Episode 20 The Big Questions


Episode 20

Nicky Campbell presents the topical debates live from Hutchesons' Grammar School in Glasgow.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to Episode 20. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Good morning, welcome to the last edition of The Big Questions in

:00:23.:00:27.

this series. I'm Nicky Campbell. Next week, Ken Clarke's sentencing

:00:27.:00:30.

paper will finally be published. It's unlikely to be warmly received

:00:30.:00:32.

by all sides of this coalition government.

:00:32.:00:37.

Our first Big Question: Are we too soft on criminals?

:00:37.:00:40.

This father says his son could still be alive if his killer had

:00:40.:00:45.

been imprisoned for previous crimes. And, a UN report shows a tripling

:00:45.:00:48.

of abject poverty in Gaza since Israel imposed its blockade five

:00:48.:00:54.

years ago this week, Our next Big Question: Is it time to free

:00:54.:00:57.

Palestine? This Palestinian says conditions in

:00:57.:01:01.

Gaza are now unbearable, and will only be alleviated under a freed

:01:01.:01:04.

state. We're live from Hutchesons Grammar

:01:04.:01:08.

School in Glasgow, with a lively Scottish audience.

:01:08.:01:12.

And sitting on high we have: The Mail on Sunday columnist, Peter

:01:12.:01:14.

Hitchens. Secretary to the Church and Society

:01:14.:01:17.

Committee of the Church of Scotland, the Reverend Ewan Aitken.

:01:17.:01:20.

Columnist and Independent Member of the Scottish Parliament for the

:01:20.:01:30.
:01:30.:01:31.

Lothians, Margo MacDonald. New guidelines on sentences for

:01:31.:01:34.

assault announced this week were denounced by Tory backbenchers as

:01:34.:01:37.

the work of "the liberal-minded judicial elite", who are

:01:37.:01:43.

"completely out of touch with public opinion". What will they

:01:43.:01:46.

make of Ken Clarke's plans to save money with more community service

:01:46.:01:49.

orders, and fewer short term prison sentences? Are we too soft on

:01:49.:01:59.
:01:59.:01:59.

criminals? It is a debate happening all over the UK. Peter Hitchens, if

:02:00.:02:03.

you were in charge, what should prisons before?

:02:03.:02:07.

They should be to shock the people who are sent to them and frighten

:02:07.:02:12.

the people thinking of committing crimes into not committing them.

:02:12.:02:16.

People should encounter them much earlier in their criminal careers.

:02:17.:02:22.

Now you can commit as many as 15 crimes and still not be sent to

:02:22.:02:28.

prison. It is still harder to get into prison than University! People

:02:28.:02:32.

have to try hard for criminals to be sent there. They are often

:02:32.:02:37.

turned out very quickly, rehabilitation is a myth. The only

:02:37.:02:41.

serious purpose of prison was punishment and that has been

:02:41.:02:46.

abandoned. As a result, prison as an expense is not designed to deter

:02:46.:02:53.

those sent there, or the people who think it might be worthwhile

:02:53.:02:58.

committing crime, and 30 years ago would have thought they wouldn't do

:02:58.:03:03.

that, now reckon the rest is worthwhile. Rehabilitation is a

:03:03.:03:09.

myth? It is a rather totalitarian idea, to change somebody's

:03:09.:03:16.

character. It is a Christian idea. It is not a change of character, we

:03:16.:03:21.

are talking about people who have, for many reasons, been badly

:03:21.:03:25.

brought up, they have seen the police and withdrawn from the

:03:25.:03:31.

streets, misbehaved and nothing happens to them, they get Committee

:03:31.:03:36.

service which has no effect. They commit further crimes And Nothing

:03:36.:03:41.

continues to happen, their fines are not collected. They learn not

:03:41.:03:47.

to take the criminal-justice system seriously. The first time you meet

:03:47.:03:50.

the criminal justice system you should realise it is serious. With

:03:50.:03:58.

hours, you can meet it 20 times and know it is not serious. Peter

:03:58.:04:03.

misses the point. You can have an authoritarian father model of the

:04:03.:04:09.

system which is where you can beat your system -- children into

:04:09.:04:15.

submission. All the paternal model where the task is to make sure you

:04:15.:04:19.

find the full potential of the individual. It is hard when people

:04:19.:04:26.

do awful things. If the way we approach folk, particularly those

:04:26.:04:31.

who do bad things, if we make them feel worse, we will never change

:04:32.:04:37.

them. The fundamental task of the justice system must be to bring

:04:37.:04:44.

about change. That his own -- that is the only way. You can certainly

:04:44.:04:48.

changed people but not by changing their character. You can teach them

:04:48.:04:53.

if they do certain things which they know to be wrong, they will be

:04:53.:05:02.

punished. That is instilling fear in them. If there is anyone in this

:05:02.:05:08.

room who has never been motivated not to do something I fear, or who

:05:08.:05:18.
:05:18.:05:20.

claims they haven't, they are lying. You were in prison for seven months,

:05:20.:05:25.

sentenced to 15. Possession of speed. Your father was a prison

:05:25.:05:31.

officer. You feel you were made an example of. If it had been harsher,

:05:31.:05:36.

is there an argument you and others would have said, that is scary, I

:05:36.:05:46.
:05:46.:05:46.

do not want to go back? Scary for myself. But, that was 13 years ago.

:05:46.:05:56.
:05:56.:06:00.

It is not like we one per -- Willy Wonka prisons. They are afraid of

:06:00.:06:10.
:06:10.:06:12.

hurting people's civil rights. Computers. Food. Take away their

:06:12.:06:17.

liberty and they have lost their family. And they have lost their

:06:17.:06:21.

reputation. And they have probably lost the chance of the Korea they

:06:21.:06:27.

wanted. Just by taking away their liberty, you are punishing them. I

:06:27.:06:35.

am sorry they have given up thumbscrews! Don't be silly. This

:06:35.:06:41.

isn't a matter of torture, but about undergoing an austere

:06:41.:06:48.

punitive experience in a civilised prison system. Be sensible. I am

:06:48.:06:53.

being sensible. I think he is being altogether too broad-brush in his

:06:53.:06:58.

approach. Not everyone responds in the same way to a harsh regime.

:06:58.:07:03.

Some people would, they might be frightened out of their lives.

:07:03.:07:07.

Others would become more violent in response. I don't think there is

:07:07.:07:15.

any evidence of that. When criminals fall out among themselves,

:07:15.:07:21.

they instil fear in each other. People commit crime because they

:07:21.:07:25.

decide to do it. They decide to rob their fellow creatures and to be

:07:25.:07:35.
:07:35.:07:35.

violent. 70% of the 16-25-year-old men in jail have some form of

:07:35.:07:40.

dyslexia or reading issue and have struggled in the education system.

:07:40.:07:44.

The choices they have and the capacity to make those choices

:07:44.:07:48.

Barbara is limited. We have to understand if we are to sort out

:07:48.:07:56.

the justice system, we have to start in those aged below three.

:07:56.:08:03.

That is not an excuse to commit crime. Other figures, 80% of women

:08:03.:08:11.

in prison have mental health problems. 50% have been abused. The

:08:11.:08:16.

cost of reoffending for England and Wales, the reoffending rates are

:08:16.:08:24.

horrific. You have to get in early and dealing with these things.

:08:24.:08:28.

don't send sick women to prison. Will we ever have enough money to

:08:29.:08:38.
:08:39.:08:40.

deal with this? You're wet -- what is the way ahead? Before been Chief

:08:40.:08:44.

Inspector of Prisons, I was in the SAS. I thought like Peter then.

:08:44.:08:50.

Having seen the reality of prison over eight years, I began to

:08:50.:08:54.

realise prison isn't just about deterrence or punishment, its main

:08:54.:08:58.

purpose must be, because it is so expensive, is to prevent future

:08:58.:09:06.

victims of crime. To kick the public's saved. What isn't

:09:06.:09:11.

recognised his sentences are getting much longer, far more life

:09:11.:09:15.

sentences. I don't have any difficulty with that, that includes

:09:15.:09:19.

women. At the other end of the scale, we are extremely soft on

:09:19.:09:29.
:09:29.:09:30.

potential criminals, mixing -- and I would also a Grier the plight of

:09:30.:09:35.

women in Scotland is a disgrace. There are petty offenders in jail

:09:35.:09:39.

because no one else can think what to do with them, a terrible

:09:39.:09:46.

situation. What about those short sentences? Are you talking about

:09:46.:09:50.

community punishment orders? If you are going to have short sentences,

:09:50.:09:58.

you need more prison officers, you need role models. Very well trained.

:09:58.:10:06.

We do not have that. As a country, we cannot afford it. The cheaper

:10:06.:10:11.

option, community punishments, are a bit weak. We can afford it if we

:10:11.:10:17.

want to come and we just need to stop subsidising the nuclear bomb,

:10:17.:10:22.

to stop spending money on those things. It is not just about waste

:10:22.:10:28.

of money but waste of lives. would you make the community

:10:28.:10:32.

punishment orders harsher? I have no difficulty, one of the problems

:10:32.:10:37.

with prison is everything goes on behind closed doors, most people

:10:37.:10:43.

have no idea. Including yourself, Peter. On the contrary, I have

:10:43.:10:50.

visited many prisons in this country and elsewhere. I accept

:10:50.:10:54.

that, but so have I. They are physically warehouses where people

:10:54.:11:01.

are kept until we let them out. make it tougher at the same time?

:11:01.:11:05.

At the moment they are unpleasant in the wrong way. They are largely

:11:05.:11:10.

run by the inmates and not the authorities. The nor do they have

:11:10.:11:16.

any purpose other than incarceration. The prisoner

:11:16.:11:20.

Doherty's Fry and the prisons. What are you saying about community

:11:20.:11:26.

punishment? It is not visible enough. Prison is totally invisible.

:11:26.:11:33.

If you are going to switch to the cheaper option, they need to be

:11:33.:11:38.

tougher and more visible. I have no problem with those doing community

:11:38.:11:43.

punishments to be visible, if necessary, wearing a high-

:11:43.:11:48.

visibility jacket so we all know who they are. The thing that has

:11:48.:11:52.

changed me when I was in the military, was going through

:11:52.:11:58.

humiliation. Humiliation? Shame prevented me after a while from

:11:58.:12:04.

committing some of the offences I otherwise would have done. What you

:12:04.:12:13.

think about that, spotting those? There is no point putting people in

:12:13.:12:18.

prison if we are not addressing the reasons why people are offending in

:12:18.:12:24.

the first place. What about visibility, Committee punishment?

:12:24.:12:28.

Not if it doesn't make a difference to why people are committing

:12:28.:12:33.

offences. If they have mental health issues. If they have lost

:12:33.:12:38.

contact with social support to keep them out of prison. You are put in

:12:38.:12:46.

them in a worse position. But they would be in contact with their

:12:46.:12:53.

families, just with high-visibility jackets. Shame, Clyde said.

:12:53.:12:57.

failed to address why they are committing crimes. People commit

:12:57.:13:01.

crimes because they are selfish and think they can get away with it.

:13:01.:13:07.

There is a huge industry which makes excuses for these people. It

:13:07.:13:11.

is subsidised by the state. They are actually wrong, people commit

:13:11.:13:14.

crime because they decide they can get away with it and they are

:13:14.:13:20.

selfish. They will not be stopped by people making excuses for them.

:13:20.:13:29.

They usually live a long way away from them. I asked this in

:13:29.:13:31.

seriousness, Peter has said he has visited prisons in many countries,

:13:31.:13:37.

does anybody have a good Template, a better way of treating people who

:13:37.:13:43.

offend against society? We used to in this country before the prisons

:13:43.:13:48.

were liberalised. I'm talking about now. Nobody has a good prison

:13:48.:13:57.

I would not go for the American model, for instance. You speak

:13:57.:14:00.

about harsh regimes, people talk about Bangkok, it is very

:14:00.:14:08.

unpleasant. It is squalid. How far would you go? You need to look at

:14:08.:14:12.

what we did until the Liberal Revolution in the 60s. People went

:14:12.:14:16.

to prison, they did not have telephones, there were no drugs,

:14:16.:14:21.

prison officers were in charge, they worked hard. The circumstances

:14:21.:14:27.

of their live... Slopping out? against that, it is humiliating.

:14:27.:14:32.

Prisons should be clean but austere, the food should be basic, there

:14:32.:14:35.

should be a lot of work but no comfort. You should come back not

:14:35.:14:42.

wanting to go back in. Not cruelty, but austerity. And education.

:14:42.:14:46.

of the things we have not spoken about his why so many people are in

:14:46.:14:50.

prison in Scotland, I can only speak for Scotland. One of the

:14:50.:14:54.

reasons the prisons, especially the women's prisons, R full, is because

:14:54.:14:59.

the drug laws do not work. If we fix the drug laws... Everybody has

:14:59.:15:04.

to admit they are not working. About 95% of people are in prison

:15:04.:15:07.

are through drugs. When I have a problem I go back to the beginning,

:15:07.:15:13.

the beginning his heroine. When we saw buzz out we will clear the

:15:13.:15:18.

prisons out. It is people who are awfully bad, need to be chained to

:15:18.:15:22.

a sink and punched in the eye, according to you. We need to start

:15:22.:15:26.

talking about first principles of what prisons are meant to do, they

:15:26.:15:30.

are meant to be a deterrent and there must be sanctions if you are

:15:30.:15:33.

considering a crime, they are mentally punishment would also

:15:33.:15:37.

offer an opportunity for rehabilitation so it is not just a

:15:37.:15:42.

conveyor belt. Drugs is a huge issue, particularly in Scotland,

:15:42.:15:48.

there are no drug-free jails in Scotland. We don't do anywhere near

:15:48.:15:51.

enough to get people, who lie in a captive environment would support

:15:51.:15:58.

services, of drugs in prison -- who are in a captive environment with

:15:58.:16:02.

the support services. One prison officer said to me there was a

:16:02.:16:07.

massive issue for the passive smoking for prison officers of

:16:07.:16:13.

cannabis. How are these drugs getting in? Far more needs to be

:16:13.:16:18.

done. Maybe Clive can tell me about this, is it only two jails in

:16:18.:16:23.

Scotland with drug-free wings? The rest of them don't? We don't screen

:16:23.:16:28.

people going in, we don't have plexiglass, we don't check prison

:16:28.:16:32.

officers - and there are many good ones but there are a couple of bad

:16:32.:16:36.

eggs taking drugs in. Inside and outside prisons we do not enforce

:16:36.:16:41.

the laws against drug possession. In England the majority of cases of

:16:41.:16:45.

cannabis possession which the police bother with are dealt with

:16:45.:16:49.

by a warning which involved no criminal record or proceedings.

:16:49.:16:52.

Those are the ones the police bother with, many of them don't

:16:52.:16:58.

bother. You would criminalise a lot of young people? If cannabis is an

:16:58.:17:03.

illegal drug, if you break the law you criminalise yourself. You don't

:17:03.:17:07.

criminalise a burglar by prosecuting him for burglary, you

:17:07.:17:11.

criminalise a drug possessor... some point you stop knocking your

:17:11.:17:15.

head against a brick wall when it is obvious to you you are alive and

:17:15.:17:20.

knocking the wall down nor making your head feel better. -- you are

:17:20.:17:23.

neither knocking the wall down nor making your head feel better. We

:17:23.:17:28.

have had the same, I think, stupid drugs laws in this country for 30

:17:28.:17:36.

years. It is worse now than it was since the drugs Forum in 1986, I

:17:36.:17:41.

think it was. We need to look at which drugs will be criminalised,

:17:41.:17:44.

because I would criminalise the ones which are being made very

:17:44.:17:49.

quickly, we don't know what is in them and there is no quality

:17:49.:17:53.

control, but I would decriminalise cannabis, I would have heroin

:17:53.:17:59.

supplied through the medical... Yes! Cannabis was decriminalised

:17:59.:18:05.

in 1971, there is no serious attempt to prosecute possession.

:18:05.:18:10.

need to get back to prisons. I think it is important we talk about

:18:10.:18:15.

victims. John, your son Damian, what happened to him? Listening to

:18:15.:18:19.

what has been said today reminds me of many, many conversations we have

:18:19.:18:25.

had with various companies of people, various parties, the same

:18:25.:18:31.

as going into get a full vote on it. Everyone talks about what the

:18:31.:18:37.

person who has committed the crime should be getting. Their civil

:18:37.:18:43.

rights and civil liberties. It is an absolute damned disgrace when

:18:43.:18:47.

the 8th 9th blow went into my son when he was lying in the ground,

:18:47.:18:51.

his civil rights and civil liberties stop than -- when the 8th

:18:51.:19:01.

knife blow. Yet we continually pander to the convicted persons in

:19:01.:19:07.

jail. He had been in trouble before, it is important we say that.

:19:07.:19:13.

person who did it? He was important -- in trouble before. What had he

:19:13.:19:18.

done before? Two cases of disfigurement against him and two

:19:18.:19:23.

possessions of knives. What sentence did he get? They had not

:19:23.:19:30.

gone to court, that was over a year. In December 2006 he stabbed a man

:19:30.:19:32.

in the neck and disfigured him, in Margie disfigured another man with

:19:32.:19:41.

a bottle, 2007. In July 2007, he murdered my son. He was on other

:19:41.:19:45.

charges still to come to court about time. I am listening here to

:19:45.:19:50.

professional people talking about what prisoner should be getting.

:19:50.:19:55.

They should be getting a harder time. They done what they don't...

:19:55.:20:04.

APPLAUSE. I didn't encourage him to do it. We come from an area where

:20:04.:20:09.

we thought we lived la safe, clean, quiet area without worrying about

:20:09.:20:16.

these problems -- we thought we lived in a safe, clean, quiet area.

:20:16.:20:22.

All of the MSPs seemed content that where they live, in the nice areas,

:20:22.:20:27.

they are not facing the sharp end we are. My mam had a boyfriend who

:20:27.:20:32.

tried to kill a woman before, then he tried to kill my mam, then he

:20:32.:20:35.

finally murdered her and the police said she was an alcoholic, may be

:20:35.:20:40.

problems happened, they did not even charge him, then he killed

:20:40.:20:44.

another man. I understand a point of the victim. But I feel the

:20:44.:20:47.

Prison Service needs a complete reform, it is not just about the

:20:47.:20:52.

hardened criminals who kill people. The problem we have in the prisons

:20:52.:20:57.

today, I know it is going back to an old subject, is the drugs. The

:20:57.:21:00.

prisons are so full of dealing with drug addicts they are not dealing

:21:00.:21:03.

with the hardened criminals. this man should not have been at

:21:03.:21:10.

liberty? No. Irrespective, it happened, it is too late to do

:21:10.:21:13.

anything about it now. People might look at it in the future, but the

:21:13.:21:17.

main thing we should be looking at as a general public, including

:21:17.:21:21.

professionals, is we should be trying to make sure that the

:21:21.:21:27.

sentences are longer. If someone gets five years they do five years,

:21:27.:21:34.

no early release. APPLAUSE. They should do five years if they

:21:34.:21:40.

get five years? It is in all of our interest to protect the next victim.

:21:40.:21:44.

It is a horrendous situation to be in. Sorry for cutting across, there

:21:44.:21:49.

must be opportunity for the person who has broken the law to get

:21:49.:21:52.

rehabilitation, that is in short supply from what you can hear from

:21:52.:21:58.

the stage. Natalie? It is extremely important, but most people going

:21:58.:22:02.

into prison are there for non- violent, non-sexual fish --

:22:02.:22:06.

offences. We spoke to victims of non-violent offences about this,

:22:06.:22:11.

they wanted something to address the issues, I have a stronger

:22:11.:22:17.

community penalties or... By a strong enough community penalty for

:22:17.:22:21.

somebody who has shown an inkling of violence is a risk. We are

:22:21.:22:28.

talking about non-violent offenders. It is understandable for people who

:22:28.:22:36.

are the danger to the public to stay in prison. It must be a public

:22:36.:22:39.

sanction on public retribution, there must be a place for

:22:39.:22:44.

individual rehabilitation. I am no fan of the United States... We know

:22:44.:22:48.

that. But we need to take a leaf from them about community

:22:48.:22:53.

sentencing. They do a great job. I was teaching in California or

:22:53.:22:58.

Missouri, you have these were gangs cleaning up streets and parks and

:22:58.:23:06.

so forth, they have a distinctive uniform -- work gangs. It is the

:23:06.:23:09.

humiliation. It as an antidote to prevent people from committing more

:23:09.:23:15.

crimes. If you had been wearing that distinctive uniform? You just

:23:15.:23:19.

get a blue and white shirt and blue trousers, everybody wears that.

:23:19.:23:25.

if it had been public, conspicuous and humiliating? If somebody is

:23:25.:23:27.

therefore addiction or mental health issues and you have them

:23:27.:23:31.

wearing a uniform of embarrassment, you could look at pushing them the

:23:31.:23:34.

other way. Lots of people can't handle prison and take their own

:23:34.:23:39.

lives. Why are we obsessed only about individual rights? We should

:23:39.:23:44.

be concerned about public rights. This gentleman has lost his son.

:23:44.:23:47.

That could have been better dealt with. If we take petty criminals

:23:47.:23:52.

and drug addicts... That are a number of drug agencies and

:23:52.:23:55.

rehabilitation centres in the country prepared to help people

:23:55.:23:59.

with drug issues, it takes them away from the court. These people

:23:59.:24:03.

in for the more serious crimes, like the guy who killed a

:24:03.:24:08.

gentleman's son, he could have been dealt with and not been out to take

:24:08.:24:13.

these things away from the public. I think some of the important

:24:14.:24:17.

things that John has said, there were solutions that he had been

:24:17.:24:20.

what he was talking about, things like ending the automatic early

:24:20.:24:24.

release of prisoners, things, for example, like the presumption of

:24:25.:24:29.

going to jail if you are caught carrying a knife. There are issues

:24:29.:24:32.

about public safety, you are talking about areas where we know

:24:32.:24:37.

there are crime hotspots. Let's get more police officers in, let's make

:24:37.:24:42.

sure we are doing proactive justice policies about the collective

:24:42.:24:46.

protection of society rather than the individual rights of people who

:24:46.:24:50.

have broken that protection. John had some excellent points which are

:24:50.:24:54.

worth coming back to. What you are saying is part and parcel of the

:24:54.:24:59.

way that I would like to see things going. I have a very close

:24:59.:25:02.

relationship with Strathclyde Police in Inverclyde, these

:25:02.:25:07.

officers are out working their socks off, in danger, against

:25:07.:25:11.

people taking drugs, people over drinking, things we have spoken

:25:11.:25:16.

about so far. They get them to the court, I am not trying to make a

:25:16.:25:21.

funny joke or anything, but prisoners go to the bar and before

:25:21.:25:25.

the officers can sign their release sheets they are waving to them in

:25:25.:25:28.

taxis going out of court. They have been let out on bail, told to come

:25:28.:25:33.

back at another period of time. Some guys have had to go to the

:25:33.:25:37.

court, we have been told this from people down there, they have been

:25:37.:25:40.

summoned to the court to find out what charges they were facing on

:25:40.:25:44.

that date, because they have so many behind them they did not know

:25:44.:25:52.

which one they were going up for. We need to give it a chance to

:25:52.:25:57.

work... The this is a UK-wide thing, because of financial pressures,

:25:57.:26:00.

sentencing will now be proportionate to the level of the

:26:00.:26:07.

crime. That is quite difficult to assess sometimes. If somebody shows

:26:07.:26:12.

signs of violence, who knows how dangerous they might be in future?

:26:12.:26:16.

It is entirely subjective, there is an assumption by you can do almost

:26:16.:26:22.

a box-ticking purpose, wife is just not like that. But his and the

:26:22.:26:26.

cheap and not very cheerful option what Peter is saying, making scary

:26:26.:26:32.

and frightening? It doesn't work. What do you mean? It worked when we

:26:32.:26:37.

had it... I think you have very rose-tinted views of what happened

:26:37.:26:45.

in the 1950s. I think you do. need to look... ALL TALK AT ONCE.

:26:45.:26:55.

We had raised the gangs in Glasgow in the 50s. -- razor gangs.

:26:55.:27:02.

legacy for John has won the person who killed his son served his time

:27:02.:27:06.

-- it is when the person who killed his son served his time is that he

:27:06.:27:10.

left there in a situation of mind that he would not do a job -- would

:27:10.:27:15.

not do that again. That would be when we had done our job as a

:27:15.:27:20.

society to pay tribute to John's son. What would have changed his

:27:20.:27:27.

life in prison? A very intensive work... Can we afford it? Can we

:27:27.:27:31.

not afford it? There is never enough money but you have to make

:27:31.:27:36.

choices on priorities. I am hearing, rightly so, our priority is to keep

:27:36.:27:42.

the streets safer. Craig, you work with offenders in a Christian

:27:42.:27:46.

charity. What about giving people focus and religion? It is less

:27:46.:27:51.

about giving them religion, it is treating them in a fair and

:27:51.:27:54.

balanced way. We work with people who come out of prison, they get

:27:54.:27:59.

support, they are not humiliated and put in the luminous jackets and

:27:59.:28:04.

stigmatised, we tried to help them become part of the community again

:28:04.:28:07.

so that families do not feel stigmatised, they can work with

:28:07.:28:12.

each other again and give something back to the community.

:28:12.:28:15.

shouldn't people be stigmatised if they had ruined the lives of their

:28:15.:28:23.

neighbours? We want them to change. Actually, it will change them, it

:28:23.:28:32.

works. It won't. When do you want the punishment to stop? This lady

:28:32.:28:38.

at the back, good morning. I work with a youth project in the

:28:38.:28:43.

community and I think what I am hearing is the punishment is a

:28:43.:28:49.

short-term fixed for -- a short- term fix. We need to mobilise the

:28:49.:28:52.

community to take responsibility for the community, and perhaps look

:28:52.:28:58.

at funding for the voluntary sector who can them kind of partnership

:28:58.:29:02.

prisons and stuff and three some of the funding so that prisoners can

:29:02.:29:07.

actually get some support long-term, and that would obviously have an

:29:07.:29:17.
:29:17.:29:20.

effect on offending in the future I would like to finish my.. About

:29:20.:29:26.

15 months ago, we were fortunate to be invited to meet the lord

:29:26.:29:31.

advocate and we explained our concerns about how things were

:29:31.:29:36.

going in the Justice Department, the police working, the lack of

:29:36.:29:40.

rehabilitation, the lack of opportunity to redress the

:29:40.:29:44.

situation of somebody who had committed a crime. One of the most

:29:44.:29:51.

important ones we asked about, when we received information, when the

:29:51.:29:56.

child was complete, they said the person who killed my son got 15

:29:56.:30:00.

years, that was the punishment part of his sentence, and he would not

:30:00.:30:08.

be entitled to release until 2022. We thought that was fine. We asked

:30:08.:30:13.

-- we were asked if we would like to join the victims' insurance

:30:13.:30:23.
:30:23.:30:24.

scheme, we signed up for that. The Scottish Prison organisation wrote

:30:24.:30:29.

back to us. But it said, we must advise you, under Prison Rule No.

:30:29.:30:37.

15, in a best-case scenario, this man could be having home visits and

:30:37.:30:42.

work placements four years before the end of his sentence. That was

:30:42.:30:47.

bad enough. The punishment part was done by a judge, an elected person

:30:47.:30:51.

to office. These people are in their taking those decisions and

:30:51.:31:01.

they are not elected. Put other responsible to? From the letters

:31:01.:31:06.

from the lord advocate Kayleigh -- clearly indicate they have concerns

:31:06.:31:11.

themselves. Thank you for talking about this.

:31:11.:31:17.

We pay tribute to Damian. If you have something to say about that

:31:17.:31:25.

And follow the link to our message board.

:31:25.:31:29.

We're also debating live this morning from Glasgow: Is it time to

:31:29.:31:32.

free Palestine? Tell us what you think about those topics. Or send

:31:32.:31:37.

us any general comments you'd like to make about the programme.

:31:37.:31:40.

In September, the United Nations will vote on whether Palestine

:31:40.:31:42.

should be recognised as an independent state within the

:31:42.:31:46.

borders that existed before the 1967 Six Day War. With the peace

:31:46.:31:49.

talks at an impasse, and conditions within Gaza fast deteriorating, the

:31:50.:31:52.

UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestinian Refugees said this

:31:52.:31:58.

week: "It is hard to understand the the logic of a man-made policy

:31:58.:32:00.

which deliberately impoverishes so many, and condemns hundreds of

:32:00.:32:07.

thousands of potentially productive people to a life of destitution."

:32:07.:32:17.
:32:17.:32:19.

Is it time to free Palestine? When that flow Taylor was

:32:19.:32:29.
:32:29.:32:30.

confronted by the Israeli forces, you were on that, Hasan Nowarah.

:32:30.:32:37.

You are going away on their own age, very -- you are going away on an

:32:37.:32:42.

aid convoy in two days. You are not going to stop and to use a

:32:42.:32:49.

Palestine is truly free. What you mean? To sustain itself, where

:32:49.:32:56.

there is no starvation, knows slickness, people can live the same

:32:56.:33:01.

as the British can. What kind of state will it be? An independent

:33:01.:33:07.

Palestinian state. Human rights? With her mass at the forefront,

:33:07.:33:13.

many people worry about human rights. If you were to ask the

:33:13.:33:19.

Palestine people, the world has witnessed the 1996 elections. They

:33:19.:33:23.

have seen the Palestinians say in the elections, a huge majority has

:33:23.:33:31.

voted for Hamas. They came in to serve the Palestinian situation.

:33:31.:33:37.

There is democracy in Palestine. Immediately, the Americans and

:33:37.:33:44.

Israeli occupation did not like this and imposed sanctions. What

:33:44.:33:48.

kind of state should this be? free and democratic state for

:33:48.:33:54.

everyone irrespective of Jew, Christian... One single state for

:33:54.:34:02.

all inhabitants of Palestine, the Holy Land. Guaranteed human rights

:34:02.:34:10.

for every individual. Has the so- called Arab Spring changed the

:34:10.:34:19.

context? Yes, they have design themselves as the only democracy in

:34:19.:34:29.
:34:29.:34:32.

the Middle East, which is not true. It is a total myth. A one that

:34:32.:34:36.

stage solution which you believe it should be headed towards, what is

:34:36.:34:43.

now called Palestine, what is now Israel, should be one state? May be

:34:43.:34:49.

we mean -- maybe we need an interim solution, to build up confidence.

:34:49.:34:54.

To bring people together. The ultimate target is there should be

:34:54.:34:57.

human rights for all, not on the basis of your religious or cultural

:34:57.:35:07.
:35:07.:35:08.

background. Sam Westrop, how do you respond to that? It is time to free

:35:08.:35:16.

Palestine, Gaza and the west Bank from the grip of Hamas. I'm

:35:16.:35:22.

surprised you call Hamas democratically elected. 51% of this

:35:23.:35:29.

room it voted to murder the other 49%, that would not make it a

:35:29.:35:36.

Democratic budget met democracy. Hamas froze its political -- throws

:35:36.:35:41.

its political opponents from rooftops. You are calling for one

:35:41.:35:46.

solution. I have many Jewish friends who are very much involved

:35:46.:35:50.

in human rights. Hamas calls for the murder of these people. I ask

:35:50.:35:58.

you, do you support Hamas? You talk about democracy. Let us take the

:35:58.:36:06.

1947 vote which brought Israel into being, the Western Christian

:36:06.:36:10.

nations voting. You talk about democracy. That wasn't a true

:36:10.:36:17.

democracy. Let us go back to the 1947 resolution which said we would

:36:17.:36:20.

have two states and an international zone for Jerusalem.

:36:20.:36:27.

To you, Jerusalem is the eternal capital for a people that control

:36:27.:36:31.

the Holy Land for less than 300 years in recorded history. In the

:36:31.:36:39.

United Nations proposal, it is well accepted, the Arabs rejected and

:36:39.:36:47.

invaded. -- Israel accepted. this not unsustainable, many people

:36:47.:36:57.

see Palestine as a prison state. Whose fault is that? Isa with Hamas,

:36:57.:37:07.
:37:07.:37:09.

Fatah, murderous corrupt governments. The life expectancy in

:37:09.:37:15.

the Gaza is better than in Glasgow. As for this great myth of this

:37:15.:37:20.

terrible situation, I am not so sure. I do not doubt that it is not

:37:20.:37:30.

a free society. He is talking about a mass killing its own people. I

:37:30.:37:40.
:37:40.:37:40.

would like to see what about the uranium used by the Israelis, F 16,

:37:40.:37:47.

in 2008, we have seen it aggressive war against the Palestine people

:37:47.:37:51.

but the most corrupted regime in the Middle East, the state of

:37:51.:38:01.
:38:01.:38:06.

Israel. Raymond, how would you help the people of Gaza? The people of

:38:06.:38:12.

Gaza, the Palestinians have been suffering since 1948 through the

:38:12.:38:17.

Arab world treating them badly, the Palestinian leadership. This is the

:38:17.:38:23.

soft face of the Palestinian plight, always hanging on to justice and

:38:23.:38:26.

democracy and using our own freedoms against us. When you

:38:26.:38:33.

listen to the words this be to themselves, from 1947, the move to

:38:33.:38:41.

a pet bird to find out how to kill Jews. Keeping them in the camps.

:38:41.:38:44.

Arafat, we will make Jews so uncomfortable they won't want to

:38:44.:38:50.

live with an Arab. Today, a bass who does not know what is going on.

:38:50.:38:56.

You are not ready for the state, you are intent on destroying the

:38:56.:39:04.

Jewish nation. The Jews came from today. You have created your own

:39:04.:39:12.

Disneyland of disaster. somebody who is against ghettos,

:39:12.:39:21.

why did you crate them? You created neurone ghetto. Sending suicide

:39:21.:39:31.
:39:31.:39:41.

bombers in. Raymond, let us listen. We will go to a panel in a minute.

:39:41.:39:50.

You wouldn't be end to do your at if... I cannot do might at its

:39:50.:39:56.

Saudi Arabia, but that is not enough to tell them children can't

:39:56.:40:02.

get to hospitals, and take Israeli the sewage and put it into other

:40:02.:40:09.

people's land. It is rarely is regularly take Palestinian

:40:09.:40:16.

civilians into their own hospitals. One the second. All I have heard

:40:16.:40:20.

you say it is Hamas killing homosexuals. We are not getting

:40:20.:40:28.

anywhere here. I am going to come to the panel now. I was going to

:40:28.:40:34.

say the voice of reason. Then I had a look. Peter Hitchens, is it time

:40:34.:40:39.

for a free Palestine? What you mean by, free? Badenoch think the

:40:40.:40:43.

Palestinian of body has a good record on freedom, it invented the

:40:43.:40:48.

first technique for censoring TV broadcasts, of its own Parliament.

:40:48.:40:53.

It has been extremely repressive, it has used torture. The Christian

:40:53.:40:59.

minority are very badly treated. That is rubbish. It isn't rubbish.

:40:59.:41:05.

I have spoken to Palestinian Arabs in Bethlehem and they have told me

:41:05.:41:10.

this. As Christians they feel extremely badly treated by the

:41:10.:41:14.

Palestinian of parity and abandoned. In many cases they were better

:41:14.:41:20.

under Israeli rule. Looking for Arabs living under free conditions,

:41:20.:41:27.

those in Israel are probably the most free in the Middle East. It

:41:27.:41:31.

eluded -- it is ridiculous to claim for other side they have the

:41:31.:41:35.

monopoly of morality because both sides have done terrible things.

:41:35.:41:40.

The sensible thing is compromise. Half the problem arises because of

:41:40.:41:45.

the desired by politicians outside to find an ideal solution. An Arab

:41:45.:41:49.

Israeli acquaintance said to me the last time I was there in September,

:41:49.:41:55.

as we drove into Ramallah, how I long for the good old days before

:41:55.:42:00.

Peace! In the Times before the world started to try to reach a

:42:00.:42:05.

final settlement of the Palestine Israel question, everyone lived a

:42:06.:42:10.

lot better, on better terms. There are signs of this now because of

:42:10.:42:16.

the absence of the tense for reform. If you go to reminder or Gaza, you

:42:16.:42:25.

will find shopping malls. I had a good beef stroganoff in Gaza. There

:42:25.:42:30.

are pleasant parks on the Gaza Strip with rich people. The United

:42:30.:42:33.

Arab Emirates has done fantastic work building good housing, the

:42:33.:42:43.
:42:43.:42:43.

kind which should have been put up 40 years ago. I absolutely despair

:42:43.:42:50.

of this. I had a really nice meal in Moscow and in Leningrad when

:42:50.:42:58.

Brezhnev was at his worst. And? What of it? It is true that Arab

:42:58.:43:07.

people were deprived of their land and homes. No matter what has

:43:07.:43:10.

happened in the meantime, and I take what you say about both sides

:43:10.:43:14.

being dreadful to each other, there have been terrible things done by

:43:14.:43:19.

both sides and far too many lies have been wasted, too many families

:43:19.:43:25.

have been broken up. It has to stop at some point. But it won't be any

:43:25.:43:29.

words we speak here, it will be dependent on what is happening in

:43:29.:43:34.

America and American politics. Barack Obama was the first American

:43:34.:43:39.

President to speak out against the maintenance of the artificial state

:43:39.:43:45.

of Israel, whether you have a one state solution eventually all two

:43:45.:43:49.

state. I believe it is artificial. It doesn't have the boundaries that

:43:49.:43:59.
:43:59.:44:01.

could be agreed between people who Obama spoke out. And what happened?

:44:01.:44:07.

He had to pull back. He had tipple back because the United Nations

:44:07.:44:12.

needed his backing to make sure they took some sort of action -- he

:44:12.:44:20.

had to pull back. Our country's diplomacy is very active. In the

:44:20.:44:23.

European Union we spend enormous amounts, much of it given to

:44:23.:44:28.

Palestinian causes in the area. Our interest in that part of the world

:44:28.:44:31.

is considerable, although responsibility is enormous, because

:44:31.:44:36.

our declaration began the whole thing. As a country we have a very

:44:36.:44:41.

great responsibility. I am just saying, if it means we have an

:44:41.:44:48.

important role. As a writer and expert in such matters, who has

:44:48.:44:55.

most to fear from the Arab spring? Israel or Hamas? It depends on what

:44:55.:45:00.

happens in the end, we don't know what will happen. Let's hear his

:45:00.:45:05.

answer. Can we hear his answer? Palestine does not have depleted

:45:05.:45:15.

uranium, helicopters... ALL TALK AT ONCE. The Palestinian people who

:45:15.:45:20.

have been... I will have to go to the panel again. Excuse me, please,

:45:20.:45:25.

one second. He barely got a sentence out, let him answer.

:45:25.:45:29.

too early to know what will happen with the so-called Arab spring. In

:45:29.:45:33.

places like Egypt, it is very clear that the Muslim Brotherhood is very

:45:33.:45:38.

likely, not, perhaps, in the first election, but by the second... They

:45:38.:45:42.

have tried to get into power for a long time, if they come into power

:45:42.:45:49.

they are linked to the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood.

:45:49.:45:59.
:45:59.:45:59.

The Hamas Charter, the Hezbollah and other constitutions are quite

:45:59.:46:07.

clear - no peace, no negotiations, no compromise. They would drive the

:46:07.:46:12.

Jews out of Israel or Hamas particularly would kill all the

:46:12.:46:18.

Jews. LAUGHTER. Mahmoud Abbas in the last couple of weeks has stated

:46:18.:46:22.

quite clearly that in any future Palestinian state, he says, not for

:46:22.:46:26.

the first time, there will be no Jews whatever, no Jew will be

:46:26.:46:30.

allowed to set foot. That is why the whole idea of the one state

:46:30.:46:34.

solution becomes quite chilling, because in effect they will do what

:46:35.:46:44.
:46:45.:46:45.

the Nazis tried to do, make the whole of Palestine to free. -- Jew-

:46:45.:46:55.
:46:55.:46:57.

free. We are not anti-Jewish such. Are your people are ready to do a

:46:57.:47:03.

reverse holocaust on the Jews? Is he telling the truth? ALL TALK AT

:47:03.:47:07.

ONCE. All eyes see his women and children being thrown out of their

:47:07.:47:12.

houses while Jewish people move in and go, I have got another house!

:47:12.:47:21.

APPLAUSE. I need to know. The one line and look up the Hamas Charter.

:47:21.:47:29.

-- go online and look up the Hamas Charter. Is this not true?!

:47:29.:47:35.

Hamas Charter is dedicated to the... Let me ask the question before you

:47:35.:47:39.

give an answer, call me old fashioned. As Palestinian people we

:47:39.:47:43.

are Jewish, we are Muslims, we are Christians. We have Palestinian

:47:43.:47:49.

Jewish living in Nablus as we speak. A have their religion freely, their

:47:49.:47:52.

power stations. What about the destruction of Israel in the

:47:52.:48:02.
:48:02.:48:08.

charter? None whatsoever. ALL TALK AT ONCE. Hamas has agreed to be a

:48:08.:48:12.

Palestinian dependent state in 1967 and will have a true start ALL TALK

:48:12.:48:21.

AT ONCE. Let me ask Tadgh Hardy, an academic and a man of reason, how

:48:21.:48:31.
:48:31.:48:31.

do we handle this situation -- let me ask harsh Hardy. The idea that

:48:31.:48:34.

one group of people can annihilate undo a reverse Holocaust is

:48:34.:48:40.

absolutely out. What do you mean? The Jews have a right there but not

:48:40.:48:44.

an exclusive right. The Old Testament is not a title deed to

:48:44.:48:51.

Palestine. The Old Testament is not a title deed. APPLAUSE. They cannot

:48:51.:48:55.

claim exclusive rights to the Holy Land. The Old Testament is not a

:48:56.:49:03.

title deed to Palestine, but we are talking about 5000 years, which of

:49:03.:49:08.

Abraham's sons is entitled to the land? Religion is the problem, it

:49:08.:49:13.

is all your fault. It always is! Many of these conversations come

:49:13.:49:16.

about because people perceive the world through what they believe to

:49:16.:49:21.

be true, we need to help people and pack that. Continuing the meal

:49:21.:49:25.

theme of my colleagues, I was serving meals in a Church of

:49:25.:49:30.

Scotland hotel in Tiberius in 1983 when the accord was announced, and

:49:30.:49:34.

there was a huge sense of talk -- hope because this was an

:49:34.:49:39.

opportunity to actually talk rather than shout or take this bit of

:49:39.:49:43.

history against that bit of history, or to throw religion as weapons. We

:49:43.:49:47.

have lost sight of that. My own view about your original question,

:49:47.:49:52.

do they need to be two separate states, it is probably yes. Not

:49:52.:49:57.

because we want to decide -- define which those states are, but as a

:49:57.:50:00.

family, because the Jews and Palestinians who live there are

:50:00.:50:08.

related because they both come from that area, that family needs a bit

:50:08.:50:14.

of space so it can come back together again and talk as we

:50:14.:50:20.

nearly did... Ultimately, where should we be heading? We need to

:50:20.:50:24.

get will place where either you have a union, perhaps, I hesitate

:50:24.:50:28.

to say, like we have in this country, States part of a bigger

:50:28.:50:33.

union, or we come to the conclusion where they conclude together they

:50:33.:50:37.

can live at one stage. At the present time, that is clearly not

:50:37.:50:41.

possible. Raymond, why will that never be possible, equal rights,

:50:41.:50:48.

living in one state? In 2000 and us that -- 2011, many would agree that

:50:48.:50:52.

a state based on one ethnic identity is unsustainable and

:50:52.:50:57.

unacceptable? I think there is a misunderstanding of what it means

:50:57.:51:03.

to be the Jewish state, and the Bible is the document that owns it.

:51:03.:51:06.

Israel is the place where the nationhood of the Jewish people was

:51:06.:51:14.

born, as much as Scotland is the... Excuse me, may I finish. That is

:51:14.:51:20.

incorrect! May I finish? For 2000 years we were persecuted as a race,

:51:20.:51:28.

or the sudden we are now a religion. Excuse me. ALL TALK AT ONCE. Israel

:51:28.:51:33.

is a legitimate state recognised by the United... It is not. It is an

:51:33.:51:38.

occupation. A recognised by international law. It is an illegal

:51:38.:51:43.

occupation. They keep going on, they throw words like occupation

:51:43.:51:47.

and settlements, the core of the matter is that they wanted to

:51:47.:51:51.

destroy the state of Israel from the very beginning. First they

:51:51.:51:55.

tried to do it with weapons, now that is not working so they are

:51:55.:52:00.

trying to do it politically. It is marvellous machinery. I have been

:52:00.:52:04.

two meetings in Glasgow, I hear how you direct the Western a year what

:52:04.:52:10.

to say and think. I was at a meeting, there was anti-Semitism

:52:10.:52:16.

and Bath Street in Glasgow are talking about the evil doers.

:52:16.:52:25.

use that phrase? -- who used to that phrase? They were all clapping.

:52:25.:52:31.

ALL TALK AT ONCE. I was once called a nasty Protestant but it did not

:52:31.:52:36.

have been here. That is not what we're talking about, we are talking

:52:36.:52:40.

about an illegal occupation, not because somebody once said you were

:52:40.:52:50.
:52:50.:52:57.

a bad due. How would you guarantee the security? -- a bad Jew. Please

:52:57.:53:04.

be quiet, how would you secured the security of Israel? Would you put

:53:04.:53:09.

Israeli security first before the Palestinian? I am trying to put

:53:09.:53:18.

both sides. Her is the victim here?! Who is the victim here?!

:53:18.:53:26.

for it! ALL TALK AT ONCE. Security is your side of the

:53:26.:53:29.

argument? ALL TALK AT ONCE.

:53:29.:53:33.

Here is an old-fashioned concept, let's see what he has to save.

:53:33.:53:39.

have been talking about the past, it has to be about the future, per

:53:39.:53:45.

-- piece, and the security for both states. I believe in a 2 state

:53:45.:53:49.

solution. The apartheid wall has pushed suicide bombings down for

:53:49.:53:58.

92%. Well, well done for building and apartheid wall! Any 2 state

:53:58.:54:03.

solution has to be secure for both sides. The 67 borders are

:54:03.:54:08.

indefensible, something must be worked out. This is a diplomatic

:54:08.:54:12.

ploy. They are not sitting down with the Israelis and working out

:54:12.:54:17.

how to stop the violence and enter peas and resolution...

:54:17.:54:21.

Palestinians have to accept what people refer to as illegal

:54:21.:54:29.

settlements? Through here is concerned, I am sorry... Who here

:54:29.:54:32.

is concerned, as we ought to be, about the conditioning of the

:54:32.:54:36.

people? The real question is particularly the state of the

:54:36.:54:39.

people who are now the descendants of those expelled from Israel at

:54:39.:54:44.

its foundation in 1948. They have not in any way benefited from more

:54:44.:54:49.

than 60 years of war and conflict. If 63 years. They have not

:54:49.:54:53.

benefited, they are not intended to, they are being used as poster boys

:54:53.:54:58.

by a constant campaign to do legitimises row. If we are really

:54:58.:55:04.

concerned about the condition of the people, trying to leave... Be

:55:04.:55:09.

quiet for a moment, I have heard your case and I am trying... Let's

:55:09.:55:15.

hear him. I shall finish my sentence. I wish to finish my

:55:15.:55:18.

sentence. If you are concerned about how men, women and children

:55:18.:55:21.

can live in a civilised fashion alongside their neighbours, this

:55:21.:55:27.

kind of slow agonising will get you absolutely nowhere and will lead

:55:27.:55:33.

only two more bombs, more wars and terror. Do you really want that or

:55:33.:55:37.

do you want a civilised compromise? If you were shouting earlier. The

:55:37.:55:41.

guy back their washout in a few minutes ago and now he has the

:55:41.:55:46.

microphone. -- the guy back there was shouting a few minutes ago.

:55:46.:55:51.

was wondering what time my lips and my tongue would be free, I had my

:55:51.:55:56.

hand up for minutes at a time. I went to Gaza and eyes or the

:55:56.:56:00.

condition of the people with my own eyes. Honestly, it is not laughable,

:56:00.:56:05.

it is sickening for people to say they throw words like occupation.

:56:05.:56:09.

There are people there who are starving. The whole of Gaza is

:56:09.:56:14.

turned into a charity case by Israel, and you call this justice?

:56:14.:56:17.

There is something fundamentally skewed about the West when they

:56:17.:56:22.

talk about Palestine. You ask about the rights of the oppressor and you

:56:22.:56:26.

want the oppressed are to secure the oppressor's rights? It is

:56:26.:56:31.

madness! It is complete madness. But Palestinians are being asked to

:56:31.:56:37.

live in 8% of their historic land. Israel is a state which was created

:56:37.:56:44.

by theft and murder, by theft and murder. APPLAUSE. And we need to

:56:44.:56:48.

address the original role. What fault was it of the Palestinians

:56:48.:56:53.

that Hitler murdered 6 million Jews? What fault was it of us?

:56:53.:57:00.

is my job now to go to you and get a response. What sport is it of the

:57:00.:57:03.

Palestinians? The leader of the Grand mufti... He said a state

:57:03.:57:10.

created by theft and murder. correct. The Jews who went there

:57:10.:57:15.

bought it from Arab landowners. tiny percentage of land. ALL TALK

:57:15.:57:23.

AT ONCE. At that time, and Mark Twain wrote

:57:23.:57:29.

about it, how desolate the land was, how desolate... You weren't there,

:57:29.:57:37.

he was! Now, when the agricultural Jews came from Russia and went back

:57:37.:57:41.

to their original homeland of the Jewish people, they brought the

:57:41.:57:45.

technology of Western agriculture, they created a bread basket that

:57:45.:57:49.

attracted Arabs from all around to come to that land and they

:57:49.:57:53.

increased the number of Arabs living there. They were welcome to

:57:53.:57:57.

begin with, but there was a faction started to Barbados what the Jews

:57:57.:58:05.

there at all. Even when Israel went in and... Went in after the 66 war,

:58:05.:58:11.

they opened up these camps, they tried to introduce fresh water and

:58:11.:58:13.

electricity but the fundamentalists... We are out of

:58:13.:58:18.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS