Episode 1 The Big Questions


Episode 1

Nicky Campbell presents lively debate. Topics include is free speech under threat at universities, should meat be taxed to save the planet and has the West misunderstood Buddhism.


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Transcript


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Today on The Big Questions: Freedom

of speech, taxing the Sunday roast

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and belligerent Buddhism.

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APPLAUSE

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Good morning.

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Good to see you.

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I'm Nicky Campbell.

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Welcome to the eleventh series

of The Big Questions.

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Today, we're live from

the University of East London.

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Welcome, everyone,

to The Big Questions.

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CHEERING

Lovely.

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On Monday, the new Office

For Students opened for business

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as the new regulator

for higher education.

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One of its duties will be to ensure

that universities enable

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free speech on campus,

even for highly controversial

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speakers, provided they stay

within the law and do not incite

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hatred or violence.

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On Boxing Day, Jo Johnson,

the Minister for Universities

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and Science, set out plans to fine

or suspend institutions that fail

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to protect free speech.

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"Young people," he said,

"should have the resilience

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and confidence to challenge

controversial opinions

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and take part in open,

frank and rigorous discussions."

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But many universities

and student unions, including

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the one we are in today,

have not only banned

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speakers with racist,

fascist or anti-LGBT views but have

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declared themselves to be safe

spaces, where students must feel

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confident they will never feel

demeaned or intimidated

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by what someone else says.

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Is free speech under

threat in universities?

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Claire Fox, is it, seriously? Sadly,

I think it seriously is. There is an

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increasing trend for people to save

the equivalent of, I find that

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offensive, and that basically means

shot up. There is an

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institutionalised atmosphere of

walking on eggshells, frightened you

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will offend this person, the

emergence of identity politics means

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that you have almost the competitive

set of groups saying, as this, I

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find that offensive.

It is a kind of

competition in being offended?

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It comes together with the toxic

sense of victimhood which has become

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quite a big thing. I am a victim and

I find what you say something that

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makes me feel worse so I wanted to

keep quiet. One of the most worrying

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beds for me is the idea that the

aspiration for you at 17, 18, 19,

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20, is to want to feel safe.

Generally, being young and going to

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university or college I'm growing

up, it is a time when you threw off

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all the shackles, you want to take

risks, you want to be exposed to new

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ideas. You're not frightened of the

outside world, and it seems to me,

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sadly, many young people are being

encouraged to be carried by ideas,

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to be scared, to be fearful, and if

they hear something they do not

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like, it will damage them forever. I

do not think that the authors of

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students will help because the last

thing we need is a regulation is

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free speech.

It is

counter-productive. You think it is

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dangerous. Let's leave it there.

Dawn, this is not a safe place here,

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over the years. Sometimes I have

wanted it to be. We have had all

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sorts of ghastly people on, present

company expected -- present company

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excepted. We have had flashes, is a

must. But the great thing is they

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have been challenged, they have been

debated with, and more often than

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not their views have been undermined

and they have been exposed. Is that

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still happening in universities?

Yes, when I was at university we had

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no platform policy. It was stringent

and applied to a very small number

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of people. We had that to make sure

that other people felt they were

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able to come to campus and express

their own free speech. We banned

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fascists and certain extreme

Islamist groups. Very few people

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have been no platform. Lots of

people have very big platforms in

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the media. They complain that they

have not been invited somewhere,

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which is different. Safe spaces are

not about people not being offended

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or ever having their views

challenge, it is about people being

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able to express their views in an

environment. If I have friends

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around the dinner, those people know

they should not put a chair through

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my window, or tell me that my food

is terrible and never come again.

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There are certain rules and society.

This codifies them within a kind of

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private in -- a private institution,

membership club. Students should

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have a right through to invite. I

agree that the Office For Students

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is not going to help that at all.

I

would not want to go to your dinner

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party if you presented me with a set

of rules before I walked in the

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door. I know you would not invite me

anyway, and that is thin enough. Do

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not see this, do not say that, make

sure you say that the food is nice,

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and if you see anything I do not

like, you're out the door. That is

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what the atmosphere is late in the

student union. There is a code for

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what you can say, thing can do.

There are not lots of people who

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have not been given a platform.

There's all sorts of hysteria about

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free speech on campus. One of the

Oxford colleges tried to ban the

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Christian union and the bases that

would offend and upset certain

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people because Christianity is

offensive. On the other hand you

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will have secular societies that are

banned on the basis that religious

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people will say, that is offensive

towards us. By the time you have

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finished with that you do not need

formal no platform policies. You

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create an atmosphere of, I am

frightened to say that.

If you spent

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lots of time in universities, as I

do, there is a kind of nervousness

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of seeing that unless you have the

right opinion, you are not going

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to... What is right opinion? Your

welfare officer.

What is a safe

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space? It is not a one size fits all

what is safe spaces. There is a

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different perception for everyone.

It is a place you can come to and

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leave your grievances at the door

and say what you want to see and how

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you want to say it with like-minded

people. You should be able to have

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that in every institution.

What is a

like-minded person?

There is no such

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thing as like-minded people, it is

just the idea of having an area that

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you can go to and be OK with your

surroundings without having rules

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and regulations. Without being

covered in terms of what they say.

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Would you give save space to LGBT

people who are worried about people

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of faith who have views that are the

opposite to theirs, because of the

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holy books?

Everyone deserves a safe

space, from every community, in

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terms of...

Do people who do not

approve of homosexuality deserve a

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safe space from LGBT people?

If that

is what it takes for them to feel

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available to express their views.

This is the problem. That is the

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sort of rabbit hole that such a

fundamental attitude to this

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produces. When I was an

undergraduate, we did have safe

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spaces, but they were particular

rooms on particular days when

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particular groups were having

particular meetings. The LGBT group

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might have it, or the women rights

campaign, or black and minority

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students might have a room where

they could control the balance of

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the debate. The problem now is that

some student unions have sought to

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make the whole universities save

space. That is not sustainable.

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Eventually you end up with lots of

little boxes where no one wants to

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be encountered by anyone else risk

feeling unsafe. These incidents do

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happen. It is untrue what was said,

that these things do not happen. Our

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affiliated societies and campuses,

in the last five years, we have had

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a dozen situations where meetings

have been disrupted and unable to

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proceed, or they have been banned

for -- from freshers' fears, or

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threatened with deregistration from

student unions, mostly from

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criticism of religion, or some

satire or mockery of religious

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beliefs, sometimes just from

questioning religious beliefs. That

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is happening all over England. The

consequence of that is not just

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individual meetings been disrupted,

but free speech suffering, because

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people feel intimidated.

Three years

since Charlie Hebdo. People are also

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worried about the expense of the

security. You want to come in. Carry

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on. What is your point?

I think we

need to look at what free speech

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actually means. Free speech or

something, essentially, will it

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should not be the case for one

particular set of people get to

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define what it means. Everyone here

will agree that debate and

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discussion and free speech at a

fundamental part of the democracy we

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live in but what I see is a double

standard associated with free speech

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as we know it today, and I think it

is riddled with hypocrisy, we are

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seeing Jo Johnson, for example,

saying that people should not be

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banned, but at the same time, we

have a government pursuing a toxic

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prevent agenda which makes Muslim

students feel they cannot speak

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freely.

We have debated Prevent.

It

is not about debating or discussing

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Prevent, it is about students in

classrooms who have views that are

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not palatable, and they can be

recommended by their academic sign

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teachers to the Prevent channel

stream. They would be considered as

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extremist.

You used to be a Muslim?

Yes, we work with people on the left

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religion. We find that I'd

universities it is all about power

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structure. We deal with safe spaces

because people get punished in

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different countries are leaving

religion. If you have no power on

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campus, if you used to be an extra

was witness, a Christian, I save

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space needs are not heard. We do not

need that. We need a place we can

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talk and express their views because

we do not get to do that in other

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countries. I find a lot of things

that religious groups in university

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campuses say offensive. They are

offensive to me and the fact that

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exist but I do not try and shut them

down. I want to have a debate. This

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question for me is all about having

a conversation. The fact we have Tom

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supporters in this audience is a

good thing because I can talk to

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them. You can only move forward if

you can do that, otherwise you get

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the kind of fascism we are seeing

today.

Just in relation to the point

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about Prevent, an important point,

the who defines free speech point,

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free speech is something that has

emerged out of hundreds of years of

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fights by people who fought to speak

freely. Every single one of us has

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gained from freedom fighters over

the years, whether they're fighting

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oppression of women, slavery, race,

all of that has been gained by

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fighting intellectually, using words

and ideas, and every single one of

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those ideas has offended someone at

some point. My concern is that I

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constantly hear the argument that

you go on as a free-speech

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absolutist, but that is at -- and

that is an expression of white

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privilege of an elite group, or

because the Tories said I do not

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agree. Every single one of us should

fight for free speech. I am

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constantly offended by some of the

nonsense I hear all the time, but I

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think I can cope. We should not

patronise young people but sit -- by

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suggesting they hear something

obnoxious or offensive and that is

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it.

APPLAUSE

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. Do you have safe spaces for

ex-Muslims?

We have safe spaces for

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everyone from every community. It is

quite patronising to say that

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students cannot have open debates.

They do have open debates on a

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regular basis.

Work with me to get

it into your campus and then we can

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do that.

Students have debates all

the time. It is patronising to say

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that they do not. Speech is not

speech any more.

That is the

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problem. We have had student unions

tell us that we are offensive. They

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have cancelled us because they say

we are offensive. Every institution

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is different. All because we talk

about abuse. We have young people

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who made Thomas, who tried to kill

themselves. We are told we are

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abusing religious institutions, just

Muslims. We have had feminist and

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LGBT societies say, we are worried

about offending Muslims. I spent 25

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years of my life as a Muslim. When

people tell me I am offending my own

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people, so I am not allowed to

speak, I find that extremely unsafe

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for myself but I do not try to shut

other people down.

Let's get more

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audience reaction on this. Good

morning, how are you doing?

Say

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whatever you want. The real issue

should be about this body that has

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been set up.

I do not want to

discuss the body. I want to discuss

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the substantive issues so I want to

censor you on that one. I want to

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talk about Toby Young. He has been

spoken about a lot this week. Do you

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think there is a prescription on

free speech in universities at the

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moment, are we heading in that

direction?

I think that is a bad

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thing. Student unions are their own

organisation. It should be bent to

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them to make a call and he speaks.

It is a student led body.

You voted

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for it, here.

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The gentleman who just mentioned

Toby Young, that is the substantive

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issue. There was legislation in

place that we are protected by

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European law in terms of freedom of

speech, there is legislation from

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1986 which protects freedom of

speech on campus. I genuinely think

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that Jo Johnson is trying to reset

the agenda to sidestep and try to

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cover up. It is an act of political

mendacity to try to cover up the

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substantive issues in education. The

privatisation of universities,

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the...

You think it is a smoke

screen?

The appointment of Toby

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Young, 200,000 academics, students

and other stakeholders have signed a

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petition to say this guy is toxic.

Is freedom of speech being curtailed

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in universities?

I think this points to a wider

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problem in society. Views have

always been polarised, but

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particularly with social media we

have the ability to edit out people,

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views we do not like organisations.

In a way that is healthy for us, in

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many ways it is not. All we are

doing is giving ourselves quite a

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cosy, single-minded, narrow-minded

view of the world. I think part of

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the problem is, with present company

excepted, there is such a lack of

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grey area and debate. Any contrary

views are classed as a threat or

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people get defensive. Before you

know it's a debate turns into

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somebody being a Ramona or a racist

or a lefty or a Nazi, and to throw

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these things out there without

thought -- turns into somebody being

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a Remoaner.

Dawn, what is your

understanding... I'm sure Claire has

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something to say on this, but what

about trigger warnings, are they a

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good thing? When something is coming

up which might be offensive or

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upsetting and it is highlighted?

Lots of my friends are academics and

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lots of them use trigger warnings in

their courses. I don't think there

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anything different to watching

television, yesterday I watched

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something on the BBC added said

contains strong language. It is

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warning people what you expect to

see so people are not surprised.

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Shakespeare plays are included

sometimes?

Exactly. Some people have

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to steel themselves a little bit. If

you watch a film and it includes a

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really graphic rape scene and it

takes you by surprise, it can be

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shocking. Some people can find it

quite hard. I think one of the main

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things we have not talked about is

that free speech, brilliant, but one

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of the issues is one of the reasons

why some campuses are concerned

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about this is speech is not without

consequence. For instance, lots of

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my friends after Brexit have

experience lots of racist abuse as a

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result of the political climate.

Many of my gay friends regularly

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beaten up. I think when people

incite...

Are regularly beaten up?

I

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regularly have gay and...

There are

laws against inciting violence?

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Police had been cut, it is very

difficult to find these people. I

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have been sexually assaulted twice

in public and nobody has been

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caught. There are laws but we have

to think about the consequences

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beach, the consequence of it -- of

inciting racial, LGBT and sexual

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hatred.

A little bit on trigger

warnings, relating to the very good

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points you made, I think there is a

real danger that we are stuck in

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echo chambers and never get exposed

to new ideas. One thing that happens

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when you go to university, the very

nature are bit is that you will be

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exposed to new ideas, new literature

and readings. If you do literature

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and you do Shakespeare, the idea

that you think you might need a

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trigger warning on a Shakespeare

play, why are you studying

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literature if you do not know it has

a bit of violence? But trigger

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warnings are not just used in just a

token warning, the inferences that

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you will not cope with it and the

arguments by academics is that they

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have to put trigger warnings on

because they are frightened that

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students might complain if they

don't. Dawn, it is your very point

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about the consumerisation of higher

education, academics feel under

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pressure to play to what they

consider the student body demands.

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That is a very dangerous game. When

you are a student, an academic

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should never give you what you want,

keep you satisfied.

I do not think

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that is true at all.

That is why we

call it a debate.

If I went to

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university and they refuse to teach

me, I would be furious.

If you go at

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18 and you say give me what I want,

you will never learn anything. The

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point is you do not know what you

want, the point about academic life

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is it opens your minds up to things

you need to know.

I am sorry but

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that is patronising for the student

body. If you're going to university

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to study, you have to have access to

education and ask whatever you need

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to ask and receiver. Moving forward,

in terms of trigger warning, it is

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very essential. You do not know what

that didn't might have experienced

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that day or what they have been

through or how they even got to

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class that day. -- do not know what

that students might have experience.

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Of Nigel Farage came here to give a

talk, what would you think?

He would

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be no platforms, the student body

with no platform him. That is what

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the majority of the student body

wants.

Debate with him...? No

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platforming Nigel Farage?

I am

relatively sympathetic to the

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liberal case are making safe spaces,

but epic that is going too file. If

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the leader of a political party that

won the European elections in this

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country is shut out of institutions

because the majority of students do

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not want him, that is a problem.

Minorities have a right to hear

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views that other people might find

offensive. The whole idea of no

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platform seems to have eaten itself

it will justify shutting people out

0:21:130:21:16

because of majority rule on campus.

Thank you all very much, thank you

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for your contributions. We have two

motivates and I want you to really

0:21:210:21:25

push the envelope, all right, and

say whatever you want. Thank you for

0:21:250:21:29

your contributions.

0:21:290:21:30

If you have something

to say about that debate,

0:21:300:21:33

log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions,

and follow the link to where you can

0:21:330:21:36

join in the discussion online.

0:21:360:21:37

Or contribute on Twitter.

0:21:370:21:38

We're also debating live this

morning at the University

0:21:380:21:40

of East London, "Should meat be

taxed to save the planet?"

0:21:400:21:43

And "Has the West

misunderstood Buddhism?"

0:21:430:21:45

So, get tweeting or emailing

on those topics now,

0:21:450:21:47

or send us any other ideas

or thoughts you may

0:21:470:21:49

have about the show.

0:21:490:21:51

January, and the new year brings

new diets promising ways of losing

0:21:540:21:57

the extra pounds piled on over

Christmas.

0:21:570:22:01

This year there's Veganuary,

with 150,000 people signing up

0:22:010:22:05

to renounce all animal products

for at least the first

0:22:050:22:11

month of the year.

0:22:110:22:12

No meat, no fish, no milk,

no cheese, no eggs.

0:22:120:22:14

Just vegetables, fruit,

cereals, nuts and pulses -

0:22:140:22:16

every day for a month.

0:22:160:22:18

It's claimed veganism is not only

healthier for us but also better

0:22:180:22:23

for the planet because farming

livestock is one of the biggest

0:22:230:22:25

causes of global warming.

0:22:250:22:28

Some experts say livestock

and its by-products account for 51%

0:22:280:22:30

of greenhouse gas emissions.

0:22:300:22:33

But if the smell of your

Sunday roast is just

0:22:330:22:35

too tempting to resist,

what about eating less meat?

0:22:350:22:38

And what if meat - like alcohol,

sugar and cigarettes -

0:22:380:22:41

was taxed to deter us

from eating so much?

0:22:410:22:43

And what if the taxes raised

could be used to offset any damage

0:22:430:22:46

farming livestock may cause?

0:22:460:22:49

Should meat be taxed

to save the planet?

0:22:490:22:58

Mark O'Connor why should it be

taxed, and how much? -- Marco, why

0:22:580:23:07

should it be taxed?

There are

reasons about why you might want to

0:23:070:23:11

regulate meat. You might not be

happy about how meat is produced,

0:23:110:23:15

some people have brought to pay tax

because of antibiotic use, or you

0:23:150:23:18

might not be happy with mass

production. That could be easily

0:23:180:23:24

done...

Animal welfare?

Then there

are health and environmental

0:23:240:23:28

motivations for why you would want

to introduce regulation. From a

0:23:280:23:31

health perspective, red meat and

processed meats have been declared

0:23:310:23:37

carcinogens by the cancer agency of

the World Health Organisation, there

0:23:370:23:40

is a clear case of why you would

want to regulate meat in some form

0:23:400:23:45

or other. If you think about other

carcinogens like tobacco and is best

0:23:450:23:48

us, they are heavily regulated.

Finally there is an environmental

0:23:480:23:52

dimensional. -- like tobacco and

asbestos. The food we eat creates

0:23:520:24:00

around a quarter of all greenhouse

gas emissions and it is expected to

0:24:000:24:04

go up. In one form or another we

have to basically tackle what we

0:24:040:24:12

eat.

Can I stop you there, it has

just occurred to me, less meat means

0:24:120:24:17

more people... They would want more

soya and rely on palm oil, which is

0:24:170:24:25

destroying ecosystems, destroying

beautiful creatures and

0:24:250:24:28

environments. That is the trade-off,

isn't it?

Not really. The amount of

0:24:280:24:35

soy beans produced, most of it is

fed to animals, right? If we didn't

0:24:350:24:39

have that amount of meat production

we would be able to free some land

0:24:390:24:45

up that is now used for producing

soya. If you shift diets, you need

0:24:450:24:50

to produce May be more lagoons, but

not necessarily more palm oil, for

0:24:500:24:53

example. -- you need to produce may

be more legumes. Palm oil has

0:24:530:25:02

environment or consequences that one

does not follow from the other. If

0:25:020:25:05

you compare how intensive meat is on

the environment, says greenhouse

0:25:050:25:11

gases meat is many times more than

legumes.

Richard is an organic

0:25:110:25:17

farmer. So you pay £15 for your

joint of beef, how much should it

0:25:170:25:24

be?

That depends where you come

from, from a health perspective run

0:25:240:25:28

by mental perspective?

Straight

answer.

About 20 or 30% more.

What

0:25:280:25:35

do you make about taxing meat?

Climate change is a huge problem,

0:25:350:25:41

and we need to reshape our diets to

make the balance between what is a

0:25:410:25:45

healthy diet and a sustainable way

of farming. My major concern about a

0:25:450:25:50

meat tax, I think would make things

worse -- my major concern. Both in

0:25:500:25:55

terms of greenhouse gases and in

other aspects. I challenge the fact

0:25:550:26:01

2727% of greenhouse gases are coming

from agriculture, -- I challenge the

0:26:010:26:07

fact that when you say 27% of

greenhouse gases are coming from

0:26:070:26:11

agriculture, those are coming from

statistics which looked a rainforest

0:26:110:26:15

destruction and South America. At

that time, we were planting forests

0:26:150:26:19

in the UK. UK Government figures

show 10% of UK emissions come from

0:26:190:26:24

agriculture and about 5% of that

from cattle. 5% is a more accurate

0:26:240:26:29

figure for what is happening with

cattle. If we tax red meat, which is

0:26:290:26:36

higher than chicken, we will see the

complete loss of all traditional

0:26:360:26:43

livestock for farmers in this

country. They are struggling to make

0:26:430:26:46

a living as it is and we would see

increased production of intensive

0:26:460:26:50

meets because that is the only way

that farmers can survive.

0:26:500:26:54

Interesting point, people looking

for cheap meat so it will be even

0:26:540:26:57

worse for the animals?

One thing that is important,

0:26:570:27:03

tackling it from a client

perspective, it does not make so

0:27:030:27:06

much sense to only argue for a meat

tax. What our studies suggest is

0:27:060:27:11

that some form or another, you have

to bring agriculture into the

0:27:110:27:15

picture. At the moment it is only

energy production.

In the time we

0:27:150:27:23

have, if it is going to tax meat,

people will be looking to get meat

0:27:230:27:28

as cheap as possible, and so the

production will be as cheap as

0:27:280:27:33

possible and animals will be in

terrible conditions, more so than

0:27:330:27:37

now.

We must not mix issues.

Intensive farming is what you want

0:27:370:27:46

to get away from, presumably, but

you will need more of it to get

0:27:460:27:49

cheaper meat?

If you want to get

away from intensive farming, you

0:27:490:27:53

must regulated. Easy, right? Talking

about climate change, we must

0:27:530:27:57

regulate anything that causes

emissions. If you tax anything you

0:27:570:28:02

get tax revenues, you can use them

for something. If that would be

0:28:020:28:07

something that would be negative for

farmers, of course there are

0:28:070:28:11

revenues that could be used to

support farmers to switch to more

0:28:110:28:15

environmentally benign production

techniques.

0:28:150:28:19

A massive issue, massive challenge

and a mass of cultural change.

0:28:190:28:25

Marianne Landzettel, a journalist

and Soil Association blogger, is

0:28:250:28:29

this a go?

To me, and meat tax would

be detrimental. Not all meat is

0:28:290:28:36

created equal, especially in the UK

we have a lot of marginal land which

0:28:360:28:39

can only be used as grazing land. We

are talking about land in the

0:28:390:28:45

uplands, we are also talking about a

lot of marshlands in coastal areas.

0:28:450:28:49

Animals are actually doing a lot of

good there, helping to protect the

0:28:490:28:54

environment. They are doing that

because Grassland only really

0:28:540:29:00

flourishes if you have animals

grazing them, otherwise it reverts

0:29:000:29:03

back to shrub land.

Churning up the

land and providing a place for

0:29:030:29:08

seeding?

For seeding, soil building

going on... Wild flowers... All of

0:29:080:29:18

that. It is beneficial for migratory

birds, they would not have anywhere

0:29:180:29:22

to go. In the uplands if you do the

agriculture right, and I know there

0:29:220:29:29

is overgrazing, that of the grazing

is done sustainable eat you are

0:29:290:29:32

building soil. We probably all

remember the terrible flooding we

0:29:320:29:37

have seen in some January Yes and

February Yes. If there was good land

0:29:370:29:42

management with animals, we could

reduce flooding downstream because

0:29:420:29:48

the soil would have the ability to

hold more water. You cannot do that

0:29:480:29:55

without animals, which is why to me

animals are really an integral part

0:29:550:29:59

of a sustainable, climate resilient

and in food terms healthy

0:29:590:30:05

agricultural.

Lisa from Peta, this

could be worse for animals to tax

0:30:050:30:13

meat?

I am happy we brought animals

into the conversation, we can't have

0:30:130:30:18

an honest debate about the

coldest... Cost of animal

0:30:180:30:25

agriculture without considering what

animals pay the highest price for I

0:30:250:30:29

wish your addiction to meat. The

vast majority of animals in this

0:30:290:30:33

country are factory farmed. They are

kept in windowless, filthy sheds.

0:30:330:30:38

They are denied everything that

gives their life meaning, everything

0:30:380:30:42

that would have made their life

natural.

And many people feel

0:30:420:30:48

strongly about this. But the danger

is you would have more factory

0:30:480:30:51

farming because people would be

looking for cheaper meat if meat

0:30:510:30:53

were taxed.

0:30:530:30:59

I do not think so. I think a tax on

meat would send an important message

0:30:590:31:04

to consumers that eating meat is not

a necessity. It would decrease the

0:31:040:31:09

amount of demand for animals.

Currently in the UK alone, we are

0:31:090:31:15

eating 1 billion animals a year.

What about the future of the farming

0:31:150:31:18

industry?

At the moment, we are

breeding animals by the billions so

0:31:180:31:23

we can lock them up in factory

farms, so we can harvest them, for

0:31:230:31:29

Flash, to turn them into burgers and

sausages. The first thing that would

0:31:290:31:33

happen if we had a tax on meat, we

would simply breed less animals.

0:31:330:31:40

Less animals would suffer on farms

and in slaughterhouses. That is a

0:31:400:31:45

good thing. The second point I will

make is that the days of small

0:31:450:31:48

family farms are gone, they have

been replaced by a large-scale,

0:31:480:31:54

industrial factory farms. Farmers

have been replaced by machines.

0:31:540:31:59

Also, industries evolve. People can

retrain. Those who are forming

0:31:590:32:04

animals can farm plant -based

agriculture. Industries evolve. That

0:32:040:32:08

is the way of social and moral

progress.

Things change, things move

0:32:080:32:12

on. Points from the audience. Let's

go to the gentleman in the orange

0:32:120:32:18

top. Good morning.

I find that a tax

on meat, or food in general, I am

0:32:180:32:29

opposed to it. It will affect the

poorest people first. I am opposed

0:32:290:32:33

to that. But I do feel that factory

farming is terrible, particularly

0:32:330:32:39

the way that animals are treated.

Perhaps we could sort of separate

0:32:390:32:46

this towards taxing factory meat,

and organic and free range remain

0:32:460:32:54

untaxed, to incentivise farmers to

move towards that production.

This

0:32:540:32:58

is music to Richard's years.

There

are several groups in this country

0:32:580:33:07

who are trying hard to produce

animals with wealthy and mine, which

0:33:070:33:10

is less harmful to the environment.

One group of organic farmers, and

0:33:100:33:16

another group who are trying to rear

animals just on pasture. There is a

0:33:160:33:20

massive difference between red meat

produced in the UK and red meat

0:33:200:33:24

produced in America. The UK is one

of the best countries in the world

0:33:240:33:29

for producing grass. 70% of our

farmland is in grass for assigned

0:33:290:33:34

environmental reasons. It would do

terrible harm to plough that up and

0:33:340:33:38

grow crops. People do not realise

that sustainable, continue its crop

0:33:380:33:45

production is not sustainable. We

are degrading the soil. The only way

0:33:450:33:50

to restore the health and fertility

of those soils is to put it back to

0:33:500:33:53

grass. Grass is an amazing crop. It

has three times as much material

0:33:530:33:58

underground in the rates than above

ground. It will restore Corbyn into

0:33:580:34:02

the ground and make the sole

resilient against climate change. If

0:34:020:34:07

we plough that up, we put massive

amounts of greenhouse gases into the

0:34:070:34:12

atmosphere. That is why what Marco

is suggesting will make things worse

0:34:120:34:16

rather than better.

I want to go

around the audience.

Come back

0:34:160:34:20

quickly on that. Very quickly, it is

a very passionate debate, but I

0:34:200:34:28

think it would make sense to view it

more dispassionately. We do not want

0:34:280:34:33

that. I know. We are on television

after all. We are not arguing that

0:34:330:34:38

people should go vegan, or that all

animals will disappear. Of course

0:34:380:34:45

not. We estimate that if you put a

tax of 20%, 30%, consumption would

0:34:450:34:52

go down by 10%, that would be half a

portion of meat each week. Not much.

0:34:520:34:58

That revenue you can use to support

lower income households, if you

0:34:580:35:04

basically refund the revenues are

you put them in health promotion

0:35:040:35:08

programmes.

You have thought it

through. More points, please. At the

0:35:080:35:12

Bachini mustard top.

I think the

thing that needs to happen is people

0:35:120:35:18

need to be sure on that eating less

meat is a realistic option. At the

0:35:180:35:25

moment, people underestimate their

ability to do that, they think it is

0:35:250:35:28

impossible. If people in advertising

and food chains, if they showed that

0:35:280:35:36

eating less meat is possible, then

people would ultimately buy less

0:35:360:35:40

meat, and it would not be the

default thing to buy meat for every

0:35:400:35:44

day of the week.

Thank you, moving

along.

Good morning. I think people

0:35:440:35:50

are forgetting how vegetables and

agriculture are produced. Recently

0:35:500:35:54

people have been using fertiliser

containing ammonia, so when there is

0:35:540:35:59

massive rainfall, bodies of water,

that ammonia is toxic to animals,

0:35:590:36:05

marine life, it gets destroyed. What

is to be said about the marine life

0:36:050:36:08

that gets destroyed if people opt

for going vegan.

More vegetables

0:36:080:36:14

will be needed. Do you want to come

in, Claire? Most people think, do

0:36:140:36:19

they not, that we should be eating

less meat?

I do not see why.

0:36:190:36:24

Genuinely. My priorities are world

hunger, people being pure, not being

0:36:240:36:31

able to afford good cuts of meat, I

worry about those kind of things. I

0:36:310:36:37

think that as a humanist, with a

small age, rather than adopting your

0:36:370:36:42

organisation, what I am interested

in is how we can improve humankind's

0:36:420:36:46

functioning. -- with a small H. I

think animals are things that humans

0:36:460:36:55

use. It does not mean we should

abuse them. I think that it taxes

0:36:550:37:02

even more political.

It moralise is

the question.

We do it with

0:37:020:37:06

cigarettes. I do not necessarily

approve of it in that relationship

0:37:060:37:10

but earlier it was said that there

are arguments, they might be

0:37:100:37:14

dangerous for you. In relation to

meat, I think we want people to be

0:37:140:37:19

afford to be able to buy meat

regularly, and not be forced out of

0:37:190:37:26

buying it, and ultimately, some of

the arguments, the popularity of

0:37:260:37:29

being vegan, it is almost a new

religion, in the way that people are

0:37:290:37:34

trying to find a purpose in life and

have not quite got one and this has

0:37:340:37:39

become the latest fad.

Who wants to

respond to that? We like debate. Go

0:37:390:37:49

on.

Veganism is a kind of religion.

I 100% agree it is a religion.

I

0:37:490:37:56

wanted somebody to be against it.

Carry on. We have a perception that

0:37:560:38:03

veganism is extremely beneficial for

our health, and it is, but most

0:38:030:38:07

people who are vegan or mineral

deficient. They are. Vitamins such

0:38:070:38:12

as B12, there are no plans on earth

that has a sustainable amount of

0:38:120:38:17

that vitamin that is needed for

human function. We should eat less

0:38:170:38:21

meat because it is tragic how

animals are abused and how they are

0:38:210:38:25

giving to me on my plate. If I see a

video of a chicken and how it is far

0:38:250:38:30

and I will not want to eat meat

again.

I agree with that.

0:38:300:38:35

Interesting messages on that. I am

glad I stayed with you.

Over there.

0:38:350:38:40

I do not think that is true. I think

vegan bag, and the NHS supports this

0:38:400:38:47

and the United Nations, AE vegan and

vegetarian diet is healthy and

0:38:470:38:52

better for the planet. We need to it

and think it it as a positive

0:38:520:38:57

change, moving to a plant -based

diet. Climate change will have a

0:38:570:39:03

massive impact on humans. Over the

next 30 years we will see hundreds

0:39:030:39:06

of millions of people migrating away

from parts of the earth that have

0:39:060:39:10

been burnt by climate change. We

will have massive challenges in our

0:39:100:39:13

hands. Andrew. I agree with that

point. I want to contradict what

0:39:130:39:24

Claire said, were moral obligations

in this question said. I am not on

0:39:240:39:28

either side of this debate in

particular but I do not think that

0:39:280:39:31

human beings are simply to be

concerned with the welfare of other

0:39:310:39:34

human beings. There should also be a

concern for nonhuman animals,

0:39:340:39:39

because they can suffer. We have an

obligation to treat them not as

0:39:390:39:44

reasoning beings like herself, but

to treat them as other beings

0:39:440:39:49

capable of suffering. -- beings like

ours.

There is empathy with the

0:39:490:39:58

great apes, and self-awareness.

It

is a spectrum. That is a really

0:39:580:40:02

important part of the moral context.

Cancer is important, climate change

0:40:020:40:09

is important, but so are obligations

to other animals on this planet.

I

0:40:090:40:13

think that should be taken

seriously. Thank you all very much

0:40:130:40:17

indeed. Thank you for your thoughts.

0:40:170:40:20

You can join in all this

morning's debates by logging

0:40:200:40:22

on to bbc.co.uk/the big questions

and following the link

0:40:220:40:24

to the online discussion.

0:40:240:40:25

Or you can tweet using

the hashtag bbctbq.

0:40:250:40:27

Tell us what you think

about our last big question, too.

0:40:270:40:30

Has the West misunderstood Buddhism?

0:40:300:40:33

And if you'd like to apply

to be in the audience

0:40:330:40:36

at a future show, you can email

[email protected]

0:40:360:40:37

We're in Bradford next Sunday,

Cambridge on January 21st

0:40:370:40:40

and Newcastle upon Tyne

the week after that.

0:40:400:40:46

We are on the road.

0:40:460:40:50

This Thursday marked

the 70th anniversary

0:40:500:40:54

of independence from Britain

for Myanmar, formerly Burma.

0:40:540:40:58

And it was in colonial times

that the British brought

0:40:580:41:02

the Rohingya people,

Muslims from former Bengal,

0:41:020:41:06

to Rakhine province in Burma

to develop the land for farming.

0:41:060:41:09

During the war with Japan,

the Rohingya people were promised

0:41:090:41:12

independence by the British,

but this promise was revoked

0:41:120:41:14

when the Second World War ended.

0:41:140:41:19

So, Britain has had a hand

in the fate of the Rohingya people,

0:41:190:41:24

now being forcibly evicted

from Rakhine province

0:41:240:41:25

by Buddhist soldiers,

in what the UN Commissioner

0:41:250:41:27

for Human Rights has said may be

declared a genocide.

0:41:270:41:31

No country is coming to intervene,

no-one is suggesting

0:41:310:41:36

direct military action,

nothing will be done.

0:41:360:41:42

Yet Myanmar is predominantly

a Buddhist country, a philosophy

0:41:420:41:45

whose five moral precepts include

not harming any living

0:41:450:41:47

things and not taking

something which is not yours.

0:41:470:41:49

How can a Buddhist country treat

people who have lived

0:41:490:41:51

there for generations so cruelly?

0:41:510:41:53

Has the West misunderstood Buddhism?

0:41:530:42:01

Livestock about that now. Dr Zarni,

an activist and scholar. There is a

0:42:010:42:08

Western cliche, the Richard gear

thing, about Buddhism, in sense and

0:42:080:42:14

inner peace and all that.

Is that

misplaced? Yes, absolutely. The fact

0:42:140:42:20

we're having this debate is as

affirmative to your question. Has

0:42:200:42:25

the West misunderstood Buddhism?

Also, Islamabad religions. There are

0:42:250:42:33

two points I want to make. One is,

when a terrorist bomb blows up in

0:42:330:42:40

Barcelona or wherever, Muslims are

made to feel that they need to

0:42:400:42:46

apologise, but when Buddhist

countries such as Burma Cambodia

0:42:460:42:49

under the Khmer Rouge, when they

commit war crimes or crimes against

0:42:490:42:58

humanity, no western Buddhist

community, including Richard Gere

0:42:580:43:00

and the followers of the Dalai

llama, are made to feel that they

0:43:000:43:04

need to apologise. It indicates this

positive western Orientalism, which

0:43:040:43:16

romanticises the Buddhist people and

Buddhism. That is one problem.

We

0:43:160:43:21

put them on a pedestal, in a way?

Exactly. The other one is the

0:43:210:43:26

religion. These social and political

misuses of religion. That is

0:43:260:43:32

universal. All religious systems

have been abuse throughout history

0:43:320:43:38

over thousands of years by political

and military classes for their

0:43:380:43:42

strategic interests. Buddhism is no

exception. I am from a devout

0:43:420:43:48

Buddhist family. I consider myself a

fairly spiritual person but I do not

0:43:480:43:54

go to the monastery or pray every

day. But the point is, Buddhists are

0:43:540:44:01

no special people, we are just like

anyone, every advises capable of

0:44:010:44:07

doing heinous things to other human

beings when the situation is

0:44:070:44:10

mobilised.

Some people will find it

surprising, given the ethos and the

0:44:100:44:15

ethics of the religion, they will

find that surprising. I will talk

0:44:150:44:20

about adding sand Su Chi who is a

fascinating figure. Great to have

0:44:200:44:25

you back on the programme. A

professor of religion and ethics at

0:44:250:44:33

Bath spa University. Without making

any judgment on this, take it into

0:44:330:44:37

the mindset of the Buddhist soldier

who has been involved in what is a

0:44:370:44:45

genocide, the politician who may see

themselves as a devout Buddhist. How

0:44:450:44:50

are they driving this -- how are

they justifying this for themselves?

0:44:500:44:58

I think the driving forces politics

and nationalism. Closely associated

0:44:580:45:03

with Buddhism. The West, since

Victorian times, has appreciated

0:45:030:45:09

Buddhism.

The person who was part of

the ethnic cleansing, one of those

0:45:090:45:13

people carrying it out, and the

genocide, who would also see

0:45:130:45:18

themselves as a devout Buddhist, how

are they reconciling bad?

It is not

0:45:180:45:25

possible to reconcile, because as a

soldier, when you are in arms, you

0:45:250:45:28

are bound by rules. There is no

place for your religious conviction.

0:45:280:45:35

But you find justifications?

I don't

think the soldiers have a choice

0:45:350:45:39

that they cannot kill. I think by

definition, when you become a

0:45:390:45:44

soldier, you have to kill. I think

here in Myanmar the case is very

0:45:440:45:49

complex. We have to think about

Myanmar has eight ethnic groups, you

0:45:490:45:56

know, and the Rohingya are supposed

to be the ninth one, which is not

0:45:560:46:00

recognised. There are 8 million

Muslims in Myanmar, that is 10% of

0:46:000:46:10

the population. Rohingya is about

800,000.

Do they feel under cultural

0:46:100:46:15

threat?

I think so. When you think

about it generally, frankly

0:46:150:46:20

speaking, if you talk to average

people in Sri Lanka or Myanmar,

0:46:200:46:25

there is a growing resentment, I do

not know on which basis it comes

0:46:250:46:32

from, but partly because of the

growth of the population and

0:46:320:46:37

expansion of businesses, and

particularly the introduction of

0:46:370:46:45

unusual dresses which are new to

those cultures.

How interesting.

And

0:46:450:46:50

food habits. So I think prejudices

are based on that.

So those factors

0:46:500:46:55

are coming into play, consciously

and, indeed, perhaps subconsciously.

0:46:550:47:00

Back with you, Aung San Suu Kyi, she

won a Nobel Peace Prize and is

0:47:000:47:07

presiding over or endorsing or

acquiescing in this genocide. As one

0:47:070:47:14

of my teenage daughters would say,

what the hell?

Your question was how

0:47:140:47:21

we misunderstood Buddhism. Aung San

Suu Kyi lived in England for about

0:47:210:47:24

24 years before returning to Burma

in 1988. There is a good argument

0:47:240:47:28

that she misunderstood Buddhism

herself. She arrived in Burma with a

0:47:280:47:33

rather sappy and simple-minded

version of Buddhism that we have

0:47:330:47:37

accepted here, that it is to do with

calm, peacefulness, basically you

0:47:370:47:44

sit cross-legged and all is

beautiful. For many others it is the

0:47:440:47:49

ideal religion which has no sin, it

is not coercive, it is to do with

0:47:490:47:55

complicated that beautiful concepts

like karma, nothing to do with state

0:47:550:47:59

power. In Burma where she arrived in

88, where she is now in power,

0:47:590:48:05

Buddhism was powerfully conditioned

by the reaction against colonialism.

0:48:050:48:09

All of the leaders of the fight

against British colonialism in Burma

0:48:090:48:14

in the late 19th and early 20th

centuries were Buddhist. Usually

0:48:140:48:18

Buddhist monks. They saw that what

the British had done in Burma was

0:48:180:48:24

basically remove the keystone of

their society and shatter it. As has

0:48:240:48:31

happened in Sri Lanka in slightly

different circumstances, the

0:48:310:48:35

religion of 95% of the people and

the sense of national identity and

0:48:350:48:41

of patriotically preservation became

fatally fused. I think that is the

0:48:410:48:48

core of the problem. As to Aung San

Suu Kyi herself, who I have written

0:48:480:48:53

about in two books, I think she has

been trapped in a position where she

0:48:530:48:56

has basically become the scapegoat

for the actions of a military

0:48:560:49:01

outside of her control because of

the Constitution.

Is she a prisoner

0:49:010:49:06

of the generals?

Yes.

I disagree. I

shared a panel with Aung San Suu Kyi

0:49:060:49:12

in June 2012 when she returned to

England to the London School of

0:49:120:49:16

Economics. She had already declared

her presidential ambition, and there

0:49:160:49:23

I was, I also very academic, and I

was preassigned to handle this

0:49:230:49:26

question that was emerging as there

was organised violence against the

0:49:260:49:35

Rohingya Muslim people, why did she

dodge a moral responsibility to

0:49:350:49:39

confront this? The obvious thing

people do not want to believe,

0:49:390:49:42

because we have put on the pedestal

with Mandela and Gandhi and Martin

0:49:420:49:46

Luther King Junior, she is an

anti-Muslim racist. She spoke to

0:49:460:49:50

Mishal Husain on Radio 4, you

yourself wrote it, she rest out of

0:49:500:49:56

the studio and said nobody told me a

Muslim would be interviewing me --

0:49:560:50:02

she rushed out of the studio. What

is Mishal Husain dart background how

0:50:020:50:06

to do with it? -- what does Mishal

Husain's background have to do with

0:50:060:50:13

it? She is a racist.

Good morning.

Aung San Suu Kyi?

The Buddha taught

0:50:130:50:21

that the Buddhists destroy Buddhism,

it is not Islam which destroys

0:50:210:50:25

Buddhism, it is the Buddhists, by

not considering it carefully enough.

0:50:250:50:28

What is happening in Myanmar is that

country is destroying Buddhism

0:50:280:50:37

itself. You cannot call yourself a

Buddhist country with that going on,

0:50:370:50:42

it is nonsense.

What about Aung San

Suu Kyi, should she have this Nobel

0:50:420:50:46

Peace Prize rescinded? I see you

going, yet, blinking right!

0:50:460:50:56

Yeah, I think it should certainly be

revoked. I totally agree with that

0:50:560:51:03

gentleman over there with his

statement, there was a lot to be

0:51:030:51:06

looked into in terms of the country

itself and it is about time that the

0:51:060:51:11

right people sat around and address

the issue full front rather than

0:51:110:51:16

playing around.

Would you know

platform her or would you want to

0:51:160:51:19

hear for people to question her,

bring her to account, make the

0:51:190:51:23

points they want to make and say to

her face, you are a disgrace and an

0:51:230:51:28

anti-Muslim racist, and hear her

response?

It is something that we

0:51:280:51:32

would like to put to membership in

terms of a student vote.

0:51:320:51:36

That is the first issue. Hello, sir?

What about this? Mabrur Ahmed,

0:51:360:51:45

director of Restless Beings. This

militant monk went after you, he is

0:51:450:51:54

leading this, he is a great

ideological wellspring of what is

0:51:540:51:58

happening, he would call himself the

Buddhists?

He would. To go back to

0:51:580:52:02

your question at the beginning,

which is has the West misunderstood

0:52:020:52:06

Buddhism? I think we have a problem

with an orientalist view of... It is

0:52:060:52:12

a very selective orientalist view.

To be honest, I don't think there is

0:52:120:52:17

any world religion which is not

peace-loving, but we select Buddhism

0:52:170:52:20

as this idealistic, non-Sin

religion, a religion which we want

0:52:200:52:26

to put up on a pedestal. That is a

problem, from our perspective. There

0:52:260:52:33

is also an issue of mixing together

xenophobia and nationalism to a

0:52:330:52:38

religion. Just as was mentioned

before, whenever there is any

0:52:380:52:46

Islamist terrorist attack, the

Muslim world has too come out and

0:52:460:52:49

publicly denounce these kind of

actions and almost apologise, it

0:52:490:52:53

forces the sculpture of becoming

apologist. We had to be careful not

0:52:530:53:00

to vindicate Buddhism to do the same

sort of thing. Perhaps that is not

0:53:000:53:04

the way we should be dealing with

Islamist terrorism as well. So far

0:53:040:53:12

as this monk is concerned, he is no

different bin Laden, he called

0:53:120:53:15

himself the Buddhist bin Laden. He

believes that. But bin Laden

0:53:150:53:19

believed he was a Muslim, that does

not mean that the vast majority of

0:53:190:53:23

Muslims would subscribe to his

ideology of Islam, I do think that

0:53:230:53:27

the majority of Buddhists subscribe

to the ideology that this monk

0:53:270:53:33

propagates. We are talking about an

ethnic and religious attack on a

0:53:330:53:38

community, the ripping your

community. It is not based on

0:53:380:53:42

principles of religion that the

Rakhine community and the Burmese

0:53:420:53:50

authorities are attacking these

people on, it is on the very premise

0:53:500:53:55

of the Rohingyas religion, because

they are Muslim, that is why they

0:53:550:53:59

are being attacked and ostracised

and marginalised, not necessarily

0:53:590:54:02

because Buddhism is problematic.

Buddhism and this man are basically

0:54:020:54:14

sideshows, the real deal as the

military, which patronises him and

0:54:140:54:17

another monk. Aung San Suu Kyi just

awarded this person the highest

0:54:170:54:27

Buddhist award, to the man who said

that non-believers, non-Buddhists

0:54:270:54:31

are only one half human beings and

therefore killing them by the

0:54:310:54:36

millions is not bad karma.

We have

heard this to history since time

0:54:360:54:41

immemorial, and my humanist friend

is going, there we go again.

0:54:410:54:45

Religion. Allow me to take over, if

I may, you mentioned a very

0:54:450:54:49

important point about the military.

Peter, let's follow the money, which

0:54:490:54:53

is always a useful road. China's

role, what is going on economically,

0:54:530:55:01

which forces are driving this?

One

of the reasons the military can get

0:55:010:55:05

away with this appalling, rapid,

biggest refugee exodus in history is

0:55:050:55:12

that they have the two biggest

countries in the world, which border

0:55:120:55:16

Burma, they are both looking on

approvingly. China is perfectly

0:55:160:55:20

happy to see them acting in this way

because it helps to secure Rakhine

0:55:200:55:24

states the Chinese investment.

Meanwhile, the Hindu nationalists in

0:55:240:55:28

India who have been in power for the

past years are perfectly at home

0:55:280:55:35

with an Islamophobia policy, they

are equally Islamophobia themselves.

0:55:350:55:40

That part of the world, the

birthplace of the great religions,

0:55:400:55:45

the great home of spiritual values,

has turned extremely toxic in the

0:55:450:55:49

past five or ten years.

I said I

would come back to you, Dr Mahinda

0:55:490:55:54

Deegalle.

Still I think the colonial

past is very important. I think

0:55:540:56:00

these groups came, starting from

1826, the citizenship law of 1982

0:56:000:56:07

prohibited giving citizenship to

these people. One of the solutions

0:56:070:56:11

that not the Buddhists but the state

has to do is offer citizenship to

0:56:110:56:15

these people, if that is offered to

these people then I think the

0:56:150:56:19

problem will go. I think denying

them citizenship is an issue and I

0:56:190:56:23

think the colonial masters have to

be responsible.

0:56:230:56:26

With all due respect to the

reverend, I disagree. I think the

0:56:260:56:36

historical presence of Rohingyas

predated the British colonisation

0:56:360:56:38

which began in 1824. Baby Michael

can chime in. We have a top

0:56:380:56:46

historian who can speak on the

Rohingyas.

Go for it, Michael.

The

0:56:460:56:52

Rohingyas have been at the hundreds

of years, and lots of the Buddhists

0:56:520:56:55

and Rakhine are immigrants

themselves. The problem is the

0:56:550:56:58

Burmese military is trying to put

its imprint of what it sees of

0:56:580:57:03

Democrats Burma and all of the

areas. They will turn everything to

0:57:030:57:07

what Burma looks like in one

particular area. All the world wants

0:57:070:57:13

Burma, it is a strategic position of

natural gas. China once closest to

0:57:130:57:19

the Indian Ocean, the US wanted to

be close to China. Even in the 1990s

0:57:190:57:25

they had to be pushed into

sanctions.

But this is a genocide.

0:57:250:57:30

When it happened in Rwanda, we

looked back in shame.

If these were

0:57:300:57:34

white Europeans then we would

already have been involved.

The

0:57:340:57:39

author of Bed For The Night said

never again has it been turned into

0:57:390:57:45

the poor taste Joe, he said never

again was meant to mean never in

0:57:450:57:55

Europe Germany will kill the Jewish

community. Since 1948...

It happens

0:57:550:58:03

again and again. 20 seconds and we

are out of time.

You had to be

0:58:030:58:07

couple not to call for

interventionism, that has been

0:58:070:58:10

problematic everywhere in the world

-- do have to be careful not to call

0:58:100:58:14

for interventionism. But we cannot

see genocide before our eyes and not

0:58:140:58:19

do anything. The real question is

not has the West misunderstood

0:58:190:58:23

Buddhism, but has the West

misunderstood the roller can play in

0:58:230:58:26

places like.

APPLAUSE

0:58:260:58:31

.

-- but has the West misunderstood

the role it can play in places like

0:58:310:58:36

Burma?

0:58:360:58:37

As always, the debates will continue

online and on Twitter.

0:58:370:58:39

Next week we're in Bradford,

so do join us then.

0:58:390:58:42

But for now, it's goodbye

and have a great Sunday.

0:58:420:58:44

Thank you for watching.

0:58:440:58:49

Nicky Campbell is at the University of East London asking is free speech under threat at universities, should meat be taxed to save the planet and has the West misunderstood Buddhism?


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