Browse content similar to Episode 1. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Good morning, welcome back to another series of The Big Questions, | :00:26. | :00:32. | |
live from Warrington. I'm Nicky Campbell. Meryl Streep's portrayal | :00:32. | :00:35. | |
of Mrs Thatcher opened to critical acclaim this week. But the | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
performance of the iron lady herself always received more mixed | :00:38. | :00:48. | |
:00:48. | :00:49. | ||
reviews, both saviour and destroyer. Our first Big Question: Did Mrs | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
Thatcher change Britain for the better? Fighting it out from the | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
red corner, we have Liverpool's former Militant tendency councillor, | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
Derek Hatton. And for the true blues, the former Minister and MP, | :00:57. | :00:59. | |
Edwina Currie. On Thursday, the Commission on Assisted Dying | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
proposed that people who are expected to die within a year from | :01:02. | :01:04. | |
an incurable condition should legally have medical help to end | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
their lives. Our next Big Question: Should the terminally ill have the | :01:07. | :01:17. | |
right to die? But disability campaigner Sir Bert Massie says it | :01:17. | :01:19. | |
is tantamount to legal murder and would threaten vulnerable people. | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
If some prophecies are to be believed, 2012 might turn out to be | :01:22. | :01:27. | |
a very important year. No, we are not going to top the Olympic medal | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
table, it is more probable than that. Some people believe the world | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
will end on December 21st, or possibly, if we're very unlucky, on | :01:33. | :01:43. | |
:01:43. | :01:48. | ||
May 27th. Our next Big Question: Has the time come to repent? Graham | :01:48. | :01:51. | |
Hancock, whose book inspired the Hollywood blockbuster, 2012, is | :01:51. | :02:01. | |
:02:01. | :02:03. | ||
here to tell us what to expect. When Cabinet papers about Mrs | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
Thatcher's government's response to the Toxteth riots in Liverpool were | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
released under the 30-year rule last week, it did not take long for | :02:09. | :02:15. | |
the flames of those old arguments to reignite. Few political figures | :02:15. | :02:20. | |
have aroused such passion - for and against - as Margaret Thatcher. Did | :02:20. | :02:30. | |
Mrs Thatcher change Britain for the better? Absolutely. When she became | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
Prime Minister, the country was on its knees. We had just had a winter | :02:35. | :02:42. | |
of discontent and strikes all over the place. You could not count on | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
anything. She set herself to do something about that. She knew she | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
was going to have a big fight on her hands. She knew she was going | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
to face up to Arthur Scargill and union leaders like that. She knew | :02:55. | :03:00. | |
she could not lose. The future of the country, the future of the | :03:00. | :03:05. | |
economy, depended on her and her resolution. Was her as a moral | :03:05. | :03:12. | |
mission? Yes, I think it was. For me it was about freeing up the | :03:12. | :03:17. | |
economy and giving it an opportunity to flourish. Elaine | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
Jones is desperate to come men. only way you could Uggi that she | :03:22. | :03:28. | |
make the country better for Britain is if you ignore the facts. She set | :03:28. | :03:35. | |
out to destroy the trade unions. She privatise 42 different | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
companies and de regulated everything. She made millions of | :03:39. | :03:45. | |
pounds worth of cuts. She destroyed manufacturing industry. It was | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
about whole areas of the country being allowed to rot with high | :03:49. | :03:55. | |
levels of unemployment. Unemployment levels up to 3.5 | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
million. Not only do we get unemployment levels up to 3.5 | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
million, the Tories used their friends and the press to try to | :04:04. | :04:10. | |
blame unemployed people for being unemployed in the first place. Hang | :04:10. | :04:18. | |
on a minute! Can we get a response? I was there at the time. I was in | :04:18. | :04:23. | |
the Government at the time. There is no denying there were some costs. | :04:23. | :04:28. | |
If we continued as we were, with huge government subsidies to | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
clapped out old industries, coming from the tax payer, the country was | :04:33. | :04:39. | |
on its knees. They could not continue like that. You say there | :04:39. | :04:47. | |
were costs. Was that a price worth paying? Whatever you do in | :04:47. | :04:53. | |
economics... A lot of people worse rent on the scrapheap. I can only | :04:53. | :04:58. | |
say what coalminers have said. They say, we are digging debt down there. | :04:58. | :05:08. | |
We know which has to come to an end. -- digging debt down now. When she | :05:08. | :05:14. | |
walked into Number 10, she said, where there is despair, I will | :05:15. | :05:20. | |
bring hope. Reality is, where there was hope, she brought despair. It | :05:20. | :05:27. | |
is ironic that we are sitting in Warrington. There were millions and | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
millions of coal mines, steelworkers, people working in the | :05:31. | :05:37. | |
areas who felt hope for the future. All of a sudden it was destroyed. | :05:37. | :05:43. | |
People argued that Britain had to change. Life is like that. | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
Evolution happens. It does not mean it had to change with the | :05:48. | :05:54. | |
desperation she brought. People were destroyed as individuals. We | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
should not talk about her as an individual. We may or may not like | :05:58. | :06:04. | |
her as an individual. We're talking about Thatcherism and what she did | :06:04. | :06:10. | |
in those days. She actually, in the last century, became the most | :06:10. | :06:15. | |
successful peacetime Prime Minister that we know. The reason why she | :06:15. | :06:24. | |
was what she set out to destroy it. You were a self-made millionaire. | :06:24. | :06:30. | |
You sold your company for �40 million. I am a child of Thatcher. | :06:30. | :06:36. | |
I am from this area. When you say, people had hope, they did not. | :06:36. | :06:41. | |
People did not know what to hope for. When you say Thatcher | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
destroyed the manufacturing industry, it was destroyed. What | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
the previous government did was look at the past, look at our | :06:49. | :06:54. | |
imperial ambitions and say, or we want that. What hope did she give | :06:54. | :07:03. | |
to you? Do not underestimate yourself. You would have done it | :07:03. | :07:13. | |
:07:13. | :07:17. | ||
anyway. How do you know that? will come back. Can I just finish? | :07:17. | :07:22. | |
When I was growing up in this area, there was nothing. No one could | :07:22. | :07:30. | |
help us. They know they used to be a huge factory which went in a | :07:30. | :07:35. | |
couple of years. There was nothing for people of. This is before | :07:35. | :07:42. | |
Thatcher came in. On the television, for the first time, when she | :07:42. | :07:47. | |
denationalised industries, I was sitting there as a 16-year-old kip | :07:47. | :07:54. | |
then, thinking, what does that mean? For us, people like us, we | :07:54. | :08:00. | |
did not know these things existed. She was really enabling for you, | :08:00. | :08:06. | |
what she? Buying your own homes, you can argue one way or the other. | :08:06. | :08:12. | |
People had to be responsible and accountable. There are facts to | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
consider. When they privatise all the utilities, look where we are | :08:16. | :08:22. | |
with all the utility companies now. Sky-high bills. The privatisation | :08:22. | :08:27. | |
and selling off of the council houses has meant the social housing | :08:27. | :08:33. | |
stock has plummeted. It led to an increase in homelessness. We are in | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
a situation where there is a housing crisis. The one thing I | :08:37. | :08:42. | |
would say in response to what you said is what Thatcher did, she made | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
the rich richer, she laid the ground for free-market economics | :08:46. | :08:53. | |
that has led to where we are now. The Institute for economic affairs, | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
did this change that she effected on Britain, maybe the world was | :08:59. | :09:07. | |
changing anyway. Do they have to happen? It had to happen in one | :09:07. | :09:13. | |
form or another. Manufacturing is now a much smaller proportion of | :09:13. | :09:22. | |
employment and GDP in virtually every country. Let him finish. | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
actually produce more manufacturing output today than we did 30 years | :09:27. | :09:32. | |
ago. We do it more effectively and more productively. People are no | :09:32. | :09:38. | |
longer stuck in heavy industry type jobs. Who would want to bring back | :09:38. | :09:45. | |
all the miners underground? Who would want to go back to where we | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
had exchange controls and you had to tell the treasure if you were | :09:49. | :09:58. | |
going on holiday? I want to hear from the audience. For me, the main | :09:58. | :10:03. | |
thing about Mrs Thatcher were she saved Britain from becoming part of | :10:03. | :10:13. | |
:10:13. | :10:14. | ||
the sewed it -- Soviet Union. was touch and go. She said Britain | :10:14. | :10:19. | |
from being ruled by extreme left- wing trade unionists who were | :10:19. | :10:26. | |
responsible for destroying this great nation. Let's hear this. | :10:26. | :10:32. | |
big trade unions at the time, led by people by Arthur Scargill and | :10:32. | :10:39. | |
the dockers and so one, they had trained in the Soviet Union. Their | :10:39. | :10:44. | |
objective was to destroy the country. I remember a coalminer | :10:44. | :10:51. | |
same, why did you vote to stay at work during the strike? He said, we | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
hold -- we heard all this about Thatcherism and we do not agree | :10:55. | :11:03. | |
with it. Let me say something before you come in. You said she | :11:03. | :11:08. | |
was not Christian. I think there were fundamental flaws in what | :11:08. | :11:15. | |
Margaret Thatcher did. Moral flaws. We have argument extremes at the | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
moment. Margaret Thatcher did some things that needed to be done to | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
this country. On the other hand she created a culture of selfish | :11:23. | :11:29. | |
individualism which we are reaping the harvest of today. There was a | :11:29. | :11:35. | |
belief that she created the notion that greed is OK and she freed up | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
the city in a way that actually removed all the regulations over | :11:39. | :11:44. | |
the banking industry in the city and that has caused the financial | :11:44. | :11:49. | |
crisis that we are living in today. Subsequent governments acquiesced | :11:49. | :11:54. | |
to that. She created a new environment where that sort of | :11:54. | :12:03. | |
greed... She changed human nature? She moved from a notion of society, | :12:03. | :12:09. | |
community, belonging, mutual responsibility, to an ocean of the | :12:09. | :12:16. | |
individual being paramount at all times - individualism rules. -- a | :12:16. | :12:22. | |
notion. We are hankering back to the post-war era. I am not an | :12:23. | :12:32. | |
:12:33. | :12:34. | ||
expert but I understand the City was very and regulated. We have to | :12:34. | :12:40. | |
look at new Labour and what happened. Everyone was deregulated. | :12:40. | :12:47. | |
It was like a really bad company that was on its knees. Any company | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
that needs changing around, needs Barilli strong leader, I'm not | :12:51. | :12:57. | |
saying the policies of Margaret Thatcher where river -- | :12:57. | :13:02. | |
revolutionary, I am not saying what she had was a thrust to say I am | :13:02. | :13:09. | |
going to change theirs. She did not mind who she left behind in the | :13:09. | :13:15. | |
process. She left people in inner cities on outer estates actually | :13:15. | :13:20. | |
outside society, she did not care. There were no regional policies. | :13:20. | :13:26. | |
She left areas like Merseyside and so on. Only people like Michael | :13:26. | :13:36. | |
:13:36. | :13:37. | ||
Heseltine rescue the party. Hang on a minute! We had one of the best | :13:37. | :13:42. | |
regional policies ever. You mentioned Michael Heseltine. | :13:43. | :13:49. | |
houses were not built because she had trees. Most people in Liverpool | :13:49. | :13:59. | |
:13:59. | :14:03. | ||
remember where it is. You wrecked it, Derek! Old warriors, old | :14:03. | :14:12. | |
battles. Lady at the back. How are you? I am fine, thank you. That | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
lady was saying she make the rich richer that she has also made the | :14:16. | :14:22. | |
poor poorer as well. What has Edwina got to say about that? | :14:22. | :14:28. | |
about the right to buy? Was that enabling for people? It is a good | :14:28. | :14:33. | |
opportunity for people to buy their own houses. They did not build | :14:33. | :14:38. | |
houses for people who needed social housing. People should take | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
responsibility when Margaret Thatcher offered all this | :14:41. | :14:47. | |
materialism, a lot of people jumped on the wagon and thought it was | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
enabling. People are so materialistic. Did that appeal to | :14:51. | :15:00. | |
She had to be a responsible Prime Minister and look after everybody | :15:00. | :15:05. | |
in the country, not just those with money. You said earlier that she | :15:05. | :15:10. | |
did some good and some bad. Derek was wriggling with anger when you | :15:10. | :15:17. | |
said that. What did she do that was good? She sorted up major problems | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
with the trade unions. The trade union movement had got out of | :15:20. | :15:25. | |
control and was in many ways controlling major parts of the | :15:25. | :15:31. | |
economy to its detriment. She released some energy around | :15:31. | :15:36. | |
creative new capitalism, if you like. Barbara Castle tried to sort | :15:36. | :15:43. | |
out the unions. The Labour Party had tried and failed. Labour in | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
opposition was very weak in the Thatcher years and the churches | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
ended up as the official opposition in many wares. Robert Runcie was | :15:51. | :15:56. | |
very uncomfortable with a lot of what Thatcher did. Is he right? | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
In response to the attacks on trade union movement. Let's think about | :16:00. | :16:06. | |
what they were fighting for. The miners' union were saying people's | :16:06. | :16:12. | |
jobs and the community should come before profit. In the trade union | :16:12. | :16:18. | |
movement, if there was a dispute in the health service. People were | :16:18. | :16:24. | |
less able to take industrial action. The trade union movement, if you | :16:24. | :16:28. | |
look at social history, the role of the trade union movement is a | :16:28. | :16:36. | |
civilising effect, in lifts people out of poverty. In 1944 1/2 there | :16:36. | :16:42. | |
was 2000 strikes. As a result of that, we got the welfare state, the | :16:42. | :16:47. | |
NHS, which lifted people out of poverty. The trade union movement | :16:47. | :16:52. | |
is positive. One of the interesting things is the way in which the | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
Labour Party has accepted the reforms to trade unions. Ed | :16:55. | :17:00. | |
Miliband was released -- recently asked about three things he thought | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
were Thatcher's legacy. One was council house sales, another was | :17:04. | :17:09. | |
lower tax rates and the third was trade union reform. Without that | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
reform, Britain would have been hobbled. That was a fundamental | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
change I was talking about that Thatcher did. You're right. Tony | :17:17. | :17:23. | |
Blair became as because Thatcher herself. Was Tony Blair son of | :17:23. | :17:31. | |
Thatcher? I believe it was a near repairable change. -- irreparable | :17:31. | :17:38. | |
change. If she was on such a moral mission, why was she such a great | :17:38. | :17:43. | |
friend of General Pinochet? Why was she such a great supporter of the | :17:44. | :17:50. | |
apartheid regime? Why did she night Ceausescu? She was an imperfect | :17:50. | :17:55. | |
human being and a product of her own time. She grew up during the | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
war. She was at university in the dying days of the Second World War. | :18:00. | :18:05. | |
In many ways she never shook off the prejudices she grew up with. | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
She never promoted any women to her cabinet, for example, which now | :18:09. | :18:14. | |
seems bizarre. Janet Young was one. No women from the House of | :18:14. | :18:21. | |
Commons... Not you, sadly! If you put her in that context, you can | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
also see the tremendous courage she required to challenge the | :18:25. | :18:30. | |
prejudices. What did she do for women? What she did for women was | :18:30. | :18:35. | |
made us realise that first of all its brought women into the service | :18:35. | :18:41. | |
industry, where it had never worked before. It got women back into the | :18:41. | :18:46. | |
workforce with her idea of a service society. The very fact that | :18:46. | :18:52. | |
a woman was leading Briton as the Prime Minister made many women and | :18:53. | :19:01. | |
men sit up and think wow. This was a huge watershed moment. Audience? | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
What Thatcher did was attacked the majority of working-class women. | :19:05. | :19:12. | |
Rubbish! If you want role models for women to look up to, looked to | :19:12. | :19:16. | |
the people who fought back, the Women against Pit closures, the | :19:16. | :19:21. | |
women around organisations like women's fight back. They fought for | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
their community. The first woman prime minister. Was that | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
achievement? The first woman prime minister? Can you find it in your | :19:29. | :19:34. | |
heart to say that? What Thatcher did for the vast majority of women | :19:34. | :19:40. | |
was not progressive. Equality will be won... What did you think of | :19:40. | :19:46. | |
her? My problem with Margaret Thatcher was that I thought she | :19:46. | :19:53. | |
removed compassion from politics. After she had gone, the people that | :19:53. | :19:59. | |
came after her then felt they could go to extremes. We are inheriting a | :19:59. | :20:03. | |
legacy from Margaret Thatcher, but it is not positive for but the | :20:03. | :20:08. | |
legacy we've inherited his, as somebody else said, we are all now | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
thinking what is best for us as individuals? She made politics more | :20:12. | :20:18. | |
ruthless. Yes. I don't think it was a particularly good thing to do. | :20:18. | :20:24. | |
She also made the rich extremely rich. The rich got richer last year | :20:24. | :20:30. | |
by �66 billion. Can I get a word in? She's very good! I was saying | :20:30. | :20:35. | |
before we came in that I think with Margaret Thatcher, it will be | :20:35. | :20:39. | |
history that will tell us how could she really was. What is your | :20:39. | :20:44. | |
inkling? I think like Churchill, we will see her in hindsight that she | :20:44. | :20:49. | |
was a very strong... Flawed, that has been brought out come up with | :20:49. | :20:55. | |
problems... Churchill was also gloriously flawed. Bishop Stephen | :20:55. | :21:00. | |
Breyer against what you said. The notion that Churchill, who | :21:00. | :21:04. | |
saved us in many ways and inspired and led a whole nation... | :21:04. | :21:09. | |
crossed the mind as? Through a World War, which by any stretch of | :21:09. | :21:14. | |
the imagination is a different league from what Thatcher did, was | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
somebody who most people, even on the left, respected for what he | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
achieved during the war and he earned a state funeral. If Thatcher | :21:22. | :21:26. | |
gets a state funeral, I will be extremely unhappy because in many | :21:26. | :21:31. | |
ways she divided this nation and left people behind. The nation was | :21:31. | :21:36. | |
already changing. People were beginning to become more individual, | :21:36. | :21:42. | |
more interested in consumerism. Before Thatcher, suddenly we were | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
beginning to buy television sets, telephones, washing machines. You | :21:46. | :21:51. | |
may say that was not important, but it was important. It was changing | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
anyway. You are underestimating yourself because you are trying to | :21:55. | :22:00. | |
say you did what you did because of Thatcher. Why did you do what you | :22:00. | :22:05. | |
did? You're in entrepreneur. You've got your own bike company. York -- | :22:05. | :22:12. | |
you are a son of Thatcher! We will leave it there. That was a nice | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
plug! I'm sure a lot of you will have | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
something to say about that debate, so just log on to | :22:19. | :22:21. | |
bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions and follow the link to our message | :22:21. | :22:23. | |
board. We're also debating live this morning from Warrington. | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
Should the terminally ill have the right to die? And has the time come | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
to repent? Tell us what you think about those topics or send us your | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
ideas for future debates or any general comments you'd like to make | :22:34. | :22:41. | |
"The current legal status of assisted dying is inadequate and | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
incoherent", so said the Report of the Commission on Assisted Dying | :22:44. | :22:50. | |
this week. They have set out a possible legal framework that would | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
allow some categories of the terminally ill to end their lives | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
with medical assistance adults, of sound mind, with less than a year | :22:56. | :23:03. | |
to live. Critics say it would undermine everyone's right to live | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
until a natural death, however trying, expensive or inconvenient | :23:06. | :23:15. | |
that might be for others. Should the terminally ill have the right | :23:15. | :23:25. | |
:23:25. | :23:26. | ||
to die? Win Crew, I'm pleased to see you here. Tell us about Reg. He | :23:26. | :23:30. | |
was one of the first people, your husband, to go to the Swiss clinic | :23:30. | :23:36. | |
Dignitas. He was. Why did he make that decision? He had motor neurone | :23:36. | :23:42. | |
disease. If anyone knows about it, it is one of the most debilitating | :23:42. | :23:52. | |
:23:52. | :23:52. | ||
diseases you can have. The muscles just disintegrate. Reg used to go | :23:52. | :23:57. | |
to a married Curie Hospice once a week. They are marvellous. Yes, | :23:57. | :24:04. | |
very good. A Dr there sent for my daughter and I it after he had been | :24:04. | :24:09. | |
going for a few weeks. She said I have to tell you that Reg is asking | :24:09. | :24:14. | |
for the needle all the time. He keeps saying I want the needle. She | :24:15. | :24:21. | |
said we can't do that here. To put it in a nutshell, he had suffered | :24:21. | :24:26. | |
with this for nearly four years and he had had enough. He couldn't | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
stand it any more. He wasn't in a lot of pain, but it was the | :24:30. | :24:35. | |
indignity. He could not do the most basic things for himself, could not | :24:35. | :24:42. | |
feed himself, go to the toilet, anything. You did all that? Yes. I | :24:42. | :24:51. | |
was actually trying to lift a 15 stone man, I was in my 70s. He | :24:51. | :24:57. | |
decided that he had to do something about it. First of all he had my | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
daughter ringing to get through to Holland. That was to see if he | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
could go there and they said no, you have to live here for six | :25:05. | :25:10. | |
months, which wasn't an option. Then this programme came on the | :25:10. | :25:16. | |
television and it was a French lady who had terminal cancer. She was | :25:16. | :25:21. | |
going to this place in Switzerland called Dignitas to help her to die. | :25:21. | :25:25. | |
He shouted to me and said look at this. He said if they won't help me | :25:26. | :25:32. | |
here, this is where I'm going. I said don't be silly. But he had | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
made his mind up. I had a phone he could use without picking it up | :25:36. | :25:43. | |
because he could not use his hands. He rang Switzerland himself. They | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
said they would send out the details to him. I know people think | :25:47. | :25:51. | |
you just go, but you don't, there's more to it than that. You have to | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
get a letter from your doctor and your medical records and various | :25:55. | :26:00. | |
other things. And you have to be able to say, when you arrive, this | :26:00. | :26:07. | |
is what I want. I'm ashamed to say this... My daughter and I, when the | :26:07. | :26:13. | |
letter came from Switzerland, we put it in a draw and we did not | :26:13. | :26:19. | |
tell him. As time went on, he started to lose the muscles in his | :26:19. | :26:27. | |
neck, which then meant the only thing he could do... His mind was | :26:27. | :26:31. | |
working perfectly and he could speak, but if the neck muscles went, | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
he would not be able to speak. We knew if he went to Switzerland he | :26:35. | :26:39. | |
would have to say this is what I want. Once the muscles in the neck | :26:39. | :26:42. | |
had gone, he could not do that and that option would not be open. | :26:43. | :26:48. | |
wanted to go as soon as possible. Yes. We had to give him a note and | :26:48. | :26:53. | |
everything. When he read it, there were three different dates to go. | :26:53. | :26:59. | |
He picked the earliest date. Did he have a passport? His passport had | :26:59. | :27:05. | |
run out because when we renewed the passports, he said, don't bother | :27:05. | :27:10. | |
renewing mind I would be going anywhere. We had to rush into | :27:10. | :27:15. | |
Liverpool, we had about three days to do it. We paid extra to get the | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
passport done that day. We had to have someone to the House to take | :27:19. | :27:26. | |
the photographs. Had this perked him up and given him optimism? He | :27:26. | :27:36. | |
:27:36. | :27:37. | ||
knew there was light at the end of the tunnel? Yes. You went there. | :27:37. | :27:42. | |
actually used the phone and he told the local paper what he was going | :27:42. | :27:49. | |
to do. Of course, my daughter and I, because we knew what we were doing | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
what kind of against the law, we were going to go quietly in the | :27:52. | :27:58. | |
middle of the night. He was passionate about this issue. Can I | :27:58. | :28:04. | |
ask you, when eventually you did go there, what was the moment of | :28:04. | :28:12. | |
passing like for you? I couldn't imagine a better death, if you can | :28:12. | :28:18. | |
put it that way. Really? Reg had a living will in place, when he knew | :28:18. | :28:24. | |
he had motor neurone, he knew what the outcome would be. He had a | :28:24. | :28:27. | |
living will in place to say he did not want to be fed artificially. | :28:27. | :28:35. | |
His end would have been choking or starving to death. He knew that. He | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
had made his mind up that he was going there. When he couldn't get | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
help here, he was going to go to Switzerland. What was the moment | :28:44. | :28:50. | |
like for you? I couldn't believe it was happening, actually. You always | :28:50. | :28:53. | |
think these things happen to someone else, you don't think they | :28:53. | :28:58. | |
will ever happen to you. It was unbelievable, really. But at the | :28:58. | :29:05. | |
end of the day, it was what he wanted. The reason he told the | :29:05. | :29:10. | |
press was because he wanted people to know that this is what could | :29:10. | :29:15. | |
happen to you. He thought the law was wrong. | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
Of APPLAUSE. Thank you so much for coming on and | :29:19. | :29:25. | |
telling us this story. Sir Bert Massie, disability rights | :29:25. | :29:30. | |
campaigner, ringing loud and clear in my mind is what she just said. | :29:30. | :29:40. | |
:29:40. | :29:43. | ||
That is what he wanted. Isn't that No, it is not. It affects other | :29:43. | :29:49. | |
people. You have certain rules in society. One is that we don't kill | :29:49. | :29:54. | |
each other. If we are going to cross the line, we need to be very | :29:54. | :29:59. | |
careful and then need to be safeguards in place. We had Lord | :29:59. | :30:07. | |
fogginess bail and now we have had the new commission's report. What | :30:07. | :30:14. | |
you find missing are safeguards for disabled people. This is where it | :30:14. | :30:22. | |
all hangs. It is about, where other safeguards? We know if you are | :30:22. | :30:29. | |
disabled, if you go into hospital, you are likely to have a do Not | :30:29. | :30:34. | |
resuscitate notice on your files. Doctors do not appreciate the lives | :30:34. | :30:40. | |
of disabled people. This would entail a significant shift in | :30:40. | :30:45. | |
values. It does more than that. We were discussing the outcome of | :30:45. | :30:50. | |
Thatcherism. One thing Margaret Thatcher did was undermined social | :30:50. | :30:56. | |
services provision for disabled people and Tony Blair continued it. | :30:56. | :31:01. | |
It is now pretty appalling. If you are going to say that people should | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
have the right to die, there is a great danger that the right to die | :31:05. | :31:11. | |
becomes a duty to die. Disabled people often feel a burden. We feel | :31:11. | :31:21. | |
:31:21. | :31:23. | ||
a burden, not because -- as the society we do not use our | :31:23. | :31:29. | |
collective might to support them. That is why many disabled people | :31:29. | :31:34. | |
say they have won the right to die. Many disabled people do not want it. | :31:34. | :31:39. | |
I can look at this objectively. I can change my mind once these | :31:40. | :31:45. | |
provisions are in place. We do not have proper hospital services. We | :31:45. | :31:51. | |
do not have proper social care. What you are saying is, you do not | :31:51. | :31:55. | |
want the choice. We're not saying everybody would want to do what my | :31:55. | :32:01. | |
husband did. We should have the choice. If you have a terminal | :32:01. | :32:05. | |
illness, you are dying anyway. You should have the choice. Of course | :32:05. | :32:11. | |
we should. The only thing wrong with dying is doing it when you do | :32:11. | :32:16. | |
not want to. Doing it when you do want to is not a problem. While | :32:16. | :32:21. | |
people with disabilities are absolutely entitled to equal | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
concern, respect and protection, they are not the only vulnerable | :32:25. | :32:33. | |
people around. There is a neglected group of vulnerable people. They | :32:33. | :32:41. | |
want to die and feel condemned to life. Who are these people? They | :32:41. | :32:48. | |
are the people that this report deals with. Not just those people, | :32:48. | :32:52. | |
they have terminal conditions but simply they do not want to go on | :32:52. | :32:57. | |
living. It is not just the terminally ill. For whatever reason | :32:57. | :33:02. | |
is cogent to them. We should not tyrannise over other people and | :33:02. | :33:07. | |
pre-empt their values and their choices for their own destiny. Who | :33:07. | :33:17. | |
:33:17. | :33:18. | ||
is anybody else to say...? What is sound about that case is the choice | :33:18. | :33:23. | |
about going to be no Tace was motivated by fears about dignity | :33:23. | :33:28. | |
and the method of dying - how he would spend the last days or hours | :33:28. | :33:35. | |
of life. Also, a lack of adequate care at home. To support these | :33:35. | :33:41. | |
exceptional cases we need to change the law. The question is, could we | :33:41. | :33:47. | |
change the law safely? No we cannot. Safeguards are not robust enough. | :33:47. | :33:52. | |
If we legislated for euthanasia and assisted suicide, we would | :33:52. | :33:57. | |
essentially be normalising in society. The society we want is one | :33:57. | :34:03. | |
where people receive compassionate care and dignity in care. Sam is on | :34:03. | :34:09. | |
the commission. It is not euthanasia, it is voluntary | :34:09. | :34:19. | |
:34:19. | :34:23. | ||
euthanasia. Sam changed his mind on this. Can I verify it one point? | :34:23. | :34:27. | |
Euthanasia, it is being talked about changing the law. The whole | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
thrust of the commission's report is not about euthanasia. We said | :34:32. | :34:37. | |
that at the beginning when we sat down a year ago. It is about | :34:38. | :34:43. | |
assisted suicide. It is already illegal. People have already said | :34:43. | :34:51. | |
it is not going far enough. The safeguards are so we do. If you | :34:51. | :34:58. | |
read the report, the safeguards are so not clear. You are talking about | :34:58. | :35:03. | |
safeguards for disabled. We have the best safeguards in the report. | :35:03. | :35:09. | |
We have said that being disabled does not make you eligible. You are | :35:09. | :35:14. | |
an expert. This is an important point. You are an expert in | :35:14. | :35:18. | |
palliative care. Have you given up on any potential advances in | :35:18. | :35:28. | |
:35:28. | :35:31. | ||
palliative care? There is the postcode lottery. No, I have not. | :35:31. | :35:35. | |
Many see changing your mind as a sign of weakness, I see it as | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
responding to experience and responding to evidence. I have | :35:40. | :35:44. | |
spent the last year with the Commission. We have received 12 and | :35:44. | :35:52. | |
pieces of evidence. I spent a week in Oregon. I have been talking to | :35:52. | :35:56. | |
the judge that brought in the law, talking to doctors and nurses that | :35:56. | :36:04. | |
help patients achieve their own deaths. Patients actually have | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
their prescription. Ice spent a lot of time in the Netherlands in the | :36:08. | :36:18. | |
:36:18. | :36:19. | ||
last few years. The evidence says, if you look in the paper, one in | :36:19. | :36:24. | |
six of those patients were significantly clinically depressed | :36:24. | :36:30. | |
and they were not diagnosed. If they were making a choice, it is a | :36:30. | :36:35. | |
choice you cannot go back on it. Once you are dead, you are dead. | :36:35. | :36:41. | |
is a mistake to think this is about adequate palliative care. It is | :36:41. | :36:48. | |
about respecting people's choices for themselves. You do not have to | :36:48. | :36:55. | |
qualify by being Taman only El of being in excruciating agony. -- | :36:55. | :37:02. | |
terminally ill. Sam says the report takes account of people's needs. It | :37:02. | :37:07. | |
does not. The report is pathetic on disability. What I want to know | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
from those who support this policy is what can you do to give you the | :37:11. | :37:18. | |
right to die which does not add to the burden and duty to die? It lets | :37:18. | :37:24. | |
you support disabled people. The report says that doctors should | :37:24. | :37:29. | |
choose. Why is your burden to die so much more important than those | :37:29. | :37:37. | |
who think that life is important? Say that again. Nobody is putting | :37:37. | :37:42. | |
on you a burden to die. People are putting on many of us, a burden to | :37:42. | :37:48. | |
live when we do not want to. This is a street we have to walk | :37:48. | :37:58. | |
:37:58. | :37:59. | ||
bedsides on. It is not just about disabilities. What about coercion? | :37:59. | :38:05. | |
What about vulnerable people being caressed? It is a tough financial | :38:05. | :38:13. | |
time. Some relatives may have financial benefit, they are not all | :38:13. | :38:23. | |
:38:23. | :38:23. | ||
loving. I want to hear from the audience. You went to Oregon. | :38:23. | :38:28. | |
years of assisted dying, the doctors and nurses who were helping | :38:29. | :38:34. | |
patients say they do not see corrosion will start we have the | :38:34. | :38:42. | |
medicines. Patients go away -- correction. We have the medicines. | :38:42. | :38:47. | |
Patients go away with the medicine. If the patient is terminally ill, | :38:47. | :38:51. | |
the whole report is narrowed down to those who are terminally ill | :38:52. | :38:58. | |
with 12 months or less to live. Is the patient of sound mind? Is the | :38:58. | :39:06. | |
patient's depressed? I spoke to the psychiatrist he did the research. | :39:06. | :39:11. | |
We have learned from that. That is why I changed my position, on the | :39:11. | :39:18. | |
basis of evidence and learning. Many years ago I was against | :39:18. | :39:22. | |
euthanasia. I am against the deliberate killing of other people. | :39:22. | :39:27. | |
I am very much in favour of allowing people to have that choice. | :39:27. | :39:36. | |
They are going to die anyway. are unintended consequences. Life | :39:36. | :39:41. | |
is very precious. You have it once. It is very difficult to make a | :39:41. | :39:45. | |
decision. Some of them have highlighted under what conditions | :39:45. | :39:49. | |
the mind makes the decision. Sometimes families are not able to | :39:49. | :39:58. | |
do it. Sometimes medical science is day-in and day-out. Some miracle | :39:58. | :40:04. | |
might come along and these people may be treated. People have come | :40:04. | :40:12. | |
out of comas. When does it stop? If somebody is of sound mind and makes | :40:12. | :40:18. | |
an autonomous decision... It is about safeguards. There are good | :40:18. | :40:22. | |
safeguards that can be put in place, perhaps building on what the | :40:22. | :40:28. | |
commission has said bus stop talking about the attitude of the | :40:28. | :40:32. | |
family and the psychological attitude. Or is can be down and put | :40:32. | :40:40. | |
before a tribunal. The problem at the moment is an insane lack of | :40:40. | :40:44. | |
resources. There are inconsistencies. It is blanket. It | :40:44. | :40:50. | |
does not take into account autonomy. We need safeguards. We have | :40:50. | :40:55. | |
safeguards already. We need to support people who are very Barnaga | :40:55. | :41:03. | |
off. Lack of resources should not be a reason to keep this blanket | :41:03. | :41:07. | |
approach. That principle of double effect is the tracksuit at minister | :41:07. | :41:13. | |
will lessen the pain and perhaps hastened death as well. -- the | :41:13. | :41:22. | |
drugs you administer. It was such a moving account earlier on. Who | :41:22. | :41:28. | |
could fail but have compassion for her? I find myself teetering on one | :41:28. | :41:33. | |
side of the argument and then the other. This commission also had | :41:33. | :41:42. | |
another member who produced a minority of report. He changed his | :41:42. | :41:47. | |
mind. He raised a very important question which has not been touched | :41:47. | :41:55. | |
on. Do we have the moral right to choose whether we live or die? Is | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
that something that, from a religious point of view we say, | :41:58. | :42:03. | |
actually belongs to something to do with God, to do with nature, rather | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
than as having a moral right to choose about whether we live or | :42:06. | :42:14. | |
die? Suicide in this country is illegal at this time. It is a very | :42:14. | :42:19. | |
important moral point. We are talking about a religious | :42:19. | :42:24. | |
perspective. Do we have the right to do this? You might be religious | :42:24. | :42:30. | |
and have moral views. Do not impose your religion on the rest of us in | :42:30. | :42:37. | |
this country. Your religious police should have nothing to do with this. | :42:37. | :42:45. | |
-- beliefs. Now we have to talk about the end of the world before | :42:45. | :42:50. | |
the end of the programme. That is how it is. Thank you so much for | :42:50. | :42:59. | |
taking part. I am sorry we did not have more time to talk longer. If | :42:59. | :43:01. | |
you have something to say about that debate. Log on to | :43:01. | :43:04. | |
bbc.co.uk/the big questions and follow the link to our message | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
board. Or send us your views about our last Big Question. Has the time | :43:08. | :43:12. | |
come to repent? And if you would like to be in the audience at a | :43:12. | :43:15. | |
future show you can e-mail. We are in Peckham on January 22nd, | :43:15. | :43:23. | |
Edinburgh on 29th and in You used to see bearded men | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
carrying placards saying, The End of the World is Nigh, Repent Now in | :43:26. | :43:34. | |
every town centre of the land. Well their time may finally have come. | :43:34. | :43:36. | |
According to the Mayan Mesoamerican Long Count calendar, December 21st | :43:37. | :43:40. | |
2012 is the end date of a 5,125 year cycle and this may herald a | :43:40. | :43:50. | |
:43:50. | :43:52. | ||
catastrophe or a transformation. And the Church of God pastor, | :43:52. | :43:56. | |
Robert Weinland, says we have only got until May 27th before the final | :43:56. | :44:00. | |
trumpet of the seventh seal of the book of revelation will sound. So, | :44:00. | :44:10. | |
:44:10. | :44:16. | ||
The you believe the end is coming. What will happen? Yes, I believe | :44:16. | :44:21. | |
the end is coming. What will happen is, according to the biblical | :44:21. | :44:29. | |
record, Christ will descend from heaven with his angels. He is | :44:29. | :44:34. | |
coming to take those who have accepted him... Will this literally | :44:34. | :44:39. | |
happen? In will literally happen. There will be the sound of the | :44:39. | :44:44. | |
trumpet. The voice of the Archangel. The appearance of Christ, literally, | :44:44. | :44:50. | |
with his angels. He's coming to take those who believe in him from | :44:50. | :44:55. | |
this earth. He will bring justice and righteousness for top will the | :44:55. | :45:02. | |
Skypark? The skies will open. He will descend with his angels. He is | :45:02. | :45:11. | |
coming to take those who have been saved by his grace. Wait a minute... | :45:11. | :45:18. | |
You are not going to be laughing soon! Listen, this is all in the | :45:19. | :45:27. | |
Bible, Book of Revelation has... Revelations, the Book of John. | :45:27. | :45:31. | |
There's a 1,000 year period, what happens then? A period of a 1,000 | :45:31. | :45:38. | |
years. That begins at the coming of Christ. He comes to take those who | :45:38. | :45:44. | |
have been saved by his grace. Thos who have not accepted Christ, | :45:44. | :45:49. | |
because God gives everybody the provision to accept the Salvation | :45:49. | :45:54. | |
he offers free of charge. He has offered salvation free of charge | :45:54. | :46:00. | |
for those who accept him. It is not just seven Day Adventists. Everyone. | :46:00. | :46:10. | |
:46:10. | :46:12. | ||
Not Muslims or Hindus? Atheists? Jews? No. In the Book of Johns, | :46:12. | :46:17. | |
chapter 14, of first six, it says that a buyer and the way, the truth | :46:17. | :46:22. | |
and the life. He only takes those who believe in him? What about | :46:22. | :46:31. | |
children? No one comes on to the Father except through me. It is a | :46:31. | :46:38. | |
radical statement. Nonsensical statement. A rubbish. What would | :46:38. | :46:47. | |
you like to say? Let me finish. Salvation comes only through Christ. | :46:47. | :46:54. | |
Salvation comes through him. OK. We have a vision, if that is the right | :46:54. | :47:01. | |
word, of what will happen, and it is in the Bible. We are talking | :47:01. | :47:04. | |
about fundamentalism and that produces problems in all major | :47:04. | :47:10. | |
world religions and it produces problems in Christianity. You are | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
cherry-picking. For this is a fundamentalist interpretation of | :47:14. | :47:20. | |
scripture which misunderstands the very poetic piece of writing. It | :47:20. | :47:25. | |
misunderstands ball's view that the kingdom was coming immediately, not | :47:25. | :47:30. | |
in 2000 years. We now know there was a misunderstanding of Paul and | :47:30. | :47:33. | |
the early Christians, they thought Christ was coming back again. We | :47:33. | :47:38. | |
now work on an entirely different basis. It is in the New Testament. | :47:38. | :47:43. | |
So what? There are things in the New Testament -- which -- New | :47:43. | :47:48. | |
Testament which we have to reinterpret. This fundamentalist | :47:48. | :47:57. | |
approach doesn't work. Is the Antichrist here? Not in the studio! | :47:57. | :48:05. | |
Although I have my suspicions. On her. The Antichrist is here. | :48:05. | :48:14. | |
earth? A yes. The Antichrist is a spirit. Satan's emissary. | :48:14. | :48:20. | |
spirit of the devil. The Antichrist's view is that it works | :48:20. | :48:29. | |
in different systems. Diana... Let other people speak. It is the | :48:29. | :48:35. | |
spirit of the devil. Seven Day Adventists and grew up to something | :48:35. | :48:38. | |
called a great disappointment, which was a prediction that Jesus | :48:38. | :48:44. | |
would come. They were waiting in a field for Jesus to come, he did not | :48:44. | :48:47. | |
come, and they decided the privacy was run. With respect, religious | :48:47. | :48:51. | |
people have been wrong every time because the world hasn't ended yet. | :48:51. | :48:55. | |
If you predict the world enough -- the end of the world enough times, | :48:55. | :49:01. | |
eventually it will happen. I would ask you about what this means. | :49:01. | :49:07. | |
you read the Bible, Christ tells you in the Book of Matthew 24, no | :49:07. | :49:17. | |
:49:17. | :49:17. | ||
one knows the day or the hour. it could be any time. I want to | :49:17. | :49:25. | |
jump in. A we may not have much time. I find it hilarious to | :49:25. | :49:29. | |
describe the sky as opening because if it did, there is a solar system. | :49:29. | :49:33. | |
We have seen the structure of the universe, there is not a heaven up | :49:33. | :49:37. | |
there. I find it amazing to hear him say it is fundamentalism, we | :49:37. | :49:42. | |
don't literally believe the Bible any more. That is bizarre, that is | :49:42. | :49:46. | |
like saying I believe in an all- powerful God but there are some | :49:46. | :49:52. | |
typos in the book he wrote. I have one more point, which goes to the | :49:52. | :49:57. | |
question. Is it time to repent? I think repentance is one of the most | :49:57. | :50:00. | |
dangerous ideas that religion has given the world. The idea that you | :50:00. | :50:05. | |
can do things wrong and just say sorry. There are a lot of wrong | :50:05. | :50:09. | |
things and the world, the way we pollute the environment, all sorts | :50:09. | :50:13. | |
of dreadful things to the planet. Saying sorry is not good enough, we | :50:13. | :50:18. | |
have to change the way we live and respect the planet and the science | :50:18. | :50:22. | |
we know about. I have to let him come back on that. That is a | :50:22. | :50:26. | |
caricature -- caricature of what I'm saying. I believe Jesus | :50:26. | :50:31. | |
preached about the Kingdom of God. It was fundamental to his teaching. | :50:31. | :50:36. | |
Do you believe in the six-day creation? I do not. There are bits | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
of the Bible you think are lies? I would expand that to say the whole | :50:41. | :50:46. | |
thing. There's a lot of poetry and allegory and parable in the Bible. | :50:46. | :50:55. | |
Couldn't it be clearer? Time is running out. In many senses! Graham | :50:55. | :51:01. | |
Hancock, author of The Fingerprint Of The Gods, do you feel the times | :51:01. | :51:06. | |
are changing? It is important to Korea -- correct and the Sampras | :51:06. | :51:12. | |
Cajun? And the Mayan calendar does not predict the end of the world on | :51:12. | :51:15. | |
21st December. It is a cyclical calendar and it predicts the end of | :51:15. | :51:22. | |
the cycle. It is interesting that that runs for 5126 years. That is | :51:22. | :51:26. | |
the period of the big state, the powerful hierarchies, the | :51:26. | :51:29. | |
centralised government. The period we have been living through. | :51:30. | :51:34. | |
Everybody can see that that model is broken and it doesn't apply and | :51:34. | :51:40. | |
it doesn't work. By coincidence or design... The dawning of a new age. | :51:40. | :51:45. | |
We're coming to the end of an old age. A what are the signs? Total | :51:45. | :51:50. | |
chaos we live in today. We have always lived in total chaos. | :51:50. | :51:53. | |
breakdown of a model that has worked for so long, which is no | :51:53. | :51:58. | |
longer serving us, no longer helping humanity. Have we not | :51:58. | :52:04. | |
always lived in total chaos? Yes. It goes back to what we were | :52:04. | :52:08. | |
talking about earlier, the economic collapse is not an act of God, it | :52:08. | :52:12. | |
is a result of the economic system in which we live which leads to | :52:12. | :52:16. | |
slump and unemployment and our answer to that, there are practical | :52:16. | :52:22. | |
answers we can have to that economic crisis. It isn't about... | :52:23. | :52:28. | |
Let's get back to this. You're a chauvinistic... A shame and a stick | :52:28. | :52:33. | |
practitioner. What are the signs? The Bible is not the only book in | :52:33. | :52:39. | |
the world. We are forgetting something fundamental. Everything | :52:39. | :52:45. | |
is alive. In my lifetime, I've seen the destruction and the extinction | :52:45. | :52:50. | |
of millions of species of animals and plants on this planet. I've | :52:50. | :52:54. | |
seen the air and the water be contaminated and polluted to a | :52:54. | :52:58. | |
tremendous extend. I've seen atomic bombs being blown up in the living | :52:58. | :53:01. | |
body of our mother, this grandmother Earth, this planet we | :53:01. | :53:08. | |
live on. These atrocities need to stop now. The Mayans are saying | :53:08. | :53:14. | |
this. They are shouting from the mountains in Guatemala, wake up. | :53:14. | :53:23. | |
This is a nightmare and we need to stop this now. They say one thing, | :53:23. | :53:27. | |
we need unity, we are peoples of this planet, we are like the | :53:27. | :53:31. | |
fingers on hand, we are different but the same and we are united in | :53:31. | :53:36. | |
the hand. We need to listen to these people and on of the covenant | :53:36. | :53:42. | |
our ancestors, our forefathers and for mothers gave us of a beautiful | :53:42. | :53:49. | |
pristine planet. 99% of the species that ever existed are extinct. | :53:50. | :53:58. | |
We may go that way some time soon. Definitely. We certainly are | :53:58. | :54:01. | |
accelerating that possibility in myriad different ways. Whenever | :54:01. | :54:05. | |
people talk about the end of the world, they are talking about the | :54:05. | :54:09. | |
end of the human species. We are different, we have the power of | :54:09. | :54:14. | |
choice. That makes us different. All species can make decisions. | :54:14. | :54:18. | |
globally effective decisions. We should take responsibility for that | :54:18. | :54:24. | |
choice. We are animals. I agree, this is what we should move to. We | :54:24. | :54:28. | |
should move to the era of individual sovereignty for of we | :54:28. | :54:35. | |
are back to Mrs Thatcher! Derek Hatton. I listen a lot of Brian Cox | :54:35. | :54:39. | |
and it does appear that we have about 300 million years to go | :54:39. | :54:44. | |
before we actually or go. Maybe it is a little bit premature to start | :54:44. | :54:50. | |
preparing for now, but maybe not. The one thing the millenarian | :54:50. | :54:54. | |
movements have got right is we know the world will end. We know the sun | :54:54. | :55:02. | |
must die. But there is hope and the hope is us. We are capable of | :55:02. | :55:07. | |
inventing ways of getting to other planets and colonising them and we | :55:07. | :55:12. | |
had better start thinking about how to do that now. Science is our best | :55:12. | :55:17. | |
hope for doing it. Fix this one first. That is a millenarian belief | :55:17. | :55:21. | |
in itself, that we will go to other planets. Stephen Hawking was | :55:21. | :55:25. | |
talking about this. We can solve the problems here and now, we are | :55:25. | :55:29. | |
intelligent and capable and we can make choices. We need to make the | :55:29. | :55:36. | |
right choices. That partly involved mending broken model. These ideas | :55:36. | :55:40. | |
about how Kimmons will solve the problems. People are talking about | :55:40. | :55:46. | |
assisted suicide when millions of people are starving. The idea I'm | :55:46. | :55:51. | |
taking is that we will colonise us stars and planets when people are | :55:51. | :55:55. | |
hungry on this planet. The idea that we can make choices and solve | :55:55. | :56:01. | |
the problems of the world. Can I ask one question? If it is all | :56:01. | :56:05. | |
going to be destroyed, is there any point trying to save it? There's no | :56:05. | :56:14. | |
point saving it. Jesus will come down... If this is interesting. | :56:15. | :56:19. | |
After cheeses will come down and destroy everything. According to | :56:19. | :56:23. | |
biblical record, he will make all things... This is according to | :56:23. | :56:30. | |
Harry Potter! I believe... Are we don't believe that. I believe | :56:30. | :56:39. | |
there's a God. We can't create life. Thursday -- there's no point trying | :56:39. | :56:46. | |
to save the animals? Only if you believe in him. He has made | :56:46. | :56:50. | |
provision for everyone. Believe in me or die. What an appalling | :56:50. | :56:55. | |
creature that is. There is evil in the world. That is a demon not have | :56:55. | :57:01. | |
got. He needs to get rid of evil. The actions you are proposing for | :57:01. | :57:05. | |
this creature are demonic. You are saying he will only take those who | :57:05. | :57:11. | |
believe in him. Arrogant and so wrong. He gives you the choice. | :57:11. | :57:14. | |
choice is believe in me or body, what kind of choices that? | :57:14. | :57:23. | |
Monstrous. I made a provision for you. No. Nobody could believe in | :57:23. | :57:31. | |
such a creature. Appalling. Bishop Stephen. I find myself miles apart | :57:31. | :57:35. | |
from my brother Christian. I believe in a loving God, a Jesus | :57:35. | :57:40. | |
Christ who came inclusively to welcome all people and draw in all | :57:40. | :57:48. | |
people. The that is what he's saying. I believe in the same God | :57:48. | :57:52. | |
as the Islamic God, the same God as the part of Hinduism and the major | :57:53. | :57:57. | |
world religions. You think you'll burn. I don't believe in people | :57:57. | :58:02. | |
burning. A millions of Muslims think you are condemned. They all | :58:02. | :58:08. | |
believe in different gods and none of them is remotely credible. | :58:08. | :58:16. | |
Another morning of Harmony(!) Give yourselves a round of applause. | :58:16. | :58:19. | |
All the debates continue on our message board. We're here again | :58:19. | :58:22. |