David Hemery, Olympic Champion and Former President of UK Athletics Extra Time

We will ask him why shortly T international ban on Russia's track

and field athletes which presents them from going to Rio and the IOC's

failure to extend that to the rest of the Russian team will have to be

where we start. After all, distinguished career in

sports governance, David Henry spent four years as President of sports

athletics, a role he identified as being the conscience of the sport.

David Henry, welcome to Extra Time. As you know, we've had a damning

report which provides evidence of widespread sports doping programme

overseen by the Russian state and a recommendation from the World

Anti-Doping Agency that the country's competitors should be

entirely banned from the Rio Olympics. We also have the IOC

handing the responsibility of disciplinary action to the

International Sports Federations. What do you make of this

extraordinary story? It is an extraordinary story. It's quite sad

that the IOC have not grasped the nettle. That's what you would have

liked them to have done? I believe they should have done something in a

way saying this is not acceptable, in a way some people have said it's

passing the buck to go to individual sports, however you might argue that

some of the individual sports are those areas that rarely, if ever,

you see doping. It would have been very unfair that those sports, I

suppose have gone down the route, I deeply regret them not taking a

different stand. Not clear if you are equivocating here. Which side of

the argument do you fall on? I think they voweled have made it a ban.

Total, blanket ban? It would have been devastating for some of the

athletes there. If you have many countries where individuals, they

might be agents or managers or athletes or coaches, trying to break

the rules by doping and they get caught, you've got many countries

where this has happened. When it's state sponsored, it's different. But

put yourself in the position, then of a Russian athlete, competitor in

any sport, who is keen, knows he or she is clean, has never failed a

test and yet you would be banned from the Rio Olympics, maybe your

last chance at appearing in an Olympics because of the

misdemeanours either of fellow competitors or, indeed, of the

state. How would you feel about that? It would be devastating. I

think I would then go at my national governing bodies or the nation it,

saying this is not good enough, you've got to do something serious

about it. It's, a very, very tough one. But I think at some point you

have to draw a line calling on integrity. Well, IOC President,

Thomas Bach is clear that he's done the right thing. "I think we've

balanced on the one hand the need for personal responsibility verses

the right and responsibility of each individual athlete". Has he passed

the buck? He's deaf knittedly passed the buck. It's sad that they haven't

stood up when it's probably the most significant challenge they've ever

had. The biggest cry it ises the IOC has faced? Probably.

Beyond Salt Lake City? Definitely beyond Salt Lake City. This is a

national proven hundreds and hundreds of athletes doped. In the

individuals can prove largely - some of them are living at university in

the US - and they can prove they were tested during that time, they

are going to be allowed to compete under an Olympic individual flag and

I welcome that. Would that more had done that. I mean, at the heart of

the issue is the question of which effectively is the bigger

wrongdoing? Is it the deprivation of an Olympic place for a clean athlete

or the deprivation of a medal for a clean athlete by a fellow competitor

who's been doping? There are two issues here. Which for you is the

greater difficulty? Moral difficulty?

I think both have, you have the moral question of what is fair play,

what is integrity, and what it is to cheat. Globally it should be

education for young people to discuss those words. What does fair

play actually mean? How does that carry into what's going on at the

moment? What do the Olympics mean now, do

the Olympic movement, how do you foresee the future for it now? I

think it's good to raise the issue. That's the key. Is that with

awareness comes a choice and you have to make responsible choices in

your life. Every choice has a consequence and those that cheat and

are caught are gone. I wish they were gone for longer. I just find it

pretty on noxious that someone can receive a ban, do two years, come

back, be banned again and still come back. Well, there are

inconsistencies here as well, because any Russian athlete who's

been found guilty of doping is not allowed to go to Rio. That's pretty

clear from the IOC's decision making. But they are allowing, for

example, someone like a competitor who's been banned twice, this

American competitor to compete. Where is the consistency? It's

muddled thinking isn't it? That is why the IAAF, which Seb Coe is

leading, have an opportunity to change their rules. I know he wishes

to move it from two years to four. If they're caught a second time

they're gone. I would welcome that kind of stronger view on drugs.

We're very lucky in this country that we have an out of competition

testing system and you can pretty much guarantee that all the British

athletes who are in Rio are not drug takers. Or cheats, whatever you want

to call it. And I wish that there was sufficient money globally to

have more countries have random testing.

I mean, clearly there's a question of money here now. Out of

competition. Yes, of course. I've raised the name of Justin Gatlin. He

appeared on this programme, back, I think in 2005. Here is a quote for

you, "I have to go out there", he told me. "And show people that every

person who runs fast is not drugged up and every person who runs fast is

not cheating." Last year we had Bolt verses Gatlin, it will happen again.

What's the result you want to see? No. Good guy verses the bad guy. And

we were very relieved that Bolt won last time out. He's had some injury

issued, so I hope he can do it again. But if he doesn't? It

tarnishes the sport. We ought to accelerate the speed in which these

rule also be changed. Let me ask you about

whistle-blowers, this is a live issue, 800m runner Stepanova, banned

for two years for inconsistencies in her biological passport, then turned

whistle-blower and has now been told she can't compete in Rio. What does

that say about the future co-operation of whistle-blowers in

the fight against drugs? There certainly needs to be some kind of

benefit in whistleblowering. That is a slap in the face for someone who

tried to do the right thing. So I don't know what sort of incentive

people need to be whistle-blowers, but certainly that is a slap in the

face, as you say, if they are going to ban her from the chance to

compete. She'd have to prove that she was clean now, and the trouble

is some of the drugs that people take will be in the system, will

have changed themselves buy logically. So it's a tough one,

really a tough one. That there should be some recompense for that,

the willingness to blow the whistle-blower.

Yes, there seems to be so many inconsistencies and mudless and in

whole thing and it still has to play out as we say before fifth August.

What about the role of Lord Coe as President. Relatively new President

to the IAAF. He inherited obviously a whole barrow-load of problems from

the Presidency before. Do you sense now that he is taking the fight

forward against doping in the way that certainly the British sporting

community would want? He has been criticised, after all, byed Warner,

from time to time, the Chairman of UK Athletics, for perhaps not being

as pro-active as he should be. I think his first response when there

were accusations of the IAAF was to say, this is not true and then it

was found it was true. But most people have said that he is probably

the right person to be taking this forward. He's got the international

experience, competitive experience, and his intention is to do something

dramatic to try to combat this. So the fact that he through that sport

banned the Russians is a step in the right direction. One dramatic thing

that he and it seemsed Warner are agreed on, is the abolition of all

previous records. Whether or not, whether or not those records could

be proven to have been established by proven drugs' cheats. What do you

think of that? A complete reset? Yes, that does a huge injustice to

those who are clean. It's a bad idea. I think it's a bad idea. I

think it's an idea that you take away all the records when you can

prove someone has been, state-supported cheating, which is

what happened with the East Germans. It's ridiculous we got some of those

Eastern German records still on the record books. Makes a mockery of

them. As you anticipate the Olympics, do you think the public

will have any faith in the integrity of the sport they are watching? I

hope they will have some. Maybe you have some sports more than

others? Yes, indeed. It's horrible that you can watch a great

performance and then just step back from it and say, I wonder, I wonder

if they're clean. And you have to hope that they are. In your time?

Did you ever step back and wonder? Well, I was actually told that the

Americans were experimenting with anabolic steroids in their training

camp before Mexico. Previously it was what we used to call the

heavies. It was before they were tested for it. The Americans were

quite strong in your field? They were, co-favourites, whether it did

any good to them in their training camps three or four weeks before, I

don't know. And the heavies were the East Germans? No, the throwers. The

hammer, where the bulk helps and the anabolic steroids, for those who are

bulky, bull ks them up more but enables yo u to recover faster and

do more work. What did you make of all that at the time? Righteous

indignation. I heard this was going on and it was like over my dead body

will be you beat me by cheating. But you couldn't or wouldn't speak out?

What would you say? I don't know what one would say. Who would you

speak out to? Well, the authorities, I suppose.

But you didn't? You chose not to, because? I was focussed on my event.

It was actually in Mexico, I was told, so four weeks before we went

out there to try to do a bit of acclimatisation. So let me take you

back to Mexico City, 1968. A long time ago now. But nevertheless,

despite the fact it was a long time ago, sport wasn't unaffected by

politics at the time. Black power of course, a salute at your games. But

you are a... 400m final. Can you briefly take us through, 48 second

ts? Perhaps it will take 48 seconds to

get through it I don't know. But a little bit of story of the race?

I've never been more nervous in virtually any situation. You're

trying to pour years of preparation into less than a minute. So the

pressure I put on myself was far greater than anyone's expectation. I

intended to win, really big difference between intended to and

hoped to. You do something more about it. You had a greater

intention than your fellow competitors you think? I think I had

a belief that with all the work that I'd put in, the fact that I'd been a

high hurdler, so technically I was proficient over the hurdles. I'd

done a mammoth amount of work in the build-up to run actually faster than

I had in the high hurdles, the whole 400, just per 100m it was faster.

And that was then trying to pour all that into 48 seconds. You dominated

the race entirely? Well, it looked like that because one of the

co-favourites was just between, I was in Lane 6 and John Sherwood,

another Brit, was in lane 8. Ron Witney went off slowly, he was one

of the co-favourites and set an Olympic record in the heats. So that

action of going off slowly meant I passed him after 125m and David

Coleman went mad in saying, run up on the Olympic record on Witney,

he's gambling, never done a back straight, in his commentary, he went

mad. Britain was rarely getting golds.

He said his eye went to the camera and saw it was a world record.

Second, third and fourth tied in on the record. He went to ask him why

he had won because you were nine metres clear. The only chat I had

never raised was Ron Whitney. In those two seconds people had come

past me on my left and I thought, I never looked right and wondered if

someone had come under my arm pit and take on the medal. The Olympic

win is something I treasure as a high point because of the

integration of my body - spirit. Very touchy-feely. What does that

mean? It is something I believe in and it has been validated by America

doing research on resilience of people having lost limbs. And

integration of being fit enough of doing what you need to do, someone

who is not resilient, are they able to make decisions? The mind is clear

and the use of visualisation and in tension and you need supporters, so

be relationship. As an example of visualisation, in the buildup to the

Olympic final. Tell us about that. The co- favourite took a start and I

moved to the outside of the track. I saw this fellow take a stark and I

was drawn to the speed of movement. I watched him a round the bend and

he flew and my heart hit my throat and thought, gosh, he is a fast...

It did not destroy yourself belief? A recognised it was not helpful to

have negative thoughts like that and my thought was how do I best get

back, where I feel fast, flowing in my stride and I am, in the buildup

to this, starting 13 months before, I was running on a beach in the US

and it was a flat beach, students had gone back to high school and I

had a week before university started and I just had a pair of shorts on,

son on my back, I started running like a racehorse, landing in water.

I ran at 400 metre pace relay speed and I held it for what felt like

800m and then I thought, I am going to sprint flat out and the water was

splashing on my face and it was an awesome feeling. I went to the

infield, four o'clock Mexico time, the Evans open, so the infield was

wet and I imagine myself striding down the beach in bare feet and

within 30- 40 metres of this recalling that feeling, the use of

visualisation was really helpful but you need to keep it positive. You

remember almost every single detail, not only of the race but the

visualisation that preceded the race. You had a series of different

scenarios to deal with different circumstances on the track. Plan a-

plan Z. If you went to a job interview, you make be asking this

and what is my best response. I visualised late starts, on scares,

what is the best you can do? -- bomb scares. I raised one on one in my

mind and put them just outside me and if they started to get away from

me, I would go back on the blocks, if you ran to your potential could

you finish ahead? If I knew that I could, I then thought, fine and that

is what I did. You had to coaches, Billy Smith and Fred Houston. Billy

Smith toughen you up? He was the most brilliant technical hurdle

coach. He and Geoff Dyson who was in the national coach. He would explain

the logistics of the movement, the legs, Hants Ab position. -- hands.

Billy Smith did his master 's degree in physiology and exercise and he is

also very intuitive and he read me. I said how did you come up with

suggestions, and he said, I read your energy level and in my mind I

have the levels. I asked what the energy level is like. If you intend

to have a hard session... What is a hard session? If they call them

hands and knees and sessions where you may have to lose your lunch. And

you have to do that. Not every day. If you never go to the well, how are

you going to do it in the final was a as an educator and coach, how much

of what you have taken from your to coaches and distributed effectively

to your students and the world in a number of books you have written,

how much is that part of the modern sportsmen psychological build? My

life in teaching, I taught in school and university. And then 25 years in

management development on the skill of asking questions and listening

well and the art follow-on questions. Raise awareness and

responsibility. It is her responsibility, coach, manager,

parent. My most drought is how to help children find the champion in

themselves because that takes illustrations of what we do as

adults in Khartoum form and here are some alternatives instead of having

a child put up a defence. How can you ask a question that raises them

to take some ownership. The legacy project you are involved in. The

feelgood factor of the London Olympic and to build on that. Be the

best you can be is the slogan. How receptive are youngsters to that

kind of thinking? It is tremendous, when they are asked what are their

dreams? It does not have to be sport. Very little rarely are they

asked what they want to achieve in life. Even in the next lesson. It

should be body, mind, in motion, spirit. The participation levels at

the grassroots have been dropping CD to engage with these project and

others like it because you believe quite clearly in a grassroot sports?

Absolutely. We have to start when they are young. This is not just

about sport but whatever their dreams are but, certainly, health

and fitness is a vital part of the nation. What is your analysis of why

participation has dropped off? I think it was at the raid. They

increased from the games and then the rate has reduced. You get the

Wimbledon effect was not people rush out and play tennis for a while and

then they go to the gym and it has to be internalised. The benefit of

doing it. So it is ingrained in their lifestyle. How do you make

that a more permanent phenomenon and? Asking them questions of what

I'd your plans in your health and well-being and fit is and starting

them young. So that they actually want to do something to keep

themselves fitter and I are real believer in personal bests. It is

absolutely vital that way the person running last in the field, can you

beat what you did the last time and they may be the most improved and

they need to be recognised. That is the way forward to keeping people

motivated. We return to the Olympics and to Rio, you anticipating them

with enthusiasm or at? Enthusiasm stop I am an eternal optimist. --

dread. The current dilemma the sport is seen is only good to raise the

awareness and do something positive about it. David Hemery, thank you

very much indeed.