Episode 4 Sunday Morning Live

Two days on from the nightmare in Nice, as the death toll rises,

we ask do such events unite or divide us?

Science or arts - which matters more?

As the Government plans to pump millions into

a new Chinese-style maths programme, are the creative arts being left out

Cellist Julian Lloyd-Webber tells us why access to music

Hollywood star Jennifer Aniston says she's fed up having

her value determined by her lack of motherhood.

Do we discriminate against people who don't have children?

And Paralympic long jumper Steph Reid told us why she used Latin to

change the image of physical disability. You will never hear the

words strong and sexy connected to somebody with a physical disability.

For me it is really important that you change that.

Our guests are here ready to discuss those issues, and

Tommy Sandhu will be sharing all your thoughts with us.

Good morning. Good morning. It is so important that you guys get in touch

and you can contact us through the Facebook page and on Twitter as

well. If you are tweeting, don't forget to use this hashtag. And you

can call us on this number: You can text as: And why not drop us a quick

email? Come and get involved. Thank you.

Aurelien Mondon is a senior lecturer in French and comparative politics

Julie Siddiqi is an interfaith activist and campaign

Peter Taylor is a journalist who has written and made films

about terrorism threats all over the world.

And Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin is chaplain to the Speaker

We start with the aftermath of the dreadful events in Nice.

84 people died, amongst them ten children.

So-called Islamic State claims Mohamed Lahouaiej-Bouhlel,

the driver of the lorry which created the mayhem,

And as the flower tributes grow and we hear details

about the victims, his actions become even more shocking.

The Pope described the attack as blind violence, and here

the Muslim Council of Britain said such acts are designed to create

There have been worldwide expressions of sympathy and

solidarity with France. We visited Notre Dame church in London, a focal

point for the French community in London, as after the terror attacks

in Paris, they come to terms with another mass killing.

People came to Notre Dame church after the Paris attacks. Once again

they have had to open a book of condolence to allow more people to

light more candles or more innocent victims. A terrible attack. My

feelings are shocked and incomprehension. The Father has

tried to bring comfort and peace to those who like himself are shocked

and bewildered. The best way to help people, I think it is about

listening to them and also offering them space for reflection. Then they

don't feel alone. It is not just French people who have come here to

pay their respects. Others want to show solidarity as well. When I saw

on TV the disaster, my heart was so sad. It is very terrible. Everybody

that I am talking to is very shocked. We are trying to stick

together and we're asking for news from the family in France. Like a

lot of people, it is a time of solidarity for all of Europe, not

just French, English. It is very painful but they should know it is

paying for all of us. It is not their pain, it is also our pain It

is important for us Christians to also pray for our Muslim brothers,

because they are going through a very rough time. I am sure there

were also Muslim families in Nice so we are all in the same boat. It is

really about continuing to live and to live for the best and to continue

to be human beings together. And not to let the anger or the hate to tip

over. We pray especially for the victims of the attack in Nice and

peace and unity of the people of goodwill. Our first question this

week, do the events in Nice unite or divide us? Let me begin with you. We

heard one of the people they're saying we are all in it together.

Are we? I would like to think we are and it is true that it is hopeful to

be such messages as the ones we have just heard. I have heard some of

these on social media as well, where people say we need to take a step

back and not fight hatred with hatred but with hope. However I am

more pessimistic when I look at early discourse. When I look at the

reaction of the people who take part, are allowed to take part in

public discourse, there is actually more hatred to fight hatred. We saw

French politicians coming out a few hours after the event talking about

war, talking about terrorism, speculating about what was

happening. So many excerpts have played this card as well, trying to

find divisions, when we don't really know what has happened or Y. There

is a possibility for unity but we have got to fight for it. We will

talk about what the politicians are saying and why it is affecting us.

So many people are asking why France again. I know you have studied the

patterns of different terrorist groups in your work at different

times in history. Have you got any thoughts on why France has been

targeted and whether this could be prevented? Why France is being

targeted is because France is in the forefront of the coalition air

strikes attacks on Islamic State both in Iraq and Syria. And also

France being a secular state, a secular society, does not permit,

frowns upon the wearing of the hijab. Muslim women are not allowed

to be fully covered, and therefore the so-called Islamic State sees

France as a legitimate target for attack. With regard to the tragic

events in Nice, I was not surprised but I was horrified like everybody

else. It was the scale of it that really surprised me. The attack

itself was always on the cards, be it in France or in the UK, because

Mohamed Lahouaiej Bouhlel, -- because Mohammed Al-Adnani, the

so-called director of Islamic State's overseas operations, as

directed these attacks. The first we saw on UK soil was the murder of Lee

Rigby, which was carried out by Mohammed Atta Belardo and his

colleague. -- Michael Adebolajo They used a knife to do the killing

and Islamic State has said you don't need to be part of a network, just

do it yourself in whatever way possible. And there is still

speculation about how much of a link he had with Islamic State. We don't

know that and I would be surprised if there was no linkage but at the

moment the French authorities are combing through his emails, his

computer, with a fine tooth comb, to see if there was a connection.

Clearly I don't think there is a direct connection with Islamic

State. The Muslim Council of Britain said these acts were designed to

create hatred and cause division. As Peter was talking about the concerns

of a secular society in France at why it is being targeted, this will

almost entrench this hatred and division. As everybody has heard, we

are all in this together but we can't be complacent either. We see

division and hatred on our own streets, as had been mentioned. MP

Jo Cox was murdered by somebody who also took extreme views and we can't

be complacent about any of this She spoke very nobly before she was

killed about how we have more in common and we need to fight against

these things. If we allow hatred to divide us, then that is exactly what

extremists from anywhere want to happen. We cannot allow them to feel

like they are winning in that sense. And her husband in reaction to her

death said that people need to come together and express love. Reverend,

interesting, we have picked up on the language being used by

politicians and leaders. Theresa May, Prime Minister, said we need to

crush terrorists who are destroying our way of life. This is aggressive

language and we have heard from President Hollande that we are at

war with terrorists. How does that make us feel as citizens when our

leader uses aggressive language like that? How can we respond to that if

we are being told also to be kind to one another and live with one

another in peace? I think what we are seeing both from France and

possibly here is a human reaction. Most of us, when something like that

happens, we are automatically thinking that we want to retaliate.

But I would encourage leaders to take a step back, to pause and

reflect, before hitting out. I think it was Desmond Tutu who said that an

eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, we all end up blind and

toothless. We have got to find a way as a community, yes, to say that

what we have seen happening there is absolutely evil, but we have also

got to say how can we as a community recover from this? What are we going

to do? We have got to find a way of not letting it continued to be them

and us. If we continue down that road, then we are going to have a

repeat of this constantly. Peter, can we afford not to retaliate? Can

we afford not for it to be them and us? We can't, being realistic.

Terrorism in general has got to be attacked on two France. There has

got to be a military response in the case of Islamic State, but also a

response on the ground that the Muslim community or communities have

got to be persuaded that they are not being targeted because they are

Muslim. That the concern of the security services to look at those

within the community, and the reality is that the radicalised and

those with the potential to be radicalised, come within that

community. Therefore the intelligence services and the police

have got to be extremely sensitive about the way they approach the

gathering of intelligence, which is necessary. So the attack has got to

be both on the military front in Syria and Islamic State, but

also, which is even more important, it has got to be focused on the

Muslim communities, from which the extremists do come. I must stress

that they are a minority in that community but nevertheless, they

exist. Obviously you are right, this work is difficult. It requires

leadership but it requires sensitivity. Frankly speaking, some

of the work that has been done over the last couple of years in the way

of targeting people has not been done as well as it needed to be

done. You need the right people around the table, talking, and the

government need to engage with lots of different people. But this is a

problem for all of us and the pressure cannot just be put on the

Muslim communities to deal with this issue. This is a problem for all of

us. We talk about more in common. I have more in common with my

neighbour than I ever have had with the man who did that in Nice. I

don't have anything in common with him. The news that is coming out

right now, once again, is saying that this guy was not very religious

at all. We really do need this language. I was in Coventry recently

and post-World War II Coventry Cathedral was completely bombed to

ruins and from the ruins emerged Christian leadership that was quite

exceptional, where they spoke about not taking revenge and rebuilding

the community. It is very inspirational what they were able to

achieve from that. It is always easy for people to point fingers and

target and then say, oh, it is only a minority, but we all have got to

look at our language and realise that these things can really do

damage. And as we do that and analyse our language, emotions come

into play and retaliation almost seems the natural response. By that,

our leaders could be playing into their hands, the terrorists? Yes, I

don't think anything that has done so far has helped us at all. We have

seen a couple of decades of war at the moment and what has this

achieved, really? We need to take a hard look at what we have done in

the past in our foreign policies. We also need to take a hard look at

France as well will need to look at what it has done in its own

territory. I find it problematic to look at the Muslim community in

France. The Muslim community is perhaps 5 million people, eight to

10%, but it is a very diverse community. There are people who look

like Muslims, practising Muslims, people with a name that sounds

Muslim and so on. The people who committed the attacks on the 14th of

July was not really a practising Muslim, apparently, according to

witness accounts, so we need to be very careful about this. By saying

that the Muslim community needs to accept the state of emergency and

the stringent laws and the climate of suspicion around them, that is

very problematic because we are putting them as second-class

citizens by doing so they are French.

Has retaliation worked so far? Retaliation in Syria and Iraq is

clearly working. It is thought that one of the reasons for the recent

attacks in Europe, twice, in Paris, in Belgium and latterly in Nice if

Nice was connected with IS, and there's a big question mark over

that, is the result of IS suffering severe losses in Iraq and in Syria.

The danger is, the problem is, how do you defeat the ideology? How do

you persuade vulnerable young Muslims who are alienated anyway for

various reasons in their own societies, how do you persuade them,

how do you convince them this is not the path to take? That's what we

them this is not the path to take? That's what we need to do - address

this whole business of young people feeling alienated within the

societies and communities... Like second class citizens almost? Second

class citizens. We can't just bomb them out of existence and they can't

bomb us out of existence. At some point we are going to have to

invest, in the same way we are investing militarily, with eare

going to have to invest in sitting around the table and finding the

cause and addressing those causes that allows someone who has lived

amongst people there in Nice to destroy the people around him. I

think we know what the causes are, and we successive Governments have

been trying to deal with this huge problem over many years now. They

know where the alienation comes from. It is from unemployment, from

dislocation. We know what the causes are. The problem is, how do we

tackle it? If we know what the problems are, it seems to me we are

saying, we know what the problems are, let's go in and bomb. Bomb

When it comes to employment and the other things, we know what the

problems are, but we know what to do about it. We have to be careful with

discourse. We look at problems and all of a sudden we turn to

terrorism. Most of the people who are discriminated against in France

are not terrorists. They've sadly come to accept it. Politics does not

represent them any more. It is dangerous when talking about

alienation and discrimination to talk about terrorism. There's a

world apart. We are talking about division and whether the events in

Nice have divided us or if they unite us. Lots of people are saying

this is division, and some are saying they've united the

perpetrators as well as though who sympathise with the victims. Emma

says clearly it was an attempt to divide us. Dave saying they don t

divide us but they show us how divided the world is, an interesting

point. Bill says unfortunately the human race is becoming divided

because of religion. Grace says it divides and it you nights. It

depends on how we choose to respond. How we move forward. And Tess says

these unite the victims and those who sympathise with them, and the

perpetrators and those who sympathise with them. Tommy, thank

you. Julie, we are divided because of religion was one of the comments

there. How does that make British Muslims feel and react? British

Muslims along with our other fellow citizens have to use these tragic

incidents to bring us closer together. It requires effort. What

does that look like? I can't help thinking that some of it has to be

good old community organising in local areas. You cannot ever take

away from the fact that friendships and trust are crucial. It sounds

obvious, but most of us live in our own world and we know that often

people don't even know their neighbours. It is very sad. Going

back to those good old-fashioned community-organising models, where

people locally come together, and it requires a narrative from

politicians, from academics, and from all of us really to say that we

cannot allow this to be something that divides, because that's what

these people want to happen. The people that were killed in. In nice,

the person who did it, it was indiscriminate. I've heard all sorts

of stories coming out of people I know who were there. People say that

one of the first people to be killed was a Muslim woman in her headscarf.

That grief and this tragedy has to be something that brings us

together. We can't allow it to seem wishy-washy. This is real stuff and

we have to put effort in. And this is saying to people you need to love

people who hate you? Absolutely The recent discourse around the

referendum have almost legitimatised people on the streets saying them

over there, we don't like them because... I'm not going to blame

religion. As you say, we have to sit together, we have to get to know

each other as human beings, recognising that we share a common

humanity. That's what is important. And not them because they have this

banner calling them Muslim or Christian or Jews or something else.

We are going to leave it there for the moment. Thank you for your

thoughts so far. Thank you for your constituents as well. At the end of

the programme we'll see a French choir based in Britain paying

tribute to those who died in Nice. Still to come on Sunday Morning

Live: Paralympian athlete Stef Reid reveals how a near fatal accident

changed her life. I really promised in that moment,

God, if you can save Andrea save my life, then you can have the rest of

it. Can save Andrea save my life, then you can have the rest of it. --

save me and save my life then you can have the rest of it.

The Government's announced that ?41 million will be spent on bringing

in the Shanghai system of teaching maths in English schools

which has delivered remarkable results in some Asian countries

It's hoped that the plus is it will improve skills in sciences

But some educationalists believe the minus is that arts

Tommy's been to Stratford-Upon-Avon to ask people whether arts should be

And I think the atmosphere went to his head?

We are at the beautiful birthplace of Shakespeare where, according to

him, life is a stage. But should it be? In schools subjects such as

drama and creative arts are being pushed aside for more traditional

academic subjects like English and mathematics. But should that be the

case? I want to know what the people of Stratford-upon-Avon really think.

Was that too ITT? It's my performing arts background you see. Which

subjects do you think are most important to study? I think YELLOW I

think the sciences and literacy - English, maths. The core subjects

but maybe also music and arts. I think acting is one of the greatest

subjects, because it gives you so much experience into life, public

speaking, talking to people every day, having this conversation now.

We need to try everything creative and more academic subjects, so you

know where your passion lies. Did you study creative subjects at

school.? I did text tiles, home economics. And do you use these in

your day-to-day life? I have to do sewing when my socks have holes in.

How did studying the arts help you now? Not at all. Drama, you can do

that after 18, but before 18 I wouldn't describe it as essential.

What if creative subjects just disappeared from the curriculum How

do you think that would impact society? It would be a huge shame. I

think creative subjects are what makes everything more exciting and

brings life into it, isn't it? The academic subjects are good for the

economy and we need that to fund the arts. You can't help me if I need

more doctors, if I need lawyers those kind of people, business

people. That's a good point but if I'm paying a doctor I research into

that profession so I can know a bit about the profession. Profession. If

you had a cold I couldn't prescribe you medicine. But you could pretend

to! Are you surprised that Tommy always loved a bit of drama? I'm

not. Should arts be as important

as science in schools? Joining the panel now is the cellist

Julian Lloyd Webber. He is principal of the Birmingham

conservatoire. Cristina Odone is a writer

and director of the Centre Toby Young is associate

editor of The Spectator. And Edwina Dunn is CEO of consumer

insight group Starcount and the chair of Your Life,

a government initiative set up to promote science, technology,

engineering and mathematics. I had to retake the exams in

humanities and the sciences. That's why I want a more balanced GCSE

array of arts and sciences. How do you veer, science or arts? It should

have been science, but I did arts. But here you are the person who is

going to explain to me the Shanghai teaching method. My understanding is

that it is a highly structured method of classroom teaching where

everyone is brought up to the same standard and they don't move to the

next level until they all come up into the same standard. Why do we

need ?41 million to put into it some of England's schools? I guess

there's a lot of changes, new teaching material, new teachers

needed, so it's a massive change. It's not mandatory. It is voluntary

at this stage. But the big argument for learning, from what which could

in Shanghai, is that Chinese students are away ahead of British

students in maths. At 15 they are on average three years ahead of their

British counterparts and the most disadvantaged students in Shanghai

do better in maths than the most privileged in the UK. They are doing

something right. It is sensible to learn from them. Julian

Lloyd-Webber, does it mean if you add to the money in sciences or

maths are we subtracting from the arts? It is interesting to me that

this scheme is coming from Shanghai where it is perfectly normal for

children to play instruments. I wonder if that's helping them with

their maths, as has often been proved. My wife is from Shanghai. I

know the set-up there really well. One in six of our students in

Birmingham conservatoire are from China. The Far East, South Korea,

Japan, it is perfectly normal for a child to play an instrument. That's

something that's no longer to case here. As a parent it is difficult to

find this balance, which side, where do you push your child in terms of

academia? Do you push them in the academic side or the arts, because

you are thinking how easy it is for them to get a job and be accepted in

the world? If I were worried only about jobs I know that the starting

salary for an engineer is ?65,0 0, and for an actress or writer is one

sixth of that. As Julian would know, a musician is even worse. But we

don't want just professionals. We want human beings. We want

flourishing thriving human beings who know their music, who know about

stories and storytelling for me who is so interested in the transmission

of values, storytelling is essential. It is fundamental to us.

It the way we tell the world who we are and who we want to be. Julian,

you are not going to disagree with that The Government has a range of

statistics about the creative arts. The creative arts in this country

bring in ?84 billion a year. Nearly 2 million people active in the

creative arts. That's their job so it makes no sense at all to me to be

cutting it from the National Curriculum. This is something that

benefits the country. The wonderful thing, one of the many wonderful

things about music is that it brings people together. It has no barriers

of language. No barriers of background or race. At a time like

this when this country's never been so split down the middle as it is

now, it is madness to take it out. Theresa May, she may have ensured

that the Tory party is no longer the nasty party. It is certainly the

nasty party when it comes to making cuts to music education. Toby? It is

a false dichotomy to present it as a choice between the arts and the

sciences on the other. There has been more emphasis on science and

humanis, GCSEs, since 2010, but there hasn't been a corresponding

decline in the take up of arts subjects. 1 periods more children

are being entered for at least one arts GCSE this year than in any

previous years. We haven't seen a decline in the up-take of arts

subjects. The reason for a better balance and encouraging more

children, particularly women to do science and humanis subjects at

GCSE, is because they are preserve their options, and not have to

choose between an academic or vocational or creative route at 16,

and if they don't do these GCSEs they are cutting off their options.

Edwina? I like the fact that you have talked

about balance. The reality is the majority of students are turning

away from maths and physics. Even though they are getting A star

grades, girls and boys are disproportionately choosing the

arts. I agree that is a sadness however it is terrible when you are

the mother of a daughter who is terribly interested in the arts and

wants to read and write had become an actress maybe, and is told by her

teachers and her peers and her family's friends that, oh, you are

letting down this side as a girl. Why are you not going into maths and

science? Are you being stereotypical? I think that is

terrible. The whole point is that torture and are good at different

things. I would be really upset if my five-year-old daughter came out

of school having been taught nothing about music. Of course she has got

music at home but if you haven't, it has got to come from the school One

would imagine that in your home any child would have access to music!

But it is about access. I was very lucky because I was taught an

instrument, but being given an instrument by the local authority, I

was very blessed because the money is not therefore now. When you see

it with the sciences, you can teach that en masse. But you can teach

musical instruments en masse. But musical instruments? Yes, you can.

And all orchestras are great because it is working towards something that

is bigger than the individual. Julian is right. If we want to

prioritise use it teaching, the money is there. In the school I set

up in 2011, 90% of children are doing this EBacc, which is maths,

English, two sciences, and humanity and a foreign language, but we also

have something like the highest percentage of children entered for

music GCSE because we have a thriving music department. It

shouldn't be this kind of postcode lottery. Some children have access

to music and others don't get any at all. Apparently 40% of children from

a low income brackets never get to see and play music at school. They

never go to a concert? No. But music is an expensive subject to teach.

And so is physics. 40% of state schools have nobody studying physics

at A-level, nobody. This is a real dilemma. What I really hate about

this argument is the either or. It doesn't have to be. If you play an

instrument, it helps your schoolwork, and that is the thing we

cannot seem to get through to our lovely politicians. What we are

asking is whether learning to play an instrument and having that skill

is as important as having a science based skill, in terms of work. What

do you need? For the child to have the opportunity to find out for

themselves. The country is going digital, we know that, and we have

got to hold our own in a world economy where we are currently about

21st. To be in a position to get our jobs into the right shape, and our

skills and to the right shape, we have got to do something quite

radical will stop is this radical enough, ?41 million for some schools

to volunteer to learn maths? Is it a drop in the ocean? I think it is a

beginning but by 2030 there will be 7 million jobs that require some

element of science within them. Unless we get a lot more people

taking that kind of subject, we are going to fail. I hope we don't crush

the human spirit that is engaged in the humanities, the arts. My worry

is that when Jesus wanted to teach his disciples, he didn't teach them

four times four equals 16. He taught them stories with morals that were

part of a narrative. The same is true in the Koran. You are all

jumping ready to react and I am going to take a small pause and go

to Tommy and see what viewers are saying because I think it has

engaged them intensely. Massively. Many people concerned about the

Shanghai system and saying that arts subjects need to be of equal

importance. We are hearing lots from all the

adults and people on the panel, but what about the children it is aimed

at? British astronaut Tim Peake used his space station expedition to

encourage science in schools. Hannah Belshaw is one of the children that

he inspired. Come here and tell everyone what you did for Tim Peake.

I entered a competition. We had to think of an idea for him to do in

space. My idea was to collect data from around the International Space

Station and put it into mine craft for children. I was exactly the same

at 11! Same intelligence. Amazing to know that Tim Peake is using your

programme in space. Yes, it was really exciting. Have you always

been into sciences? Yes, I have but now even more because of the

competition. But do you like the arts, singing and dancing? Yes, I do

like it. Singing has creativity but so does science. She is an

all-rounder. I think we could learn something! I feel like an

underachiever here. You were nodding, saying the balance... The

balance is fundamental. To be said something about the schools he is

involved with. There have been many examples of schools that have

introduced music and it has turned their results completely around and

brought up all the results in the subjects that the national

curriculum is so obsessed by. Music is part of the national curriculum.

That is a misunderstanding. I wrote a book about it. What I mean by that

is that some schools have found very clever ways of not really doing it

so they do it for half term. The academies are not part of the

national curriculum anyway and there are more of those. We have just got

to be very careful. Many music teachers have been laid off. It is

so easy to destroy something and very difficult to bring it back

There is a lot of misinformation in this

discussion. The issue of whether art should be taught in schools has been

mixed up with people's attitudes towards the Conservative government.

The fact is there has not been a downgrading of arts in schools in

the past six years and the uptake of arts GCSEs has actually increased.

Julian is right that music is important but it is still part of

the national curriculum. I wrote a book about the national curriculum.

When we talk about ?41 million being injected into a maths programme it

is about the emphasis. I don't want to get into a discussion about the

political ramifications, but there is an impression, isn't there?

Yes, there is. The message is that this is what we as a society value

and that message is confirmed and reinforced with the salaries we give

to the engineer rather than the musician. How do you inspire? When a

young person hears you are going to earn more money, ?65,000 starting

salary, and you still have the phrase is poor, struggling actor,

how do you inspire them? There might be struggling scientists around I

don't know. It depends. It is perfectly possible to talk about the

massive figures at the creative arts make for this country. Are there any

struggling scientists? I can't think of one. They are paid on average 15%

more when they come out with these qualifications. The greatest ever

leader of the Conservative Party, Winston Churchill, was reputed to

say, during the war when he was asked to cut the arts budget, he

said why are we fighting the war then? I am going to finish on that

point because it is very poignant but I want to finish this discussion

with Hannah. It has been a joy having you with us this morning

Inspire us. In 15 or 20 years what are you going to be? A musician or a

scientist? I would like to be an astronaut. An astronaut playing and

singing and dancing in space. Thank you to Hannah and to our panellists.

Britain's Olympians and Paralympians are in the final stages

of their training for the greatest sporting event on earth,

One of our Paralympians will be Stef Reid, a long-jumper

who thought her sporting life was over when she was involved

in a boating accident, which nearly killed her.

Thankfully, Stef survived and that day became a turning

point in her life, spiritually as well as physically.

Nikki Bedi went to meet Stef as she prepared to leave for Rio.

The Paralympics in Rio, just a few weeks away, how is the training

going? The training is going well. I am fit, strong, in shape and

excited. You wouldn't be going to the Paralympics, you would not be

competing, if it was not for the fact that you had a terrible

accident. Can you talk through the accident so we can understand what

happened? I was up at my friend s cottage, which is on the lake, and

they had a boat. We spent most of the weekend doing what is called

tubing, which is when you attach an inner tube to the back of a

speedboat and go across the water at crazy speeds. I was in the water and

I was just waiting. I saw the boat in the distance heading towards me

and I just thought, well, they are just coming to pick me up. But I

looked back a split second later and I realised they don't see me. They

are going way too fast and there is not much else I could do at that

point except hope for the best. I remember seeing the white ridge of

the boat as it went over. It was kind of dark for a while. People in

the boat were yelling and screaming. I was just noticing that the water

all around me was read. Did you fear for your life? They took me to a

local clinic. A guy sent for my parents and then it registered what

they were doing. He sent them to say goodbye. I did think I was going to

die. And what happened to you in that moment? It is incredibly

sobering. What if this is it? Where am I going and what has this life

meant? Has it been worth it? I feel like I have not lived my life well

and the things I have chosen to focus on, Goss, they don't matter.

-- gosh. Being on the honour roll, popularity, none of this matters. I

felt this weight of I have not done life well and I so badly wanted a

second chance to do things better and I promised God in that moment,

if you can save me and my life, you can have the rest of it and I will

try and do better. What happened then? When did you know that you

have lost your foot? My mum came into the recovery room and she was

the one who told me, I am so sorry, they had to amputate and they

couldn't save you like. It was just so strange to go from such elation

to complete devastation. God, why would you save me to then take away

the one thing that I loved doing most in life, sport? It was my dream

to play rugby internationally and I just kind of decided, you know what,

I am going to give the creator of the world the benefit of the doubt

and just trust that he has this under his control, even if I can't

understand it. I saw you talking about wanting to not only empower

other women to take part in Paralympics sports, but also to make

it sexy. What did you mean by that? Typically there are two words that

you will never hear in the description of somebody with a

physical disability. One of them is strong and the other is sexy. For me

it is really important that you change that. Did you walk London

Fashion Week last year? I did. How was that? Awesome. It was quite

nerve wracking. They wanted me to do it in one of my old running blades

that had been converted into a stiletto high heel. So often people

want to look at my leg but not to stare at it, but this was designed

to be stared at. It was a really great thing to be able to put it on

display and say, this is beautiful. This is amazing. Look at it.

They are cutting off their options. Edwina?

Do you ever train together? There are huge advantages and

disadvantages to elite athletes being married. On the one hand you

get what the other person's going through. But at the same time it's a

pretty selfish lifestyle. It's strange, because when you get

married you make these vows to do whatever it takes to love them and

help them realise their dreams. How do you balance that with at the same

time having to be selfish in order to do your best in Rio? It is a hard

balance. Do you think you could define yourself without been an

athlete? Yes. Actually that was the biggest problem after the accident.

That was how I defined myself, as an athlete. I've had that moment of,

well, who am I now? I realised what a dangerous situation that is to

have your identity wound up in something that isn't permanent.

Whatever that is. Whether it's how you look or how much money you have.

My worth now at the end of the day comes down to my faith and who I am.

Stephanie, we wish you speed, strength, from strength to strength

to Rio 2016. Thank you. For the first time in 70 years,

women over 40 are having more babies than women under 20,

according to Government The average age for becoming

a mother today is around 30. As those figures are going up,

so are pressures on women to have babies or declare why

they're not having babies, according to Hollywood

star Jennifer Aniston. Aniston, who's 47, has issued

an open letter speaking out against perpetuation of the notion

that, as she puts it, women are somehow incomplete,

unsuccessful, or unhappy if they So what does this say

about our attitudes And do childless men face the same

pressures as women? Our question - do we discriminate

against childless people? Joining the panel is the comedian

and stand-up poet Kate Fox. Emma Woolf is a writer

and journalist. And rejoining the panel

is the Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin. And Toby stays with us. Thank you.

Kate, do we attach too much value to parenthood? Yes, I think we do, on

the whole. I think we often attach a particular set of values to

parenthood and to motherhood, so you've either got to be a caring,

nurturing earth mother, or the Moir who manages to do it all and be the

perfect capitalist person who is able to have children, juggle

babies, be on the boardroom and everything. And those stories of

motherhood are precious. Particularly to mother I have to

say, and to those who want to be parents and can't be. I think as one

who is happily shield-free, I experience mild mithering around

whether I should be a mother. That's all. What do you mean, because you

say, I don't want children? Yes for years people would say, are you

sure? I'm still not postpone o pausal, so I can't prioritial say,

actually that's not a barrier now is it. Rose, once can't forget the

comments made by Andrea led many about her attitudes to being a

mother and how much she compares about society in comparison the

Theresa May, the Prime Minister who hasn't got children. Is it wrong to

subject that if you are a parent you have perhaps more concern or you

have more to contribute to society? I think we probably are taking this

completely out of context. I think children are important to

communities, to families, to society as a whole. Perhaps what we've seen

here in the UK is a personalisation of it. I take a very Afrocentric

view. Long before I was a mother I was a mother because I was an adult

female in the community, and there were children. Children. And so I

assumed the role. What we need is to allow space for men and women to

take on the role of parenthood whether or not they physically give

birth to children. Emma, how do you feel, because you would like

children. Kate was bringing up attitudes to women who haven't got

children, of a certain age. What are your experiences? I would like to

have children. It hasn't happened yet. But I just think, I wouldn t

use the word discrimination against women but we need to be aware of it

from the other side, how it feels, particularly in the light of the

Andrea Leadsom comments. My objection wasn't that it had cruel

intention but how it feels from the other side and there is quite a gulf

if you are childless between you and the women who do have children. I

wrote a piece in the Times explaining when you are around other

women in their 30s who have children, that's all they talk

about, their young children, and that's totally fine. I'm not

criticising them. It is more about being honest and being aware of the

pain and the many reasons why women don't have children. Some are them

are by choice, like Kate. Some by circumstances, maybe they haven t

met the right person. It is a whole host of reasons. Jennifer Aniston

made the point she is fed up of being defined by this. When you look

at the comments of Andrea Leadsom, when it emerged or was said that

Theresa May didn't choose not to have children, it just happened that

way, does that make it OK? Did it make it OK to not have children

because you can't have them rather than choosing not to? No, the choice

is valid, between not to have children is sad and valid as well.

We don't measure someone like George Clooney, who doesn't have children,

why the obsession with Aniston not having children. Toby, have you ever

been scrutinied in terms of whether you are a father or not? I have four

children, so I'm OK. It is not quite right to say George Clooney is never

criticised. I think men this their 40s and 50s who don't have children

are often categorised as toxic bachelors, selfish and narcissistic.

I don't think we should exaggerate how much criticism there is of women

who don't have children. I've read the Jennifer Aniston piece. OK,

there's a lot of media attention focused on whether she is or not

pregnant, but that's because it would be a massive news story. It

wasn't judging, she's read too much into that. Andrea led many's

comments... She rejects the suggestion... The mere suggestion

that she said that Theresa May would make a worse leader than her before

she didn't have children, it was considered so beyond the pale she

had to withdraw from the leadership race a couple of days later. It is

outrageous to suggest that someone without children wouldn't be as

invested in the future. It is not as if society holds that view. But they

do. If they do, why did Andrea Leadsom leave the race? Jennifer

Aniston is often portrayed as poor, sadever fer without a baby or a

husband. There's a strong difference actually. What if Theresa May had

been a politician instead who rather than talking about being sadly

unable to have children, had said actually I've never wanted children.

I don't really like 'em much. Possibly they couldn't have gone

that far. I'm thinking of Julia Gillard, the former Australian Prime

Minister, who felt she had a certain freedom... And was portrayed as

barren. She was culled pursely barn, by one of her adversary. And what

What if they said children are a burden and they detract from you

doing a job. They are a joy and a pleasure. We are taking this debate

to the extreme, focusing on these two political women. Children, they

are a gift to us. They are not just the gift to me because I gave birth

to them, but they are a gift to the community. We need them, in years to

come... If someone chooses not to have them, are they not serving

their community? I think everyone that be able to make choices that is

important for them. But as you've said, there are some women who is

unable, it is not a choice. They can't. Let's find out what our

viewers are saying. There are lots of reactions. A lot of people are

saying there is discrimination from parents as well as those who don't

have any children. And lots of comments about the dads.

We've been asking, do we discriminate against childless

people. Do we discriminate against parents, Toby? I think one of the

reasons why parents imagine that having children makes them better

people, more serious morally somehow, is being a parent does

involve lots of sacrifices. It is often not much fun. Your life

suddenly turns pretty bad when you have lots of children. You can't go

on good holidays any more. You have to spend an enormous amount on

childcare. It is a bit boring. One of the ways parents try to

compensate themselves for the cost of having children is to imagine

that people who don't are not as morally serious. They are a bit

jealous. We are having a lie-in going on lovely romantic holidays.

You don't get the moral high ground basically. Exactly. The suggestion

that parenting makes you less selfish, I think it is selfish but

about your little Mini-Mees, so it is not unselfish. Kate? And

environmentally, there's a strong argument that we are going to be

overpopulated massively by 2050 and maybe it is selfless not to have

children. On the other hand I felt this week a sea change in attitude

to people who choose not to have kids. I was surprised at the counter

blast against Andrea Leadsom, quite rightly. But I was surprised at the

support. There it feels that we are massively are saying you are a

better person if you are a parent. Thank you so much for all of your

thoughts. Kate, Emma, Toby, Rose. Thank you to our guests and also

to you for your comments And now, as we contemplate

the aftermath of the attack in Nice, and in tribute to those

who tragically lost their lives we're joined by the London-based

French chamber choir Les Fauristes They will sing us out

with their version of the French national anthem

La Marseillaise. # Allons enfants de la Patrie

Le jour de gloire est arrive # Contre nous de la tyrannie,

# Entendez-vous dans les campagnes Mugir ces feroces soldats

# Ils viennent jusque dans vos bras Egorger vos fils, vos compagnes

# Aux armes, citoyens Formez vos bataillons

# Qu'un sang impur Abreuve nos sillons!

# Allons enfants de la Patrie Le jour de gloire est arrive

# Entendez-vous dans les campagnes Mugir ces feroces soldats

# Aux armes, citoyens Formez vos bataillons

# Qu'un sang impur Abreuve nos sillons!

OK, guys, we're about to go live to the world.