Episode 20 The Big Questions

Questions, live from Pyramid in Warrington. I'm Nicky Campbell. On

Friday, the United Nations launched its biggest-ever appeal, seeking $5

billion to pay for humanitarian aid for Syria. The pictures of the

devastated city of Qusair, after its fall to government forces on

Wednesday, shocked the world. Hopes are fading fast for the proposed

Geneva peace conference. Our first Big Question... Is now the time to

arm the Syrian opposition? The Children's Commissioner for England,

Maggie Atkinson has issued an urgent call for schools to cover

pornography in sex and relationship classes. She is concerned children

can readily access sexual, sometimes violent and sadistic imagery and

that this may affect their attitudes to relationships and the opposite

sex. Our next Big Question... Should porn be on the school curriculum?

This week, for the first time ever in Britain, a rap artist is topping

the Christian & Gospel music charts. He is with us today - Guvna B -

which stands for God's Unique Vessel Now Assigned. Our last big

question... Welcome, everybody, to that both sides in the Syrian war

had been guilty of terrible atrocities. Britain and France

claimed to have evidence that chemical weapons have been used, and

refugees on rafts were turned away from Greece. It is estimated that

more than 10 million Syrians, 4 million of them children, will need

urgent help before the end of this year. Is now the time to arm the

Syrian opposition? It is such a copper situation, this, the Russians

are arming the government, Hezbollah are involved as well, we have is

rainy and involvement - should we not steer well clear of this?

think it depends on what outcome you want. If you want to simply see the

death toll mount and mount, if you want Syria to be a deserted country,

with most of its population in the surrounding region as refugees, and

if you want to see the increase of the atrocities and massacres that we

are seeing almost on a daily basis, then yes, I think you should steer

quite clearly out of this situation. But if we as a member of the

international community decide that the reason why the United Nations

came together was to save lives, to have the responsible are due to

protect innocent civilians, then we should start doing things

differently. In the past 24 months, we have been sitting back at most

and observing all using indirect methods to support. Unless we want

to change the stalemate and prevent more killing, and do what the

international community says, which is, time to remove Bashar al-Assad,

then I can see no other way than arming the rebels. But who are the

rebels? That is the thing. The accusation is that some of the

people who Syria would end up with would be the kind of people who, if

they were in this country, would be under 24-hour surveillance, and we

would be trying to chuck them out. Some very unpleasant people...

have got to keep things in proportion. We have not got any

statistics today to say that those extreme elements make up anything

more than singledigit percentages of the overall opposition. These

extreme figures have been in there pretty much out of our design,

because we, as an international community, from the beginning, did

not support any opposition, so we created this vacuum, we allowed

these rebels to go in. When you are so desperate, you do not question

the ideology of the hand which is helping you get out of the driving

water. You simply grab onto it and ask questions later, and these guys

have built up a big capacity in Syria. We have had decades now, and

more than �50 billion spent on three disastrous wars in the Islamic

world. I am interested to hear that you say we should do things

differently, and I think we should. We should keep out of wars and

conflicts which do not concern us. We should involve the UN, we should

have a strategy, which is what we have been distinctly lacking over

the last ten years. Once you embark on a process of arming people, which

even you say we do not know who they are, and by the way, the analogy

which appeals to me, these guys are the most capable, and I am talking

about the jihad is to units of the opposition, the most capable...

Giving weapons, particularly things like anti-aircraft weapons, to

people like that is rather like giving toys to little kids in the

playground, because sooner or later, these weapons will come back to bite

us. Once you embark on this kind of body, we are embarking on a path to

war. We are engaging in war. Let's not be unclear about the

implications of that. Ultimately, and this is the agenda of the

opposition, we will be drawn into something we do not understand and

we are not equipped to deal with. think you need to explore the point

more K fully. Those people you said were the most capable, they are not

the most capable because the EU or the United Nations made them so, it

is because they have their own sources and channels of funding

absolutely. They are not waiting for Mr Cameron to give their weapons.

When we sit back and allow Saudi Arabia to do that, or whoever else,

then we are creating this vacuum. A moderate opposition is in existence,

and it is expecting and calling for support, which we have failed to

provide. As a Syrian, it is insulting when people talk about the

risk of what happens if we give these weapons. These armed launches

that will bring down a tank or even a helicopter, they are not a risk to

the UK. What if they end up in the arms of the regime? These weapons,

if we are worried about us over here, then no terrorist attack has

ever been done with an anti-tank missile which was given to the

missal least. -- to the Middle East. What is to say they will not be

captured by the Assad regime? not just go and throw weapons, you

train people to take out Assad's defences. But the insult is that the

risk potentially is not for Syrians, because Syrians are already

dying, the National committee is worried about one thing, which is

the risk of potential retaliation against Israel. As a Syrian, to be

told that we are not supplying you with weapons because it might risk

the life of an Israeli, is an absolute insult. I am not talking

about Israelis. I am talking about what we do. This is a Syrian

problem. We have become involved, we started to major civil wars... Up to

100,000 people have died. 200,000. How can we stand by? 1000 people

died in Iraq last month. Is it suggested we intervened there again?

There are people in the United States who suggest we should. This

is a potential quagmire. We should have learned by now. We have lost

600 British life is, we have killed thousands and thousands of Muslims

in these wars. I think what is more important here is the people of

Syria. Instead of looking at weapons, we need to look at the

people of Syria, who are dying right now. By the time this programme

finishes, hundreds of people are dying already. We need to look at

them as humans, just like the Holocaust. I believe that if the

Allies had intervened earlier, they would have saved millions of lives.

We sit back, we talk about things, to decide why people are dying, then

we will write books and journals later on to condemn the killings,

but this is the time to stop the killings right now, and to arm the

people of Syria, so they can defend themselves against the Hitler of the

day. Let's learn from history. We witnessed 22 years of civil war in

Lebanon. I live to seven years of them. It was hell. I lived from 1981

to 1988 in Lebanon. It was a world war in Lebanon. Now, IC world war in

Syria. Everybody is involved in Syria. Every superpower is involved.

When they poured weapons into Lebanon, did they solve the problem?

No, they did not. More bloodshed, more hatred, more everything. But

when did we see the civil war in Lebanon starts to move towards a

solution? When they sat altogether in Saudi Arabia, all of the

Lebanese, and started talking to each other. Would arming them, the

threat of lifting the embargo, would that concentrate minds and bring

them to the negotiating table? because you cannot fuel a fire with

gasoline, and expect the fire to... What is the point of arming, is it's

to stop the conflict, is it to lessen the conflict, is it to save

lives, is it to bring people to the conference table? Why is it any

business of ours? The gentleman over here spoke very sternly about, it is

their problem. It is not. The British is a democratic, outward

looking, world power, and the reason why they intervene is when the need

in terms of the humanitarian search on the ground -- situation on the

ground matches the strategic needs. What is happening over there right

now is that the Assad regime, together with the Iranians and

Hezbollah, are fighting a war where they are all in. By all accounts,

they are turning it around and winning. I am afraid to say, it is

not just the 80,000 people that have been killed, all that alone should

be enough, it is the fact that these people are all in, they are on the

other side of a struggle that we must win under all circumstances,

and the rebels are no longer able to hold the position. So, we must, at

the very least, immediately, offer the kind of assistance which will

arrest this turnaround. Why is this a struggle that we must win? Just

one last point, the Assad conference which is being planned is a

pipedream which it is very difficult to understand how anybody believes

that at this stage, any conference, like that, would work. The British

interests which are at stake over there, if you look at what is going

along with our conflict with Iran, at what Hezbollah is doing, and the

kind of general regional peaceful picture which should be happening,

it is something which is very grave in terms of our relationships in the

Gulf, in terms of some of our strategic needs in terms of

resources and so forth. Absolutely valid concerns for the government.

The next cry we will get will be for no-fly zones, then it will be safe

havens, then it will be full on military intervention, on the

ground. That is what the United States Armed Forces are extremely

reluctant... If my -- if I may ask, do we have a dog in this fight?

and if we put our dog in it, it will get very badly savaged. We are

already involved. We are involved in every way. I am sorry, I do not

commend the Prime Minister at all, because he and Mr Hague, all the

statements they have produced were gobbled it can rubbish. They have

managed to get this embargo turned around. Mr Hague should be commended

for the way that he has done that. They have been responsible enough to

make clear that Parliament will get a vote on it. I think they have

handled this very well. Like ink 18 months ago, they should have fully

supported the international conference. The international

conference is our only chance to sit together and find a way to stop the

bloodshed. I am not here to commend anybody other than the mothers in

the refugee camps and the brave soldiers. We keep talking about the

arming of the rebels or otherwise, if you have an ounce of

understanding of what justice means, we have got a side that continues

openly to receive sophisticated missiles, SCUD missiles that he has

used in his own country, Assad has used them inside, he receives

military personnel from Iran and from Hezbollah, and absolutely, from

the Russians he is receiving the intelligence and the consultancy,

and if you want to prevent it... Toggle it is a massive game of chess

being played on this soil. I totally agree with Frank. It is bizarre to

hear this from the British. The British people have been bringing

these two places, helping other nations... It is striking to hear

this. It is like saying we are stepping away from the Bosnian

massacre at the time. This is the way you are putting it. I am very

glad you mentioned Bosnia. Excuse me. When you are interfering in a

Muslim country, you are helping civilians. I was a soldier in Bosnia

and Kosovo, and in Iraq. I am glad you mentioned Bosnia, because that

was a war we could intervene in and could... Why can't we intervene in

Syria? Because we don't have the resources. In Bosnia, the Russians

were not supporting the Republic of Serbs. There was not an

anti-aircraft system. Bosnia, of course, is less than a 10th of the

size of Syria. This was a war we as NATO, and bear in mind it was the

United States predominantly, NATO could intervene in and succeed in.

Syria is a very different matter. No, it's not. Talking about British

making peace, I wonder what some Syrians would make of that matter.

That doesn't help when you have 80,000 people dead there. I don't

agree with you that we are able -- unable to match the Russians

strategically in the Middle East. I would be upset if that was the case.

Haven't we learned our lesson about intervention? We are not talking

about British troops intervening. We are talking about helping... By the

way, it is possible to separate out the elements of the opposition. The

Al-Qaeda element exists, but it is perfectly possible to work with

General Idris and the Free Syrian Army to separate that our

appropriately. Can you? Can you separate? Of course we can.We know

who General Idris' forces are. On the ground, do you know who is

controlling Aleppo? How can you control, when the arms flow and when

the weapons flow? There is absolutely no way to control where

these weapons are going. What about the Christians in Syria at the

moment? We have lost half of the Christians. Questions are like

Syrian the Citizens. I don't want to give them more value than other

citizens in Syria. Churches have been destroyed, mosques have been

destroyed, people have been displaced... Do you want to push

more arms in the country? This is total madness! Is this leading to

what is already a sectarian nightmare? It is leading to a

sectarian nightmare, but the conversation has to be about, what

is the cost of inaction? It is not just if we do this terrible things

will happen. Terrible things are already happening. Let's go to the

audience I agree with the gentleman at the end there. We should stop

approaching the situation through a strategic political viewpoint. We

should try to get involved in compassion, through providing

infrastructure, not weapons. This is where Syrians loosed their truck --

lose their trust in the international community. They call

themselves the friends of the Syrian people. We are talking about the

most developed nations in the world. Wealthy nations, the West, Europe,

but we still have children dying in refugee camps. We have lost our

confidence. Iraq is a stain, and Syria is paying the price. But you

have to think about other complex, such as in Rwanda, where a million

people died where we did absolutely nothing. As a Syrian, excuse me for

not buying the resources argument. To me, it is not something I don't

want to comprehend. We watch people dying in their hundreds of

thousands. We watch half the country flea and being refugees. Rwanda was

mentioned. That non-intervention is a scar on the conscience of the

world, isn't it? Yes, but look who the problem was in Rwanda. It was a

few thousand guys with Kalashnikovs. Had we gone in early and big, the

international community may have been able to do something. But

here, we have gone past this point. We are at risk of getting in a

serious quagmire. The mistake we made in previous campaigns was not

involving the United Nations. We have antagonised Russians and the

Chinese, in the Libya campaign, for example. Why is that? Because we

have threatened their commercial interests with Assad? They don't

trust us because we seem to have hoodwinked them over Libya. Whether

we like it or not, the Russians have a much of an interest in Syria as we

do. We are not here to argue for what the Russians want. We are here

to argue for what the British ones. We need to help those forces in the

region. What about your friend over their? Jenna mac it is not a civil

war in Syria into your mouth. It is a revolution against a dictatorship.

It is a revolution against a dictatorial regime. We should help

people to reach their dignity and their democracy. What do we do with

that? What kind of Syria do you want at the end of it? We want a Syria

that is peaceful for all religions and all people on the planet. We

want it to be peaceful, whether secular, Islamic or democratic. The

important thing is what the people of Syria want. Have we asked them

what they want? They want to get rid of this Hitler-like dictator, Bashar

al-Assad, who has the support of Iran. We hear all the time that Iran

is developing nuclear weapons. They are playing an active role in this

conflict. Do we want them to have a stronger role? Assad has, to date,

killed more than 100,000 people. He is not stopping. They have

slaughtered civilians, systemically bombed hospitals, one that places

where civilians are. When opposition fighters are trying to take

civilians out, civilians are killed. This is taking place right

under our noses. We need to do something about the Assad regime.

Thank you. This debate is going to go on. If you have something to say,

please go to our website. You can contribute on Twitter as well. We

are also debating this morning, Should porn be on the school

curriculum? And Is rap music a way to God? Please also make any

comments you would like about this programme.

Basically, porn is everywhere. That is the title of the report issued by

the Office of the Children's Commissioner, which calls for urgent

action in an age where sadistic violence and imagery is two clicks

away. There are calls for the Department of Education to make sure

all schools covered the safe use of the Internet and employed

professionals to help young people's resilience to pornography

and its affect on their relationships. You are horrified by

the prospect of having porn on the school curriculum. Why are you so

horrified about putting it into context for children, explaining how

it can objectify and dehumanise, and teaching it in the context of loving

relationships? Why is it horrific? These lessons are not about how to

avoid pornography and its dangers. They are all about exploring

pornography and embracing it in your life. The lessons are about

embracing Colonel Griffey? That is not what the Children's Commissioner

is suggesting. The Government is taking advice from a body who has

just published an online magazine for teachers about how to deliver

pornography lessons in school. They are saying it should not be limited

to sex and relationships lessons. The message is not, don't watch porn

cos it is dangerous. The messages, watch porn but do not believe

everything you see. Make sure there is a video camera in your bedroom.

Practice safe sex. Go to the clinic regularly. Those are the things that

this is suggesting. Is that what this is about? Not at all. For many

years, we have watched pornography. Pornography in itself is not

necessarily a problem. It is the use of it, and particularly now it is

available on the Internet, the impact it is having on young people

particularly, on their brain development and their sexual

conditioning. These are all things that young people need to be aware

of. We cannot stop them accessing it. But you don't need to promote it

in schools. I agree, and I think you are taking a very extremist point.

Look at what the sex education Forum is saying. They have an online

magazine. You can go to their website and look at it. There are

lessons on how to teach children about pornography, how to access it,

how to make it part of your life. Sex is great, pornography can be

great. Sex is great, and when we tell young people that sex is not

great and pornography is awful, what happens is they see it, they try it

and they think we are lying. I want to go back a little bit. About 12

years ago, when my daughter was three years old, I realised I was

raising her in a sexualised environment. The environment she was

born into was more sexualised than anything I had ever known

previously. I set about, as a journalist, to explore the

environment and see how I could protect her. I looked more into it

and I became aware that there were dolls that were dressed as hookers.

In the UK, we have not done enough research on how early sexualisation

affects children. It affects them deeply, certainly in terms of the

hardwiring of the brain. There are a number of academic subjects which

correlate the problems of early sexualisation is. But you just said

that knowledge was power. Yes, but since when did the states become the

parent? It is up to the state -- it is up to the parents to educate

their children, not the state. are saying that knowledge is power,

but we are also saying that human sexuality is not normal. That is not

what I am saying. I am not an anti-porn campaigner. Porn is out

there, and so is human sexualisation. This is obviously

informing teenage boys' attitudes to sex. But on Google and so on, it

should not be two clicks away. think society needs to take more

responsibility for protecting young people, absolutely. But until we get

to that point, we need to make sure there are other steps in place for

education. We try to do that with Alcatel and nicotine. -- alcohol and

nicotine. But we know that young people get hold of alcohol and

cigarettes from a young age. That is why we have to educate, for those

young people who will manage to get hold of it. You have introduced the

idea of nicotine. What would happen if we had cigarette vending machines

in schools? No one is saying that we will have porn DVDs on sale in

schools. That is not what it is about. Ex-teacher, foster father as

well. We can sit here and debate the disadvantages of pornography, but

that is not what this is about. My role as a teacher and a parent, and

our role in society, is to prepare children for the lives they are

going to face. Not for a fairytale life we want them to live. I was

responsible for the provision of sex education as a teacher. I also

taught lessons about drugs. I didn't want them to take drugs, but we had

to face that. I taught them about racial discrimination as well. We

have to teach them about the reality of their lives, whether we agree or

disagree with it. It is our duty. It is not about giving them a website

address and telling them to check out the porn site. Is this

dangerously close to promoting pornography? Of course it is. If you

look at what the sex education Forum is suggesting, they are giving less

than ideas to teachers. The website they are suggesting as a resource to

use is one where kids can go on, and it is everything from bondage to

beginners to the A-Z of pornography. The message is not how to avoid

pornography, it is how to get it into your life. And Griffey is bad,

I'm sorry. -- pornography is bad. There is a lady who has been shaking

her head from the off here. I just think this in systems that we are

going to be promoting pornography in schools, it is nonsense! It is about

empowering children. In what way? What we need to do is to empower

them and educate them in what is a good, healthy relationship. They

need to recognise that what they are seeing is wrong, and that usually

women are being exploited, and we should not accept that. And what is

a good relationship tests because that does not come across off and

enough in sex education, unfortunately, we do not talk enough

about the importance of good relationships. Relationships and

love, yes. If we look at academic studies on porn, they will give you

some shocking statistics. For example, porn is directly linked to

rape. Let me finish. Diana Russell has written for the University of

Oxford... Toggle it is a contentious area. It has been shown conclusively

in my opinion that porn is linked to sexual violence and to sexual

deviancy. Societies where talk about sex is suppressed, Saudi Arabia is a

good example... Finland has recently banned pornography. Violent

pornography has been restricted, not pornography. At 15, you can buy

pornography. We should get our facts right. 19 years old, violent

pornography. Pornography on its own, violent or non-violent, is directly

linked, according to Diana Russell, to rape. Pornography is such a broad

title, which covers erotica of every type. Have you read these works?

Yes, I have, and there are a number of different research projects. The

problem is that experts cherry pick the research to prove their point of

view. You are absolutely right, there have been some research papers

demonstrating some links between some forms of pornography, not all

forms, some forms. But equally, there have been papers written which

demonstrate that there is absolutely no link whatsoever. That is the

reality of the research. Correlation and cause and effect are two

different things. Things like thesite.org, it is a brilliant

resource for young people... What I consider the best way I can bring

teenagers are not to be abusive towards women, to have a healthy

attitude towards sex and relationships is to say to them, do

not look at pornography. Once those images are in your mind, you will

not get them out again. You are treading on dangerous trajectory. --

territory. And get if you do that, you have not prepared your children

properly. What you have just done is to say that your children cannot...

Pornography is such a broad spectrum that what is the lesson, if you were

to be observing one of these lessons, what would you hope, for

14-year-olds, for example, what would you hope that they would learn

from it? They need to know realistically what we are talking

about when we say pornography. Some genres are more dangerous than

others. What about page three?It is a pornographic image, but we have

long since decided that it is not going to be damaging to the young

people of this country. But also we need to talk about the possibility

of addiction, because addiction is really happening. I am seeing more

and more young men have been affected by pornography addiction,

and people whose lives have been devastated by it, because of not

knowing... How would these lessons in school affect that? It is about

understanding the potential, in the same way that we would teach about

alcohol, and we say that there are lots of risks inherent in alcohol,

generally we do not promote abstinence. How they view women?

Indeed, and how they view themselves. We always talk about

tomography affecting female sexuality, but it has a huge impact

on young men as well. There is growing evidence between excessive

pornography use and erectile dysfunction. There are a lot of

young men whose brains have become so conditioned by pornography, that

they are not able to perform in a loving relationship. I think raising

awareness to the challenges, if you are addicted, if you are absorbed by

this virtual world, is very important. But to live in a lie,

that I cannot prevent young people from looking, it is not realistic.

But as a priest, as an educator, as parents, we need to raise the

awareness of society of the negatives, the challenges, and the

positives of a loving relationship. Like drugs, I never forget, when I

was in Beirut, one single piece of advice, which just stuck in my head

- the lady said to me, a doctor, Katie, she said to us, there are

things in life you should not try to know the devastating effects. One of

them is drugs. Alcohol is a drug... Yes, but you can try it, and you do

not get addicted. But some drugs, if you try them, you get addicted. Some

drugs. So, you have to raise the awareness of our young people.

are different genres of drugs. Caffeine is a drug as well. But

absolutely, do not try cocaine, crack cocaine. Can porn be good for

a relationship? It can be, it can offer benefits, it can cause

addiction, but it can be beneficial. Having taught in this area, one

important aspect of this is discussion, creating a forum for

debate. It is a gross disservice to our young people that we cannot

allow them the opportunity to talk about something, whether we agree

with it or not, to talk about something which is affecting their

lives. The lady there... I am a teacher as well and I agree totally.

If you do not discuss and the kids do not have the chance to be honest,

you do not know what you are dealing with. If they are just nodding dogs,

you are almost making it like a forbidden fruit. And talk to the

parents as well. Kids do not want to talk to their parents. I went to the

kind of school which some of you seem to be advocating, where there

was no sexual education, and parents were expected to do the job, and I

saw girls getting pregnant underage, and boys look that porn, and

possibly the girls as well. Also, something which is being ignored

here is that for some people, pornography is about something which

is life affirming and bringing joy to their lives, and for others, it

brings damage, and sometimes it results in a negative view of women.

Some are still it features performers who are being coerced

into doing what they are doing. If this is not discussed, then people

will be watching it without reflecting on it. You think we are

missing something? It is interesting what you say about how some silver

and do not want to discuss with their parents. That is true. -- some

children. But my 15-year-old's response was, do they want to put us

off it for life? I have been researching the issue of paedophilia

in the system. We are seeing it on an almost constant basis now, and

the idea for me, as a parent, that you are already put into a hotbed of

an environment, a kind of classroom, explicit conversations

with strangers, that really knows me. What we need to do is actually,

parents need to start being parents. Absolutely. It really needs to

happen, we have got to stop paddling up with our children. My daughter

came to me when she was two years old and asked her first sex

education question, and since then, we have had that open question. She

asked, how did daddy put me inside of you? She assumed that she went in

complete. I said no, he planted a seed. You have no idea what your

daughter is not asking you. Lots of young people are hopefully

comfortable talking to their parents about sex, and I would hope that my

children are covered with that. But I do not know the stuff they may not

want to talk to me about. And on heart, I want to know that there is

somewhere else they can ask those questions. The lady here... As a

parent of a ten-year-old who is just coming up to be doing this, I would

rather he had space to ask questions in a safe environment, where he did

not have that parental influence, a safe environment, with his peers.

Why is that such a bad thing, that she wants for her son? Someone

responsible talking to her son about the proper context of pornography,

sex relationships and love? It is very successfully done in the

Netherlands, which has teenage pregnancy rates way lower than ours.

If you look at academic journals and studies on pornography, when

children are exposed to pornography at earlier ages, there is a growing

urge among children to go and practice that pornography which they

have watched. They have found links between children abusing other

children and pornography, links between children getting abused by

paedophiles and pornography, links between children getting exposed to

pornography and deviant sexual behaviour at an early age. What is

deviant sexual behaviour? That comes in different... I taught in a school

where a lot of the kids were Muslims, and there is an awful lot

of deviant sexual behaviour which comes among kids from religious

families. They would come to me to talk about it. I would love to be

able to speak to their parents, but many of them can't. So, what does it

matter? If they feel they can come to talk to me or another member of

staff, at least they can talk somewhere. No wonder 16-year-olds

are leaving school unable to read and write. Curriculum was founded to

stop the factories, and nothing has changed. Why are we teaching them

this? We will have to draw this to an elegant conclusion, but thank you

all very much indeed. -- and in elegant conclusion. You can contact

us... Our next big question... If you would like to be in the audience

for the spinal show of the series, in Brighton, on 23rd June. -- the

final show of the series. In the Bible, David played his harp to Sue

King Solomon, and many of the Psalms are credited to David as a poet.

Perhaps if he was alive today, he would be a rapper, like Guvna B. Is

Rap music a way to God? Congratulations for topping the

religious charts. Can you give us a little sample? Yes, to quote one of

my lyrics, I might look like just another rapper on the outside, but

it is more than music, I have got God on the inside. And that is how I

use music. Looking at your stuff on Youtube, it is beautifully produced

and performed - if Satan comes, I will not have it, I am poking him

like a Facebook addict... ! Yes, that was my first hit a few years

ago, and since then, I have found rap as a tool to get people in and

spread positivity and faith. Some people would say it is associated

with homophobia, violence, drugs and gangs - is that fair? You can look

at it on two levels, for me. One is the music - rappers do not have to

justify when they demoralise women, promote drugs and violence, that

kind of thing, and I use my music to express my faith and positivity. The

second thing is the level of faith, and I believe that God loves

everyone, which is what I try to promote, through my music. You are

not so keen on music, are you? depends on how you define music. If

it doesn't contain any explicit or derogatory material against women,

children or other human beings, or doesn't contain instruments that

drive you to a state of trance, such as string instruments, wind

instruments... Have you not heard Elgar's cello concerto? I thought

the topic was Vince music! It is all music. I thought the topic was

wrapped music! Let's talk about rap music. It is the topic here. No, we

are talking about all music! Tell me about strings. This is madness!

Mozart was given extraordinary Tarrance. Why? -- extraordinary

My point is to go back to God. You should take him seriously. If God

tells you, do not listen to music that is harmful to your mind, do not

do not play drums, then you should not do that. There are many Muslims

who disagree with you. I sure there are, but the point is that rap

music... If it doesn't drive you into a frenzy of fornication! Listen

to Mozart, you will be fine. music is connected to violent

behaviour, degradation of black women in particular, using swear

words... Guvna B. That is the rap music you have heard. You haven't

heard all of the positive, good stuff. Your argument is based on

what you know, and the stereotypes that are drawn towards rap music.

That is the stuff that gets promoted. It is is not the form of

music, it is how you use it. Explain how you relate to people. I will ask

the question. How did you become a good rapper? By copying other

rappers? That's not true. You do not know me. How do you learn to rap,

without listening to other rap music? What is rap music? It is

words over music. If I spoke to you now in a way that flowed, you could

say it was a rap. By the way I was influence, you can't say that. Just

because I was listening to other rappers... It is like poetry with a

beat. I like poetry. That's fine with me. Put a beat behind it, and

the poetry has to be nice, and moral. Devotional music, whether it

be rap or gospel, whether it be strings, is it OK with you? Any form

of music which respects the dignity of life and the dignity of humanity

is a praise to God. Let's teach our children music, because music

purifies the soul. What you are saying, my friend, you are in a

cuckoo land of Islam. Islam also praises God through music. There is

chanting, there is music in Islam. never denied that. Is it the

strings? I do not want to lose the string section! Johnny, come in

here. There is this idea that goes unchallenged, which is that

religious ideas are necessarily good. There are some negative ideas

in all rap music, but I would not say that all Christian music is

promoting good ideas either. If you are talking about Satan, that is

just superstition. There is Christian rap music that can be rank

ignorance. You don't have to listen to it. Music is a choice. My music

is not, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, you are going to hell. My music is loving

God and loving people. I believe the only way to heaven is through Jesus

Christ, and that will come across through my music. Overall, it is

accessible to everyone. The only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ?

That is going to open... Recently I was at a gig. I got home and I had

an e-mail from a girl who said she had been self harming. She said she

had listened to my music and now she could find peace, hope and

happiness. What you are saying about music being rubbish, that point just

proves... Are you denying the connection? Have you heard the rap

of Tupac? I used to listen to these rap, s -- to these rap music, and if

you use the word rap, what I understand... If you want to talk

about the bad elements in rap, we should also talk about the bad

elements in Islam. His point is that there are bad elements in

everything. I do not believe there are any bad elements in the

teachings of God. It is good. a religious studies teacher. I don't

just wave my Willie around! I wish I had a yellow carded! I music as

well, but film's know that it is going to elicit certain reactions

from the brain. Music can make you cry. I often think, if they were not

playing that music, would I be crying right now? I am an

anti-religious person, and I believe that religion is a destructive force

in our society, far more destructive than something like pornography can

ever be. People use it as a marketing tool for religion, and it

is hiding the real message of Malaysians -- of religion. You are

obviously very talented. I am not religious at all. I hate organised

religion. I am trying to promote peace and the idea that God loves

you. You don't use music, do you? No, I use my voice, which I think is

the most powerful tool we have. It is like what Guvna B was saying. It

is all about being good to people. I don't talk about heaven or hell,

it's all about loving God. You just talk about God? Is God is implicit

in everything, why does God have to be explicit in our music? You could

sing about dolphins in the sea... could talk about anything. I talk

about the Prophet Mohammed, about his teachings, and about how I have

been saved by my religion, which has given me a direction in life. If you

have positive music out there, that is a beautiful thing. How much can

we listen to sex, drugs and rock and roll? Feel free if you want to give

us a little bit now. Could you give us a couple of lines? Start

Jackson Society is going to sing us a song! Isn't it telling that when

you look at the things that are famous in the real rap world, not

that Guvna B isn't real. He is saying that it is all thanks to the

Lord. Genuinely, I think it is a wonderful thing. Some of the

messages in rap music are great. I what Guvna B is doing, and I will

definitely be buying his album! were a music journalist. I was one

of the last people to interview Tupac before he died. I think that

rap music gets an appalling reputation. The negative rap is

often promoted, and there is a great deal of more positive stuff. Rap and

hip-hop were all about Empire and. -- empowerment. What is promoted

here is people like Nicki Minaj, really nasty and ugly stuff. I think

it is about an expression, and any form of expression, even if we don't

like it, should be appreciated for what it is. It is the negative stuff

that is being promoted. It is wonderful to see you at number one!

My album came out last year, and I gave it to a Buddhist friend of

mine. He came back to me and he said, the Alban was beautiful. I

played it to Mike Christian friends, and they said that they didn't know

Islam was a religion of peace. What you see in the media is not what you

will hear from me. You will hear my story of Islam. It is all about the

negativity in life. Society is so crazy at the moment, all the bad

things happening... There's good Muslims, Christians and Jews out

there, but you don't tend to hear that. It is a testament that my

album is number one in the Christian chart and number 22 in the UK urban

album chart. People want to hear more positive things. We hear a lot

of negativity. When you switch off the TV -- when you switch on the TV,

it is in your face. It is a shame. People want to hear something more

uplifting. A quick point. I like all types of music, but if I turned on

the radio and I heard a load of religious tunes, I would switch

over. That this is a long way from the guitar and the tambourine.

are stereotyping. When you hear my music, you will, hopefully, hear

good music. You guys should do an interreligious duet! If they can

both, as a duet, make a Muslim and Christian song, it will be a

wonderful album! The reverend air is going to be your manager!

There is a great spiritual longing and a lot of young people, and I

think the thing that Guvna B is doing can help unleash that. It can

help give the deep, spiritual yearnings that many young people

have... I grew up in a charismatic Pentecostal Christian tradition. I

had these incredible ecstatic experiences during work ship, which

I would have said at the time was experiencing God in music. Then I

started listening to secular music, and I found that I had more ecstatic

experiences with that. I realised it was the power of music, not the

power of God. People like Tupac also have a lot of positive material. I

teach music production in the local university, and I listen to a lot.

Some tracks are written about things like Hurricane Katrina. There are

some very positive things. A lot of these mainstream rappers do have a

wide variety of material. They write about what they know. People are

saying that Tupac is bad, and others, but that is simplistic.