Preview Six Nations Rugby

A great leader inspires people around them. Five out of five. It is

England's grand slam. Get your own job right, first. O'Driscoll!

Captain fantastic, what a start for Italy. Keep your head up, stand

tall. Protocol has been ripped up. Show you are in control, even when

you're not. Wales are streaking away. The captain's done it again.

Would you believe it? Leadership can be lonely. Don't pretend to know it

all. Trust your team-mates. That is going to be the try of the

championship. A great victory. It's hard to earn respect and so

easy to lose it. They are looking bang up for this,

the Irish. Walk the talk. Be selfless, not a selfish. There is

the happiest man in Scotland. At the start of another

international rugby year, New Zealand remain, even without their

greatest leader Richie McCaw, the dominant force in the world game.

Welcome to, without a shadow of a doubt, the greatest annual rugby

competition in the world, the RBS Six Nations which kicks off here in

Edinburgh with Scotland against Ireland. A at Murrayfield fields to

a caustic Celtic collision. They have been playing rugby at

Murrayfield since 1925, served by trains and trams these days and in

1975 a record 105,000 people were here to see Scotland play Wales.

That's a match that you can see on the BBC in three weeks' time. These

days much more manageable, 68,000, thereabouts, will be here this

afternoon for Scotland against Ireland. It is safe to say amongst

the best seats in the house we are lucky to say they are occupied by

us. Here we are in the far corner of the ground. Good afternoon and

welcome, wherever you may be, pubs, clubs, this country, broad,

wherever. We look forward to what will be an epic few weeks ahead.

Pace yourself, it's a long afternoon and championship ahead. We will

enjoy the company of, amongst others, Jeremy Guscott, Keith Wood,

Chris Paterson and Paul O'Connell. Who has just taken his hat off. We

had a funny joke about the Irish always wearing hats and that's been

blown out of the water in the first minute! As the man who has most

recently been party to this on the field of play, what's it like to be

involved in the Six Nations an owl and ten minutes from kick off? Very

exciting. A different sense of occasions to the autumn

internationals to the Sun International. -- and hour and ten.

With an hour to go, the players are probably on princess street, that is

where the Irish team stay. The young guys have their headphones on, the

old guys are stretching. About 1000 fans outside the door of the hotel

waiting for you to get on the bus and once you on the bus and you go

through the crowd, it's a great feeling. Really nervous feeling. You

know what's coming, you get ready for battle. It really exciting time

in any player's career. When you talk to people in the street, they

say it's amazing how this tournament seems to get bigger and bigger every

year, do you sense that as well? I do. Everyday I think, cannot get any

better, bigger and stronger? Every year I think can it get. Expectation

is the greatest, biggest... Area I can look at. We are all chatting to

friends. What they are thinking about, each team, how it's going to

go. Up to the last minute, they can change their mind. It's brilliant, I

love it all. A Scottish perspective? There is a palpable sense, not just

optimism that a real expectation. We haven't had that in the past. There

is optimism every time Scotland take the field, especially at the start

of the championship but after a good autumn some fantastic players

playing critically well for clubs in the domestic leagues it is looking

pretty good. It'll be a tough test. What is the major change to the

format of the Six Nations? Bonus points. It will only be influential

if actually it comes to pass where the matches are seven points

differential is or people start scoring tries. The key element is

the winner going fast and this happens afterwards as a consequence.

-- going first. If you're not a seasoned rugby observer and do not

know the bonus point system, watcher points for a win, not two. One extra

points -- four points for a win. When you lose, you get one bonus

point if you score four tries, irrespective of what the score is.

If it is 78-20 but you have scored four tries, you get a bonus point.

One bonus point for losing by fewer than seven irrespective of the

school. In terms of the number of points -- the score. One bonus point

for scoring four tries and three points for a grand slam. Do you

think that will have a material impact on who actually wins, March

18? In the history it could have done but I don't think it was

necessary. Six Nations Came out yesterday and they said it was

inherently unfair and may last for one season and then we'll be gone.

They are under pressure to do something to change it up

unnecessarily. In many respects, you kind of like the friction that

happens at the very end, not guessing... I never liked the idea

of a losing bonus point. The idea that if we do really well in the

last five minutes, we may lose by less than seven and that seems like

a good thing. That's a vote against, in favour or against? I'm against

it. I like it. I think for the championship point it will make a

big difference but I'm not sure it will have a bearing on the opening

weekend. I thought it would be more that the last couple of games but

Eddie Jones said his team will be absolutely daring and Vern Cotter

said he had options in attack which allows them to continually attack

the opposition. I am not sure. Where are you? I enjoy it. I enjoyed

European cup the last two week, the permutations and calculations, I

enjoyed that when I was a player. I am for it. We will find out over the

next five weekend 's, the next seven weeks. We ought to mention world

rankings. This is the last batch of matches where teams can influence

their position in terms of the draw for the next World Cup. The key

thing, you want to finish in the top That is supposedly gives you an

easier draw when it comes to the World Cup in Japan. The teams have

gotten better, top ten, 12 have been really strong. When you get in at

number eight, you still don't get the best draw. Ireland want to make

sure they are in the top four, they don't want to allow themselves to

drop out of that. But it can play a huge bearing. We've seen big matches

in World Cup that had been set up two of three years beforehand and

that is the instance. They want to win the match but they will have

that in the back of the next hour and ten minutes before kick off at

Murrayfield. We will hear from some of the most influential figures in

the game. These days, none more important than

the referee. Wayne Barnes talks high tackles and law changes.

Richie McCaw offers an All Black perspective on the Six Nations and

the Lions as Warren Gatland having forsaken Wales looks for the players

who can win in New Zealand this summer.

And talking of challenges, Connor O'Shea is the new man in charge of

Italy. Optimism with realism is his philosophy. And we had players like

Conor Murray, the Irish scrum-half will surely be heading off with the

Lions next summer barring injury. Hours will Scottish full-back Stuart

Hogg. Before that, the men in blue and green and the men in white,

there's a Six Nations to be won. England are favourites, 13 matches

in 2016 and 13 wins under currently every Englishman's favourite

Australian, Eddie Jones. We went to Portugal to meet him.

The Six Nations was unfamiliar to you a year ago, did it surprise you,

in a way, that caught you off-guard? I remember someone saying everyone

hates England and they are right, everyone does hate England. But, you

know, in a good sense. There is such traditional rivalry between England,

Ireland, Scotland, Wales. And then you've got the two European

countries. Italy and France. Which provide a different challenge. But I

thought the rugby in the first couple of rounds was pretty

ordinary. It improved towards the last three rounds. One of our major

goals is to hit the Road running this year. To play really well in

the first game. With the injuries England have got, perversely, as a

coach, does that give you the opportunity to learn more about your

skills in adapting, so you can keep England moving forward in the right

direction? We are missing two of our biggest ball-carriers, one of our

highest were great players. We've got to put together now, a pack that

won't have those stand-up ball-carriers. We need to do players

to do a bit more. Our ability to get those art of players is crucial. Had

you got anything wrong in the last 12 months that you would admit to?

-- get those out of place. Selection wrong, if you play as well. In every

test you waste on a player is vital. When you go to the World Cup in

2019, everyone knows you need as many experienced players as you can,

every cap counts. That's why you need somewhere between 600 at 800

caps. When I play players in tests that won't make the World Cup, I

feel like I've made a mistake. It is England's grand slam. We've

set the bar high in your first year in charge. How on earth do you

follow that? -- you set. It's nice to be unbeaten but we didn't play

well in that many games. We got some victories, particularly in Australia

but we didn't play well. For me, obviously, we'd like to go through

undefeated this season but I would want us to play somebody go rugby.

It starts with France in the first game of the Six Nations. What about

developing leaders in this team as a target? For this next 12 months?

Well, to get better, there's a couple of things we want to do. One

is to increase the depth of the squad, generally. Two, improve the

fundamental skills of the players, so that... I think the game is

becoming so chaotic, but your ability to adapt is so important.

Therefore, the ability to be skilful is so important. Also, a line with

that. Because the game is becoming more chaotic, you need to have a

greater number of leaders in your team. You go back to the 2003

England team. They had eight or nine guys that you knew, every time they

played a game of rugby, they were going to give everything they had.

They were going to make sure people around them gave everything they

had. They were strong leaders. We don't have that now. Which is not a

criticism of our squad. But it's a place we need to go. What do you see

in Dylan Hartley as a leader that some people might not?

What I like about Dylan is that he is prepared to tell people what to

do. If the team is not doing what we require of them, he's quite happy to

take a team meeting and tell the players. It doesn't matter whether

they are all the players or much younger players he tells them.

That's quite a unique ability -- they are older players or younger

players. Do you feel a bit English, now? After a year in charge? I

certainly love the team. I really love the players. I love working

with them. I'll always be in Australian. But I love coaching

England. What's the best bits that drives you to get up at 6am every

morning, as I know you do? We have a chance to do something to do

something different here. We have the chance to be one of the greatest

England sides, play a different brand of rugby that hasn't been seen

before. Particularly, New Zealand have been dominant for the last

five, six, eight years. Everyone's tried to copy the way they've played

but we want to play our own style of rugby to show you cant beat New

Zealand. -- you can beat New Zealand. Only eight coaches have won

the Rugby World Cup. How much are you consumed by joining that list?

You would love to do it. As a player, you want to win the biggest

trophy. As a coach you want to win the biggest trophy. But the

consequence of coaching well. And putting a good team together. If we

keep developing and keep improving, keep improving the leadership

density of our team, we will be in a position to win the World Cup.

Eddie Jones. That was recorded. Dummett before the curious incident

of the eye in the bathroom. Is this proof positive of the influence

coach can have on players? Coaches are integral to the success of a

team. Each have their own individual and unique style. Sir Clive Woodward

was very much a manager in the style of Rod Macqueen who was there for

Australia, very much business management attitude and looked

towards it, strategic and tactical command he got the good coaches in

to implement his ideas and thoughts on the training paddock and it

worked and was successful. You can use facts and figures to prove

anything, if we look at the percentage records of the coaches

involved in the Six Nations over the course of the next weeks it is

surprising that Joe Schmidt's win record is only 67%. That is two

thirds. You played under so many great coaches and perhaps one or two

you may have reservations about. What are the things you think to

find a good coach? The elements come from being the right coach at the

right time with the right team and sometimes happens too early and

sometimes to light. I had Brian Ashton as a technical coach and

skills coach who was incredible but came at a time when it didn't seem

to fit the bill for Ireland and we had Warren Gatland in 98, the right

guy at the right time to do the job Ireland needed, consistency of

selection. The right coach is the guy who understands what he needs

for that team at that time. What Eddie Jones has done is given the

English team a sense of confidence and belief in themselves to go out

and win. He has a lot of structure as well but he has made them feel

bigger than they were because they were downbeat before coming into

last year's Six Nations. Warren Gatland will be joining us in a few

moments to talk about the Lions and his affiliation to Wales which I'm

sure he hasn't put on the back burner for the next couple of weeks.

What is your take on the pluses and minuses of the people you worked

under? Similar to what has been said already but I wanted to improve, I

was selfish as a player and wanted to coach to make me better, loan a

new skill or improve a skill is what I thought a coach should do. You

will hear it said often a good coach needs good players which I think is

coach, true but any coach should make a player that and it is about

development. -- learn a new skill. A guy called Rob Moffat, who was my

schoolteacher as well as professional coach at Edinburgh,

educating and improvement was key for me. In many ways it's the polar

opposite to Joe Schmidt but in a lot of ways very similar, he seems so

clear in what he believes and what he is saying. That is what I found

when I started working under Joe Schmidt, we got absolute clarity on

what was expected of us on the field. When you have that you are

able to make a really good decisions and can make up physicality. I see

similarities between the approaches. Can you give us an insight into the

minutiae of detail that the best coaches going to and hand over to

you which then improves your performance on the field? One thing

we had with Ireland was we had a very narrow field we were expected

to be good at. A lot of coaches wanted to you to be a jack of all

trades, Joe Schmidt narrows it down and wants players to be world-class

with a very small field of skills which allows you to chase down those

small set of skills every week instead of chasing down a big wide

range of skills. That was a big thing for me towards the end of my

career and made a Matip. Mac massive difference. Stopped practising drop

kicking and that kind of thing? Exactly. How good could England be?

I go along the lines of what Eddie said, they haven't reached their

full potential and are not playing their best games but have huge

confidence, 14 wins in a row, big statement. To start off at home

against France is comfortable for them in the arena and surroundings

they are used to. The players that have grown the most that are very

influential, Owen Farrell. Increment elite I think over a season he has

just got better and better. He knocks over those penalties really

in his stride. He is really comfortable. England are good. Given

that a few players are missing and Eddie Jones alluded to that,

nonetheless, the strength in depth of the English Premiership is such

that you almost don't notice some of those players are missing. A big

part of England's strength is their 23, not just their starting 15. Even

with all of the injuries they have had they can dig deep, as you said,

going into the resources and bringing in these players. I look at

the bench, George is still there, Sinckler, Haskell, Danny Care, it is

power and pace and that's the big difference. If you have lots about

in your site you will have a big impact. Talking about injuries, one

of the big red hot issues in rugby at the moment is the incidence of

head injuries and concussions that affect the game, not just on the

international arena but in the club game as well. This is the first Six

Nations under a new directive from the world rugby organisation about

high tackles and what sanctions will be imposed in the event of foul

play. It is not as straightforward as it might seem so we sent Jerry to

talk to Wayne Barnes, one of the most influential figures in rugby,

to talk about what has changed and what has not.

Thank you for coming in today, Wayne. Has been so much chat the

tackle guidelines. Let's get one thing straight from the beginning,

the laws have not changed, have they? It is just the sanctions. Spot

on, nothing has changed from a refereeing perspective, the high

tackle, which was a high tackle going this weekend into the first

and opening game, will have been a high tackle a year ago and a high

tackle ten years ago. The only thing that has changed is the sanction. If

you get sent off or cited rather than getting a two-week ban you

might get a three or four week ban, so the analogy would be the driving

speed limit is still 30 mph, the same, but if you get caught you get

five or six points rather than three. We have some clips here,

let's just have a look through what we have got. We look at this clip, a

player played in the air, Heilan is extremely dangerously and this is a

red card. It's always going to be a red card. He knows what he has done

wrong straightaway, doesn't he? Yes. We want to protect players and make

sure players' heads are protected and this is a way of doing it.

Something else to have a look at, we see players being cleaned out, but

what we are saying is don't go and lead with the shoulder to play on

the floor, so not only in the air but on the floor as well. Is that an

immediate red? That is between a yellow and a red because of weather

contact is, on the body. And if it was on the head? Easily a red card.

Let's look at these tackles, director the head, with force at

speed, that is a red card if you see that during the Six Nations -- where

the contact is. He will get a long ban if he is sent off or cited for

that. Back to the red cards, not as much force on that one, shoulder up

into the head, but we are still talking of a card on this because

the aim is to get the tackles slightly lower. He's already started

high, probably recklessly high to start because he is not tackling low

so that would be a yellow card most days. There is a judgment for you

guys, the difference between accidental and reckless. Yes, when

you get stepped and put out an arm. It is a reflex. If you tickle

someone over the face, or the one over the shoulder, I've heard it

called the seat belt tackle, you get over the top but your arm makes

contact with the head, those are the ones we have to use common sense as

referees and understand some players are trying to make a legitimate

tackle but get it slightly wrong. We discussed that one as a group last

Thursday and we thought that one looked like a penalty. And a similar

one here, South Africa- England game, again, slips up, hits the

shoulder and Brown carries on running, doesn't he? There is that

grey area between the penalty and the yellow. Sometimes between a

yellow and a red. If we have any doubt we will give the benefit to

the player. If we are thinking this might be a red card we are thinking

this might be a red card we're not going to make what is a massive

decision unless we are certain. Wynter players come together we get

head on head clashing, this isn't foul play, this isn't going to be

carded, this isn't going to be penalise. That is just an

unfortunate incident in the game -- when two players. That is still part

of the game, there is still room for the massive legal tangle. That is

why people watch the game, that is not what this is about, it is about

the illegal tackles and direct tackles to the head. We want to see

12 is being tackled. Taking an overview of what we have talked

about? In the past tackles were perhaps aim here and we want to make

them consider coming down a little bit and then run the risk of it

slipping high or hitting high. If they do and looking at those things,

is it foul play? If it is, force and speed and direct to the head. You

will hear those words when discussing it between our team and

hopefully you will understand where our decisions have come from. Thank

you. You were one of the people involved in changing or at least

making this directive. What was the main motivation behind

it? Play at safety or the image of the game? Player safety, one of the

things is the majority of concussions happen in the tackle,

happening to the tackle and most importantly they happen with the

tackle high bringing the tackle at down. If you look at the last

collision between Bastareaud and Sexton, if his tackle was two feet

lower there is no head collision. If Bastareaud is a foot or two lower

that accidental head collision doesn't happen and that is where a

lot of the concussions come from, shoulder to head and head to head.

That is the point of the directive, not to protect the ball carrier as

such, to protect the tackle. That is one of the few issues I have that

instance of a player standing up into the tackle and hitting with his

head and Wayne Barnes said that is just an unfortunate collision but

until such point that that collision level comes down, which is this

directive is trying to lead to, the margin for error on some of those

tackles and some of those sanctions are only an inch or two inches, so

you can hit across the chest with a proper tackle, if a guy dips or

ducks into that accidentally or not accidentally, it can lead to a

higher sanction. The query is as to whether that level has to come lower

still. That is one of them. This is a step towards it. But the nasty

element of this is there are two or three concussions, concussive

incidents, happening every game. That cannot continue so hopefully

this goes some way towards that but it may need to go further in time.

The increased sanction is a warning and the coaches cannot ignore it.

They must coach the players to tackle Lola, they cannot take the

risk. The weight Wayne Barnes described that and summarised the

tackles was excellent. The last one, Buster and Sexton, was maybe country

-- contradictory because he could have gone lower. If you train lower

it will not be an issue. That was a complete accident, this game is

physical. You shouldn't shirk away from confrontation. If Bastareaud or

any player wants to stand tall they should be allowed. One or two people

this week have said the game is going soft, you expect this kind of

comment, it is a physical and confrontational game and this is

making it less so. How could you counter that? It has not gone soft

at all and Bastareaud, if he is two feet lower it is a bigger hit.

Tackle technique, good, accurate, low hard tackles will always give

you that. You spend time with Wayne Barnes. If they implement this to

the law we could have an awful lot of yellow cards which might have a

major impact on the number of points scored in the game in the wake that

matches pan out as a consequence and coaches will be very aware of that.

As Chris has said the coaches have to coach, the way that it should be

tackled by the guidelines, and if anybody steps out, or we want from

the referees is consistency. We don't want one decision is a penalty

and one decision is a yellow for a similar incident. It has to be

consistent. We will see how that pans out during the course of the

championship which we love so much because of the domestic rivalries.

But it is a global event and I'm sure many thousands of people will

stay up into the early hours of Sunday morning to watch this match.

Here is a question, who is the greatest All Black of all-time?

Possibly, probably Richie McCaw and his life story reads like something

from a film script. Twice a World Cup winner, twice a World Cup

captain, and actually as a consequence of that, they have made

a film about it. It's called Chasing Great and chronicles the year up to

the All Blacks winning the World Cup here two years ago.

So Richie McCaw, movie star, you must be thrilled with it, it is a

fantastic watch. All of the feedback has been pretty positive. To give an

insight into what you felt and how you saw things, it wasn't that easy

because it wasn't natural. But I'm really happy I did. When those

moments came, the last time you would play test rugby, it did look

like you were able to just take all that in and absorb the appreciation.

If there is one thing I look back on, it was always going on to the

next thing, you didn't stop and appreciate what the team had done,

or what you had done. I knew the last year I wanted to enjoy it but

also not crawl to the end, I wanted to be there so I was playing like I

had when I was younger. Who do you look at now in world rugby? The

players you enjoyed playing against. You look at it differently when you

are not going to compete against them. I appreciate more what they

do. I know I had some good battles against Sean O'Brien but probably

didn't sit and appreciate what a good player he is, I thought I would

have a tough match playing him next, you sit and appreciate that rather

than thinking how can I stop that guy? It is a different way of

looking at it. Six Nations is upon us and England went the whole of

last year as an unbeaten test side and go into this tournament as the

team to beat. It is quite intriguing. I feel there is very

little between the teams. Even the All Blacks were beaten and the

Australians. It has added spice to the whole thing. You could say

England are the favourites but there are some tough matches when you look

at the Irish and the French, I thought they were quite impressive

in the game against the All Blacks. It won't take much to swing around

again. What do you make of the comments Eddie Jones has come out

with that there aren't enough world-class players in the Six

Nations? I think he's using that as a bit of motivation. He talked about

consistency is what he was meaning to be a top-class player and team

you've got to do it every week. That is obviously what he's aiming for.

Not just happy with what happened last year, that they go and do it

again. There are players who for a British and Irish Lions tour is a

big thing, do they get stoked up about the idea of the Lions coming

down at the All Blacks? Absolutely, it is huge. You get one chance at it

in your career. It is every 12 years for you guys. Yes and the guys are

pretty excited by it. They realise you get one chance and if you blow

it you might not get another go. Nobody more interested in what would

you call was saying more than Warren Gatland. Even when you hear him

talking like that, even you, a seasoned campaigner, as you are, do

you immediately get the sense of excitement in your bones?

Absolutely. I think New Zealand are really excited about the Lions'

tool. It's been 12 years. There's a real sense of anticipation about

potentially what could happen. Particularly after the way the

northern hemisphere teams performed in the autumn. Created more

anticipation. Is it fair to say taking a Lions team to New Zealand

is the biggest challenge any coach can face? It is a huge challenge. It

wasn't until I left New Zealand but I realised and understood what a

difficult country it is to go and tour and play and perform and to

win. It is a huge challenge. Hopefully some of that insight,

knowledge, that those experiences might potentially make that

difference. In your mind, how many of the touring party had you, kind

of, got inked in already? At the moment, there's quite a few.

Look at the performances, particularly Ireland beating the All

Blacks in Chicago. The performances in the autumn. There's probably a

number of players pencilled in at the moment but today's resolve could

turn it upside down. If Scotland win today, France beat England, Wales

lose tomorrow, it's going to create a huge headache for me. On form at

the moment, I would pick a squad of 37, 38, you could probably pencil in

15-20 years on their performances. But results, like I said, individual

performances in the Six Nations will count. How many names are pencilled

into the possible captains' list? A huge amount. No doubt. As Paul

understands. About the captain and the pressures. The thing about the

captain, I will pick the squad first and then I will choose the captain.

The captain will be well aware it is a great honour to be selected in the

Lions but no guarantees. If someone is in your position and playing

better than you, potentially somebody else will play in the tests

and captain the test side. In 2013, we were lucky enough to go to Hong

Kong for a week. We trained hard, but we had a few nights out as well.

There won't be a lot of time for that in New Zealand. How will you

manage... You will have the assistance, players, defence,

attack, line-out. How will you become a team that is really ready

to play for each other, the Test series? It is going to be tough.

Paul, that's the biggest challenge we got at the moment. In terms of

the schedules of the games, I think they're great. 2009, 2013, we won

some games by 60, 70 points, but that is note preparation for the

Test match. In Super Rugby, that is fantastic preparation in terms of

how tough it is. But the first time we assembled on a Sunday after the

Pro12 and the Premiership final, we fly on the Monday at a rival New

Zealand on Wednesday. The first game is on a Saturday. How do you

manufacture that? The best thing for a touring party is to have a couple

of beers together, enjoy yourself. The first night after the game, we

will look to try and... We've got some days off without being stupid.

But we got to try and bond as quickly as we can. Everybody loves a

good conspiracy theory. There is a lot of people who think that you had

influence on Rob Howley in Alun Wyn Jones becoming the Welsh captain

because you see him as your captain in the summer. What would you like

to say to that? That is an absolute conspiracy theory. What I've tried

to do is to make sure that Rob's had autonomy in that role. We talk on a

regular basis but I purposely made sure I'd stayed away from that. He

makes all the calls, the decisions. He spoke to me about Alun Wyn Jones

doing the job and I said it's your call, you've got to... You're in

charge of the team, you've got to run the team. Me trying to step

away, I'm trying to... It's difficult. I'm passionate about

Wales and him doing well but having some neutrality with people thinking

about the selection being fair, unbiased. Everybody has a fair and

equal chance. It will be hard for you to be neutral in Cardiff next

weekend. Will you be screaming "Offside". Well you say "Miss it" if

Owen Farrell has one open in front of the posts? Not at all. My heart

is with Wales. When I was coaching Ireland I was desperate for them to

do well. When I coach the Wasps it was the same, you want them to do

well. And the same with Wales. Of course you want the Welsh team to do

well. Like I just said. My whole focus is on the Lions. Going to New

Zealand and hopefully winning the Test series. This refers to what

Eddie Jones that in the interview earlier on, how he thinks that

England's are going to beat New Zealand if they play in a more

expansive and entertaining fashion and perhaps we normally associate

with them, the pragmatic northern hemisphere approach. We may see one

or two games over the first round of the Six Nations that people are not

exactly adventurous because there is so much at stake in the early stage

of the competition. For the Lions to win in New Zealand this summer, do

you have to be expensive, adventurous, dynamic? I think you

do. The weather conditions in the Six Nations tends to play a bit of a

part in that in terms of the opening rounds. By the end of March, we see

better weather conditions. The point of difference that New Zealand have

is their type five, they think they have a type five that can all catch,

pass, play, play expansively. We need to match them. Look at the

potential of the tight five, players who are great ball-carriers,

dynamic, athletic. I'm really excited about the squad compared to

2013, the amount of choices you've got. When I try to pick squads I'm

scratching my head. There are some real quality players

and will miss out on the squad. It's a great position to be in but they

will be some tough selection. Happy watching over the next few weeks,

great to see you, thank you. Warren Gatland the Lions coach. An

undercurrent to who will lead won't go on the Lions tour throughout this

Six Nations championship. From a coach who is a very seasoned in his

experience in the international arena who one who is cutting his

teeth at the moment, O'Shea in the -- the new man in charge. This will

be his first Six Nations in charge at the helm in Rome.

Life is about changing. Freshening yourself up and experiencing things.

Personally and professionally over the next couple of years, we can

contribute to the start of a renaissance in Italian rugby.

That is the first time we've ever beat in a southern hemisphere side.

To do it gives the younger generation something to aspire to.

It gives some great, great players a memory of a lifetime.

Thank you. We are realistic as well. We know, we are in Rome, it wasn't

built in a day, we are realistic about the challenge that we have

that was pretty special day. We will have some great days, we

will have some tough days, but we're going to get better and better. I

split this job into short, medium and long-term and short-term, to

become competitive, medium-term, be at the next World Cup as a team that

no one wants to play and long-term, hopefully change the system

structure for the better. It is not easy to change everything in second

but Conor and the team and I know that little by little, the team

wants to change. The change starts from us, the national team. We know

that every time we go out and have a good result, it's a really, really

good thing for all of the movement in Italy. Winning is a relevant.

Winning will happen -- winning is irrelevant. Our performance is

everything. That is what we will focus on. I am looking at the first

game thinking that if we go 1-80 and we are still playing, tackling,

chasing, still playing ball in hand after 80 minutes, the result will be

the result. I will get judged, players deliver that, you win. I

think he's a very positive person, he is motivated and excited. Every

time we meet together in camp and even in November, it was a good

three weeks together. It is important to have the player with a

good mentality and positive. We want to focus on doing two or three

things brilliantly and not do ten things averagely. When we have done

two or three things, we will do four and five and then one we've done

that, six and seven. It is an Italian mentality, physical,

passionate, don't be afraid to be that and proud to be that. You can

control your mind. You can control your mindset. You can control what

you're willing to do. I've seen a group of fellows here who need

confidence, they need to be supported. It's very difficult. If I

keep on saying to you, I've said this only time, your bad at your

job, your bad at your job, your bad at your job, I don't know -- don't

like what you did at long last week, it will eat you. When you're on the

pitch, how can you have confidence? A heroic performance by the whole

Italian side. France have squeaked their way to a win. Brendan came

over knowing it was a challenge. Catty has come down, knowing it's a

challenge. Anybody who can get them kicking at international level, it's

about them understanding what to do, how to do it. And get the feel for

the game. Unfortunately, it's down to experience as well and they've

need experience. We've worked heavily on building a relationship

with the players and making them better people. What I've seen over

the past six months, they are willing to change and put the hard

graft in. Whether you will win trophies or not is another question

but it will be a very competitive side, believe me. I played on a team

in the 90s that could have been relegated a few times. I keep on

coming back to it, we will play by the rules, the wheels will be there

for a long time, they will not change in the short-term. -- the

rules. This cannot be a country that rugby would go backwards in, it

would be the biggest disservice to the game. We need to make sure that

Italy becomes a strong rugby nation again at a competitive one. It would

be easy me to, the hearsay, I could name 20-24 of the World Cup squad

that could go to Japan in 2019 and have a lovely time, focus on that

and move on. But there is so much passion and desire to change. We

can't do it quickly because we don't have unlimited resources, we need to

box clever and make peace after peace. At the structures in place to

build to where we want. It's a fascinating challenge -- put in the

structures in place. Hopefully you leave something behind, not just

some wallpaper and a nice win against South Africa, you want some

structure behind it as well and hopefully I can do that as well.

STUDIO: What a fascinating interview with Conor O'Shea. Great for TV as

well. You know him very well, what do you think about the challenge he

is facing and his credibility of confronting it? I think he loves the

challenge. He would have watched Quins, long before he went there, as

director of rugby. He would have seen all the work going at age grade

and academy level, the exact same thing happened in Italy. He watched

all the money in Italian rugby that has been pumped into the youth

teams, under 20 teams, Academy teams in the years passed. Some of the

reasons that Italy are struggling at the moment is that they took their

eye off the ball for the professional structures. They are

having difficulty with that. He saw where the work was done and he would

have seen the players and he would say, I will have a go at this. He

was very expansive as a player but unbelievably pragmatic as a leader,

director. His managerial admin, organisation, incredibly focused. He

is incredibly ambitious. One of the things I would say, there's just no

way in the world he would go there without thinking that he could make

a success of it. I think it will deliver something good out of it.

His hands are very tight. We will see what he can deliver tomorrow

when Italy play Wales in Rome and extensive highlights on that on

rugby special tomorrow tea-time on BBC Two. What about now?