USN poverty is drawing them to this message?

Poverty and alienation provides the structural factor which draws them

to radical messages. I agree with you on most things, not everything,

but it is to do with Islam in a sense because Islam was founded by

the sword, let's face it, it really was. It is not to do with Islam. I

am saying it is attracted people who want to do something. Let's have a

bit of clarity. This is not a British problem and it is not an

Islamic problem either. The fact is, if you look at the history of

terrorism, it occurs particularly amongst young people, the Red Army

faction, things which have happened in Cambodia, China, Kashmir again

and again and in Africa at the moment, young boy soldiers. One of

the issues is this is the recruitment of youth at a time when

they are probably most disaffected, most easy to recruit and so Miriam

has a really good point here. It is a question of how you alter that in

your society. I want to bring in a young Muslim man who does support

the caliphate created and he joins us from London. Why do you support

IS. Its not a question of my supporting the caliphate. But

Muslims cherish the Koran and for over 90 years we have been living

without a caliphate and many of the rules of the Koran can't be

implemented. Now you will see many Muslims seeing it as an opportunity

for the Koran to be fully realised and for justice to prevail. You do

that by murdering journalists? There are a lot of lies being pushed out

by the BBC. You believe it is a lie that Christians and Yazidis have

been murdered by Islamic state fighters? It has been exaggerated. I

would say it is the policy of the Islamic state to protect non-Muslim

citizens. But they're doing it. Yes we are seeing a conflict and people

die, we are in the middle of a global war. We are seeing people who

are fighting the Islamic state whether Shia, Sunni or Christian or

whatever. But I think it is very absurd to say that on one hand it is

not allowed for people to defend themselves against brutal air

strikes from America. Why are we not saying British soldiers are being

radicalised to kill Muslims. Were you born here and grew up here? Yes.

With people of all denominations. Why do you hate them so much? As a

Muslim, I would like to see Britain governed by the Shah Ree that, not

because I want to oppress non-Muslims, but it is superior to

democracy. We don't have sharia law, do you still consider yourself

British? I call myself Muslim and I don't identify with British values,

I'm a Muslim first, second and last and I hope one day and I invite all

non-Muslims to embrace Islam and don't believe the lies being pushed

out about the caliphate. Many are not true. We are getting conflicting

reports. I'm going to bring Shiraz in. How do you respond to that? How

many people does he speak for? He represents a tiny minority. The

difference between him and the fighter we see, they're not content

with sitting around in TV studios espousing the opinions, they have

got up and gone and even women have got up and gone. He has had a long

history of kind of radical act vift and -- activism. The people who are

more dangerous are the people who associate with people like him. And

younger. Yes. There is so much distrust in their blood and in

traditional Islamic family, moderate nice people, they don't get an

outetc. They're not supposed to have sex before marriage. It is difficult

to get to a divinely touched Muslim woman who is still a virgin. The

promise of 72 virgins does not exist in the Koran. But we want some

understanding of why some British young Muslims listening to the IS

voice and want to go and fight and what can be done to stop it. Of

course this is a young man issue. Every person in the US and UK who

has been convicted of terrorism-related offences, the

majority are young men. Of course we are dealing with young men. You

can't ignore that for them whether you like it or not, for them an

interpretation of Islam is the reason they're doing it. For us this

the most appalling interpretation of Islam. But it is an interpretation.

That is why although it is more convenient for us to pretend this

has nothing to do with Islam, we have to accept it does for Muslim

and others to fight against this interpretation like people in Isis

and your loony guest. No one is denying there is a misinterpretation

by a fringe group is being spread. No one is denying that. They are. I

think broadly there is an acceptance that an interpretation of Islam is

being used. But the issue is whether that cultural explanation is the

predominant explanation and what we are looking at is what are the

factors which encourage young men to get involved in any sort of crime or

criminality, be it gangs or Jihadism. Those factors tend to be

linked to alienation and poverty. Every young person at some point

feels alienation and most people feel left out at some point. Most

young people at some point. But the question is what are you going to

do. The problem we have is that there is a large number of people

who want to play into that perceived set of grievances. Western foreign

policy, we hear all the time and your loony guest just did it, that

the fact that British forces have been engaged in the Middle East is a

reason for this. In the nineties we didn't get involved in the Balkan,

and then we did. I have never heard one Muslim leader say how grateful

we are to NATO for saving Muslim lives. We have had a debate about

intervention. When we intervene and when we don't. This is not about

intervention and what the roots were, but what we do now to get out

of where we are and what is the best thing to do. Lord Carey said if he

hears those sorts of extremist views, he said take away their

passports. It won't help. He is an excellent man, but that won't make a

difference. I have a huge RMT for your -- respect for your

organisation, but it is worrying if we classify it as a problem with

Islam. Because I think that what we are seeing in Britain so much is

real difference between religious groups, Jews and Muslims are closer

than they have been for a long time in Britain. The risk to community

harmony is serious. That is why we have to deal with some of the other

problems in society. Which must be educate and poverty. We all want to

deal with that. We will talk about the Government's plans to do things

within law and strengthen the law here in a second. I want to go back

to Abu Rumaysah and whether you have thought about handing in your

passport. I gave an interview and I did offer to renounce citizenship.

If a lot of Muslims were offered that you would see a huge migration

to the caliphate. Address him directly. Sorry, well, no you

wouldn't see a mass exodus. You might see... Hang on Let Myriam make

her point. Am not sure this skre man would leave. Would you leave? Of

course. If I had safe passage to the caliphate I would be the first on

the plane. Why don't you? We will do a whip round. And arresting Muslims

and preventing them going. Hang on. There is one point about whether

taking citizenship does help. The key is we don't assist them by

pretending its not our problem and taking aware their citizenship, are

we saying it is not our problem. We need to recognise there are

disaffected members of British society who need to be reinserted

into society. That and poor white boys. The point is what you do now

to try to stop it. What we have seen with IS, which we didn't see in the

past with Al-Qaeda, is an effective use of social media, so the message

is spreading. I want to bring in Ross Frenett from the institute --

institute for dialogue. He is in Glasgow. How effective is that slick

propaganda message that IS are putting forward? : It It be be very

receptive and it is not just IS putting out propaganda, there a lot

of individuals online who are acting as xheer leader -- cheerleaders and

creating content which is stirring -- Steering people to these actions.

We heard David Cameron talk about the issues here. We heard him talk

about taking extremist material off the internet. We haven't heard

enough about putting more positive material on there and creating

counter narratives to undermine the religious justification and to point

out the reality of what the Islamic state are doing and to point out the

reality of what life would be like for these young men over there.

You're getting some nods of agreement. It comes to point about

interventionism and foreign policy. There is a well spring of lies which

are in the media about what this country do and a

are in the media about what this background to seize on that and feel

some kind of added resentment. So we have to make sure that the

narratives of what this country actually does are better got out. Is

it also about Muslims in communities having alouder -- having a louder

voice. We have seen that. If you look back over the ten years there

has been an emergence of grass roots organisations. The issue is and

Douglas touched on it, the way the arguments went before, it was around

the idea of foreign policy and there could be a foreign policy solution.

The Syrian conflict makes it clear there is not a solution on that. The

war in Iraq inflamed a lot of people and we were told that foreign policy

can provoke people into terrorism. But now we have what you could call

the radicalisation by omission, we are being told because we didn't

intervene in Syria, people are being radicalised. Now Muslim groups are

try to having the debate. -- trying to have the debate. But now fit is

an internal debate, Sunni, Shias and that is a very difficult debate for

the government. Now we are going to go to Green belt Festival and Nel

has some guests there. What are they saying. We are going to talk about

them with a professor of sociology of religion. Is this a preventible

issue? It is about young people and religion and the Government has been

trying to, and there have been many solutions. But I think a key point

that is missed is a systematic solution and if you're talking about

young people and religion that has to involve schools. What has

happened to RE in schools is a disaster and it is not taken

seriously. If you equip people with true understanding of what Islam is

you can prevent a lot of misinformation that lies behind some

of is. We are joined by Abdul, you're a journalist and work with

the radical middled way. Are we failing to get to grips with this? I

have been engaged in this since the early nineties when it wasn't

popular. I would say communities have done a lot. There is a lot of

resilience in the communities. The path about strengthen civil society

and the men and women and young people who do incredible work in our

communities and give to Britain, as British citizens, who engage every

day and to strengthen them and their voice and strengthen their capacity

to do good and to work with our friends and those who are in our

communities to do the positive stuff. That is resilience. Thank

you. Food for thought there. Thank you. The guests talking about

strengthening the voice of the positive. And it is about getting

that more positive message through and trying to quieten the negative

stuff. What we tend to do is the thing, because it is so

uncomfortable we don't want to have the discussion. Our societies are

not good at discussing religion and here is a religion we are not used

to and we would rather not discuss it. There are some uncomfortable

things which Muslims have to have that discussion about. We don't help

that process if we say it has nothing to do with the Koran and

Mohammed and nothing to do with Islam. It does a bit. And or a major

bit in some people's beliefs and it is very important not to ignore

that. Only by dealing with that can you take on the extremists,

otherwise a young man like your lunatic guest is likely to have been

told by people there is nothing in the Koran to justify this he finds a

verse that shows behead the unbeliever and he thinks the other

people are lying. We have to take on things to stop that happening. So we

have to hear the voices and challenge them? In the case of

engaging communities, that has to be a balance that is taken between

specifically balancing, this is where I would agree with Douglas,

there is too much onus on the community. There is no single person

who can tell everyone else how they should or shouldn't behave. But at

the same time, as the guest we saw from the radical Middle Way pointed

out, communities have to be part of the solution. To do that, they have

to have trust in the has to be greater cooperation with the police

and secret services. That is where the efforts need to be focused.

Thank you very much all of you for that discussion. Just to bring you

back to our vote this morning, the question was, should a motion abuse

in a relationship be a crime. The vote will close now so do not text

because your vote will not count but you could still be charged.

More than 33 million people in Britain call themselves Christian.

Only around 2 million are church this morning. The numbers have been

declining since the 1950s and as fewer young people go, it is seen as

the preserve of the older and middle-class worshipper. So does

prayer and praise need a make over? Traditional worship is still the

core of church services in Britain. But the Greenbelt festival

celebrating its 40th year has a different approach. Greenbelt is

being staged in the grounds of a stately home in Northamptonshire and

it describes itself as a condition of arts, faith and justice, with

Christianity the thread that binds it altogether. The Pope is

modernising his approach as well by text in encouragement to people.

These Franciscan Friars in New York have gone a stage further, by

accepting prayer requests by text. Interestingly enough, when we

started talking about the idea, people said isn't it cold? If I

asked you face-to-face it would be one thing but these are people who

may not be able to reach anyone who can pray for them so I think it has

opened up a holdall for people. There is a place full of wonder and

excitement and joy. How about this for a different take on the Bible?

It is the Holy Land experience in Florida. A bit over the top or an

ingenious way of drawing people back to religion?

So, would prayer by text and a Christian theme park work here? Amy

Powers has joined us. She is a Church of England curate. Milo is

back and Robert is still here -- Amy Powers. Would that work? We should

reach out to people where they are but I do not think an American theme

park would work for us but let's give it a go. We have been talking

about Islam and the growth of Islam but in terms of Christianity, the

numbers of people who call themselves Christian is falling and

the people who do not have faith is rising. Why is that? There are so

many reasons why as a church we are struggling to reach out to people

who need to hear us and need to hear our message. I think the gospel

message is the same as it has always been that we are struggling to reach

people. It is fascinating to see the growth of Fresh Expressions, so new

ways of church. That is your organisation. It is a new way that

we can reach out to people, anyway being communities. There are

churches in pubs, in cafes, there are people who worship just with a

specific community. I can feel Milo getting frustrated sitting next to

me! Wires that? There is a reason why the Church of England is in

decline and that is because they have lost any authenticity about

faith. The awful guitar and ukelele stuff. The thing about being young

and being interested in religion, you have a finely tuned BS radar.

You can tell what is real. Having the 60s or 70 Road Marxist bishops

reflecting religion with guitars is terrible. -- 60 or 70-year-old. If

you think about the extraordinary experience you get going to Mass at

the Brompton oratory on a Sunday, comparing the Bach cantata to the

awful folk dirges you get. So it demeans religion? I think it does.

It is an important spiritual dimensional the faith. It is a real

shame when it becomes watered down with this terrible music that young

people do not even like. Young people seem to like it at Greenbelt

so we will go to Nel who has some guests with her. Hello, yes. Things

are a bit quieter because the service has started but I am joined

by a reverend Kate Botley. Should religion be more fun and should

praying be more fun? 1-person's fun is another person's boring. I am

wary when people say they want the service to be more fun because

they're fun might not be what my fun looks like. I think church needs to

be more honest and we need to think about more authenticity. Your church

is more fun, isn't it? But never as a result of trying to be fun. When

churches try you get abominations like clown ministry. It is awkward.

When you meet someone who says I like to have fun generally they will

be awkward and miserable. How will you attract people who are

interested? Half of my parish are young adults but it was not a cos I

was trying to attract young people. I am just me as a pastor. I am the

same person so they have that trust. There is nothing worse than

forced funny churches. It is like dad dancing. It is clumsy and

awkward. What helps is making people feel welcome and part of the

community. It could be traditional hymns or a happy crabby chorus. We

have a couple of young people here who have been at the festival. Who

have we got? My name is Nicky. What have you been getting up to? Can

church be fun? We have been seeing bands and singers and going to

different worship. Church can definitely be fun. How do you think

it can be fun? I think it can be fun because you get to meet lots of new

friends at places like this. Do you think churches should try harder to

be more fun? I think you should involve more fun into church. There

is definitely a more quiet pensive atmosphere at the moment but the

bands and music will be kicking off later. That is all from the

Greenbelt. Back to you, Sian. Thank you, lots of uses of the word

fun. Does it matter if you are in church or out of church? I am not a

Christian, I am a Jew. Judaism is probably not diminishing in

attendance much. We have had the -- in fact, the Orthodox community is

increasing, not just in this country but more widely as well. There is a

wonderful book published in the 70s or late 60s called Believing not

Belonging. She argues that we have a spiritual dimensional to our society

but we do not belong to an established church in the way that

we did. She argues rather nicely that the established church now is

the football stadium where people come to have their own religious

prejudices about which team they support and so on. That is a

fanciful idea but it is quite interesting how both archbishops and

chief rabbis have been on football pitch is to embrace the crowd. And

to connect with them as well. So in other words, it does not renew

matter, churches are just buildings so if you worship somewhere else in

a different way... What this argument taps into is the human need

for ritual. And the need for standardisation. I think that finds

its fullest and most dutiful expression in the extraordinary form

of the Catholic Mass. Those sort of rituals which connect with people

really spiritually. I'm just unconvinced that young people, that

sufficient numbers of young people are excited by this terrible music.

It is not just the music? Proper research shows that religious

education does not change attitudes as you grow up, but what does change

and help is the family background. That is very, very clear. If the

family is practising then the children are more likely to be

practising later on. The fact is that family life has changed

massively throughout the Western world and I think that is one of the

reasons. What is important is we continue to find and grab hold of

the values. For example, the Anglican Church has been hugely

important instrument in the development and formation of our

society. In the House of Lords I really value the bishops and I think

it is important that they stay, while we may want to reform the

Lords in some way, that angle is not just a religious angle, it is a

moral angle. It is important in our society, that spirituality is

something we need to nurture and preserved. I think Robert is right.

When we watch programmes like down to nab the and those shows with the

society which has changed dramatically apart from the church

-- programmes like Downton Abbey. I have been with the youth camp where

we have had a lot of guitars, sorry about that, Milo, but we have

learned loads that Jesus and faith and those kids were engaging with

it. It was meeting them where they were rather than sitting in the

Brompton oratory. Thank you all of you. This will continue outside. We

have been talking about it or morning! Our text and online vote

today, this was the question, should a motion abuse in a relationship be

a crime? Here is what you told us. 87% said yes, it should be a crime.

13% said no, it should not. Those are very high figures. 87% say it

should be a crime. It depends on who is watching the programme. That is

true, it is just a snapshot. I do not argue that it is a crime, the

problem is how you enforce it and how you make the law. That is a

difficult issue. Amy? Yes, we need to look out for people who are being

abused in any situation. And you agree with that? Of course that this

law is over the line into areas the government should not step into

which is relationships where there is not serious evidence of something

really going wrong thank you, or, thank you to you at home and the

guests who joined us in the studio. And also thank you to Nel at the

Greenbelt festival. We will be back next Sunday. Until then, goodbye.