John Arlott in Conversation with Mike Brearley


John Arlott in Conversation with Mike Brearley

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That was as good a ball as Willis has bowled.

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It was up, it was on a length, it was on line, it moved in a little

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and Richards simply walked into it, and on-drove it.

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Willis again. And that's chopped down, between slips and gully.

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Gully, who's Willey, turns and chases it.

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They canter an easy two.

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No trouble at all.

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-Do you have any favourites among the commentators?

-Yes, yes. John Arlott.

-John Arlott.

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Massie, who's bowled unchanged throughout the innings.

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20 overs now. In for two.

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And, after Trevor Bailey, it will be Christopher Martin-Jenkins.

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It's not an easy job commentating.

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I think John's been one of the best, by a long way.

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John Arlott.

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He's a man of many parts.

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He's generous to a fault.

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Both in deeds and in thought.

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He's a lover of cricket, and of cricketers.

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But well aware of the dictum,

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"What do they know of cricket, who only cricket know?"

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John, here we are in Alderney. I wonder what made you choose

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to come and live here when you decided to retire.

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I'd been coming here for a long time.

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I came first of all by accident.

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A neighbour in Highgate introduced me to the island in 1951.

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And I always wanted to come here and retire.

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Several things. First of all...

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the tempo is superb.

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Secondly, it's extremely quiet.

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And, thirdly, and I think this is most important,

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people of the island let you live your own life.

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It's completely peaceful, as far as I'm concerned.

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Nobody worries me. Nobody bores me.

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And I can live alone

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and not see anyone except my wife or my family for a week and then

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do a party, have some people into dinner, something like that.

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I find it the absolutely perfect existence and also, of course,

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it's very good for my bronchitic chest, because the air is so clear.

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What was the first money you ever earned?

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Did you do a paper round or anything like that?

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No, I was very upmarket. I, er...

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I used to do scribbling for Mr Goodall the builder in the school holidays.

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And I was supposed to have shorthand,

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which was a bit of a glorification of my rather thin capabilities.

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But he used to dictate this to me.

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Costings, tenders.

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I also remember it used to end,

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and I understood this for gospel for many years...

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.."To clearing site and removal of dibrizz."

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-Dubrizz?

-Dibrizz.

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I later learnt that meant debris.

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Oh, I see.

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Removal of dibrizz.

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But, all right, that was my first six bob a week, I thought.

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One of your first jobs, not your first job but, I think,

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your second job probably, was being a policeman.

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And then becoming a detective.

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Why did you...? What was so interesting in that to you?

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Well, first of all, my father wanted me to have a secure job.

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We were poor. I grew up in the slump.

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And the desperate thing my father wanted was that

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I should never be out of work.

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So, first of all, I went into the local government office,

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then into the mental health service as a doctor's clerk.

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All pensionable jobs, you see.

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And then, into the police force, which was also pensionable.

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And Southampton Police had about the best

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club cricket side in England so I thought

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if I could combine security with cricket, I'd be doing fairly well.

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Mm.

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I wouldn't say, though, that I was ever a particularly good policeman

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or a particularly good cricketer, but, er...

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It seemed to me a way of growing up.

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It seemed to me that offices were petty and small-minded.

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And that the police force would be bigger, and more virile, more manly.

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I was wrong.

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It could be very small-minded in those days.

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I don't know if it is now.

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Greater freedom.

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There's not the appalling, back-breaking discipline

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of the chaser sergeants and the chaser points, you know.

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Driving you round the beat at 3-3½ miles an hour,

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as some of those old sadists used to do.

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But I suppose it was a way of life that brought you into contact

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with people, in a way that, perhaps, it wouldn't do so much today.

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Yes, it did.

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And that was the most valuable part of it all.

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And the other thing is, of course, that it's a hardening process.

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I don't say it makes you into a bully, it removes physical fear,

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which is very useful indeed.

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And if somebody says, "I'll clock you," you're not frightened.

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I mean, it may be that he is going to clock you.

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It may be he's going to knock you down.

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It may be he's going to produce a great, big black eye.

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But you've had a black eye before, at boxing, and things like this.

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You're not physically frightened, which I think is a good thing.

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And you reckoned the police helped you, being a policeman helped you?

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Oh, I know it did.

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I know it did because, at school, it was possible, at times,

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for me to be bullied.

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I hit back, on instructions from my father.

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And I was threatened to be taken to the headmaster for bullying, myself!

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Yes, it makes you altogether more self-reliant and less fearful.

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-And more generally secure in outlook, I think.

-Mm.

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And before that, the mental health job.

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I mean, did you actually have contact with...

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Was that an interest or was it merely a branch of the civil service?

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I was doctor's clerk in a mental hospital

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and I was working with patients most of the time, with doctors,

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and I was frequently on the wards.

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In your teens, you see, that's a very morbid experience.

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Again, it teaches you a terrible amount about life and about people.

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And the fact that the people they call insane are, in fact,

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ordinary people with just one little kink, one little twist,

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one little oddity.

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I wouldn't have missed that. I wouldn't have missed either.

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But I wouldn't want to have spent as long as I did in either, really.

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Because you were in there four years.

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Four years and 11 years in the police force.

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Things change now at a vast rate.

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I remember talking to my mother not long before she died.

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She was saying when she was married there was no radio, no television.

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No internal combustion engine, no motorcars. No aircraft.

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And she lived to look at television and see a man land on the moon.

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All right, it's trite, I know.

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But it does show just what has happened to us.

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-And how difficult, understandably difficult, it is for many people to adjust.

-Mm.

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I don't know about you. You may master computers.

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But I stand in utter awe of computers.

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And yet I go round to my friends' houses

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and find their 10-year-olds putting computers together with DIY kits!

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And, you know, one never knows

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whether to stay an old square or try to live up to it or...

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You've mentioned your father a couple of times.

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What did he do? What was he like?

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He was the cemetery registrar at Basingstoke.

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He was a terribly good mechanic and he was tutored in diesel engines

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by Dr Diesel himself, of which he was very proud.

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It was a shame that...

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He did that, you see, to get a house for himself and my mother,

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and a secure income before he went to the First World War.

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And, er...

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He was very small. Very neat. Very capable. Superb with his hands.

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He could do anything in the house.

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Furnish the house in oak.

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He used to mend our shoes.

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Change the fuses. Do the plumbing.

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And the carpentry. Do all the repairs about the house.

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And, in addition, feed us from the allotment.

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Of course, he worked himself to death.

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He just worked so hard to keep the family going on a small income

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that, when he retired, there wasn't very much left.

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He was a very sweet, gentle, loving, indulgent man.

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He and my mother were just so wonderful.

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The poverty never mattered. It never occurred to me.

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I only stand back and look now and realise how poor we were.

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And I'm amazed that we were so incredibly happy as a family,

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-how well we understood one another.

-Mm. There were just the three of you?

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Yes. Yes.

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The doctor, I believe, recommended my mother to have another child.

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And she said, "Yes, I would, Dr Bethel, if I could afford it."

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And it really was like that.

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She was a very capable woman.

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She was the local Liberal agent and did succeed,

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the only one who ever did,

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the only agent who ever got a Liberal in for Basingstoke.

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It sounds as though your relationship with them

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continued to be really close.

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I mean, you asked your mother her opinion about the politics and

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your father's reaction was, you know, there was a lot of communication...

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We were always terribly close, yes.

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I loved them dearly. I was desperately grateful to them.

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Still am.

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It's about the most important thing people do for other people, isn't it?

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Yes.

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And these other... Well, let me ask you,

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are there decisions that you've actually regretted?

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Things that you wished you had done?

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As they say, that's a good question.

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There ought to be.

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I'm trying, as I've never thought of this before,

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but what I suppose is that,

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once I make a decision, I accept it,

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and I don't gripe if the dice fall the other way.

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I've been lucky, you see. Desperately lucky in many ways.

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Unlucky in a few.

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A few unimportant ones.

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To think that the cemetery keeper's boy

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was going to be a commentator, a poet, an author.

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Even be conversed with by you.

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It's a pretty heady thought, you know, that...

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It's one that you appreciate more than

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if you've been born into some kind of privilege.

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Sometimes you tell yourself you've done it yourself but you know,

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really, that there's a vast element of luck in it,

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of being in the right place at the right time

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and doing the right thing that was warranted at the right time.

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I'm sure there are 50 better commentators then me

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about the place who are not doing commentary.

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And, uh, I was there when it happened.

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But I had a feeling also that

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you were quite ambitious to do well in something.

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I mean, you said about various things that, at that point, you saw

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you couldn't do any more and weren't going to be good enough at it.

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I think, wouldn't you say, you wanted to do something really well.

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-Yes, I did.

-Or some things really well.

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But I wasn't looking for something to do well.

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I became interested in things and tried to do well at them,

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which I think is a different matter.

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I didn't want success at any price. I wanted...

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I wanted to do what I've done,

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which was earn my living doing the things I've loved.

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You see so few people who are really happy in their work.

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Decent, nice, fundamentally mentally contented chaps will tell you

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they're happy in their job but they're not really.

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The job doesn't satisfy. It doesn't please them.

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It doesn't make them terribly proud.

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It's rarely a thing...

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It's rarely doing something that,

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if they weren't doing it professionally, they'd do as a hobby.

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That's right. There are not many of those.

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And, for us, we've both been fortunate in that way.

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Yes, I think it might have taken a lot of persuasion to ask you

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to refuse the England captaincy(!)

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It would have taken a lot to stop me becoming a commentator once

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I had the chance of it.

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Or a Guardian cricket correspondent.

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Or almost all the other things I've ever been.

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Desperately lucky. Right time, right place.

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Not only were you a cemetery keeper's son,

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but you were, as you've already said...

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You failed your school certificate.

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-I mean, you didn't have a very...

-Spectacularly.

-Spectacular, was it?

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Well, I mean, the one subject I would have passed

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and might have got a credit in, which was geography,

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I left halfway through the paper, knowing I'd done enough to pass.

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I went to see Reading play in a cup tie

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and, for that reason, they turned me down and failed me

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in geography, which I always thought was a dirty trick.

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But I took it after I'd left school, you see.

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I left school in rebellion.

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Yes. Why was that?

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What happened at school? What was your school?

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It was Queen Mary School, Basingstoke,

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which was a little grammar school of 125 boys.

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Tough and hard, with a Prussian headmaster

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who enjoyed wielding the cane.

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We looked each other in the eye very early on.

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I think he thought he would beat me into submission.

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I had more whacks than anybody else in our form.

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You used to touch your toes, whip your coat-tails up your back

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and, out of the hem of his gown, he pulled this cane,

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which was as thick as my thumb, and four feet long.

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He always used to cane at the washbasins,

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because there it echoed all round the school.

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And the bruises lasted for about a fortnight.

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Red the first night, gradually going black, and, er...

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..you'd take a three or four and stand up and look him in the eyes.

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I never had a six.

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I never did anything quite bad enough to deserve that.

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I never saw anybody who kept consciousness after

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he had one of Percival's sixes.

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They would fall on their faces or stagger out and

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the people in their form would catch them.

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Take them out and run their head under the tap in the basins.

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But he enjoyed it, poor fellow,

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and he had asthma so you can only feel sorry for him.

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But it set you against the whole school process?

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Well, I had friends there and some staff that I respected immensely.

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But it set me against him, you know, so that I had to draw level,

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even though I couldn't afford it,

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to the extent of smoking the same expensive cigarettes.

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I did put it straight years afterwards.

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When, bewilderingly, he turned up at our old boys' dinner

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and they asked me to propose his health.

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I said, "Me? You know what I thought of him."

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And the chairman said, "Yes, say it." And I said it.

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And I still don't know whether it was cruel or deserved.

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Or valedictory or whether he hadn't asked for it,

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and deserved to know before he died.

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If he's listening now, I meant it.

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John, you've written at least one hymn, maybe you've written more.

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And that wasn't all that long ago, was it?

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-Oh, it's a long time ago.

-Was it?

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Oh, yes.

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Late '40s, I should think.

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I wrote three or four hymns for the BBC hymnbook,

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one of which is pretty constantly reprinted.

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More reprinted than anything else I've ever written, I think.

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-Is it about ploughing?

-Yes, harvest festival.

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Yes, anything to turn an honest penny.

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Presumably there was some belief behind it.

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Yes, I was brought up to God.

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In church I was brought up, I suppose,

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as what you'd call a practising Christian.

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The loss of my eldest son hit... hit that pretty hard.

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It's all very well for people to tell me

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about it being all for the best and things like this.

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That matters, I suppose, to me, more than anything else at the time.

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It hasn't changed much over the years, except other things have joined it.

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I rate my family higher than anything else in the world.

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Too many of them gone.

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You see, you either belong to the club of "It happens to me"

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or the club of "It doesn't happen to me" and...

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never the twain you shall meet.

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That's a corny thing to say, but it's true.

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They really don't understand each other

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and neither can explain to the other, really.

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You can't win 'em all, you know.

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Luck over some things, and not over others.

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That's pretty corny and trite, too.

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And I needn't have said it and I probably shouldn't have said it.

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-Talk about something else.

-Yeah. What shall we talk about?

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I must say,

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filming with beaujolais is much better than just filming,

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-don't you think?

-It is, yeah.

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Not the connoisseur's drink, but the ordinary chap's drink.

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In the old bistro glasses, the 19th-century bistro glasses.

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-They're lovely glasses.

-They're not delicate, sensitive, or anything like that.

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The glasses they use...

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Where did you get them? You've got a lot of them, haven't you?

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Yes. Bought them in Burgundy from Christopher Fielden.

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Oh, and from a lady called Lesley Taylor in Cirencester,

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who used to buy 'em a lot in France and bring 'em back and sell 'em.

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You simply don't find them any more.

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It's a wonder they're not all gone.

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Thank goodness they bounce if you have reasonable carpets.

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And sometimes off the parquet, too. They're pretty solid.

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That's probably done no good at all to the microphone.

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-The table's all right, though.

-They are solid. The table's used to it.

0:20:440:20:49

Yes, we touched on it before,

0:21:000:21:01

whether you'd ever worked too hard for the family.

0:21:010:21:05

And one of the aspects of that was being a professional,

0:21:050:21:08

wasn't it, and doing jobs properly and not turning things down.

0:21:080:21:11

Yes. I think I'm not so reluctant now.

0:21:110:21:14

You see, for a long time as a freelancer, you think,

0:21:140:21:18

"If I refuse this job, I may never get another."

0:21:180:21:21

And especially when I left the BBC

0:21:210:21:24

and left the shelter of a permanent, pensionable job

0:21:240:21:29

and set out into the wilderness that my father so dreaded,

0:21:290:21:36

there was then a time when I accepted anything,

0:21:360:21:39

right, left and centre. If it was work, I took it.

0:21:390:21:43

And for years, of course, you never took a holiday.

0:21:430:21:47

But, er...

0:21:470:21:49

But Maurice Eddleston cured that.

0:21:490:21:52

Turned up one day and he said, "When are you two going on holiday, then?"

0:21:520:21:56

So Valerie looked the other way and I said,

0:21:560:21:58

"Well, I don't think we are, Maurice." He said, "Why not?"

0:21:580:22:01

"Take the girl for a holiday."

0:22:010:22:02

I said, "But, Maurice, you know, there's so much work to do and if you're a freelancer..."

0:22:020:22:06

He said, "I'm a freelancer. We're going on holiday."

0:22:060:22:11

"Why don't you make him take you somewhere?" he said to Valerie.

0:22:110:22:14

She said, "Well, you did say you'd take me to Venice."

0:22:140:22:17

So I said, "OK, we'll go to Venice.

0:22:170:22:19

"And what's more, we'll go on the Orient express."

0:22:190:22:22

So I rapidly accepted a job to write an account of a Test tour.

0:22:250:22:31

Dashed this down. Every night I filled it in,

0:22:330:22:36

kept the job up-to-date, so that as soon as the cricket season ended,

0:22:360:22:40

we could dive off and we got on this train at Waterloo, er, Victoria.

0:22:400:22:44

Oh, dear. Oh, dear. Oh, dear.

0:22:460:22:47

This was the romantic dream of all time.

0:22:470:22:51

This was the Orient Express.

0:22:510:22:54

They took the diner off at Paris on the way out.

0:22:540:22:57

We went on the way out in a cabin where there wasn't room

0:22:570:23:01

for two people to stand up at the same time,

0:23:010:23:04

nor even one to stand bolt upright.

0:23:040:23:07

On the way out, we were next door to the toilet,

0:23:070:23:13

which reeked to high heaven of ammonia.

0:23:130:23:16

On the way back, we were at the opposite end with half a mile walk to the toilet.

0:23:160:23:21

And I'm not sure which was worse.

0:23:210:23:23

And on the way back, they took the diner off at Milan.

0:23:230:23:27

But the exciting thing was that to eat,

0:23:270:23:32

you bought off these trolleys on the railway platforms.

0:23:320:23:35

And, in Switzerland, you could get off and you had 40 minutes for a meal at the border.

0:23:350:23:40

In a railway buffet. And a railway buffet in this country means

0:23:400:23:45

everything a railway buffet means in this country, but there it doesn't.

0:23:450:23:49

And so often, you know, you go to a French town

0:23:490:23:53

and the best restaurant in the town is the railway buffet.

0:23:530:23:56

And this was like that, or it tasted like it, in Switzerland.

0:23:560:24:00

And we had the most magnificent time in Venice.

0:24:000:24:04

And, you know, this is where I vacillate. I'm so feeble.

0:24:040:24:09

I don't know which is the finest city in the world.

0:24:090:24:12

Whether it's London, Paris, Vienna, Venice, Rome.

0:24:120:24:16

Bordeaux's got to get pretty closely into the running.

0:24:180:24:23

And Beaune, the walled, boozy city of Burgundy.

0:24:230:24:27

Or Beaujeu, the little forgotten town of Beaujolais. I don't know.

0:24:270:24:31

Barcelona, the Ramblas.

0:24:330:24:36

I don't think... Well, I don't know.

0:24:380:24:41

San Francisco.

0:24:410:24:43

But, on the whole, not many good cities outside Europe.

0:24:430:24:46

Not for the European, I don't think.

0:24:460:24:49

-Sydney takes a beating.

-Pardon?

-Sydney takes a bit of beating.

0:24:490:24:52

Trouble is, it's full of Australians.

0:24:520:24:54

Well, there are exceptions.

0:24:540:24:57

Yes. There are exceptions, actually.

0:24:570:24:59

There's some very nice Australians.

0:24:590:25:02

And Sydney is, in many ways...

0:25:020:25:06

..I suppose, the most attractive of really modern cities.

0:25:090:25:13

If you can put up with the taxi drivers.

0:25:130:25:17

You had your own...

0:25:170:25:19

What was your first experience with Sydney taxi drivers?

0:25:190:25:22

The first time I ever hailed a cab and he pulled up.

0:25:220:25:25

Being used to London, I put my hand on the handle of the back door

0:25:250:25:29

and the driver looked up at me and said, "Do I bleeding stink, then?"

0:25:290:25:34

You get in front with the driver in Sydney.

0:25:350:25:38

Which I'm always happy to do anywhere, anyway, but I...

0:25:380:25:42

I was over-accustomed to London.

0:25:420:25:44

The trouble is, if you get in the front seat,

0:25:440:25:46

and especially in a Test series,

0:25:460:25:49

"You bleeding Poms haven't got a chance, have you, eh?"

0:25:490:25:52

"We'll mop ya, mate."

0:25:520:25:54

Yes, there can be no greater pleasure than a tour of Australia

0:25:570:26:01

with a winning English side, especially if they've lost the first Test match. Oh!

0:26:010:26:07

Glorious. Because they are not the world's greatest losers.

0:26:070:26:12

They do melt away a bit.

0:26:120:26:14

Mind you, they melt away all over the place, don't they?

0:26:140:26:17

I've seen them melt away in Kent

0:26:170:26:19

when things are not going well, and in a much different style.

0:26:190:26:22

They've a rather nicely spoken, smiling style when things go well,

0:26:220:26:25

but they melt away quietly.

0:26:250:26:28

Ah, not like the Australians, Mike.

0:26:280:26:30

You must admit, not like the Australians.

0:26:300:26:32

Nobody gets so bitter as the Australians.

0:26:320:26:35

Nobody has ever been on the receiving end of that

0:26:350:26:38

-more desperately than you except, perhaps, Harold Larwood and Douglas Jardine.

-Yes.

0:26:380:26:43

To go there and win is great but you come back with scars on the soul.

0:26:430:26:48

Yeah, well... Mind you, the biggest opposition and hostility was when

0:26:480:26:52

we in fact lost the time after, because we'd one the year before.

0:26:520:26:56

And then the Packer players came back.

0:26:560:26:59

And we didn't agree to all the detail that they wanted and I seemed to be,

0:26:590:27:02

to them, the person who made all the decisions as to what rules we played under and everything.

0:27:020:27:07

And it was quite an interesting, interesting tour.

0:27:070:27:10

You never did a braver or better, or calmer thing in your life than that.

0:27:100:27:16

I must say, I boiled with indignation for you

0:27:160:27:20

and was overwhelmed with admiration that you could put up with it.

0:27:200:27:24

-I couldn't have put up with it.

-Yeah.

0:27:240:27:27

-I lost my temper once.

-Perhaps you couldn't buy a machine gun.

0:27:270:27:32

I met Bob Hawke there who, towards the end of the tour...

0:27:320:27:35

-The new Prime Minister.

-The new Prime Minister, who told me... He said that he had a lot of...

0:27:350:27:40

He was very interested to meet me, and he was a very nice, pleasant man.

0:27:400:27:43

And he told me that he thought I didn't quite handle the Ockers as well as I might have.

0:27:430:27:48

And that they weren't all as bad as I probably thought.

0:27:480:27:52

In fact, quite a lot of them voted for him, he said. HE LAUGHS

0:27:520:27:56

Yes, the Ocker is an unfortunate symbol that too many of them have adopted, you know.

0:27:560:28:03

People like Dennis Lillee and Marsh, Rod Marsh,

0:28:030:28:10

-who almost welcomed the concept of the Ocker image and it's...

-Yeah.

-It's not nice.

0:28:100:28:16

I'd take Marsh out of that category a bit. Put Ian Chappell in.

0:28:160:28:19

But I'd take Marsh out a bit.

0:28:190:28:21

I mean, about Rod Marsh, he never appealed...

0:28:210:28:23

Occasionally he got angry if he thought they'd been done.

0:28:230:28:27

But, generally speaking, he never appealed unless he thought it was out.

0:28:270:28:31

I used to get great fun out of him, because somebody would say,

0:28:310:28:35

"Ah, you're being tough again, Rod." And I'd say, "But he's not tough.

0:28:350:28:40

"He's a dear, nice, sweet, cuddly teddy bear."

0:28:400:28:44

"Get off, mate!" This was the one thing he couldn't stand.

0:28:440:28:48

He'd take almost anything else. But not being described as a nice, cuddly teddy bear of a man.

0:28:480:28:52

I suppose not many people would, really!

0:28:520:28:55

No, let's let Rod off,

0:28:580:29:00

if only on account of that wonderful calling back when he said not out.

0:29:000:29:05

Randall? Yeah. I believe Greg Chappell

0:29:050:29:07

was so fed up, he went off to fine leg for a couple of overs.

0:29:070:29:11

Took no part in the running of the match but, yes,

0:29:110:29:14

I think Rod Marsh is...

0:29:140:29:16

I mean, off the field, he bristles, doesn't he?

0:29:160:29:18

He doesn't shave and he bristles on the field.

0:29:180:29:20

And there's a nice story of him with Derek Randall and Randall coming in to bat one day,

0:29:200:29:24

I think in England, in a Test match, and saying...

0:29:240:29:27

You know, they never could understand Randall.

0:29:270:29:29

Well, a lot of people can't understand him!

0:29:290:29:31

But the Australians could understand him less than the rest of us.

0:29:310:29:34

And Derek came in and said, " 'Ey oop, Marshy, how you goin', then?"

0:29:340:29:38

And Rod Marsh didn't say a thing. "Are we not chatting, then, today?" says Randall.

0:29:380:29:42

And Marsh eventually says, "What do you think this is, a...garden party?"

0:29:420:29:48

But he was all right. And off the field, quiet and a very warm man.

0:29:480:29:53

Yes.

0:29:560:29:57

I've known some splendid Australians.

0:29:590:30:02

-Especially the nice, tame ones who settled in England, like Jack...

-HE LAUGHS

0:30:020:30:07

..like Col McCool.

0:30:070:30:09

Bill Alley's still here.

0:30:110:30:13

Always had that elegant, dignified Sydney side.

0:30:130:30:17

What a good player, my goodness.

0:30:190:30:21

What a loss he was, for years, to top-class cricket.

0:30:210:30:24

Yes. They do make me laugh sometimes, but not always.

0:30:260:30:30

Sometimes they make me very cross, indeed.

0:30:300:30:34

They don't lose well. That's...

0:30:360:30:39

Well, again, in my experience, Rod Marsh would be the first

0:30:390:30:43

at the end of a Test match we'd won to come and shake everyone's hand

0:30:430:30:48

and say, "Well played," and, you know, be there.

0:30:480:30:51

What I always remember and, I'm not always proud of our reactions,

0:30:510:30:56

especially the reactions of our football supporters, but, in 1948,

0:30:560:31:03

when Bradman's side rolled over us like a steamroller,

0:31:030:31:09

and there was the outside chance to win at Headingley,

0:31:090:31:14

and we missed it, we dropped two crucial catches.

0:31:140:31:17

We didn't quite have the side to do it.

0:31:170:31:19

Above all, I don't think we believed we could win.

0:31:190:31:22

And then they came to the Oval.

0:31:220:31:25

And they won. And the cheers, the farewell for Bradman

0:31:250:31:28

and the cheers for the side were so, so generous,

0:31:280:31:33

I'd never been prouder of an English crowd of any sort in my life.

0:31:330:31:38

And they haven't often shown us that kind of generosity.

0:31:380:31:44

It's hard, if you've been trying, and you're combative

0:31:490:31:52

and you're competitive and you're a good performer.

0:31:520:31:55

It's very, very hard to lose easy.

0:31:550:31:59

I remember that...

0:31:590:32:02

Was it the '57 West Indies side that lost and, suddenly,

0:32:020:32:06

after the Oval test, they all disappeared.

0:32:060:32:08

There was no grumble, no complaint.

0:32:080:32:11

But when everybody thought we were going to have a party now,

0:32:110:32:14

we can fetch the bottle and they'd gone.

0:32:140:32:16

Well, I didn't find the Australian players like this.

0:32:160:32:19

-The public, perhaps, but not the players.

-No.

0:32:190:32:22

And another thing I will always remember is that

0:32:240:32:29

great West Indian win of 1950.

0:32:290:32:32

You know, the Ramadhin and Valentine team.

0:32:320:32:34

And how an originally stunned English public,

0:32:340:32:39

and, by heaven, they were stunned, read the reports that West Indies

0:32:390:32:43

had won so many series over there, but they'd never won any here.

0:32:430:32:48

And then they came and...

0:32:480:32:51

I'm not sure, moved as the West Indian spectators were at Lord's

0:32:510:32:56

when they coined Ramadhin and Valentine and all this,

0:32:560:33:01

I'm not sure that, in many respects, the English spectators,

0:33:010:33:05

-once they'd got over their surprise, weren't even more impressed.

-Mm.

0:33:050:33:10

They were a funny couple, weren't they?

0:33:100:33:13

Those two on the boat over, the rest of the team spent

0:33:130:33:16

much of the time teaching them to sign their autographs.

0:33:160:33:19

They said it didn't matter whether they could bowl or not,

0:33:190:33:22

but in England, they got to sign their autographs.

0:33:220:33:25

Garfield Sobers said to Charlie Davies when he came over,

0:33:260:33:31

"Charlie," he said, "if you're going to be an English county cricketer,

0:33:310:33:35

"you won't qualify until you've eaten half a ton of lettuce."

0:33:350:33:38

You must have had enough county ground lunches to know how deadly true that is.

0:33:410:33:45

Good ones were... I mean, not true at Lord's, though.

0:33:450:33:47

-No.

-Marvellous lunches there.

-Lord's were very good.

-Very good.

0:33:470:33:51

I always liked that story of Ted Dexter saying,

0:33:510:33:55

when he was Test captain, "Why do we always have to give them this hot

0:33:550:33:59

"tomato soup and things like this in hot weather?"

0:33:590:34:02

"Why don't we give a nice, well-chilled, cold consomme?"

0:34:020:34:07

So they duly served this and the Australians, to a man,

0:34:070:34:10

complained that the soup was cold!

0:34:100:34:12

I've always cherished that.

0:34:150:34:17

I've never found it a necessity, funny.

0:34:170:34:21

You see, I've worked in radio and television and never known,

0:34:210:34:25

really, very much about either.

0:34:250:34:27

I remember when I was a little boy and my father made

0:34:270:34:29

our first crystal set, listening to a banjo in the earphones.

0:34:290:34:34

But then, you see, I used to go out in the evenings,

0:34:340:34:37

playing cricket, playing football.

0:34:370:34:39

Playing bridge in my bridge-playing phase.

0:34:400:34:45

Then courting.

0:34:450:34:47

Then leaving home and going into digs

0:34:470:34:50

when they didn't want you in their room, listening to their radio.

0:34:500:34:53

And then I married, but then came the war.

0:34:530:34:58

So you didn't much look in or listen in.

0:34:580:35:01

And, after the war, it was a question of working,

0:35:010:35:06

going to London and being all eyes and ears for London.

0:35:060:35:10

And then, this influence of the French, so I've never really

0:35:110:35:16

much listened to radio or looked at television, except the Today programme

0:35:160:35:21

in the mornings which is the ideal bathroom compassion.

0:35:210:35:26

I mean, you can shave, shampoo,

0:35:260:35:30

think, or anything you like.

0:35:300:35:33

Stand on your head while that's on. I find it infinitely entertaining.

0:35:330:35:38

But, otherwise, that and the 5.40 news.

0:35:380:35:42

And that's it.

0:35:420:35:44

For the rest, you know, work through the day

0:35:440:35:46

and dine through the evening.

0:35:460:35:49

Do you use a video? I mean, do you ever think there's something

0:35:500:35:53

you'd really like to be able to see at your leisure?

0:35:530:35:56

I often think that, but I always forget to do it.

0:35:560:35:59

It's rather like that silly story about the Irish video recorder

0:35:590:36:05

that records programmes you don't like and plays them back when you're out.

0:36:050:36:10

I've always thought that Ideal arrangement.

0:36:100:36:14

No, I ought to.

0:36:140:36:17

I looked at the series of John Betjeman programmes.

0:36:170:36:19

I did remember to do that quite faithfully.

0:36:190:36:23

But that's the only series I've really ever looked at.

0:36:230:36:26

-He was a good friend of yours, wasn't he? Or he is.

-Yes.

0:36:260:36:30

Er...immense influence on me.

0:36:300:36:33

I mean, I think I would never have tried to write poetry

0:36:330:36:36

if it hadn't been for him.

0:36:360:36:38

And the first anthology I ever made, with George Hamilton,

0:36:380:36:42

was based on the Betjeman topographical poetic theme.

0:36:420:36:48

And my middle son's godfather,

0:36:480:36:54

I see him from time to time,

0:36:540:36:56

he's a very pretty thirst in champagne in his old age.

0:36:560:37:01

He messed about with whisky and things like that at one time.

0:37:010:37:05

But now I believe he actually knows the grande marque one from the other

0:37:050:37:09

and you've got to be very careful what you take there for him to drink.

0:37:090:37:13

But always a funny man with an immense streak of sincerity

0:37:130:37:19

and depth of feeling.

0:37:190:37:22

And as independent a thinker as I suppose there's been in this century in Britain.

0:37:220:37:27

-And you shared quite a few of his views, didn't you, as well?

-Yes.

0:37:270:37:32

I mean, a lot of your poetry was about English towns and places,

0:37:320:37:36

and crafts and...

0:37:360:37:38

Yes. Yes, indeed.

0:37:380:37:39

As I say, an immense influence on me in that respect.

0:37:390:37:43

I only wish I'd been as good as he is.

0:37:430:37:47

I imagine that it also actually influenced what you did do creatively

0:37:470:37:52

-which was, amongst other things, broadcast on cricket.

-Yes.

0:37:520:37:56

You see, the good poet, in his imagery, defines.

0:37:560:38:02

He describes precisely. He doesn't say, "That was a good stroke.

0:38:020:38:08

"This is a pretty cricket ground. This is a good-looking man."

0:38:080:38:12

He says what is a poised, graceful, well-timed,

0:38:120:38:17

powerful - or whatever - stroke.

0:38:170:38:20

"This is an old-fashioned looking ground, a leafy, tree-y ground

0:38:200:38:25

"with an Edwardian pavilion,

0:38:250:38:27

"or a Victorian pavilion, or a modern pavilion."

0:38:270:38:31

And I think if you're trying to describe things to people,

0:38:310:38:35

that's the sort of thing you've got to say in a commentary.

0:38:350:38:38

Say what you see.

0:38:380:38:40

You see, it's easy to be a commentator

0:38:400:38:42

and bring out statistics.

0:38:420:38:44

And a terrific number of people are vastly interested in statistics.

0:38:440:38:47

You know, he wants so many runs to do so and so.

0:38:470:38:50

And I always had Bill Frindall to tell me that. But, for me,

0:38:500:38:53

it was in through the eyes and out through the mouth and...

0:38:530:38:58

-Something happened in between!

-There was a digestion process, yes,

0:38:580:39:02

because there was an editing process.

0:39:020:39:05

But you say what you see.

0:39:050:39:08

-Every man sees something different.

-Mm-hm.

0:39:080:39:12

In fact, in my younger days, I had been known to observe

0:39:120:39:16

attractive young women walking round the ground and that type of thing.

0:39:160:39:20

In your younger days only, of course!

0:39:200:39:22

But I... Well, this is a big topic but, I mean,

0:39:250:39:30

I read that somebody said of you, in your early days at the BBC,

0:39:300:39:34

that you had a superior mind and a vulgar voice.

0:39:340:39:38

That's right.

0:39:380:39:41

And I wondered if people tried to change you from being what you were.

0:39:410:39:46

Well, I tried to change my voice once.

0:39:460:39:49

On the Thursday, I was producing a programme and Val Dyall came in.

0:39:500:39:55

Valentine Dyall.

0:39:550:39:56

And after a bit he said, "John."

0:39:580:40:01

I said, "Yes?"

0:40:010:40:03

He said, "Are you trying to do something to your voice?"

0:40:030:40:07

I said, "Well, I'm trying, you know, not to sound too much like a country bumpkin.

0:40:070:40:12

"You know, I'd like to get onto a sort of standard southern English."

0:40:120:40:16

He said, "You fool! Everybody in this studio can speak that."

0:40:160:40:20

"You're the only one who can speak authentic Hampshire."

0:40:200:40:23

He said, "Don't, for God's sake, throw that away."

0:40:230:40:26

And I thought, "Well, I suppose he's right and it's going to seem a bit of an effort."

0:40:260:40:30

You do it anyway, you know. I went back home once, I remember.

0:40:300:40:34

I'd been to the police training school and I'd just come back,

0:40:340:40:40

so I'd been to the Birmingham police training school for the Southampton force,

0:40:400:40:45

and I'd been back about a month.

0:40:450:40:47

So I'd been away from home for four months.

0:40:470:40:50

My mother said, "You better go out and see the men."

0:40:500:40:55

And these were the men who were grass-cutting outside, you see.

0:40:550:40:58

So I went out and said hello and how were they.

0:40:580:41:00

And they quizzed me about Southampton.

0:41:000:41:03

Was it true there were trains - they meant trams - running through the streets.

0:41:030:41:07

These were very old men.

0:41:070:41:09

I said, "Yes, it was." And this went on and on.

0:41:090:41:12

And after a bit, one of them looked me and he said,

0:41:120:41:15

"And what be this here London talk you been putting on, then, eh?"

0:41:150:41:19

HE LAUGHS

0:41:190:41:22

Who'd have thought that, 50 years ago, mine was a London talk.

0:41:220:41:28

But, er...

0:41:300:41:32

But the first recording I ever made,

0:41:330:41:37

I did a live programme first,

0:41:370:41:40

then I was asked to come on Country Magazine.

0:41:400:41:43

And we knew there was a repeat going out at half past five in the morning overseas.

0:41:430:41:49

It took me a lot to get out of bed at that time.

0:41:490:41:52

We got up, got out and switched this on.

0:41:520:41:55

And I can imagine my face fell. I said, "Oh, dear. Oh, dear."

0:41:570:42:02

My wife said, "What's the matter?"

0:42:020:42:04

I said, "Well, that's the script I did.

0:42:040:42:08

"That's the script, but they've got this country chap reading it."

0:42:080:42:12

So she threw her head back laughing and said, "That's you, you fool!"

0:42:120:42:17

I'd never heard my recorded voice. I never dreamt it was like that.

0:42:170:42:21

I think it's a shock for everyone, isn't it? The first time you hear it.

0:42:210:42:25

But this seemed to me to mean I was ruined forever.

0:42:250:42:27

I was never going to get this career in broadcasting I'd come to dream about.

0:42:270:42:31

But, with a bit of good advice, and with your own personality,

0:42:340:42:38

you stuck with it and you cut your own path, really, didn't you?

0:42:380:42:41

It was a new thing, what you were doing, wasn't it?

0:42:410:42:44

-Certainly in sport.

-It was in a way, yes.

0:42:440:42:47

You see, Howard Marshall had done it.

0:42:470:42:50

Howard Marshall - we used to play back the discs sometimes - a bit behind the play.

0:42:500:42:54

There'd never been, I think, previously,

0:42:540:42:59

an attempt at precise visual description.

0:42:590:43:04

He used to read out the square number on a soccer ground.

0:43:040:43:08

But you didn't get any idea. You didn't, it seems to me...

0:43:080:43:12

After I went on the instructional staff,

0:43:120:43:14

I used to get every record I could and play 'em back.

0:43:140:43:18

But I couldn't find that anybody had any immense visual urge.

0:43:180:43:25

I mean, you got facts and details of play

0:43:250:43:27

and what was happening at the event.

0:43:270:43:30

Heaven knows, that's more important, but...

0:43:300:43:33

I don't know. It's just your own particular bent, I suppose.

0:43:350:43:39

You expose your own mind and you never do it more than in commentary,

0:43:400:43:45

when you're speaking absolutely ad-lib

0:43:450:43:48

and you don't know what's going to happen in the next second.

0:43:480:43:52

It's got to come out and...

0:43:520:43:54

The funny thing was, I used to find that

0:43:550:44:00

if I was writing about a day's play, I tended not to remember

0:44:000:44:06

the play that I'd done a commentary on, because that went in and out.

0:44:060:44:11

It's funny. You retained other things.

0:44:110:44:13

But you had to cast your mind back. It was a deliberate effort

0:44:130:44:16

to pick up what you'd done the commentary on.

0:44:160:44:19

It's almost as if you'd purged yourself of it.

0:44:190:44:23

-It's about as immediate as you can get, isn't it?

-yes.

0:44:230:44:27

Yes. I always used to think if you could get the man caught at the wicket

0:44:270:44:32

before the crowd shouted, you were up with the ball.

0:44:320:44:35

Yes, I rather liked those...

0:44:370:44:39

Sometimes something I find myself doing sometimes is,

0:44:390:44:42

where there's a photograph in a cricket book, of a dismissal,

0:44:420:44:45

to see the beginnings of recognition in the crowd...

0:44:450:44:48

-Yes.

-They're just...

-Just starting to...

0:44:480:44:50

Yes, that's right. And the stump's by then on the ground.

0:44:500:44:54

-Or the man's already started to walk.

-Yeah.

0:44:540:44:56

Yes, it's funny. There's nothing in cricket, to my mind,

0:44:590:45:04

not even a spectacular six,

0:45:040:45:06

-there's nothing so exciting as the fall of the wicket.

-Hm, I agree.

0:45:060:45:10

And when a side is running through another's batting

0:45:100:45:13

and wickets are going down quickly, and you hear this almost,

0:45:130:45:17

almost like the baying of a pack of hounds every time a wicket falls.

0:45:170:45:20

And they're hounding the side that's being bowled out.

0:45:200:45:23

I often think that sides are bowled out for small totals

0:45:230:45:28

almost psychologically, after the first three or four wickets are down.

0:45:280:45:32

Then you can feel the crowd waiting to roar again.

0:45:320:45:37

It used to be like this at the Oval when Bedser, Loader, Surridge,

0:45:370:45:44

Lock, Laker, with Eric Bedser in reserve, were bowling out sides,

0:45:440:45:50

when they first started to win the championship before the crowds dwindled.

0:45:500:45:55

We used to go there, almost like the crowd at a gladiatorial contest,

0:45:550:45:59

to watch the other side torn to pieces.

0:45:590:46:02

Well, that reminds me of the famous '74/75 series in Australia

0:46:020:46:07

when Lillee and Thomson demolished us on some bad wickets.

0:46:070:46:11

The England players used to refer, towards the end of the series,

0:46:110:46:15

and I think this wasn't just healthy hangdog humour,

0:46:150:46:19

they used to refer to the seat reserved for the next batsmen in as the condemned cell.

0:46:190:46:24

I think they got the message pretty well.

0:46:250:46:27

Yes.

0:46:270:46:29

There's no doubt that communicates to a crowd more than anything else,

0:46:290:46:34

the destruction of the opponents.

0:46:340:46:37

Hitting a six, all right, spectacular. Beautiful.

0:46:370:46:40

We've seen, you know, that glorious stroke onto the roof of the...

0:46:400:46:47

Lord's pavilion, by Hughes.

0:46:470:46:50

But there's nothing quite to compare with the bowling rout of a side.

0:46:500:46:57

-Shall we talk about South Africa?

-Yes. Why not?

0:46:590:47:03

I mean, we got to know each other partly at the time of

0:47:030:47:07

the D'Oliviera affair, as it could be called, in 1969.

0:47:070:47:12

And, of course, your experience of South Africa, and your contacts

0:47:140:47:17

with South Africa, went a long way back before that, didn't they?

0:47:170:47:20

Yes, I went in '48/9 and I was desperately shocked by what I saw there.

0:47:200:47:27

I never dreamt that these things went on.

0:47:270:47:32

I'd heard lip service paid to the awfulness but, you see,

0:47:320:47:36

this was just the time

0:47:360:47:38

when the first nationalist government of Dr Malan was returned.

0:47:380:47:43

And I saw and heard some quite terrible things

0:47:440:47:48

about what happened to ordinary black people there.

0:47:480:47:52

And I didn't know what to do.

0:47:520:47:53

And I still haven't really done much about it.

0:47:530:47:56

I haven't done as much as I ought to have done.

0:47:560:47:59

And, you see, it's so easy, especially for English people,

0:47:590:48:03

especially for cricketers, to go to South Africa

0:48:030:48:06

and not see what goes on because it's not flaunted.

0:48:060:48:09

It's not pushed under their noses.

0:48:090:48:11

You'd have great difficulty in finding a taxi driver, sometimes,

0:48:110:48:15

who would take you to these compounds and, er...

0:48:150:48:19

And I thought, perhaps, I'd done something

0:48:190:48:23

when I helped bring Basil D'Oliviera to this country.

0:48:230:48:26

And I think that did do something that perhaps you can't see.

0:48:260:48:30

It must have made a lot of people convinced

0:48:300:48:33

that their cause wasn't quite lost.

0:48:330:48:36

If one could do it, in a way, he stood for them all.

0:48:360:48:40

But then, you see, there's been a clampdown since.

0:48:400:48:43

A certain amount of liberal thinking,

0:48:430:48:46

and a certain amount of increased repression.

0:48:460:48:50

Old Smuts was so clever. He used to give them a fresh liberty every year.

0:48:500:48:54

I mean, it would've taken 200 years for them to be really free.

0:48:540:48:57

But he didn't impose fresh restrictions and fresh repressions,

0:48:570:49:01

as the nationalist government has done since and this is distressing.

0:49:010:49:05

It's distressing to think about it.

0:49:050:49:07

I don't know what the answer is.

0:49:110:49:12

Except, perhaps, the most appalling one of all,

0:49:120:49:15

that, you know, one can't lay one's tongue to.

0:49:150:49:18

Well, it's going to be explosive in the end,

0:49:200:49:22

I feel all too sure of that.

0:49:220:49:24

It's an important thing you did, to help to be responsible for getting Basil D'Oliviera to come to England.

0:49:280:49:33

How did that happen?

0:49:330:49:35

Well, out of the blue, I got this letter from a young man,

0:49:350:49:39

beautifully written in green ink, terribly courteous correspondence,

0:49:390:49:43

saying how much he loved cricket and how much he'd like to learn

0:49:430:49:46

to be a coach and qualify to be a coach in England

0:49:460:49:50

so that he could go back to South Africa and teach his own people.

0:49:500:49:54

So, I thought I'd never heard of anything much more hopeless, really.

0:49:540:49:59

There was such charm in the letter.

0:50:010:50:03

I went on and replied to him to see what we could work out, you see.

0:50:030:50:06

And, in the end, I said, "Well, how good a player are you?

0:50:060:50:09

"Because I think, if you want to come here, probably you'd only help us as a player."

0:50:090:50:13

He sent me some pretty remarkable statistics of his performances

0:50:130:50:16

for Cape Coloureds and so on.

0:50:160:50:19

And he'd gone as high as he could in cricket, for a Cape Coloured.

0:50:190:50:23

And I really began to give up hope.

0:50:250:50:27

People just couldn't see.

0:50:300:50:33

I mean, if I said, "Look, this chap made 286, so many sixes..."

0:50:330:50:38

They'd say, "Well, it must have been an absolutely plum wicket."

0:50:380:50:42

"Well, in the same match, he took six for 16."

0:50:420:50:44

And they'd say, "Oh, it must have been an awful wicket.

0:50:440:50:47

"Must've been a bad batting side." They wanted it both ways.

0:50:470:50:50

Well, then, Alan Oakman and Pete Sainsbury and Jim Gray

0:50:500:50:55

went and played in a match and they saw him play.

0:50:550:50:57

And they came back and I said, "Well, what's he like?"

0:50:570:51:00

And they said, "Well, he's a very, very gifted player."

0:51:000:51:03

"Very talented. A bit crude."

0:51:030:51:05

"But still, you know, first-class."

0:51:050:51:07

Even then, I couldn't get anywhere and John Kay helped me immensely,

0:51:090:51:14

Manchester Evening News and a Lancashire league expert and player.

0:51:140:51:18

And, all of a sudden, he came to me that his club,

0:51:180:51:21

they'd got rid of Gilchrist and had been trying rather secretly

0:51:210:51:27

to sign on Wes Hall, and, at the last minute, Wes let 'em down.

0:51:270:51:32

So he rang me up and he said, "Look, if your chap wants a job, he can come."

0:51:340:51:39

He suggested a wage figure which was very low.

0:51:390:51:43

Now, this had been going on now for six years.

0:51:430:51:46

Eventually I wrote and said, "Look, the chance has come.

0:51:480:51:51

"I don't think it'll ever come again. I know the money is not good.

0:51:510:51:55

"But if you want to come, you must say yes to this and come."

0:51:550:52:00

He decided to. I made a whip-round in the local village and he came.

0:52:000:52:04

Made a terrible start, poor kid. Couldn't get a run for a month.

0:52:040:52:08

He'd never seen these slow, sodden, muddy wickets. Anything like it.

0:52:080:52:13

And then, all of a sudden, everything came good for him in May, end of May.

0:52:130:52:18

And he actually finished with more runs than Garfield Sobers in that league, in his first season.

0:52:180:52:24

And, I mean...

0:52:240:52:27

if you'd seen - I mean, I almost wept - his amazement

0:52:270:52:31

at sitting down to eat with white people

0:52:310:52:33

in the dining car of the train, at the airport and so on.

0:52:330:52:39

And yet, he kept utter and absolute dignity and good nature.

0:52:390:52:44

And, I think, through all the troubles, probably better than anybody else.

0:52:440:52:48

And, well, as you know, he became a British citizen.

0:52:480:52:53

He played for England. Shook hands with the Queen.

0:52:530:52:57

And he never, to my mind, made a fool of himself,

0:52:570:53:00

which would have been so easy.

0:53:000:53:03

But I just think he behaved with infinite dignity.

0:53:030:53:08

You see, what I think was important about Basil was that

0:53:080:53:12

he gave hope to his own people. Millions of them.

0:53:120:53:15

It isn't going to happen to them but they knew there was hope.

0:53:150:53:18

It was possible, if not for them, for their children. Or their children's children.

0:53:180:53:22

And this was the important thing about him coming here.

0:53:220:53:24

To prove that it wasn't inevitably bondage.

0:53:240:53:27

Mind you, I think anybody else might find it a bit difficult to get out.

0:53:270:53:31

But he did that and he did show them.

0:53:310:53:34

He was not only dignified, he was actually reticent, wasn't he?

0:53:340:53:38

-Yes, he was.

-I mean, I remember feeling I wished he would come out with what he felt about it.

0:53:380:53:44

And I had no idea until recently, after the big row had subsided,

0:53:440:53:51

-just how passionately he always felt.

-My word, he did.

0:53:510:53:54

And people used to try to goad him into exploding about it and he wouldn't.

0:53:540:53:57

This was where the dignity was immense because

0:53:570:54:01

anybody who's lived under that kind of bondage has got to hate it.

0:54:010:54:04

And he never showed that hate.

0:54:040:54:06

From the cricket point of view, how can you see Test cricket surviving, hanging on?

0:54:060:54:12

I mean, it's a slender thread all the time, isn't it?

0:54:120:54:15

Desperately so, yes.

0:54:150:54:17

Because of the men, of course,

0:54:170:54:18

who will do anything for money, even a little money.

0:54:180:54:22

But this agreement was voluntarily entered.

0:54:220:54:28

And I think we must stand by it. And, if we do, I'm also sure that

0:54:280:54:35

that is the likeliest way of producing an improvement.

0:54:350:54:41

-It's the way that has produced some minor improvements in the last 10 years or 12 years.

-Yes.

0:54:410:54:46

It's the only thing that's reversed the tide.

0:54:460:54:49

And it's very questionable how far the tide has been reversed.

0:54:490:54:53

But it's been just pushed back a little bit in some areas.

0:54:530:54:57

-You wouldn't want to go again?

-I'd never go again.

0:55:030:55:06

Well, I was on the last MCC tour there,

0:55:060:55:08

as a young hopeful who did all right for a while

0:55:080:55:11

and then had a terrible end to the tour, from a cricket point of view.

0:55:110:55:15

But I stayed on and went around and saw whatever I could see.

0:55:150:55:20

The banta stands and the Transkei.

0:55:220:55:25

And met politicians of different hues.

0:55:250:55:29

Political hues, as well as visible ones.

0:55:290:55:33

And, like you, I mean, I was appalled.

0:55:330:55:36

It was much worse than I'd imagined.

0:55:360:55:40

And that was what made me feel that I didn't really want to have anything to do with it again.

0:55:400:55:44

And that I didn't know how to make any difference.

0:55:440:55:46

But I didn't want to have any more to do with it than I had to.

0:55:460:55:49

And the other thing I felt was that we're trying, in this country,

0:55:490:55:53

to be multi-racial in every way

0:55:530:55:56

and it's also a symbol for black people in England, and Great Britain,

0:55:560:56:03

that we don't put South Africa, and dealing with South Africa, first.

0:56:030:56:10

In a sense, I'm sure that's absolutely true because

0:56:100:56:15

one of the things that few people ever mention is the great necessity,

0:56:150:56:19

in an increasingly multi-racial society, to convince of our sincerity.

0:56:190:56:25

And, if this were done, there'd be far less doubt, far less anxiety,

0:56:250:56:32

on the part of the people coming in, especially from the West Indies,

0:56:320:56:35

as to, in fact, where we do stand.

0:56:350:56:38

And to say that we must keep politics out of sport is ludicrous.

0:56:460:56:53

Politics control everything we do, whether it's our attitude to sport,

0:56:530:57:00

to money that's made available for sport.

0:57:000:57:04

Literature. What we eat. What we drink.

0:57:040:57:07

What is prohibited coming into the country that we might eat or drink.

0:57:070:57:12

Absolutely everything we do is controlled by politics.

0:57:120:57:15

It's impossible to say that sport isn't, or can't be.

0:57:150:57:18

It must be. It always is.

0:57:180:57:20

In fact, it's only when you live in a relatively free society that

0:57:200:57:23

you don't notice it, isn't it?

0:57:230:57:25

The luxury of not noticing it.

0:57:260:57:28

Pushes him out on the off-side. He's caught. Caught and bowled.

0:57:320:57:35

At second slip.

0:57:370:57:39

He was one of those who'd had

0:57:390:57:41

none of the booty until then.

0:57:410:57:43

Massie's technique, bowling,

0:57:430:57:45

sliding it across the right-hander,

0:57:450:57:47

has worked again and this is

0:57:470:57:49

a record that puts him on his own,

0:57:490:57:51

taking 13 wickets in his first...

0:57:510:57:54

COMMENTARY FADES

0:57:540:57:55

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