Episode 1 The Big Questions


Episode 1

Moral and ethical debate with Nicky Campbell. Questions include does love thy neighbour mean welcoming immigrants, is becoming a mum in midlife selfish and does society need sin?


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Transcript


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Today, immigration, midlife motherhood and sin.

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Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell, welcome to a new series of The Big

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Questions. Today we're live from Queen Mary University of London.

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Welcome, everyone, to The Big Questions.

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On Wednesday, the press staked out the airports, and the MPs Keith Vaz

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and Mark Reckless, who's with us today, were on hand too, all because

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Britain had been told to expect a deluge of immigrants from Romania

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and Bulgaria on New Year's Day. So far it's been more of a trickle. But

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immigration has been on the rise and it's now being presented as a major

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threat by many politicians and newspapers, from left to right. But

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Jesus commanded his followers to, "Love thy Neighbour as thyself".

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Does love thy neighbour mean welcoming immigrants?

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Peter Hitchens, you are a practising Christian. You should abide by

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that, love thy neighbour, including those from Romania and Bulgaria? Of

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course it does. Nobody should treat a fellow creature badly. That is

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basic to everything we think or do or say. But the people coping with

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immigration do not tend to be the ones taking decisions to allow

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migrants to come here. The people who are saying, come, you are

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welcome, as those who live far away from the areas which will be

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overcrowded, from GP surgeries to schools where there will be no

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places. And so for them to say, you must love your neighbour while we

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sit in our safe jobs and our council housing areas not being affected, is

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quite different from saying, I must love my neighbour. What does it mean

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in the context of immigration? It means welcome. It means looking

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after. Peter has made the case about the long queues at the doctors, at

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the school gates etc. They are down to politicians mismanaging the

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investment. Migrants make a net contribution. Down my road,

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Streatham high road, a couple of delicatessens have opened up. They

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will pay taxes. Their children go to the local schools because they are

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paying the taxes. There are other issues apart from economics, unless

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you are a Thatcherite who believes that money is the only thing that

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matters. One of the problems about loving your neighbours is it is

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harder to love your neighbour if you don't share a language or a culture,

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if you don't share a sense of humour. If you don't share any legal

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system. It is difficult. How do you know you don't share a sense of

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humour with the Romanian and Bulgarian 's? I am a widely

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travelled person, so I know the difference between this country and

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other countries. There are great differences between their country

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and I was partly because they lived for years under commenters. Of

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course there are challenges. There are challenges from an ageing

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population. It does not mean that you bump your old people off. You

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engage with those challenges. Be smug people who say there are no

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problem about this... Nobody is saying there are not challenges. The

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smoke people who are complacent about this are not those who live

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with it. -- the smug people. Nor are they those whose jobs are affected.

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You will not find many Polish MPs, Polish media figures, Polish civil

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servants, actors, you will not find that the jobs being done by the

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elite are the ones I affected by the influx of people from outside who

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are prepared to work for less. Who are prepared to live in overcrowded

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conditions. Owen Jones, has mass immigration being good for the UK?

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In lots of ways, of course it has. The NHS is propped up by

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immigrants. 30% of doctors are foreign-born. 40% of our nurses.

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Many of us may have been brought into the world by Pakistani nurses.

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You may have been tended by Indian doctors. What infuriates me about

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this debate is the way that, since the bankers plunged this country and

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the rest of the world into the economic disaster it has suffered

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since, there has been a cynical and concerted attempt to pass the blame

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for all the social ills of this country away from those responsible

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at the top to people's neighbours down the street. Immigrants. You say

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we should be welcoming. I have no idea if you are a practising

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Christian or not. I am not a believer. Tony Benn once said that

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he listened closely to the message of Jesus, love thy neighbour. But if

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it does mean welcoming thy neighbour under all circumstances, who would

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you not letting? This is the problem with this debate. It is a specific

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question. Do you draw the line anywhere? Where would I draw the

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line? The point we have to discuss as a country is why we have the

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social problems we have. Is it to do with immigrants? There are

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challenges. This is so crucial. There are massive problems in this

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country. Take the housing crisis. I bet there are people in this

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audience, people watching, who are stuck on a council housing waiting

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list. 5 million people are stuck on council housing waiting lists. That

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is not the fault of the immigrants. It is the fold of politicians who

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refused to let councils have the power. This is such a strawman

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argument. Nobody is saying it is the fault of the individual immigrants.

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Nobody blames people coming here seeking to improve their lives. It

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would be what many of us would do in the same circumstances. It is not a

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question of blaming the immigrants. It is a question of blaming the

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politicians who, particularly under Labour, opened the gates in this

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country in a way which is unprecedented. Peter, I want to

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bring Mark reckless. They have changed the labour market and the

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housing market. Nor is it saying, and I have two say this, because it

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is probably the last time I will get to say this, of course you can blame

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the problems of this country on many different things. We are discussing

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immigration. If you want to discuss bankers, I agree with you on a lot

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of what you say. But this particular issue is about immigration. You

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cannot say the problems caused by immigration at the same as those

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caused by bankers. Mark reckless, you were at Luton airport. Love thy

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neighbour, would Jesus have been with you at Luton airport? Would he

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have stopped people coming in at Dover? Mass immigration is something

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he would have encouraged. I'm not sure he would. I hope we can draw

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the distinction between welcoming individuals and policy is a country.

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Has mass immigration mingled for this country? I'm not sure it

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happens, at least not in the mass numbers you are talking about. 4

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million people came into this country under Labour government. My

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government promised, and I stood for election on the promise to cut the

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number of immigrants coming in... I want to keep that promise to the

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electorate. If we just let in large numbers of people from Bulgaria and

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Romania, who can very quickly become eligible for social housing, get tax

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benefits and can send child benefit from this country back to children

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at school in Rumania... I have been campaigning on that for two years.

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If at last we're going to see action, I am delighted. You came in

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a promise -- on a promise of having a go at the migrants. You are

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already laying the blame at the door of the migrants. Instead of dealing

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with the underlying problems. It is absurd to suggest you can have

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controlled system of immigration without being decent and nice and

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all the things you should be to those who are coming in. I lived in

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Rumania for three years in the days of Ceausescu. A lot of the

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conditions that pertain then, still apply now. Of course people will

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come here. What we are talking about is the scale. It is silly to suggest

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that when you have something like one third of the families in this

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country, that is foolish. Of course, immigration is good and we should

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have controlled immigration. Are you worried about the cultural

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challenges, which I think has been hinted at by Peter? Something like

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700,000 children in this country speak 300 languages between them. We

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were talking earlier that the tribalism that we should be getting

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away from. Unfortunately, when you get migration taking place at this

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sort of rate, that is inevitably what it is going to lead to, little

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groups of people living within our society. That is the last thing we

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want. Culture is learning. We keep going on about how they don't speak

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our language. We go to Spain. We don't speak the language there. We

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gather in our own little group and eat fish and chips etc. We speak

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English. The reality is, of course we need to have some level of

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control. At the debate we are seeing, not necessarily this debate

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but the debate we are seeing generally in society, is a debate

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that actually blames the migrant. People have always moved. We have

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always moved for economic reasons. Governments around the world,

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whether they be in Europe or on a much wider scale, they do need is to

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create the types of economy around the world so that people will want

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to stay where they are and enjoy their lives. If you are going to

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repeat his accusation that those of us worried about large-scale mass

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immigration blaming the migrants, come up with one instance of anybody

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ever having done so? I haven't done so, he hasn't done so. It is a

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simple false accusation repeatedly made that this is something to do

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with a loathing or hatred of migrants. It has nothing to do with

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that at all. I am going to come to the audience.

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We will get own's response. Nobody has accused you of loathing hating

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immigrants. Who is responsible what is responsible for the real social

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problems this country has? For example, low wages. People's pay

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packet in this country have been shrinking for ten years. The reason

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we have fallen wages in this country is because we have weak trade unions

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which cannot stand the ground and get a good slice of pie. It is a

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minimum wage. It is the form of globalisation we have got. And it is

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to do with austerity. I am actually coming up with proposals here. Let's

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have a living wage, let's stop employers, sorry, force employers,

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to hire people on the same terms and conditions. Stronger trade unions

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which camera present workers. Rather than an agenda of despair and

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blaming people. People, please! -- Peter. He says quite clearly nobody

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is blaming the migrants. He has said it quite clearly from the beginning

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of the programme. The benefits of immigration are there to see in

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terms of the National Health Service and London transport, and

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organisations like that. A number of speakers are overlooking the fact

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that Britain is a signatory to the European Union. We have got the

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wrist -- facility of reciprocating moving around Europe. It is legal

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immigration. We are not talking about illegal immigration. Many

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people have used that facility. Instead of scaremongering and

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prodding forward bogus arguments. Youth unemployment is right at the

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moment, so why do we welcome people to a country that still has

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problems? With the issues in our country today, like the amount of

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benefits culture and the skills that people bring with them, that is far

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more beneficial than the negative harm that is brought in the short

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term. Mark Reckless? A fair couple of points for you. George Osborne is

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for ever emphasising the fact that there are hard-working families, but

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perhaps next all the blinds drawn and those people, he said, are

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feckless and lazy and unwilling to work. The point is, people who come

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here are desperate to work. They want to work. Do you not acknowledge

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that? Yes, I do, and I think it's difficult for young people in my

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constituency who are struggling to get a job or move up the career

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ladder if employers are able to import workers. So they are not

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feckless? The people coming from Bulgaria and Romania are desperate

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to work, and will work for lower wages, and will work long and hard

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because of the comparison to the home country. The point George

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Osborne makes, there is a comparison with immigration. In order to

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sustain the welfare state, where people paying, what they want to

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feel is that they can also benefit from that, and those who receive

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from it are those who deserve to, and they can see themselves doing

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that if they have to fall on hard times. But if money is going to

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people who won't work, and people who are coming from overseas who do

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work hard but are still eligible for top ups and tax credits, people will

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question the whole basis of the welfare state. Do you say that the

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EU migrants are making more for the country than they are taking out.

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That is one argument, and it is one survey. It is often commuter

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migration, people who take large amounts of money out of the country

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and send it back to their family at home, and they don't come here to

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stay for the long term, but think about how they can make the most

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money, quickly and take it back home. These people have paid into a

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pension they will never claim. Jonathan Bartley, is this right

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about people taking the money and going home? It is not the reality.

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These arguments I have heard for three or four decades. When the

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Asian community came to the UK, they set up an entrepreneurial culture

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and we were faced with a lot of racism and hostility, the thought we

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were taking jobs away. We were economic migrants and we came here

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to have a better future. And within that hardship a lot of people coming

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with ?3 in their pocket became global entrepreneurs. A lot of the

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entrepreneurs in this country are my grits and have contributed to the

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plc of the UK -- are migrants. There is an awful lot we have contributed.

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50s? Who is to say where you draw the line, but if you get into your

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50s and you are having children, you will be in your 70s when they are in

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their early 20s. This is not ideal. My fundamental point is, for

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goodness sake, can't we babies for women who are biologically ready for

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them. I am an older mother, and I recently had a baby. I am 42, but I

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think the main issue for me and women of my generation has been

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finding a partner at the age which is biologically ideal to have a

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baby, perhaps your late or mid-20s. It takes a long time to meet Mr

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Right? It did for me. Did you kiss a lot of frogs? Not a lot, honey. One

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thing I thought was shocking was a recent study said 70% of women over

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50 disapprove of women of 40 having a baby. These are the same women who

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raised a generation of young men who are unwilling, unable and

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uninterested in commitment until they get to around 40 or 42, and

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then they want a 26. The women of my generation in their late 30s or

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early 40s are pummelled by the media for leaving it too late, being

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selfish, and these women have genuinely been seeking an

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appropriate partner for a decade or longer and would like nothing more

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than to have a baby when it is biologically ideal but have been

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unable to find a partner who was willing and able, and by the time

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those guys get round to it, they no longer want women of their age. They

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want to be rich, established. Tyler wants to come in. I understand what

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you are saying, but what we are missing out from the discussion is

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the foundation of love and peace. I don't think age is necessarily a big

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factor. There are many children in the care system, the foster care

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system and I'm sure they are not looking back saying, when was I

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born? We need to take the tradition of the Jewish culture perhaps which

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has a fantastic tradition on Friday, when they lay their hands on their

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child and speak blessing on to the child. So if it is a male child they

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will say something like, may the blessing of Africa and beyond you,

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and if it is the daughter, made the blessing of Rachel beyond you. --

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Ephraim. -- be on you. It is important we focus on the love and

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the blessing. That is the important thing. I see Mark Reckless wants to

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coming, as do many people. We noticed you asked the first question

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to a man, which is obviously significant. What does it signify?

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Is being an older parents selfish. Statistically men die for years

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before women, so the idea women are being selfish is neither here nor

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there. My experience of running a club is that as a woman you try to

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do anything else, go to work, go out for the evening, have some time with

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your friends, and somebody is queueing up to make you feel guilty.

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The second thing you should have mentioned is that is that -- is that

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the statistics are conceding. The overall number is still small, 1% up

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to 4%. A 400% rise. But there has been a steady rise. One thing we can

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do about this is make adoption easier, which is what I said to my

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GP. She said older mothers are great, incredibly motivated,

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committed because they want the baby so much. That is a very good point.

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Is there a sense, because of medical advances and the nature of society,

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women are being sold a vision? I am the daughter of journalists. My

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generation have done something a little disingenuous. We write

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articles saying that if you are in your 30s and having a great time,

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and the women in their 30s say they don't need to do it now, I spoke to

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a male friend and his girlfriend moved in, and he said don't hang

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around because life is so nice. There is never a good time. The

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mistake we made was because you might be able to get pregnant, and

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the fertility is against you, but we can't help that. Biology is not

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sexist, that is the way it is. Because we can it doesn't mean we

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should or it is easy. The best favour you can do any woman in this

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room who is in their 30s in a relationship is to say, get on with

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it. How relationship is to say, get on with

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and 33,000 of them were over 40. Can you put them in a room and tell them

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they are selfish? It's completely unnecessary and judgemental. It is

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not just about choosing, some women do not have a choice to choose to

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give birth over 40, it actually just happens to them. They may have had

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an illness, breast cancer, frozen eggs, and you may not have the

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choice. Also there is the fertility issue as well is not meeting the

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right man. You may not have chosen. I was an older mother, but I think

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I'd turned out to be as good as others, and even though there are

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risks. There are risks but if you put in the correct maternity pathway

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with moral midwives, and give one to one care in Labour, we will have

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lots of better outcomes. It is important we get the maternity pads

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geared up for the women who are older because they deserve it. Mark,

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I have not forgotten you. Let me ask you a question. I think it was

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Stephanie who hinted at it. There are challenges if you are a mother

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at 45 and you have a 15-year-old. If you have a 15-year-old when you are

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60, perhaps no grandparents. They may be feeling at the school gates

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that you are too old. You don't buy that? I don't buy that. I'm

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encouraged by the thought that women are now thinking about when they

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have their children and actually planning. We need to be encouraging

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more women, more parents, to think about, can I afford a child? When

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should we have a child? Instead of having children willy-nilly. I am

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very encouraged that women in particular are taking control and

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saying they are going to wait. Please, do not rush out and have sex

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and have babies! Are you referring to Stephanie here? ! The point is

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what we have done slightly, and I think the media is very responsible,

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is to promote this idea that we can have it all, the beast with the

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CEO's head on and exhausted body. You can have it all if you get up

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that bit earlier and be magical and marvellous. Those celebrity mothers

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who say they are so fulfilled, have personal assistants, nannies,

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housekeepers... I am not thinking about celebrities. I'm talking about

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ordinary women. The thought about, you are going to die, you are going

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to be old and wrinkly at the school gates, it takes a village to grow a

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child. There will be no grandparents in the village. People in their 30s

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are writing articles! I agree with you completely about the sense that

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we put out this image that you can have it all. At the same time I

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would argue that there is just as strong message condemning and

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judging women who are not having their babies earlier, and calling

:32:34.:32:37.

them selfish career obsessed. These poor women are out there trying to

:32:38.:32:43.

meet the right guy, trying to get this organised, seeing fertility

:32:44.:32:46.

experts and all we do is bash them over the head. Audience? Lady at the

:32:47.:32:54.

back. Good morning. With regard to the

:32:55.:33:00.

earlier comment, I absolutely agree. Women having babies over 40, I think

:33:01.:33:07.

it is selfish of us to actually George whether women have babies. I

:33:08.:33:17.

have just had my baby. She is two years old today. I was 47 and three

:33:18.:33:23.

quarters when she was born. I think having a baby is a joyful decision.

:33:24.:33:27.

It was not something when I was very young that I planned to have a baby

:33:28.:33:31.

when I was 47. I hoped I would have a baby when I was 29. Life

:33:32.:33:35.

circumstance did not work out that way. I embarked on IVF, I knew it

:33:36.:33:39.

was great to be a mass of thing for me. I did a lot to prepare myself.

:33:40.:33:45.

What Jackie said about the support and the midwifery is vital. People

:33:46.:33:50.

who do embark on pregnancy when they are older need to take it seriously

:33:51.:33:54.

and that they need to make sure that they are as healthy as they can be,

:33:55.:33:57.

make sure they are eating correctly, not chain-smoking. It is very much

:33:58.:34:03.

like people who adopt. They are extra motivated to have children and

:34:04.:34:16.

make wonderful parents. Absolutely. As an older mother, you have got a

:34:17.:34:22.

lot of life skills. Positive parenting is really important. Older

:34:23.:34:27.

mothers do statistically become good mothers. Mark reckless, you have

:34:28.:34:32.

been trying to get in for ages. An elected member of the mother of

:34:33.:34:37.

Parliament? My wife has just had our second baby. Her age is a state

:34:38.:34:48.

secret. When was she born? ! What worries me about this debate is that

:34:49.:34:52.

the number of people are saying that women have a choice to have babies

:34:53.:34:57.

late into their 40s, and some do. Most do not. I would say to women

:34:58.:35:02.

watching this programme in their mid-30s, if they want to have a

:35:03.:35:07.

baby, they need to get on with it. Because if people leave it, most of

:35:08.:35:11.

them will not be able to have a baby when they're older. It has a great

:35:12.:35:21.

deal to do with me if this programme gives women the impression that they

:35:22.:35:24.

will be able to choose to have women -- babies in their 40s. Most will

:35:25.:35:30.

not. Some can. That is how fertility works. It is really important that

:35:31.:35:33.

women understand that and do not assume they can have babies in their

:35:34.:35:37.

40s because, for most people, IVF does not work. Most women in their

:35:38.:35:43.

40s will not be able to have a baby when they wanted because that is how

:35:44.:35:47.

it works. We need to understand that. Oliver James? Most of the

:35:48.:35:56.

problem is we have men in skirts, sex and the city form of feminism.

:35:57.:36:01.

The feminism I knew at University involved main changing. The feminism

:36:02.:36:08.

we have in America and England is a feminism which is all about women

:36:09.:36:11.

becoming more and more like men. It is competitive and aggressive.

:36:12.:36:16.

During their 20s they behave like men and drink and smoke and have sex

:36:17.:36:20.

as much as men. They go through their 20s and they get to their 30s

:36:21.:36:25.

and biology is completely ignored. The tragedy is that in the 1950s,

:36:26.:36:31.

many aspirations were much lower. That was actually a good thing in

:36:32.:36:35.

terms of what you expected. We now plays such a heavy load on what we

:36:36.:36:39.

get from the relationship with our partner. The proportion of women in

:36:40.:36:43.

the 1950s who said they were paid to marry someone was much higher.

:36:44.:36:49.

Tragically, in the period of history when divorce went up, when

:36:50.:36:53.

relationships or more likely to collapse, women started to place a

:36:54.:36:56.

higher and higher premium on loving their man. What about men? What

:36:57.:37:02.

about older fathers? How old were you when you had your youngest? I

:37:03.:37:15.

was 47. My dad had me at 51 and it was fantastic. When I was a

:37:16.:37:20.

teenager, he was around. We had quality time together. He lived

:37:21.:37:24.

until he was 91. Died the year before last. I really treasure that

:37:25.:37:29.

time we have together. There comes a point when you want to be away from

:37:30.:37:33.

your parents. Fortunately, we crossed over. I really value that

:37:34.:37:38.

time. It was fantastic. I would just take issue with the point made at

:37:39.:37:43.

the beginning about birth defects and about genetics. I also have a

:37:44.:37:48.

disabled child. If anybody in any way devalue my son because he has

:37:49.:37:53.

aided -- disability, I think that is incredibly offensive to him, it is

:37:54.:37:56.

incredibly offensive to other people. It should never be in

:37:57.:38:02.

arguing against having babies late that there may be birth defects. On

:38:03.:38:06.

which point we will end. It deserves another round of applause.

:38:07.:38:18.

You can join this morning's debate by logging onto the website and

:38:19.:38:20.

following the link to the online discussion. You can tweet. Tell us

:38:21.:38:27.

what you think of our last programme as well, does society need send? --

:38:28.:38:39.

last issue. We are recruiting audiences for Salford on January the

:38:40.:38:44.

19th, Bishop Stortford on February the 2nd and Leicester on the ninth.

:38:45.:38:53.

Well, did you make any New Year resolutions? The turn of the years

:38:54.:38:57.

when many of us try to turn over a new leaf, to reform, to stop being

:38:58.:39:01.

sinners. Lost, sloths and Raff are hard enough. What would happen to

:39:02.:39:07.

the economy if we gave up greed, gluttony, envy and pride? Does

:39:08.:39:14.

society need send? Where is Stewart? Hello, Stuart. Yes, greed is

:39:15.:39:25.

essential and sin, they are just essential to how society works. I

:39:26.:39:30.

can see Alan gearing up to Temme to ten metre threads. I have a real

:39:31.:39:33.

issue with socialism all over the world. Greed is what drives society

:39:34.:39:41.

forward. It links with immigration. I get up at six every morning not

:39:42.:39:45.

because I want to but because I have a desire to better myself and the

:39:46.:39:49.

children that I may one day have, if I can find a victim to have them for

:39:50.:39:56.

me! You have a successful business that turned over 3 million last

:39:57.:40:03.

year. ?3 million is nothing. Why is that sin? I don't equate that with

:40:04.:40:10.

greed at all. You do have to be quite ruthless. Oh and's trade

:40:11.:40:16.

unionist debate... Stop picking on Owen! Are you proud of what you have

:40:17.:40:27.

achieved? I am very proud. You have got a lot of sports cars and so

:40:28.:40:38.

forth? Absolutely. Three. Why? Unfortunately, women are not

:40:39.:40:41.

attracted to cars and it has taken me 25 years to realise that! Peter

:40:42.:40:49.

Hitchens, what do you think about this? Greed is part of capitalism

:40:50.:40:54.

and is an impetus for success. Does not have to be -- greed. The desire

:40:55.:41:01.

to be the best at what you can be, if that brings you riches... Exactly

:41:02.:41:06.

what we do not need is more greed and more dishonesty and more sin.

:41:07.:41:09.

That is what has got us into the mess that we are in. What is the

:41:10.:41:14.

banking collapse except the absolute failure on the part of many people

:41:15.:41:19.

to behave in honest, wise, thrifty, provident ways in which they ought

:41:20.:41:23.

to have done? It is a straightforward episode of large

:41:24.:41:28.

scale sin and the consequences of it. As some any of the other things

:41:29.:41:32.

wrong with our society. There is no reason to have evil motives or to

:41:33.:41:38.

which to do wicked things if you want to achieve much in our

:41:39.:41:42.

society. On the contrary, you will achieve more if you don't. You have

:41:43.:41:49.

only got to look at those who achieved. If I parked my car in

:41:50.:41:54.

certain parts of London, it would be spat in. That is because people look

:41:55.:41:59.

down on achievers. It is ruthless capitalism which enables me to

:42:00.:42:07.

hire... We are told not to covet our neighbour's goods. Honestly, if we

:42:08.:42:16.

cannot trust our neighbours to be honest with us and to be straight

:42:17.:42:21.

with us, and if we can't trust our neighbours to be virtuous, our whole

:42:22.:42:24.

society would break down. Everything we have around us, this building we

:42:25.:42:30.

stand in, it all depends upon trust and honesty. If you covered your

:42:31.:42:44.

neighbour's ass or their BMW, should you say, I'm going to work hard to

:42:45.:42:49.

get one? It is a motivation but is one of the wrong ones. If you have

:42:50.:42:53.

nothing but material goods to hope for. There are many more important

:42:54.:43:00.

things. Owen Jones, you have had two honourable mentions from Stuart so

:43:01.:43:05.

far. I'm not going to spit on his car and I would not encourage

:43:06.:43:09.

others. It is a false argument this. I am not a believer myself. But in

:43:10.:43:15.

terms of wanting people to do the best possible for themselves and

:43:16.:43:16.

their kids, I want people, best possible for themselves and

:43:17.:43:23.

for the first time since the Second World War, the next generation will

:43:24.:43:29.

be poorer than the last. Society is geared for the personal enrichment

:43:30.:43:32.

of a very small number of people at the top while many are struggling.

:43:33.:43:36.

We have a banking collapse were those responsible end up getting off

:43:37.:43:40.

scot-free, while half a million people in the seventh richest

:43:41.:43:42.

country on earth are driven into food banks because we can no longer

:43:43.:43:46.

afford to feed our poorest people. That is the problem. I just heard

:43:47.:43:53.

agreement between Alan Jones and Peter Hitchens. Mark that moment!

:43:54.:44:01.

Bankers is one aspect that, yes, they screwed it up, to be blunt. But

:44:02.:44:06.

without the capitalist system you would not be sat here now. That is

:44:07.:44:11.

the point. Trade unionists are just as responsible for the decline of

:44:12.:44:16.

society. Look at the 1970s. People like you destroyed the British car

:44:17.:44:21.

industry. Well, I destroyed the British car industry! Within the

:44:22.:44:27.

Bible there are no distinctions about sin. Sin is sin and greed is

:44:28.:44:32.

included in that. I am astonished that we have something in common at

:44:33.:44:42.

last. I must dash I am glad to hear it. I hear the young man speaking at

:44:43.:44:51.

the end about how successful he is, and I'm delighted for everyone who

:44:52.:44:54.

does well. I want everybody to be ambitious and do well but if that

:44:55.:44:58.

doing well means you have accumulated so much, and from that

:44:59.:45:05.

you pay your staff a minimal amount, and the waste of money on

:45:06.:45:10.

cars and material things, then that, I'm afraid, is sin. It's good

:45:11.:45:22.

news for the car dealership. Great news for them, but how many cars can

:45:23.:45:25.

we drive at one time? I'm not just picking on your cars. But you could

:45:26.:45:34.

say that is creating jobs. I hope he is creating jobs and sharing his

:45:35.:45:38.

cars. It is whether or not in the creation of jobs we are paying

:45:39.:45:47.

people are living wage. I will edge it towards theology again, you

:45:48.:45:53.

believe all children are born with sin. Yes, you see it in a young

:45:54.:46:01.

child, you can see the selfish nature. Of course you can. When you

:46:02.:46:05.

tell a child, don't do that, they do it. Sometimes they go the opposite

:46:06.:46:09.

way. You can see the disobedience in a child. I am interested in this

:46:10.:46:20.

children thing. I am not condemning children. I'm not saying children

:46:21.:46:26.

will go to hell, but I am saying that sin is something we inherited

:46:27.:46:30.

at the fall, since Adam and Eve ate the apple in the Garden of England

:46:31.:46:37.

-- Eden. With regard to sin as an issue in society, with regards to

:46:38.:46:41.

alcohol-related issues, 33,000 deaths as a result of alcohol. If

:46:42.:46:48.

the Bible says it is a sin, is it a sin? Of course. Do not have a tad

:46:49.:46:57.

too? That is a sin. Do not plant with two types of seed? I'm quoting

:46:58.:47:05.

from the Bible. Do not wear clothes made of two types of material? But

:47:06.:47:16.

what you are trying to do is take it out of context, because the truth

:47:17.:47:23.

is, with regards to the old Testament, which is basically the

:47:24.:47:32.

law of Moses, the law of grace is what Jesus died on the cross for,

:47:33.:47:37.

and we are under the covenant of grace. It is up to you whether you

:47:38.:47:41.

decide to choose and accept the grace, the fact that Jesus had his

:47:42.:47:49.

hands penis and died on the cross. -- had his hands pierced.

:47:50.:47:54.

The point is, where will you go when you die is the question. Where will

:47:55.:48:05.

you go when you die? I will die in a box and become nutrients for

:48:06.:48:09.

caterpillars. When you have society divided amongst religious lines, you

:48:10.:48:12.

are motivated by what you perceive to be a fact in the Bible. That is

:48:13.:48:17.

not my choice of fiction to read, but I don't take anything from the

:48:18.:48:21.

Ten Commandments. I treat others how I wish to be treated, and as for

:48:22.:48:25.

paying your staff, it's a free market. If you don't pay your staff

:48:26.:48:28.

enough they are sufficiently skilled, will go elsewhere. What

:48:29.:48:34.

about the original sin? This thing with children? Sin is what stops is

:48:35.:48:44.

flourishing -- us flourishing. We are being defined in economic and

:48:45.:48:47.

materialistic terms, and I think the Bible offers a more wide view of

:48:48.:48:53.

what is human flourishing. If you look in places like Norway and New

:48:54.:48:56.

Zealand, people are happier and have a greater sense of well-being

:48:57.:49:00.

because they are not pursuing a materialistic, capitalist outlook.

:49:01.:49:03.

They want good health care and education and a good standard of

:49:04.:49:08.

living, good air quality. They want something much richer. They want fun

:49:09.:49:15.

with sport and recreation. Those countries also have less theology.

:49:16.:49:21.

Rosie runs a website that facilitates people who are married

:49:22.:49:26.

to meet other people so they can explore a relationship with another

:49:27.:49:29.

person. While they are still married. I think that would go down

:49:30.:49:37.

as a sin. That is definitely on all of your checklists. It's interesting

:49:38.:49:41.

hearing this debate. So many people have so many different versions and

:49:42.:49:47.

have a vague doctrine with words like lust. It seems this is an

:49:48.:49:55.

outdated set of rules. You don't mind breaking up marriages? There

:49:56.:50:01.

are 2 million lone parents in this country. I was raised by a lone

:50:02.:50:08.

parent, so I have no problem. I am a spokesperson and relationship

:50:09.:50:13.

expert. I guess my vision of the world is one where we have more open

:50:14.:50:22.

polyamory rather than monogamy. Does monogamy not work? We know between

:50:23.:50:29.

40% and 60% of people who are married will eventually cheat on

:50:30.:50:32.

their partner in some way, including kisses at office parties and things

:50:33.:50:36.

like that. We know that monogamy is not really work for everyone and

:50:37.:50:39.

it's important to start asking questions about whether this is the

:50:40.:50:43.

right social framework for relationships. My question to you is

:50:44.:50:51.

do you think it is a good thing or a bad thing? This is the real question

:50:52.:50:53.

here, particularly for the children of the marriages which you so

:50:54.:50:59.

blithely set out to break up. Is this a good thing for the children?

:51:00.:51:05.

As someone who was raised by a single mother, I do, but I'm

:51:06.:51:10.

speaking to lots of people. I asked you if you thought it was good for

:51:11.:51:14.

the children of the marriage that you break up? It's a simple

:51:15.:51:17.

question. Do you think it's good for the children if the marriage breaks

:51:18.:51:22.

up? Do you think that? You are absolutely encouraging it. We are on

:51:23.:51:32.

adultery and monogamy. Does it work, monogamy, Oliver? Yes, it certainly

:51:33.:51:38.

can do, but it depends on the system you are in. The fundamental point I

:51:39.:51:43.

would make about original sin and childhood, childhood is critical but

:51:44.:51:48.

children are not born evil or not evil. Children are very much blank

:51:49.:51:53.

slates. The human genomics project shows that it explains little in how

:51:54.:52:00.

children are different from one another. We think of sin as being

:52:01.:52:09.

bad, but 40% of the prison population were at some point in

:52:10.:52:12.

local authority care. In other words their parenting was not very good

:52:13.:52:16.

and had to be taken over by the state, and 40% of the prison

:52:17.:52:21.

population in local authority care, those key causes of destructive

:52:22.:52:24.

behaviour, whether to others or oneself of the quality of the care

:52:25.:52:27.

you had in your early years combined with living in a shop till you

:52:28.:52:33.

drop, it could be you, credit fuelled consumer junkie society. The

:52:34.:52:39.

combination of society and the affluence of society that we live

:52:40.:52:43.

in, combined with early years is what creates bad behaviour. Stuart

:52:44.:52:50.

confused agreed with aspiration in his original state. You are greedy.

:52:51.:52:59.

You don't seem to understand the difference between greed and

:53:00.:53:02.

aspiration. It is one thing to aspire, it's another thing to be

:53:03.:53:08.

greedy. You wanted an explanation as to why you believe children are

:53:09.:53:14.

selfish. My point is that our human nature is corrupted when we are

:53:15.:53:22.

born. Is it? Yes, we are born with original sin. Humans are very

:53:23.:53:31.

malleable and it depends on the environment in which we brought up,

:53:32.:53:34.

and the reasons we different so much -- differ so much, if you brought up

:53:35.:53:39.

in a loving household, you're likely to do better in later life. Let he

:53:40.:53:47.

who is without sin cast the first stone, and relationships don't need

:53:48.:53:51.

a website to break up, and the reasons some break-up is for good

:53:52.:53:55.

reason. 1 million people in this country suffer from domestic

:53:56.:53:59.

violence. Do I want to keep those relationships together, I don't. I

:54:00.:54:04.

think they should -- break-up in many cases, but what's important for

:54:05.:54:07.

the child is to have a loving household. It doesn't matter if they

:54:08.:54:13.

are lone parents, gave parents, if there are three of them bringing up

:54:14.:54:17.

the child, as long as they are in a loving household, none of us should

:54:18.:54:27.

have a problem with that. I'd like to stress the fact that a lot of

:54:28.:54:31.

people on the website are not having affairs. They want to look at their

:54:32.:54:35.

options and they want to explore the idea of flirting with somebody who

:54:36.:54:40.

is not their partner. I think the problem here is that we are going

:54:41.:54:43.

deeply against human nature, and we know this. We are not naturally

:54:44.:54:52.

monogamous. Basically you are adhering to a little of what you

:54:53.:54:59.

fancy does you good. It's almost a sort of base, animalistic thing you

:55:00.:55:04.

are aiming at. Some animals are monogamous. We need to rise above

:55:05.:55:15.

it. Pray silence for Reverend Rose. We need commitment in

:55:16.:55:18.

relationships, whatever relationships we form, we need

:55:19.:55:22.

commitment. Running around saying I fancy a bit of this or that can only

:55:23.:55:32.

ring disaster. -- bring disaster. Regarding your point about this

:55:33.:55:38.

whole adulterous website which I think is absolutely destructive, and

:55:39.:55:45.

I'm not being personal, by the way. A little bit personal. 152,000 cases

:55:46.:56:01.

of chlamydia in 2010. Peter Hitchens, that is a strong point.

:56:02.:56:08.

What we seem to forget is civilisation is not natural. If we

:56:09.:56:12.

were in a state of nature, unrestrained by any moral code, we

:56:13.:56:18.

would be savage. Things such as peas, Law, education, we take those

:56:19.:56:25.

are granted, but they rose because people observed and accepted moral

:56:26.:56:31.

codes which are sometimes difficult to observe, and based on the actions

:56:32.:56:34.

that are considered wrong and are called sin. That is very interesting

:56:35.:56:43.

because children do have base instincts as defined by Sigmund

:56:44.:56:46.

Freud, and we are repressing it all the time, and I think a lot of

:56:47.:56:50.

people don't necessarily choose to be savages, lots of us do not

:56:51.:56:55.

necessarily want to have an affair. I flirt, I go out, but I don't

:56:56.:56:59.

necessarily always want to do it. What is stopping me is not some

:57:00.:57:05.

rule. I still fancy my husband after 25 years. I am happier now than when

:57:06.:57:09.

I had a lot of men in my life. The big challenge to monogamy is

:57:10.:57:16.

longevity. 100 years ago, half the people in this room would not be

:57:17.:57:19.

here. I would have died in childbirth because the baby's head

:57:20.:57:25.

was too big. What can we do to support people to help them stay

:57:26.:57:27.

married if that is the state they wish to be in? We need something,

:57:28.:57:33.

and I'm not a Christian, but I got married with advice from a vicar who

:57:34.:57:38.

I met and liked about the long path and staying together and

:57:39.:57:41.

friendship. If we all have that support. Relate sake come to us

:57:42.:57:47.

sooner, don't wait till it goes bad. We need more support to stay in the

:57:48.:57:52.

relationships. I am a child of divorced parents, and it is not fun.

:57:53.:57:57.

That has to be the last word. We task -- started talking about sin

:57:58.:58:02.

and we got on to sex. Thank you very much for participating. As always,

:58:03.:58:06.

the debates will continue online and on Twitter. Next week we're back

:58:07.:58:10.

here in East London to debate human rights versus religious rights, so

:58:11.:58:14.

join us then. But for now, it's goodbye and have a great Sunday.

:58:15.:58:22.

Thank you very much for watching.

:58:23.:58:24.

Nicky Campbell asks:

Does love thy neighbour mean welcoming immigrants?

Is becoming a mum in midlife selfish?

Does society need sin?


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