14/08/2013 BBC World News

World News. Our top stories. Security forces in Cairo are using

bulldozers, tear gas and live rounds to clear camps of pro-Morsi

supporters. The Nahda Square protest camp has been broken up and other

demonstrations are being dismantled. The number of people are reported to

have been killed on both sides. In other stories, Indian authorities

say there have been deaths on a submarine which exploded in Mumbai

we follow developments in the Egyptian capital Cairo, where

security forces have used live ammunition. They have used tear gas

and armoured bulldozers to cleared two camps. That is where the

supporters of the deposed president Mohamed Morsi have been holding sit

in protests for the last two weeks. Clashes between protesters, the

police and military continue outside the Rabaa al-Adawiya Mosque in the

east of Cairo. A Muslim Brotherhood spokesman told BBC News that 600

will have been killed. That is a figure we cannot confirm at the

moment. The authorities are saying seven people have lost their lives.

Demonstrations have also broken out in Alexandra Alexandria and sewers.

Armoured vehicles moved in first thing. The Ministry of interior said

they wanted to avoid bloodshed. The number of dead and injured is

rising. Tear gas has been fired. Tombs of smoke hangover the area.

This is Rabaa al-Adawiya, the biggest of two pro-Morsi camps where

there have been sit ins the two weeks now. Security forces say

actions are ongoing. A small pro-Morsi camp to the West, at Nahda

Square, has reportedly been cleared now. Helicopters fly overhead. They

have been dropping leaflets telling people to leave. But the Muslim

Brotherhood said they also firing direct your people and armoured

vehicles are running over protesters. There is no confirmation

of this. They say dozens have been killed. The world cannot sit back

and watch while innocent men, women and children have been slaughtered.

It is six weeks since the pro-Morsi camps have been set up. His

supporters say his removal why the army was undemocratic. He was in

power for less than a year after people took to the streets to oust

Hosni Mubarak. The Interior Ministry said they would act firmly with

anyone who acts irresponsibly. There are reports of demonstrations taking

place in other Egyptian towns now. As we know, one site has been

cleared. The Nahda Square site. The Rabaa al-Adawiya must protest area

is the other one. James Reynolds is at the scene there.

He sent us this report. The raid has been going on for more than 2.5

hours. The security forces have taken control of main roads towards

the Rabaa al-Adawiya Mosque encampment. I want to show you the

target of where they are trying to get to. The encampment where

pro-Morsi supporters are, we think they are still holding out, is

beyond that black smoke. That black smoke is essentially the burning of

tyres which protesters started when the raid began just after dawn. You

can still hear explosions. Some of those explosions are tear gas. We

felt the sting of tear gas in our eyes. But we have been hearing

intermittent and frequent live firing. It is very clear that the

security forces are still trying to finish the raid on the pro-Morsi

supporters and clear out the area that we cannot see beyond the smoke.

It is very difficult to get a view beyond that smoke. With me now is an

editor of Arab TV. Perhaps we can broaden the picture out now, in

terms of what you have seen happening in the course of the last

few hours. Most people would say we would expect it but like this?

minutes ago, a top cleric made a phone call with the national channel

and he expressed his concerns about violence. At the same time, he said

we are not aware this is going to happen. That is naive at best, isn't

it? He is saying that because he endorsed the road map when it was

announced a few weeks ago in the presence of the Ministry of Defence.

He said he does not want to look like he is sidelining with the

government because there is a lot of bloodshed in the streets. This is on

one side the government spokesman, he also gave a statement saying the

road map will not exclude anyone. He is still opening the little door for

the Muslim Brotherhood. He is saying that the freedom of speech will

began and teed but within the law. It is an easy thing to offer to say

we will not exclude you, you can join us, but after an event like

this, it would be very difficult for the Muslim Brotherhood to accept,

wouldn't it? Definitely. Now there are several clashes in rural areas,

in the Suez canal area. There are other reports of cars being burned

and Lee Station attacked, a number of churches were attacked where the

Muslim Brotherhood are popular -- there are reports of police stations

attacked. Some observers think the violent world decrease at some

point. But we cannot be sure because the Muslim Brotherhood were prepared

for this and they knew something like that could happen. So they

needed to face it. From the point of which the clue to place, if we can

call it a coup, has this development been inevitable? Yes, because the

ceiling that was set between both parties was different. They did not

match in any way. The military or the government could not accept

Morsi to come back as president of Egypt because this was a complete

defeat. On the other hand, the Muslim Brotherhood, they set this

line of the minimum they could accept. I think this was the most

important problem between them. This problem was faced by Ashton and the

US delegation. And all parties who tried to mediate between the

belligerence, if you can see that, so it could not go anywhere. Do you

think, given what we have seen here, this will be repeated, that we

will get more protests cropping up wherever and being broken up in a

similar vein? Moments ago, before I came to the studio, I saw through

social media streams, some demonstrations marching towards the

Rabaa al-Adawiya Square. They are still determined. There are not many

but they are still determined to demonstrate and say no and face the

operation staged by the police and the army. I suppose that is the

case, how many will come out and do that. And how long they can stay.

Thank you. The BBC's Hugh Sykes is one of our correspondents in Cairo.

He is to the side of the mosque protest camp and has been describing

the scene to me. I am a name backstreet which is a

six Lane Hwy. There is simply a coil of barbed wire running right across

the street from one side to the other. There is some black smoke

coming up. There is armoured personnel carriers with soldiers

sitting on top of them with machine guns. Behind those vehicles there is

a big yellow truck with water cannon on the top of it, getting ready in

case this crowd gets too big for them to be able to handle. The crowd

on this side of the barbed wire, about two or 300 at the moment. A

man is weeping for the end of his democracy. There are several blocks

of flats several stories high. Behind that, this huge cloud of

black smoke. It is the kind of smoked iron used to seeing caused by

burning tyres. I do not know what has caused it but that is likely to

be one explanation. It is a considerable cloud of black smoke.

As it drifts up into the sky now it is beginning to obscure the sun.

That is Hugh Sykes. We can bring you some pictures which have coming to

us in the last few moments. It gives you an idea of what the protesters

have been up against. There is tear gas being rolled into the protest

sites, for them to deal with. James Reynolds, our correspondents, you

heard him a few minutes ago, he has said there is live ammunition being

used on occasions as well. And don't forget huge bulldozers pouring into

the protest sites. With me in the studio is Rosemary

Hollis, professor of Middle East studies at city University here in

London. Thank you for coming in. Let's broaden this out a little bit.

We are talking about what looks like a downtrodden Muslim Brotherhood in

Egypt, which is a very big country, but it is not isolated in that

regard, is it? No indeed, and if we go back to the revolution itself in

2011, the Muslim Brotherhood was not in the forefront initially, but

capitalised on a situation which overthrew Hosni Mubarak, who was

essentially there enemy, and they were the most organised of all the

opponents of the old Mubarak regime. Therefore, they did best in the

elections. Morsi himself was running against a former member of

Mubarak's previous government. So it was a no-brainer that he would win

in some senses. But it has given an opportunity to the Muslim

Brotherhood to realise the power that it has been accumulating in

Egypt, over many decades. And they are not going quietly. Now that the

other Egyptians, those committed to some of the original ideals of the

resolution, which do not include brotherhood rule, and of course the

military, who do not want a challenge to their authority. It is

a showdown over power in Egypt with echoes across the region. There is a

ripple effect, you described it as a counterrevolution ripple effect in a

way. With the toppling of Morsi you had enthusiasm coming from Saudi

Arabia who really regard the Muslim Brotherhood as their main challenger

to power in Saudi Arabia itself, in the Gulf region and beyond. I think

this is difficult to grasp from the outside because the Saudi

authorities are also the ones who are supporting the activities of

pretty radical salad fist Muslims, who are in some senses more extreme

than the members of the Muslim Brotherhood. Therefore, that tells

you how they regard the brotherhood, not as fellow Muslims, not as uphold

and is of a Muslim code of conduct, inclusive in politics, but rather

than a rival for power. So if people from further afield than the Middle

East are looking at these pictures, thinking this is an awful scene, but

why should I be bothered, what is the message to them? Opinion is

clearly divided over whether it is appropriate for the military to

clamp down on the brotherhood, in the name of law and order or a

future Egyptian national project and cohesion, and if you regard the

military as the last bastions of the state, then you regard the

brotherhood as a challenge to law and order. However, the fact that

they came to authority through a coup d'etat and toppled an elected

president, means they are not on firm territory themselves. So

opinion is divided over whether you want authority, you want the rule of

law or you want the expression of the people, and all that that might

mean. And we have heard that it is a winner takes all situation.

Presumably, if you are in control as the military all you have control of

the military, then you are the winner, you take all? You will be

but there are repercussions as well. These conflicts and showdowns

are all interconnected in the sense that the Qataris have been acting

some components inclusive of the Muslim Brotherhood, but they are

also backers of the Muslim Brotherhood in the Syrian war, but

the Saudis are not. They are backing alternative horses in these races.

They are also behind the crackdown in Bahrain which is brewing for

another round of violence by the government to suppress

demonstrators. This revolution, counterrevolutionary mood is

ongoing. And the position of the Arabs bring to now, how much of a

detrimental step have the last couple of months been, or do you see

them as detrimental? Fortunes have been reversed in the last couple of

months. Just to make it even more complicated, it is the President of

Syria, Assad, who has cracked down on the Muslim Brotherhood and other

opponents of his regime. However, he enjoys the hostility of almost all

his neighbouring government regimes who, otherwise, are supportive of

the same elements that he is claiming to suppress. In other

words, you need to take case-by-case to understand exactly who is playing

with which force, with which agenda and there is no neat and tidy black

and white dividing lines in any of the societies or indeed across the

region. India, the defence finish has now confirmed a number of crew

have been killed in a huge explosion and fire on a submarine, as it was

berthed as a Mumbai dockyard. The blast took place after midnight,

firefighters spent hours trying to douse the flames. We have been

following developments. This is the naval dockyard in Mumbai where the

submarine that caught fire late last night was docked at. A little past

midnight there was an explosion on it, and that is when the fire broke

out. Now, the neighy has said 18 persons were onboard -- navy,

onboard at the time of the incident. We don't have exact details of

whether the 18 people are safe. But the defence minister has made a

statement in deli,seems to be indicating some lives have been

lost. He is expected to visit Mumbai late later today. As far as the fire

is concerned it was doused four hours after it broke out from

firefighters from the Navy and the local administration. The Navy is

saying the divers are still continuing to search for any

survive, as far as the submarine is concerned, they said it is almost

completely submerged with only a small portion visible over the

water. In grand scheme of Middle East politics how significant will

the release of 26 Palestinian prisoners by Israel prove to be?

They were sent back home where they were met by crowds as they returned

back to the West Bank and Gaza. It is part of a deal to resume the

peace talks. There are meant to be more prisoners to follow.

Amid the darkness, scenes of celebration. Most of these

Palestinian families had waited 20 years to see their loved ones freed

from Israeli jails. A total of 26 men were released, the

first group from over 100 long time prisoner, that Israel's agreed to

send home in the coming months. TRANSLATION: Thank you to the

President. With the support of the Palestinian people, we are released.

Nay have been greeted here as heroes of the Palestinian cause, many

Israelis view them as terrorist, that is why this prisoner release is

adding to the charged atmosphere surrounding the renewal of

negotiations. In Israel, relatives of those killed

by some of the Palestinians being sent home held protests.

Even the Cabinet was divided. Well, I associated against it. The

reason why, they are very simple. You enter negotiations, with full

reciprocity. If you make gestures or concession, you expect the other

side to make something similar. I didn't see the Palestinians doing

anything. This week began with the Israeli Government given final

approval for new settler homes to be built on occupied lands that the

plans want for their future state. As Israeli and Palestinian officials

prepare for fresh talks in Jerusalem, both sides are against

struggling to deal with deep public scepticism, and mutual mistrust.

Let me take you back to the situation in Egypt. Specifically to

the capital Cairo, as these are the pictures we have of the scene. This

is just peripheral to the I think the Rabaa al-Adawiya mosque area,

which is where the second sit in protest site is undersiege according

to the Muslim Brotherhood. That is where they are protesting against

the removal of form former President Morsi and where the police and

military have moved in to clear that site. As for the broader picture, I

have been speak speaking to BBC's Middle East editor to get his

analysis of the events. I think what we are seeing right now is the

consequences of the current violent climate of winner takes all politics

in Egypt. A feeling on both sides, that unless they stick to their

positions, unless they push as hard as they can against the other side,

they potentially risk losing everything. On one side the people

supporting the army's move to ohs President Morsi, it was becoming

something they didn't want. The Muslim Brotherhood s since 1928 have

been trying to take power in Egypt, and they succeeded in an election a

year ago and it got taken away from them, they feel unless they stick to

what they are doing, then, they won't have a chance in the future,

so the middle ground, in terms of trying to get some kind of agreement

about a joint way forward here, some national consensus, doesn't really

exist at the moment. The sorry truth is, if it is winner

takes all, it is people with the hard wear that is going to win,

isn't it? It is, but in a sense it isn't. It depends where the Muslim

Brotherhood are driven underground, and, as they were for many year,

they have had over the years, really severe crackdowns against them, and

they have always come back from them. And at a time as well, when

Joe haddism is e-- Jihadism is a big part of what is happening in the

region, the worry has to be that you can speak to plenty of Muslim

Brotherhood supporters who are reasonable, who abhor violence and

you can think of religious extremist who might decide to jump on this

band wagon and do the kind of things they were doing in the 1990s,

involving a lot of violence, bombs and in some cases outright

massacres. Who is calling the tune, do you think? Is it the military or

the interim President? The military, are in charge. The military are in

charge, the general, the head of the military and the minister of

defence, he is the man who is calling all the orders in this,

there is no question about it. in terms of, I suppose the slightly

bigger picture, is there anything, do you think, I suppose we, our

first reaction is to think about Washington, is there anything that

can be done externally at this stage, to pour water over this?

Well, the Americans pay for the Egyptian military, they give them

$1.3 billion in aid which is mainly military each year. So nay have a

lot of influence with them. I think the Americans will have been saying

if you have to do things don't be too violent about it because it will

look very very bad. This, if the casualty figures which the Muslim

Brotherhood are bringing out, and the BBC we can't confirm them, which

are high, are true, then there will be I think, perhaps a backlash

against the number of casualty, but what this does, I think, is it

doesn't solve the crisis, it deepening it. Middle East editor

Jeremy Bowen a short while ago. Back on the streets of Cairo it has not

just been at the two protest sites there have been incidents. Cliff

Cheney based in the city was in the north of Cairo, he witnessed some

clashes up there, as well. Yes, I am currently watch watching

from a building, and a short while ago I witness witnessed where the

supporters have been camping for about six week, and after the query,

I heard that there were problems and I saw smoke over the area, and so, I

went to look and what I saw was pro-Morsi supporters marching round

a major road, and they were attempting to block a major square

near a mosque, setting fire to tyres in the road. I saw them attack a

small police van. I didn't see what happened to the driver or passenger,

but we saw it burned and we saw something burning in the streets,

before police moved in are from the south, from the direction of the

university. They began shooting shotguns from their armoured vans as

they tersed the neighbourhood. It was clear the riot was just

starting. Do you know what they were firing? I don't Noah time of

ammunition they were firing. The armoured vans are usually used to

deploy teargas, so it is unusual for them to enter the square not firing

tea gas, but immediately they used shotguns. Usually here they use

rubber coated bullet shot or very small bird shot but it was

impossible to tell, until we see if there were injuries reported from

the situation. It does seem that yes, a lot of the focus at the

moment is on the two protest camps but there are issues elsewhere round

the capital? Yes, well the pro-Morsi supporters and the brotherhood

threatened to move their protests to a square in Cairo if the sit-ins

were cleared. This move, I don't think if it was organise or

spontaneous, but there was a convergence of different group

groups on that area, attempting to block off a major traffic artery in

that neighbourhood of Cairo. You are watching BBC World News, we

are following developments for you from Cairo as security forces carry

on their attempts to clear supporters of the ousted President