Episode 20 The Big Questions

Episode 20

Nicky Campbell presents the topical debates live from Hutchesons' Grammar School in Glasgow.

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Good morning, welcome to the last edition of The Big Questions in


this series. I'm Nicky Campbell. Next week, Ken Clarke's sentencing


paper will finally be published. It's unlikely to be warmly received


by all sides of this coalition government.


Our first Big Question: Are we too soft on criminals?


This father says his son could still be alive if his killer had


been imprisoned for previous crimes. And, a UN report shows a tripling


of abject poverty in Gaza since Israel imposed its blockade five


years ago this week, Our next Big Question: Is it time to free


Palestine? This Palestinian says conditions in


Gaza are now unbearable, and will only be alleviated under a freed


state. We're live from Hutchesons Grammar


School in Glasgow, with a lively Scottish audience.


And sitting on high we have: The Mail on Sunday columnist, Peter


Hitchens. Secretary to the Church and Society


Committee of the Church of Scotland, the Reverend Ewan Aitken.


Columnist and Independent Member of the Scottish Parliament for the


Lothians, Margo MacDonald. New guidelines on sentences for


assault announced this week were denounced by Tory backbenchers as


the work of "the liberal-minded judicial elite", who are


"completely out of touch with public opinion". What will they


make of Ken Clarke's plans to save money with more community service


orders, and fewer short term prison sentences? Are we too soft on


criminals? It is a debate happening all over the UK. Peter Hitchens, if


you were in charge, what should prisons before?


They should be to shock the people who are sent to them and frighten


the people thinking of committing crimes into not committing them.


People should encounter them much earlier in their criminal careers.


Now you can commit as many as 15 crimes and still not be sent to


prison. It is still harder to get into prison than University! People


have to try hard for criminals to be sent there. They are often


turned out very quickly, rehabilitation is a myth. The only


serious purpose of prison was punishment and that has been


abandoned. As a result, prison as an expense is not designed to deter


those sent there, or the people who think it might be worthwhile


committing crime, and 30 years ago would have thought they wouldn't do


that, now reckon the rest is worthwhile. Rehabilitation is a


myth? It is a rather totalitarian idea, to change somebody's


character. It is a Christian idea. It is not a change of character, we


are talking about people who have, for many reasons, been badly


brought up, they have seen the police and withdrawn from the


streets, misbehaved and nothing happens to them, they get Committee


service which has no effect. They commit further crimes And Nothing


continues to happen, their fines are not collected. They learn not


to take the criminal-justice system seriously. The first time you meet


the criminal justice system you should realise it is serious. With


hours, you can meet it 20 times and know it is not serious. Peter


misses the point. You can have an authoritarian father model of the


system which is where you can beat your system -- children into


submission. All the paternal model where the task is to make sure you


find the full potential of the individual. It is hard when people


do awful things. If the way we approach folk, particularly those


who do bad things, if we make them feel worse, we will never change


them. The fundamental task of the justice system must be to bring


about change. That his own -- that is the only way. You can certainly


changed people but not by changing their character. You can teach them


if they do certain things which they know to be wrong, they will be


punished. That is instilling fear in them. If there is anyone in this


room who has never been motivated not to do something I fear, or who


claims they haven't, they are lying. You were in prison for seven months,


sentenced to 15. Possession of speed. Your father was a prison


officer. You feel you were made an example of. If it had been harsher,


is there an argument you and others would have said, that is scary, I


do not want to go back? Scary for myself. But, that was 13 years ago.


It is not like we one per -- Willy Wonka prisons. They are afraid of


hurting people's civil rights. Computers. Food. Take away their


liberty and they have lost their family. And they have lost their


reputation. And they have probably lost the chance of the Korea they


wanted. Just by taking away their liberty, you are punishing them. I


am sorry they have given up thumbscrews! Don't be silly. This


isn't a matter of torture, but about undergoing an austere


punitive experience in a civilised prison system. Be sensible. I am


being sensible. I think he is being altogether too broad-brush in his


approach. Not everyone responds in the same way to a harsh regime.


Some people would, they might be frightened out of their lives.


Others would become more violent in response. I don't think there is


any evidence of that. When criminals fall out among themselves,


they instil fear in each other. People commit crime because they


decide to do it. They decide to rob their fellow creatures and to be


violent. 70% of the 16-25-year-old men in jail have some form of


dyslexia or reading issue and have struggled in the education system.


The choices they have and the capacity to make those choices


Barbara is limited. We have to understand if we are to sort out


the justice system, we have to start in those aged below three.


That is not an excuse to commit crime. Other figures, 80% of women


in prison have mental health problems. 50% have been abused. The


cost of reoffending for England and Wales, the reoffending rates are


horrific. You have to get in early and dealing with these things.


don't send sick women to prison. Will we ever have enough money to


deal with this? You're wet -- what is the way ahead? Before been Chief


Inspector of Prisons, I was in the SAS. I thought like Peter then.


Having seen the reality of prison over eight years, I began to


realise prison isn't just about deterrence or punishment, its main


purpose must be, because it is so expensive, is to prevent future


victims of crime. To kick the public's saved. What isn't


recognised his sentences are getting much longer, far more life


sentences. I don't have any difficulty with that, that includes


women. At the other end of the scale, we are extremely soft on


potential criminals, mixing -- and I would also a Grier the plight of


women in Scotland is a disgrace. There are petty offenders in jail


because no one else can think what to do with them, a terrible


situation. What about those short sentences? Are you talking about


community punishment orders? If you are going to have short sentences,


you need more prison officers, you need role models. Very well trained.


We do not have that. As a country, we cannot afford it. The cheaper


option, community punishments, are a bit weak. We can afford it if we


want to come and we just need to stop subsidising the nuclear bomb,


to stop spending money on those things. It is not just about waste


of money but waste of lives. would you make the community


punishment orders harsher? I have no difficulty, one of the problems


with prison is everything goes on behind closed doors, most people


have no idea. Including yourself, Peter. On the contrary, I have


visited many prisons in this country and elsewhere. I accept


that, but so have I. They are physically warehouses where people


are kept until we let them out. make it tougher at the same time?


At the moment they are unpleasant in the wrong way. They are largely


run by the inmates and not the authorities. The nor do they have


any purpose other than incarceration. The prisoner


Doherty's Fry and the prisons. What are you saying about community


punishment? It is not visible enough. Prison is totally invisible.


If you are going to switch to the cheaper option, they need to be


tougher and more visible. I have no problem with those doing community


punishments to be visible, if necessary, wearing a high-


visibility jacket so we all know who they are. The thing that has


changed me when I was in the military, was going through


humiliation. Humiliation? Shame prevented me after a while from


committing some of the offences I otherwise would have done. What you


think about that, spotting those? There is no point putting people in


prison if we are not addressing the reasons why people are offending in


the first place. What about visibility, Committee punishment?


Not if it doesn't make a difference to why people are committing


offences. If they have mental health issues. If they have lost


contact with social support to keep them out of prison. You are put in


them in a worse position. But they would be in contact with their


families, just with high-visibility jackets. Shame, Clyde said.


failed to address why they are committing crimes. People commit


crimes because they are selfish and think they can get away with it.


There is a huge industry which makes excuses for these people. It


is subsidised by the state. They are actually wrong, people commit


crime because they decide they can get away with it and they are


selfish. They will not be stopped by people making excuses for them.


They usually live a long way away from them. I asked this in


seriousness, Peter has said he has visited prisons in many countries,


does anybody have a good Template, a better way of treating people who


offend against society? We used to in this country before the prisons


were liberalised. I'm talking about now. Nobody has a good prison


I would not go for the American model, for instance. You speak


about harsh regimes, people talk about Bangkok, it is very


unpleasant. It is squalid. How far would you go? You need to look at


what we did until the Liberal Revolution in the 60s. People went


to prison, they did not have telephones, there were no drugs,


prison officers were in charge, they worked hard. The circumstances


of their live... Slopping out? against that, it is humiliating.


Prisons should be clean but austere, the food should be basic, there


should be a lot of work but no comfort. You should come back not


wanting to go back in. Not cruelty, but austerity. And education.


of the things we have not spoken about his why so many people are in


prison in Scotland, I can only speak for Scotland. One of the


reasons the prisons, especially the women's prisons, R full, is because


the drug laws do not work. If we fix the drug laws... Everybody has


to admit they are not working. About 95% of people are in prison


are through drugs. When I have a problem I go back to the beginning,


the beginning his heroine. When we saw buzz out we will clear the


prisons out. It is people who are awfully bad, need to be chained to


a sink and punched in the eye, according to you. We need to start


talking about first principles of what prisons are meant to do, they


are meant to be a deterrent and there must be sanctions if you are


considering a crime, they are mentally punishment would also


offer an opportunity for rehabilitation so it is not just a


conveyor belt. Drugs is a huge issue, particularly in Scotland,


there are no drug-free jails in Scotland. We don't do anywhere near


enough to get people, who lie in a captive environment would support


services, of drugs in prison -- who are in a captive environment with


the support services. One prison officer said to me there was a


massive issue for the passive smoking for prison officers of


cannabis. How are these drugs getting in? Far more needs to be


done. Maybe Clive can tell me about this, is it only two jails in


Scotland with drug-free wings? The rest of them don't? We don't screen


people going in, we don't have plexiglass, we don't check prison


officers - and there are many good ones but there are a couple of bad


eggs taking drugs in. Inside and outside prisons we do not enforce


the laws against drug possession. In England the majority of cases of


cannabis possession which the police bother with are dealt with


by a warning which involved no criminal record or proceedings.


Those are the ones the police bother with, many of them don't


bother. You would criminalise a lot of young people? If cannabis is an


illegal drug, if you break the law you criminalise yourself. You don't


criminalise a burglar by prosecuting him for burglary, you


criminalise a drug possessor... some point you stop knocking your


head against a brick wall when it is obvious to you you are alive and


knocking the wall down nor making your head feel better. -- you are


neither knocking the wall down nor making your head feel better. We


have had the same, I think, stupid drugs laws in this country for 30


years. It is worse now than it was since the drugs Forum in 1986, I


think it was. We need to look at which drugs will be criminalised,


because I would criminalise the ones which are being made very


quickly, we don't know what is in them and there is no quality


control, but I would decriminalise cannabis, I would have heroin


supplied through the medical... Yes! Cannabis was decriminalised


in 1971, there is no serious attempt to prosecute possession.


need to get back to prisons. I think it is important we talk about


victims. John, your son Damian, what happened to him? Listening to


what has been said today reminds me of many, many conversations we have


had with various companies of people, various parties, the same


as going into get a full vote on it. Everyone talks about what the


person who has committed the crime should be getting. Their civil


rights and civil liberties. It is an absolute damned disgrace when


the 8th 9th blow went into my son when he was lying in the ground,


his civil rights and civil liberties stop than -- when the 8th


knife blow. Yet we continually pander to the convicted persons in


jail. He had been in trouble before, it is important we say that.


person who did it? He was important -- in trouble before. What had he


done before? Two cases of disfigurement against him and two


possessions of knives. What sentence did he get? They had not


gone to court, that was over a year. In December 2006 he stabbed a man


in the neck and disfigured him, in Margie disfigured another man with


a bottle, 2007. In July 2007, he murdered my son. He was on other


charges still to come to court about time. I am listening here to


professional people talking about what prisoner should be getting.


They should be getting a harder time. They done what they don't...


APPLAUSE. I didn't encourage him to do it. We come from an area where


we thought we lived la safe, clean, quiet area without worrying about


these problems -- we thought we lived in a safe, clean, quiet area.


All of the MSPs seemed content that where they live, in the nice areas,


they are not facing the sharp end we are. My mam had a boyfriend who


tried to kill a woman before, then he tried to kill my mam, then he


finally murdered her and the police said she was an alcoholic, may be


problems happened, they did not even charge him, then he killed


another man. I understand a point of the victim. But I feel the


Prison Service needs a complete reform, it is not just about the


hardened criminals who kill people. The problem we have in the prisons


today, I know it is going back to an old subject, is the drugs. The


prisons are so full of dealing with drug addicts they are not dealing


with the hardened criminals. this man should not have been at


liberty? No. Irrespective, it happened, it is too late to do


anything about it now. People might look at it in the future, but the


main thing we should be looking at as a general public, including


professionals, is we should be trying to make sure that the


sentences are longer. If someone gets five years they do five years,


no early release. APPLAUSE. They should do five years if they


get five years? It is in all of our interest to protect the next victim.


It is a horrendous situation to be in. Sorry for cutting across, there


must be opportunity for the person who has broken the law to get


rehabilitation, that is in short supply from what you can hear from


the stage. Natalie? It is extremely important, but most people going


into prison are there for non- violent, non-sexual fish --


offences. We spoke to victims of non-violent offences about this,


they wanted something to address the issues, I have a stronger


community penalties or... By a strong enough community penalty for


somebody who has shown an inkling of violence is a risk. We are


talking about non-violent offenders. It is understandable for people who


are the danger to the public to stay in prison. It must be a public


sanction on public retribution, there must be a place for


individual rehabilitation. I am no fan of the United States... We know


that. But we need to take a leaf from them about community


sentencing. They do a great job. I was teaching in California or


Missouri, you have these were gangs cleaning up streets and parks and


so forth, they have a distinctive uniform -- work gangs. It is the


humiliation. It as an antidote to prevent people from committing more


crimes. If you had been wearing that distinctive uniform? You just


get a blue and white shirt and blue trousers, everybody wears that.


if it had been public, conspicuous and humiliating? If somebody is


therefore addiction or mental health issues and you have them


wearing a uniform of embarrassment, you could look at pushing them the


other way. Lots of people can't handle prison and take their own


lives. Why are we obsessed only about individual rights? We should


be concerned about public rights. This gentleman has lost his son.


That could have been better dealt with. If we take petty criminals


and drug addicts... That are a number of drug agencies and


rehabilitation centres in the country prepared to help people


with drug issues, it takes them away from the court. These people


in for the more serious crimes, like the guy who killed a


gentleman's son, he could have been dealt with and not been out to take


these things away from the public. I think some of the important


things that John has said, there were solutions that he had been


what he was talking about, things like ending the automatic early


release of prisoners, things, for example, like the presumption of


going to jail if you are caught carrying a knife. There are issues


about public safety, you are talking about areas where we know


there are crime hotspots. Let's get more police officers in, let's make


sure we are doing proactive justice policies about the collective


protection of society rather than the individual rights of people who


have broken that protection. John had some excellent points which are


worth coming back to. What you are saying is part and parcel of the


way that I would like to see things going. I have a very close


relationship with Strathclyde Police in Inverclyde, these


officers are out working their socks off, in danger, against


people taking drugs, people over drinking, things we have spoken


about so far. They get them to the court, I am not trying to make a


funny joke or anything, but prisoners go to the bar and before


the officers can sign their release sheets they are waving to them in


taxis going out of court. They have been let out on bail, told to come


back at another period of time. Some guys have had to go to the


court, we have been told this from people down there, they have been


summoned to the court to find out what charges they were facing on


that date, because they have so many behind them they did not know


which one they were going up for. We need to give it a chance to


work... The this is a UK-wide thing, because of financial pressures,


sentencing will now be proportionate to the level of the


crime. That is quite difficult to assess sometimes. If somebody shows


signs of violence, who knows how dangerous they might be in future?


It is entirely subjective, there is an assumption by you can do almost


a box-ticking purpose, wife is just not like that. But his and the


cheap and not very cheerful option what Peter is saying, making scary


and frightening? It doesn't work. What do you mean? It worked when we


had it... I think you have very rose-tinted views of what happened


in the 1950s. I think you do. need to look... ALL TALK AT ONCE.


We had raised the gangs in Glasgow in the 50s. -- razor gangs.


legacy for John has won the person who killed his son served his time


-- it is when the person who killed his son served his time is that he


left there in a situation of mind that he would not do a job -- would


not do that again. That would be when we had done our job as a


society to pay tribute to John's son. What would have changed his


life in prison? A very intensive work... Can we afford it? Can we


not afford it? There is never enough money but you have to make


choices on priorities. I am hearing, rightly so, our priority is to keep


the streets safer. Craig, you work with offenders in a Christian


charity. What about giving people focus and religion? It is less


about giving them religion, it is treating them in a fair and


balanced way. We work with people who come out of prison, they get


support, they are not humiliated and put in the luminous jackets and


stigmatised, we tried to help them become part of the community again


so that families do not feel stigmatised, they can work with


each other again and give something back to the community.


shouldn't people be stigmatised if they had ruined the lives of their


neighbours? We want them to change. Actually, it will change them, it


works. It won't. When do you want the punishment to stop? This lady


at the back, good morning. I work with a youth project in the


community and I think what I am hearing is the punishment is a


short-term fixed for -- a short- term fix. We need to mobilise the


community to take responsibility for the community, and perhaps look


at funding for the voluntary sector who can them kind of partnership


prisons and stuff and three some of the funding so that prisoners can


actually get some support long-term, and that would obviously have an


effect on offending in the future I would like to finish my.. About


15 months ago, we were fortunate to be invited to meet the lord


advocate and we explained our concerns about how things were


going in the Justice Department, the police working, the lack of


rehabilitation, the lack of opportunity to redress the


situation of somebody who had committed a crime. One of the most


important ones we asked about, when we received information, when the


child was complete, they said the person who killed my son got 15


years, that was the punishment part of his sentence, and he would not


be entitled to release until 2022. We thought that was fine. We asked


-- we were asked if we would like to join the victims' insurance


scheme, we signed up for that. The Scottish Prison organisation wrote


back to us. But it said, we must advise you, under Prison Rule No.


15, in a best-case scenario, this man could be having home visits and


work placements four years before the end of his sentence. That was


bad enough. The punishment part was done by a judge, an elected person


to office. These people are in their taking those decisions and


they are not elected. Put other responsible to? From the letters


from the lord advocate Kayleigh -- clearly indicate they have concerns


themselves. Thank you for talking about this.


We pay tribute to Damian. If you have something to say about that


And follow the link to our message board.


We're also debating live this morning from Glasgow: Is it time to


free Palestine? Tell us what you think about those topics. Or send


us any general comments you'd like to make about the programme.


In September, the United Nations will vote on whether Palestine


should be recognised as an independent state within the


borders that existed before the 1967 Six Day War. With the peace


talks at an impasse, and conditions within Gaza fast deteriorating, the


UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestinian Refugees said this


week: "It is hard to understand the the logic of a man-made policy


which deliberately impoverishes so many, and condemns hundreds of


thousands of potentially productive people to a life of destitution."


Is it time to free Palestine? When that flow Taylor was


confronted by the Israeli forces, you were on that, Hasan Nowarah.


You are going away on their own age, very -- you are going away on an


aid convoy in two days. You are not going to stop and to use a


Palestine is truly free. What you mean? To sustain itself, where


there is no starvation, knows slickness, people can live the same


as the British can. What kind of state will it be? An independent


Palestinian state. Human rights? With her mass at the forefront,


many people worry about human rights. If you were to ask the


Palestine people, the world has witnessed the 1996 elections. They


have seen the Palestinians say in the elections, a huge majority has


voted for Hamas. They came in to serve the Palestinian situation.


There is democracy in Palestine. Immediately, the Americans and


Israeli occupation did not like this and imposed sanctions. What


kind of state should this be? free and democratic state for


everyone irrespective of Jew, Christian... One single state for


all inhabitants of Palestine, the Holy Land. Guaranteed human rights


for every individual. Has the so- called Arab Spring changed the


context? Yes, they have design themselves as the only democracy in


the Middle East, which is not true. It is a total myth. A one that


stage solution which you believe it should be headed towards, what is


now called Palestine, what is now Israel, should be one state? May be


we mean -- maybe we need an interim solution, to build up confidence.


To bring people together. The ultimate target is there should be


human rights for all, not on the basis of your religious or cultural


background. Sam Westrop, how do you respond to that? It is time to free


Palestine, Gaza and the west Bank from the grip of Hamas. I'm


surprised you call Hamas democratically elected. 51% of this


room it voted to murder the other 49%, that would not make it a


Democratic budget met democracy. Hamas froze its political -- throws


its political opponents from rooftops. You are calling for one


solution. I have many Jewish friends who are very much involved


in human rights. Hamas calls for the murder of these people. I ask


you, do you support Hamas? You talk about democracy. Let us take the


1947 vote which brought Israel into being, the Western Christian


nations voting. You talk about democracy. That wasn't a true


democracy. Let us go back to the 1947 resolution which said we would


have two states and an international zone for Jerusalem.


To you, Jerusalem is the eternal capital for a people that control


the Holy Land for less than 300 years in recorded history. In the


United Nations proposal, it is well accepted, the Arabs rejected and


invaded. -- Israel accepted. this not unsustainable, many people


see Palestine as a prison state. Whose fault is that? Isa with Hamas,


Fatah, murderous corrupt governments. The life expectancy in


the Gaza is better than in Glasgow. As for this great myth of this


terrible situation, I am not so sure. I do not doubt that it is not


a free society. He is talking about a mass killing its own people. I


would like to see what about the uranium used by the Israelis, F 16,


in 2008, we have seen it aggressive war against the Palestine people


but the most corrupted regime in the Middle East, the state of


Israel. Raymond, how would you help the people of Gaza? The people of


Gaza, the Palestinians have been suffering since 1948 through the


Arab world treating them badly, the Palestinian leadership. This is the


soft face of the Palestinian plight, always hanging on to justice and


democracy and using our own freedoms against us. When you


listen to the words this be to themselves, from 1947, the move to


a pet bird to find out how to kill Jews. Keeping them in the camps.


Arafat, we will make Jews so uncomfortable they won't want to


live with an Arab. Today, a bass who does not know what is going on.


You are not ready for the state, you are intent on destroying the


Jewish nation. The Jews came from today. You have created your own


Disneyland of disaster. somebody who is against ghettos,


why did you crate them? You created neurone ghetto. Sending suicide


bombers in. Raymond, let us listen. We will go to a panel in a minute.


You wouldn't be end to do your at if... I cannot do might at its


Saudi Arabia, but that is not enough to tell them children can't


get to hospitals, and take Israeli the sewage and put it into other


people's land. It is rarely is regularly take Palestinian


civilians into their own hospitals. One the second. All I have heard


you say it is Hamas killing homosexuals. We are not getting


anywhere here. I am going to come to the panel now. I was going to


say the voice of reason. Then I had a look. Peter Hitchens, is it time


for a free Palestine? What you mean by, free? Badenoch think the


Palestinian of body has a good record on freedom, it invented the


first technique for censoring TV broadcasts, of its own Parliament.


It has been extremely repressive, it has used torture. The Christian


minority are very badly treated. That is rubbish. It isn't rubbish.


I have spoken to Palestinian Arabs in Bethlehem and they have told me


this. As Christians they feel extremely badly treated by the


Palestinian of parity and abandoned. In many cases they were better


under Israeli rule. Looking for Arabs living under free conditions,


those in Israel are probably the most free in the Middle East. It


eluded -- it is ridiculous to claim for other side they have the


monopoly of morality because both sides have done terrible things.


The sensible thing is compromise. Half the problem arises because of


the desired by politicians outside to find an ideal solution. An Arab


Israeli acquaintance said to me the last time I was there in September,


as we drove into Ramallah, how I long for the good old days before


Peace! In the Times before the world started to try to reach a


final settlement of the Palestine Israel question, everyone lived a


lot better, on better terms. There are signs of this now because of


the absence of the tense for reform. If you go to reminder or Gaza, you


will find shopping malls. I had a good beef stroganoff in Gaza. There


are pleasant parks on the Gaza Strip with rich people. The United


Arab Emirates has done fantastic work building good housing, the


kind which should have been put up 40 years ago. I absolutely despair


of this. I had a really nice meal in Moscow and in Leningrad when


Brezhnev was at his worst. And? What of it? It is true that Arab


people were deprived of their land and homes. No matter what has


happened in the meantime, and I take what you say about both sides


being dreadful to each other, there have been terrible things done by


both sides and far too many lies have been wasted, too many families


have been broken up. It has to stop at some point. But it won't be any


words we speak here, it will be dependent on what is happening in


America and American politics. Barack Obama was the first American


President to speak out against the maintenance of the artificial state


of Israel, whether you have a one state solution eventually all two


state. I believe it is artificial. It doesn't have the boundaries that


could be agreed between people who Obama spoke out. And what happened?


He had to pull back. He had tipple back because the United Nations


needed his backing to make sure they took some sort of action -- he


had to pull back. Our country's diplomacy is very active. In the


European Union we spend enormous amounts, much of it given to


Palestinian causes in the area. Our interest in that part of the world


is considerable, although responsibility is enormous, because


our declaration began the whole thing. As a country we have a very


great responsibility. I am just saying, if it means we have an


important role. As a writer and expert in such matters, who has


most to fear from the Arab spring? Israel or Hamas? It depends on what


happens in the end, we don't know what will happen. Let's hear his


answer. Can we hear his answer? Palestine does not have depleted


uranium, helicopters... ALL TALK AT ONCE. The Palestinian people who


have been... I will have to go to the panel again. Excuse me, please,


one second. He barely got a sentence out, let him answer.


too early to know what will happen with the so-called Arab spring. In


places like Egypt, it is very clear that the Muslim Brotherhood is very


likely, not, perhaps, in the first election, but by the second... They


have tried to get into power for a long time, if they come into power


they are linked to the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood.


The Hamas Charter, the Hezbollah and other constitutions are quite


clear - no peace, no negotiations, no compromise. They would drive the


Jews out of Israel or Hamas particularly would kill all the


Jews. LAUGHTER. Mahmoud Abbas in the last couple of weeks has stated


quite clearly that in any future Palestinian state, he says, not for


the first time, there will be no Jews whatever, no Jew will be


allowed to set foot. That is why the whole idea of the one state


solution becomes quite chilling, because in effect they will do what


the Nazis tried to do, make the whole of Palestine to free. -- Jew-


free. We are not anti-Jewish such. Are your people are ready to do a


reverse holocaust on the Jews? Is he telling the truth? ALL TALK AT


ONCE. All eyes see his women and children being thrown out of their


houses while Jewish people move in and go, I have got another house!


APPLAUSE. I need to know. The one line and look up the Hamas Charter.


-- go online and look up the Hamas Charter. Is this not true?!


Hamas Charter is dedicated to the... Let me ask the question before you


give an answer, call me old fashioned. As Palestinian people we


are Jewish, we are Muslims, we are Christians. We have Palestinian


Jewish living in Nablus as we speak. A have their religion freely, their


power stations. What about the destruction of Israel in the


charter? None whatsoever. ALL TALK AT ONCE. Hamas has agreed to be a


Palestinian dependent state in 1967 and will have a true start ALL TALK


AT ONCE. Let me ask Tadgh Hardy, an academic and a man of reason, how


do we handle this situation -- let me ask harsh Hardy. The idea that


one group of people can annihilate undo a reverse Holocaust is


absolutely out. What do you mean? The Jews have a right there but not


an exclusive right. The Old Testament is not a title deed to


Palestine. The Old Testament is not a title deed. APPLAUSE. They cannot


claim exclusive rights to the Holy Land. The Old Testament is not a


title deed to Palestine, but we are talking about 5000 years, which of


Abraham's sons is entitled to the land? Religion is the problem, it


is all your fault. It always is! Many of these conversations come


about because people perceive the world through what they believe to


be true, we need to help people and pack that. Continuing the meal


theme of my colleagues, I was serving meals in a Church of


Scotland hotel in Tiberius in 1983 when the accord was announced, and


there was a huge sense of talk -- hope because this was an


opportunity to actually talk rather than shout or take this bit of


history against that bit of history, or to throw religion as weapons. We


have lost sight of that. My own view about your original question,


do they need to be two separate states, it is probably yes. Not


because we want to decide -- define which those states are, but as a


family, because the Jews and Palestinians who live there are


related because they both come from that area, that family needs a bit


of space so it can come back together again and talk as we


nearly did... Ultimately, where should we be heading? We need to


get will place where either you have a union, perhaps, I hesitate


to say, like we have in this country, States part of a bigger


union, or we come to the conclusion where they conclude together they


can live at one stage. At the present time, that is clearly not


possible. Raymond, why will that never be possible, equal rights,


living in one state? In 2000 and us that -- 2011, many would agree that


a state based on one ethnic identity is unsustainable and


unacceptable? I think there is a misunderstanding of what it means


to be the Jewish state, and the Bible is the document that owns it.


Israel is the place where the nationhood of the Jewish people was


born, as much as Scotland is the... Excuse me, may I finish. That is


incorrect! May I finish? For 2000 years we were persecuted as a race,


or the sudden we are now a religion. Excuse me. ALL TALK AT ONCE. Israel


is a legitimate state recognised by the United... It is not. It is an


occupation. A recognised by international law. It is an illegal


occupation. They keep going on, they throw words like occupation


and settlements, the core of the matter is that they wanted to


destroy the state of Israel from the very beginning. First they


tried to do it with weapons, now that is not working so they are


trying to do it politically. It is marvellous machinery. I have been


two meetings in Glasgow, I hear how you direct the Western a year what


to say and think. I was at a meeting, there was anti-Semitism


and Bath Street in Glasgow are talking about the evil doers.


use that phrase? -- who used to that phrase? They were all clapping.


ALL TALK AT ONCE. I was once called a nasty Protestant but it did not


have been here. That is not what we're talking about, we are talking


about an illegal occupation, not because somebody once said you were


a bad due. How would you guarantee the security? -- a bad Jew. Please


be quiet, how would you secured the security of Israel? Would you put


Israeli security first before the Palestinian? I am trying to put


both sides. Her is the victim here?! Who is the victim here?!


for it! ALL TALK AT ONCE. Security is your side of the


argument? ALL TALK AT ONCE.


Here is an old-fashioned concept, let's see what he has to save.


have been talking about the past, it has to be about the future, per


-- piece, and the security for both states. I believe in a 2 state


solution. The apartheid wall has pushed suicide bombings down for


92%. Well, well done for building and apartheid wall! Any 2 state


solution has to be secure for both sides. The 67 borders are


indefensible, something must be worked out. This is a diplomatic


ploy. They are not sitting down with the Israelis and working out


how to stop the violence and enter peas and resolution...


Palestinians have to accept what people refer to as illegal


settlements? Through here is concerned, I am sorry... Who here


is concerned, as we ought to be, about the conditioning of the


people? The real question is particularly the state of the


people who are now the descendants of those expelled from Israel at


its foundation in 1948. They have not in any way benefited from more


than 60 years of war and conflict. If 63 years. They have not


benefited, they are not intended to, they are being used as poster boys


by a constant campaign to do legitimises row. If we are really


concerned about the condition of the people, trying to leave... Be


quiet for a moment, I have heard your case and I am trying... Let's


hear him. I shall finish my sentence. I wish to finish my


sentence. If you are concerned about how men, women and children


can live in a civilised fashion alongside their neighbours, this


kind of slow agonising will get you absolutely nowhere and will lead


only two more bombs, more wars and terror. Do you really want that or


do you want a civilised compromise? If you were shouting earlier. The


guy back their washout in a few minutes ago and now he has the


microphone. -- the guy back there was shouting a few minutes ago.


was wondering what time my lips and my tongue would be free, I had my


hand up for minutes at a time. I went to Gaza and eyes or the


condition of the people with my own eyes. Honestly, it is not laughable,


it is sickening for people to say they throw words like occupation.


There are people there who are starving. The whole of Gaza is


turned into a charity case by Israel, and you call this justice?


There is something fundamentally skewed about the West when they


talk about Palestine. You ask about the rights of the oppressor and you


want the oppressed are to secure the oppressor's rights? It is


madness! It is complete madness. But Palestinians are being asked to


live in 8% of their historic land. Israel is a state which was created


by theft and murder, by theft and murder. APPLAUSE. And we need to


address the original role. What fault was it of the Palestinians


that Hitler murdered 6 million Jews? What fault was it of us?


is my job now to go to you and get a response. What sport is it of the


Palestinians? The leader of the Grand mufti... He said a state


created by theft and murder. correct. The Jews who went there


bought it from Arab landowners. tiny percentage of land. ALL TALK


AT ONCE. At that time, and Mark Twain wrote


about it, how desolate the land was, how desolate... You weren't there,


he was! Now, when the agricultural Jews came from Russia and went back


to their original homeland of the Jewish people, they brought the


technology of Western agriculture, they created a bread basket that


attracted Arabs from all around to come to that land and they


increased the number of Arabs living there. They were welcome to


begin with, but there was a faction started to Barbados what the Jews


there at all. Even when Israel went in and... Went in after the 66 war,


they opened up these camps, they tried to introduce fresh water and


electricity but the fundamentalists... We are out of


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