Lionel Shriver Talking Books

Time for a special programme, talking books with Lionel Shriver.

Hello and welcome to the Hay Festival. People will cover in this

beautiful spot in Wales to listen to the world's finest writers and

thinkers. They will also get a chance to listen in on the

conversations of people from the world of State and screen -- stage.

Music and literature. Let's introduce you to Lionel Shriver.

APPLAUSE Lionel has probably written a look

about it if you name a subject. Parents, are beta T, the more

controversial the better. -- obesity. In this book, we have

dystopian vision of America, the mightiest nation of the planet

brought down, brought low because its people, its government have not

been able to live within their needs and to manage their finances. In the

middle of all that, there is a family, the mandibles, they have

expected this family will be hand-me-down well. -- wealth. That

just disappears. Nothing goes to plan. One of the characters in the

book says that when we talk about a plot in the future, what we are

really referring to is what we fear most in the present. I wondered

whether this kind of chaos in America, this collapse in America,

is the kind of thing you are seriously frightened off now and is

that what Americans are frightened off now? I think it's something that

everyone should be worried about that has a currency that isn't

raised on anything, the gold standard currency in gold. There are

no more gold standard, all currencies are beyond currencies.

They are all ideas which we have to believe and with some frequency, the

ID collapses and people lose faith. -- the idea. Venezuela has an

inflation rate of 700%. Imagine what life is like in that country. I can

see what happens when you get that type of hyperinflation that do you

genuinely fear that this might be a possibility in America? The book is

set in 2029, not so far away, to you think that will happen? Do you think

that Americans genuinely fear that right now? A collapse? Americans

have a lot more to be worried about right now. LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE. I

am interested in sovereign debt and in debt generally. Despite what we

should have learned in 2008, the world is more indebted than

everywhere. From the individual to the sovereign. If you look at that

level of indebtedness, once you cross a certain line, seriously, you

ever going to be paying money back? My question is, if you are dealing

with an enormous amount of money which is never going to be paid

back, is that money real? I'm afraid the answer has to be no, it isn't.

That means our entire international economy is based on fake money.

That's why I don't think that the plot of the Mandibles isn't so

far-fetched. He has to explain to his people what is going on and how

is going to deal with it, how the nation is going to deal with it.

Either the preamble if you like, if you could just read a short passage,

I thought that speech from the President, it pricked the bubble of

exceptionalism that sometimes we think have. Americans He is trying

to carry on as if America is still able to cope with it. This is early

on in the novel so I don't think it is too much of a spoiler. " Good

evening, fellow Americans. During the past week, our nation has once

again been under attack. No towering skyscrapers have tumbled. Instead,

what has been targeting -- targeted is the very medium with which we can

conduct commerce with one another. Our debts are repaid, our tables are

laid and our children are secured medicines for their ailments. What

is at risk is no less than the almighty dollar it self. World

leaders who resent the power, suppressed each and success of our

great nation have cobbled together the so-called bank or. An artificial

pretend currency with no history as legal tender. Make no mistake, the

bank or is no alternative to the dollar. It is meant to replace the

dollar. In a move every bit as threatening as raising a gun to our

heads, we have been in form that the raw materials on which we depend on

for our Leslie Cordes, must be traded. -- livelihood. The United

States Department of the Treasury has also been apprised that American

bonds held by foreign investors may henceforth be sold. It is a

challenge to our very sovereignty to our nation. It is the intention of

the conspiracy of foreign powers to yoke the government of this are lost

to a slant with an entire Law Ball and infeasible encumbrance from the

interest of its best. Debt. Debt was borrowed in good faith and under

anything but the most extraordinary circumstances, would have been

repaid in good faith but when it is returned with malice and betrayal,

continued good faith counts as only as credulity and weakness. What is

more, this great country will not so honour its obligations as to destroy

its very existence in the process. A nation conceived in liberty cannot

conduct its daily business on its knees. As of this evening, this

administration has declared a universal reset. In the interest of

preserving the very nation that would meet its obligations of the

future, we are compelled to put aside the obligations of the past.

All Treasury bills, notes and bonds are forthwith declared null and

void. Many of data has wept in gratitude for the mercy of a wiped

the slate. The right to a second chance. Which, for individuals and

corporations alike, all fair-minded judicial system is like our rain had

enshrined in law. Also, must government, be able to draw a line

and say he would begin afresh. -- here we begin. Our heights

gladdened, confident in the endurance of the greatest country on

earth, God bless you and God bless the United States of America."

APPLAUSE That was frighteningly credible. And it sounded like utter

rubbish. That is the gloss. Interestingly, by the way, he gives

a speech at first in Spanish and then it is translated into English.

Controversially, this first Hispanic and Mexican President. You think

that's incredible? LAUGHTER. Interesting. This event of the US

reneging on its debt sets off a sequence of financial dominoes

which, I believe, is fully credible. When you don't pay your debts back

then nobody wants to loan you money. That's just normal. But the US is

running a big deficit because of all the expenses of Medicare and Social

Security and therefore, in order to cover its deficit, it starts

printing money and therefore, the inflation rate starts going up. What

struck me powerfully and it's one of the things I learned from being a

foreign correspondence, the thing we call civilisation, you just take one

little prop away and the whole thing seems to fall apart. Once you go to

the grocery store and there is either no food or its unaffordable,

life falls apart. That's really all it takes. If you look at the history

of most dystopic novels, there are up almost always set in cities and

that is because cities are horribly and terrifyingly interdependent,

interrelated, everything has to work in order for it to work at all.

Pretty much everything. Once the system is by which we get fed, we

get water, we dispose of our sewerage, are disrupted, then yes,

people get desperate and it changes are that it changes the behaviour

radically. You mentioned Medicare which is what passes for welfare in

America, there are four generations in this family, the eldest Douglas,

they are all having to be looked after, if you like, at some point in

alliance by the State. There is an intergenerational conflict. --

looked after by the state. Also the third and fourth generations who are

also in the book. The novel is definitely looking at the tension

between the division of resources between generations. Both my

parents' generation and my generation are looking to be taking

many more resources than we put in. Mostly because of longevity and the

cost of healthcare. What that means is that the generation behind me and

behind them, there is a double whammy problem because not only are

they going to get taxed up the whazoo in order to pay for my knee

replacements, they are also not going to come into the same state

care themselves. They won't get knee replacements. They will have to

raise the money themselves. This is an insider allusion to my own work.

In the future, you have nursing home shootings, not school shootings.

LAUGHTER. I love that. You obviously did a huge amount of research on the

way the financial system works and what it would take to bring down, as

you suggested. Some people have said too much of that ends up on the

page. Either you feel strongly that it has to be there. I wanted to tell

two different stories simultaneously. One of them is, in

the foreground, what happens to this particular family. I also wanted to

tell a credible future history of will the economy of the United

States. It was important to me that that makes sense. That the sequence

is credible and connected. It means that there is a certain amount of

economics in the mouths of Mike characters and I am sympathetic with

readers. I tried not to overdo it. -- my characters. I think if you put

information in dialogue it can enliven it with passion and with

purpose. In a way that if it is just a flat on the page you do not get.

These are people sitting around the dinner table. In my house, we talk

of this way all the time. It seems completely credible. I have advised

readers who get impatient, if that side of the book doesn't interest

you, skip it. We have a situation where America is

collapsing and people are trying to get out. There were quite like to go

to Mexico, I did use the Mexicans who are worried and put up a wall in

The Mandibles. Yes, in my book, and I did not get this from a certain

someone... LAUGHTER

You would have written this well before. Yes, there is an enormous

fence or wall put up between the United States and Mexico, but Mexico

not only pays for it but put it up. And it is to keep the Americans out.

LAUGHTER If we can digress a little bit from

the book, help us understand, and you alluded to it earlier, what is

going on at the moment? You have Donald Trump talking about building

this wall. He is now through as the Republican Party candidate and will

stand for president. Help us understand what is happening in

America that such a thing might happen? You know, I don't know. I'm

starting to feel I don't spend enough time there. I don't

understand this. If you were to write Donald Trump as a serious

nominee, as a character in a novel, he would not be persuasive. Nobody

would buy it. He is so broad that he is fictionally incredible. He would

never work on the page. Because of the books you have written, things

like We Need To Talk About Kevin, a lot of people are puzzled, what kind

of woman writes these books? I'm told in The Mandibles, there is a

character, a wonderful character, but it isn't anagram of your name.

-- it is. That is correct. I thought this is my 12th novel, and maybe I

can get away with things in my decrepitude I would not have dared

to do when I was young. So I did insert myself deliberately into this

book. Although, at an age when we are the worse for wear, and I had

originally brought in this character, and it is an anagram of

my name, and she is 73 when the book begins. She is a professional writer

or used to be, but she will not write from nothing. There is no

publishing industry any more. She is obnoxious, cantankerous,

opinionated, and tactless. LAUGHTER

Bell-mac the trouble was, I expected to use her just to take the Mickey

out of myself and people like me. She does constant calisthenics,

although her form starts to degenerate, so she does the star

jumps like this. Do you do exercise? Yes, I do.

LAUGHTER What you do? I do star jumps!

LAUGHTER APPLAUSE

I won't ask you to give us an example.

The funny thing is, as I wrote, I meant her to be a figure of fun

exclusively, but I became rather fond of her. I have to say, I don't

agree are giving anything away, you do become fond of her. There are two

characters who come out of this book, and you are very fond of them.

I mentioned Kevin, and I hope you don't mind that we need to talk

about Kevin, sorry about the pan. -- pun. This is a controversial issue

you have taken on, about parenting, any consequences of if you get it

right or wrong. The narrator in Kevin, some of you will have read

it, is either. She says somewhere where she talks about the outrageous

gamble of having a child -- Eva. What does that mean? I think she

says it is like leaving your front door unlocked. Anybody could walk

in. Most people think of that, including the uncertainty, as

something quite attractive. Yes, I admire parents who are willing to

take that gamble. My parents to that gamble, and look what happened. --

took. But it does take an enormous leap of faith to get pregnant,

because my general view of humanity is that you certainly, while parents

have some control, we can at least agree they don't have absolute

control over how their kids turn out. There is a lot about children

that you just accept they turn out that way. Often, it is a lovely

surprise, and those parents are very fortunate. But especially since

publishing We Need To Talk About Kevin, I have spoken to many

parents, and it was very painful when it goes wrong. That book asks

the question, when it does go wrong, how much is it your fault? That is

one of the burdens of parenthood, never knowing how much you do

control. We don't just think about parenting as desirable here, haven't

we got to the stage where we think of it is a right? I have advocated

for a long time I think in order for the NHS to survive, state-sponsored

healthcare systems, they have to shrink their core purpose down to

the curing of disease and disability, but not the curing of

dissatisfaction, and that means errant is not a right. It is an

economic issue. Not because I hate children. -- parenthood is not a

right. What about this idea that actually being human is about being

able, wanting to end being able to, have children? I do think it is a

powerful human drive, which I seem to have been deprived of, and

unsympathetic with it. As a matter of fact, after I published Kevin, I

wrote an essay for the Guardian weekend magazine in which I put

forward a point of view that is completely counter to that book,

which is that if anything, people like me have become too selfish and

two oriented towards our own personal happiness, and under

appreciative of the importance of lineage, of our cultural and he

jetted inheritance. We are not interested in pursuing duty --

patriotic inheritance. We have been become focused on our own personal

satisfaction, which often precludes children. I was advocating the

pursuit of an older and more storeyed sense of human meaning,

which is that we see ourselves as a part of these larger projects, and

we know that lots is come before us, and we hope much will come after us,

and we will do our part to him the button on. -- hand the baton on. It

is a large part of what means to be human, and it is an idea I have

personally failed. I don't have any children. But we have books. We do.

Ladies and judgement, Lionel Shriver.