Episode 9 The Big Questions


Episode 9

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Good morning and welcome to The Big Questions. We're live from Samuel

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Ryder Academy in St Albans and I'm Nicky Campbell. 10 days ago,

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protestors from the campaign group No Dash For Gas pleaded guilty to

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aggravated trespass for their occupation of a power plant last

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year. Now EDF, the plant's owner, is suing them for �5 million in

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damages. Our first Big Question: Should protestors be sued? Ben

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Stewart from Greenpeace says allowing civil suits will

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fundamentally undermine the right to protest in this country. Lawyer

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Barbara Hewson says there are plenty of peaceful ways to protest

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which don't cause damage or create extra costs.

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St Albans is where Britain's first Christian martyr was beheaded by

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the occupying Romans for refusing to give up Christianity. Our next

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Big Question: Should you be willing to die for your faith? Islamic

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fundamentalist Anjem Choudary says Muslims must be prepared to

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sacrifice everything, including their lives, for their faith. Imam

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Ajmaal Masroor says God wants you to live a good life. So if you were

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held at gunpoint it would be acceptable to deny your faith.

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It's been a week of politics - parliamentary and sexual. Our last

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Big Question: Are unwanted advances just part of life? Psychologist

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Glenn Wilson says men often misinterpret simple pleasantness as

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a sexual overture. The director of End Violence Against Women says

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there's a clear difference between flirting and sexual harassment and

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men know perfectly well when they've crossed the line. Welcome,

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everybody, to The Big Questions. Last October a group of protestors

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broke into West Burton power plant, scaled up the chimney stacks and

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stayed there for seven days. The owners, the French company EDF,

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says the protest lost its profits through the disruption to the

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construction of the power plant, and necessitated extra expenditure

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for security and staffing. In all, EDF is claiming �5 million in

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damages in a civil suit against the 21 protestors. Should protestors be

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sued? A have Ben Stewart, spokesperson for Greenpeace, and

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two protesters who were up the chimney. That must have been scary.

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Climate change is more scary, that is why we were up there. Worth it?

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Yeah us, it has brought up some really interesting questions. This

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EDF civil case is awful. It is wrong they should be suing

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protesters. If they are successful, what will the implications before

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your lives? Were losing our houses, we pay a portion of our salary for

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the rest of our lives to a big company. It is almost less about us,

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it is about the ability to slap this fine on people who dissent

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against you. �5 million will destroy us. To them it is half the

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day's profit, it is purely intimidation to stop people from

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standing up for what they believe in. Intimidation? I think so. This

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question depends on whether you think these companies are too

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powerful or not powerful enough. I think they are too powerful. This

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will not succeed because EDF is suffering a reputation will

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collapse because of it at the moment, but it would shift the

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balance of power in favour of these corporations and that is bad for

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democracy. They normally would have gone to a Crown Court and been

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prosecuted in front of the jury. in the case in King's Norton a few

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years ago. You got climate change specialist in, and they were

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convinced and they were acquitted. At the jury heard our case and we

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were acquitted. They found problems with the energy companies, people

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were saying this was OK, so let's be clear what is happening here -

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the authorities and the energy companies are trying to shift this

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into the civil courts. They can throw money at the lawyers for

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years and the financial penalties are limitless. I think we need

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direct action in this company. It is a profoundly important tactic

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the protesters used, the short cut, this ponderous political culture.

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The electoral cycle? No, it is bad at dealing with climate changing,

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remote from the people who caused it. We need direct activists when

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we have the suffragettes, we need do it when activists put themselves

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between the harpoon and the Whale and stopped whaling, and I think we

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needed on climate change. We have got the civil rights, apartheid,

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sometimes you have to step out of the legal framework. I don't agree.

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Everyone has to obey the law. The fact that you are a climate change

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protest to does not put you above the law. If you break the civil

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more, you must expect to face a civil claim for damages, just as if

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you run someone over on the way to protest in your car. Let Barbara

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finish. They trust Bast, and it is one thing to have a peaceful

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protest, I am not against that, you can protest outside the plant, go

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on the internet, write to your MP, but it is not right to say you can

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dress pass and expect to get away with it because if someone doesn't

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like you trespassing they are within their rights to sue you.

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knew the legal consequences but we took the risk because it is so

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important someone stands up. are trespassing into our climate.

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That is ridiculous. The government is not always right. If this is

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pursued we will crash our climate targets. We will have more fuel

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poverty in this country, by 2020, �600 will be added to the average

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family's fuel bill. We did ask EDF to appear on the programme but they

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didn't want to trespass on The Big Questions. Why is that the

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ridiculous argument? It is ridiculous to say that believing

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passionately in something puts you above the law. We are not talking

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about the law here. Richard North, there were some powerful words

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about this in the Guardian - "the multinational EDF pursuing these

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idealistic young people, it is like the greedy pursuing the selfless,

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the rich pursuing the poor, world wreckers pursuing defenders of the

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Environment". I think it is rot. These people were pursuing direct

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action to force an issue when you got tired of discussing it. They

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are fully enfranchised citizens in a great democracy which rather

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wisely is going for gas as against coal and this power station was a

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move in that direction. These people decided to inflict economic

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damage very carefully. They are calculating young people with a

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knife appear to but also an understanding that you shouldn't do

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physical damage. You do economic damage, caused as much as you can

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and get as much attention as you can. That economic damage harmed

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the economy, which is not in great shape. They are hurting their

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fellow-citizens because they are tired of making an argument that

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they keep losing. I'm sorry they keep losing it, they are noble

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people, certainly braver than I am, but what they did was wrong and

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they cost economic damage. I happen to be a customer of EDF and quite

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probably my penchant is a shareholder in EDF so when you

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amusingly go against this Corporation, you are hitting

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ordinary not very well-off people. There is a global consensus that

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action needs to be taken against climate change. Politicians have

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been talking about this for 23 years, in that time carbon

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emissions have risen by 53%. I care about the state of this planet, I

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care about it for my kids and it is so important we take serious action.

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You will have to find ways of bearing witness to that passion.

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Don't you think I have spent every day e-mailing my MP? Don't cause

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economic damage in a democracy that has decided against your point of

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view. You are costing citizens' money which we will want for you.

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Anjem. -- Ajmal. If the company is making environmental damage, the

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consequences will be borne by our children and we must do something

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about it. I will boycott and asked everyone to boycott EDF as soon as

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possible. The money they are making is a grotesque amount of profit.

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the money they are making is in a very heavily regulated environment.

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If you want to go without their gas and make that protest, great,

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joined you're young friends, but what you should be careful of is to

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break the law and cause your fellow-citizens economic loss which

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we will sue you for. Her hand went up at the back. What do you want to

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say? If EDF continue, we will pay the damage collectively so they do

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have a right to protest in that way, even if it is to inflict damage

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because in the end we will suffer the consequences, not EDF a loan.

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Protest is a really healthy thing in our democratic society. We

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wouldn't have the right we have if there weren't centuries of protest

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before us. The right for women to vote is because of the jet took

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peaceful and none breeze full means of protesting. It is very important

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that disenfranchised people are quoted great deal of slack when

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they are asking for franchise. And franchised people who have an

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enormous voice within the society have much less right to break the

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law. I feel even more passionately I should be acting on behalf of

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those less franchised than me. We take responsibility seriously.

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much of this is an own goal for EDF to have this in the public domain?

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The trial a few years ago went on forever. Is it a similar scenario?

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It is similar and I think that goes to the heart of the issue. It is

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less about corporal morality and more about corporal intelligence

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and EDF have shown a complete lack of intelligence. There have been

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manipulated into a space where they don't really belong, they don't

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know what they are talking about and of course the law is the more

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but they don't have to sue these people. They have no way of paying

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�5 million. It is not going to get you anywhere. You are creating

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martyrs out of these people which gives their argument more support

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amongst public opinion. That is what they will look like. It is not

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worth �5 million, the damage they are doing to themselves. Who is to

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say, Alison, I know you have been trying to come in. I have almost

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forgotten what I wanted to say. For you almost climbed a chimney in

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protest. Who's to say that in 50 years we will not look back at

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these idealistic people and think they were the Emily Davidsons of

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their day. They are not, they will not... Her it is a tactical mistake.

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They will not be bankrupted. Alison. $:/STARTFEED. We We should go to

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the criminal courts. They pleaded guilty to aggravated

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trespass. We should keep it in the criminal courts.

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Are you saying that people shouldn't have civil rights which

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they can't exercise... I don't think they should be able to

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because they are wrecking democracy and Free Speech and I think...

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are they wrecking democracy if they are speaking? You don't like

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democracy, what are you are you going to contribute here? You want

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to abolish democracy?. We are missingted point m people have a --

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point. People have a grievance. People should not be polluting the

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environment. These people who are protesting really want a Government

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who does the good thing which is to look after their welfare, to make

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sure sure their people don't pollute. This cat and mouse that

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you are having between EDF and the protesters this can be resolved. We

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believe the environment should be looked after.

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Sharia, you are saying? People are having to choose between warmth and

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electricity. If you pro vooded gas -- provided gas, lec and water roe

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-- electricity and water free of charge you wouldn't have this.

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Damien? EDF would be better advised instead of spending millions on

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lawyers, spending the same amount of money explaining to their

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opponents why what they are they are doing is a good thing. That gas

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is a a good idea and investing in more gas is a good idea and that

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would be a better way of spending the money. If you want to stop

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people attacking you, you have got to get them to support you. That's

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what they should be spending their money on. Isn't it interesting they

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have not done that? We are not protesting against a gas

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powerisation. They are trying to build 40 new gas-powered power

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stations. We are talk about the economics and the cost of that.

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This is an economic problem. Come on, let me finish, please. We are

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building 40 mu gas fired -- new gas fired power stations. If we look at

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renewables, within a few years, they will be at equal price. We are

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locking ourselves into a fossil fuel.

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Would you have been willing to go to jail for this? Some of us may

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well end up doing that. It is not that we don't take responsibility

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for our actions. It is that important to you, you believe.

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There maybe people who that happens to you.

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Would Jesus have been a climate change protestor? Would Jesus have

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been up that chimney? We have a strange view of Jesus. He talks

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about blessed are the peace makers and lots and lots of talk about

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peace and turning the other cheek, but one of the things that strikes

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me in the gospels is that story about Jesus going into the temple

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and seeing they turned it into a market place. They were charging

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interest that was too high and they were selling people animals that

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were too expensive and they had to buy them and Jesus walks in and we

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might expect him to say, "Peace. Chill everybody." He grabbed a whip

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and started turning the tables and there was animals and money

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crashing to the floor and he he shouts "you have turned my House of

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Prayer into a den of thieves." was righteous anger.

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The gentleman at the microphone. today's world, Jesus would have

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been prosecuted by the CPS about what he did in the temple. The

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question to EDF, a French State owned company, France's Government,

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why are they working against people that are sent in? It is a surprise

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State owned company. The other issue is about the �5 million. The

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police said that was not the costs that were involved. Where is the �5

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million figure from? Let's be clear, let's... Excuse me.

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It is designed to stop direct action. Protest can go way on.

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Richard, carry on. The important thing is to address

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Richard's point. You don't really see this in the news, but EDF had

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staff desconded into the department for energy and climate change. The

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people are writing policy in Government. You have a naive view

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if you think we vote every five years and we get what we want.

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That's not how it works and sometimes you have to... Hu your

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hand up -- you had your hand up for ages.

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I have a respect for these ladies and it is unfair that we are

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prosecuting them as if they are thugs. They are fighting for

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something that affects us all and that we all believe in.

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Even if they are not, you should support that. Would you support it,

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what if there are people in UKIP had electoral success and there are

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people in the Conservative Party who don't like the idea of

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windfarms. If there was somewhere being made in their area, would you

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support their right to stop them working? I would actually because

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it is about being consulted. It is about having a part in democracy.

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We have to have a say in how our energy is again ratz and where it

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is source generated and where it is sourced.

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It is our gas. Protest in general? Well, it is our

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gas. EDF is only doing one job. They cannot take our gas and sue us

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for it. Do you support protest? I do.

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What about when they were burning poppies? No, I don't agree with

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that. Shouldn't we be consistent?

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consistency, it is our gas. We need it provided to people, free and

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fair and at a fair price and the struggle is between greed and

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resources and that's what we are seeing right now. EDF is about

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protecting their own profit and we are about protecting our own energy

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and renewable energy for the coming days in the future.

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I think that misses the economic argument. Because the real question

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we are asking here, although climate change is a real issue and

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it will affect our children and it affects us today, if you said to

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the ordinary consumer, the ordinary EDF consumer, would you be prepared

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to pay higher electricity prices today for having on shore wind

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which is more expensive today than gas is, most people would say no.

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Tomorrow's children and our grandchildren, they may well better,

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be better off from reduced climate change, but there will be

:21:49.:21:56.

significantly higher fuel poverty poverty. Climate change is an issue

:21:56.:22:00.

that needs to be addressed. There is a social issue that needs be

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addressed for people today. Thank you very much indeed. Thank

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you for taking part. If you would like to add to that debate, log on

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to The Big Questions. We are debating live from St Albans,

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should you be willing to die for your faith? Are unwanted advances

:22:21.:22:26.

just a part of life? Tell us what you think about those ideas. Send

:22:26.:22:30.

us any general comments that you you would like to make about the

:22:30.:22:35.

programme. Well, St Alban died for his faith

:22:35.:22:39.

over 1500 years and Christians are being persecuted over the world.

:22:39.:22:45.

Last month, four Christians were arrested in Libya for distributing

:22:45.:22:48.

bibles and may face the death penalty. Should you be be willing

:22:48.:22:56.

to die for your faith?. According to a recent report, Alison, it was

:22:56.:23:01.

by freedom house, Christianity is the most persecuted religion in the

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world. You know about this. In 87 countries, Christians are a

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religious minority. Some of the countries are countries of great

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concern, whether they be North Korea which is a secular country of

:23:14.:23:20.

sorts. We have Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Libya, Egypt, northern

:23:20.:23:25.

Nigeria. Going across to Nigeria. There is There is serious

:23:25.:23:28.

persecution of Christians in Nigeria. What is sad, so much of

:23:28.:23:32.

this doesn't hit the secular press and we don't know about it. There

:23:32.:23:36.

are people who were Christians who were crucified last year and you

:23:36.:23:39.

can't believe this is happening. People being... Why is it

:23:39.:23:45.

happening? Mm, I just think that in these Islamic countries they are

:23:45.:23:48.

not prepared to be reasonable enough to allow Christians to

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flourish in their countries. They see Christianity as a a threat,

:23:54.:24:01.

goodness know why, but they do. There were churches burned down and

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people harassed and murdered. Or you are thrown into prison with no

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trial and you are stuck there. It is not just Islamic countries.

:24:07.:24:15.

There is a lot of persecution of Christians in China.

:24:15.:24:18.

North Korea is the worst country to be a Christian in today.

:24:18.:24:22.

So if you were in one of these countries, and Libya, it is

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frightening what's happening in Libya, would you proclaim your

:24:25.:24:31.

faith? I hope so, but it will be hard. I think these people are

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remarkable. They are brave. And the other thing, of course, that

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happens it is in India too. You hope you would proclaim your

:24:37.:24:47.

faith? I hope so. Would you go out and leaflet and Bibles, who you

:24:47.:24:52.

spread the word of Christ with the risk of death? The lord Jesus

:24:52.:24:56.

Christ died for everyone of us. We were talking about hell earlier. In

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order that we can have eternal life by belief in him. Therefore, you

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care about people that they have that opportunity of having eternal

:25:06.:25:08.

life. You are a great admirer of Osama

:25:08.:25:13.

Bin Laden and you said that he sacrificed his life for what he

:25:13.:25:19.

believed. Why do you admire that martyrdom? Let me make a point for

:25:19.:25:26.

Alison. No so-called Muslim country in the world today is implementing

:25:26.:25:33.

the Sharia. What do you mean? in Saudi Arabia. He wants the

:25:33.:25:37.

proper Sharia. There is no room for manoeuvre in in any of these

:25:37.:25:39.

countries. If You look at the history when we

:25:40.:25:47.

had the Sharia, 800 years in Spain. If you look for example in Syria,

:25:47.:25:51.

the churches are still there. What people are doing in the name of

:25:51.:25:54.

religion... This is important, coming back to what I was saying,

:25:54.:25:58.

would you be allowed to spread the word of Christ and give people

:25:58.:26:03.

Bibles and leaflets and convert them to Christianity, yes or no?

:26:03.:26:07.

would envit them to -- invite them to embrace Islam.

:26:07.:26:15.

I take that as a no. If you look at Spain under the Shah under Sharia,

:26:15.:26:19.

the Christian and Jewish texts were translated into modern European

:26:19.:26:22.

languages because the Muslims allowed them. It is not against

:26:22.:26:32.

material... Would they be able to convert Muslims? No. Exactly.

:26:32.:26:35.

a second, Alison. Allow me to say what Islam says. Christians and

:26:36.:26:40.

Jews would be allowed to practise their religion in their churches,

:26:40.:26:46.

and synagogues and homes. It is a Christian's duty to spread the word.

:26:46.:26:51.

Because of the love of God. Let's have a look. In Kashmir, we are

:26:51.:27:00.

hounded by the Hindus. In Chechnya by the Russians. Tony Blair and

:27:00.:27:03.

George Bush were Christians, they bombed us in Iraq and Afghanistan.

:27:03.:27:09.

If you are going to look at what people are doing... They came to

:27:09.:27:12.

help you in Kosovo. They didn't help us.

:27:12.:27:16.

Is it it right to be in a situation that you would proclaim for your

:27:16.:27:20.

faith and be willing to die for your faith or should you tell a

:27:21.:27:25.

little white lie? The purpose is to lead a good descend life and if you

:27:25.:27:28.

are dead, you are useless to yourself and you are useless to God.

:27:29.:27:32.

I don't think the purpose of all of us is to die. Death will come, but

:27:32.:27:40.

in the process of proclaiming your faith and in the process of

:27:40.:27:43.

standing for justice and it is a fantastic thing, people should

:27:43.:27:47.

celebrate that. What's we call the glory of a person who has given

:27:47.:27:55.

their life to pro protecting other human beings. The other point, was

:27:55.:28:02.

to do with Sharia. I disagree with that. Islam wouldn't stop

:28:02.:28:08.

Chrisanity or or any other religion from propagating their faith.

:28:08.:28:11.

It does. Islam wouldn't. There is a verse in

:28:11.:28:15.

the Koran which is clear. There is no compassion in religion. Nobody

:28:15.:28:18.

would be compelled to convert or accept any faith of anyone's choice,

:28:18.:28:23.

it would be their choice. If you want to live in a a Muslim society,

:28:23.:28:31.

there should be a free-market for all faith to flourish and propagate.

:28:31.:28:35.

I agree there isn't. Islam would allow it. Why isn't, hold on, why

:28:35.:28:41.

isn't at the moment, I will I will give an example now. My parents

:28:41.:28:51.
:28:51.:28:53.

come from Bangladesh. The bash desh Government -- Bangladesh Government

:28:53.:28:58.

- there were people shot dead this morning. It is not only Christians

:28:58.:29:02.

persecuted, I am saying secular fundamentalists are persecuting

:29:02.:29:08.

people of relij on. People -- religion. People persecute one

:29:08.:29:12.

another for other reasons. I believe this the whole world is one,

:29:12.:29:17.

Alison. We cannot fight with one another saying your religion is

:29:17.:29:20.

better than mine or mine is better than yours.

:29:20.:29:25.

We would have no programme on a Sunday morning! My job is to bring

:29:25.:29:30.

the world together and that's what the job is of all faiths, I believe.

:29:30.:29:40.
:29:40.:29:45.

Religion is good. Human beings People will not be propagating what

:29:45.:29:50.

they here in a public arena. you will be wrong. Am afraid that

:29:50.:29:55.

is from your own designs. We know that you love-making statements

:29:55.:30:03.

which are headline grabbing. It will be contradictory of God to say

:30:03.:30:13.
:30:13.:30:17.

if people of the book were spared them, eat food, marry into their

:30:18.:30:27.
:30:28.:30:33.

family,, but stop them from... you believe people should die for

:30:33.:30:43.
:30:43.:30:45.

abandonment of faith? I believe... Another yes, isn't it? Kill him,

:30:45.:30:52.

after a court trial, evidence, that is living under Sharia court.

:30:52.:31:02.
:31:02.:31:05.

Richard North. Matters are a very good thing in terms of St Alban, on

:31:05.:31:14.

the other hand one should counsel against it when it is glamorised.

:31:15.:31:18.

Young Muslims should not be encouraged and the idea there is

:31:18.:31:22.

something sexy and glamorous about martyrdom because they are inclined

:31:23.:31:30.

to take a lot of people down with them when they go. As well as

:31:31.:31:36.

wastefully sacrificing their own beautiful young lives. Good morning.

:31:36.:31:41.

My friends used to live in East Ham, they used to preach on the street

:31:41.:31:46.

and I have actually gone out with them. This is some years ago, they

:31:46.:31:50.

said that now if you go out onto the streets someone will take a

:31:50.:31:56.

picture of you and say that you are stirring up hatred so you are not

:31:56.:32:06.
:32:06.:32:07.

free to go out on the streets. Nowadays a Muslim is guilty before

:32:07.:32:14.

being proven in a court. If you have changed your name. What do you

:32:14.:32:16.

think about Richard saying martyrdom was such a waste? Would

:32:16.:32:26.
:32:26.:32:27.

you give your life for your fake? Absolutely. Obviously when you die

:32:27.:32:34.

for you and belief system, it is not a waste. Are you are short of a

:32:34.:32:39.

place in paradise? Absolutely. The Christians and Jews being allowed

:32:39.:32:49.
:32:49.:32:51.

to propagate their belief, categorically no because... Let's

:32:51.:33:01.
:33:01.:33:02.

not become like the monkeys in a hostile parliament. Categorically

:33:02.:33:11.

it is forbidden the Jews and the Christians propagating in a Muslim

:33:11.:33:21.

state. I can see the falsehood of Christianity. David Griffiths, we

:33:21.:33:25.

hear what Anthony says, I know you don't agree, but Christian's the

:33:25.:33:29.

world over are having a very persecuted existence in some of

:33:29.:33:33.

these countries we have mentioned. It would take a great deal of

:33:33.:33:38.

courage to proclaim your faith in some of these situations. Yes, and

:33:38.:33:44.

the debate so far has focused on propagation and how that causes

:33:44.:33:49.

tensions that sometimes leads people... His discretion the better

:33:49.:33:54.

part of valour? I think people are compelled by their faith to carry

:33:54.:34:00.

out a whole range of actions. They may take up a particular causes,

:34:00.:34:10.

driven by the things they believe. Yesterday was the second

:34:10.:34:20.
:34:20.:34:26.

anniversary of the assassination of a Pakistani politician who spoke up.

:34:26.:34:34.

I need to correct this, sorry to interrupt. He was quoting in the

:34:34.:34:38.

Koran when God says those who died in the cause of God don't say they

:34:38.:34:43.

are dead, in fact they're receiving sustenance. That is about people

:34:43.:34:50.

who have died in a virtuous way, which used to be able to uphold

:34:50.:34:54.

justice and truth but it does not encourage you to kill yourself,

:34:55.:34:58.

that is the difference. If you die it in the process we should glorify

:34:58.:35:05.

you, but not glamorise the death itself and that is the difference.

:35:05.:35:13.

You can come in after Vicky. perspective is that we look at

:35:13.:35:18.

martyrdom often are something distant and if you look for the

:35:18.:35:22.

process of coming to faith in Christ is supposed to be the death

:35:22.:35:26.

there and then, it is supposed to be the starting point of

:35:26.:35:32.

Christianity. Jesus says take up your cross, take up your guillotine,

:35:32.:35:36.

pick up you're electric chair, that is not a great welcome but that is

:35:36.:35:41.

the message of Christianity. I think we should be surrendering to

:35:42.:35:46.

that message of dying from the outset. There is a risk of

:35:46.:35:51.

glamorising death when it is a mundane reality. What about if

:35:51.:36:01.

religion is not particularly your defining Crete, would you put your

:36:01.:36:06.

life on the line for what you believe in? Yes, I have spent a lot

:36:06.:36:10.

of time in Palestine and the Gaza Strip and I was driven not by

:36:10.:36:15.

religious belief but by have faith in humanity, in the collective, in

:36:15.:36:18.

a shared planet and I think that is what guides a lot of religious

:36:18.:36:24.

people. But when you are beaten and you have got cigarette burns and

:36:25.:36:29.

kicking and imprisonment and frightful torture every single day

:36:29.:36:33.

because you say it I love the Lord Jesus Christ, I am a Christian and

:36:33.:36:39.

I don't want to change, would you do that every day? St Alban was

:36:39.:36:45.

killed in this town by the Romans who showed a complete lack of

:36:45.:36:49.

tolerance. There was a lack of tolerance on the part of the Romans

:36:49.:36:53.

and yet nearly 2000 years later we are still sitting in this room

:36:53.:36:58.

debating that same issue. There is a lack of tolerance in this world

:36:58.:37:02.

and that is the root cause. If there was more tolerance we

:37:02.:37:09.

wouldn't have to talk about dying for your faith. It is almost a moot

:37:09.:37:13.

point whether you die for your belief or not, it will always

:37:13.:37:19.

happen. The point is we should not be glorifying it, we should regret

:37:19.:37:25.

that it was necessary. By saying it is somehow this fantastic thing, it

:37:25.:37:31.

encourages it to were others. Address the reason why. What about

:37:31.:37:36.

Muslims who decide to take their own life because they are going to

:37:36.:37:40.

Paradise, who take a whole lot of other lives as well? That is

:37:40.:37:46.

absolute murder. Can that be right? It is easy to die, but difficult to

:37:46.:37:51.

move for your faith and that should be the motto of all faiths.

:37:51.:37:57.

course. If I commit murder... Although us who commit suicide have

:37:57.:38:02.

opened up a one-way ticket to help as far as I am concerned. God does

:38:02.:38:12.
:38:12.:38:14.

not want you to kill yourself. People are doing operations in the

:38:14.:38:16.

battlefield or because of retaliation of what has happened to

:38:16.:38:22.

the Muslims. There is a difference between that and cutting your

:38:22.:38:32.
:38:32.:38:37.

wrists. I am saying it is different to taking calculated risks on the

:38:37.:38:43.

battlefield, it is different, strapping a bomb to yourself is

:38:43.:38:47.

murder and mayhem. He few feel so strongly about your faith, the best

:38:47.:38:53.

thing you can do is to live and inspire people with the where you

:38:53.:39:02.

do. In India there has been a tremendous amount of persecution

:39:02.:39:08.

against Christians by Hindu extremists. That is really sad,

:39:08.:39:15.

particularly in 2009. Hinduism is a pretty peaceful religion. If you

:39:15.:39:19.

look at the war's over the last hundred years, very few if any have

:39:19.:39:23.

been propagated by Hinduism. They say it if you are thinking about

:39:23.:39:29.

death, in the last phase of your life when you have completed your

:39:29.:39:33.

life, you have created wealth and your family and your community and

:39:33.:39:36.

you have no more material possessions, that is the right time

:39:36.:39:40.

to die because you are happy with life and you have nothing else you

:39:40.:39:46.

need to achieve. If you die earlier, you are dying in a state of

:39:46.:39:51.

frustration or anger and that is bad karma and that doesn't allow

:39:51.:39:56.

you to achieve salvation. Live your life to the full. Exactly. Thank

:39:56.:40:03.

you. It you have anything to say about that debate, more gone to the

:40:03.:40:08.

website. You can follow the discussion. Or send us your views

:40:08.:40:10.

about our last Big Question: Are unwanted advances just part of

:40:10.:40:14.

life? And if you would like to be in the audience at a future show,

:40:14.:40:17.

you can email. We're in Londonderry next week, then we're in York on

:40:17.:40:20.

March 17th to make two programmes, one a pre-recorded special asking,

:40:20.:40:24.

"Should Britain become a secular society?" And then after Easter we

:40:25.:40:34.

will be in Oxford on April 7th. In the 1930s the mothers of debutantes

:40:34.:40:39.

used to draw up lists of suitable and unsuitable men. NSIT - Not Safe

:40:39.:40:42.

In Taxis, or MTF, Must Touch Flesh, next to a name removed over-ardent

:40:42.:40:50.

suitors form their guest lists. In the '60s girls used to whisper WHS

:40:50.:40:52.

for Wandering Hands Syndrome when they spotted notorious men

:40:52.:41:01.

advancing. Apparently. It all seems rather coy and outdated. Nowadays

:41:01.:41:04.

we call it what it is - sexual harassment. Are unwanted advances

:41:04.:41:14.
:41:14.:41:14.

just part of life? Stuff that people should have to deal with?

:41:14.:41:19.

And I don't think they are things we should have to accept, we should

:41:19.:41:24.

not have to sit back and say it is OK but I do think it is a part of

:41:24.:41:31.

life. The fact you have just gone back to the 1960s and the 1930s, on

:41:31.:41:36.

the sleeve it goes back for hundreds of years. We are not just

:41:36.:41:40.

talking about unpleasant physical contact, it tends to be a slightly

:41:40.:41:44.

more powerful character taking advantage of that over somebody

:41:44.:41:51.

they perceived to be less powerful. Power. Yes, and the people who end

:41:51.:41:58.

up in positions of power are often slightly more confident, outwardly.

:41:58.:42:03.

You get to that position of power by being that way, often.

:42:03.:42:09.

Unfortunately when they reach that point they use that to intimidate

:42:09.:42:17.

others. I do think it weakens women to always complain every time.

:42:17.:42:23.

Because I think that part of being human and part of being people is

:42:23.:42:30.

being tactile. He should be OK for me to talk to you and go like that.

:42:30.:42:40.

If that disturbs you... You are not touching his bottom. Give me a

:42:40.:42:44.

chance! I just think there is a lot of play between people and one

:42:44.:42:49.

thing that differentiates people from animals, different types of

:42:49.:42:53.

animals, is that we do cents for other people's feelings and it is

:42:53.:42:59.

perfectly natural to... I don't want to say have a go, but for

:42:59.:43:04.

humans to flirt with each other but it is also human to sense this is

:43:04.:43:09.

not OK, I will back off now. Likewise it is the same for me to

:43:09.:43:15.

be able to say to you, if I thought you were coming on of its strong...

:43:15.:43:21.

Just say it! I would be grown-up enough and I would have been raised

:43:22.:43:26.

strongly enough that I could say to you it is OK, I don't want this,

:43:26.:43:33.

move on. Is it a simple as that? don't think so, and it is fantastic

:43:33.:43:37.

she feels able to stand up for herself but not everybody is able

:43:37.:43:43.

to do. I don't agree that it weakens women to say no. I think

:43:43.:43:47.

even to define these things as the unwanted advances is rather

:43:47.:43:51.

euphemistic, suggesting it might be a misunderstanding that these silly

:43:51.:43:55.

women might be getting the wrong end of the stick. I run a project

:43:55.:44:02.

that collected 20,000 experiences of women in the space of a year,

:44:02.:44:06.

and we are talking about vulnerable women often with men in a position

:44:06.:44:13.

of power. It goes through groping, grabbing, sexual demands from

:44:13.:44:17.

people in a position of power. Women should take it further. It we

:44:17.:44:22.

need to be sending a message this is not just a part of life.

:44:22.:44:31.

$:/STARTFEED. Of course, I agree with what you are saying. We do

:44:31.:44:36.

have to be very careful with all things there are grades of things,

:44:36.:44:40.

you know. There are always grades of things. There is black and white

:44:40.:44:44.

and loads of grey in between. The people that need to be heard, the

:44:44.:44:47.

people who are really coming under a lot of pressure from people which

:44:47.:44:52.

makes them uncomfortable, frightened, intimidated, they have

:44:52.:44:56.

breakdowns, we need to hear that. If there is a huge amount of

:44:56.:45:00.

background noise over every time someone is in a lift and someone

:45:00.:45:05.

goes, "You look a bit nice, love." We can't hear the times it is

:45:05.:45:10.

necessary and I worry about that. As a woman, it disturbs me to hear

:45:10.:45:13.

you say that as a woman and we represent such a different culture

:45:13.:45:16.

here in the western world. If you think about what women go through

:45:16.:45:19.

in many other cultures, they are far behind us in terms of progress.

:45:19.:45:25.

It is very well for us to me it sounds like a first world response

:45:25.:45:32.

to go, "it is background noise. Just get get over it, love." It was

:45:32.:45:38.

interesting with the T-shirts sold on Amazon, keep, calm and different

:45:38.:45:47.

vie violent acts Wednesday women. I saw one in a woman's shop which

:45:47.:45:55.

said, "Keep calm and obey Mr Grey." We have to have one voice and say

:45:55.:45:59.

it is not background noise and every person person counts.

:45:59.:46:07.

Glen Wilson, the author The Science Of Love. You talk about the

:46:07.:46:11.

chemical under tone to it all, but why do some men do it and make

:46:12.:46:17.

these advances when it is clearly not on? Well, they sometimes

:46:17.:46:23.

misread the signals because women as a evolutionary statutory admit a

:46:24.:46:30.

wide variety of ambiguous flirtatious signals, not all of

:46:31.:46:33.

them sexual, but there is something about the male brain which tends to

:46:33.:46:40.

read them as being specifically sexual. I think that's right.

:46:40.:46:45.

Carry on. There is more! That's the fact of the matter. The

:46:45.:46:49.

abuse of power, of course, that is a real issue.

:46:49.:46:55.

But what's going on chemically? What is going on? Well, there are

:46:55.:47:05.

complex sex wars going on. Men emit a chemical which has the capacity

:47:05.:47:15.
:47:15.:47:16.

to deter other males and females for the most part, except when they

:47:16.:47:23.

are ovutating and women emit a chemical which has the capacity to

:47:23.:47:33.
:47:33.:47:33.

blind males to the to attractiveness or unattractiveness

:47:33.:47:39.

of another woman. I was just trying to get around the concept of us

:47:39.:47:43.

emiting a chemicals. There are a war going on below

:47:43.:47:47.

consciousness. But we have a frontal lobe which we

:47:47.:47:53.

have developed as well. That sounds like pseudo science nonsense. Men

:47:53.:47:56.

know well the difference between flirting and harassment and most

:47:56.:48:03.

men don't do it. It is really patronising to admitting...

:48:03.:48:12.

Instincts and desires is not about we shouldn't seek to curtain them.

:48:12.:48:17.

-- curtail them. Carry on, Holly. It is just

:48:17.:48:20.

nonsense. We are talking about a range of behaviours so this might

:48:20.:48:24.

be unwanted sexual touching. It might be making sexual comments in

:48:24.:48:30.

the street which can be intimidating and scary. We did a

:48:30.:48:34.

poll with girls about their experiences in school and one in

:48:34.:48:38.

three girls said that they were groped or had experienced inwanted

:48:39.:48:42.

sexual touching at -- unwanted sexual touching at school. Now,

:48:42.:48:45.

that's not acceptable. Girls and boys are growing up in an

:48:45.:48:48.

environment which is telling them that girls are sex objects. They

:48:48.:48:52.

are not equal. They are not to be respected. It has an impact on

:48:52.:49:00.

grades just like in the Lib Dem allegations. It has an impact on

:49:00.:49:04.

womens career progression and it puts women off going into certain

:49:04.:49:10.

careers. Where is the room for flirtation? Flirting is fine. Most

:49:10.:49:15.

human interaction is fine. Clue is in the question - unwanted.

:49:15.:49:21.

Unwanted and non-consensual. I agree with you. I have two

:49:21.:49:28.

teenage daughters and a a ten-year- old son. I see my role as a mother

:49:28.:49:31.

to teach them how to deal with this. When this this happens what do you

:49:31.:49:35.

do? It is not only the role of the person giving out the signals, it

:49:35.:49:39.

is the role of the person in how they spond. Humans have -- respond.

:49:39.:49:44.

Humans have a nanosecond in which we know clearly whether the look

:49:44.:49:52.

you gave me has been reciprocated. It It feels nice and then we have

:49:52.:49:59.

to go, "That's enough now.". are making it sound like it could

:49:59.:50:03.

be a misunderstanding. Thousands of the entries we have had are from

:50:03.:50:06.

really young girls in their school uniform.

:50:06.:50:10.

OK, wait a second. I will not sit there and say that that is just a

:50:10.:50:19.

part of life. I am pleased that the sexual game

:50:19.:50:24.

is being recalibrated in favour of women. But grown-up women realise

:50:24.:50:29.

that men are very slightly unglued in their presence. And that's not

:50:29.:50:35.

going to quickly change. What do you mean? Blimey, haven't you

:50:35.:50:40.

noticed yourself? If you are around women, you are quite prone to be

:50:40.:50:47.

slightly less in charge of yourself than usual! If you don't get that

:50:47.:50:52.

then you are live in a different male world. I care about it a bit.

:50:52.:50:56.

I am pleased that the relationship between men and women is being

:50:56.:51:00.

rebrated against the casual assumptions that used to be made.

:51:00.:51:05.

It is all about educating our youngsters.

:51:05.:51:09.

Do you know about that feeling he is talking about? Of course, as a

:51:10.:51:14.

human being we have... Moments. don't extend our feelings to action

:51:14.:51:18.

when you do that becomes wrong or that could be right. I would like

:51:19.:51:23.

to say if we educate our children from the day they are born that the

:51:23.:51:29.

opposite sex are to be treated with dignity and honour and and respect

:51:29.:51:33.

and they are equal like you are, don't advance on anybody without

:51:33.:51:38.

their consent. Our society would be much better. Where we are going

:51:38.:51:48.
:51:48.:51:48.

wrong... You talk about education and you back it up more chemical

:51:48.:51:54.

thesis. The chemical argument and what you said... Alison, has it

:51:54.:51:57.

ever happened to you? Has it happened to you? I got pinched on

:51:57.:52:06.

the back side in the lift one time. Not this morning?

:52:06.:52:08.

LAUGHTER Well, I have to say I was younger

:52:08.:52:11.

in those days with no white hair! But if it was happening now, I

:52:11.:52:14.

would say something in a loud voice. Similarly if you get the wandering

:52:14.:52:21.

hand. You would push them away. You are able to say that.

:52:21.:52:26.

We have got to teach our children what is right in behaviour for boys

:52:26.:52:36.
:52:36.:52:39.

and girls and we don't do that. And the girls must be able to say no.

:52:39.:52:45.

The biggest influence on our children's mind is pornography and

:52:45.:52:52.

thooer -- these are damaging healthy images that we have on the

:52:52.:52:56.

opposite sex. Free mixing is segregation between

:52:56.:53:02.

men and women in the public arena. Is this free mixing? This is a type

:53:02.:53:12.
:53:12.:53:14.

of free mixing. Let me just say that education is part of the

:53:14.:53:20.

solution. Give us examples of free mixing? A man and woman without any

:53:20.:53:24.

purpose to make together in the public arena, that is not something

:53:24.:53:28.

that's allowed in Islam. If you allow me to make this point. We

:53:28.:53:32.

need to go back to a divine values and moral values. We live in a

:53:32.:53:36.

society, I think some of the people are... Are you finning it

:53:36.:53:40.

problematic -- finding it problematic being in a room with

:53:40.:53:47.

all these women? I am tempted to give my view. Can I just say if we

:53:47.:53:54.

got alcohol or pornography, we would have a society where people

:53:54.:53:58.

feel more inclined towards treating people as human beings as opposed

:53:58.:54:02.

to sex objects. Men need to take responsibility. I

:54:02.:54:07.

have got a daughter and twin boys and my job here is to teach the

:54:07.:54:14.

twin boys how to react towards women. Not to teach my daughter...

:54:14.:54:18.

It is about humans sensing what is OK for other humans and we need to

:54:18.:54:23.

be in tune with that and you should as an intelligent being you should

:54:23.:54:27.

sense when someone is not comfortable and that's when you

:54:27.:54:32.

should back off. You should sense when somebody is

:54:32.:54:37.

not comfortable? We see this a lot in the media when things come with

:54:37.:54:42.

women, we see this reductionist way of talk being it it where we start

:54:42.:54:46.

saying, "How should women react? What should women do?" In the same

:54:46.:54:53.

breath we say, "Why are women going in out in short skirts? Rather than

:54:53.:54:58.

saying, "Men shouldn't rape.". Hindu, I see the divine within

:54:58.:55:02.

every person. Whether that's a Muslim boy or a Muslim girl or a

:55:02.:55:07.

Hindu girl or a Hindu boy and I should be able to chune kate with

:55:07.:55:11.

those -- communicate with those people. I went to a wedding, I was

:55:11.:55:18.

sat on the table and three three three strick Muslims got up -- --

:55:18.:55:22.

strict Muslims got up from the dinner table and walked away. That

:55:23.:55:27.

presumes that they see the female as an object of sex. I couldn't

:55:27.:55:36.

agree with that. That's not the the case... The reason why? The reason

:55:36.:55:43.

there is segregation for the men and women and people are thinking

:55:43.:55:49.

about segregation. There are places where segregation... Look at the

:55:49.:55:59.
:55:59.:55:59.

stats on mixed schools. My last point is an important point. Please

:55:59.:56:06.

not make this about men abusing women and there are women abusing

:56:06.:56:11.

men men as well The evidence is most sexual harassment is about men

:56:11.:56:18.

being abusive towards women. That's what the evidence is. Vastly more.

:56:18.:56:27.

I think where the difference, we are coming from a prospective of

:56:27.:56:31.

women's equality. It is really important. There is a lot of abuse

:56:31.:56:35.

of women and girls online on social media. It is abusive and silencing

:56:35.:56:41.

and we need to be creating a much more healthy and respectful society

:56:41.:56:44.

and talking, schools need to be talking to young people, boys in

:56:44.:56:51.

particular, about respect for girls. A quick point. If we are talking

:56:51.:56:55.

about advances, men tend to be the ones who do make the advance

:56:55.:56:58.

towards women and it is not generally the other way around.

:56:58.:57:04.

I heard you in the background if I may come on that point. I pointed

:57:04.:57:10.

out that this is about mainly women being abused as it were, but that's

:57:10.:57:17.

in terms of the reported cases and a lot of men don't report cases of

:57:17.:57:22.

unwanted... It is not about glorifying bad behaviour and I am

:57:22.:57:24.

seeing increasingly from our television television programmes

:57:24.:57:33.

and from our celebrity celebrity that it is acceptable and it is not

:57:33.:57:38.

acceptable. That's what we need to say. Women are as equal as men and

:57:38.:57:42.

must be treated respectfully with honour and dignity.

:57:42.:57:51.

You don't buy his idea to end free mixing? What Islam says...

:57:51.:57:56.

understood a lot. It is a man and woman sitting with one another or

:57:56.:57:59.

interacting if they are physically involved or touching one another,

:57:59.:58:04.

there is a lot of flirtation going on, what what Islam says it opens

:58:04.:58:10.

up doors for abuse. What Islam, it is clear, a man and woman in a

:58:10.:58:14.

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