Episode 9 The Big Questions

Good morning and welcome to The Big Questions. We're live from Samuel

Ryder Academy in St Albans and I'm Nicky Campbell. 10 days ago,

protestors from the campaign group No Dash For Gas pleaded guilty to

aggravated trespass for their occupation of a power plant last

year. Now EDF, the plant's owner, is suing them for �5 million in

damages. Our first Big Question: Should protestors be sued? Ben

Stewart from Greenpeace says allowing civil suits will

fundamentally undermine the right to protest in this country. Lawyer

Barbara Hewson says there are plenty of peaceful ways to protest

which don't cause damage or create extra costs.

St Albans is where Britain's first Christian martyr was beheaded by

the occupying Romans for refusing to give up Christianity. Our next

Big Question: Should you be willing to die for your faith? Islamic

fundamentalist Anjem Choudary says Muslims must be prepared to

sacrifice everything, including their lives, for their faith. Imam

Ajmaal Masroor says God wants you to live a good life. So if you were

held at gunpoint it would be acceptable to deny your faith.

It's been a week of politics - parliamentary and sexual. Our last

Big Question: Are unwanted advances just part of life? Psychologist

Glenn Wilson says men often misinterpret simple pleasantness as

a sexual overture. The director of End Violence Against Women says

there's a clear difference between flirting and sexual harassment and

men know perfectly well when they've crossed the line. Welcome,

everybody, to The Big Questions. Last October a group of protestors

broke into West Burton power plant, scaled up the chimney stacks and

stayed there for seven days. The owners, the French company EDF,

says the protest lost its profits through the disruption to the

construction of the power plant, and necessitated extra expenditure

for security and staffing. In all, EDF is claiming �5 million in

damages in a civil suit against the 21 protestors. Should protestors be

sued? A have Ben Stewart, spokesperson for Greenpeace, and

two protesters who were up the chimney. That must have been scary.

Climate change is more scary, that is why we were up there. Worth it?

Yeah us, it has brought up some really interesting questions. This

EDF civil case is awful. It is wrong they should be suing

protesters. If they are successful, what will the implications before

your lives? Were losing our houses, we pay a portion of our salary for

the rest of our lives to a big company. It is almost less about us,

it is about the ability to slap this fine on people who dissent

against you. �5 million will destroy us. To them it is half the

day's profit, it is purely intimidation to stop people from

standing up for what they believe in. Intimidation? I think so. This

question depends on whether you think these companies are too

powerful or not powerful enough. I think they are too powerful. This

will not succeed because EDF is suffering a reputation will

collapse because of it at the moment, but it would shift the

balance of power in favour of these corporations and that is bad for

democracy. They normally would have gone to a Crown Court and been

prosecuted in front of the jury. in the case in King's Norton a few

years ago. You got climate change specialist in, and they were

convinced and they were acquitted. At the jury heard our case and we

were acquitted. They found problems with the energy companies, people

were saying this was OK, so let's be clear what is happening here -

the authorities and the energy companies are trying to shift this

into the civil courts. They can throw money at the lawyers for

years and the financial penalties are limitless. I think we need

direct action in this company. It is a profoundly important tactic

the protesters used, the short cut, this ponderous political culture.

The electoral cycle? No, it is bad at dealing with climate changing,

remote from the people who caused it. We need direct activists when

we have the suffragettes, we need do it when activists put themselves

between the harpoon and the Whale and stopped whaling, and I think we

needed on climate change. We have got the civil rights, apartheid,

sometimes you have to step out of the legal framework. I don't agree.

Everyone has to obey the law. The fact that you are a climate change

protest to does not put you above the law. If you break the civil

more, you must expect to face a civil claim for damages, just as if

you run someone over on the way to protest in your car. Let Barbara

finish. They trust Bast, and it is one thing to have a peaceful

protest, I am not against that, you can protest outside the plant, go

on the internet, write to your MP, but it is not right to say you can

dress pass and expect to get away with it because if someone doesn't

like you trespassing they are within their rights to sue you.

knew the legal consequences but we took the risk because it is so

important someone stands up. are trespassing into our climate.

That is ridiculous. The government is not always right. If this is

pursued we will crash our climate targets. We will have more fuel

poverty in this country, by 2020, �600 will be added to the average

family's fuel bill. We did ask EDF to appear on the programme but they

didn't want to trespass on The Big Questions. Why is that the

ridiculous argument? It is ridiculous to say that believing

passionately in something puts you above the law. We are not talking

about the law here. Richard North, there were some powerful words

about this in the Guardian - "the multinational EDF pursuing these

idealistic young people, it is like the greedy pursuing the selfless,

the rich pursuing the poor, world wreckers pursuing defenders of the

Environment". I think it is rot. These people were pursuing direct

action to force an issue when you got tired of discussing it. They

are fully enfranchised citizens in a great democracy which rather

wisely is going for gas as against coal and this power station was a

move in that direction. These people decided to inflict economic

damage very carefully. They are calculating young people with a

knife appear to but also an understanding that you shouldn't do

physical damage. You do economic damage, caused as much as you can

and get as much attention as you can. That economic damage harmed

the economy, which is not in great shape. They are hurting their

fellow-citizens because they are tired of making an argument that

they keep losing. I'm sorry they keep losing it, they are noble

people, certainly braver than I am, but what they did was wrong and

they cost economic damage. I happen to be a customer of EDF and quite

probably my penchant is a shareholder in EDF so when you

amusingly go against this Corporation, you are hitting

ordinary not very well-off people. There is a global consensus that

action needs to be taken against climate change. Politicians have

been talking about this for 23 years, in that time carbon

emissions have risen by 53%. I care about the state of this planet, I

care about it for my kids and it is so important we take serious action.

You will have to find ways of bearing witness to that passion.

Don't you think I have spent every day e-mailing my MP? Don't cause

economic damage in a democracy that has decided against your point of

view. You are costing citizens' money which we will want for you.

Anjem. -- Ajmal. If the company is making environmental damage, the

consequences will be borne by our children and we must do something

about it. I will boycott and asked everyone to boycott EDF as soon as

possible. The money they are making is a grotesque amount of profit.

the money they are making is in a very heavily regulated environment.

If you want to go without their gas and make that protest, great,

joined you're young friends, but what you should be careful of is to

break the law and cause your fellow-citizens economic loss which

we will sue you for. Her hand went up at the back. What do you want to

say? If EDF continue, we will pay the damage collectively so they do

have a right to protest in that way, even if it is to inflict damage

because in the end we will suffer the consequences, not EDF a loan.

Protest is a really healthy thing in our democratic society. We

wouldn't have the right we have if there weren't centuries of protest

before us. The right for women to vote is because of the jet took

peaceful and none breeze full means of protesting. It is very important

that disenfranchised people are quoted great deal of slack when

they are asking for franchise. And franchised people who have an

enormous voice within the society have much less right to break the

law. I feel even more passionately I should be acting on behalf of

those less franchised than me. We take responsibility seriously.

much of this is an own goal for EDF to have this in the public domain?

The trial a few years ago went on forever. Is it a similar scenario?

It is similar and I think that goes to the heart of the issue. It is

less about corporal morality and more about corporal intelligence

and EDF have shown a complete lack of intelligence. There have been

manipulated into a space where they don't really belong, they don't

know what they are talking about and of course the law is the more

but they don't have to sue these people. They have no way of paying

�5 million. It is not going to get you anywhere. You are creating

martyrs out of these people which gives their argument more support

amongst public opinion. That is what they will look like. It is not

worth �5 million, the damage they are doing to themselves. Who is to

say, Alison, I know you have been trying to come in. I have almost

forgotten what I wanted to say. For you almost climbed a chimney in

protest. Who's to say that in 50 years we will not look back at

these idealistic people and think they were the Emily Davidsons of

their day. They are not, they will not... Her it is a tactical mistake.

They will not be bankrupted. Alison. $:/STARTFEED. We We should go to

the criminal courts. They pleaded guilty to aggravated

trespass. We should keep it in the criminal courts.

Are you saying that people shouldn't have civil rights which

they can't exercise... I don't think they should be able to

because they are wrecking democracy and Free Speech and I think...

are they wrecking democracy if they are speaking? You don't like

democracy, what are you are you going to contribute here? You want

to abolish democracy?. We are missingted point m people have a --

point. People have a grievance. People should not be polluting the

environment. These people who are protesting really want a Government

who does the good thing which is to look after their welfare, to make

sure sure their people don't pollute. This cat and mouse that

you are having between EDF and the protesters this can be resolved. We

believe the environment should be looked after.

Sharia, you are saying? People are having to choose between warmth and

electricity. If you pro vooded gas -- provided gas, lec and water roe

-- electricity and water free of charge you wouldn't have this.

Damien? EDF would be better advised instead of spending millions on

lawyers, spending the same amount of money explaining to their

opponents why what they are they are doing is a good thing. That gas

is a a good idea and investing in more gas is a good idea and that

would be a better way of spending the money. If you want to stop

people attacking you, you have got to get them to support you. That's

what they should be spending their money on. Isn't it interesting they

have not done that? We are not protesting against a gas

powerisation. They are trying to build 40 new gas-powered power

stations. We are talk about the economics and the cost of that.

This is an economic problem. Come on, let me finish, please. We are

building 40 mu gas fired -- new gas fired power stations. If we look at

renewables, within a few years, they will be at equal price. We are

locking ourselves into a fossil fuel.

Would you have been willing to go to jail for this? Some of us may

well end up doing that. It is not that we don't take responsibility

for our actions. It is that important to you, you believe.

There maybe people who that happens to you.

Would Jesus have been a climate change protestor? Would Jesus have

been up that chimney? We have a strange view of Jesus. He talks

about blessed are the peace makers and lots and lots of talk about

peace and turning the other cheek, but one of the things that strikes

me in the gospels is that story about Jesus going into the temple

and seeing they turned it into a market place. They were charging

interest that was too high and they were selling people animals that

were too expensive and they had to buy them and Jesus walks in and we

might expect him to say, "Peace. Chill everybody." He grabbed a whip

and started turning the tables and there was animals and money

crashing to the floor and he he shouts "you have turned my House of

Prayer into a den of thieves." was righteous anger.

The gentleman at the microphone. today's world, Jesus would have

been prosecuted by the CPS about what he did in the temple. The

question to EDF, a French State owned company, France's Government,

why are they working against people that are sent in? It is a surprise

State owned company. The other issue is about the �5 million. The

police said that was not the costs that were involved. Where is the �5

million figure from? Let's be clear, let's... Excuse me.

It is designed to stop direct action. Protest can go way on.

Richard, carry on. The important thing is to address

Richard's point. You don't really see this in the news, but EDF had

staff desconded into the department for energy and climate change. The

people are writing policy in Government. You have a naive view

if you think we vote every five years and we get what we want.

That's not how it works and sometimes you have to... Hu your

hand up -- you had your hand up for ages.

I have a respect for these ladies and it is unfair that we are

prosecuting them as if they are thugs. They are fighting for

something that affects us all and that we all believe in.

Even if they are not, you should support that. Would you support it,

what if there are people in UKIP had electoral success and there are

people in the Conservative Party who don't like the idea of

windfarms. If there was somewhere being made in their area, would you

support their right to stop them working? I would actually because

it is about being consulted. It is about having a part in democracy.

We have to have a say in how our energy is again ratz and where it

is source generated and where it is sourced.

It is our gas. Protest in general? Well, it is our

gas. EDF is only doing one job. They cannot take our gas and sue us

for it. Do you support protest? I do.

What about when they were burning poppies? No, I don't agree with

that. Shouldn't we be consistent?

consistency, it is our gas. We need it provided to people, free and

fair and at a fair price and the struggle is between greed and

resources and that's what we are seeing right now. EDF is about

protecting their own profit and we are about protecting our own energy

and renewable energy for the coming days in the future.

I think that misses the economic argument. Because the real question

we are asking here, although climate change is a real issue and

it will affect our children and it affects us today, if you said to

the ordinary consumer, the ordinary EDF consumer, would you be prepared

to pay higher electricity prices today for having on shore wind

which is more expensive today than gas is, most people would say no.

Tomorrow's children and our grandchildren, they may well better,

be better off from reduced climate change, but there will be

significantly higher fuel poverty poverty. Climate change is an issue

that needs to be addressed. There is a social issue that needs be

addressed for people today. Thank you very much indeed. Thank

you for taking part. If you would like to add to that debate, log on

to The Big Questions. We are debating live from St Albans,

should you be willing to die for your faith? Are unwanted advances

just a part of life? Tell us what you think about those ideas. Send

us any general comments that you you would like to make about the

programme. Well, St Alban died for his faith

over 1500 years and Christians are being persecuted over the world.

Last month, four Christians were arrested in Libya for distributing

bibles and may face the death penalty. Should you be be willing

to die for your faith?. According to a recent report, Alison, it was

by freedom house, Christianity is the most persecuted religion in the

world. You know about this. In 87 countries, Christians are a

religious minority. Some of the countries are countries of great

concern, whether they be North Korea which is a secular country of

sorts. We have Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Libya, Egypt, northern

Nigeria. Going across to Nigeria. There is There is serious

persecution of Christians in Nigeria. What is sad, so much of

this doesn't hit the secular press and we don't know about it. There

are people who were Christians who were crucified last year and you

can't believe this is happening. People being... Why is it

happening? Mm, I just think that in these Islamic countries they are

not prepared to be reasonable enough to allow Christians to

flourish in their countries. They see Christianity as a a threat,

goodness know why, but they do. There were churches burned down and

people harassed and murdered. Or you are thrown into prison with no

trial and you are stuck there. It is not just Islamic countries.

There is a lot of persecution of Christians in China.

North Korea is the worst country to be a Christian in today.

So if you were in one of these countries, and Libya, it is

frightening what's happening in Libya, would you proclaim your

faith? I hope so, but it will be hard. I think these people are

remarkable. They are brave. And the other thing, of course, that

happens it is in India too. You hope you would proclaim your

faith? I hope so. Would you go out and leaflet and Bibles, who you

spread the word of Christ with the risk of death? The lord Jesus

Christ died for everyone of us. We were talking about hell earlier. In

order that we can have eternal life by belief in him. Therefore, you

care about people that they have that opportunity of having eternal

life. You are a great admirer of Osama

Bin Laden and you said that he sacrificed his life for what he

believed. Why do you admire that martyrdom? Let me make a point for

Alison. No so-called Muslim country in the world today is implementing

the Sharia. What do you mean? in Saudi Arabia. He wants the

proper Sharia. There is no room for manoeuvre in in any of these

countries. If You look at the history when we

had the Sharia, 800 years in Spain. If you look for example in Syria,

the churches are still there. What people are doing in the name of

religion... This is important, coming back to what I was saying,

would you be allowed to spread the word of Christ and give people

Bibles and leaflets and convert them to Christianity, yes or no?

would envit them to -- invite them to embrace Islam.

I take that as a no. If you look at Spain under the Shah under Sharia,

the Christian and Jewish texts were translated into modern European

languages because the Muslims allowed them. It is not against

material... Would they be able to convert Muslims? No. Exactly.

a second, Alison. Allow me to say what Islam says. Christians and

Jews would be allowed to practise their religion in their churches,

and synagogues and homes. It is a Christian's duty to spread the word.

Because of the love of God. Let's have a look. In Kashmir, we are

hounded by the Hindus. In Chechnya by the Russians. Tony Blair and

George Bush were Christians, they bombed us in Iraq and Afghanistan.

If you are going to look at what people are doing... They came to

help you in Kosovo. They didn't help us.

Is it it right to be in a situation that you would proclaim for your

faith and be willing to die for your faith or should you tell a

little white lie? The purpose is to lead a good descend life and if you

are dead, you are useless to yourself and you are useless to God.

I don't think the purpose of all of us is to die. Death will come, but

in the process of proclaiming your faith and in the process of

standing for justice and it is a fantastic thing, people should

celebrate that. What's we call the glory of a person who has given

their life to pro protecting other human beings. The other point, was

to do with Sharia. I disagree with that. Islam wouldn't stop

Chrisanity or or any other religion from propagating their faith.

It does. Islam wouldn't. There is a verse in

the Koran which is clear. There is no compassion in religion. Nobody

would be compelled to convert or accept any faith of anyone's choice,

it would be their choice. If you want to live in a a Muslim society,

there should be a free-market for all faith to flourish and propagate.

I agree there isn't. Islam would allow it. Why isn't, hold on, why

isn't at the moment, I will I will give an example now. My parents

come from Bangladesh. The bash desh Government -- Bangladesh Government

- there were people shot dead this morning. It is not only Christians

persecuted, I am saying secular fundamentalists are persecuting

people of relij on. People -- religion. People persecute one

another for other reasons. I believe this the whole world is one,

Alison. We cannot fight with one another saying your religion is

better than mine or mine is better than yours.

We would have no programme on a Sunday morning! My job is to bring

the world together and that's what the job is of all faiths, I believe.

Religion is good. Human beings People will not be propagating what

they here in a public arena. you will be wrong. Am afraid that

is from your own designs. We know that you love-making statements

which are headline grabbing. It will be contradictory of God to say

if people of the book were spared them, eat food, marry into their

family,, but stop them from... you believe people should die for

abandonment of faith? I believe... Another yes, isn't it? Kill him,

after a court trial, evidence, that is living under Sharia court.

Richard North. Matters are a very good thing in terms of St Alban, on

the other hand one should counsel against it when it is glamorised.

Young Muslims should not be encouraged and the idea there is

something sexy and glamorous about martyrdom because they are inclined

to take a lot of people down with them when they go. As well as

wastefully sacrificing their own beautiful young lives. Good morning.

My friends used to live in East Ham, they used to preach on the street

and I have actually gone out with them. This is some years ago, they

said that now if you go out onto the streets someone will take a

picture of you and say that you are stirring up hatred so you are not

free to go out on the streets. Nowadays a Muslim is guilty before

being proven in a court. If you have changed your name. What do you

think about Richard saying martyrdom was such a waste? Would

you give your life for your fake? Absolutely. Obviously when you die

for you and belief system, it is not a waste. Are you are short of a

place in paradise? Absolutely. The Christians and Jews being allowed

to propagate their belief, categorically no because... Let's

not become like the monkeys in a hostile parliament. Categorically

it is forbidden the Jews and the Christians propagating in a Muslim

state. I can see the falsehood of Christianity. David Griffiths, we

hear what Anthony says, I know you don't agree, but Christian's the

world over are having a very persecuted existence in some of

these countries we have mentioned. It would take a great deal of

courage to proclaim your faith in some of these situations. Yes, and

the debate so far has focused on propagation and how that causes

tensions that sometimes leads people... His discretion the better

part of valour? I think people are compelled by their faith to carry

out a whole range of actions. They may take up a particular causes,

driven by the things they believe. Yesterday was the second

anniversary of the assassination of a Pakistani politician who spoke up.

I need to correct this, sorry to interrupt. He was quoting in the

Koran when God says those who died in the cause of God don't say they

are dead, in fact they're receiving sustenance. That is about people

who have died in a virtuous way, which used to be able to uphold

justice and truth but it does not encourage you to kill yourself,

that is the difference. If you die it in the process we should glorify

you, but not glamorise the death itself and that is the difference.

You can come in after Vicky. perspective is that we look at

martyrdom often are something distant and if you look for the

process of coming to faith in Christ is supposed to be the death

there and then, it is supposed to be the starting point of

Christianity. Jesus says take up your cross, take up your guillotine,

pick up you're electric chair, that is not a great welcome but that is

the message of Christianity. I think we should be surrendering to

that message of dying from the outset. There is a risk of

glamorising death when it is a mundane reality. What about if

religion is not particularly your defining Crete, would you put your

life on the line for what you believe in? Yes, I have spent a lot

of time in Palestine and the Gaza Strip and I was driven not by

religious belief but by have faith in humanity, in the collective, in

a shared planet and I think that is what guides a lot of religious

people. But when you are beaten and you have got cigarette burns and

kicking and imprisonment and frightful torture every single day

because you say it I love the Lord Jesus Christ, I am a Christian and

I don't want to change, would you do that every day? St Alban was

killed in this town by the Romans who showed a complete lack of

tolerance. There was a lack of tolerance on the part of the Romans

and yet nearly 2000 years later we are still sitting in this room

debating that same issue. There is a lack of tolerance in this world

and that is the root cause. If there was more tolerance we

wouldn't have to talk about dying for your faith. It is almost a moot

point whether you die for your belief or not, it will always

happen. The point is we should not be glorifying it, we should regret

that it was necessary. By saying it is somehow this fantastic thing, it

encourages it to were others. Address the reason why. What about

Muslims who decide to take their own life because they are going to

Paradise, who take a whole lot of other lives as well? That is

absolute murder. Can that be right? It is easy to die, but difficult to

move for your faith and that should be the motto of all faiths.

course. If I commit murder... Although us who commit suicide have

opened up a one-way ticket to help as far as I am concerned. God does

not want you to kill yourself. People are doing operations in the

battlefield or because of retaliation of what has happened to

the Muslims. There is a difference between that and cutting your

wrists. I am saying it is different to taking calculated risks on the

battlefield, it is different, strapping a bomb to yourself is

murder and mayhem. He few feel so strongly about your faith, the best

thing you can do is to live and inspire people with the where you

do. In India there has been a tremendous amount of persecution

against Christians by Hindu extremists. That is really sad,

particularly in 2009. Hinduism is a pretty peaceful religion. If you

look at the war's over the last hundred years, very few if any have

been propagated by Hinduism. They say it if you are thinking about

death, in the last phase of your life when you have completed your

life, you have created wealth and your family and your community and

you have no more material possessions, that is the right time

to die because you are happy with life and you have nothing else you

need to achieve. If you die earlier, you are dying in a state of

frustration or anger and that is bad karma and that doesn't allow

you to achieve salvation. Live your life to the full. Exactly. Thank

you. It you have anything to say about that debate, more gone to the

website. You can follow the discussion. Or send us your views

about our last Big Question: Are unwanted advances just part of

life? And if you would like to be in the audience at a future show,

you can email. We're in Londonderry next week, then we're in York on

March 17th to make two programmes, one a pre-recorded special asking,

"Should Britain become a secular society?" And then after Easter we

will be in Oxford on April 7th. In the 1930s the mothers of debutantes

used to draw up lists of suitable and unsuitable men. NSIT - Not Safe

In Taxis, or MTF, Must Touch Flesh, next to a name removed over-ardent

suitors form their guest lists. In the '60s girls used to whisper WHS

for Wandering Hands Syndrome when they spotted notorious men

advancing. Apparently. It all seems rather coy and outdated. Nowadays

we call it what it is - sexual harassment. Are unwanted advances

just part of life? Stuff that people should have to deal with?

And I don't think they are things we should have to accept, we should

not have to sit back and say it is OK but I do think it is a part of

life. The fact you have just gone back to the 1960s and the 1930s, on

the sleeve it goes back for hundreds of years. We are not just

talking about unpleasant physical contact, it tends to be a slightly

more powerful character taking advantage of that over somebody

they perceived to be less powerful. Power. Yes, and the people who end

up in positions of power are often slightly more confident, outwardly.

You get to that position of power by being that way, often.

Unfortunately when they reach that point they use that to intimidate

others. I do think it weakens women to always complain every time.

Because I think that part of being human and part of being people is

being tactile. He should be OK for me to talk to you and go like that.

If that disturbs you... You are not touching his bottom. Give me a

chance! I just think there is a lot of play between people and one

thing that differentiates people from animals, different types of

animals, is that we do cents for other people's feelings and it is

perfectly natural to... I don't want to say have a go, but for

humans to flirt with each other but it is also human to sense this is

not OK, I will back off now. Likewise it is the same for me to

be able to say to you, if I thought you were coming on of its strong...

Just say it! I would be grown-up enough and I would have been raised

strongly enough that I could say to you it is OK, I don't want this,

move on. Is it a simple as that? don't think so, and it is fantastic

she feels able to stand up for herself but not everybody is able

to do. I don't agree that it weakens women to say no. I think

even to define these things as the unwanted advances is rather

euphemistic, suggesting it might be a misunderstanding that these silly

women might be getting the wrong end of the stick. I run a project

that collected 20,000 experiences of women in the space of a year,

and we are talking about vulnerable women often with men in a position

of power. It goes through groping, grabbing, sexual demands from

people in a position of power. Women should take it further. It we

need to be sending a message this is not just a part of life.

$:/STARTFEED. Of course, I agree with what you are saying. We do

have to be very careful with all things there are grades of things,

you know. There are always grades of things. There is black and white

and loads of grey in between. The people that need to be heard, the

people who are really coming under a lot of pressure from people which

makes them uncomfortable, frightened, intimidated, they have

breakdowns, we need to hear that. If there is a huge amount of

background noise over every time someone is in a lift and someone

goes, "You look a bit nice, love." We can't hear the times it is

necessary and I worry about that. As a woman, it disturbs me to hear

you say that as a woman and we represent such a different culture

here in the western world. If you think about what women go through

in many other cultures, they are far behind us in terms of progress.

It is very well for us to me it sounds like a first world response

to go, "it is background noise. Just get get over it, love." It was

interesting with the T-shirts sold on Amazon, keep, calm and different

vie violent acts Wednesday women. I saw one in a woman's shop which

said, "Keep calm and obey Mr Grey." We have to have one voice and say

it is not background noise and every person person counts.

Glen Wilson, the author The Science Of Love. You talk about the

chemical under tone to it all, but why do some men do it and make

these advances when it is clearly not on? Well, they sometimes

misread the signals because women as a evolutionary statutory admit a

wide variety of ambiguous flirtatious signals, not all of

them sexual, but there is something about the male brain which tends to

read them as being specifically sexual. I think that's right.

Carry on. There is more! That's the fact of the matter. The

abuse of power, of course, that is a real issue.

But what's going on chemically? What is going on? Well, there are

complex sex wars going on. Men emit a chemical which has the capacity

to deter other males and females for the most part, except when they

are ovutating and women emit a chemical which has the capacity to

blind males to the to attractiveness or unattractiveness

of another woman. I was just trying to get around the concept of us

emiting a chemicals. There are a war going on below

consciousness. But we have a frontal lobe which we

have developed as well. That sounds like pseudo science nonsense. Men

know well the difference between flirting and harassment and most

men don't do it. It is really patronising to admitting...

Instincts and desires is not about we shouldn't seek to curtain them.

-- curtail them. Carry on, Holly. It is just

nonsense. We are talking about a range of behaviours so this might

be unwanted sexual touching. It might be making sexual comments in

the street which can be intimidating and scary. We did a

poll with girls about their experiences in school and one in

three girls said that they were groped or had experienced inwanted

sexual touching at -- unwanted sexual touching at school. Now,

that's not acceptable. Girls and boys are growing up in an

environment which is telling them that girls are sex objects. They

are not equal. They are not to be respected. It has an impact on

grades just like in the Lib Dem allegations. It has an impact on

womens career progression and it puts women off going into certain

careers. Where is the room for flirtation? Flirting is fine. Most

human interaction is fine. Clue is in the question - unwanted.

Unwanted and non-consensual. I agree with you. I have two

teenage daughters and a a ten-year- old son. I see my role as a mother

to teach them how to deal with this. When this this happens what do you

do? It is not only the role of the person giving out the signals, it

is the role of the person in how they spond. Humans have -- respond.

Humans have a nanosecond in which we know clearly whether the look

you gave me has been reciprocated. It It feels nice and then we have

to go, "That's enough now.". are making it sound like it could

be a misunderstanding. Thousands of the entries we have had are from

really young girls in their school uniform.

OK, wait a second. I will not sit there and say that that is just a

part of life. I am pleased that the sexual game

is being recalibrated in favour of women. But grown-up women realise

that men are very slightly unglued in their presence. And that's not

going to quickly change. What do you mean? Blimey, haven't you

noticed yourself? If you are around women, you are quite prone to be

slightly less in charge of yourself than usual! If you don't get that

then you are live in a different male world. I care about it a bit.

I am pleased that the relationship between men and women is being

rebrated against the casual assumptions that used to be made.

It is all about educating our youngsters.

Do you know about that feeling he is talking about? Of course, as a

human being we have... Moments. don't extend our feelings to action

when you do that becomes wrong or that could be right. I would like

to say if we educate our children from the day they are born that the

opposite sex are to be treated with dignity and honour and and respect

and they are equal like you are, don't advance on anybody without

their consent. Our society would be much better. Where we are going

wrong... You talk about education and you back it up more chemical

thesis. The chemical argument and what you said... Alison, has it

ever happened to you? Has it happened to you? I got pinched on

the back side in the lift one time. Not this morning?

LAUGHTER Well, I have to say I was younger

in those days with no white hair! But if it was happening now, I

would say something in a loud voice. Similarly if you get the wandering

hand. You would push them away. You are able to say that.

We have got to teach our children what is right in behaviour for boys

and girls and we don't do that. And the girls must be able to say no.

The biggest influence on our children's mind is pornography and

thooer -- these are damaging healthy images that we have on the

opposite sex. Free mixing is segregation between

men and women in the public arena. Is this free mixing? This is a type

of free mixing. Let me just say that education is part of the

solution. Give us examples of free mixing? A man and woman without any

purpose to make together in the public arena, that is not something

that's allowed in Islam. If you allow me to make this point. We

need to go back to a divine values and moral values. We live in a

society, I think some of the people are... Are you finning it

problematic -- finding it problematic being in a room with

all these women? I am tempted to give my view. Can I just say if we

got alcohol or pornography, we would have a society where people

feel more inclined towards treating people as human beings as opposed

to sex objects. Men need to take responsibility. I

have got a daughter and twin boys and my job here is to teach the

twin boys how to react towards women. Not to teach my daughter...

It is about humans sensing what is OK for other humans and we need to

be in tune with that and you should as an intelligent being you should

sense when someone is not comfortable and that's when you

should back off. You should sense when somebody is

not comfortable? We see this a lot in the media when things come with

women, we see this reductionist way of talk being it it where we start

saying, "How should women react? What should women do?" In the same

breath we say, "Why are women going in out in short skirts? Rather than

saying, "Men shouldn't rape.". Hindu, I see the divine within

every person. Whether that's a Muslim boy or a Muslim girl or a

Hindu girl or a Hindu boy and I should be able to chune kate with

those -- communicate with those people. I went to a wedding, I was

sat on the table and three three three strick Muslims got up -- --

strict Muslims got up from the dinner table and walked away. That

presumes that they see the female as an object of sex. I couldn't

agree with that. That's not the the case... The reason why? The reason

there is segregation for the men and women and people are thinking

about segregation. There are places where segregation... Look at the

stats on mixed schools. My last point is an important point. Please

not make this about men abusing women and there are women abusing

men men as well The evidence is most sexual harassment is about men

being abusive towards women. That's what the evidence is. Vastly more.

I think where the difference, we are coming from a prospective of

women's equality. It is really important. There is a lot of abuse

of women and girls online on social media. It is abusive and silencing

and we need to be creating a much more healthy and respectful society

and talking, schools need to be talking to young people, boys in

particular, about respect for girls. A quick point. If we are talking

about advances, men tend to be the ones who do make the advance

towards women and it is not generally the other way around.

I heard you in the background if I may come on that point. I pointed

out that this is about mainly women being abused as it were, but that's

in terms of the reported cases and a lot of men don't report cases of

unwanted... It is not about glorifying bad behaviour and I am

seeing increasingly from our television television programmes

and from our celebrity celebrity that it is acceptable and it is not

acceptable. That's what we need to say. Women are as equal as men and

must be treated respectfully with honour and dignity.

You don't buy his idea to end free mixing? What Islam says...

understood a lot. It is a man and woman sitting with one another or

interacting if they are physically involved or touching one another,

there is a lot of flirtation going on, what what Islam says it opens

up doors for abuse. What Islam, it is clear, a man and woman in a