25/01/2012 BBC Wales Today


25/01/2012

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Welcome to Wales Today. Tonight we are at the Scottish Parliament here

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in Holyrood, asking what moves towards independence might mean for

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Today it became clear that the Scottish people will vote on

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independence in just over two years time. Our First Minister says that

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he would regret seeing Scotland leaving the United Kingdom.

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Scotland's future is a matter for Scotland but the constitutional

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debate is a matter for everybody. We all have an interest in what

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happens to the future of the UK. We will take a whistle-stop tour

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around Britain's centres of power. As well as the Scottish Parliament,

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we will have the reaction from Welsh MPs in Westminster and

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Assembly mentioned -- and Assembly Members.

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Also tonight: Empty properties on run-down high streets.

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A new report on saving our town centres from decline.

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And Wembley, here we come. Its penalty drama as Cardiff City wait

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to hear who they will face in the Cup final.

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Good evening. It is the latest chapter in the history of the

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United Kingdom. Scotland and whether its people want

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independence. This afternoon in the parliament behind me, the First

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Minister, Alex Salmond, revealed the question he wants to put to the

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people of Scotland in over two years time. Beer answer will

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certainly have profound implications for us in Wales. On

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the day a Plaid Cymru politician suggested we might face our own

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referendum on independent in around a decade's time. This beast does

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contain flash photography. Where better than the Great Hall of

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Edinburgh Castle than to Laud the great debate?

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Not a bad place to set out some grand ambitions. Alex Salmond set

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out his plans for Scottish devolution. His plans but ones that

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will have a profound event on the future shape of the UK. Where would

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more devolution for Scotland leave Wales? Valerie was once Alex

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Salmond's 8 in Westminster. She now lives in Cardiff and keeps a close

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watch on Welsh politics. I think is maybe an indication that

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devolution is, as is often said, a process, not an event. Devolution

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has now been in place for almost 12 years and we are seeing that those

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processes, the Kinks are being ironed out. The structures put in

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at first word quite working and his time to revisit those. Does that

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mean independence for Scotland? Further powers for Wales?

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With Scottish independence now a possibility, some would like to

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insulate Wales from creeping separatism, fearing change in

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Scotland will change Wales's relationship with England.

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The implications for Wales are clear. The change in the balance of

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power. Therefore, a question about representation. But what is the

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relationship between Wales and England? Labour has delivered

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majorities in the UK from Scotland as well as Wales. England has a

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natural Tory majority. It will be quite an interesting political

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balance. For better or worse, we have hung

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together as the nation of Britain or the United Kingdom for a very

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long time, hundreds of years. It has seen us through some very

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difficult times. World wars, the defeat of fascism, and I think

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anybody who knows anything about history must feel quite concerned

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about that. Carwyn Jones has already sounded a

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warning that this debate is, as he put it, to Scottish. A fundamental

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change to the way Scotland is governed would mean Wales

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relationships in the UK and its relationship to Westminster, how it

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is funded, would also change. Rhodri Morgan told me it's a

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Scottish road but not one that will affect Scotland alone. -- a

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Scottish vote. Where would it leave Wales and

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Northern Ireland if they vote for independence, I don't know. If

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Scotland those were independent, we are in an impossible situation. We

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need to make sure that question is flashing along the consciousness of

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the average voter before they get to the ballot box.

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And today a time the -- a sign the debate is shifting again with their

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plight Cymru candidate raising the possibility on a referendum for

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independence in Wales within the decade.

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Clearly, we have the vision for Wales to become an independent

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country and the people of Wales will ultimately decide whether to

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choose that past -- to is that part. How ready are the people of Wales

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for change in the United Kingdom? I think it's very happy and healthy

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for the UK. It's what we are all about. Scottish, Irish, English,

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Welsh. I think I would start that -- I

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would rather stay as part of the UK. Here in Scotland, there is a date.

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There will be a referendum in 2014. It is a long way off and

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politicians except there is a number of questions to be asked

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about what yes would mean or devolution would mean for the

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United Kingdom, let alone any detailed answers. Those questions

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will be about Scotland. Despite the answer is having a profound impact

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on the people of Wales. Joining me now is a man who has not just been

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watching events all day, he has been watching them in Scotland for

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many years. The assistant editor of the Scotsman. Was there anything

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unexpected? A lot of the detail, we knew was

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coming. I thought what was profound is we now can foresee a date, a

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month, anyway, when Scotland could potentially become independent. If

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Scots vote Yes in the referendum, by 20th May 16, Scotland could be

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leaving the United Kingdom -- by made 2016.

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Not just be found in Scotland but in England, Northern Ireland and

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Wales. The concern in Wales that the debate is too focused on

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Scotland and an issue which had profound implications on us as well.

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I understand that. I worked in Wales a long time ago but I

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understand the feeling of nationalism being different in

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Wales. I can't see that it won't have huge implications for Wales.

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The constitutional relationship between Wales and the rest of the

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UK will be different. If Scotland does the road for full independence

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but has far greater powers, but will also be the case. Wales has

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just had extra powers but you can't imagine the Welsh and the Northern

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Irish, possibly even the English regions wanting more power.

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Scotland leading the way but we don't know where we are going yet.

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We know where we are going now, to the Assembly in Cardiff Bay and my

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colleague, Vaughan Roderick. It won't surprise you to hear that

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centuries of history has been mentioned here all day today. It's

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a different story in Wales but is that important in this debate?

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I think it is. It is too easy to see Wales as being Scott and light.

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-- Scotland. The history of Wales is different. The relationship with

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different has always been closer and more complex. In Wales Today, a

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huge number of people who live here were born in England and many of us

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live within an easy drive of the English border. Any change in

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Scotland will affect us. Earlier I spoke to the First Minister, Carwyn

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Jones, about how he thought -- Ohio he saw things playing out.

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The polls suggest they wouldn't vote for independence. I would very

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much regret seeing Scotland leave the UK. We regret -- the London

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media sometimes see it as something between England and Scotland but

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Wales and Northern Ireland are also involved and any change on the

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status of Scotland is bound to have an effect not just in England but

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on Wales and Northern Ireland as well.

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Do you feel the UK government has been given -- have been giving due

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weight to Wales and Northern Ireland or have they been acting

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like an English element? I think the debate has been driven

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by Scotland and I think that is unfortunate because it is about the

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whole of the UK. Scotland's future is a matter for Scotland but the

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constitutional debate is a matter for everybody. We all have an

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interest in the future of the UK. If Scotland leaves, how would you

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seek the remaining United Kingdom, whatever you call it, working?

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Would they have to be changes in the relationship?

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Yes, there would. It can't carry on as it has in the past 90 years

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since the Republic of Ireland left. We are a long way from that stage.

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It seems to me the people of Scotland don't want independence.

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The Poles seem to suggest that. There is an appetite for more

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devolution in Scotland but my focus will be on insuring the UK is kept

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together for -- four different nations drawing strength from each

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other for the common good. That was Carwyn Jones. Joining me

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now is David Melding, Conservative am, and plied can reach their,

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Helen Mary Jones. -- and plied country chair.

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I think it gives Britain a new chance to regenerate itself and to

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really advance and insure that the nations of Britain succeed as well

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as the state of Britain itself. What does that mean to you if it

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doesn't mean independence? I think it will mean some form of

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federal state but people can get the birth -- the best of both

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worlds. They can be both Scottish and Welsh and British, they don't

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need to choose their national Celtic identity or whether they

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both want to be in Britain. Helen Mary Jones, we heard a call

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for a referendum in 2020 on independence. Is that any more than

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a foolish dream? I think it could possibly be sooner

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than that. Who better than the people of Wales to decide what we

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need to do to build a strong economy, the Ferrers society we

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know we can have. -- the fairer society. I think the impetus for

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the people of Wales to say, we want to be able to do that, will be much

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stronger. We have always believed to at Plaid Cymru we can build a

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stronger nation. I think this is an exciting time, the same as David

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Melding. Nobody would have thought in March last year that we would be

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debating these issues in Wales. Your colleague David Davies has

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described Britain and the United Kingdom as the Titanic, a matter of

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when, not if. Is he right? No, I have great confidence in the

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future of Britain. We need a really expansive vision that the ancestors

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who built Britain had. This is a challenge, no more than that.

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Thank you. That is it from Cardiff Bay. That's not the only place

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politicians have been reacting. Let's go over to Westminster.

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While the Scottish government has been setting out his plans, the UK

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government is stressing that the power to endorse the result of that

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referendum lies in Westminster. I am joined by the Wales minister,

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David Jones, Roger Williams. Carwyn Jones, there, stressing what

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happens in Scotland has a profound effect on the rest of the UK. Are

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you preparing for a life without Scotland?

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No, we are preparing to fight to keep Scotland within the Union. The

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people of Scotland should have a referendum which is legal, fair and

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decisive. We are pleased to say that Alex Salmond today appeared to

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recognise that he needs to work with the Westminster government in

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order to deliver a legal and fair referendum.

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Is it time to make a case for the union in Wales as well as Scotland?

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I think is time to make the case throughout the kingdom and I was

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pleased to see that Carwyn Jones was stressing the other day that

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Wales and the rest of the UK is much stronger with Scotland. We

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need to make the argument for the union but we need to get the

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process out of the way and get the issue of when and how the issue

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will be fought separately. Roger Williams, the Liberal

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Democrats have always been in favour of a federal United Kingdom

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so you must be quite relaxed? Available Democrat in the coalition,

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we support the right of the Scottish nation to have a

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referendum on this important issue. Along with my little Democrat

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colleagues in Scotland, we will be opposing the break-up of the United

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Kingdom because we believe nations are stronger when they are working

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together. Briefly, the tide seems to be

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flowing away from Westminster in terms of power. Is it going to be

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harder for Welsh MPs like yourself to have your say?

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There are many important things like defence, Farrant -- foreign

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affairs and macro economic issues. Wales will have a major influence

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The debate is certainly alive in Cardiff, Westminster and in

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Edinburgh. I enjoyed by Nicola McEwan from Edinburgh University.

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The question is very blunt. certainly is. Why it was proposed a

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couple of years ago, it was carefully crafted. This one today

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is much clearer, less ambiguous. The UK government called for

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clarity. It is difficult to challenge the clarity. But it will

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require a transfer of competence to be able to ask that question.

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Tonight, there is concern in Wales of the implications. To what extent

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will the Scottish people even think twice about that? You have to be on

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us. I do not think it will pay a super than grown in the campaign --

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significant role in the campaign. I am sure it will have profound

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implications in Wales but I do not think that will play a major part

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in the campaign. But is it for now from the Scottish Parliament. --

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that is it. A clearer national strategy is needed to save our town

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centres from decline. That's according to a report today from

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the Assembly's Enterprise and Business Committee. It says many of

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our high streets are blighted by empty properties and poor shopping

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environments. In all, the committee makes 20 recommendations. Caroline

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Evans reports. Lucy Jenkins is closing down on Saturday. She came

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to Caerphilly two years ago, hoping to expand her flourishing business.

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I cannot afford to stay here any longer. The town has died. It has

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gone. There is nobody here. Business rates are horrendous.

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Around the corner, Eddie Talbot feels equally aggrieved. When the

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committee visited the town today, he wasted no town -- no time

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telling them how things are. I went through the Times of Margaret

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Thatcher and the miners' strike and that was bad but this isn't

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entirely different. His words held no surprises. In Wrexham,

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shopkeepers say trade has moved into the new shopping centres on

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the edge of town. We have the cheap shops, shoe shops, there is nothing

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much in the centre any more. Every business has been affected by an

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outside shopping centre. problem facing our towns is big,

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says the committee chairman. But it is not all doom and gloom.

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financial situation is difficult, it is tight. The Welsh government

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has leavers adits depose will -- at its disposal. It could be just a

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small change to the regime. That could make a difference. In Swansea,

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they have already set up a book does business improvement districts,

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improving measures and taking boarded-up shops and dressing the

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windows to improve the city's image. Free parking has proved a hit. This

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is a complex issue. Some believe we should be pushing cars out of the

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town centre. Others argue what is needed is free parking. The Welsh

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government says each town has unique issues that require

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individual solutions delivered by local people. The government will

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consider and respond to the report in due course. Police are

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continuing to question a 26-year- old man over the murder of a woman

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in Carmarthenshire. The body of 67- year-old Irene Lawless was found at

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her home in Llanllwni on Monday. She's been described by her family

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as a peaceful person and loving mother. Two other men arrested on

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suspicion of assisting an offender have been released on police bail.

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All three were arrested in the Kent area, where Ms Lawless' car was

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also recovered. Opponents of a plan for a new super

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dairy in Welshpool have welcomed the Welsh Government's decision to

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call in the application for review. In November, Powys council's

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planning committee said they were minded to approve the �3.5 million

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scheme to more than double capacity at Lower Leighton farm to 1,000

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cattle. The farmer behind the project says

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he's confident it will eventually go ahead.

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I just feel that obviously they have got tight protocol to follow

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and they have called it in for those reasons but I do feel that

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once they see the true fact, they will see the benefits of this

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application. The Chief Executive of the Wales Millennium Centre in

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Cardiff is to leave his post after less than 18 months in the job.

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Mark Taylor, who was previously the commercial director at London's

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Barbican Centre, says he's leaving to concentrate on business and

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leisure events. A controversial housing development

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on the site of the former Stradey Park rugby ground has been given

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the final go-ahead after a High Court ruling. Planning permission

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for more than 350 homes on the Llanelli site was granted back in

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2007. But campaigners, concerned about environmental damage and the

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risk of flooding, had taken legal action to try and stop the

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development. It has been a long battle and it has been going on for

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almost six years, involving a public inquiry and a number of

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legal Tangiers. The judgment will hopefully bring an end to it --

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legal challenges. Cardiff City manager Malky Mackay will head to

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Anfield tonight to find out whether his side will play Liverpool or

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Manchester City in next month's Carling Cup Final. The Bluebirds

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booked their place at Wembley in a dramatic penalty shoot-out. It's

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the first time the club has ever reached the League Cup final and

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their fourth trip to Wembley in as many years. Here's our sports

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reporter, Ashleigh Crowter. Penalties is a tough way to lose a

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football match but it sure feels good when you win. Goalkeeper Tom

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Heaton couldn't contain himself after Cardiff won last night's

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semi-final shootout. His mistake in the first leg more than made up for

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in the second, with two great stops that sent the Bluebirds to Wembley.

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We have done a great job. We put a list together and at the end -- on

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the night, I had that at the back of my mind and I just went for it.

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It went our way. To be frank, the match should never had to got to

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that point. Cardiff had levelled the tie after only six minutes.

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Crystal Palace goal scorer from the first leg Anthony Gardner heading

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into his own net. From that point there was only one team in it. But

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somehow Palace survived. Even when their captain paddy McCarthy was

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sent off, Cardiff still couldn't score, hitting the woodwork twice

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in extra time and doing everything BUT finding the back of the net. No

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wonder manager Malky Mackay cut a tense and animated figure on the

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touchline. It had looked as if it just wasn't going to be Cardiff's

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night. It goes through your mind but I have so much believe in them.

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There is great character in the team. There is resilience and they

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do not know when to lie down. The crowd tonight played their part and

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really push the team on. The spirit there tonight, a ferret -- a

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thoroughly deserved it. Afterwards, Mackay was quick to celebrate with

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the club's Malaysian owners who now expect interest in Cardiff City to

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soar in their home country. The club's first League Cup final on

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February 26th will be televised around the world where they'll play

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the winner of tonight's semi-final between Liverpool and Manchester

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City. Time now for the weather forecast

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It was mild in Scotland and Wales today. Temperatures in Cardiff and

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Edinburgh up to 11 Celsius. 52 Fahrenheit. But there is a change

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on the way. A cold front over Ireland is heading our way. That'll

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bring rain and introduce colder air. So this evening a spell of heavy

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rain. Lasting a couple of hours. Clearer weather following with a

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few showers. The wind easing once the rain clears and turning colder.

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Lowest temperatures around 2 Celsius with a risk of icy patches.

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Tomorrow's chart shows a trough of low pressure over us and that means

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unstable air, towering clouds and showers. Tomorrow morning you will

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notice the drop in temperature. It will feel noticeably colder. Some

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places will start dry and bright but not everywhere. There will be

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showers around for example in Ceredigion, Carmarthenshire and

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Swansea. The showers will have a wintry flavour. So a mixture of

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sunshine and showers tomorrow. Some heavy showers with hail, thunder

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and sleet. Snow on the hills and mountains above 400 metres. Feeling

0:24:010:24:06

chilly. Temperatures lower than today and breezy, especially along

0:24:060:24:12

the south and west coast. Tomorrow night further wintry showers. Most

0:24:120:24:22

of them in Mid Wales and the north. Friday a few showers. Mainly in the

0:24:220:24:28

north and dying away during the afternoon. As for the weekend. Some

0:24:280:24:32

uncertainty. On Saturday, there is a risk of rain. Sunday may become

0:24:320:24:36

dry and colder. Next week, we could be in for a spell of cold easterly

0:24:360:24:45

That's it from us in Cardiff. Now back to our main story tonight, the

0:24:450:24:47

implications for Wales of Scotland's planned referendum on

0:24:470:24:50

independence. Betsan Powys is at the Scottish Parliament for us

0:24:500:25:00
0:25:000:25:02

tonight. Yes, we've heard a lot from our

0:25:020:25:12

politicians tonight, but what do we all make of this in Wales? Alex

0:25:120:25:16

Salmon says he is not surprised there is interest in Wales. -- Alex

0:25:160:25:24

Salmond. One of the arguments being used in favour of legislative

0:25:240:25:30

powers was that the loss last Assembly wanted to get equivalence

0:25:300:25:40
0:25:400:25:53

with the current powers in Scotland -- National Assembly.

0:25:540:25:58

What do the people of Wales make of all of this? We sent Matthew

0:25:580:26:01

Richards to get a snapshot of opinions in a typical Welsh village

0:26:010:26:04

with a typically English name. Just a few miles from Abergele, St

0:26:040:26:14
0:26:140:26:15

George has a church, a restaurant and a school. Does this St George

0:26:150:26:20

think the Welsh Dragon should seek independence for? Do the residents

0:26:200:26:27

think these children could or should grow up in a separate state?

0:26:270:26:32

We have a Welsh Assembly, people of Wales have their own voice and

0:26:320:26:38

representation. We have not got so much money as opposed to Scotland.

0:26:380:26:42

They are a larger country. By being linked to the UK government still,

0:26:420:26:46

we will still reap the benefits and we would have the best of both

0:26:460:26:50

words -- world. The man in the street also thinks we're better off

0:26:500:26:57

as we are. We are quite happy being part of the British Isles. I do not

0:26:570:27:00

see any massive benefit of leaving England. But the idea of

0:27:000:27:04

independence has given one villager food for thought. My mum and dad

0:27:040:27:10

have lived here all their lives. I would like Independence personally

0:27:100:27:15

but I think we do not have enough money really to sustain it. I liked

0:27:150:27:19

the way they are trying to do it but I think we should stay as we

0:27:190:27:23

are. St George it appears isn't ready to cut its ties just yet.

0:27:230:27:28

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