Episode 1 The Big Questions


Episode 1

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Today on The Big Questions: Fat cats, strikes, and today's wise men.

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Welcome to the tenth series of The Big Questions.

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Today we're live from Brunel University London.

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Welcome, everyone, to The Big Questions.

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This Wednesday was dubbed Fat Cat Day, when Britain's top

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bosses earned as much after two and a half days'

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effort as the average UK worker gets for a whole year -

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The chief executives of the top FTSE 100 companies earned on average

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just under ?4 million - that's each, not between them.

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The top earner, Sir Martin Sorrell of the advertising agency WPP,

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banked over ?70 million in 2015, the latest year

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The national living wage for over 25s is just ?7.20 an hour.

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You think that this has got a really detrimental effect on society as a

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whole. Explain what you mean. We know that in countries where there

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are higher levels of inequality, illustrated by this gap in pay, that

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there are higher levels of violence, mental ill health, higher levels of

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physical ill health, and poorer education. This affects everybody,

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whether you are earning ?77 million or ?28,000. Why does it have that

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effect on people? We're not talking about a Sheeran and Wayne Rooney.

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Specifically people who are CEO of a company. It is symptomatic of a

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highly divided society. The UK is the six most unequal country in the

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OECD. We know that they and other organisations like the IMF are

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paying inequality is a very bad thing for society and they are

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worried about it in economic terms as well. It is about inequality,

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isn't it? Supposedly so. What do you mean by supposedly? It depends on

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whether you think inequality is a good or bad thing and whether that

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means anything. Let me rephrase the question. Is inequality a good or a

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bad thing? I would prefer to refrain to answer that because I prefer to

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look at what it means for people to live with. Interesting. If you look

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at firms with higher levels of income inequality, they tend to have

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higher operational performance and they tend to have longer-term

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returns for shareholders. What that means is that if you are in one of

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those firms as low paid worker, what you really want is guilty in your

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job and to know there is talent at the top. It doesn't necessarily

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matter how much the person at the top is being paid. What you don't

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want is for them to walk off and for you to be left with a company that

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is not worth as much. You want to be working with a company whose share

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price is doing well and you want to know there is talent at the top. We

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live in a world where companies are getting bigger and bigger so people

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are being paid more to run them. Because they are larger, and so

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asking questions about whether inequality is good or bad doesn't

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necessarily tell us what is good for the work on the ground. If you did

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get rid of the top people because of the pay, and they went elsewhere...

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But if pay doesn't matter, why not cut the pay? We don't know that

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cutting pay improves performance. The illustration is that it doesn't

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do that. Capping pay doesn't improve performance. Shareholders, fund

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managers are getting more active as shareholders, they do cut pay and do

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a of things like improving innovation, and they do more like

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bringing up the value of the company through the operations, but they

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don't cut pay to do that. So it is more compact than headline about

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inequality? Having been a low paid worker myself at times, like many

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people here, I wasn't thinking about the share price of the company. When

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I was trying to make ends meet I wasn't thinking that. I wasn't

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thinking it was all OK because if we keep the same buzz at the top you

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will look after us. That is a really paternalistic view. -- the same boss

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at the top, he will look after us. It doesn't matter who is at the top.

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Whether the CEO does well or badly, they are still being paid obscene

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amounts of money. Are these amounts of money obscene? They are extremely

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high but there are two questioned here. Are they being paid more than

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they are worth to the company? And other workers worse off as a result?

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The answer to the first question is no. In general the CEO matters

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enormously and having a good one can mean not just the difference between

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profit and loss but life and death for a big company. On the second

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point, the ordinary worker, I have had very low paid jobs as well and I

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didn't care what the share price was. I did care about job security

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and about that company being competitive and I did care about

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knowing that next week and next month that my wages might be a bit

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higher. The weighted get that is not capping it at the top and not

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driving the talent away from the UK. It is to get the best leaders and

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the best people at the bottom. Let me finish. I wish we would spend

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less time worrying about how much people at the top are paid and more

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time thinking about the wages at the bottom. It isn't and either or

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situation. When you look at some companies, like Sport Direct, the

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wages and conditions for the workers are appalling and the leaders are

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paid a lot. Getting rid of the talent at the top is not going to

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make things better for the workers. The corporate welfare is coming in,

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the ?40 billion subsidy to the pensions, that is being creamed off

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by the managers at the top making huge bonuses. Huge quantitive easing

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been put into the banking system to rescue it. Meanwhile wages haven't

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recovered to pre-2008 levels. This doesn't make sense. They are not

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seeing the benefits. The top 1% pay the majority of all income tax. 90%

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of people earn less than ?50,000 in this country. It is a very small

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number right at the top creaming off excess profit. And paying a lot of

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income tax. But your hands up, audience. I am sure you have an

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opinion. One of the answers that has been suggested is to have workers on

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remuneration committees, which would be more collegiate way of doing it.

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Make that argument. I think it be more realistic as a conversation

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based on the real experiences of the workforce. One of the reasons why

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the huge numbers come out at the end of the process is because everyone

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around the table is used to massive numbers and they are very highly

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paid professionals desensitised to the public reaction when we hear how

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many millions. So put members of the workforce in there to test these

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huge pay packets and see why they are being awarded. They tried it in

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Germany, workers on boards. And in the companies where it was tried,

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they had far lower value than probable companies without workers

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on the board. How are you measuring value? Worker satisfaction? Happy

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families? Quality of life or just purely shareholder profit? Yes,

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squeeze the wages and baby profit for people who invest. Or are you

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talking about job satisfaction for people where they can build a life.

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I don't disagree with that per se but when we came to the responses to

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people, let's get government to do something about it, that seems to be

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the best anyone can come up with. The government has got to do

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something about it because the government is having to subsidise

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people. People are not earning enough in their wages and their

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take-home pay to exist in this country. The government is having to

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pay in terms of tax credit, universal credit. They have got to

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top people up. People are going to food banks in this country, people

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who are working, and I think that is a disgrace. If I may, Theresa May,

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if I may, is launching the shared society idea this week. Some people

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were saying that ?10 million a year, ?15 million a year, whatever, is not

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consummate with that. What does the audience thing? Green jumper? Quick,

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if you would? What is the intention of the CEO? Are they there to make

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long-term benefit for the society? If you look at 2008 prices, all the

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CEOs were there what happened after that? CEOs make profits for the

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shareholders. What is their intention? Are they there to make a

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difference for society or to get their salaries? If accompanied as

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well, the workers do well and society does well the

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counterargument. -- if the company does well. If a person is looking

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for a salary 300 times that of the average worker in this country,

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surely the only thing you can be sure that that person is that they

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are greedy and selfish? Is that the sort of culture you want to create

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within that company and within society as a whole? Yes. Wizbit? Are

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these people greedy and selfish? Bill Gates, he does philanthropy.

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Everything has got to be quantified. As Theresa May said, we need a fair

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society. When you look at BHS, which affected many thousands of people,

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by one greedy person. Nobody minds CEOs that perform well earning lots

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of money because obviously we need to support that creativity, but what

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we are speaking about is where we see blatant corruption, and we

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really need to fight against that. As the young lady mentioned at the

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front about food banks, there is social enterprise in Wednesbury and

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we have a food bank because our parents are so poor that they cannot

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afford food and local authorities cannot afford to pay for the

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education plans as opposed to support. We need a fair society and

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we need to root out corruption both in private and local authorities who

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don't pay for the things that people at the bottom rung of society need.

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Thank you for that point. Anyone else? Mick Whelan, union man, what

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are you stand about? We talk about family. I am not against wealth

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creator Jim, economic viability, contributing to GDP, people going

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well. -- wealth creation. But the tactic is doing well off of the

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employees, not off of investment. How can we manufacture additional

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profits by taking it away from the people we employ? It should be

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shared about. Don't we have a million kids between the ages of 16

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and 24 who are not in employment? We have the biggest growth in zero

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hours, typified by ASOS and Sport Direct. People are suffering from

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companies that make massive profits and don't recognise the contribution

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of the staff. The only thing that we are really debating is whether CEOs

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matter to the value of their firms. Hang on. Does a company that makes

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the right strategic decisions have an edge on its rivals? All the

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people with money on the line, share investors, pension funds, they all

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agree that when a good CEO leaves a firm, the firm becomes much less

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valuable. The person who ran Burberry, when she stepped down

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suddenly, Burberry became half ?1 billion less valuable and she was

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paid much less than that. Martin Sorrell is a great example. Is he

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worth ?70 million? I think Bob. He built WPP. -- I think more. They

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made shopping baskets before he came along and now it is one of the most

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important advertising firms. He built it from the ground up with his

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hands. This is a very important person. You one study like that

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leading your phone whether you are share holder or worker. -- leading

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your firm. I will come back to you. What about that situation? We are

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going to drop your page dramatically, Mr or Mrs CEO, and

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they say, OK, I will take my laptop, leave the company and go to Geneva

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and you lose that talent. What about that? I think it is very rare that

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it is a Mrs! The FTSE 100 CEOs, there are six women, which is

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another issue. But what if they are going elsewhere and you lose the

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talent? We are possessed with talent. We are calling it talent.

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These people are working extremely hard and they may be extremely

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creative and as somebody has already said, what is Martin Sorrell doing

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for ?77 million that he would not do for 76 million? He built the company

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from nothing. Great. The problem is that businesses don't exist in

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isolation. Whether it is WPP, any other business you care to mention,

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it is built on the back of the education of its workers that we are

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all contributing to, being built on police keeping society safe so they

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can keep their businesses going, it is built on the efforts of nurses

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and care workers and people who look after our children so we can go to

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work. These people are not seeing any benefit from this. Does not in

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isolation. Justin? Does this not set the great example in our society? I

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could one day be making ?70 million a year. Maybe not! As I said that...

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I would be confident that you would be giving it back to the people

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because you care more. Allegedly! Is it an aspirational thing? We are

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discussing inequality and voices in the audience said it didn't matter

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but of course it matters. We are society. There was an argument made

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over here that the bigger your company, the more money you can get,

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does that work for the NHS? Does that work for schools? Do teachers

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get paid more when they are teaching 30 children? Of course not. This

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failure to recognise that there is a contradiction between saying we are

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all citizens, all equal, we all get the vote, but you don't matter

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because you only earn ?5 a week, it is a con. If we really believe in

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society, we should be investing in everybody, irrespective.

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NHS workers and teachers know that they don't get as much, they are not

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working for private companies. That begs the question whether end we

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start from somebody come and we have not specified who, needs to stick

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their finger in and cut CEO papered do we also have to cut middle

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management pay? We are talking about the CEOs of private companies. This

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is a creature of the state. There is a knock-on effect on public sector,

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not all teachers are working for the state, many are working for private

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companies, with academise Asian. -- with academies. We are seeing this

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have an impact because then it forces up the wages in the private

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sector. Stefan, I have had enough from you. You don't normally save it

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is counterintuitive that is put to you because you might agree, we will

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get somebody to respond, but it looks like hay and remuneration that

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up. -- pay and remuneration of a company fails, what is going on

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there? A system that doesn't work and the latest big set of research

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from Lancaster University shows there is no link at all between

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vastly increased CEO pay packages and capital letters. You can

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understand if it goes well, they get a bonus. But who is doing the work?

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The bigger the company, the moral support the CEO has come the more

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senior managers there are the more divisional managers there are, there

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should be less credit to a CEO for running a bigger company and they

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don't run it on the own. They take decisions with the board and with

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their senior management teams. There is this superhero vision of one

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human being apparently changing the destiny of the corporation with tens

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or hundreds of thousands of people doing the work. And the middle

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managers are taking the decisions. It is very tell stuff. We pipe up

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these people and they take and demand ever bigger packages and they

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are getting them because there is nothing to stop them. Sony ten years

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ago was much bigger than Samsung, they decided to invest in

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smartphones and Sony didn't and that was a good idea. Samsung is a giant

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and stone is that Regazzoni is getting worse because of a strategic

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decision made by someone at the top. If I was Sony I would have wanted

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the right CEO who took that decision.

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That the numbers in perspective is that this gentleman made a good

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point that we have to quantify it. In an average FTSE 100 company, the

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average salary of the CEO is less than one 1000th of the operating

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costs. It is not to us and anybody watching for -- but what the company

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is a tiny amount to spend to get the best person for the job. If you

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think that Tim Cook is not with 0.001% of Apple's costs, you need to

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think more about what happened in the companies when they make the

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wrong decisions. Is it not the case that it is not so much what people

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get if they have a successful company and they are vibrant and

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energetic and dynamic, it is what people get riled about is the

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evasion and tax evasion and dodging. If you have somebody like Bill Gates

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for example with making huge amounts that is doing a lot of philanthropy

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and doing a lot for society, do you not celebrate somebody like him? Of

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course and the world would literally be a poorer place if we do not have

:20:17.:20:19.

such great philanthropists as that but these are different issues. You

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look at somebody like Warren Buffett comedy is concerned about inequality

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-- he is concerned. It is an evil is decided that there is a big gap. The

:20:32.:20:35.

business community is bothered about this. Research shows that 71% of

:20:36.:20:40.

employees are concerned about bosses pay and think it is too high at 59%

:20:41.:20:46.

are demotivated by that service is having an effect on productivity.

:20:47.:20:50.

Also on morale, if we value an average CEO at 324 times the income

:20:51.:20:57.

of a care worker, that shows that our society is putting profit before

:20:58.:21:02.

people. APPLAUSE Thank you very much. The first

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debate of our new series and very interesting.

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If you have something to say about that debate log

:21:08.:21:10.

on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions and follow the link to where you can

:21:11.:21:12.

We're also debating live this morning at Brunel University,

:21:13.:21:19.

should industrial action only target employers?

:21:20.:21:22.

And would today's wise men believe in God?

:21:23.:21:25.

So get tweeting or emailing on those topics now or send us any other

:21:26.:21:29.

ideas or thoughts you may have about the show.

:21:30.:21:36.

It's been a miserable six months for the hundreds of thousands

:21:37.:21:47.

of people who commute into London on Southern Rail,

:21:48.:21:49.

the rail franchise that serves much of Kent,

:21:50.:21:51.

They've faced cancellations, delays, over-crowded trains and all-out

:21:52.:21:54.

strikes in a dispute over whether the sliding doors should now

:21:55.:21:56.

be controlled by the drivers instead of by separate guards on the trains.

:21:57.:22:00.

On Thursday, a report from the rail regulator said that driver-only

:22:01.:22:02.

trains would be safe on Southern Trains provided certain

:22:03.:22:04.

And one of the unions agreed to talks with

:22:05.:22:08.

the Transport Secretary, Chris Grayling.

:22:09.:22:10.

As things stand, there's three more days of strikes called for next week

:22:11.:22:13.

And to make matters worse, the tube trains are on strike today

:22:14.:22:22.

and British Airways employees are all out on Tuesday

:22:23.:22:24.

It's not a good week for passengers to get anywhere on time.

:22:25.:22:28.

Should industrial action only target employers,

:22:29.:22:30.

Can we not find out a way of doing that? Give us an idea of the misery

:22:31.:22:41.

this has caused the collateral damage of this strike. There was no

:22:42.:22:47.

doubt who feels the pain on transport strike and passengers are

:22:48.:22:50.

many of whom don't have choices, they rely on these services to get

:22:51.:22:54.

to and from home and it makes their lives a misery. Southern rail,

:22:55.:22:58.

300,000 people every day use their services to get to work and back and

:22:59.:23:04.

their lives are being disrupted. It is costing businesses tens of

:23:05.:23:07.

millions of pounds of people don't know if they can get to the office

:23:08.:23:13.

at what time, to meetings, theatres, restaurants, shops, their takings

:23:14.:23:16.

are down. People don't stick around at the end of the day and of course

:23:17.:23:21.

there is a human cost. The passengers don't know what time they

:23:22.:23:24.

are getting home, can they the family meal, can they have bath time

:23:25.:23:33.

with the kids? Most passengers would say that enough is enough and get

:23:34.:23:39.

back to talks. Collateral damage is huge on this. Misery is not too

:23:40.:23:47.

strong a word. Yes. And I spent most of my life promoting the rail

:23:48.:23:50.

industry, trying to get long-term investment, and get fares down to

:23:51.:23:57.

rate where people can afford them, not 14% of their gross income. But

:23:58.:24:02.

you get to a situation, we have only just recently gone on strike, our

:24:03.:24:09.

first strikes were early in December and we halved those strikes next

:24:10.:24:12.

week in relation to consideration us. The reality is this is not a

:24:13.:24:17.

pecuniary strike, it is not about money, we're not looking for

:24:18.:24:20.

leverage or better conditions or pay, we believe that these 12 yard

:24:21.:24:28.

trains are unsafe. We are campaigning for safety. Short-term

:24:29.:24:36.

pain and long-term gain? We hope so. We're not doing this for ourselves,

:24:37.:24:39.

this is not the normal sort of dispute in relation to a poor pay

:24:40.:24:44.

offer. The regulator said it would be safe with certain conditions. The

:24:45.:24:51.

evidence to the transport select committee and the report last week

:24:52.:24:54.

they said that it can be safe and went on to highlight issues we said

:24:55.:24:59.

were unsafe and did not give an improvement. Cleaning the mirrors

:25:00.:25:02.

was one of them. If you can't see the people on the platform and you

:25:03.:25:07.

can't do the platform train interface, it is inherently unsafe.

:25:08.:25:14.

Passengers always see the he said, she said of the unions and employers

:25:15.:25:17.

and this is where we have to like an expert evidence from trusted

:25:18.:25:21.

independent third parties and that is what we had last week, the

:25:22.:25:27.

regulator, Her Majesty's inspect of railway, an independent person

:25:28.:25:29.

saying this is a safe way of working. -- inspector. They made

:25:30.:25:34.

some recommendations and make's members were involved. They

:25:35.:25:37.

identified some improvements that could be made, whether it is cutting

:25:38.:25:41.

away foliage, improving lighting and in some instances where there is not

:25:42.:25:47.

good visibility, having extra staff in the station. For the most part

:25:48.:25:50.

this is a safe way of working there are things that could be done to

:25:51.:25:54.

make it safer but instead of a wholesale disruption, work with the

:25:55.:25:59.

employer. The idea that this wholesale disruption has come from a

:26:00.:26:04.

strikes if nonsense. At Stratton Station for years, because of

:26:05.:26:09.

Strathern -- Southern rail's incompetence from the station has

:26:10.:26:12.

been run into the ground. We are suffering as passengers. It has been

:26:13.:26:18.

bad and it is getting worse. My son is a wheelchair user and he cannot

:26:19.:26:22.

use the railways without help. Southern rail are proposing to take

:26:23.:26:25.

that away, we were to plan journeys much more in advance. This should be

:26:26.:26:29.

a public transport system that works and is fit for purpose and serves

:26:30.:26:33.

everybody but he will not be able to use it and of other disabled people

:26:34.:26:42.

will not be able to. A lot of people don't realise that Southern rail is

:26:43.:26:48.

basically nationalised. In 2015 it was taken into public hands, they

:26:49.:26:52.

kept the brand but the Department for Transport decide on pay and

:26:53.:26:59.

conditions. That's not true. I'm happy to show... They formed the

:27:00.:27:06.

core GTR and put south-eastern, Southern, great Northern together.

:27:07.:27:11.

What they did to force this group was given a contract where all the

:27:12.:27:15.

revenue goes to the government and the government bears the costs, it

:27:16.:27:18.

is still privatised... And the government decides pay... Let him

:27:19.:27:26.

finish his point. The government decides conditions of this is no

:27:27.:27:30.

more privatised than London buses. That thing in Dia Chakravarty. What

:27:31.:27:37.

kind of disputes can we have going ahead that will change things and

:27:38.:27:43.

give better conditions for workers? And if there is a proper grievance,

:27:44.:27:48.

to address them and redress them, without members of the general

:27:49.:27:51.

public suffering as much as they have been doing and as much as they

:27:52.:27:56.

will be doing with other disputes in the coming weeks? That is where the

:27:57.:28:00.

debate should be. If the unions are telling us that there is a pay

:28:01.:28:07.

issue, a work commission issue, people would be more willing to

:28:08.:28:11.

listen. All we hear from the outside, as we just heard from the

:28:12.:28:15.

unions saying this is a safety issue where we do have independent experts

:28:16.:28:18.

saying it is not. You mentioned the report from last week, we have seen

:28:19.:28:24.

requests from the London Evening Standard which also came out last

:28:25.:28:28.

week saying that the number of incidents, serious incidents, in

:28:29.:28:33.

driver only trains had been coming down massively. We don't really see

:28:34.:28:38.

a safety issue but we keep hearing from the unions that there is one.

:28:39.:28:43.

It seems to us like there is a lack of transparency and honesty on the

:28:44.:28:50.

unions part. That makes it very difficult for us to understand why

:28:51.:28:53.

this is going on and we are the ones being held hostage. We need unions

:28:54.:29:00.

in society. Absolutely, they have an important in protecting workers'

:29:01.:29:02.

rights but with that comes great responsibility. To what extent can

:29:03.:29:07.

they hold us hostage and if they do, they have to be honest about it.

:29:08.:29:14.

Just a second, please. If they do think that conditions are not good

:29:15.:29:19.

enough and to strike, they have to ask if they are just about to go to

:29:20.:29:25.

strike. It is an issue of trust. My dad was a doctor, he went into the

:29:26.:29:30.

NHS as a vocation, we get to the point where we see junior doctors

:29:31.:29:33.

concerned about the NHS being on its knees and now we see that it is, we

:29:34.:29:36.

should have listened to them. We should listen to the teachers...

:29:37.:29:41.

APPLAUSE We should listen to the train

:29:42.:29:45.

drivers that are safety issues because we don't listen to the

:29:46.:29:47.

people who are at the metaphorical coalface who are dealing with

:29:48.:29:52.

reality. Listen to the people doing the job. Why do you think the

:29:53.:29:58.

experts are constantly lying? I think Michael Gove make an

:29:59.:30:00.

interesting point about not believing experts. We would have an

:30:01.:30:06.

empty front row if we do not have expert! There is a clear public mood

:30:07.:30:11.

when we think a government policy of divide and rule, dividing passengers

:30:12.:30:14.

against Uni and when the real villains in this other government

:30:15.:30:17.

and why not intervening and could sort this out -- against unions. If

:30:18.:30:23.

they listen, we could sort this. Organisations like us would say OK,

:30:24.:30:29.

if government is the source of all evil, open it up and take it out of

:30:30.:30:32.

their hands and let there be more competition, more deregulation. Who

:30:33.:30:38.

does Southern rail compete against? This is nonsense. So why don't we

:30:39.:30:45.

open up? Don't have the ?1.2 billion sucked out by the prophets and

:30:46.:30:49.

invest it in a decent and proper train service -- profits.

:30:50.:30:56.

Excuse me! Let's hear from the people. Sorry! In the glasses?

:30:57.:31:11.

Having doors that are just operated by drivers, we have been doing that

:31:12.:31:15.

in the London Underground for 40 years, and it works. On the

:31:16.:31:21.

platforms we have got people who are there who will allow trains to go on

:31:22.:31:25.

and off. The list can be done safely and we have got CCTV. There is so

:31:26.:31:32.

much technology around it. Other unions using this as an excuse

:31:33.:31:35.

because they are worried that train guards will be a job that is

:31:36.:31:40.

removed? I am not quite sure what the unions are gaining on this. I

:31:41.:31:44.

think the lack of transparency doesn't match up with what is being

:31:45.:31:53.

said. The moral heart of this is the collateral damage, if you want to

:31:54.:31:57.

use that phrase. Customers, travellers, members of the general

:31:58.:32:01.

public. We heard about misery and that is what we are discussing here

:32:02.:32:06.

really. How can that be avoided? I don't think it can be avoided in the

:32:07.:32:10.

short term for a long-term game, as you said before. If I'm travelling

:32:11.:32:17.

on the train, I know this gentleman spoke about having no guards, but I

:32:18.:32:20.

was on the DLR last week and there was a guard opening and shutting the

:32:21.:32:27.

doors. We say that isn't true that in some cases it certainly is. It is

:32:28.:32:32.

the right of a worker to withdraw their labour if they feel that

:32:33.:32:36.

safety is a crucial issue. Personally I would feel that the

:32:37.:32:40.

person who is driving the train or the person involved in the flights

:32:41.:32:43.

with British Airways, whatever that dispute is, they are on the front

:32:44.:32:48.

line, so I believed then more than an employer who may have a vested

:32:49.:32:57.

interest. The flight crew lay is astonishingly low. Some people would

:32:58.:33:02.

be surprised at how little it is. It is something like basic pay,

:33:03.:33:10.

?16,000. Yes? I think there should be an honest debate. We are trying!

:33:11.:33:18.

Normally in these instances, you usually get experts, but experts are

:33:19.:33:23.

not the users. We should hear from the users themselves. He has got the

:33:24.:33:32.

son who has a wheelchair. We should take on board more his opinion

:33:33.:33:36.

rather than listening to the so-called experts. You are user,

:33:37.:33:40.

aren't you? How has your using been recently? Misery is a nice way of

:33:41.:33:49.

putting it. I have been used as a football. My staff, my candidates,

:33:50.:33:53.

my clients, they are having trouble getting to and from work. Sit down

:33:54.:33:58.

at the table and negotiate, don't use us as the football. Yes, there

:33:59.:34:02.

are issues that need to be sorted out but you don't need to strike and

:34:03.:34:06.

you don't need to make someone's income impossible because of the

:34:07.:34:11.

strike. And family life? It is putting a real strain on people that

:34:12.:34:15.

use Southern Trains so it would be nice to see them back at the table

:34:16.:34:20.

and they are blaming each other for not doing that. This is something

:34:21.:34:24.

they do in France with transport strikes. They turn up to work and do

:34:25.:34:29.

their work for no pay, but they open the turnstiles and they let people

:34:30.:34:34.

travel for free. So the company suffers but the general public

:34:35.:34:40.

don't. Little idea for you. Nice idea. Great idea. Part of the

:34:41.:34:45.

problem here is that the very thing we are talking about, for the last

:34:46.:34:48.

nine months they would rather have us in the High Court four times than

:34:49.:34:52.

sitting round the table. It is only now that we have a strike that

:34:53.:34:55.

people say they want to talk to us and they have gone to ACAS. We have

:34:56.:35:00.

been willing to talk throughout. What the strategy of the company and

:35:01.:35:08.

the government is a fait accompli, they will do what they want until it

:35:09.:35:12.

is too late for you to do anything about it. The reality is that

:35:13.:35:16.

Britain is not a great place to be. Sexual assault has gone up on the

:35:17.:35:20.

railways over the last 12 months. Drivers when travel on were well

:35:21.:35:24.

trained at certain times of night because it is not safe. -- private

:35:25.:35:31.

way to travel on certain trains. But what about the conductors? Well

:35:32.:35:35.

where are they? The people they promised not there now. Has there

:35:36.:35:38.

been an industrial dispute in this country that you have not supported?

:35:39.:35:43.

Yes but that is personal and I will keep it to myself. It was just

:35:44.:35:48.

getting interesting! We all have value judgments we make about why

:35:49.:35:53.

people do certain things. In relation to this dispute, this is

:35:54.:35:57.

about a safety issue that we feel incredibly strongly about, and it is

:35:58.:36:01.

driven by the 18,000 people that drive these trains every day. Trust

:36:02.:36:04.

the people that work on the trains because they know more about it than

:36:05.:36:10.

you do. My simple question. Why not trust the unions can tell us. What

:36:11.:36:16.

are people meant to see when you look at the requests and apparently

:36:17.:36:20.

these departments are responding truthfully. If not the unions should

:36:21.:36:24.

probably take them to court. It is very confusing for people sitting

:36:25.:36:29.

outside. One of the offence we keep hearing about his ticket office is

:36:30.:36:32.

getting shut down. That has nothing to do with safety, come on, you have

:36:33.:36:37.

got to agree to that as well. It is just about keeping jobs. There are

:36:38.:36:41.

minimum staffing requirement on stations after the King's Cross

:36:42.:36:45.

fire. If they are not in place, and ticket offices are not open at

:36:46.:36:48.

certain stations, they aren't safe but I'm not involved in that. Has

:36:49.:36:56.

the role of union changed in your society and will it change in the

:36:57.:37:01.

future? It is important but it is interesting to note that the average

:37:02.:37:04.

union member is a woman, over 50 and works in the public sector, not the

:37:05.:37:08.

private sector. We are increasingly seeing that private sector workers

:37:09.:37:11.

are deciding not to join unions and I think that is all the worse

:37:12.:37:14.

because unions do much more than just striking. What should the

:37:15.:37:21.

union's main role be? They can give union support to workers, let you

:37:22.:37:23.

know if they are being taken advantage of, and advice bureau.

:37:24.:37:27.

There is an important role there. Let me finish. A huge percentage of

:37:28.:37:35.

the public believe trade unions are good thing. OK, but they are not

:37:36.:37:39.

doing that with their feet. Unions take a combative approach, that is

:37:40.:37:42.

the real danger, they strike a lot, which drives up the cost of having

:37:43.:37:47.

them, and they will be replaced. Where we have got driverless trains,

:37:48.:37:50.

there may not be any drivers in ten years' time to strike. The more

:37:51.:37:55.

difficult they make it to work with them now, the quicker the axe falls.

:37:56.:38:00.

He isn't difficult. He is a pussycat. The lady right behind you

:38:01.:38:06.

wanted to say something. Nick is exasperated. With the safety and

:38:07.:38:11.

that you have got to take on board all aspects of that, but isn't

:38:12.:38:15.

striking making the recovery harder? With a taxpayers and the people

:38:16.:38:20.

paying for tickets, the people who support the railways, for people not

:38:21.:38:23.

to get to jobs, to lose their income, surely there is another way

:38:24.:38:27.

around it? Revenue strikes or something. Seppi tackles the

:38:28.:38:34.

employers rather than customers. -- soak it tackles the employers rather

:38:35.:38:39.

than customers. This is the moral question. It's sometimes said that

:38:40.:38:42.

management gets the unions they deserve and there has been horrible

:38:43.:38:49.

mismanagement in the railways. It shows how difficult it is to take

:38:50.:38:52.

legal industrial action in this country. If you go on other railways

:38:53.:38:57.

in this country you get contented railway forces and they are proud of

:38:58.:39:02.

the railway on which they work. I always speak to people about their

:39:03.:39:05.

jobs and that is very much the case but you cannot say that about this

:39:06.:39:09.

company at the moment. It is a public service and people are not

:39:10.:39:12.

paid a lot of money. They go into it because they want to do that but

:39:13.:39:15.

they have got to be in an environment where they can do their

:39:16.:39:18.

job safely. We have got to find a way out. Striking like this is a

:39:19.:39:21.

nuclear option with massive impact and all sites need to find a way

:39:22.:39:34.

back from the brink. This is having a devastating impact on hundreds of

:39:35.:39:36.

thousands of people. The safety case doesn't sound... Independent voters

:39:37.:39:38.

have looked at this and said it isn't unsafe. Doubtless it could be

:39:39.:39:43.

safer. Nick and his members have not been on strike. I really would urge

:39:44.:39:46.

you to go the extra mile and find a way of going back to the table and

:39:47.:39:53.

calling a halt. We have try to find a way through this 24 hours a day

:39:54.:39:57.

and there has been an unwillingness. This was driven by the DFT 12 months

:39:58.:40:01.

ago and they openly said this would be the consequence of what they

:40:02.:40:04.

wanted to do and they would rip up the contract of the drivers but

:40:05.:40:07.

spectacularly the media don't report that. The media are not showing all

:40:08.:40:11.

the evidence we produce on what the driver can and more importantly

:40:12.:40:14.

cannot see. Nobody wants to go on strike. It is the last option of any

:40:15.:40:20.

trade union. My members don't want to be losing money prior to

:40:21.:40:22.

Christmas and post-Christmas and they have the same pressure on them

:40:23.:40:32.

as everyone else. They don't want people to be massive fares and we

:40:33.:40:35.

empathise with the travelling public. They are the people we want

:40:36.:40:39.

to help most and we don't want to alienate them. Tell us about the

:40:40.:40:42.

abuse they are getting. Naturally when people can't get to work

:40:43.:40:46.

because trains are delayed, it is only highlighted by this dispute how

:40:47.:40:50.

poorly the staff suffer. They couldn't run 25% of their services

:40:51.:40:53.

without the goodwill and overtime of drivers, which tells us they have a

:40:54.:40:58.

dearth of resources anyway, which is why the service was and is so bad.

:40:59.:41:05.

Should there be a moral limits on what you impose on the consumer, the

:41:06.:41:12.

customer, and travel? Should there be a line beyond which you should

:41:13.:41:16.

not go? These are hard-won rights and we have seen improvement over

:41:17.:41:19.

the decades because of strong unions and the right to strike. If you take

:41:20.:41:24.

that away, we risk going back. There are less unionisation in the private

:41:25.:41:34.

sector because employers are clamping down on employees. We need

:41:35.:41:37.

workers to be listened to and we need them to have control because

:41:38.:41:39.

that will make the workplace a better place. Thank you.

:41:40.:41:43.

If you have something to say about that debate log on

:41:44.:41:46.

to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions and follow the link to where you can

:41:47.:41:49.

Tell us what you think about our last big question too.

:41:50.:41:58.

Would today's wise men believe in God?

:41:59.:41:59.

Next week we're back here at Brunel University

:42:00.:42:01.

for a special edition asking just one big question - is digital

:42:02.:42:04.

And if you'd like to apply to be in the audience at a future show you

:42:05.:42:09.

We're in Bradford on January 22nd, Glasgow on the 29th

:42:10.:42:20.

Friday was Epiphany, the day the three wise men finally

:42:21.:42:26.

found the baby Jesus, God in human form,

:42:27.:42:28.

after following the star in the East.

:42:29.:42:32.

They were Magi, revered and respected Babylonian astronomers

:42:33.:42:33.

and astrologers who studied the movements of the stars

:42:34.:42:39.

and the planets looking for signs and portents of important events -

:42:40.:42:42.

so rather like ancient versions of Professor Brian Cox,

:42:43.:42:45.

except they believed in magic, miraculous events and in God.

:42:46.:42:47.

Would today's wise men believe in God?

:42:48.:42:55.

Brian does not believe in any of the above. Doctor Vince Vitale, author

:42:56.:43:06.

of Jesus Among Secular Gods. Here is a thing, the more educated you are,

:43:07.:43:09.

the less likely you are to believe in God. Why? On this question I

:43:10.:43:15.

would have answered no. Why is that? Why is that the case? Why is it the

:43:16.:43:21.

case that the more educated you are in the less likely you are to

:43:22.:43:24.

believe in God? There are many reasons for that and it depends

:43:25.:43:28.

where you are looking. It is not the case in most places in world and in

:43:29.:43:34.

most times throughout history. A new survey in 2013. Most of the highly

:43:35.:43:37.

educated people around the world believe in God because most people

:43:38.:43:44.

do believe in God. I was studying philosophy in Princeton and I

:43:45.:43:49.

thought they've had to be blind and rational, and I thought irrational

:43:50.:43:51.

faith was a contradiction in terms and I were surprised when I first

:43:52.:43:55.

began to look into this and I first opened the Bible and I saw it

:43:56.:43:58.

talking about debating, like this show, and reasoning, and the word

:43:59.:44:05.

persuasion is most used when suddenly makes the decision to

:44:06.:44:08.

become a Christian. I like that you chose the word wise for this show.

:44:09.:44:15.

When you have a conversation with someone and you think that person is

:44:16.:44:19.

wise, what are you talking about? You are not just talking about who

:44:20.:44:24.

is most educated. Somebody might be very intelligent. When you are

:44:25.:44:27.

asking about wisdom, you are asking about direction for life and if you

:44:28.:44:30.

want directed by life you need answers to some fundamental

:44:31.:44:36.

questions of life, origin, meaning, morality and destiny. That comes

:44:37.:44:39.

from metaphor and interpretation. If somebody said to you that I believe

:44:40.:44:49.

literally in Adam and Eve and I believe the earth is less than

:44:50.:44:52.

10,000 years old and I just saw an angel, would you say they were wise?

:44:53.:44:54.

Let me start with a starting point. Origin meaning morality and destiny.

:44:55.:44:56.

We have got to answer those questions before we get to that.

:44:57.:45:03.

Those are the fundamental question that everyone has got to answer

:45:04.:45:10.

them. It is easy to poke holes in certain forms of literalism, but

:45:11.:45:21.

criticism has an empty alternative. Where do we come from? Is there a

:45:22.:45:24.

meaning in life? Is their purpose and where are we headed? If you

:45:25.:45:28.

answer that you can live with wisdom and pass it onto others. That the

:45:29.:45:30.

point for each of us. Interesting. Interesting thought if

:45:31.:45:43.

I may say so. But if the between the more educated you are, the less

:45:44.:45:48.

likely you are to believe in God? Vince makes a nice point about the

:45:49.:45:52.

word wise but maybe the most natural way to interpret wisdom is referring

:45:53.:45:57.

to intelligence and rationality... Curiosity. We don't know what the

:45:58.:46:04.

village between intelligence was an belief in God was 2000 years ago but

:46:05.:46:09.

today's wife men and women are less likely to believe in God. There is a

:46:10.:46:14.

lot of literature on this. Why is that? A number of reasons, one

:46:15.:46:20.

possibility is that people who are more intelligent art is likely to

:46:21.:46:24.

conform, we don't live in a cultural vacuum and a lot of our beliefs are

:46:25.:46:29.

influenced by the provided link culture around us and another for

:46:30.:46:31.

civility is highly intelligent people are more inclined to be

:46:32.:46:40.

analytical and not go with their gut a number of reasons. They might be

:46:41.:46:46.

turned off by Liz Watson. It says in the Koran and the vital that you

:46:47.:46:51.

should go out and seek knowledge -- literalism. There is a lot of

:46:52.:47:02.

resistance two sides. That is true. -- persistence to science.

:47:03.:47:05.

That will always be an obstacle. It is also to believe in God can take a

:47:06.:47:18.

certain amount of intellectual unity because you are agreeing that there

:47:19.:47:21.

is being fat is lot smarter than you and that will narrow the conclusion

:47:22.:47:27.

that you control -- fact is a lot smarter. Meacher

:47:28.:47:31.

that if the -- Meacher said that if there was a god, how could I then

:47:32.:47:44.

not to be one. -- Nietsche. Russell, you understand astrology and

:47:45.:47:47.

particle physics and obviously evolution but if somebody said that

:47:48.:47:50.

they believe in angels, would you think they were wise? I would think

:47:51.:47:54.

I would have to ask them why they believed in it,... It is in the

:47:55.:48:02.

Bible. And personally I do believe in angels but in an certain context.

:48:03.:48:07.

I was brought up in an environment of nominal churchgoing but had never

:48:08.:48:13.

really experienced the narratives about Jesus as a person and it was

:48:14.:48:17.

at the age of 18 when I was beginning my first degree in physics

:48:18.:48:21.

that I read some of the eyewitness account of the life of Jesus and I

:48:22.:48:25.

was amazed at the things that were there and the authority I have ever

:48:26.:48:30.

heard of before. For the last 27th years I have been living this

:48:31.:48:33.

tension Anne Haug on on the one hand I can be faithful to this person,

:48:34.:48:37.

Jesus, but on the other hand be a fully fledged academic physicist --

:48:38.:48:44.

about how. It is a wonderful tension to be able to study the physical

:48:45.:48:51.

mechanisms of the universe... What is a particle physicist's take on

:48:52.:49:01.

angels? You believe in them. As a Christian, we look to Jesus as the

:49:02.:49:06.

primary source of information about God. I am sure Ryan will be talked

:49:07.:49:12.

about the fact that our brains are predisposed to want to make up

:49:13.:49:15.

stories and so there are a lot of stories about fairies and angels.

:49:16.:49:21.

What is the difference between them? Mythological creatures that have no

:49:22.:49:24.

statement in fact. I think we have to be careful. As the psychologists

:49:25.:49:31.

and evolutionary people will tell us, we are proud -- predisposed to

:49:32.:49:35.

make up stories so we have to investigate and look for authorities

:49:36.:49:38.

and to see who actually knows about spiritual things and test them. Just

:49:39.:49:43.

like good scientists as to test things and separate the myths and

:49:44.:49:48.

the stories from the underlying realities. Justin. I think the idea

:49:49.:49:55.

of testing biblical statements, you mentioned eyewitness in the Gospels,

:49:56.:50:00.

around the Nativity the Gospels or contradict and fill in gaps. If we

:50:01.:50:05.

go to that with serious criticism, we discovered it is a random series

:50:06.:50:11.

of stories. Stories are useful for making people do things but the

:50:12.:50:15.

notion that we have a Nativity today with the stable and the oxen and the

:50:16.:50:21.

three wise men confected in the middle ages. They start painting

:50:22.:50:27.

pictures of boxes and God knows what else. It is a fantasy. There is no

:50:28.:50:33.

reason to think there were three, it is an example of the fact that when

:50:34.:50:37.

we don't take these texts seriously enough, we assume there were three

:50:38.:50:41.

wise men and then maybe we can quickly to the conclusion... People

:50:42.:50:49.

who came to adore this strange offspring of a virgin... Russell and

:50:50.:50:57.

Vince make some interesting points I thought about a deeper level of

:50:58.:51:01.

understanding of the greater truths. I sense from both of them that they

:51:02.:51:08.

were uncomfortable with literalism of people saying that that happened,

:51:09.:51:12.

the Earth is 6000 years old and all that, but let me put that to you, it

:51:13.:51:17.

can put a lot of people off religion because they hit it and they think,

:51:18.:51:21.

come on. The Bible to me is a very rich text but in different genres

:51:22.:51:30.

and some art historical and some are poetic and some are creation

:51:31.:51:32.

narratives and we have to look at each one in a deep way and say, what

:51:33.:51:36.

was the intention of the author in the first place? But we might get as

:51:37.:51:42.

much out of reading Lucretius and Cicero all engaged with the fact...

:51:43.:51:48.

Whether we would get as much out of them... Some of the creation myths

:51:49.:51:52.

of religion are fascinating. And if we get as much out of them depends

:51:53.:51:56.

on the truth question, whether or not this true. I beg your pardon,

:51:57.:52:07.

the gentleman there. By any historical standards, the texts

:52:08.:52:19.

don't fit. The contradict one another and by and scientific

:52:20.:52:25.

standard, you are looking at miracles as evidence for God, these

:52:26.:52:31.

don't stand up either. If we are saying, should a wise man, whether

:52:32.:52:36.

that be an academic or other scientists, should they believe in

:52:37.:52:42.

God today, you have to almost suspend your critical faculties to

:52:43.:52:48.

do so. Do you do that? You are a distinguished physicist, are their

:52:49.:52:55.

two Russells? Definitely not and did I became a Christian I have thought

:52:56.:52:59.

more about philosophy and meaning and truth, the sort of things that

:53:00.:53:04.

are the bread and butter of philosophers but actually which

:53:05.:53:07.

scientists don't often think about. For me, becoming a follower of Jesus

:53:08.:53:11.

has pushed me towards deeper thinking and a deeper analysis of

:53:12.:53:17.

all aspects. I know a lot of academics and physicist who are

:53:18.:53:23.

religious but also accept science are very excited by the subatomic

:53:24.:53:33.

world. Do you think God is there? We call this God of the gaps, when we

:53:34.:53:37.

try to look for God and the part of science we are not clear about. And

:53:38.:53:41.

when we understand that he has to move to another gap. I would say

:53:42.:53:45.

that God is the primary cause of all the things a primary explanation --

:53:46.:53:49.

parallel explanation. What an interesting phrase. Spinoza was the

:53:50.:53:56.

first man, he was the biblical critic and understood the old

:53:57.:54:00.

Testament and the new Testament and heated the big failure of modern

:54:01.:54:03.

religion is to try to derive science from a text that is essentially

:54:04.:54:08.

nonscientific. I would never try to do that. So how do we meld the

:54:09.:54:16.

scientific and the religious world? But you don't try to do that? You

:54:17.:54:22.

talk about nonoverlapping magisterial. That is a term that can

:54:23.:54:27.

be helpful but there is a bit of overlap as much as what scientists

:54:28.:54:33.

today and what people of 2000 years ago have in common is that we want

:54:34.:54:36.

to understand the world in its entirety. We are curious people who

:54:37.:54:41.

want to know what it means to be human in the universe and part of

:54:42.:54:45.

the answer to that question comes by understanding the physical world

:54:46.:54:48.

around us, the mechanisms, but part of it wants to know who made this.

:54:49.:54:53.

Who are the authorities? Who would we want to look to for ultimate

:54:54.:54:58.

explanations? To only take half of that question and only look at the

:54:59.:55:02.

physical mechanisms and not the wider question I think is to miss

:55:03.:55:06.

out on half of life. You wanted to say something? Looking at the little

:55:07.:55:12.

question, we have to say, what has been the impact of literalism. It is

:55:13.:55:16.

a relatively recent phenomenon in this country. Yes but we are lucky

:55:17.:55:22.

that we are in the age that we are and we can have this debate.

:55:23.:55:26.

Beforehand, the framework of the whole society was religion and if

:55:27.:55:30.

you dissented, you paid the price. Talking about angels, we also had to

:55:31.:55:36.

talk about the demon and -- demons and the devil. Over 50,000 people

:55:37.:55:42.

were executed, many women, not always, 26% were men, but they were

:55:43.:55:53.

executed because of Exodus 22-18, thou shalt not suffer a witch to

:55:54.:56:00.

live. An eccentric person, people pointed the finger at you. Devils,

:56:01.:56:05.

demons? Come on! I think we have to be specific. Jesus is the one I

:56:06.:56:10.

would look to who knows about these things and there are times he talked

:56:11.:56:15.

about these things and times he dismissed them as superstition so it

:56:16.:56:20.

is a case-by-case basis. That is terrible what you cited, but no

:56:21.:56:26.

world view would want to be judged based on the worst things that have

:56:27.:56:30.

been done in its name. And we have to look back to the founder of

:56:31.:56:38.

religion, to Jesus who said to love your enemies and pray for those who

:56:39.:56:44.

persecute you. And do and others as you would have them do to you. We

:56:45.:56:50.

take that for granted. If that something perhaps predated religion?

:56:51.:56:57.

It is not. I think it is, I think we have a deeply ingrained sense of

:56:58.:57:02.

fairness. In very young children, coming back to our first debate,

:57:03.:57:06.

they be strongly to unequal distributions of things like

:57:07.:57:10.

stickers for instance. There is a psychological cost that we pay when

:57:11.:57:15.

we witness unfairness. This vaunted question of the relation between

:57:16.:57:20.

religion and morality, Wanda's point, a psychologist, Paul Bloom,

:57:21.:57:27.

has satirised this idea, I see your style and I raised you the Crusades.

:57:28.:57:32.

The idea that you take historical examples... Stalinism was very much

:57:33.:57:36.

a quasi-religious system. The gentleman with the beard. I feel

:57:37.:57:56.

like the wise men of modern times probably wouldn't believe in God

:57:57.:58:00.

because there is like a taboo about it. You get an umbrella term with

:58:01.:58:04.

Christians, if you believe in God you believe in angels and a man put

:58:05.:58:08.

all these animals on an arc. It becomes a ridiculous thing. But I

:58:09.:58:15.

think you really should. Science can give you the how but they cannot

:58:16.:58:20.

give you the wide. If you're a broader knowledge of something the Y

:58:21.:58:35.

-- the why. Is there a why? No. That is all we have got time for!

:58:36.:58:39.

As always, the debates will continue online and on Twitter.

:58:40.:58:41.

Next week we're back here at Brunel for that special debate

:58:42.:58:48.

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