12/09/2014 BBC Newsline

Hello and welcome to this specially extended BBC Newsline.

Ian Paisley - described today as a colossus, a one-off,

He travelled on a political journey that took him from protestor to

statesman, from vowing to smash Sinn Fein to sharing power with them

and befriending the former IRA commander Martin McGuinness.

Our Political Reporter Stephen Walker looks back

We say never! Never! Never! Never in the history of

Northern Ireland has one man stirred such strong

feelings. Loved by some, loathed by others, everyone had an opinion on

Ian Paisley. For decades he became known as Dr No as he resisted all

efforts to share power with nationalists or republicans. Over

time he changed. It was a slow conversion, from throwing snowballs

at a visiting Taoiseach in the 60s to a warm embrace with Bertie Ahern

in Antrim. This was not the biggest

turnaround in the latter years of the Paisley career. These were the

pictures many thought they would never see. The leader of hardline

unionism sitting at Stormont with the leader of republicanism. The DUP

and Sinn Fein together in a power-sharing executive. But it was

a move which unsettled the grassroots and led to the

resignation of Ian Paisley as leader of the church he founded, the Free

Presbyterians. His easy relationship with the Deputy First Minister

Martin McGuinness, they became known as the Chuckle Brothers, was a

further source of unease within the party. By 2008 it was time to go. He

stood down as DUP leader and First Minister. At the time he said he was

going voluntarily but in a BBC interview in January 2014, he

Nigel Dodds said to me, we want you to be gone.

By Friday. I more or less smirked and Peter said, no, no, he needs to

stay in for another couple of months. I sort of laughed. One

wanted two months and the other, I don't know what he wanted.

Paisley's interview showed how strange relations had become with

the party he helped found, and in particular highlighted the tensions

that existed with Peter Robinson, who succeeded him as party leader

party colleagues who said Ian Paisley's collection of events was

Ian Richard Kyle Paisley was born in 1926.

His father was a Baptist minister, his mother was a preacher.

He grew up in Ballymena, a town which was to become

And long before the birth of Paisley the politician,

He delivered his first sermon at a mission hall in County Tyrone

It was the 1960s when politics came to the fore.

Nationalism and republicanism were the enemy and

He believed the Dublin government could not be trusted,

and when the then Taoiseach was invited, Dr Paisley was outraged.

It was proof, if proof were needed, that he was now a religious

We declare our intention from this platform that we will organise

Soon he was elected to Westminster, taking the North Antrim seat.

Then he formed the Democratic Unionist Party and began a long

battle with the Ulster Unionists for the trust of the unionist people.

Politics would never be quite the same again.

He opposed the formation of a power-sharing executive

He was abroad during the early stages

of the loyalist workers strike but was quickly involved on his return.

To his enemies, he was a hate figure,

They pointed to his involvement with Ulster Resistance.

The signing of the Anglo-Irish agreement

in 1985 saw him joining forces with the then Ulster Unionist leader.

They filled Belfast city centre with a protest rally.

They turn for sanctuary from the Irish Republic, and yet Mrs Thatcher

tells us that that Republic must have some say in our province.

The peace process gave fresh impetus to Ian Paisley.

He agreed to go to the multiparty talks at Stormont but when Sinn Fein

were allowed in the following year, the DUP leader walked out.

He came back on the night before Good Friday in 1998 to protest.

The subsequent agreement started a battle for the soul of unionism.

In the vote for the assembly elections

in November 2003, the DUP finally overtook the Ulster Unionists.

Ian Paisley and his wife, Eileen, had five children.

Speaking in a BBC documentary in January 2014,

I am not infallible, I never claimed to be the Pope, I was just

And I have regrets that we are not yet out of the difficulties

But I have also rejoiced in my heart that I kept the faith.

Ian Paisley was big in stature and big in voice.

He was hated and admired in equal measure.

Whilst people will differ on his contribution, all will agree

that over many decades as a preacher and a politician, he

The First Minister and DUP leader Peter Robinson joined me earlier.

Micro he was an international figure. He held the politics of

Northern Ireland for such a long period of time. When he spoke people

listened. He was even tacit human being. It was a career of contrasts.

He was known as Dr No. Then he bought in, with you, to the

restoration of devolution. How will history remember him? This study

would suggest that he had different responses. The question was such

that you could not say yes to it. The Unionists community was fighting

for its very existence. They had few people coming to the aid. When the

IRA cease-fire came along and they accepted the police as the lawful

police service of Northern Ireland then we were in a different

scenario. In those circumstances Ian Paisley was prepared to try and

reach agreements. Those images of sharing a joke with Martin

McGuinness would have been an thinkable at one point. Would it

have been possible without his charisma? Ian Paisley stopped things

happening that would otherwise have happened.

Fifth the Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness said that he came

to look on Ian Paisley as a friend as well as a partner in government.

We have kept in contact since six years ago. We have met at each

other's house, not so very long ago, I had coffee with him and I for a

couple of hours, just the three of us sitting chatting. And I think her

role in all of this is underrated by many people. She was a very powerful

influence around that time. And she is is entitled to credit as anybody

else for the transformation that to place in 2007. It was obvious to me

when I visited him that he was getting weaker. And now he has

passed on. Historians will make their own judgement, some of them

will be very incisive and very critical, as they will be, of all of

us. At the same time, we need to recognise that towards the end of

his life he did something that many people thought he would never do, he

accepted to join in government with me on the basis of equality and when

you think back 40 or 50 years, to what I said earlier, we never would

have comprehended that that time that such a scenario would have

occurred, but it did occur, and credit is due to Ian Paisley for

taking that step. Ian Paisley sparked emotions

of love and hate. His political dominance

and influence has been a constant in the life of Northern Ireland

for five decades. BBC Newsline's Mark Simpson has

been asking people across Belfast News of his death appeared on the

big screen at Belfast City Hall at lunch time. 30 years ago, this was

the scene of his most famous speech. Never, never, never as the nation

Mark today, people here reflected on his political career. He had a long

life. He would have been 88, and you're not going to live much longer

than that. Good and bad points, I suppose. You will always pick out

the bad points of people, but if you look at the whole picture we would

not be here standing and having a peaceful discussion if it had not

been for the Reverend Ian Paisley. He did so much for the people here.

He may have been controversial, but I think, basically, he was a good

man. A bit of a shock, actually. I expect that he will go down in

history books. What az, who knows? In north Belfast, people gave their

views. The above anybody was the man that cause the Troubles here. How

will he be remembered here? As better and evil. He was someone's

father and someone's husband. We did not always agree with his politics,

but sadness for them. Although he was MP for North Antrim for 40

years, he spent much of his career living in east Belfast, close to his

church, close to Stormont, and close to the Unionist heartlands. How is

he remembered here? I met Ian Paisley when I was younger and

winter rally is in the Belfast city centre. He was a legend for the

loyalist community and he will never be forgotten. See all these people

here, they love him, and I do not love him at all. The man was a

maniac. He will be remembered for that never, never, never. The people

will be saddened to lose him. No matter what happened in the end he

was always great to the people here, and he will be a sad loss. In death,

as in life, opinions are divided on Ian Paisley, but most people here

agree that politics here will never quite be the same again.

The Bishop of Down and Connor Noel Treanor said Dr Paisley left an

indelible mark on the history of the relationship between the unionist

All day people have been assessing his legacy

Admired by many for his political and religious convictions, it the

early Ian Paisley was an uncompromising who opponent used his

oratory and influence to stop any talk of sell-out, and that included

1970s-style power-sharing. The overall contribution of his was not

redeemed by his agreement on power-sharing at the end. One also

has to recognise that he was responsible for fuelling community

division and preventing peace coming about, and that is not something

that we should excise out of the history books. He was a rallying

post for those in -- opposed to Dublin involvement in Northern

Ireland. The IRA and the British government and the Irish government

are intent to break the Ulster people. We will not be broken! When

it came time to do a deal, a former Irish premier had no problem

building trust. He was getting older, his health was not as good,

but he was still prepared to take those moves. He could have said, not

for me, someone else can do that, but he didn't. It showed great

political acumen. I certainly found him in negotiations that I was

engaged with from 2000 on, to be a person that you could do business

with. Once he was convinced and once he believed it, he went with it. He

was a dominant political figure but, at heart, he remained a preacher,

and held onto his faith deeply until the end. We recognise that Doctor

Paisley was a man who has left us a tremendous example. He was a man of

great compassion. He learned what it was to weep with them that wet, to

rejoice with them that rejoice. He was an inspiration to all of us, who

were privileged to have known him. Thank you for your support all of

this county today. But he was a contradiction, a man to whom respect

and recrimination flowed. I'm not sure that I pointed a finger and

said that Ian Paisley was the enemy. What people are aware of is that he

had a relentless hostility towards the civil rights movement and

towards any element within it which tried to open up to the Protestant

people. I remember him saying, I heard him saying, "all Republicans,

no matter what they say,", and there is no answer to that. His funeral

will be private, at his family's request, and there will be a public

memorial service, at a later date. Ballymena is the place that became

Ian Paisley's political heartland. He was first elected MP for North

Antrim in 1970 and was succeeded People in the town told Mervyn Jess

how he would be remembered. My arm was saying that it was very

sad. He will be well missed in Ballymena. He was on the television

what, shouting a lot, and getting things done. He was a big man. And

that will be his legacy. He will be well remembered for that. He said

no, and no, but he did not like or want trouble. He has got family of

his own. He had got to look after them like everyone else has to look

after their family. He took his title in the House of Lords,

Bannside, from the area that he dominated for so many years. He was

a charismatic politician. He was, spellbinding oratory was his middle

name. In Parliamentary settles -- sessions, at Orange halls and church

gathering. There is some fondness and regard for the fact that in

later years he did step up to the plate. A lot of people had said that

without him there would not have been an assembly. So whilst people

had their differences with him, they recognise that, in later years, he

was in the business of reconciliation and making the

compromises necessarily to restore government in Northern Ireland. He

was also a minister in a free Presbyterian Church. He joins me, Mr

MacRae, you have lost a friend and mental. Yes, I have lost a great

friend. 47 years ago, a young teenage boy went to Belfast to study

for the ministry. I left the civil service and went into the ministry.

Ian Paisley took me under his wing right away. I became an assistant in

his ministry. And I have been a friend of Ian Paisley for 47 years.

In reality, you think that you are prepared for this moment. But the

moment comes when Ian Paisley has passed on. That certainly breaks my

heart. And I extend to the family circle my sincere sympathy and that

of my family and my constituents. Looking at his political life,

moving into government with Sinn Fein was a step too far, for some.

Remember, Ian Paisley was first and foremost, a preacher. Let us get to

the real man. I have listened to many commentators about him. I knew

him day and night for many of those 47 years. And I know the heart of

the man. He was, first and foremost, a preacher. I would sum up his live

simply and quickly. He loved his Lord, and he loved the saviour. And

he loved the lost. I have seen among bended knees crying to God for

salvation of this land, Holly the United Kingdom and of the sores and

then a woman across the world. And I can tell you, people can have their

own opinions of him. I know that at the heart of that big man was a

heart of love for the souls of men and women and for the land that God

had given him the privilege of being born into. Clifford Smith, some

years ago you wrote a critical biography. What is your view on his

legacy now? Doctor Paisley was a very complex character. Like Willie

McCrea, I pass on my condolences to his family. What will you make Ray

has just said is lovely, and it gets to the heart of the kind of

emotion, power and influence that Doctor Paisley had over his

followers and his friends and those that loved him and followed him. But

there are other aspects to his character that some of the rest of

us found the rest of us boundary difficult to come to terms with, and

to cope with. The most amazing thing about Ian Paisley that has not been

mentioned today, is that a man who, in a certain sense, came from the

sticks, moved from the very fringes, not even involved in politics, to

the position where he became the First Minister of Northern Ireland,

and that was a tremendous achievement, not only for Ian

Paisley, he brought lots of people who would never have thought of

entering politics into the political arena in Northern Ireland. And, in

doing so, he smashed the Ulster Unionist Party and the figure many

that it had had over the politics of Northern Ireland -- the hegemony. We

ended up in a situation where the Unionists negotiated from weakness

rather than from strength. When it comes to relations with the church,

everything was very deeply parted at the end. As far as the church was

concerned, I was a preacher alongside them for all of these

years. I learned from him love of the Lord and love of the things of

God. He was the preacher's friend. Every preacher in the ministry can

contest this fact. If you are in trouble and facing heartache or

trials in your congregation or in your church life, there was no one

who had a bigger heart to pray with you, and love you, more than Ian

Paisley. Was he hurt by what happened at the end? At the end, let

me tell you, even easily has been a preacher, to the end. And there are

many people who seek to paint him in another way. Am -- I am a free

Presbyterians minister, Eileen Paisley, Ilott his memory, I thank

God for him, I thank God for the multiple pools souls that he brought

the Christ. And the church owes a tremendous debt of gratitude for the

stand that he took against the ecumenical movement. He will never,

ever be forgotten. There is another side to this. I

remember sitting outside the Church while Ian Paisley went in to a

brother who had fallen foul of the discipline. He ruled the Church with

an iron discipline. He ruled the party with an iron discipline. In

later years when you were trying to study what was happening, it was

like trying to get into China. When I started to write my book, I

intended to compare the DUP with other Protestant parties in Europe.

But when I got involved in it and got talking to people and discovered

some of the things that had happened to them, there was another side to

Ian Paisley, and we have to face up to the fact that there are aspects

to his career that made life difficult. Not least the pain

inflicted on nationalists. Not least the pain and voted on nationalists,

but also in his latter days there was a break between the free

Presbyterian Church and many of his most ardent followers over the

course that he took in terms of the agreement with Sinn Fein.

Earlier we heard reaction from Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness.

The leaders of the Ulster Unionist Party,

the SDLP and the Alliance Party have also been talking to BBC Newsline.

He had his own party, Church and Orange Order. He was very focused

and determined. We are still on that political journey. We have not got

to where we wanted to go. We have lost another big figure. If we

should do anything politically tonight it is redouble our efforts

to get to the end of that journey. Ian Paisley was divisive. He was

divisive within unionism and between Unionism and nationalism. He charted

a course for himself. His role during the Troubles will perhaps

define him. A lot of people perhaps mellowed in the reviews because of

the work he did in recent times to bring about devolution in 2007. He

stood by what he saw as the necessity for his people and for his

country. He stood for many years opposed to change, and then

recognised the need for change. He was willing to lead his party into

that in a way which was difficult for some former colleagues.

Journalist Peter Taylor - from the BBC's Panorama programme -

interviewed Ian Paisley for many years.

Earlier he told Donna how he would remember him.

I have two memories because there were two Ian Paisleys. The first

memory was the stereotypical Ian Paisley, no surrender, Ulster will

fight. That was the early 1970s. Then there was the new Ian Paisley.

That remarkable transformation that he made. The reasons for that is

that he had the equivalent of a near death experience when he was in

hospital. I think he thought the Lord had asked him to set out on a

new path. There were too Ian Paisleys. Overriding both was that

Ian Paisley that not many people saw, but I saw. Behind the image

perceived by nationalists and republicans as the monster

responsible for the Troubles, which of course he was not, beneath that

was an amusing and charismatic individual. There were too Ian

Paisleys. But the real Ian Paisley was an amalgam of the two. I never

thought I would see him make the journey that he had any more than I

thought I would see Martin McGuinness make the journey that he

did. They were the Alpha Andromeda of the conflict. They were in at the

beginning at opposite sides, and at the end on the same side. Ian

Paisley did not have high regard for journalists. Was that all for show?

I was on the receiving end of Ian Paisley's oratory. I remember in

1974 when he disrupted the new power-sharing executive. I asked and

was he satisfied that he had wrecked the assembly. He told me to get back

to England. I remember he bought me an ice cream when I was filming in

Antrim. I was roundly criticised for portraying Ian Paisley not as the

monster that many wish to see, but as a human being. Our Political

Editor joins us. What are your recollections?

They are contradictory. There were different Ian Paisleys. He was turn

up on his doorstep. You did not know if you would subject you to a tyre

trade about something you had said. -- subject you to a telling off. On

the other hand you could have jovial conversations. I have spent

occasions talking about the benefits of porridge in the mornings. At one

time he made a long speech about bread that he liked. He had a quick

sense of humour. He also had a quick temper.

How do you explain his late conversion to do a deal?

A couple of things. He felt that Sinn Fein had changed. He thought it

was significant that the IRA had disarmed. There was also that brush

with his own mortality, that period of illness that made him feel that

maybe they would not be on this planet many more years and maybe

they would create a different legacy. Also this sense that he had

got to the dominant position that he had cherished within unionism. Only

when he was the main man would he cut a deal.

With another crisis looming at Stormont would it have the

difference if he was still first Minister?

Maybe the charisma would have been able to carry as over some of our

recent problems. That he was never a man further details. We are bogged

down in the details now with welfare, budgeting, and financial

monitoring. He was not have much time for that.

Here is the weather. We have high pressure in charge for the weekend.

The settled weather continues with a lot of dry weather to come. There

will be hideous of cloud coming and going. -- areas of cloud. You might

catch a glimpse of the aurora particularly towards the North.

There is the risk of mist patches. Tomorrow another dry day coming up.

Bright or sunny spells coming through. 85 the across many parts of

Ireland and Britain. -- a fine day across many parts. North Sea coasts

could be dull. For Northern Ireland tomorrow afternoon will be much the

same as the morning. The areas of closed and sunny intervals. Very

similar on Sunday with variable cloud and bright sunny spells. Maybe

feeling fresher. That is all for now on the day that

Ian Paisley died at the age of 88. We say never, never, never.