Episode 20 The Big Questions

Good morning, welcome to the last edition of The Big Questions in

this series. I'm Nicky Campbell. Next week, Ken Clarke's sentencing

paper will finally be published. It's unlikely to be warmly received

by all sides of this coalition government.

Our first Big Question: Are we too soft on criminals?

This father says his son could still be alive if his killer had

been imprisoned for previous crimes. And, a UN report shows a tripling

of abject poverty in Gaza since Israel imposed its blockade five

years ago this week, Our next Big Question: Is it time to free

Palestine? This Palestinian says conditions in

Gaza are now unbearable, and will only be alleviated under a freed

state. We're live from Hutchesons Grammar

School in Glasgow, with a lively Scottish audience.

And sitting on high we have: The Mail on Sunday columnist, Peter

Hitchens. Secretary to the Church and Society

Committee of the Church of Scotland, the Reverend Ewan Aitken.

Columnist and Independent Member of the Scottish Parliament for the

Lothians, Margo MacDonald. New guidelines on sentences for

assault announced this week were denounced by Tory backbenchers as

the work of "the liberal-minded judicial elite", who are

"completely out of touch with public opinion". What will they

make of Ken Clarke's plans to save money with more community service

orders, and fewer short term prison sentences? Are we too soft on

criminals? It is a debate happening all over the UK. Peter Hitchens, if

you were in charge, what should prisons before?

They should be to shock the people who are sent to them and frighten

the people thinking of committing crimes into not committing them.

People should encounter them much earlier in their criminal careers.

Now you can commit as many as 15 crimes and still not be sent to

prison. It is still harder to get into prison than University! People

have to try hard for criminals to be sent there. They are often

turned out very quickly, rehabilitation is a myth. The only

serious purpose of prison was punishment and that has been

abandoned. As a result, prison as an expense is not designed to deter

those sent there, or the people who think it might be worthwhile

committing crime, and 30 years ago would have thought they wouldn't do

that, now reckon the rest is worthwhile. Rehabilitation is a

myth? It is a rather totalitarian idea, to change somebody's

character. It is a Christian idea. It is not a change of character, we

are talking about people who have, for many reasons, been badly

brought up, they have seen the police and withdrawn from the

streets, misbehaved and nothing happens to them, they get Committee

service which has no effect. They commit further crimes And Nothing

continues to happen, their fines are not collected. They learn not

to take the criminal-justice system seriously. The first time you meet

the criminal justice system you should realise it is serious. With

hours, you can meet it 20 times and know it is not serious. Peter

misses the point. You can have an authoritarian father model of the

system which is where you can beat your system -- children into

submission. All the paternal model where the task is to make sure you

find the full potential of the individual. It is hard when people

do awful things. If the way we approach folk, particularly those

who do bad things, if we make them feel worse, we will never change

them. The fundamental task of the justice system must be to bring

about change. That his own -- that is the only way. You can certainly

changed people but not by changing their character. You can teach them

if they do certain things which they know to be wrong, they will be

punished. That is instilling fear in them. If there is anyone in this

room who has never been motivated not to do something I fear, or who

claims they haven't, they are lying. You were in prison for seven months,

sentenced to 15. Possession of speed. Your father was a prison

officer. You feel you were made an example of. If it had been harsher,

is there an argument you and others would have said, that is scary, I

do not want to go back? Scary for myself. But, that was 13 years ago.

It is not like we one per -- Willy Wonka prisons. They are afraid of

hurting people's civil rights. Computers. Food. Take away their

liberty and they have lost their family. And they have lost their

reputation. And they have probably lost the chance of the Korea they

wanted. Just by taking away their liberty, you are punishing them. I

am sorry they have given up thumbscrews! Don't be silly. This

isn't a matter of torture, but about undergoing an austere

punitive experience in a civilised prison system. Be sensible. I am

being sensible. I think he is being altogether too broad-brush in his

approach. Not everyone responds in the same way to a harsh regime.

Some people would, they might be frightened out of their lives.

Others would become more violent in response. I don't think there is

any evidence of that. When criminals fall out among themselves,

they instil fear in each other. People commit crime because they

decide to do it. They decide to rob their fellow creatures and to be

violent. 70% of the 16-25-year-old men in jail have some form of

dyslexia or reading issue and have struggled in the education system.

The choices they have and the capacity to make those choices

Barbara is limited. We have to understand if we are to sort out

the justice system, we have to start in those aged below three.

That is not an excuse to commit crime. Other figures, 80% of women

in prison have mental health problems. 50% have been abused. The

cost of reoffending for England and Wales, the reoffending rates are

horrific. You have to get in early and dealing with these things.

don't send sick women to prison. Will we ever have enough money to

deal with this? You're wet -- what is the way ahead? Before been Chief

Inspector of Prisons, I was in the SAS. I thought like Peter then.

Having seen the reality of prison over eight years, I began to

realise prison isn't just about deterrence or punishment, its main

purpose must be, because it is so expensive, is to prevent future

victims of crime. To kick the public's saved. What isn't

recognised his sentences are getting much longer, far more life

sentences. I don't have any difficulty with that, that includes

women. At the other end of the scale, we are extremely soft on

potential criminals, mixing -- and I would also a Grier the plight of

women in Scotland is a disgrace. There are petty offenders in jail

because no one else can think what to do with them, a terrible

situation. What about those short sentences? Are you talking about

community punishment orders? If you are going to have short sentences,

you need more prison officers, you need role models. Very well trained.

We do not have that. As a country, we cannot afford it. The cheaper

option, community punishments, are a bit weak. We can afford it if we

want to come and we just need to stop subsidising the nuclear bomb,

to stop spending money on those things. It is not just about waste

of money but waste of lives. would you make the community

punishment orders harsher? I have no difficulty, one of the problems

with prison is everything goes on behind closed doors, most people

have no idea. Including yourself, Peter. On the contrary, I have

visited many prisons in this country and elsewhere. I accept

that, but so have I. They are physically warehouses where people

are kept until we let them out. make it tougher at the same time?

At the moment they are unpleasant in the wrong way. They are largely

run by the inmates and not the authorities. The nor do they have

any purpose other than incarceration. The prisoner

Doherty's Fry and the prisons. What are you saying about community

punishment? It is not visible enough. Prison is totally invisible.

If you are going to switch to the cheaper option, they need to be

tougher and more visible. I have no problem with those doing community

punishments to be visible, if necessary, wearing a high-

visibility jacket so we all know who they are. The thing that has

changed me when I was in the military, was going through

humiliation. Humiliation? Shame prevented me after a while from

committing some of the offences I otherwise would have done. What you

think about that, spotting those? There is no point putting people in

prison if we are not addressing the reasons why people are offending in

the first place. What about visibility, Committee punishment?

Not if it doesn't make a difference to why people are committing

offences. If they have mental health issues. If they have lost

contact with social support to keep them out of prison. You are put in

them in a worse position. But they would be in contact with their

families, just with high-visibility jackets. Shame, Clyde said.

failed to address why they are committing crimes. People commit

crimes because they are selfish and think they can get away with it.

There is a huge industry which makes excuses for these people. It

is subsidised by the state. They are actually wrong, people commit

crime because they decide they can get away with it and they are

selfish. They will not be stopped by people making excuses for them.

They usually live a long way away from them. I asked this in

seriousness, Peter has said he has visited prisons in many countries,

does anybody have a good Template, a better way of treating people who

offend against society? We used to in this country before the prisons

were liberalised. I'm talking about now. Nobody has a good prison

I would not go for the American model, for instance. You speak

about harsh regimes, people talk about Bangkok, it is very

unpleasant. It is squalid. How far would you go? You need to look at

what we did until the Liberal Revolution in the 60s. People went

to prison, they did not have telephones, there were no drugs,

prison officers were in charge, they worked hard. The circumstances

of their live... Slopping out? against that, it is humiliating.

Prisons should be clean but austere, the food should be basic, there

should be a lot of work but no comfort. You should come back not

wanting to go back in. Not cruelty, but austerity. And education.

of the things we have not spoken about his why so many people are in

prison in Scotland, I can only speak for Scotland. One of the

reasons the prisons, especially the women's prisons, R full, is because

the drug laws do not work. If we fix the drug laws... Everybody has

to admit they are not working. About 95% of people are in prison

are through drugs. When I have a problem I go back to the beginning,

the beginning his heroine. When we saw buzz out we will clear the

prisons out. It is people who are awfully bad, need to be chained to

a sink and punched in the eye, according to you. We need to start

talking about first principles of what prisons are meant to do, they

are meant to be a deterrent and there must be sanctions if you are

considering a crime, they are mentally punishment would also

offer an opportunity for rehabilitation so it is not just a

conveyor belt. Drugs is a huge issue, particularly in Scotland,

there are no drug-free jails in Scotland. We don't do anywhere near

enough to get people, who lie in a captive environment would support

services, of drugs in prison -- who are in a captive environment with

the support services. One prison officer said to me there was a

massive issue for the passive smoking for prison officers of

cannabis. How are these drugs getting in? Far more needs to be

done. Maybe Clive can tell me about this, is it only two jails in

Scotland with drug-free wings? The rest of them don't? We don't screen

people going in, we don't have plexiglass, we don't check prison

officers - and there are many good ones but there are a couple of bad

eggs taking drugs in. Inside and outside prisons we do not enforce

the laws against drug possession. In England the majority of cases of

cannabis possession which the police bother with are dealt with

by a warning which involved no criminal record or proceedings.

Those are the ones the police bother with, many of them don't

bother. You would criminalise a lot of young people? If cannabis is an

illegal drug, if you break the law you criminalise yourself. You don't

criminalise a burglar by prosecuting him for burglary, you

criminalise a drug possessor... some point you stop knocking your

head against a brick wall when it is obvious to you you are alive and

knocking the wall down nor making your head feel better. -- you are

neither knocking the wall down nor making your head feel better. We

have had the same, I think, stupid drugs laws in this country for 30

years. It is worse now than it was since the drugs Forum in 1986, I

think it was. We need to look at which drugs will be criminalised,

because I would criminalise the ones which are being made very

quickly, we don't know what is in them and there is no quality

control, but I would decriminalise cannabis, I would have heroin

supplied through the medical... Yes! Cannabis was decriminalised

in 1971, there is no serious attempt to prosecute possession.

need to get back to prisons. I think it is important we talk about

victims. John, your son Damian, what happened to him? Listening to

what has been said today reminds me of many, many conversations we have

had with various companies of people, various parties, the same

as going into get a full vote on it. Everyone talks about what the

person who has committed the crime should be getting. Their civil

rights and civil liberties. It is an absolute damned disgrace when

the 8th 9th blow went into my son when he was lying in the ground,

his civil rights and civil liberties stop than -- when the 8th

knife blow. Yet we continually pander to the convicted persons in

jail. He had been in trouble before, it is important we say that.

person who did it? He was important -- in trouble before. What had he

done before? Two cases of disfigurement against him and two

possessions of knives. What sentence did he get? They had not

gone to court, that was over a year. In December 2006 he stabbed a man

in the neck and disfigured him, in Margie disfigured another man with

a bottle, 2007. In July 2007, he murdered my son. He was on other

charges still to come to court about time. I am listening here to

professional people talking about what prisoner should be getting.

They should be getting a harder time. They done what they don't...

APPLAUSE. I didn't encourage him to do it. We come from an area where

we thought we lived la safe, clean, quiet area without worrying about

these problems -- we thought we lived in a safe, clean, quiet area.

All of the MSPs seemed content that where they live, in the nice areas,

they are not facing the sharp end we are. My mam had a boyfriend who

tried to kill a woman before, then he tried to kill my mam, then he

finally murdered her and the police said she was an alcoholic, may be

problems happened, they did not even charge him, then he killed

another man. I understand a point of the victim. But I feel the

Prison Service needs a complete reform, it is not just about the

hardened criminals who kill people. The problem we have in the prisons

today, I know it is going back to an old subject, is the drugs. The

prisons are so full of dealing with drug addicts they are not dealing

with the hardened criminals. this man should not have been at

liberty? No. Irrespective, it happened, it is too late to do

anything about it now. People might look at it in the future, but the

main thing we should be looking at as a general public, including

professionals, is we should be trying to make sure that the

sentences are longer. If someone gets five years they do five years,

no early release. APPLAUSE. They should do five years if they

get five years? It is in all of our interest to protect the next victim.

It is a horrendous situation to be in. Sorry for cutting across, there

must be opportunity for the person who has broken the law to get

rehabilitation, that is in short supply from what you can hear from

the stage. Natalie? It is extremely important, but most people going

into prison are there for non- violent, non-sexual fish --

offences. We spoke to victims of non-violent offences about this,

they wanted something to address the issues, I have a stronger

community penalties or... By a strong enough community penalty for

somebody who has shown an inkling of violence is a risk. We are

talking about non-violent offenders. It is understandable for people who

are the danger to the public to stay in prison. It must be a public

sanction on public retribution, there must be a place for

individual rehabilitation. I am no fan of the United States... We know

that. But we need to take a leaf from them about community

sentencing. They do a great job. I was teaching in California or

Missouri, you have these were gangs cleaning up streets and parks and

so forth, they have a distinctive uniform -- work gangs. It is the

humiliation. It as an antidote to prevent people from committing more

crimes. If you had been wearing that distinctive uniform? You just

get a blue and white shirt and blue trousers, everybody wears that.

if it had been public, conspicuous and humiliating? If somebody is

therefore addiction or mental health issues and you have them

wearing a uniform of embarrassment, you could look at pushing them the

other way. Lots of people can't handle prison and take their own

lives. Why are we obsessed only about individual rights? We should

be concerned about public rights. This gentleman has lost his son.

That could have been better dealt with. If we take petty criminals

and drug addicts... That are a number of drug agencies and

rehabilitation centres in the country prepared to help people

with drug issues, it takes them away from the court. These people

in for the more serious crimes, like the guy who killed a

gentleman's son, he could have been dealt with and not been out to take

these things away from the public. I think some of the important

things that John has said, there were solutions that he had been

what he was talking about, things like ending the automatic early

release of prisoners, things, for example, like the presumption of

going to jail if you are caught carrying a knife. There are issues

about public safety, you are talking about areas where we know

there are crime hotspots. Let's get more police officers in, let's make

sure we are doing proactive justice policies about the collective

protection of society rather than the individual rights of people who

have broken that protection. John had some excellent points which are

worth coming back to. What you are saying is part and parcel of the

way that I would like to see things going. I have a very close

relationship with Strathclyde Police in Inverclyde, these

officers are out working their socks off, in danger, against

people taking drugs, people over drinking, things we have spoken

about so far. They get them to the court, I am not trying to make a

funny joke or anything, but prisoners go to the bar and before

the officers can sign their release sheets they are waving to them in

taxis going out of court. They have been let out on bail, told to come

back at another period of time. Some guys have had to go to the

court, we have been told this from people down there, they have been

summoned to the court to find out what charges they were facing on

that date, because they have so many behind them they did not know

which one they were going up for. We need to give it a chance to

work... The this is a UK-wide thing, because of financial pressures,

sentencing will now be proportionate to the level of the

crime. That is quite difficult to assess sometimes. If somebody shows

signs of violence, who knows how dangerous they might be in future?

It is entirely subjective, there is an assumption by you can do almost

a box-ticking purpose, wife is just not like that. But his and the

cheap and not very cheerful option what Peter is saying, making scary

and frightening? It doesn't work. What do you mean? It worked when we

had it... I think you have very rose-tinted views of what happened

in the 1950s. I think you do. need to look... ALL TALK AT ONCE.

We had raised the gangs in Glasgow in the 50s. -- razor gangs.

legacy for John has won the person who killed his son served his time

-- it is when the person who killed his son served his time is that he

left there in a situation of mind that he would not do a job -- would

not do that again. That would be when we had done our job as a

society to pay tribute to John's son. What would have changed his

life in prison? A very intensive work... Can we afford it? Can we

not afford it? There is never enough money but you have to make

choices on priorities. I am hearing, rightly so, our priority is to keep

the streets safer. Craig, you work with offenders in a Christian

charity. What about giving people focus and religion? It is less

about giving them religion, it is treating them in a fair and

balanced way. We work with people who come out of prison, they get

support, they are not humiliated and put in the luminous jackets and

stigmatised, we tried to help them become part of the community again

so that families do not feel stigmatised, they can work with

each other again and give something back to the community.

shouldn't people be stigmatised if they had ruined the lives of their

neighbours? We want them to change. Actually, it will change them, it

works. It won't. When do you want the punishment to stop? This lady

at the back, good morning. I work with a youth project in the

community and I think what I am hearing is the punishment is a

short-term fixed for -- a short- term fix. We need to mobilise the

community to take responsibility for the community, and perhaps look

at funding for the voluntary sector who can them kind of partnership

prisons and stuff and three some of the funding so that prisoners can

actually get some support long-term, and that would obviously have an

effect on offending in the future I would like to finish my.. About

15 months ago, we were fortunate to be invited to meet the lord

advocate and we explained our concerns about how things were

going in the Justice Department, the police working, the lack of

rehabilitation, the lack of opportunity to redress the

situation of somebody who had committed a crime. One of the most

important ones we asked about, when we received information, when the

child was complete, they said the person who killed my son got 15

years, that was the punishment part of his sentence, and he would not

be entitled to release until 2022. We thought that was fine. We asked

-- we were asked if we would like to join the victims' insurance

scheme, we signed up for that. The Scottish Prison organisation wrote

back to us. But it said, we must advise you, under Prison Rule No.

15, in a best-case scenario, this man could be having home visits and

work placements four years before the end of his sentence. That was

bad enough. The punishment part was done by a judge, an elected person

to office. These people are in their taking those decisions and

they are not elected. Put other responsible to? From the letters

from the lord advocate Kayleigh -- clearly indicate they have concerns

themselves. Thank you for talking about this.

We pay tribute to Damian. If you have something to say about that

And follow the link to our message board.

We're also debating live this morning from Glasgow: Is it time to

free Palestine? Tell us what you think about those topics. Or send

us any general comments you'd like to make about the programme.

In September, the United Nations will vote on whether Palestine

should be recognised as an independent state within the

borders that existed before the 1967 Six Day War. With the peace

talks at an impasse, and conditions within Gaza fast deteriorating, the

UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestinian Refugees said this

week: "It is hard to understand the the logic of a man-made policy

which deliberately impoverishes so many, and condemns hundreds of

thousands of potentially productive people to a life of destitution."

Is it time to free Palestine? When that flow Taylor was

confronted by the Israeli forces, you were on that, Hasan Nowarah.

You are going away on their own age, very -- you are going away on an

aid convoy in two days. You are not going to stop and to use a

Palestine is truly free. What you mean? To sustain itself, where

there is no starvation, knows slickness, people can live the same

as the British can. What kind of state will it be? An independent

Palestinian state. Human rights? With her mass at the forefront,

many people worry about human rights. If you were to ask the

Palestine people, the world has witnessed the 1996 elections. They

have seen the Palestinians say in the elections, a huge majority has

voted for Hamas. They came in to serve the Palestinian situation.

There is democracy in Palestine. Immediately, the Americans and

Israeli occupation did not like this and imposed sanctions. What

kind of state should this be? free and democratic state for

everyone irrespective of Jew, Christian... One single state for

all inhabitants of Palestine, the Holy Land. Guaranteed human rights

for every individual. Has the so- called Arab Spring changed the

context? Yes, they have design themselves as the only democracy in

the Middle East, which is not true. It is a total myth. A one that

stage solution which you believe it should be headed towards, what is

now called Palestine, what is now Israel, should be one state? May be

we mean -- maybe we need an interim solution, to build up confidence.

To bring people together. The ultimate target is there should be

human rights for all, not on the basis of your religious or cultural

background. Sam Westrop, how do you respond to that? It is time to free

Palestine, Gaza and the west Bank from the grip of Hamas. I'm

surprised you call Hamas democratically elected. 51% of this

room it voted to murder the other 49%, that would not make it a

Democratic budget met democracy. Hamas froze its political -- throws

its political opponents from rooftops. You are calling for one

solution. I have many Jewish friends who are very much involved

in human rights. Hamas calls for the murder of these people. I ask

you, do you support Hamas? You talk about democracy. Let us take the

1947 vote which brought Israel into being, the Western Christian

nations voting. You talk about democracy. That wasn't a true

democracy. Let us go back to the 1947 resolution which said we would

have two states and an international zone for Jerusalem.

To you, Jerusalem is the eternal capital for a people that control

the Holy Land for less than 300 years in recorded history. In the

United Nations proposal, it is well accepted, the Arabs rejected and

invaded. -- Israel accepted. this not unsustainable, many people

see Palestine as a prison state. Whose fault is that? Isa with Hamas,

Fatah, murderous corrupt governments. The life expectancy in

the Gaza is better than in Glasgow. As for this great myth of this

terrible situation, I am not so sure. I do not doubt that it is not

a free society. He is talking about a mass killing its own people. I

would like to see what about the uranium used by the Israelis, F 16,

in 2008, we have seen it aggressive war against the Palestine people

but the most corrupted regime in the Middle East, the state of

Israel. Raymond, how would you help the people of Gaza? The people of

Gaza, the Palestinians have been suffering since 1948 through the

Arab world treating them badly, the Palestinian leadership. This is the

soft face of the Palestinian plight, always hanging on to justice and

democracy and using our own freedoms against us. When you

listen to the words this be to themselves, from 1947, the move to

a pet bird to find out how to kill Jews. Keeping them in the camps.

Arafat, we will make Jews so uncomfortable they won't want to

live with an Arab. Today, a bass who does not know what is going on.

You are not ready for the state, you are intent on destroying the

Jewish nation. The Jews came from today. You have created your own

Disneyland of disaster. somebody who is against ghettos,

why did you crate them? You created neurone ghetto. Sending suicide

bombers in. Raymond, let us listen. We will go to a panel in a minute.

You wouldn't be end to do your at if... I cannot do might at its

Saudi Arabia, but that is not enough to tell them children can't

get to hospitals, and take Israeli the sewage and put it into other

people's land. It is rarely is regularly take Palestinian

civilians into their own hospitals. One the second. All I have heard

you say it is Hamas killing homosexuals. We are not getting

anywhere here. I am going to come to the panel now. I was going to

say the voice of reason. Then I had a look. Peter Hitchens, is it time

for a free Palestine? What you mean by, free? Badenoch think the

Palestinian of body has a good record on freedom, it invented the

first technique for censoring TV broadcasts, of its own Parliament.

It has been extremely repressive, it has used torture. The Christian

minority are very badly treated. That is rubbish. It isn't rubbish.

I have spoken to Palestinian Arabs in Bethlehem and they have told me

this. As Christians they feel extremely badly treated by the

Palestinian of parity and abandoned. In many cases they were better

under Israeli rule. Looking for Arabs living under free conditions,

those in Israel are probably the most free in the Middle East. It

eluded -- it is ridiculous to claim for other side they have the

monopoly of morality because both sides have done terrible things.

The sensible thing is compromise. Half the problem arises because of

the desired by politicians outside to find an ideal solution. An Arab

Israeli acquaintance said to me the last time I was there in September,

as we drove into Ramallah, how I long for the good old days before

Peace! In the Times before the world started to try to reach a

final settlement of the Palestine Israel question, everyone lived a

lot better, on better terms. There are signs of this now because of

the absence of the tense for reform. If you go to reminder or Gaza, you

will find shopping malls. I had a good beef stroganoff in Gaza. There

are pleasant parks on the Gaza Strip with rich people. The United

Arab Emirates has done fantastic work building good housing, the

kind which should have been put up 40 years ago. I absolutely despair

of this. I had a really nice meal in Moscow and in Leningrad when

Brezhnev was at his worst. And? What of it? It is true that Arab

people were deprived of their land and homes. No matter what has

happened in the meantime, and I take what you say about both sides

being dreadful to each other, there have been terrible things done by

both sides and far too many lies have been wasted, too many families

have been broken up. It has to stop at some point. But it won't be any

words we speak here, it will be dependent on what is happening in

America and American politics. Barack Obama was the first American

President to speak out against the maintenance of the artificial state

of Israel, whether you have a one state solution eventually all two

state. I believe it is artificial. It doesn't have the boundaries that

could be agreed between people who Obama spoke out. And what happened?

He had to pull back. He had tipple back because the United Nations

needed his backing to make sure they took some sort of action -- he

had to pull back. Our country's diplomacy is very active. In the

European Union we spend enormous amounts, much of it given to

Palestinian causes in the area. Our interest in that part of the world

is considerable, although responsibility is enormous, because

our declaration began the whole thing. As a country we have a very

great responsibility. I am just saying, if it means we have an

important role. As a writer and expert in such matters, who has

most to fear from the Arab spring? Israel or Hamas? It depends on what

happens in the end, we don't know what will happen. Let's hear his

answer. Can we hear his answer? Palestine does not have depleted

uranium, helicopters... ALL TALK AT ONCE. The Palestinian people who

have been... I will have to go to the panel again. Excuse me, please,

one second. He barely got a sentence out, let him answer.

too early to know what will happen with the so-called Arab spring. In

places like Egypt, it is very clear that the Muslim Brotherhood is very

likely, not, perhaps, in the first election, but by the second... They

have tried to get into power for a long time, if they come into power

they are linked to the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood.

The Hamas Charter, the Hezbollah and other constitutions are quite

clear - no peace, no negotiations, no compromise. They would drive the

Jews out of Israel or Hamas particularly would kill all the

Jews. LAUGHTER. Mahmoud Abbas in the last couple of weeks has stated

quite clearly that in any future Palestinian state, he says, not for

the first time, there will be no Jews whatever, no Jew will be

allowed to set foot. That is why the whole idea of the one state

solution becomes quite chilling, because in effect they will do what

the Nazis tried to do, make the whole of Palestine to free. -- Jew-

free. We are not anti-Jewish such. Are your people are ready to do a

reverse holocaust on the Jews? Is he telling the truth? ALL TALK AT

ONCE. All eyes see his women and children being thrown out of their

houses while Jewish people move in and go, I have got another house!

APPLAUSE. I need to know. The one line and look up the Hamas Charter.

-- go online and look up the Hamas Charter. Is this not true?!

Hamas Charter is dedicated to the... Let me ask the question before you

give an answer, call me old fashioned. As Palestinian people we

are Jewish, we are Muslims, we are Christians. We have Palestinian

Jewish living in Nablus as we speak. A have their religion freely, their

power stations. What about the destruction of Israel in the

charter? None whatsoever. ALL TALK AT ONCE. Hamas has agreed to be a

Palestinian dependent state in 1967 and will have a true start ALL TALK

AT ONCE. Let me ask Tadgh Hardy, an academic and a man of reason, how

do we handle this situation -- let me ask harsh Hardy. The idea that

one group of people can annihilate undo a reverse Holocaust is

absolutely out. What do you mean? The Jews have a right there but not

an exclusive right. The Old Testament is not a title deed to

Palestine. The Old Testament is not a title deed. APPLAUSE. They cannot

claim exclusive rights to the Holy Land. The Old Testament is not a

title deed to Palestine, but we are talking about 5000 years, which of

Abraham's sons is entitled to the land? Religion is the problem, it

is all your fault. It always is! Many of these conversations come

about because people perceive the world through what they believe to

be true, we need to help people and pack that. Continuing the meal

theme of my colleagues, I was serving meals in a Church of

Scotland hotel in Tiberius in 1983 when the accord was announced, and

there was a huge sense of talk -- hope because this was an

opportunity to actually talk rather than shout or take this bit of

history against that bit of history, or to throw religion as weapons. We

have lost sight of that. My own view about your original question,

do they need to be two separate states, it is probably yes. Not

because we want to decide -- define which those states are, but as a

family, because the Jews and Palestinians who live there are

related because they both come from that area, that family needs a bit

of space so it can come back together again and talk as we

nearly did... Ultimately, where should we be heading? We need to

get will place where either you have a union, perhaps, I hesitate

to say, like we have in this country, States part of a bigger

union, or we come to the conclusion where they conclude together they

can live at one stage. At the present time, that is clearly not

possible. Raymond, why will that never be possible, equal rights,

living in one state? In 2000 and us that -- 2011, many would agree that

a state based on one ethnic identity is unsustainable and

unacceptable? I think there is a misunderstanding of what it means

to be the Jewish state, and the Bible is the document that owns it.

Israel is the place where the nationhood of the Jewish people was

born, as much as Scotland is the... Excuse me, may I finish. That is

incorrect! May I finish? For 2000 years we were persecuted as a race,

or the sudden we are now a religion. Excuse me. ALL TALK AT ONCE. Israel

is a legitimate state recognised by the United... It is not. It is an

occupation. A recognised by international law. It is an illegal

occupation. They keep going on, they throw words like occupation

and settlements, the core of the matter is that they wanted to

destroy the state of Israel from the very beginning. First they

tried to do it with weapons, now that is not working so they are

trying to do it politically. It is marvellous machinery. I have been

two meetings in Glasgow, I hear how you direct the Western a year what

to say and think. I was at a meeting, there was anti-Semitism

and Bath Street in Glasgow are talking about the evil doers.

use that phrase? -- who used to that phrase? They were all clapping.

ALL TALK AT ONCE. I was once called a nasty Protestant but it did not

have been here. That is not what we're talking about, we are talking

about an illegal occupation, not because somebody once said you were

a bad due. How would you guarantee the security? -- a bad Jew. Please

be quiet, how would you secured the security of Israel? Would you put

Israeli security first before the Palestinian? I am trying to put

both sides. Her is the victim here?! Who is the victim here?!

for it! ALL TALK AT ONCE. Security is your side of the

argument? ALL TALK AT ONCE.

Here is an old-fashioned concept, let's see what he has to save.

have been talking about the past, it has to be about the future, per

-- piece, and the security for both states. I believe in a 2 state

solution. The apartheid wall has pushed suicide bombings down for

92%. Well, well done for building and apartheid wall! Any 2 state

solution has to be secure for both sides. The 67 borders are

indefensible, something must be worked out. This is a diplomatic

ploy. They are not sitting down with the Israelis and working out

how to stop the violence and enter peas and resolution...

Palestinians have to accept what people refer to as illegal

settlements? Through here is concerned, I am sorry... Who here

is concerned, as we ought to be, about the conditioning of the

people? The real question is particularly the state of the

people who are now the descendants of those expelled from Israel at

its foundation in 1948. They have not in any way benefited from more

than 60 years of war and conflict. If 63 years. They have not

benefited, they are not intended to, they are being used as poster boys

by a constant campaign to do legitimises row. If we are really

concerned about the condition of the people, trying to leave... Be

quiet for a moment, I have heard your case and I am trying... Let's

hear him. I shall finish my sentence. I wish to finish my

sentence. If you are concerned about how men, women and children

can live in a civilised fashion alongside their neighbours, this

kind of slow agonising will get you absolutely nowhere and will lead

only two more bombs, more wars and terror. Do you really want that or

do you want a civilised compromise? If you were shouting earlier. The

guy back their washout in a few minutes ago and now he has the

microphone. -- the guy back there was shouting a few minutes ago.

was wondering what time my lips and my tongue would be free, I had my

hand up for minutes at a time. I went to Gaza and eyes or the

condition of the people with my own eyes. Honestly, it is not laughable,

it is sickening for people to say they throw words like occupation.

There are people there who are starving. The whole of Gaza is

turned into a charity case by Israel, and you call this justice?

There is something fundamentally skewed about the West when they

talk about Palestine. You ask about the rights of the oppressor and you

want the oppressed are to secure the oppressor's rights? It is

madness! It is complete madness. But Palestinians are being asked to

live in 8% of their historic land. Israel is a state which was created

by theft and murder, by theft and murder. APPLAUSE. And we need to

address the original role. What fault was it of the Palestinians

that Hitler murdered 6 million Jews? What fault was it of us?

is my job now to go to you and get a response. What sport is it of the

Palestinians? The leader of the Grand mufti... He said a state

created by theft and murder. correct. The Jews who went there

bought it from Arab landowners. tiny percentage of land. ALL TALK

AT ONCE. At that time, and Mark Twain wrote

about it, how desolate the land was, how desolate... You weren't there,

he was! Now, when the agricultural Jews came from Russia and went back

to their original homeland of the Jewish people, they brought the

technology of Western agriculture, they created a bread basket that

attracted Arabs from all around to come to that land and they

increased the number of Arabs living there. They were welcome to

begin with, but there was a faction started to Barbados what the Jews

there at all. Even when Israel went in and... Went in after the 66 war,

they opened up these camps, they tried to introduce fresh water and

electricity but the fundamentalists... We are out of