Episode 1 The Big Questions


Episode 1

Similar Content

Browse content similar to Episode 1. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Good morning, welcome back to another series of The Big Questions,

:00:26.:00:32.

live from Warrington. I'm Nicky Campbell. Meryl Streep's portrayal

:00:32.:00:35.

of Mrs Thatcher opened to critical acclaim this week. But the

:00:35.:00:38.

performance of the iron lady herself always received more mixed

:00:38.:00:48.
:00:48.:00:49.

reviews, both saviour and destroyer. Our first Big Question: Did Mrs

:00:49.:00:51.

Thatcher change Britain for the better? Fighting it out from the

:00:51.:00:54.

red corner, we have Liverpool's former Militant tendency councillor,

:00:54.:00:57.

Derek Hatton. And for the true blues, the former Minister and MP,

:00:57.:00:59.

Edwina Currie. On Thursday, the Commission on Assisted Dying

:00:59.:01:02.

proposed that people who are expected to die within a year from

:01:02.:01:04.

an incurable condition should legally have medical help to end

:01:04.:01:07.

their lives. Our next Big Question: Should the terminally ill have the

:01:07.:01:17.

right to die? But disability campaigner Sir Bert Massie says it

:01:17.:01:19.

is tantamount to legal murder and would threaten vulnerable people.

:01:19.:01:22.

If some prophecies are to be believed, 2012 might turn out to be

:01:22.:01:27.

a very important year. No, we are not going to top the Olympic medal

:01:27.:01:30.

table, it is more probable than that. Some people believe the world

:01:30.:01:33.

will end on December 21st, or possibly, if we're very unlucky, on

:01:33.:01:43.
:01:43.:01:48.

May 27th. Our next Big Question: Has the time come to repent? Graham

:01:48.:01:51.

Hancock, whose book inspired the Hollywood blockbuster, 2012, is

:01:51.:02:01.
:02:01.:02:03.

here to tell us what to expect. When Cabinet papers about Mrs

:02:03.:02:06.

Thatcher's government's response to the Toxteth riots in Liverpool were

:02:06.:02:09.

released under the 30-year rule last week, it did not take long for

:02:09.:02:15.

the flames of those old arguments to reignite. Few political figures

:02:15.:02:20.

have aroused such passion - for and against - as Margaret Thatcher. Did

:02:20.:02:30.

Mrs Thatcher change Britain for the better? Absolutely. When she became

:02:30.:02:35.

Prime Minister, the country was on its knees. We had just had a winter

:02:35.:02:42.

of discontent and strikes all over the place. You could not count on

:02:42.:02:46.

anything. She set herself to do something about that. She knew she

:02:46.:02:50.

was going to have a big fight on her hands. She knew she was going

:02:50.:02:55.

to face up to Arthur Scargill and union leaders like that. She knew

:02:55.:03:00.

she could not lose. The future of the country, the future of the

:03:00.:03:05.

economy, depended on her and her resolution. Was her as a moral

:03:05.:03:12.

mission? Yes, I think it was. For me it was about freeing up the

:03:12.:03:17.

economy and giving it an opportunity to flourish. Elaine

:03:17.:03:22.

Jones is desperate to come men. only way you could Uggi that she

:03:22.:03:28.

make the country better for Britain is if you ignore the facts. She set

:03:28.:03:35.

out to destroy the trade unions. She privatise 42 different

:03:35.:03:39.

companies and de regulated everything. She made millions of

:03:39.:03:45.

pounds worth of cuts. She destroyed manufacturing industry. It was

:03:45.:03:49.

about whole areas of the country being allowed to rot with high

:03:49.:03:55.

levels of unemployment. Unemployment levels up to 3.5

:03:55.:04:00.

million. Not only do we get unemployment levels up to 3.5

:04:00.:04:04.

million, the Tories used their friends and the press to try to

:04:04.:04:10.

blame unemployed people for being unemployed in the first place. Hang

:04:10.:04:18.

on a minute! Can we get a response? I was there at the time. I was in

:04:18.:04:23.

the Government at the time. There is no denying there were some costs.

:04:23.:04:28.

If we continued as we were, with huge government subsidies to

:04:29.:04:33.

clapped out old industries, coming from the tax payer, the country was

:04:33.:04:39.

on its knees. They could not continue like that. You say there

:04:39.:04:47.

were costs. Was that a price worth paying? Whatever you do in

:04:47.:04:53.

economics... A lot of people worse rent on the scrapheap. I can only

:04:53.:04:58.

say what coalminers have said. They say, we are digging debt down there.

:04:58.:05:08.

We know which has to come to an end. -- digging debt down now. When she

:05:08.:05:14.

walked into Number 10, she said, where there is despair, I will

:05:15.:05:20.

bring hope. Reality is, where there was hope, she brought despair. It

:05:20.:05:27.

is ironic that we are sitting in Warrington. There were millions and

:05:27.:05:31.

millions of coal mines, steelworkers, people working in the

:05:31.:05:37.

areas who felt hope for the future. All of a sudden it was destroyed.

:05:37.:05:43.

People argued that Britain had to change. Life is like that.

:05:43.:05:47.

Evolution happens. It does not mean it had to change with the

:05:48.:05:54.

desperation she brought. People were destroyed as individuals. We

:05:54.:05:58.

should not talk about her as an individual. We may or may not like

:05:58.:06:04.

her as an individual. We're talking about Thatcherism and what she did

:06:04.:06:10.

in those days. She actually, in the last century, became the most

:06:10.:06:15.

successful peacetime Prime Minister that we know. The reason why she

:06:15.:06:24.

was what she set out to destroy it. You were a self-made millionaire.

:06:24.:06:30.

You sold your company for �40 million. I am a child of Thatcher.

:06:30.:06:36.

I am from this area. When you say, people had hope, they did not.

:06:36.:06:41.

People did not know what to hope for. When you say Thatcher

:06:42.:06:45.

destroyed the manufacturing industry, it was destroyed. What

:06:45.:06:49.

the previous government did was look at the past, look at our

:06:49.:06:54.

imperial ambitions and say, or we want that. What hope did she give

:06:54.:07:03.

to you? Do not underestimate yourself. You would have done it

:07:03.:07:13.
:07:13.:07:17.

anyway. How do you know that? will come back. Can I just finish?

:07:17.:07:22.

When I was growing up in this area, there was nothing. No one could

:07:22.:07:30.

help us. They know they used to be a huge factory which went in a

:07:30.:07:35.

couple of years. There was nothing for people of. This is before

:07:35.:07:42.

Thatcher came in. On the television, for the first time, when she

:07:42.:07:47.

denationalised industries, I was sitting there as a 16-year-old kip

:07:47.:07:54.

then, thinking, what does that mean? For us, people like us, we

:07:54.:08:00.

did not know these things existed. She was really enabling for you,

:08:00.:08:06.

what she? Buying your own homes, you can argue one way or the other.

:08:06.:08:12.

People had to be responsible and accountable. There are facts to

:08:12.:08:16.

consider. When they privatise all the utilities, look where we are

:08:16.:08:22.

with all the utility companies now. Sky-high bills. The privatisation

:08:22.:08:27.

and selling off of the council houses has meant the social housing

:08:27.:08:33.

stock has plummeted. It led to an increase in homelessness. We are in

:08:33.:08:37.

a situation where there is a housing crisis. The one thing I

:08:37.:08:42.

would say in response to what you said is what Thatcher did, she made

:08:42.:08:46.

the rich richer, she laid the ground for free-market economics

:08:46.:08:53.

that has led to where we are now. The Institute for economic affairs,

:08:54.:08:59.

did this change that she effected on Britain, maybe the world was

:08:59.:09:07.

changing anyway. Do they have to happen? It had to happen in one

:09:07.:09:13.

form or another. Manufacturing is now a much smaller proportion of

:09:13.:09:22.

employment and GDP in virtually every country. Let him finish.

:09:22.:09:26.

actually produce more manufacturing output today than we did 30 years

:09:27.:09:32.

ago. We do it more effectively and more productively. People are no

:09:32.:09:38.

longer stuck in heavy industry type jobs. Who would want to bring back

:09:38.:09:45.

all the miners underground? Who would want to go back to where we

:09:45.:09:49.

had exchange controls and you had to tell the treasure if you were

:09:49.:09:58.

going on holiday? I want to hear from the audience. For me, the main

:09:58.:10:03.

thing about Mrs Thatcher were she saved Britain from becoming part of

:10:03.:10:13.
:10:13.:10:14.

the sewed it -- Soviet Union. was touch and go. She said Britain

:10:14.:10:19.

from being ruled by extreme left- wing trade unionists who were

:10:19.:10:26.

responsible for destroying this great nation. Let's hear this.

:10:26.:10:32.

big trade unions at the time, led by people by Arthur Scargill and

:10:32.:10:39.

the dockers and so one, they had trained in the Soviet Union. Their

:10:39.:10:44.

objective was to destroy the country. I remember a coalminer

:10:44.:10:51.

same, why did you vote to stay at work during the strike? He said, we

:10:51.:10:55.

hold -- we heard all this about Thatcherism and we do not agree

:10:55.:11:03.

with it. Let me say something before you come in. You said she

:11:03.:11:08.

was not Christian. I think there were fundamental flaws in what

:11:08.:11:15.

Margaret Thatcher did. Moral flaws. We have argument extremes at the

:11:15.:11:19.

moment. Margaret Thatcher did some things that needed to be done to

:11:19.:11:23.

this country. On the other hand she created a culture of selfish

:11:23.:11:29.

individualism which we are reaping the harvest of today. There was a

:11:29.:11:35.

belief that she created the notion that greed is OK and she freed up

:11:35.:11:39.

the city in a way that actually removed all the regulations over

:11:39.:11:44.

the banking industry in the city and that has caused the financial

:11:44.:11:49.

crisis that we are living in today. Subsequent governments acquiesced

:11:49.:11:54.

to that. She created a new environment where that sort of

:11:54.:12:03.

greed... She changed human nature? She moved from a notion of society,

:12:03.:12:09.

community, belonging, mutual responsibility, to an ocean of the

:12:09.:12:16.

individual being paramount at all times - individualism rules. -- a

:12:16.:12:22.

notion. We are hankering back to the post-war era. I am not an

:12:23.:12:32.
:12:33.:12:34.

expert but I understand the City was very and regulated. We have to

:12:34.:12:40.

look at new Labour and what happened. Everyone was deregulated.

:12:40.:12:47.

It was like a really bad company that was on its knees. Any company

:12:47.:12:51.

that needs changing around, needs Barilli strong leader, I'm not

:12:51.:12:57.

saying the policies of Margaret Thatcher where river --

:12:57.:13:02.

revolutionary, I am not saying what she had was a thrust to say I am

:13:02.:13:09.

going to change theirs. She did not mind who she left behind in the

:13:09.:13:15.

process. She left people in inner cities on outer estates actually

:13:15.:13:20.

outside society, she did not care. There were no regional policies.

:13:20.:13:26.

She left areas like Merseyside and so on. Only people like Michael

:13:26.:13:36.
:13:36.:13:37.

Heseltine rescue the party. Hang on a minute! We had one of the best

:13:37.:13:42.

regional policies ever. You mentioned Michael Heseltine.

:13:43.:13:49.

houses were not built because she had trees. Most people in Liverpool

:13:49.:13:59.
:13:59.:14:03.

remember where it is. You wrecked it, Derek! Old warriors, old

:14:03.:14:12.

battles. Lady at the back. How are you? I am fine, thank you. That

:14:12.:14:16.

lady was saying she make the rich richer that she has also made the

:14:16.:14:22.

poor poorer as well. What has Edwina got to say about that?

:14:22.:14:28.

about the right to buy? Was that enabling for people? It is a good

:14:28.:14:33.

opportunity for people to buy their own houses. They did not build

:14:33.:14:38.

houses for people who needed social housing. People should take

:14:38.:14:41.

responsibility when Margaret Thatcher offered all this

:14:41.:14:47.

materialism, a lot of people jumped on the wagon and thought it was

:14:47.:14:51.

enabling. People are so materialistic. Did that appeal to

:14:51.:15:00.

She had to be a responsible Prime Minister and look after everybody

:15:00.:15:05.

in the country, not just those with money. You said earlier that she

:15:05.:15:10.

did some good and some bad. Derek was wriggling with anger when you

:15:10.:15:17.

said that. What did she do that was good? She sorted up major problems

:15:17.:15:20.

with the trade unions. The trade union movement had got out of

:15:20.:15:25.

control and was in many ways controlling major parts of the

:15:25.:15:31.

economy to its detriment. She released some energy around

:15:31.:15:36.

creative new capitalism, if you like. Barbara Castle tried to sort

:15:36.:15:43.

out the unions. The Labour Party had tried and failed. Labour in

:15:43.:15:46.

opposition was very weak in the Thatcher years and the churches

:15:46.:15:50.

ended up as the official opposition in many wares. Robert Runcie was

:15:51.:15:56.

very uncomfortable with a lot of what Thatcher did. Is he right?

:15:56.:16:00.

In response to the attacks on trade union movement. Let's think about

:16:00.:16:06.

what they were fighting for. The miners' union were saying people's

:16:06.:16:12.

jobs and the community should come before profit. In the trade union

:16:12.:16:18.

movement, if there was a dispute in the health service. People were

:16:18.:16:24.

less able to take industrial action. The trade union movement, if you

:16:24.:16:28.

look at social history, the role of the trade union movement is a

:16:28.:16:36.

civilising effect, in lifts people out of poverty. In 1944 1/2 there

:16:36.:16:42.

was 2000 strikes. As a result of that, we got the welfare state, the

:16:42.:16:47.

NHS, which lifted people out of poverty. The trade union movement

:16:47.:16:52.

is positive. One of the interesting things is the way in which the

:16:52.:16:55.

Labour Party has accepted the reforms to trade unions. Ed

:16:55.:17:00.

Miliband was released -- recently asked about three things he thought

:17:00.:17:04.

were Thatcher's legacy. One was council house sales, another was

:17:04.:17:09.

lower tax rates and the third was trade union reform. Without that

:17:09.:17:13.

reform, Britain would have been hobbled. That was a fundamental

:17:13.:17:17.

change I was talking about that Thatcher did. You're right. Tony

:17:17.:17:23.

Blair became as because Thatcher herself. Was Tony Blair son of

:17:23.:17:31.

Thatcher? I believe it was a near repairable change. -- irreparable

:17:31.:17:38.

change. If she was on such a moral mission, why was she such a great

:17:38.:17:43.

friend of General Pinochet? Why was she such a great supporter of the

:17:44.:17:50.

apartheid regime? Why did she night Ceausescu? She was an imperfect

:17:50.:17:55.

human being and a product of her own time. She grew up during the

:17:56.:18:00.

war. She was at university in the dying days of the Second World War.

:18:00.:18:05.

In many ways she never shook off the prejudices she grew up with.

:18:05.:18:09.

She never promoted any women to her cabinet, for example, which now

:18:09.:18:14.

seems bizarre. Janet Young was one. No women from the House of

:18:14.:18:21.

Commons... Not you, sadly! If you put her in that context, you can

:18:21.:18:25.

also see the tremendous courage she required to challenge the

:18:25.:18:30.

prejudices. What did she do for women? What she did for women was

:18:30.:18:35.

made us realise that first of all its brought women into the service

:18:35.:18:41.

industry, where it had never worked before. It got women back into the

:18:41.:18:46.

workforce with her idea of a service society. The very fact that

:18:46.:18:52.

a woman was leading Briton as the Prime Minister made many women and

:18:53.:19:01.

men sit up and think wow. This was a huge watershed moment. Audience?

:19:01.:19:05.

What Thatcher did was attacked the majority of working-class women.

:19:05.:19:12.

Rubbish! If you want role models for women to look up to, looked to

:19:12.:19:16.

the people who fought back, the Women against Pit closures, the

:19:16.:19:21.

women around organisations like women's fight back. They fought for

:19:21.:19:25.

their community. The first woman prime minister. Was that

:19:25.:19:29.

achievement? The first woman prime minister? Can you find it in your

:19:29.:19:34.

heart to say that? What Thatcher did for the vast majority of women

:19:34.:19:40.

was not progressive. Equality will be won... What did you think of

:19:40.:19:46.

her? My problem with Margaret Thatcher was that I thought she

:19:46.:19:53.

removed compassion from politics. After she had gone, the people that

:19:53.:19:59.

came after her then felt they could go to extremes. We are inheriting a

:19:59.:20:03.

legacy from Margaret Thatcher, but it is not positive for but the

:20:03.:20:08.

legacy we've inherited his, as somebody else said, we are all now

:20:08.:20:12.

thinking what is best for us as individuals? She made politics more

:20:12.:20:18.

ruthless. Yes. I don't think it was a particularly good thing to do.

:20:18.:20:24.

She also made the rich extremely rich. The rich got richer last year

:20:24.:20:30.

by �66 billion. Can I get a word in? She's very good! I was saying

:20:30.:20:35.

before we came in that I think with Margaret Thatcher, it will be

:20:35.:20:39.

history that will tell us how could she really was. What is your

:20:39.:20:44.

inkling? I think like Churchill, we will see her in hindsight that she

:20:44.:20:49.

was a very strong... Flawed, that has been brought out come up with

:20:49.:20:55.

problems... Churchill was also gloriously flawed. Bishop Stephen

:20:55.:21:00.

Breyer against what you said. The notion that Churchill, who

:21:00.:21:04.

saved us in many ways and inspired and led a whole nation...

:21:04.:21:09.

crossed the mind as? Through a World War, which by any stretch of

:21:09.:21:14.

the imagination is a different league from what Thatcher did, was

:21:14.:21:18.

somebody who most people, even on the left, respected for what he

:21:18.:21:21.

achieved during the war and he earned a state funeral. If Thatcher

:21:22.:21:26.

gets a state funeral, I will be extremely unhappy because in many

:21:26.:21:31.

ways she divided this nation and left people behind. The nation was

:21:31.:21:36.

already changing. People were beginning to become more individual,

:21:36.:21:42.

more interested in consumerism. Before Thatcher, suddenly we were

:21:42.:21:46.

beginning to buy television sets, telephones, washing machines. You

:21:46.:21:51.

may say that was not important, but it was important. It was changing

:21:51.:21:55.

anyway. You are underestimating yourself because you are trying to

:21:55.:22:00.

say you did what you did because of Thatcher. Why did you do what you

:22:00.:22:05.

did? You're in entrepreneur. You've got your own bike company. York --

:22:05.:22:12.

you are a son of Thatcher! We will leave it there. That was a nice

:22:12.:22:16.

plug! I'm sure a lot of you will have

:22:16.:22:19.

something to say about that debate, so just log on to

:22:19.:22:21.

bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions and follow the link to our message

:22:21.:22:23.

board. We're also debating live this morning from Warrington.

:22:23.:22:27.

Should the terminally ill have the right to die? And has the time come

:22:27.:22:31.

to repent? Tell us what you think about those topics or send us your

:22:31.:22:34.

ideas for future debates or any general comments you'd like to make

:22:34.:22:41.

"The current legal status of assisted dying is inadequate and

:22:41.:22:44.

incoherent", so said the Report of the Commission on Assisted Dying

:22:44.:22:50.

this week. They have set out a possible legal framework that would

:22:50.:22:53.

allow some categories of the terminally ill to end their lives

:22:53.:22:56.

with medical assistance adults, of sound mind, with less than a year

:22:56.:23:03.

to live. Critics say it would undermine everyone's right to live

:23:03.:23:06.

until a natural death, however trying, expensive or inconvenient

:23:06.:23:15.

that might be for others. Should the terminally ill have the right

:23:15.:23:25.
:23:25.:23:26.

to die? Win Crew, I'm pleased to see you here. Tell us about Reg. He

:23:26.:23:30.

was one of the first people, your husband, to go to the Swiss clinic

:23:30.:23:36.

Dignitas. He was. Why did he make that decision? He had motor neurone

:23:36.:23:42.

disease. If anyone knows about it, it is one of the most debilitating

:23:42.:23:52.
:23:52.:23:52.

diseases you can have. The muscles just disintegrate. Reg used to go

:23:52.:23:57.

to a married Curie Hospice once a week. They are marvellous. Yes,

:23:57.:24:04.

very good. A Dr there sent for my daughter and I it after he had been

:24:04.:24:09.

going for a few weeks. She said I have to tell you that Reg is asking

:24:09.:24:14.

for the needle all the time. He keeps saying I want the needle. She

:24:15.:24:21.

said we can't do that here. To put it in a nutshell, he had suffered

:24:21.:24:26.

with this for nearly four years and he had had enough. He couldn't

:24:26.:24:30.

stand it any more. He wasn't in a lot of pain, but it was the

:24:30.:24:35.

indignity. He could not do the most basic things for himself, could not

:24:35.:24:42.

feed himself, go to the toilet, anything. You did all that? Yes. I

:24:42.:24:51.

was actually trying to lift a 15 stone man, I was in my 70s. He

:24:51.:24:57.

decided that he had to do something about it. First of all he had my

:24:57.:25:01.

daughter ringing to get through to Holland. That was to see if he

:25:01.:25:05.

could go there and they said no, you have to live here for six

:25:05.:25:10.

months, which wasn't an option. Then this programme came on the

:25:10.:25:16.

television and it was a French lady who had terminal cancer. She was

:25:16.:25:21.

going to this place in Switzerland called Dignitas to help her to die.

:25:21.:25:25.

He shouted to me and said look at this. He said if they won't help me

:25:26.:25:32.

here, this is where I'm going. I said don't be silly. But he had

:25:32.:25:36.

made his mind up. I had a phone he could use without picking it up

:25:36.:25:43.

because he could not use his hands. He rang Switzerland himself. They

:25:43.:25:47.

said they would send out the details to him. I know people think

:25:47.:25:51.

you just go, but you don't, there's more to it than that. You have to

:25:51.:25:55.

get a letter from your doctor and your medical records and various

:25:55.:26:00.

other things. And you have to be able to say, when you arrive, this

:26:00.:26:07.

is what I want. I'm ashamed to say this... My daughter and I, when the

:26:07.:26:13.

letter came from Switzerland, we put it in a draw and we did not

:26:13.:26:19.

tell him. As time went on, he started to lose the muscles in his

:26:19.:26:27.

neck, which then meant the only thing he could do... His mind was

:26:27.:26:31.

working perfectly and he could speak, but if the neck muscles went,

:26:31.:26:35.

he would not be able to speak. We knew if he went to Switzerland he

:26:35.:26:39.

would have to say this is what I want. Once the muscles in the neck

:26:39.:26:42.

had gone, he could not do that and that option would not be open.

:26:43.:26:48.

wanted to go as soon as possible. Yes. We had to give him a note and

:26:48.:26:53.

everything. When he read it, there were three different dates to go.

:26:53.:26:59.

He picked the earliest date. Did he have a passport? His passport had

:26:59.:27:05.

run out because when we renewed the passports, he said, don't bother

:27:05.:27:10.

renewing mind I would be going anywhere. We had to rush into

:27:10.:27:15.

Liverpool, we had about three days to do it. We paid extra to get the

:27:15.:27:19.

passport done that day. We had to have someone to the House to take

:27:19.:27:26.

the photographs. Had this perked him up and given him optimism? He

:27:26.:27:36.
:27:36.:27:37.

knew there was light at the end of the tunnel? Yes. You went there.

:27:37.:27:42.

actually used the phone and he told the local paper what he was going

:27:42.:27:49.

to do. Of course, my daughter and I, because we knew what we were doing

:27:49.:27:52.

what kind of against the law, we were going to go quietly in the

:27:52.:27:58.

middle of the night. He was passionate about this issue. Can I

:27:58.:28:04.

ask you, when eventually you did go there, what was the moment of

:28:04.:28:12.

passing like for you? I couldn't imagine a better death, if you can

:28:12.:28:18.

put it that way. Really? Reg had a living will in place, when he knew

:28:18.:28:24.

he had motor neurone, he knew what the outcome would be. He had a

:28:24.:28:27.

living will in place to say he did not want to be fed artificially.

:28:27.:28:35.

His end would have been choking or starving to death. He knew that. He

:28:35.:28:40.

had made his mind up that he was going there. When he couldn't get

:28:40.:28:44.

help here, he was going to go to Switzerland. What was the moment

:28:44.:28:50.

like for you? I couldn't believe it was happening, actually. You always

:28:50.:28:53.

think these things happen to someone else, you don't think they

:28:53.:28:58.

will ever happen to you. It was unbelievable, really. But at the

:28:58.:29:05.

end of the day, it was what he wanted. The reason he told the

:29:05.:29:10.

press was because he wanted people to know that this is what could

:29:10.:29:15.

happen to you. He thought the law was wrong.

:29:15.:29:19.

Of APPLAUSE. Thank you so much for coming on and

:29:19.:29:25.

telling us this story. Sir Bert Massie, disability rights

:29:25.:29:30.

campaigner, ringing loud and clear in my mind is what she just said.

:29:30.:29:40.
:29:40.:29:43.

That is what he wanted. Isn't that No, it is not. It affects other

:29:43.:29:49.

people. You have certain rules in society. One is that we don't kill

:29:49.:29:54.

each other. If we are going to cross the line, we need to be very

:29:54.:29:59.

careful and then need to be safeguards in place. We had Lord

:29:59.:30:07.

fogginess bail and now we have had the new commission's report. What

:30:07.:30:14.

you find missing are safeguards for disabled people. This is where it

:30:14.:30:22.

all hangs. It is about, where other safeguards? We know if you are

:30:22.:30:29.

disabled, if you go into hospital, you are likely to have a do Not

:30:29.:30:34.

resuscitate notice on your files. Doctors do not appreciate the lives

:30:34.:30:40.

of disabled people. This would entail a significant shift in

:30:40.:30:45.

values. It does more than that. We were discussing the outcome of

:30:45.:30:50.

Thatcherism. One thing Margaret Thatcher did was undermined social

:30:50.:30:56.

services provision for disabled people and Tony Blair continued it.

:30:56.:31:01.

It is now pretty appalling. If you are going to say that people should

:31:01.:31:05.

have the right to die, there is a great danger that the right to die

:31:05.:31:11.

becomes a duty to die. Disabled people often feel a burden. We feel

:31:11.:31:21.
:31:21.:31:23.

a burden, not because -- as the society we do not use our

:31:23.:31:29.

collective might to support them. That is why many disabled people

:31:29.:31:34.

say they have won the right to die. Many disabled people do not want it.

:31:34.:31:39.

I can look at this objectively. I can change my mind once these

:31:40.:31:45.

provisions are in place. We do not have proper hospital services. We

:31:45.:31:51.

do not have proper social care. What you are saying is, you do not

:31:51.:31:55.

want the choice. We're not saying everybody would want to do what my

:31:55.:32:01.

husband did. We should have the choice. If you have a terminal

:32:01.:32:05.

illness, you are dying anyway. You should have the choice. Of course

:32:05.:32:11.

we should. The only thing wrong with dying is doing it when you do

:32:11.:32:16.

not want to. Doing it when you do want to is not a problem. While

:32:16.:32:21.

people with disabilities are absolutely entitled to equal

:32:21.:32:25.

concern, respect and protection, they are not the only vulnerable

:32:25.:32:33.

people around. There is a neglected group of vulnerable people. They

:32:33.:32:41.

want to die and feel condemned to life. Who are these people? They

:32:41.:32:48.

are the people that this report deals with. Not just those people,

:32:48.:32:52.

they have terminal conditions but simply they do not want to go on

:32:52.:32:57.

living. It is not just the terminally ill. For whatever reason

:32:57.:33:02.

is cogent to them. We should not tyrannise over other people and

:33:02.:33:07.

pre-empt their values and their choices for their own destiny. Who

:33:07.:33:17.
:33:17.:33:18.

is anybody else to say...? What is sound about that case is the choice

:33:18.:33:23.

about going to be no Tace was motivated by fears about dignity

:33:23.:33:28.

and the method of dying - how he would spend the last days or hours

:33:28.:33:35.

of life. Also, a lack of adequate care at home. To support these

:33:35.:33:41.

exceptional cases we need to change the law. The question is, could we

:33:41.:33:47.

change the law safely? No we cannot. Safeguards are not robust enough.

:33:47.:33:52.

If we legislated for euthanasia and assisted suicide, we would

:33:52.:33:57.

essentially be normalising in society. The society we want is one

:33:57.:34:03.

where people receive compassionate care and dignity in care. Sam is on

:34:03.:34:09.

the commission. It is not euthanasia, it is voluntary

:34:09.:34:19.
:34:19.:34:23.

euthanasia. Sam changed his mind on this. Can I verify it one point?

:34:23.:34:27.

Euthanasia, it is being talked about changing the law. The whole

:34:28.:34:32.

thrust of the commission's report is not about euthanasia. We said

:34:32.:34:37.

that at the beginning when we sat down a year ago. It is about

:34:38.:34:43.

assisted suicide. It is already illegal. People have already said

:34:43.:34:51.

it is not going far enough. The safeguards are so we do. If you

:34:51.:34:58.

read the report, the safeguards are so not clear. You are talking about

:34:58.:35:03.

safeguards for disabled. We have the best safeguards in the report.

:35:03.:35:09.

We have said that being disabled does not make you eligible. You are

:35:09.:35:14.

an expert. This is an important point. You are an expert in

:35:14.:35:18.

palliative care. Have you given up on any potential advances in

:35:18.:35:28.
:35:28.:35:31.

palliative care? There is the postcode lottery. No, I have not.

:35:31.:35:35.

Many see changing your mind as a sign of weakness, I see it as

:35:35.:35:39.

responding to experience and responding to evidence. I have

:35:40.:35:44.

spent the last year with the Commission. We have received 12 and

:35:44.:35:52.

pieces of evidence. I spent a week in Oregon. I have been talking to

:35:52.:35:56.

the judge that brought in the law, talking to doctors and nurses that

:35:56.:36:04.

help patients achieve their own deaths. Patients actually have

:36:04.:36:08.

their prescription. Ice spent a lot of time in the Netherlands in the

:36:08.:36:18.
:36:18.:36:19.

last few years. The evidence says, if you look in the paper, one in

:36:19.:36:24.

six of those patients were significantly clinically depressed

:36:24.:36:30.

and they were not diagnosed. If they were making a choice, it is a

:36:30.:36:35.

choice you cannot go back on it. Once you are dead, you are dead.

:36:35.:36:41.

is a mistake to think this is about adequate palliative care. It is

:36:41.:36:48.

about respecting people's choices for themselves. You do not have to

:36:48.:36:55.

qualify by being Taman only El of being in excruciating agony. --

:36:55.:37:02.

terminally ill. Sam says the report takes account of people's needs. It

:37:02.:37:07.

does not. The report is pathetic on disability. What I want to know

:37:07.:37:11.

from those who support this policy is what can you do to give you the

:37:11.:37:18.

right to die which does not add to the burden and duty to die? It lets

:37:18.:37:24.

you support disabled people. The report says that doctors should

:37:24.:37:29.

choose. Why is your burden to die so much more important than those

:37:29.:37:37.

who think that life is important? Say that again. Nobody is putting

:37:37.:37:42.

on you a burden to die. People are putting on many of us, a burden to

:37:42.:37:48.

live when we do not want to. This is a street we have to walk

:37:48.:37:58.
:37:58.:37:59.

bedsides on. It is not just about disabilities. What about coercion?

:37:59.:38:05.

What about vulnerable people being caressed? It is a tough financial

:38:05.:38:13.

time. Some relatives may have financial benefit, they are not all

:38:13.:38:23.
:38:23.:38:23.

loving. I want to hear from the audience. You went to Oregon.

:38:23.:38:28.

years of assisted dying, the doctors and nurses who were helping

:38:29.:38:34.

patients say they do not see corrosion will start we have the

:38:34.:38:42.

medicines. Patients go away -- correction. We have the medicines.

:38:42.:38:47.

Patients go away with the medicine. If the patient is terminally ill,

:38:47.:38:51.

the whole report is narrowed down to those who are terminally ill

:38:52.:38:58.

with 12 months or less to live. Is the patient of sound mind? Is the

:38:58.:39:06.

patient's depressed? I spoke to the psychiatrist he did the research.

:39:06.:39:11.

We have learned from that. That is why I changed my position, on the

:39:11.:39:18.

basis of evidence and learning. Many years ago I was against

:39:18.:39:22.

euthanasia. I am against the deliberate killing of other people.

:39:22.:39:27.

I am very much in favour of allowing people to have that choice.

:39:27.:39:36.

They are going to die anyway. are unintended consequences. Life

:39:36.:39:41.

is very precious. You have it once. It is very difficult to make a

:39:41.:39:45.

decision. Some of them have highlighted under what conditions

:39:45.:39:49.

the mind makes the decision. Sometimes families are not able to

:39:49.:39:58.

do it. Sometimes medical science is day-in and day-out. Some miracle

:39:58.:40:04.

might come along and these people may be treated. People have come

:40:04.:40:12.

out of comas. When does it stop? If somebody is of sound mind and makes

:40:12.:40:18.

an autonomous decision... It is about safeguards. There are good

:40:18.:40:22.

safeguards that can be put in place, perhaps building on what the

:40:22.:40:28.

commission has said bus stop talking about the attitude of the

:40:28.:40:32.

family and the psychological attitude. Or is can be down and put

:40:32.:40:40.

before a tribunal. The problem at the moment is an insane lack of

:40:40.:40:44.

resources. There are inconsistencies. It is blanket. It

:40:44.:40:50.

does not take into account autonomy. We need safeguards. We have

:40:50.:40:55.

safeguards already. We need to support people who are very Barnaga

:40:55.:41:03.

off. Lack of resources should not be a reason to keep this blanket

:41:03.:41:07.

approach. That principle of double effect is the tracksuit at minister

:41:07.:41:13.

will lessen the pain and perhaps hastened death as well. -- the

:41:13.:41:22.

drugs you administer. It was such a moving account earlier on. Who

:41:22.:41:28.

could fail but have compassion for her? I find myself teetering on one

:41:28.:41:33.

side of the argument and then the other. This commission also had

:41:33.:41:42.

another member who produced a minority of report. He changed his

:41:42.:41:47.

mind. He raised a very important question which has not been touched

:41:47.:41:55.

on. Do we have the moral right to choose whether we live or die? Is

:41:55.:41:58.

that something that, from a religious point of view we say,

:41:58.:42:03.

actually belongs to something to do with God, to do with nature, rather

:42:03.:42:06.

than as having a moral right to choose about whether we live or

:42:06.:42:14.

die? Suicide in this country is illegal at this time. It is a very

:42:14.:42:19.

important moral point. We are talking about a religious

:42:19.:42:24.

perspective. Do we have the right to do this? You might be religious

:42:24.:42:30.

and have moral views. Do not impose your religion on the rest of us in

:42:30.:42:37.

this country. Your religious police should have nothing to do with this.

:42:37.:42:45.

-- beliefs. Now we have to talk about the end of the world before

:42:45.:42:50.

the end of the programme. That is how it is. Thank you so much for

:42:50.:42:59.

taking part. I am sorry we did not have more time to talk longer. If

:42:59.:43:01.

you have something to say about that debate. Log on to

:43:01.:43:04.

bbc.co.uk/the big questions and follow the link to our message

:43:04.:43:08.

board. Or send us your views about our last Big Question. Has the time

:43:08.:43:12.

come to repent? And if you would like to be in the audience at a

:43:12.:43:15.

future show you can e-mail. We are in Peckham on January 22nd,

:43:15.:43:23.

Edinburgh on 29th and in You used to see bearded men

:43:23.:43:26.

carrying placards saying, The End of the World is Nigh, Repent Now in

:43:26.:43:34.

every town centre of the land. Well their time may finally have come.

:43:34.:43:36.

According to the Mayan Mesoamerican Long Count calendar, December 21st

:43:37.:43:40.

2012 is the end date of a 5,125 year cycle and this may herald a

:43:40.:43:50.
:43:50.:43:52.

catastrophe or a transformation. And the Church of God pastor,

:43:52.:43:56.

Robert Weinland, says we have only got until May 27th before the final

:43:56.:44:00.

trumpet of the seventh seal of the book of revelation will sound. So,

:44:00.:44:10.
:44:10.:44:16.

The you believe the end is coming. What will happen? Yes, I believe

:44:16.:44:21.

the end is coming. What will happen is, according to the biblical

:44:21.:44:29.

record, Christ will descend from heaven with his angels. He is

:44:29.:44:34.

coming to take those who have accepted him... Will this literally

:44:34.:44:39.

happen? In will literally happen. There will be the sound of the

:44:39.:44:44.

trumpet. The voice of the Archangel. The appearance of Christ, literally,

:44:44.:44:50.

with his angels. He's coming to take those who believe in him from

:44:50.:44:55.

this earth. He will bring justice and righteousness for top will the

:44:55.:45:02.

Skypark? The skies will open. He will descend with his angels. He is

:45:02.:45:11.

coming to take those who have been saved by his grace. Wait a minute...

:45:11.:45:18.

You are not going to be laughing soon! Listen, this is all in the

:45:19.:45:27.

Bible, Book of Revelation has... Revelations, the Book of John.

:45:27.:45:31.

There's a 1,000 year period, what happens then? A period of a 1,000

:45:31.:45:38.

years. That begins at the coming of Christ. He comes to take those who

:45:38.:45:44.

have been saved by his grace. Thos who have not accepted Christ,

:45:44.:45:49.

because God gives everybody the provision to accept the Salvation

:45:49.:45:54.

he offers free of charge. He has offered salvation free of charge

:45:54.:46:00.

for those who accept him. It is not just seven Day Adventists. Everyone.

:46:00.:46:10.
:46:10.:46:12.

Not Muslims or Hindus? Atheists? Jews? No. In the Book of Johns,

:46:12.:46:17.

chapter 14, of first six, it says that a buyer and the way, the truth

:46:17.:46:22.

and the life. He only takes those who believe in him? What about

:46:22.:46:31.

children? No one comes on to the Father except through me. It is a

:46:31.:46:38.

radical statement. Nonsensical statement. A rubbish. What would

:46:38.:46:47.

you like to say? Let me finish. Salvation comes only through Christ.

:46:47.:46:54.

Salvation comes through him. OK. We have a vision, if that is the right

:46:54.:47:01.

word, of what will happen, and it is in the Bible. We are talking

:47:01.:47:04.

about fundamentalism and that produces problems in all major

:47:04.:47:10.

world religions and it produces problems in Christianity. You are

:47:10.:47:14.

cherry-picking. For this is a fundamentalist interpretation of

:47:14.:47:20.

scripture which misunderstands the very poetic piece of writing. It

:47:20.:47:25.

misunderstands ball's view that the kingdom was coming immediately, not

:47:25.:47:30.

in 2000 years. We now know there was a misunderstanding of Paul and

:47:30.:47:33.

the early Christians, they thought Christ was coming back again. We

:47:33.:47:38.

now work on an entirely different basis. It is in the New Testament.

:47:38.:47:43.

So what? There are things in the New Testament -- which -- New

:47:43.:47:48.

Testament which we have to reinterpret. This fundamentalist

:47:48.:47:57.

approach doesn't work. Is the Antichrist here? Not in the studio!

:47:57.:48:05.

Although I have my suspicions. On her. The Antichrist is here.

:48:05.:48:14.

earth? A yes. The Antichrist is a spirit. Satan's emissary.

:48:14.:48:20.

spirit of the devil. The Antichrist's view is that it works

:48:20.:48:29.

in different systems. Diana... Let other people speak. It is the

:48:29.:48:35.

spirit of the devil. Seven Day Adventists and grew up to something

:48:35.:48:38.

called a great disappointment, which was a prediction that Jesus

:48:38.:48:44.

would come. They were waiting in a field for Jesus to come, he did not

:48:44.:48:47.

come, and they decided the privacy was run. With respect, religious

:48:47.:48:51.

people have been wrong every time because the world hasn't ended yet.

:48:51.:48:55.

If you predict the world enough -- the end of the world enough times,

:48:55.:49:01.

eventually it will happen. I would ask you about what this means.

:49:01.:49:07.

you read the Bible, Christ tells you in the Book of Matthew 24, no

:49:07.:49:17.
:49:17.:49:17.

one knows the day or the hour. it could be any time. I want to

:49:17.:49:25.

jump in. A we may not have much time. I find it hilarious to

:49:25.:49:29.

describe the sky as opening because if it did, there is a solar system.

:49:29.:49:33.

We have seen the structure of the universe, there is not a heaven up

:49:33.:49:37.

there. I find it amazing to hear him say it is fundamentalism, we

:49:37.:49:42.

don't literally believe the Bible any more. That is bizarre, that is

:49:42.:49:46.

like saying I believe in an all- powerful God but there are some

:49:46.:49:52.

typos in the book he wrote. I have one more point, which goes to the

:49:52.:49:57.

question. Is it time to repent? I think repentance is one of the most

:49:57.:50:00.

dangerous ideas that religion has given the world. The idea that you

:50:00.:50:05.

can do things wrong and just say sorry. There are a lot of wrong

:50:05.:50:09.

things and the world, the way we pollute the environment, all sorts

:50:09.:50:13.

of dreadful things to the planet. Saying sorry is not good enough, we

:50:13.:50:18.

have to change the way we live and respect the planet and the science

:50:18.:50:22.

we know about. I have to let him come back on that. That is a

:50:22.:50:26.

caricature -- caricature of what I'm saying. I believe Jesus

:50:26.:50:31.

preached about the Kingdom of God. It was fundamental to his teaching.

:50:31.:50:36.

Do you believe in the six-day creation? I do not. There are bits

:50:36.:50:40.

of the Bible you think are lies? I would expand that to say the whole

:50:41.:50:46.

thing. There's a lot of poetry and allegory and parable in the Bible.

:50:46.:50:55.

Couldn't it be clearer? Time is running out. In many senses! Graham

:50:55.:51:01.

Hancock, author of The Fingerprint Of The Gods, do you feel the times

:51:01.:51:06.

are changing? It is important to Korea -- correct and the Sampras

:51:06.:51:12.

Cajun? And the Mayan calendar does not predict the end of the world on

:51:12.:51:15.

21st December. It is a cyclical calendar and it predicts the end of

:51:15.:51:22.

the cycle. It is interesting that that runs for 5126 years. That is

:51:22.:51:26.

the period of the big state, the powerful hierarchies, the

:51:26.:51:29.

centralised government. The period we have been living through.

:51:30.:51:34.

Everybody can see that that model is broken and it doesn't apply and

:51:34.:51:40.

it doesn't work. By coincidence or design... The dawning of a new age.

:51:40.:51:45.

We're coming to the end of an old age. A what are the signs? Total

:51:45.:51:50.

chaos we live in today. We have always lived in total chaos.

:51:50.:51:53.

breakdown of a model that has worked for so long, which is no

:51:53.:51:58.

longer serving us, no longer helping humanity. Have we not

:51:58.:52:04.

always lived in total chaos? Yes. It goes back to what we were

:52:04.:52:08.

talking about earlier, the economic collapse is not an act of God, it

:52:08.:52:12.

is a result of the economic system in which we live which leads to

:52:12.:52:16.

slump and unemployment and our answer to that, there are practical

:52:16.:52:22.

answers we can have to that economic crisis. It isn't about...

:52:23.:52:28.

Let's get back to this. You're a chauvinistic... A shame and a stick

:52:28.:52:33.

practitioner. What are the signs? The Bible is not the only book in

:52:33.:52:39.

the world. We are forgetting something fundamental. Everything

:52:39.:52:45.

is alive. In my lifetime, I've seen the destruction and the extinction

:52:45.:52:50.

of millions of species of animals and plants on this planet. I've

:52:50.:52:54.

seen the air and the water be contaminated and polluted to a

:52:54.:52:58.

tremendous extend. I've seen atomic bombs being blown up in the living

:52:58.:53:01.

body of our mother, this grandmother Earth, this planet we

:53:01.:53:08.

live on. These atrocities need to stop now. The Mayans are saying

:53:08.:53:14.

this. They are shouting from the mountains in Guatemala, wake up.

:53:14.:53:23.

This is a nightmare and we need to stop this now. They say one thing,

:53:23.:53:27.

we need unity, we are peoples of this planet, we are like the

:53:27.:53:31.

fingers on hand, we are different but the same and we are united in

:53:31.:53:36.

the hand. We need to listen to these people and on of the covenant

:53:36.:53:42.

our ancestors, our forefathers and for mothers gave us of a beautiful

:53:42.:53:49.

pristine planet. 99% of the species that ever existed are extinct.

:53:50.:53:58.

We may go that way some time soon. Definitely. We certainly are

:53:58.:54:01.

accelerating that possibility in myriad different ways. Whenever

:54:01.:54:05.

people talk about the end of the world, they are talking about the

:54:05.:54:09.

end of the human species. We are different, we have the power of

:54:09.:54:14.

choice. That makes us different. All species can make decisions.

:54:14.:54:18.

globally effective decisions. We should take responsibility for that

:54:18.:54:24.

choice. We are animals. I agree, this is what we should move to. We

:54:24.:54:28.

should move to the era of individual sovereignty for of we

:54:28.:54:35.

are back to Mrs Thatcher! Derek Hatton. I listen a lot of Brian Cox

:54:35.:54:39.

and it does appear that we have about 300 million years to go

:54:39.:54:44.

before we actually or go. Maybe it is a little bit premature to start

:54:44.:54:50.

preparing for now, but maybe not. The one thing the millenarian

:54:50.:54:54.

movements have got right is we know the world will end. We know the sun

:54:54.:55:02.

must die. But there is hope and the hope is us. We are capable of

:55:02.:55:07.

inventing ways of getting to other planets and colonising them and we

:55:07.:55:12.

had better start thinking about how to do that now. Science is our best

:55:12.:55:17.

hope for doing it. Fix this one first. That is a millenarian belief

:55:17.:55:21.

in itself, that we will go to other planets. Stephen Hawking was

:55:21.:55:25.

talking about this. We can solve the problems here and now, we are

:55:25.:55:29.

intelligent and capable and we can make choices. We need to make the

:55:29.:55:36.

right choices. That partly involved mending broken model. These ideas

:55:36.:55:40.

about how Kimmons will solve the problems. People are talking about

:55:40.:55:46.

assisted suicide when millions of people are starving. The idea I'm

:55:46.:55:51.

taking is that we will colonise us stars and planets when people are

:55:51.:55:55.

hungry on this planet. The idea that we can make choices and solve

:55:55.:56:01.

the problems of the world. Can I ask one question? If it is all

:56:01.:56:05.

going to be destroyed, is there any point trying to save it? There's no

:56:05.:56:14.

point saving it. Jesus will come down... If this is interesting.

:56:15.:56:19.

After cheeses will come down and destroy everything. According to

:56:19.:56:23.

biblical record, he will make all things... This is according to

:56:23.:56:30.

Harry Potter! I believe... Are we don't believe that. I believe

:56:30.:56:39.

there's a God. We can't create life. Thursday -- there's no point trying

:56:39.:56:46.

to save the animals? Only if you believe in him. He has made

:56:46.:56:50.

provision for everyone. Believe in me or die. What an appalling

:56:50.:56:55.

creature that is. There is evil in the world. That is a demon not have

:56:55.:57:01.

got. He needs to get rid of evil. The actions you are proposing for

:57:01.:57:05.

this creature are demonic. You are saying he will only take those who

:57:05.:57:11.

believe in him. Arrogant and so wrong. He gives you the choice.

:57:11.:57:14.

choice is believe in me or body, what kind of choices that?

:57:14.:57:23.

Monstrous. I made a provision for you. No. Nobody could believe in

:57:23.:57:31.

such a creature. Appalling. Bishop Stephen. I find myself miles apart

:57:31.:57:35.

from my brother Christian. I believe in a loving God, a Jesus

:57:35.:57:40.

Christ who came inclusively to welcome all people and draw in all

:57:40.:57:48.

people. The that is what he's saying. I believe in the same God

:57:48.:57:52.

as the Islamic God, the same God as the part of Hinduism and the major

:57:53.:57:57.

world religions. You think you'll burn. I don't believe in people

:57:57.:58:02.

burning. A millions of Muslims think you are condemned. They all

:58:02.:58:08.

believe in different gods and none of them is remotely credible.

:58:08.:58:16.

Another morning of Harmony(!) Give yourselves a round of applause.

:58:16.:58:19.

All the debates continue on our message board. We're here again

:58:19.:58:22.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS