Special Scrum V

Good evening. Welcome to scrum five at a time when the professional game

in Wales is either in crisis at a time when the professional game

one. Tonight for one. Tonighd for t`e first timd,

since the row between regions and silce the row between regaons `nd

union became public before silce the row between regaons `nd

Christmas, we have both silce the row between regaons `nd

together in public around the table togedher hn public around the table

for the first time. togedher hn public around the table

for dhe firct time. e togedher hn public around the table

why they are locked in dispute, why dhey `re locked in dispute,

what's the solution could be and what's thd colution could be and

potentially the consequences if they potentially the bonsequdnces if they

can't agree. We have also invited an potentially the bonsequdnces if they

audience of rugby experts, legal au`ience nf rugbx experts, leg`l

experts, their representatives and au`ience nf rugbx experts, leg`l

people whose names are synonymous au`ience nf rugbx experts, leg`l

with Welsh rugby. We have Roger Lewis, Chief Executive of the WRU

an` Lewis, Chief Executive of the WRU

and a man w`o Lewis, Chief Executive of the WRU

and a man who has overseen record Lewis, Chief Executive of the WRU

annual turnover of more than ?60 anlual tupnover nf more t`an ?60

million for the group. Gareth anlual tupnover nf more t`an ?60

Daties, former Wales anlual tupnover nf more t`an ?60

Davies, former Wales captain and anlual tupnover nf more t`an ?60

Lions fly half, Chief Executive of anlual tupnover nf more t`an ?60

the Newport Gwent Dragons. the Newpopt Gwent Dragons. All

Greece, Rugby the Newpopt Gwent Dragons. All

Greece, Rtgby coprespondent for Greece, Rugby correspondent for the

Guardian and Observer Greece, Rugby correspondent for the

Guardian and bsdrver who Greece, Rugby correspondent for the

followed every twist Greece, Rugby correspondent for the

fohlowed every twist and turn nf followed every twist and turn of

this story. And Martyn Thomas, based in Wales but former chief executive

this story. And Martyn Thomas, based and chairman of the RFU in England.

A warm welcome to our panel. We will hear from the panel

A warm welcome to our panel. but before we do that, let's remind

A warm welcome to our panel. ourselves of why we are where we are

oupselves of why we are w`ere ve are with a little bit of help from our

oupselves of why we are w`ere ve are rugby correspondent, and

rugby correcponddnt, and with Charles. --

rugby correcponddnt, and with Charles. ,- with Charles.

rugby correcponddnt, and with This week the squad for the Six

This week t`e squad for t`e Six Nations was announced but how many

Napions was announced btt how lany of the 15 lining up with the

Napions was announced btt how lany in Wales next season?

Napions was announced btt how lany with many of our stars out

Napions was announced btt how lany Now the four professional regions in

Now the foub prodession`l regions in Wales are threatening to take

Wahec are t`reatenang to take flight. In a bitter

Wahec are t`reatenang to take flig`t. Il a bitter row

Wahec are t`reatenang to take flight. In a bitter row over money,

control flight. In a bitter row over money,

coltbol and flight. In a bitter row over money,

refused to do flight. In a bitter row over money,

no deal is reached by the flight. In a bitter row over money,

no deal is beached by the end flight. In a bitter row over money,

month, flight. In a bitter row over money,

molt`, they flight. In a bitter row over money,

month, they say they will jump ship. flight. In a bitter row over money,

It has been just over flight. In a bitter row over money,

since Regional Rugby Wales created since eghonal Rtgby Wales created

in the forming since eghonal Rtgby Wales created

in t`e fopming od the since eghonal Rtgby Wales created

in the forming of the Blues, Scarlets, Ospreys and Dragons. That

in the forming of the Blues, period has resulted in huge

period har besulted in huge subcess for the national side but

period har besulted in huge subcess bag for the regions. The Ospreys

bag for the regions. Thd Ospreys have won the domestic league four

bag for the regions. Thd Ospreys times but on the biggest stage,

tiiec but on the baggest stage, the Heineken Cup, the regions have

Heineken Bu`, thd regions have failed to make thear mark. But

Heineken Bu`, thd regions have failed to make their mark. But it's

Heineken Bu`, thd regions have off the field where the regions have

Heineken Bu`, thd regions have really stpuggled, An

Heineken Bu`, thd regions have really struggled. In 2012, an

really struggled, An 2012, an independent report said they had

inde`endelt repopt said t`ey h`d been poorly managed. It also

inde`endelt repopt said t`ey h`d been poorly manafed. It also called

inde`endelt repopt said t`ey h`d for the WRU and the regions to work

togedher for the WRU and the regions to work

together to tackle the issues. The togedher to tackle the hssues. The

regions tried to address togedher to tackle the hssues. The

financial problems by introducing a togedher to tackle the hssues. The

salary cap. togedher to tackle the hssues. The

salaby cap. But players togedher to tackle the hssues. The

salary cap. But players continued to sahaby cap. But players continted to

leave Wales for clubs in England and sahaby cap. But players continted to

France. Simmerinf sahaby cap. But players continted to

France. Simmering tensions came to a France. Simmerinf tensions camd to a

head last summer as European France. Simmerinf tensions camd to a

rugby descended into chaos. France. Simmerinf tensions camd to a

existing Eubopeal competition, the France. Simmerinf tensions camd to a

Heineken, is in jeopardy, after Heineken, ic in heopardx, after

English clubs pulled Heineken, ic in heopardx, after

Englash clubs pulled out Heineken, ic in heopardx, after

English clubs pulled out and came up wiph

English clubs pulled out and came up with an alternative competition,

English clubs pulled out and came up rugby champions cup. If British

English clubs pulled out and came up Irish toupnament

English clubs pulled out and came up Irish tournament with a promise of

English clubs pulled out and came up more money and control. The regions

wanted but the WRU are committed walted but dhe WPU are bommitted to

the existing Heineken Cup. Any walted but dhe WPU are bommitted to

attempt by the regions to break away from the union would have

attempt by the regions to break away from the unaon would have serious

consequenbec. We know that if one doesn't sign and

consequenbec. agreement there isn't a region and

that is the consequence of agreement there isn't a region and

The deadline for sagninf agreement there isn't a region and

resolution and the row has rumbled on.

As regions we prepared points as As regionr ge prepared poants `s to

what has worked and what hasn't. We submatted

what has worked and what hasn't. We su`matted t`at

what has worked and what hasn't. We submitted that to the union

what has worked and what hasn't. We told it

what has worked and what hasn't. We tohd it wasn't for discussion. That

what has worked and what hasn't. We is unreasonable behaviour.

I think the future is is unreasonable behaviour.

I phink the future is uncertain, I think the future is uncertain,

whatever the outcome. If we stay I think the future is uncertain,

with the union, I fear that unless I think the future is uncertain,

there is an improvement, I think the future is uncertain,

will be the downfall and there will be an exoduc of layers.

be an exodus of layers. It is about the family of rugby and

It is about the damily nf rugbx and grouping of people together

grou`ing nf people together for a reason. We will lose that if

reason. Wd gill lose th`t if regional rugby dies on its feet.

reason. Wd gill lose th`t if For some people, the dispute has now

reason. Wd gill lose th`t if become critical. Welsh Rugby Union

reason. Wd gill lose th`t if was at tipping pnint.

reason. Wd gill lose th`t if was at tipping point. I

reason. Wd gill lose th`t if was at tipping pnint. I t`ink ht

reason. Wd gill lose th`t if probably the biggest crisis

probably the bigfest crisas we have faced in professional rugby.

probably the bigfest crisas we have The WRU have now offered the

probably the bigfest crisas we have a new working contract and talks are

ongoang. a new working contract and talks are

ongoing. The stake wouldn't be a new working contract and talks are

higher but time is running out. a new working contract and talks are

The future of the game is in the bahance.

The future of the game is in the balance. You get the idea.

The future of the game is in the future is unclear as far as

The future of the game is in the professional rugby

The future of the game is in the professiolal rugby goes. ThOse

The future of the game is in the professional rugby goes. Those talks

professiolal rug`y goes. Those talks have been taking place since January

hate been taking place rince J`nuary six.

hate been taking place rince J`nuary The question is where are we with

The auestion is vhere are we with those discussions and how far away

The auestion is vhere are we with from agreement are we? Roger Lewis,

The auestion is vhere are we with where does

The auestion is vhere are we with We have met on four occasions. There

We have mdt on four occasaons. There have been 31-on-1 -- 31-on-1

We have mdt on four occasaons. There meetings. We met on Wednesday this

meetings. We met on ednesday this week with both sides with our

lawyers ald week with both sides with our

lawyers and the regions week with both sides with our

both sides. week with both sides with our

boph sides. The pegions are week with both sides with our

at the rugby meeting with Stuart week with both sides with our

Gallacher and Gareth Jenkins. Our financial people met on Wednesday as

wehl. financial people met on Wednesday as

well. Documents have been exchanged an`

well. Documents have been exchanged and we are now waiting

well. Documents have been exchanged and ge are now waiting from

well. Documents have been exchanged and we are now waiting from the

regions ol our ppimary document regions on our primary document but

we sent that on Friday. Further discessiols took

we sent that on Friday. Further discussions took place yesterday. I

we sent that on Friday. Further spoke to the chairman of Regional

we sent that on Friday. Further Rugby Wales yesterday and we will be

tahkang Rugby Wales yesterday and we will be

talking further on Monday and Rugby Wales yesterday and we will be

further information will be shared. Ara

further information will be shared. Are you close? I'm encouraged not.

further information will be shared. I think that a stand-up what

further information will be shared. been going on. The meetings

further information will be shared. been goinf on. The meetings have

further information will be shared. been on the operational

further information will be shared. -- operational issue. I think where

-- o`erational issue. I t`ink vhere we have a problem currently is some

-- o`erational issue. I t`ink vhere of the fundamental issues of the

-- o`erational issue. I t`ink vhere agreement between the union and

-- o`erational issue. I t`ink vhere the development of additional rugby

in t`e the development of additional rugby

in the sense that we don't know what the development of additional rugby

competitions we are playing in. We have got supporters who don't

competitions we are playing in. We hate got supporters who don't jnow

competitions we are playing in. We what is happening. So agreement is

nop" what is happening. So agreement is

not" Mac ,- not close? Revenues

not" Mac ,- not close? Retenues `re falling

not" Mac ,- not close? Revenues are falling and that is

not" Mac ,- not close? critical. The third element that

critical. T`e thhrd element th`t have come under my reader radar

have come under ly readdr radar and to correct your introduction, this

to correct qour hntrodubtaon, this isn't a crisis about the

isn'd a cricis a`out thd professional game,

isn'd a cricis a`out thd professional gamd, this is a

isn'd a cricis a`out thd professional game, this is a crisis

isn'd a cricis a`out thd about the game

isn'd a cricis a`out thd aboud the game il Wales.

isn'd a cricis a`out thd about the game in Wales. We have

about the game il Wales. We have had positive meetings with premiership

clqbc positive meetings with premiership

clubs and community clubs who are positive meetings with premiership

experiencing exactly the same problems we are. Figures may be

experiencing exactly the same different but the issues are

experiencing exactly the same same. I think it is time

experiencing exactly the same very reasonable. What is

experiencing exactly the same understanding as to how bitter and

deap understanding as to how bitter and

deep these visions are? The divicions

deep these visions are? The divisions are deep. You have seen

deep these visions are? The that last year. We have deep policy

that last year. Ve have deep pnlicy divides, rather than personality

that last year. Ve have deep pnlicy divides. I would like to see much

that last year. Ve have deep pnlicy more devolved power, setting up

regional boards or regional unions, more devolved power, setting up

like you having New Zealand, where like you hafing Lew ealand, where

the region comes at like you hafing Lew ealand, where

tha begiol comes at the top of the the region comes at the top of the

pyramid, just the region comes at the top of the

pypamid, juct as Wales vould the region comes at the top of the

pyramid, just as Wales would be at the region comes at the top of the

tha dop of the region comes at the top of the

the top of the overall pyramid. What the region comes at the top of the

is the the region comes at the top of the

is t`e view the region comes at the top of the

is the view from the region comes at the top of the

is t`e view from England as the region comes at the top of the

is the view from England as to what is going on in Wales?

Tha is going on in Wales?

The issue you got is going on in Wales?

Tha issue you got an is going on in Wales?

The issue you got in rugby is it is a wobldwide

The issue you got in rugby is it is a worldwide sport and the power of

The issue you got in rugby is it is the French with money is

The issue you got in rugby is it is astronomical. So the French are to

blame? When the game went rational, the English clubs had the money

blame? When the game went rational, there were people coming in

blame? When the game went rational, there were `eople cominf an who were

there were people coming in who were of lamited value to the

there were people coming in who were of limited value to the game. There

was a belief that there was a of limited value to the game. There

of gold at the end of the of gold at dhe eld of the rugbx

rainbow. There is no crock of of gold at dhe eld of the rugbx

There is merely pain and cost. In There is lebely paan and cost. In

England it is easier to get sponsorship.

sponcorshhp. People are trying

sponcorshhp. People are dryinf to portray

sponcorshhp. People are trying to portray this as

a crisis in Welsh rugby. Let's a crasis in Welsh rugby. Let's look

positively at what has taken posidively at wh`t has tacen place

in Welsh rugby and let's look forward and

in Welsh rugby and let's look fopward and reflect,

in Welsh rugby and let's look forward and reflect, as we look

forward, on what we have forward and reflect, as we look

We have achieved three championship wins since 2006. We have one to

grand slams. e wins since 2006. We have one to

World Cup. Our own 20s have been in Wopld up, Our own 20s have been in

the final of the world tha final of the world

Championships... tha final of the world

I'm going to stop tha final of the world

I'i going to stop qou tha final of the world

I'm going to stop you because it has I'm going to stop qou bdcause ht has

all been documented. We know how I'm going to stop qou bdcause ht has

well Wales have done over the past six or seven years. The Bathgate is

a Scarlets supporter. What do the a Scarlets cuppopter. What do the

supporters feel? I think there is supporters feel? I thinj there is a

huge element of frustration. supporters feel? I thinj there is a

is no control over the game below supporters feel? I thinj there is a

inpebnational letel. There supporters feel? I thinj there is a

international level. There seems to be no ambition to get vibrant

international level. There seems to competition and the unions seems

international level. There seems to satisfied that

international level. There seems to saticfied t`at the

international level. There seems to French are going to run ahead. We

international level. There seems to will come onto the money in a

moment. We have the chairman of the Welsh

moment. We have the chairman of the Wehs` rug`y

moment. We have the chairman of the Welsh rugby players Association.

moment. We have the chairman of the If it --

moment. We have the chairman of the If id -- hs

moment. We have the chairman of the If it -- is there

moment. We have the chairman of the If id -- hs there a danger

If it -- is there a danger that this could

If it -- is there a danger that this coqld have an

If it -- is there a danger that this could have an effect on performances

and perhaps put in jeopardy could have an effect on performances

everything Roger Lewis has could have an effect on performances

talking about? could have an effect on performances

I would like to think could have an effect on performances

I woeld like to thank it won't I would like to think it won't

affect players performances because afdect players pdrformances because

they are there to be a professional afdect players pdrformances because

rugby player. There is rugbq plaxeb. Thdre is that

uncertainty of whether they are rugbq plaxeb. Thdre is that

going to be rugbq plaxeb. Thdre is that

going to `e playhng rugbq plaxeb. Thdre is that

going to be playing or whether they rugbq plaxeb. Thdre is that

will be in contract next year and in rugbq plaxeb. Thdre is that

what competitions against who rugbq plaxeb. Thdre is that

what compdtations againrt who and rugbq plaxeb. Thdre is that

ara dhey going to be supportive are they going to be supportive

thaib? are they going to be supportive

their? I think that is going to are they going to be supportive

influence players decisions on where indluence players decishons on where

their future lies and if you are indluence players decishons on where

offered a contract, whether it is in Wahec,

offered a contract, whether it is in Wales, Enfland

offered a contract, whether it is in Wales, England or France, where

offered a contract, whether it is in that most certaintq

offered a contract, whether it is in that most certainty for that day to

keap a that most certainty for that day to

keep a roof over his head? Talking keap a roof over has head? Talking

of contracts, there are these six keap a roof over has head? Talking

WRU central contracts. The Gelsh Regby Tnaon

WRU central contracts. The Welsh Rugby Union would

WRU central contracts. employ up to six top players this

mornang. employ up to six top players this

morning. Apparently employ up to six top players this

mopning. @p`arently the employ up to six top players this

morning. Apparently the Wales captain Sam Warbtrton

morning. Apparently the Wales captain Sam Warburton is on the

captain Sam Warbtrton is on thd verge of

captain Sam Warbtrton is on thd contracting players a

captain Sam Warbtrton is on thd contbacting playdrs a solution?

I met with the chairman of the I met with the chairman of the

players Association this week and Garedh

players Association this week and Gareth Davies and I met on Thursday

morning. That discussion was all Gareth Davies and I met on Thursday

about how we bring back Gareth Davies and I met on Thursday

aboud how we bring back to Gareth Davies and I met on Thursday

about how we bring back to Wales top aboud how we brilg back to Wales top

talent that is left. tahent th`t is left. Th`t's at the

heart of the negotiation that we are tahent th`t is left. Th`t's at the

undertaking with the regions at the tahent th`t is left. Th`t's at the

moment. To pick up on... Is it extra tahent th`t is left. Th`t's at the

money, Roger? The Welsh Rugby Union can identify

money, Roger? extra money if we can reach

money, Roger? agreement and at the heart of

money, Roger? agreement is retaining our best

money, Roger? talent in Wales, incentivise in

money, Roger? regions to retain talent, rewarding

money, Roger? those regions who develop and retain

tahent those regions who develop and retain

talent and gorking with t`ose talent and working with those

regions who are tnable talent and working with those

regions who are unable to do that to talent and working with those

drop them sustain. talent and working with those

Where is the extra money coming from?

It is additional money if we can reach agreement

It is additional money if we can reac` agreement hf

It is additional money if we can reach agreement if we reach this

It is additional money if we can agpeement, I can

It is additional money if we can agreement, I can create further

infantry dob agreement, I can create further

infantry for Welsh rugby. agreement, I can create further

infantry dob Welsh rugbx. Where agreement, I can create further

infantry for Welsh rugby. Where is agreement, I can create further

this extra money to potentially contbact

this extra money to potentially coltbact six

this extra money to potentially contract six players to come from?

Tha contract six players to come from?

The money comes from our relationship with our key partners,

who dogetheb, relationship with our key partners,

who together, over the relationship with our key partners,

who together, ovdr the last relationship with our key partners,

who together, over the last seven yearc,

who together, over the last seven years, have

who together, over the last seven years, hate genepated

years, have generated 32% increase in revenues for the game.

years, have generated 32% increase Since 2006, the regions have an

years, have generated 32% increase increase of

years, have generated 32% increase increase nf 102%

years, have generated 32% increase increase of 102% in distribution.

years, have generated 32% increase 102%. It

years, have generated 32% increase laughter it was 16.8 million. The

years, have generated 32% increase numbers in the game

years, have generated 32% increase numbers il dhe game and

numbers in the game and what we have achieved hn

numbers in the game and what we have achieved in Wales

numbers in the game and what we have achieved hn Wales are vdry

numbers in the game and what we have impressive and that is why we were

world. voted

world. The regions signed a collective

world. agreement not to play any players

who were central contracted. Does that stand? I think the

that stand? I thhnc the agreemdnt signed was that all the regions have

that stand? I thhnc the agreemdnt to agree. That is not to say they

won'd. won't.

Do they agree at the moment? We won't.

haven't discussed that fact won't.

it isn't on won't.

it icn't on the won't.

it isn't on the table. The issue aboud

it isn't on the table. The issue about central contracts, yes it's

important we retain our best layers about central contracts, yes it's

but I returned to my about central contracts, yes it's

bup A returned to my earlaer about central contracts, yes it's

but I returned to my earlier comment about central contracts, yes it's

about the fundamental agreement has to be established. On the point of

central contracts, if there is extra to be established. On the point of

money to keep star players in Wales, to be established. On the point of

are the regions going to be established. On the point of

are the regaons goang to sit to be established. On the point of

are the regions going to sit down? to be established. On the point of

Will they sit down and discuss to be established. On the point of

whet`er to to be established. On the point of

whether to play these players? If we whether to `lay these plaqers? If we

have a competition to be in because whether to `lay these plaqers? If we

otherwise we are throwing money away. Proper competitions that can

away. ropeb competitions that can at least give Welsh rugby the

away. ropeb competitions that can opportunity of some kind of

sustainabhlaty. opportunity of some kind of

sustainability. We don't want to sustainabhlaty. Ve don't want to

throw good money after bad because that would be foolish and we have to

have other structures right. hate othep ctructures rig`t.

Paul Thorburn is in the audience. X hate othep ctructures rig`t.

Ospreys and the BYU. -- and WRU. If hate othep ctructures rig`t.

you want to play for Wales, what aboud

you want to play for Wales, what about Gatland's law, that you have

you want to play for Wales, what to play in

you want to play for Wales, what to play il Gales,

to play in Wales. It isn't going to stop players

It isn't foing to stop players necessarily leaving Wales. Even if

It isn't foing to stop players they

It isn't foing to stop players thay are told that

It isn't foing to stop players they are told that they will

thay are told th`t they wall nnt play for Wales if they lose?

thay are told th`t they wall nnt If they are offered more

If t`ey ape offeped more money in France, plus what

If t`ey ape offeped more money in pick up for a match fee

If t`ey ape offeped more money in in Wales, eferyole would look

If t`ey ape offeped more money in for me isn't

If t`ey ape offeped more money in fop me isn't about

If t`ey ape offeped more money in for me isn't about long,term

for me isn't about long-term contbacts, and

for me isn't about long-term contracts, and Martin hit the nail

for me isn't about long-term on the head, it is about controlling

a competition stpucture on the head, it is about controlling

a competition structure that is sustainable in the northern

hemisphere and making sure that sustainable in the northern

unions and teams that play in sustainable in the northern

unions and deams that plaq in that unions and teams that play in that

coipetition are unions and teams that play in that

competition are operating unions and teams that play in that

coipetition are nperating on unions and teams that play in that

competition are operating on a siiilar

competition are operating on a similar playing field in

competition are operating on a similar plaqing field in terms of

similar playing field in terms of sahaby

similar playing field in terms of salaby caps.

similar playing field in terms of salary caps. The French are running

away like a train out salary caps. The French are running

away like a trail out of control and salary caps. The French are running

so long as they are involved in any coipetition our

so long as they are involved in any competition our regions want to be

coipetition our pegions want to be in as well, we will have this same

coipetition our pegions want to be competition in five years time.

coipetition our pegions want to be There is a proposal for

There is ` `roposal for a British and Irish cup. Gareth

There is ` `roposal for a British mentioned it. Why

There is ` `roposal for a British meltioned it. Why won't

There is ` `roposal for a British mentioned it. Why won't the

meltaoned id. Whx won't t`e WRT allow the regions to play in

meltaoned id. Whx won't t`e WRT allog the regions to play in this

meltaoned id. Whx won't t`e WRT new tournament in England?

meltaoned id. Whx won't t`e WRT The Welsh Rugby Union will only

meltaoned id. Whx won't t`e WRT forward in tournaments that on the

contractual agreements we have all coltractu`l agreements ve have all

entered into. We will at coltractu`l agreements ve have all

entered ilto. We wall at all coltractu`l agreements ve have all

entered into. We will at all times entebed ilto. We wall at all times

act lawfully and we will act under tha

act lawfully and we will act under the aegis of the International Rugby

act lawfully and we will act under Board. If you can square all of

those thilgc, Board. If you can square all of

those things, we will go forward Board. If you can square all of

with the tournament. What Board. If you can square all of

with the tournamdnt. What about Board. If you can square all of

with the tournament. What about your contbact

with the tournament. What about your We met on Friday and all six nations

with the tournament. What about your meet on Tuesday with all of those

with the tournament. What about your elements on the table and the key

thing is, everyone has to be in agreement,

thing is, everyone has to be in agreement. You sent a letter to

meiber agreement. You sent a letter to

member clubs asking them to agreement. You sent a letter to

encoerage regions agreement. You sent a letter to

encourage regions to grow their agreement. You sent a letter to

businesses by improving their structures, which sounds like create

more money, generate more money. The annual report says

more money, generate more money. The annual repobt saxs it

more money, generate more money. The annual report says it is one of the

more money, generate more money. The priorities, the

more money, generate more money. The priobities, the pegions should

priorities, the regions should achieve their commercial potential.

Thay say achieve their commercial potential.

They say they have ?1 million each expra

They say they have ?1 million each extra on the table

They say they have ?1 million each deal. They are taking -- they are

inpo deal. They are taking -- they are

into macro boxes, aren't they? deal. They are taking -- they are

devil is in the detail and devil is hn the detail `nd Gareth

can explain what t`ose cal explahn what t`ose bompetitions

are and who is taking part in them cal explahn what t`ose bompetitions

because at the cal explahn what t`ose bompetitions

becaese at dhe moment we cal explahn what t`ose bompetitions

because at the moment we hear the Irish do not wish to take part

Irish do lod wish to taje part in it, the French

Irish do lod wish to taje part in it( dhe French dn not wis`

Irish do lod wish to taje part in it, the French do not wish to take

it( dhe Fpench dn not wis` to take part in it, the Italians do not wish

it( dhe Fpench dn not wis` to take to take part in it, the Scottish

it( dhe Fpench dn not wis` to take hedging their bets and at the moment

it( dhe Fpench dn not wis` to take it's an English club led initiative

whic` it's an English club led initiative

which the it's an English club led initiative

indicated they could it's an English club led initiative

in`icated t`ey could be it's an English club led initiative

indicated they could be interesting. it's an English club led initiative

Will you move on it? Is it's an English club led initiative

danger of you moving, or is it's an English club led initiative

dalger of you moting, or is it a it's an English club led initiative

firm no? We will only move if we are it's an English club led initiative

acting lawfully and we are it's an English club led initiative

acping lawfelly `nd we are acting acting lawfully and we are acting

un`eb acting lawfully and we are acting

under the acting lawfully and we are acting

undeb the rules and acting lawfully and we are acting

under the rules and regulations of the International Rugby Board. I

under the rules and regulations of don't think it is Roger's decision

under the rules and regulations of to move. He could ratify at? I think

Roger is to move. He could ratify at? I think

Rogeb is hn to move. He could ratify at? I think

Roger is in a difficult situation, or the union. The International

Rugbq or the union. The International

Rugby Board your board require all unions if you are playing

Rugby Board your board require all and an addition

Rugby Board your board require all and in addition wherever the game

Rugby Board your board require all and an addition vherever the game is

Rugby Board your board require all being played the union that controls

that grould being played the union that controls

that ground has to being played the union that controls

that grould has to consdnt. Thd being played the union that controls

that ground has to consent. The IRB that grould has to consdnt. Thd IRB

have made it clear they will not that grould has to consdnt. Thd IRB

count -- that grould has to consdnt. Thd IRB

cound -- bountenance a bross-border count -- countenance a cross-border

competition. It would cut across count -- countenance a cross-border

their belief and in fairness thaib belief and in fairness to the

IRB they put together the thaib belief and in fairness to the

IR@ they pud togdther the IRC thaib belief and in fairness to the

IRB they put together the IRC so you thaib belief and in fairness to the

will find it difficult to get IRB thaib belief and in fairness to the

consent. The WRU can make a decision as to whether they

consent. The WRU can make a decision as to whether thdy consent. I

as to whether they consent. I cannot sea

as to whether they consent. I cannot see the RFU consenting. Definitely

as to whether they consent. I cannot not? In the RFU there is an

as to whether they consent. I cannot agreement that does not expire until

as to whether they consent. I cannot 2016 where dhe

as to whether they consent. I cannot 2016 where the English clubs are

as to whether they consent. I cannot required to play in Europe or the

as to whether they consent. I cannot European competition until the end

of t`at European competition until the end

of that season and the European competition until the end

of t`at seacon ald the RFU havd European competition until the end

of that season and the RFU have been sihent about it

of that season and the RFU have been silent about it but I find that

sihent abnud it `ut find that agreement with the clubs. On why I

find that agreement with the clubs. agreement with the clubs. On why I

On why argue so intent on this? It On w`y argue so hntent nn this> It

gives us a On w`y argue so hntent nn this> It

competition. The alternative is competition. he altern`tave is

probably an extended Pro12 competition. he altern`tave is

probably an extelded Pro12 with competition. he altern`tave is

probably an extended Pro12 with six competition. he altern`tave is

teams competition. he altern`tave is

teamc from competition. he altern`tave is

teams from France plus a Romanian competition. he altern`tave is

team of the Portuguese team, or whatever. I can't see these tills

team of the Portuguese team, or ringing in regional clubs, lining

team of the Portuguese team, or to see thdm playhng

team of the Portuguese team, or to see them playing for

team of the Portuguese team, or time in a season or whatever. It

team of the Portuguese team, or not a meaningful competition. We

team of the Portuguese team, or have a lot of

team of the Portuguese team, or hate a lot of grassroots people

team of the Portuguese team, or have a lot of grassroots people in

team of the Portuguese team, or the audience.

team of the Portuguese team, or the audielce. Di

team of the Portuguese team, or the audience. Di Davis from Newtown

team of the Portuguese team, or is with us. It is a long way to come

down to Cardiff. What is your take is with us. It is a long way to come

on this? It's a community game is with us. It is a long way to come

have to be worrying about. We are is with us. It is a long way to come

lucky in North Wales we have is with us. It is a long way to come

development region, we have a successful regional team currently

promoted from division one, successful regional team currently

in the championship now, below that we are very flourishing club scene

an` we are very flourishing club scene

and the North Wales team is made up we are very flourishing club scene

of North Wales plaqers. That's is in we are very flourishing club scene

itself sending a message to a lot of we are very flourishing club scene

you so gentlemen, please get this issue resolved not just at regional

WRQ issue resolved not just at regional

WRU level but below there issue resolved not just at regional

WRQ level but below there the issue resolved not just at regional

community game otherwise issue resolved not just at regional

commenity game otherwisd we will issue resolved not just at regional

community game otherwise we will be hiptang

community game otherwise we will be hitting problems. Paul, you have

community game otherwise we will be covered these

community game otherwise we will be cotebed thece political

community game otherwise we will be covered these political stories

community game otherwise we will be behind-the-scenes for years and

years now. The way it is going, is there an inevitability,

years now. The way it is going, is thare an hnevita`ility, no matter

there an inevitability, no matter what people might say today, that at

some point clubs, regions, whatever yoq

some point clubs, regions, whatever you want to call them, will start to

some point clubs, regions, whatever control their own destiny

some point clubs, regions, whatever coltrol thear owl destiny and

some point clubs, regions, whatever control their own destiny and they

coltbol thear owl destiny and they will be ndgotiating their

coltbol thear owl destiny and they will be negotiating their own TV

coltbol thear owl destiny and they deals? Martyn -- Martyn mentioned

cross-border tournament is needing deals? Martyn -- Martyn mentioned

to be authorised, what they deals? Martyn -- Martyn mentioned

said was tnequivncally deals? Martyn -- Martyn mentioned

said was unequivocally they want a pan-Europdan

said was unequivocally they want a pal-European six

said was unequivocally they want a pan-European six Nations

said was unequivocally they want a next season, not this Five Nations

said was unequivocally they want a you were a chief executive of

said was unequivocally they want a region I cannot believe you

said was unequivocally they want a prepared to sign up for something

said was unequivocally they want a which has no rugby value and has

liptle commercial value. APPLAUSE

. That is why we are meeting on APPLAUSE

Tuesday to resolve this and it has Tuesday to besolte this and it has

been written even by ourselves and been written evel by ourselves and

with respect you have not been to any of those meetings to discuss the

competition format and I'd encourage yoq

competition format and I'd encourage you as a bogeyman to join us. The

onhy you as a bogeyman to join us. The

only way we will resolve this is onhy way ve will resolvd this hs

working together -- as a onhy way ve will resolvd this hs

wopkang together -- as a rugby onhy way ve will resolvd this hs

working together -- as a rugby man onhy way ve will resolvd this hs

to join us. There is a crisis across tha

to join us. There is a crisis across the game

to join us. There is a crisis across tha game in Europe and

to join us. There is a crisis across the game in Europe and we need to

address our issuds the game in Europe and we need to

address our issues together the game in Europe and we need to

address our issuds together in WalEs address our issuds together in Wales

and move forward together. I'd be dehighted

and move forward together. I'd be delighted to attend but from

and move forward together. I'd be hear from recent meetings

and move forward together. I'd be of competitions, basically there

and move forward together. I'd be a stone wall. We are not moving

a stone wall. We are not movinf anywhere. I am encouraged if you

a stone wall. We are not movinf anywhere. I am elcouragdd if you are

anywhere. I am elcouragdd if ynu are saying on Tuesday there will be a

anywhere. I am elcouragdd if ynu are meaningful discussion to try

anywhere. I am elcouragdd if ynu are determine what is best for European

anywhere. I am elcouragdd if ynu are rugby and how it applies to Wales

rugbq and how it applies to Wales because it is quite scary when Paul

mentioned the TV deal that fans have done, just to get it into

pers`ectite, 350 done, just to get it into

perspective, 350 million euros done, just to get it into

pers`ectite, 350 million euros over peps`ectite, 350 mallion euros over

the next five years and the peps`ectite, 350 mallion euros over

going into French rugby is peps`ectite, 350 mallion euros over

equivalent to the total peps`ectite, 350 mallion euros over

eqqifalent do thd total revenuds of equivalent to the total revenues of

the Irish, equivalent to the total revenues of

the Arish, Welsh and equivalent to the total revenues of

unions. If you look at their unions. Id you looc at their

commercial income. That coimercial ancomd. That is not a

criticism of coimercial ancomd. That is not a

critacism of any of the coimercial ancomd. That is not a

criticism of any of the unions, it coimercial ancomd. That is not a

is jest facds, ald coimercial ancomd. That is not a

is just facts, and this train is just facds, ald this train has

started running and there is just facds, ald this train has

started running `nd there is nn is just facds, ald this train has

stopping the train so we can either try and get our own train up and

stopping the train so we can either running so we have, that is a

rulnang sn ge hate, that as a commercial reality we will

rulnang sn ge hate, that as a to those levels but

rulnang sn ge hate, that as a we have got? We heard

rulnang sn ge hate, that as a we have gnt? We heard George

rulnang sn ge hate, that as a one of the great Welsh players,

rulnang sn ge hate, that as a Wahec to

rulnang sn ge hate, that as a Wales to play meaningful

coipetitionc. APPLAUSE

We wall APPLAUSE

We will all watch with interest this meatang

We will all watch with interest this meeting on Tuesday and I might come

back to that with qou, meeting on Tuesday and I might come

back to that with you, Roger. You meeting on Tuesday and I might come

have said, Gareth, if ynu meeting on Tuesday and I might come

have said, Gareth, if you don't get meeting on Tuesday and I might come

your way on this Champions Cup, meeting on Tuesday and I might come

your way nn this C`ampions Cup, the yoqr way nn this C`ampions Cup, the

British and Irish cup, whatever it is called, the statement you

reheased is called, the statement you

released that you would pursue other is called, the statement you

competition options is called, the statement you

other is called, the statement you

otheb words, you is called, the statement you

other words, you don't get other words, you don't fet this

alternative cup, you look elsewhere, other words, you don't fet this

that is an Anglo-Welsh league, joining the Premiership in England?

that is an Anglo-Welsh league, It could well

that is an Anglo-Welsh league, It could vell be,

that is an Anglo-Welsh league, It could well be. Was that

that is an Anglo-Welsh league, It could vell be, Was that A

that is an Anglo-Welsh league, one from the regions has said on the

that is an Anglo-Welsh league, record in public, yes, the

Anglo-Welsh league as an record in public, yes, the

Anglo- elsh leagte as an option. record in public, yes, the

has been alluded to, no one has said record in public, yes, the

definitively this is what we definitivdlq this as wh`t we h`ve as

an option on the table. I am definitivdlq this as wh`t we h`ve as

you back to December 31, when we definitivdlq this as wh`t we h`ve as

were faced definitivdlq this as wh`t we h`ve as

wepe faced gith definitivdlq this as wh`t we h`ve as

were faced with not signing the PA, definitivdlq this as wh`t we h`ve as

we did not exist. That was the we dad not exist, That vas the

threat looming. It was a huge decicion.

threat looming. It was a huge decision. Across the four regions

thare decision. Across the four regions

there are decision. Across the four regions

thare are a`proximately decision. Across the four regions

there are approximately 40 directors, a mixture of business

people, entrepreneurs, great rugby people, eltbepreleurs, freat rugby

guys like Gareth Edwards, David people, eltbepreleurs, freat rugby

Watkins, Roger Blyth. That decision Watkins, Poger Blyth. That decision

not to sign Watkins, Poger Blyth. That decision

not do sign a Watkins, Poger Blyth. That decision

not to sign a PA was not taken lightly. There were 40

lighdly. There were 40 people unanimously not going for it so

lighdly. There were 40 people we had to look at what are the

lighdly. There were 40 people options so the first option which

oppions sn dhe first option whhch is on January the 31st, would be

oppions sn dhe first option whhch is European

oppions sn dhe first option whhch is Eupo`ean cup. It

oppions sn dhe first option whhch is European cup. It will be if it

happens with an extra ?1 million a European cup. It will be if it

year coming European cup. It will be if it

year comilg from t`e regions European cup. It will be if it

are not harming Ireland Scotland. European cup. It will be if it

stand because Roger will not agree, European cup. It will be if it

England will not agree, the IRB will England will not agree, t`e IRB will

not agree. If it doesn't happen, is a place for the four regions in the

Aviva Premiership, whatever sponsor a place for the four regions in the

it might be, is that an option? It coqld

it might be, is that an option? It could be an option. It is an option.

Would you like to comment on that? I could be an option. It is an option.

do not see a future for t`e could be an option. It is an option.

do not see a future for the regions could be an option. It is an option.

in the English could be an option. It is an option.

in the Englash Ppemiership. I could be an option. It is an option.

there are a number of things that could be an option. It is an option.

militate against it. The RFU rules could be an option. It is an option.

provide could be an option. It is an option.

provade it can could be an option. It is an option.

provide it can only be a 12 team Premiership. It requires promotion

and relegation Premiership. It requires promotion

and belegation from Premiership. It requires promotion

and relegation from the endless Premiership. It requires promotion

championship and for the Premiership Premiership. It requires promotion

to turn round, to say to the second tier in England, well we are dumping

you guys nog, you tier in England, well we are dumping

you guys now, you will not get promoted, look at the way Londnn

Welsh were treated, that was promoted, look at the way Londnn

Welsh were dreated, that was a promoted, look at the way Londnn

disgrace and actually I promoted, look at the way Londnn

disgbace and actually I don't disgbace `nd actually I don't think

we should allow another organisation disgbace `nd actually I don't think

across the Severn Bridge to damage acpocs thd Ceverl Bridgd to dalage

what exists there. We have acpocs thd Ceverl Bridgd to dalage

English fans here, welcome, you must acpocs thd Ceverl Bridgd to dalage

be wondering what on earth you have acpocs thd Ceverl Bridgd to dalage

let yourselves in for! Bath fans, a acpocs thd Ceverl Bridgd to dalage

straight question, would you straight puestiol, would qou rather

face Welsh sides in a competition, straight puestiol, would qou rather

or Bristol? straight puestiol, would qou rather

or Bbistol? That straight puestiol, would qou rather

or Bristol? That might be the quid straight puestiol, would qou rather

pro quo. The point Martin made about the idea of having the

pro quo. The point Martin made about and an expanded impish Premiership,

pro quo. The point Martin made about the qui question

pro quo. The point Martin made about the aui quection is would it be ring

the qui question is would it be ring fenced and if it wasn't

the qui question is would it be ring and there was promotion and

rehegatiol, and there was promotion and

relegation, promotion from and there was promotion and

relegatiol, promotion from Just the and there was promotion and

English Championship and there was promotion and

Englash Championship and if and there was promotion and

team finished bottom, where would they be relegated to? In principle,

team finished bottom, where would I can't ask you to speak for all

England rugby fans but I can't ask you to speak for all

fans want Welsh sides in an expanded Premiership? From an English

fans want Welsh sides in an expanded perspective it is nice to play the

Welsh teams but how often do perspective it is nice to play the

organisation? Irish perspective it is nice to play the

audience, I will not mention perspective it is nice to play the

Sorensen is yesterday. Don't worry, perspective it is nice to play the

that would be very cruel. -- that would be vepy cruel. --

Saracens. If you look at that would be vepy cruel. --

Munster, Munster, if you that would be vepy cruel. --

Munsder, Lunster, if you do you that would be vepy cruel. --

Munster, Munster, if you do you feel Mulsder, Lunster, af you do you feel

you are being abandoned? You have Mulsder, Lunster, af you do you feel

arguably been the most consistent at arguably `een thd most bonsistent at

club or regional level and you could be left out in the cold? I would

club or regional level and you could feel we are being abandoned but I

feal we ape beinf abandnned but I also think

feal we ape beinf abandnned but I also thinj from the

feal we ape beinf abandnned but I also think from the Welsh point of

feal we ape beinf abandnned but I view it would

feal we ape beinf abandnned but I viaw it would be dangerous

feal we ape beinf abandnned but I view it would be dangerous for

feal we ape beinf abandnned but I to go into an Enflash league.

feal we ape beinf abandnned but I to go into an English league. In

to go into an Enflash league. Hn what way? For the reasons that have

what way? For thd reasons that have been stated from

what way? For thd reasons that have bean stated from t`e

what way? For thd reasons that have been stated from the member from

what way? For thd reasons that have Bath. I can't see the English

what way? For thd reasons that have going to allow a lead way you are

not going to allow a lead way you are

nop going going to allow a lead way you are

not going to be relegated and if you going to allow a lead way you are

get relegated, where are going to allow a lead way you are

You are not going to get going to allow a lead way you are

You are not goinf to get the going to allow a lead way you are

You are not going to get the same going to allow a lead way you are

money if you are paying in going to allow a lead way you are

moleq if yoe are paying in a seconD going to allow a lead way you are

competition and also the English going to allow a lead way you are

clubs are going to have more money going to allow a lead way you are

than Welsh regions. That is going to allow a lead way you are

going to be the case. The team seems going to `e the base. The team seems

to be who should control the club going to `e the base. The team seems

game, the unions going to `e the base. The team seems

clubs of the going to `e the base. The team seems

clubc of the reghons who drIve going to `e the base. The team seems

clubs of the regions who drive it, going to `e the base. The team seems

we have mentioned there was the we have mdndioned there was thd

Price Waterhouse Coopers report that came

Price Waterhouse Coopers report that caie out

Price Waterhouse Coopers report that came out a couple of years ago, very

Price Waterhouse Coopers report that critical of the way the regions had

Price Waterhouse Coopers report that run. Mark Davis, Gareth was not at

Price Waterhouse Coopers report that the Dragons when

Price Waterhouse Coopers report that the Dragols when it happens,

Price Waterhouse Coopers report that the Dragons when it happens, Mark,

Price Waterhouse Coopers report that you gere BEO

Price Waterhouse Coopers report that you were CEO of the

Price Waterhouse Coopers report that report was commissioned. When it

repobt war commissaoned. When ht came out as

repobt war commissaoned. When ht caie out as well.

repobt war commissaoned. When ht came out as well. You could argue

repobt war commissaoned. When ht the regions have

repobt war commissaoned. When ht the begiols have had

repobt war commissaoned. When ht the regions have had their chance to

make their success. They haven't done it. Why should

make their success. They haven't done it. Vhq should you get

make their success. They haven't done it. Why should you get the

chance now to drive your revenues done it. Why should you get the

and do commercial deals? If you take what the Price Waterhouse

and do commercial deals? If you take what the Prace W`terhouse Coopers

and do commercial deals? If you take report actually said, Gareth,

repobt actually raad, Gareth, ht said that the regions have made

mistakes in said that the regions have made

mistakes hn the mistakes in the past. It was awful

due diligence exercise on every piace

due diligence exercise on every piece of financial information from

every single region piece of financial information from

everq sinfle region over piece of financial information from

every single region over a full period of years ,- it

every single region over a full period of years -- it was a

every single region over a full period of years ,- it was a fall due

every single region over a full diligence exercise. It said the

every single region over a full regions had taken action to improve

regions h`d takel action to improve their management teams, the

regions h`d takel action to improve management teams were clearly

focuced management teams were clearly

focused on commercial activity and management teams were clearly

this is gning management teams were clearly

this is going back to 2011 financial management teams were clearly

year and had clearly improved the cost base of the businesses thdy

were operating. You are in an were operatang. Xou are in an

effective position to negotiate were operatang. Xou are in an

these TV deals and commercial were operatang. Xou are in an

contacts yourself? The reality is were operatang. Xou are in an

have the regions made mistakes in hate the pegions made mhstakes in

the past? Yes, of hate the pegions made mhstakes in

the `ast? Yes, od course, hate the pegions made mhstakes in

the past? Yes, of course, but do you hate the pegions made mhstakes in

know a business that hasn't, practically speaking? It costs you

money. Who did it cost practically speaking? It costs you

moleq. Whn did it cost loney? The money. Whn did it cost loney? The

people in the regions. money. Whn did it cost loney? The

people in t`e regions. It money. Whn did it cost loney? The

people in the regions. It did not money. Whn did it cost loney? The

cost anybody else money. They have changed their management

cost anybody else money. They have and are in

cost anybody else money. They have an` are il a

cost anybody else money. They have and are in a different

cost anybody else money. They have today

cost anybody else money. They have todaq but

cost anybody else money. They have today but at the end of the day they

cost anybody else money. They have are independently funded businesses

cost anybody else money. They have that need to be in charge of their

own that need to be in charge of their

owl destily. own destiny.

APPLAU E own destiny.

Are own destiny.

Ara qou absolutely own destiny.

Are you absolutely principle against own destiny.

the regions being able to negotiate their own TV deals? The

the regions being able to negotiate of the game has to follow the

the regions being able to negotiate governance of the rugby and if we

braac governance of the rugby and if we

break away, as has been suggested, and it is only a t`ree-year

break away, as has been suggested, and it is only a three-year term

an` it is only a t`ree-year term that is on offer from the English

that is ol offer from the English clubs to the Welsh clubs, only three

years, three years, there after who clubs to the Welsh clubs, only three

knows what, is not a way clubs to the Welsh clubs, only three

long stem -- long-term stability. clubs to the Welsh clubs, only three

The waiter creates Tha gaitep creates sustainability is

to work collectively together with tha

to work collectively together with the governance of the game and

to work collectively together with finances running hand-in-hand. I

filances punning hand-in-`and. I think that is no. David

filances punning hand-in-`and. I chief executive of the Welsh Rugby

filances punning hand-in-`and. I Union when the went regional 2003,

filances punning hand-in-`and. I he has been busy, only back in

filances punning hand-in-`and. I coqndry a few daxs but

filances punning hand-in-`and. I country a few days but a letter

coundry a few daxs but ` letter has gone out

coundry a few daxs but ` letter has gole out drom

coundry a few daxs but ` letter has Union in which

coundry a few daxs but ` letter has the current impasse in ten days

tha currelt imparse in ten dayr which

tha currelt imparse in ten dayr whic` is puate

tha currelt imparse in ten dayr which is quite a

tha currelt imparse in ten dayr whic` is puate a claim

tha currelt imparse in ten dayr which is quite a claim given that we

have been at it for two years now. This would be your third bite of the

This would be your third bite nf the cherry at it. You have been union

charby at id. You `ave been unhon chief executive, regional chief

charby at id. You `ave been unhon executive, what makes you think

charby at id. You `ave been unhon can step in

charby at id. You `ave been unhon cal step hn and

charby at id. You `ave been unhon can step in and solve it whether

cal ctep hn and rolve it whethdr -- where others have failed and

cal ctep hn and rolve it whethdr -- where otherc have failed and in a

where others have failed and in a way you leaning up your own mess

where others have failed and in a from ten years ago. Is it a mess? Is

where others have failed and in a it a mess? Roger went through at the

it a mess> Boger went through `t the beginning of party political

broadcast wall stop -- broadcart. broadcast will stop -- broadcast. It

is not just behind the scenes. I is not jurt behild the rcenes. I

want to make the is not jurt behild the rcenes. I

regional road became in, regional poad became in, which I

bought in, Wales has experienced more success

bought in, Wales has experienced mope success thal

bought in, Wales has experienced more success than ever in its

history bot` more success than ever in its

history both on and off the field. history bnt` on `nd off t`e field.

When I got to history bnt` on `nd off t`e field.

Whan I got do Wales history bnt` on `nd off t`e field.

When I got to Wales there history bnt` on `nd off t`e field.

Whan I got do Wales there was a deBt history bnt` on `nd off t`e field.

of ?75 million. When I left, ?45 of ?'5 millaon. Vhen I left, ?45

million. In that time for whatever reason the WRU has sought to pay

million. In that time for whatever down that debt faster than

million. In that time for whatever needed to and there was absolutely

million. In that time for whatever no reason to do that. The

million. In that time for whatever relationship between regions and...

It is not working. We have a meeting relationship between regions and...

on Tuesday. They knew it was coming relationship between regions and...

to macro years ago. What has relationship between regions and...

happened in the intervening two yearc?

happened in the intervening two years? Nothing. In 2011, the regions

happened in the intervening two hit the rocks. The Welsh Rugby

happened in the intervening two suggested that we commission PWC.

suggested t`at we commissaon PWC. They paid for the report. In 2011,

Thay paid for thd report. In 2011, we began it. Throughout

Thay paid for thd report. In 2011, meetings took place

Thay paid for thd report. In 2011, Rugby Union and

Thay paid for thd report. In 2011, at a range of models. In June 2012,

Thay paid for thd report. In 2011, the English clubs decided to pull

away from Europe. In the English clubs decided to pull

away from Eerope. An August, the the English clubs decided to pull

Wehs` Rug`y Union suggested the English clubs decided to pull

Welsh Rugby Union suggested a way forward

Welsh Rugby Union suggested a way fopward wit` the regions and

Welsh Rugby Union suggested a way forward with the regions and that

fopward wit` the regionr and that and take place. Then there was a

an` take place. Then thdre was a hiatus and we picked it up once

hiates and ge picked it up once more. Further suggestions were put

forward and discussions took case. forward ald discussions took case.

On July the 1st of last year, forward ald discussions took case.

regions could have told us that they didn't wish to sign the PA. The WRU

regions could have told us that they did not set a deadline of

regions could have told us that they the ?1st.

regions could have told us that they the 31st. That was a date agreed by

the ?1st. T`at was a date agreed by both parties in 2009 and we

the ?1st. T`at was a date agreed by suggested that December the 31st was

too late but the regions wanted too late `ud the regionr wanted that

date so we `onouped it. too late `ud the regionr wanted that

date so we honoured it. The too late `ud the regionr wanted that

signed up to a too late `ud the regionr wanted that

and dhe olly people who too late `ud the regionr wanted that

and the only people who could break that where the regaons.

that where the regions. Roger. I want to

that where the regions. Rogeb. I want to come b`cc to David

that where the regions. as well. Juct halg

that where the regions. as well. Just hang on a second.

that where the regions. your previous guise, when you were

Chief Executive of the regions, you your previous guise, when you were

hardly used the language of peace your previous guise, when you were

and conciliation. What makes you your previous guise, when you were

think you will come in and solve it?

In actual fact, we have got an agreement with the union

In actual fact, we have got an starded ten

In actual fact, we have got an started ten years. Let me go back

starded ten years. Let le go b`ck to this PWC report.

this P C pe`ort. I just want to... David, David...

this P C pe`ort. I huct want to... David, David... I

this P C pe`ort. just want to stick to the point. I

this P C pe`ort. want to come back to the point

this P C pe`ort. view... I'm not going to let

this P C pe`ort. talk over the top of me. I'm going

to talk about the point of you talk over the top of me. I'm going

coming back from New Zealand. You coiing babk from New Zealand. You

say you can solve it. say qou can solvd at. Why you?

Because I got more knowledge say qou can solvd at. Why you?

just about everybody in this say qou can solvd at. Why you?

just about everybody in t`is room say qou can solvd at. Why you?

just about everybody in this room on inpebnational

just about everybody in this room on international rugby.

inpebnational rufbq. More knowledge than a former Wales

inpebnational rufbq. and Lions fly half? I've got more

adiinistratave and Lions fly half? I've got more

administrative klowledge and Lions fly half? I've got more

He is a good friend of mine. and Lions fly half? I've got more

know what I do have more on edge -- and Lions fly half? I've got more

more knowledge about? Central contbactilg.

more knowledge about? Central contracting. Guess

coltbactilg. uess what, at New Zealand Rugby union, we brought it

Zealand Rtgby unhon, we brought it in and you cannot have a central

Zealand Rtgby unhon, we brought it contracting half baked with only six

players. It will not work. We contracting half baked with only six

have time to run through the outs.

You are now canvassing outs.

need to clubs to back you outs.

need to clubs to back ynu to stand outs.

for the board. Have outs.

fop dhe bnabd. Have you got for the board. Have you got them

yep? Yes. for the board. Have you got them

yet? Yes. I have got one for the board. Have you got them

next to me, for a start. That is not for the board. Have you got them

the problem. I have for the board. Have you got them

letter to the clubs, that I lepter to t`e clubs, th`t I thnught

strongly about, that I have lepter to t`e clubs, th`t I thnught

stpongly `bout, that I have come strongly `bout, that I have come

back from my country to the weather we have here because I am passionate

back from my country to the weather about Welsh rugby. If you want

back from my country to the weather central contracts, you

back from my country to the weather central condracts, you have to have

back from my country to the weather everybody on

back from my country to the weather everqbody on them or

back from my country to the weather everybody on them or nobody. Or

back from my country to the weather there is nne other alternative-use

there is one other alternative-use it down and work out a joint control

it down ald work out a joant control of the players. That is not

it down ald work out a joant control happening and it will never happen.

it down ald work out a joant control I think I can achieve that because

of my knowledge of the whole system of my knowledge nf the vhole sxstem

and that is the way I work. of my knowledge nf the vhole sxstem

an` that is the waq I work. You and dhat hs the vaq worc. You have

made your point. Is and dhat hs the vaq worc. You have

leadership problem here? Ara

leadership problem here? Are you happy with the way that you

leadership problem here? have led the negotiations?

leadership problem here? We have behaved in the best

leadership problem here? interests of all of Welsh

leadership problem here? Union and that is what I said

leadership problem here? Union and t`at is what I said at

leadership problem here? Union and that is what I said at the

leadership problem here? start.

leadership problem here? stard. We can

leadership problem here? with the has created. If you look to

with the hac created. If qou look to the 320 member clubs and

with the hac created. If qou look to the ?20 mdmber clubs and schools

with the hac created. If qou look to the 320 member clubs and schools the

divisions, look the 320 member clubs and schools the

ditisions, look `t Welsh the 320 member clubs and schools the

divisions, look at Welsh rugby. What the 320 member clubs and schools the

we have done has been great. We are the 320 member clubs and schools the

the only European country which has the 320 member clubs and schools the

this uncertainty that is tearing the 320 member clubs and schools the

itself apart. Can the regions say thay

itself apart. Can the regions say they have conducted themselves well

itself apart. Can the regions say and let their cause well?

itself apart. Can the regions say I suppose the answer to that is no

itself apart. Can the regions say because we are having this debate

itself apart. Can the regions say and I think

itself apart. Can the regions say an` A thilk that

itself apart. Can the regions say and I think that reflects where

itself apart. Can the regions say all are, as regions and the WRU. We

itself apart. Can the regions say are having

itself apart. Can the regions say are `aving a

itself apart. Can the regions say are having a public debate about

ara havinf a public deb`te about the crisis

ara havinf a public deb`te about the crisas withan

ara havinf a public deb`te about the crisis within the game and I think

it ic crisis within the game and I think

it is more than an issue it ic more dhan `n issud between

Regional Rugby Wales and the WRU. Leadership do

Regional Rugby Wales and the WRU. Leadership to me is not only how

Regional Rugby Wales and the WRU. many people follow you but how many

people read. There are leadership many people follow you but how many

rolec in many people follow you but how many

roles in many many people follow you but how many

rolec in many sort of areas many people follow you but how many

roles in many sort of areas within many people follow you but how many

the game, which I think reflects what PWC are saying.

the game, which I think reflects what PWC `re saying. Thd

the game, which I think reflects what PWC are saying. The only

sohudion to what PWC are saying. The only

collaboration and that has to be what PWC are saying. The only

collaboration, not the master, servant relationship.

collaboration, not the master, When it comes down to it, there is a

deadline the regions set to the end When it comes down to it, there is a

of January for the answer or you wihl

of January for the answer or you will pursue these of

of January for the answer or you wihl pursue thesd of accommodation

will pursue these of accommodation oppions.

will pursue these of accommodation options. On the first or 2nd of

will pursue these of accommodation February, will you walk? Are you

will pursue these of accommodation if there is no agreement? The sun

if there hs no afreement? The run will still rise and life will still

go on. It is important to set will still rise and life will still

deadlines and that is why it will still rise and life will still

been done, to focus minds. We have to concentrate on getting

sponsorship, getting season tickets to concentrate on getting

at... So it is an option? We have to at... o ht is al option? We h`ve to

do something. We are we are responsible as businesses. I

think that is the difference with think that as thd difference with

the Heineken disputes in 1998 and think that as thd difference with

2006. It was France and the think that as thd difference with

2006. It wac Fralce and t`e FF think that as thd difference with

who gave notice before. This time think that as thd difference with

they haven't gone into the thay havel'd gond anto the

conference chamber naked. colference chambdr naked. English

clubs have a colference chambdr naked. English

clubc have a BT colference chambdr naked. English

clubs have a BT deal and the Welsh colference chambdr naked. English

regions are tied with English colference chambdr naked. English

clubs. It gives them a stronger colference chambdr naked. English

negotiating deal. The rich negotiatilg deal, The ric` clubs

don't want an Anglo-Welsh league negotiatilg deal, The ric` clubs

it is a fallback position and it is negotiatilg deal, The ric` clubs

better than negotiatilg deal, The ric` clubs

bepter than what negotiatilg deal, The ric` clubs

better than what is on the table. This could end up in the

better than what is on the table. This could end up an thd courts. WE

This could end up in the courts. We ara boined by

This could end up in the courts. We are joined by a

This could end up in the courts. We ara boined by a renior

This could end up in the courts. We are joined by a senior member of a

law firm. He has previously are joined by a senior member of a

represented punter Paul in a case are joined by a senior member of a

against the Welsh Rugby Union. are joined by a senior member of a

Pontypool. If there was a breakaway Poltypool, Af thdre was a breajaway

and the regions went to court, how easy is thad

and the regions went to court, how easy is that to win?

and the regions went to court, how indeed. It is all down to public

indeed. It as all down to public policy. Judges like discretion. It

could go eidher waq. policy. Judges like discretion. It

It could `e expensive policy. Judges like discretion. It

It could be expensive and messy. policy. Judges like discretion. It

If anyone is to break policy. Judges like discretion. It

If anyone ic to break avaq policy. Judges like discretion. It

If anyone is to break away from policy. Judges like discretion. It

these agreements, they have to policy. Judges like discretion. It

with an incredible sense of confadence

with an incredible sense of confidence that they are

with an incredible sense of lawfully and

with an incredible sense of lawfelly and in

with an incredible sense of lawfully and in the best interest of

rugby. lawfully and in the best interest of

In terms of knowing that the lawfully and in the best interest of

between the region and lawfully and in the best interest of

expiring on December 31, and expibing nn December 31, and ynu

have signed the Celtic have signdd the Beltic `re for

another three or four years. How can another three or four ydars. How can

you signed that, not knowing another three or four ydars. How can

on board? The regions

on board? Tha begions where

on board? The regions where a director

on board? Tha begions where a director of the

The begiols where a director of the company when these discussions were

The begiols where a director of the taking place. They were a director

The begiols where a director of the of the European cup, as were the

rugby union. All of us behaved in a of the European cup, as were the

going to continue. All of us behaved of the European cup, as were the

in that manner. Rogeb,

in that manner. Roger, we

in that manner. Rogeb, we abe talkang

in that manner. Roger, we are talking about the

in that manner. deadlines at the end of t`e month.

deadlines at the end of the month. If the regions consider other

oppions If the regions consider other

options and go, are these new If the regions consider other

still being talked about with Mac -- about?

still being talked about with Mac -- The union has never talked

still being talked about with Mac -- settang up

still being talked about with Mac -- setting up new regions. You have

still being talked about with Mac -- settang up new regaons. You have not

still being talked about with Mac -- specified which teams will enter the

competition? competition?

I have not competition?

I hafe not had competition?

I have not had any private coipetitionc

I have not had any private competitions about setting up new

I have not had any private regions. The clip qou showed

I have not had any private regions. The clip you showed at the

top of the programme, you regions. The clip you showed at the

it. The first part of that clips that I am committed to making the

foqr four regions work.

Is an option at your disposal to set four regions work.

up new teams? Let's treat this four regions work.

the seriousness with deserves. This is Welsh rugby. This is

the seriousness with deserves. This is Welsh pugby. Thas is everything

the seriousness with deserves. This we have built up

the seriousness with deserves. This we have btilt up in

the seriousness with deserves. This we have built up in the last 133

the seriousness with deserves. This Is it an option? This is the answer,

we will continue to work until we gep dhe

we will continue to work until we get the right solution that is in

the best inderest of get the right solution that is in

the best interest of Welsh rugby. We the best hnderest of Wels` rugby. We

are not going to play media games on the best hnderest of Wels` rugby. We

deadlines because the WRU the best hnderest of Wels` rugby. We

deadlines becausd the WRU did the best hnderest of Wels` rugby. We

deadlines because the WRU did not the best hnderest of Wels` rugby. We

set a deadline of December the best hnderest of Wels` rugby. We

sep a deadlane od December 31 the best hnderest of Wels` rugby. We

set a deadline of December 31 and the WRU will not set a deadline of

set a deadline of December 31 and January

set a deadline of December 31 and Jaluary 31.

set a deadline of December 31 and January 31. We will continue to work

set a deadline of December 31 and for what

set a deadline of December 31 and for ghat is

set a deadline of December 31 and for what is best

set a deadline of December 31 and for ghat is best for

set a deadline of December 31 and for what is best for the game in

set a deadline of December 31 and I am still not clear that it is an

I am still not clear th`t it is an option, if these guys walk, you have

oppion, id dhese guys walc, you have a right to set up a new and

oppion, id dhese guys walc, you have The question is whether these guys

will walk got -- these guys will walk?

I will continue to work... I will coltanue to work... Likd a

politician! It is a I will coltanue to work... Likd a

question! It is not about getting stuck in a

question! corner. The real question is where

question! will the

question! wihl the pegions

question! will the regions go?

question! They have said this is an option so

question! if they do, is it an option for

yoq? if they do, is it an option for

you? Yes or no? if they do, is it an option for

With respect, if they do, is it an option for

With respecd, wh`t if they do, is it an option for

With respect, what is the option? if they do, is it an option for

Where are they going to. They if they do, is it an option for

Where are t`ey going to. They have a Where are they going to. They have a

popential Where are they going to. They have a

potential of a champions cup, Where are they going to. They have a

perhaps the option of an pephaps the option of an Anglo-Welsh

league. If they do that, do you have tha right

league. If they do that, do you have the right to set up new teams?

league. If they do that, do you have tha right to set up new teams? The

the right to set up new teams? The Rugbq Football

the right to set up new teams? The Rugby Football Union will not allow

tha Rugby Football Union will not allow

the Welsh regionr Rugby Football Union will not allow

the Welsh regions to join the Aviva premiership.

Thay premiership.

They have a permit structure. They premiership.

have told us. You are wasting time premiership.

talking about something that is not premiership.

going to ha`pen. Very quickly, chairman of

Crosckeys, Very quickly, chairman of

Crosskeys. We are talking about the regions walcing

Crosskeys. We are talking about the regions walking away and Roger has a

poind, where regions walking away and Roger has a

point, where would regions walking away and Roger has a

poind, where would they walk to? regions walking away and Roger has a

point, where would they walk to? We regions walking away and Roger has a

played against Moseley and regions walking away and Roger has a

played against Moseley `nd we regions walking away and Roger has a

Ealing last week, who told us that regions walking away and Roger has a

the championship clubs last regions walking away and Roger has a

Wednesday had a leeting in Wednesday had a meeting in

Birmanghal Wednesday had a meeting in