Browse content similar to John Berger: The Art of Looking. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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The removal of cataracts of the eyes... | 0:00:16 | 0:00:21 | |
..is comparable with the removal | 0:00:23 | 0:00:26 | |
of a particular form of forgetfulness. | 0:00:26 | 0:00:30 | |
Your eyes begin to remember first times... | 0:00:33 | 0:00:39 | |
..and it is in this sense | 0:00:40 | 0:00:43 | |
that what they experience after the intervention | 0:00:43 | 0:00:47 | |
is a kind of visual renaissance. | 0:00:47 | 0:00:51 | |
The unstartling | 0:01:01 | 0:01:04 | |
heterogeneousness of the existent | 0:01:04 | 0:01:08 | |
has marvellously returned... | 0:01:08 | 0:01:11 | |
..and the two eyes, | 0:01:16 | 0:01:19 | |
portcullises now removed, | 0:01:19 | 0:01:24 | |
again and again register surprise. | 0:01:24 | 0:01:30 | |
Tomorrow, it will be three weeks after the operation. | 0:02:09 | 0:02:12 | |
And if I try to sum up | 0:02:16 | 0:02:18 | |
the transformed experience of looking, I'd say it's like | 0:02:18 | 0:02:24 | |
suddenly finding oneself in a scene painted by Vermeer. | 0:02:24 | 0:02:30 | |
The surface of everything you're looking at | 0:02:33 | 0:02:38 | |
is covered with a dew of light. | 0:02:38 | 0:02:42 | |
Ah... | 0:03:38 | 0:03:40 | |
Ah, such a...an endless | 0:03:44 | 0:03:48 | |
storytelling imagination. | 0:03:48 | 0:03:51 | |
HE LAUGHS | 0:05:09 | 0:05:12 | |
I had a dream | 0:05:14 | 0:05:16 | |
in which I was a strange dealer, | 0:05:16 | 0:05:19 | |
a dealer in looks or appearances. | 0:05:19 | 0:05:22 | |
I collected and distributed them. | 0:05:24 | 0:05:27 | |
And in the dream I had just discovered a secret. | 0:05:28 | 0:05:33 | |
I discovered it on my own, no help. | 0:05:34 | 0:05:37 | |
The secret | 0:05:38 | 0:05:40 | |
was to get inside whatever I was looking at, | 0:05:40 | 0:05:45 | |
get inside it. | 0:05:45 | 0:05:47 | |
When I woke up from that dream... | 0:05:52 | 0:05:56 | |
I couldn't remember how it was done... | 0:05:56 | 0:06:00 | |
and I now no longer know | 0:06:00 | 0:06:05 | |
how to get inside things. | 0:06:05 | 0:06:07 | |
I started writing art criticism. | 0:06:14 | 0:06:17 | |
How old was I? I was... | 0:06:17 | 0:06:20 | |
25, 26. | 0:06:20 | 0:06:22 | |
And a great deal of my life up to that moment | 0:06:25 | 0:06:29 | |
had been involved with drawing and with painting. | 0:06:29 | 0:06:33 | |
Kokoschka, as both a man and a painter, | 0:06:34 | 0:06:37 | |
has fascinated me for a long time. | 0:06:37 | 0:06:40 | |
Somehow, when you consider Picasso, | 0:06:40 | 0:06:42 | |
it is the spirit of the man, rather than any single work, | 0:06:42 | 0:06:46 | |
which dominates and is so striking. | 0:06:46 | 0:06:48 | |
The act of looking, for Giacometti, is a form of prayer, | 0:06:48 | 0:06:54 | |
a way of grasping or glimpsing the absolute. | 0:06:54 | 0:06:58 | |
Painting, drawing, | 0:07:00 | 0:07:02 | |
was something that I thought I knew something about, | 0:07:02 | 0:07:07 | |
and therefore the only experience I had really was about looking. | 0:07:07 | 0:07:13 | |
Looking and doing something on paper or in three dimensions | 0:07:13 | 0:07:18 | |
with what one saw, the interrogation of appearances. | 0:07:18 | 0:07:22 | |
There I was about 16, 17, maybe 18, I don't know. | 0:07:54 | 0:07:58 | |
And you were in your... | 0:07:58 | 0:07:59 | |
-Yes. -Um... | 0:07:59 | 0:08:01 | |
And that is... | 0:08:01 | 0:08:03 | |
-That's at Roche Ballue. -Roche Ballue. -I think. -I think so... | 0:08:03 | 0:08:05 | |
-I think it's at Roche Ballue. -I think so, too. | 0:08:05 | 0:08:07 | |
-But we look good, don't we? -Very good. -Both of us. | 0:08:07 | 0:08:10 | |
Very good. | 0:08:10 | 0:08:12 | |
Since you were a small kid, | 0:08:13 | 0:08:17 | |
we used to look at pictures, reproductions together. | 0:08:17 | 0:08:21 | |
In books, on postcards, | 0:08:21 | 0:08:25 | |
and then we would chat about them. | 0:08:25 | 0:08:28 | |
-Exactly. -Um, so here... | 0:08:28 | 0:08:33 | |
This is a little collection of pictures | 0:08:33 | 0:08:37 | |
that could come from our life. | 0:08:37 | 0:08:40 | |
-Let's go on chatting. -Exactly. | 0:08:40 | 0:08:42 | |
Good. You start. | 0:08:45 | 0:08:47 | |
Do you feel like that, sometimes, in the morning? | 0:08:52 | 0:08:56 | |
-SHE LAUGHS -Um... | 0:08:56 | 0:08:59 | |
Not really. | 0:09:00 | 0:09:03 | |
Not really, but I... | 0:09:03 | 0:09:06 | |
I would love to be able to plunge my hand | 0:09:06 | 0:09:10 | |
in such luxurious hair. | 0:09:10 | 0:09:13 | |
I wish I could, but no, I don't. | 0:09:13 | 0:09:17 | |
But do you think that this could be | 0:09:19 | 0:09:22 | |
the head that fits behind this? | 0:09:22 | 0:09:26 | |
HE LAUGHS | 0:09:28 | 0:09:30 | |
-Well, they're both paintings by Courbet... -Mm-hmm. | 0:09:32 | 0:09:36 | |
And...the funny thing is that, looking at this one, | 0:09:38 | 0:09:44 | |
which is called The Origin of the World... | 0:09:44 | 0:09:48 | |
..you don't think about the woman's face. | 0:09:49 | 0:09:53 | |
You don't think about the rest of her. | 0:09:53 | 0:09:56 | |
At the same time, it's not... | 0:09:56 | 0:10:00 | |
it's not sexually provocative. | 0:10:00 | 0:10:02 | |
You're just in the face of... | 0:10:04 | 0:10:08 | |
astounding... | 0:10:08 | 0:10:11 | |
always surprising reality. | 0:10:11 | 0:10:14 | |
In that sense, is it like a naturmort? | 0:10:14 | 0:10:19 | |
Like a naturmort? | 0:10:20 | 0:10:23 | |
No. It's the opposite of a naturmort. | 0:10:23 | 0:10:27 | |
I mean, we could call it the naturvivant. | 0:10:27 | 0:10:31 | |
Huh? SHE LAUGHS | 0:10:31 | 0:10:34 | |
This is the first of four programmes | 0:10:39 | 0:10:42 | |
in which I want to question some of | 0:10:42 | 0:10:45 | |
the assumptions usually made about the tradition of European painting. | 0:10:45 | 0:10:49 | |
Filming this was a moment of great tension for me, | 0:10:49 | 0:10:52 | |
because if John was going to screw it up | 0:10:52 | 0:10:55 | |
there was no way we could repeat it. | 0:10:55 | 0:10:57 | |
Well, this is where a lot of my old films and all this stuff... | 0:10:58 | 0:11:05 | |
Including some... Including, I think... | 0:11:05 | 0:11:09 | |
the original film cans containing the cutting copy of Ways of Seeing. | 0:11:09 | 0:11:15 | |
There it is. Ways of Seeing. | 0:11:25 | 0:11:27 | |
Programmes one and two. | 0:11:30 | 0:11:32 | |
And the old film. | 0:11:34 | 0:11:35 | |
I think the first idea he had was to use an archetypal European painting | 0:11:45 | 0:11:49 | |
as a point of departure | 0:11:49 | 0:11:51 | |
and deconstruct the concept of national heritage - | 0:11:51 | 0:11:53 | |
what did national heritage mean when we talked about national heritage | 0:11:53 | 0:11:57 | |
when we really were talking about the private wealth | 0:11:57 | 0:11:59 | |
of enormous landowners? | 0:11:59 | 0:12:01 | |
The process of seeing paintings or seeing anything else is | 0:12:01 | 0:12:04 | |
less spontaneous and natural than we tend to believe. | 0:12:04 | 0:12:09 | |
A large part of seeing depends upon habit and convention. | 0:12:09 | 0:12:12 | |
All the paintings of the tradition used the convention of perspective, | 0:12:14 | 0:12:18 | |
which is unique to European art. | 0:12:18 | 0:12:20 | |
I remember saying, "Well, | 0:12:20 | 0:12:22 | |
"John shouldn't we just say 'maybe' or 'perhaps' or something?" | 0:12:22 | 0:12:25 | |
He said, "No, no, no, no, you've just got to say it. | 0:12:25 | 0:12:28 | |
"If you say it and somebody disagrees, then they're engaged." | 0:12:28 | 0:12:33 | |
Now, perspective centres everything on the eye of the beholder, | 0:12:33 | 0:12:37 | |
just like a beam from a lighthouse, | 0:12:37 | 0:12:40 | |
only instead of light travelling outwards, appearances travel in, | 0:12:40 | 0:12:44 | |
and our tradition of art called those appearances "reality". | 0:12:44 | 0:12:49 | |
We tried a lot of experiments and, funnily enough, | 0:12:49 | 0:12:52 | |
most of them didn't work terribly well, but one worked amazingly, | 0:12:52 | 0:12:56 | |
when we had the Caravaggio. | 0:12:56 | 0:12:59 | |
-I think it's a man. -I think it's a woman. | 0:12:59 | 0:13:01 | |
I think it's a woman. There's no bristles even. | 0:13:01 | 0:13:04 | |
Yes, but he hasn't got any bristles. | 0:13:04 | 0:13:06 | |
-He's got a moustache. -He hasn't got any bristles. | 0:13:06 | 0:13:09 | |
Well, all of the...no, not quite all, | 0:13:09 | 0:13:11 | |
but most of the boys thought that he was a man and most of the girls, | 0:13:11 | 0:13:16 | |
you thought that she was a woman. | 0:13:16 | 0:13:18 | |
-I'm not sure. -You said she was perhaps both. | 0:13:18 | 0:13:20 | |
'Because they were really looking and really relating what they saw to | 0:13:20 | 0:13:24 | |
'their own experience, | 0:13:24 | 0:13:26 | |
'they recognised something that most adults wouldn't. | 0:13:26 | 0:13:29 | |
'Without knowing the artist's name, | 0:13:29 | 0:13:31 | |
'let alone anything about Caravaggio's life | 0:13:31 | 0:13:33 | |
'or the fact that he was a homosexual, | 0:13:33 | 0:13:35 | |
'they immediately saw how sexually ambivalent | 0:13:35 | 0:13:38 | |
'the principal figure was.' | 0:13:38 | 0:13:40 | |
Caravaggio is, I think... | 0:13:40 | 0:13:44 | |
he's my favourite painter. | 0:13:44 | 0:13:46 | |
I mean, there are paintings by other painters | 0:13:46 | 0:13:51 | |
which perhaps I prefer, | 0:13:51 | 0:13:53 | |
but as a figure, | 0:13:53 | 0:13:55 | |
as a life... | 0:13:55 | 0:13:58 | |
..he is my... | 0:14:02 | 0:14:04 | |
His life is my favourite life of a painter. | 0:14:04 | 0:14:09 | |
Um... And why? | 0:14:09 | 0:14:11 | |
Because he was consistently a rebel. | 0:14:13 | 0:14:17 | |
You cannot predict the impact a series has, and not... | 0:14:17 | 0:14:22 | |
I don't think it occurred to John and myself | 0:14:22 | 0:14:25 | |
the effect the series was going to have, | 0:14:25 | 0:14:27 | |
because it didn't certainly occur to the BBC | 0:14:27 | 0:14:30 | |
that it might have any impact. | 0:14:30 | 0:14:32 | |
To actually suggest at the end of a television film, | 0:14:33 | 0:14:36 | |
"Be critical of what we're telling you," | 0:14:36 | 0:14:39 | |
that was also just something which was just so different. | 0:14:39 | 0:14:44 | |
But remember that I am controlling and using for my own purposes | 0:14:44 | 0:14:48 | |
the means of reproduction needed for these programmes. | 0:14:48 | 0:14:52 | |
The images may be like words, but there is no dialogue yet. | 0:14:52 | 0:14:57 | |
You cannot reply to me. | 0:14:57 | 0:14:59 | |
I hope you will consider what I arrange, but be sceptical of it. | 0:15:00 | 0:15:05 | |
From a very, very early age, | 0:15:06 | 0:15:09 | |
really when I was a small kid at my first school... | 0:15:09 | 0:15:13 | |
..um... | 0:15:15 | 0:15:18 | |
I was... | 0:15:18 | 0:15:20 | |
..sceptical about the world | 0:15:25 | 0:15:29 | |
and what was happening around me. | 0:15:29 | 0:15:32 | |
And...so... | 0:15:35 | 0:15:38 | |
I became a conspirator against it. | 0:15:38 | 0:15:43 | |
And then, now, I think, as soon as I'm really in contact with somebody, | 0:15:45 | 0:15:50 | |
whether I know them very well and love them | 0:15:50 | 0:15:53 | |
or whether it's a stranger, | 0:15:53 | 0:15:55 | |
if there is that common feeling, | 0:15:55 | 0:15:59 | |
I treat them as a fellow conspirator. | 0:15:59 | 0:16:02 | |
As an accomplice? Complicity? | 0:16:02 | 0:16:06 | |
An accomplice, and with a wink. | 0:16:06 | 0:16:10 | |
I propose | 0:16:14 | 0:16:17 | |
a conspiracy of orphans. | 0:16:17 | 0:16:20 | |
We exchange winks. | 0:16:20 | 0:16:22 | |
We reject hierarchies, all hierarchies. | 0:16:24 | 0:16:29 | |
We take the shit of the world for granted... | 0:16:31 | 0:16:35 | |
and we exchange stories about... | 0:16:35 | 0:16:40 | |
ways in which we nevertheless get by. | 0:16:40 | 0:16:43 | |
We are impertinent. | 0:16:45 | 0:16:49 | |
Yes, we are impertinent. | 0:16:49 | 0:16:54 | |
And I guess that I approach | 0:16:56 | 0:16:59 | |
and chat up viewers and readers | 0:16:59 | 0:17:05 | |
in the same way... | 0:17:05 | 0:17:08 | |
as if you too were orphans. | 0:17:08 | 0:17:12 | |
Get what I mean? | 0:17:14 | 0:17:16 | |
I said to him, you know, I knocked the ball to him and I said, | 0:17:17 | 0:17:21 | |
"Well, how can we start? How shall we start?" | 0:17:21 | 0:17:24 | |
And then he said to me, you know, | 0:17:24 | 0:17:27 | |
with a bang, the ball came back, and he said... | 0:17:27 | 0:17:31 | |
"Why don't you just send me a colour?" | 0:17:31 | 0:17:34 | |
And I said, "OK, great," and it was... | 0:17:34 | 0:17:37 | |
But then of course I put the phone down and thought, | 0:17:37 | 0:17:40 | |
"What's he talking about? How am I going to do that?" | 0:17:40 | 0:17:43 | |
Send him a colour, I mean, would I send him... | 0:17:45 | 0:17:49 | |
some powder, I don't know, some coloured powder? What would I do? | 0:17:49 | 0:17:53 | |
So, here we have the very first letter I sent. | 0:18:08 | 0:18:15 | |
"Yesterday I went to a funeral - someone I didn't really know | 0:18:15 | 0:18:19 | |
"very well - and during the service, before the cremation, | 0:18:19 | 0:18:22 | |
"I was looking at the flowers..." | 0:18:22 | 0:18:24 | |
But when I got home I was still thinking about these flowers | 0:18:24 | 0:18:27 | |
and I thought... I posed myself a problem | 0:18:27 | 0:18:30 | |
to try and find the red colour which I liked very much. | 0:18:30 | 0:18:35 | |
I tried to identify it and I went to my watercolour box. | 0:18:35 | 0:18:39 | |
"And so, for no better reason than the memory of those flowers, | 0:18:39 | 0:18:43 | |
"I send you this cadmium red." | 0:18:43 | 0:18:45 | |
And then very soon I got a letter back from him. | 0:18:45 | 0:18:47 | |
BERGER: "Red is not usually an innocent colour... | 0:18:49 | 0:18:54 | |
"but the red you sent me is." | 0:18:54 | 0:18:57 | |
HE CHUCKLES | 0:18:58 | 0:19:00 | |
"It's the red of childhood, | 0:19:00 | 0:19:03 | |
"a pretend red... | 0:19:03 | 0:19:07 | |
"or, if you like, the red of young eyelids shut tight." | 0:19:07 | 0:19:14 | |
It's like the colour, when you're a kid, | 0:19:15 | 0:19:18 | |
when you shut your eyes and look up at the sky, and it's that colour, | 0:19:18 | 0:19:22 | |
that red colour with the blood in your eyelids. | 0:19:22 | 0:19:25 | |
And I thought, "Gosh, that's amazing." | 0:19:25 | 0:19:28 | |
And then of course we went on from that where we were making and making | 0:19:29 | 0:19:32 | |
these different letters and replies. | 0:19:32 | 0:19:35 | |
We didn't start off with a proper list or anything, | 0:19:37 | 0:19:39 | |
I mean the list of colours, "These are the ones we're going to do," | 0:19:39 | 0:19:41 | |
they were very much colours that presented themselves to us. | 0:19:41 | 0:19:45 | |
It was John's question to do with Genevieve being pregnant - | 0:19:46 | 0:19:52 | |
"What colour would you see inside her?" | 0:19:52 | 0:19:55 | |
And so the colour I worked out or thought about was mother of pearl. | 0:19:55 | 0:20:01 | |
And so, look, there's the photo. | 0:20:04 | 0:20:07 | |
Genevieve's... | 0:20:09 | 0:20:11 | |
Where is she? Hold on. | 0:20:11 | 0:20:12 | |
Genevieve's there, this one little figure in the blue dress, | 0:20:12 | 0:20:16 | |
and John described this, | 0:20:16 | 0:20:19 | |
the bay, all the things leading to this figure. | 0:20:19 | 0:20:22 | |
BERGER: "The world is spread out for her. | 0:20:24 | 0:20:30 | |
"The waters break. | 0:20:30 | 0:20:32 | |
"The bay opens. | 0:20:33 | 0:20:36 | |
"The sand is skin-coloured. | 0:20:37 | 0:20:39 | |
"The houses wait, watching. | 0:20:41 | 0:20:44 | |
"I'd name that bay | 0:20:46 | 0:20:49 | |
"Uterus Bay... | 0:20:49 | 0:20:52 | |
"so conscious does it make us aware | 0:20:52 | 0:20:57 | |
"of everything that is within, inside, moving, moving, | 0:20:57 | 0:21:03 | |
"inside that tiny figure of Genevieve." | 0:21:03 | 0:21:07 | |
So they were all things that came from really thinking about, um... | 0:21:11 | 0:21:16 | |
just thinking about the show, I mean, I hadn't even looked at for... | 0:21:16 | 0:21:20 | |
But cos I was writing about it to John, | 0:21:20 | 0:21:23 | |
trying to make something interesting, | 0:21:23 | 0:21:25 | |
I then discovered that things that I hadn't seen at all. | 0:21:25 | 0:21:30 | |
-Now, don't you think it's John's son? -Maybe. | 0:21:31 | 0:21:34 | |
-Johnny? -No, it's you! | 0:21:39 | 0:21:42 | |
-It's not. -It's you! | 0:21:42 | 0:21:46 | |
No, no, no, it's not me. | 0:21:46 | 0:21:48 | |
-No, no. -No? -No, no. Really, really, you're completely wrong. | 0:21:48 | 0:21:52 | |
Look again. It's really not me. | 0:21:52 | 0:21:54 | |
Serious. | 0:21:54 | 0:21:55 | |
Of all the things we've done together, books anyway... | 0:22:16 | 0:22:23 | |
I think I'm proudest of The Seventh Man. | 0:22:23 | 0:22:26 | |
On one hand, it's a book that | 0:22:29 | 0:22:32 | |
we were incredibly precise about, | 0:22:32 | 0:22:36 | |
laying out every page, | 0:22:36 | 0:22:38 | |
-considering every space, every juxtaposition of image... -Mm-hmm. | 0:22:38 | 0:22:42 | |
..seeing exactly where a poem should occur. | 0:22:42 | 0:22:46 | |
So we actually made something with this maximum of concentration, | 0:22:46 | 0:22:52 | |
which, in a certain sense, can be called aesthetic. | 0:22:52 | 0:22:56 | |
And, at the same time, the book, once it's out, | 0:22:56 | 0:23:00 | |
actually goes to its target, that is to say | 0:23:00 | 0:23:05 | |
not really principally to sociologists | 0:23:05 | 0:23:08 | |
but to migrant workers themselves. | 0:23:08 | 0:23:11 | |
What I appreciate in him is that he goes up and down, | 0:24:19 | 0:24:24 | |
I would be tempted to say, like a woman sometimes, | 0:24:24 | 0:24:28 | |
but it's wrong because it doesn't belong only to women | 0:24:28 | 0:24:34 | |
to be so expressive, so warm. | 0:24:34 | 0:24:38 | |
But he's just outspoken. | 0:24:38 | 0:24:40 | |
There are pictures of John as a young man, | 0:24:58 | 0:25:03 | |
like that one, | 0:25:03 | 0:25:06 | |
where he's very strong and certain of himself and... | 0:25:06 | 0:25:12 | |
well, very positive, | 0:25:12 | 0:25:14 | |
but it's more or less the public face he wants to give away, | 0:25:14 | 0:25:19 | |
while in the last ten years | 0:25:19 | 0:25:22 | |
I begin to catch on his face all kinds of other feelings, | 0:25:22 | 0:25:28 | |
a certain anxiety, | 0:25:28 | 0:25:30 | |
also doubts about some of his beliefs. | 0:25:30 | 0:25:35 | |
OK, so here is somebody else travelling, | 0:25:37 | 0:25:40 | |
and I know that this painting counted a lot for you | 0:25:40 | 0:25:43 | |
in your whole life... | 0:25:43 | 0:25:45 | |
-Yes. -Are we approaching motorbikes here? | 0:25:45 | 0:25:48 | |
Yes. | 0:25:50 | 0:25:52 | |
Yes. Yes, yes. | 0:25:52 | 0:25:55 | |
Here we're approaching motorbikes. | 0:25:55 | 0:25:57 | |
Oh! Incredibly. | 0:25:57 | 0:26:02 | |
And if course it's by Rembrandt, | 0:26:02 | 0:26:05 | |
and it is called The Polish Rider. | 0:26:05 | 0:26:08 | |
Who he was, | 0:26:08 | 0:26:11 | |
where he was... | 0:26:11 | 0:26:12 | |
I don't think Rembrandt called it Polish Rider, but... | 0:26:12 | 0:26:17 | |
if I was a manufacturer of motorbikes, | 0:26:17 | 0:26:20 | |
I would call one The Polish Rider. | 0:26:20 | 0:26:23 | |
-Yeah! -Bang! -Use that publicity. | 0:26:23 | 0:26:27 | |
THEY LAUGH | 0:26:27 | 0:26:29 | |
If you're going to survive riding a bike, | 0:27:24 | 0:27:28 | |
you have to be totally concentrated on the here and now, | 0:27:28 | 0:27:34 | |
about everything observed of the here and now. | 0:27:34 | 0:27:38 | |
You don't think about the past, you don't think about the future, | 0:27:38 | 0:27:40 | |
you don't have memories, you don't have expectations, | 0:27:40 | 0:27:43 | |
except the immediate ones which are to be negotiated. | 0:27:43 | 0:27:48 | |
And this concentration on the here and now | 0:27:48 | 0:27:52 | |
is curiously calming. | 0:27:52 | 0:27:54 | |
Because...well, you are alive, you're moving... | 0:27:57 | 0:28:02 | |
..and you notice what you're moving through and that's all that exists. | 0:28:03 | 0:28:09 | |
When my father moved out of London, out of England, | 0:28:57 | 0:29:00 | |
the few things I know just from what I heard of him, | 0:29:00 | 0:29:05 | |
first that he never felt at home in England, and also, politically, | 0:29:05 | 0:29:09 | |
the story of England and the years of Thatcher | 0:29:09 | 0:29:15 | |
and all the conservatism going on there... | 0:29:15 | 0:29:19 | |
Well, he couldn't...he simply... | 0:29:19 | 0:29:22 | |
It was a war, a rather grey, sad war, | 0:29:22 | 0:29:25 | |
and I think at that time, for him, | 0:29:25 | 0:29:28 | |
France, in general, with its history and its politics | 0:29:28 | 0:29:33 | |
- at least at that time - was quite the opposite. | 0:29:33 | 0:29:37 | |
I think he says that he never felt really at home anywhere, | 0:30:07 | 0:30:12 | |
but probably here more than anywhere else, | 0:30:12 | 0:30:16 | |
because of his relations with the people here | 0:30:16 | 0:30:20 | |
which was mostly based upon their work. | 0:30:20 | 0:30:23 | |
When he had this project of writing this trilogy about | 0:31:12 | 0:31:16 | |
the peasant community and this disappearing way of living, | 0:31:16 | 0:31:22 | |
he started to basically offer help to those people and... | 0:31:22 | 0:31:27 | |
..learn from them throughout this help | 0:31:29 | 0:31:33 | |
he was trying to provide in his unexperimented way, | 0:31:33 | 0:31:39 | |
because those people are so rooted with the land, | 0:31:39 | 0:31:43 | |
the place, the time, the season, everything. | 0:31:43 | 0:31:47 | |
I think that maybe made him... | 0:31:47 | 0:31:49 | |
It allowed him to have some roots here. | 0:31:53 | 0:31:57 | |
THEY MIME THE WHOOSHING OF SCYTHES | 0:32:10 | 0:32:14 | |
I was looking at that time for a piece that I was going to make, | 0:32:23 | 0:32:28 | |
and a friend of mine said, | 0:32:28 | 0:32:30 | |
"Oh, but you'll remember what John wrote in Pig Earth. | 0:32:30 | 0:32:34 | |
"Do you remember The Three Lives of Lucie Cabrol?" | 0:32:34 | 0:32:36 | |
And I wrote to John and said, you know, | 0:32:37 | 0:32:40 | |
"Would you consider letting me make this for the stage?" | 0:32:40 | 0:32:43 | |
And John being John said, "Well, of course. | 0:32:45 | 0:32:48 | |
"The only payment I would require | 0:32:48 | 0:32:50 | |
"is if I could come and watch you work at some point." | 0:32:50 | 0:32:55 | |
So then I went up to visit him for the first time in the mountains | 0:32:55 | 0:32:58 | |
with my designer... | 0:32:58 | 0:33:01 | |
..and we walked with John through the mountains, | 0:33:04 | 0:33:07 | |
and he'd showed us the very places which had been inspirational | 0:33:07 | 0:33:11 | |
to him in making Lucie Cabrol, | 0:33:11 | 0:33:15 | |
and that really started what became a very deep friendship. | 0:33:15 | 0:33:20 | |
And so, as a consequence, we've done many, many... | 0:33:21 | 0:33:24 | |
created many pieces together. | 0:33:24 | 0:33:27 | |
You know, the story of Lucie Cabrol, | 0:33:27 | 0:33:29 | |
there was really a woman, and most of the characters in the story are | 0:33:29 | 0:33:34 | |
people I came to know very closely. | 0:33:34 | 0:33:37 | |
And now, to see those lives transported here | 0:33:37 | 0:33:43 | |
and actually speaking to thousands of people who are so, | 0:33:43 | 0:33:48 | |
so far away from the life of peasants in mountain villages | 0:33:48 | 0:33:55 | |
is still something which is very, very mysterious to me. | 0:33:55 | 0:33:59 | |
Lucie Cabrol, who is known as the cocadrille, is dead. | 0:34:12 | 0:34:19 | |
SHE WAILS | 0:34:19 | 0:34:22 | |
In the writing of Into Their Labours, | 0:34:24 | 0:34:26 | |
he holds sort of the generations of all these people who don't... | 0:34:26 | 0:34:32 | |
who are nameless and who had no voice, | 0:34:32 | 0:34:35 | |
who don't exist, really, for us - they've disappeared - | 0:34:35 | 0:34:38 | |
and he brings them to life. | 0:34:38 | 0:34:40 | |
It's a girl! | 0:34:43 | 0:34:45 | |
Generations of labour, | 0:34:45 | 0:34:49 | |
a particularly precarious form of | 0:34:49 | 0:34:55 | |
very, very brutal agriculture. | 0:34:55 | 0:34:59 | |
I might say, "Well, what if we do this?" | 0:35:07 | 0:35:10 | |
and we change it and develop it, | 0:35:10 | 0:35:11 | |
or I might add something | 0:35:11 | 0:35:13 | |
or I'd found something or we missed something and | 0:35:13 | 0:35:15 | |
I would invent something else. | 0:35:15 | 0:35:17 | |
Whatever I suggested, | 0:35:17 | 0:35:20 | |
he would not only consider it or be open to it, | 0:35:20 | 0:35:23 | |
he would be immediately interested. | 0:35:23 | 0:35:26 | |
My father... | 0:35:27 | 0:35:29 | |
mother, brothers, sisters, | 0:35:29 | 0:35:32 | |
cows, horses, rabbits, chickens, goats, | 0:35:32 | 0:35:36 | |
all have gone. | 0:35:36 | 0:35:38 | |
And Lucie Cabrol... | 0:35:41 | 0:35:44 | |
-Is dead. -..is dead. | 0:35:45 | 0:35:48 | |
I say that... | 0:35:49 | 0:35:51 | |
..but I do not altogether believe it... | 0:35:51 | 0:35:54 | |
And I don't altogether believe it. | 0:35:54 | 0:35:56 | |
Sometimes it seems to me... | 0:35:56 | 0:35:59 | |
..that I am nearing the edge of the forest. | 0:35:59 | 0:36:02 | |
I will never again be 16, | 0:36:02 | 0:36:05 | |
and if I am to leave the forest, | 0:36:05 | 0:36:07 | |
it will be on the far side. | 0:36:07 | 0:36:09 | |
..it will be on the far side. | 0:36:09 | 0:36:11 | |
Do I feel this because I am old and tired? | 0:36:11 | 0:36:14 | |
I doubt it. | 0:36:15 | 0:36:17 | |
But there are moments when I see something different... | 0:36:17 | 0:36:20 | |
Moments when a blue sky... | 0:36:21 | 0:36:25 | |
..reminds me of Lucie Cabrol. | 0:36:27 | 0:36:31 | |
For myself, he was my father, not John Berger the writer. | 0:36:39 | 0:36:43 | |
I didn't really notice almost... | 0:36:43 | 0:36:47 | |
..what my father was doing, or I didn't pay any attention anyway, | 0:36:49 | 0:36:54 | |
and I didn't read what he wrote until very, very late. | 0:36:54 | 0:37:01 | |
To think of the people here and the peasants... | 0:37:02 | 0:37:07 | |
the fact that my father was a writer, | 0:37:07 | 0:37:10 | |
and even if he was writing... | 0:37:10 | 0:37:13 | |
about them, they knew that... | 0:37:13 | 0:37:17 | |
but, to consider that as a real work, | 0:37:17 | 0:37:23 | |
that's a bit too much for them. | 0:37:23 | 0:37:26 | |
A week ago, I cleared out and buried the year's shit. | 0:37:33 | 0:37:39 | |
The shit of my family and of our friends who visit us. | 0:37:40 | 0:37:46 | |
Has to be done once a year. | 0:37:46 | 0:37:49 | |
Cow and horse dung | 0:37:49 | 0:37:52 | |
are relatively agreeable. | 0:37:52 | 0:37:54 | |
You could even become nostalgic about them, | 0:37:54 | 0:37:58 | |
even though they smell of fermented grain... | 0:37:58 | 0:38:03 | |
and somewhere on the far side of their smell there's hay and grass. | 0:38:03 | 0:38:09 | |
Chicken shit is disagreeable and rasps the throat | 0:38:12 | 0:38:16 | |
because of the quality of ammonia in it. | 0:38:16 | 0:38:20 | |
Pig and human excrement, however, smell the worst, | 0:38:23 | 0:38:28 | |
because men and pigs are carnivorous | 0:38:28 | 0:38:33 | |
and their appetites are indiscriminate. | 0:38:33 | 0:38:36 | |
Whilst shovelling, images of paradise come into my mind. | 0:38:39 | 0:38:43 | |
But from where I dug the hole, | 0:38:47 | 0:38:51 | |
a lilac tree is coming into flower. | 0:38:51 | 0:38:54 | |
I can smell the lilac through the shit. | 0:38:55 | 0:38:58 | |
It smells of mint | 0:38:59 | 0:39:03 | |
mixed with a lot of honey... | 0:39:03 | 0:39:07 | |
and this perfume takes me back to my very early childhood... | 0:39:07 | 0:39:14 | |
to the first garden I ever knew, | 0:39:14 | 0:39:18 | |
from long before I learnt | 0:39:18 | 0:39:22 | |
lilac or shit had a name. | 0:39:22 | 0:39:26 | |
My mother, Beverley, was... | 0:39:44 | 0:39:48 | |
played a great role in... | 0:39:48 | 0:39:51 | |
..in my father's work, | 0:39:53 | 0:39:56 | |
simply because she did everything else from writing. | 0:39:56 | 0:40:00 | |
She took care of everything which was needed to be done... | 0:40:00 | 0:40:06 | |
for my father to be able just to concentrate on writing. | 0:40:06 | 0:40:11 | |
So that goes from typing what he wrote, | 0:40:16 | 0:40:21 | |
because he writes by hand, | 0:40:21 | 0:40:23 | |
sending it out, | 0:40:23 | 0:40:25 | |
doing all the relation with the publishers and newspapers, | 0:40:25 | 0:40:30 | |
creating the archive gradually, | 0:40:30 | 0:40:34 | |
doing his accounting, his taxes. | 0:40:34 | 0:40:37 | |
And she did that out of... | 0:40:40 | 0:40:45 | |
not only out of love for him, of course... | 0:40:45 | 0:40:50 | |
but I think because both shared the same belief - | 0:40:50 | 0:40:54 | |
the belief that doing that was worth it, | 0:40:54 | 0:40:58 | |
that it brought something which was needed into the world. | 0:40:58 | 0:41:03 | |
She was the first one with whom he shared what he wrote, | 0:41:06 | 0:41:10 | |
and always when he was writing he was waiting for her response. | 0:41:10 | 0:41:15 | |
So they had this very strong complicity. | 0:41:17 | 0:41:21 | |
My father wrote his dedication to her... | 0:41:21 | 0:41:24 | |
"To Beverley, mistress of each page." | 0:41:24 | 0:41:28 | |
And he showed it to her when she was in the bed, | 0:41:29 | 0:41:33 | |
the bed where she died, just next-door, | 0:41:33 | 0:41:38 | |
and that made her very happy to see that dedication. | 0:41:38 | 0:41:42 | |
Since Beverley is gone, my father now mostly lives in Paris, | 0:41:44 | 0:41:49 | |
but we're in very close contact and | 0:41:49 | 0:41:53 | |
there's many ways by which we share | 0:41:53 | 0:41:57 | |
what we're doing. | 0:41:57 | 0:41:59 | |
There, this is a present for you. | 0:42:17 | 0:42:20 | |
I will show it. | 0:42:21 | 0:42:23 | |
Oh! | 0:42:25 | 0:42:27 | |
Wow. | 0:42:31 | 0:42:33 | |
Gosh. This is beautiful. | 0:42:37 | 0:42:39 | |
I think he's going upstream a river. | 0:42:52 | 0:42:54 | |
Yes, indeed. LAUGHTER | 0:42:54 | 0:42:57 | |
Exactly, exactly. | 0:42:57 | 0:42:59 | |
OK? | 0:43:57 | 0:43:59 | |
It was hot, perhaps 28 degrees centigrade, | 0:44:02 | 0:44:06 | |
and it was the end of the month of May. | 0:44:06 | 0:44:09 | |
An old woman with an umbrella was sitting very still | 0:44:11 | 0:44:15 | |
on one of the park benches. | 0:44:15 | 0:44:17 | |
She had the kind of stillness that draws attention to itself. | 0:44:19 | 0:44:23 | |
To whom was it addressed? | 0:44:25 | 0:44:28 | |
Abruptly, abruptly, as I was asking myself this question, | 0:44:28 | 0:44:32 | |
she got to her feet and turned and, | 0:44:32 | 0:44:34 | |
using her umbrella like a walking stick, | 0:44:34 | 0:44:37 | |
came towards me, | 0:44:37 | 0:44:40 | |
and I recognised her walk long before I could see her face - | 0:44:40 | 0:44:45 | |
the walk of somebody already looking forward | 0:44:45 | 0:44:49 | |
to arriving and sitting down. | 0:44:49 | 0:44:51 | |
It was my mother. | 0:44:52 | 0:44:54 | |
"All my books have been about you," I suddenly say. | 0:44:56 | 0:45:01 | |
"Books are also about language, and language, for me, | 0:45:02 | 0:45:06 | |
"is inseparable from your voice, Mother." | 0:45:06 | 0:45:09 | |
"Nonsense. | 0:45:09 | 0:45:11 | |
"Maybe you wrote them so I should be there, keeping you company, | 0:45:11 | 0:45:14 | |
"and I was. | 0:45:14 | 0:45:16 | |
"Yet they were about everything in the world but me. | 0:45:16 | 0:45:20 | |
"I've had to wait until now, until you're an old man in Lisboa, | 0:45:20 | 0:45:25 | |
"for you to be writing this very short story about me." | 0:45:25 | 0:45:30 | |
In The Economy of Death, | 0:46:30 | 0:46:32 | |
you said that the living are at the core of the dead. | 0:46:32 | 0:46:39 | |
They surround us and they depend on us, | 0:46:39 | 0:46:42 | |
like the passage that you read where you meet your mother in Lisbon. | 0:46:42 | 0:46:49 | |
Hmmmmm... | 0:46:49 | 0:46:51 | |
No, I mean, I follow what you mean. | 0:46:51 | 0:46:53 | |
Maybe I suggest that, but it's not really quite what I mean, | 0:46:53 | 0:46:57 | |
it's rather more the other way round. | 0:46:57 | 0:47:02 | |
I mean, it is that... | 0:47:02 | 0:47:04 | |
We need the dead... | 0:47:04 | 0:47:07 | |
Um... | 0:47:08 | 0:47:10 | |
to... um... | 0:47:10 | 0:47:15 | |
To recognise ourselves in any way, | 0:47:17 | 0:47:21 | |
the dead are essential to us. | 0:47:21 | 0:47:24 | |
And... | 0:47:24 | 0:47:27 | |
..that recognition begins with their company in mortality. | 0:47:29 | 0:47:34 | |
Not immortality, mortality. | 0:47:37 | 0:47:39 | |
Paul. It's a very curious painting. | 0:47:40 | 0:47:45 | |
-Isn't it? -Very, very curious. | 0:47:45 | 0:47:47 | |
Do you have anything to tell me about this man? | 0:47:48 | 0:47:51 | |
I think the window is his life... | 0:47:52 | 0:47:56 | |
..and he's trapped in it, | 0:47:58 | 0:48:02 | |
maybe wondering what's outside... | 0:48:02 | 0:48:06 | |
..and when he shuts his eyes... | 0:48:09 | 0:48:11 | |
..the window... | 0:48:13 | 0:48:16 | |
will vanish. | 0:48:16 | 0:48:18 | |
What does he tell you? About himself? | 0:48:37 | 0:48:40 | |
What does he tell me? | 0:48:40 | 0:48:43 | |
-Yeah. -For some reason he tells me that, and I'll tell you why. | 0:48:43 | 0:48:47 | |
Because he actually looks like you and always made me think of you. | 0:48:47 | 0:48:51 | |
And there's something there, too. | 0:48:53 | 0:48:55 | |
Well, I mean, that's too flattering... | 0:48:55 | 0:48:59 | |
-..but his scepticism... -Mm-hmm. | 0:48:59 | 0:49:02 | |
..which is never cynical, | 0:49:02 | 0:49:05 | |
is... | 0:49:05 | 0:49:07 | |
very close to me. | 0:49:07 | 0:49:10 | |
And you know, this is not to claim anything for myself, | 0:49:11 | 0:49:15 | |
but, I mean, that is really the image of the storyteller. | 0:49:15 | 0:49:21 | |
-Mm-hmm. -Huh? | 0:49:21 | 0:49:22 | |
Not the novelist, | 0:49:22 | 0:49:25 | |
not the fashionable literary creator, | 0:49:25 | 0:49:29 | |
but the guy, often nomadic, | 0:49:29 | 0:49:33 | |
who goes from place to place | 0:49:33 | 0:49:37 | |
and tells stories that he has lived or that he's making up. | 0:49:37 | 0:49:43 | |
And that idea of a traveller... | 0:49:43 | 0:49:47 | |
that idea of... | 0:49:47 | 0:49:49 | |
..somebody who is completely free from institutions... | 0:49:52 | 0:49:59 | |
is something also which | 0:49:59 | 0:50:02 | |
is contained for me in this term, storyteller. | 0:50:02 | 0:50:05 | |
And which in all modesty... | 0:50:05 | 0:50:09 | |
I try to be myself. | 0:50:09 | 0:50:11 | |
I do mostly painting and my father mainly draws, | 0:50:17 | 0:50:22 | |
but the reason for that, for him, | 0:50:22 | 0:50:26 | |
he did paint when he was much younger and he went to art school, | 0:50:26 | 0:50:32 | |
then he wanted to become a painter | 0:50:32 | 0:50:35 | |
and he started to work as a painter, | 0:50:35 | 0:50:38 | |
but, from what he says, at some point he felt the urge | 0:50:38 | 0:50:42 | |
to write more important, | 0:50:42 | 0:50:45 | |
more politically, historically important at that point. | 0:50:45 | 0:50:51 | |
Hmmm. | 0:50:58 | 0:50:59 | |
But he kept on drawing. | 0:51:01 | 0:51:04 | |
It's a way of listening, | 0:51:04 | 0:51:06 | |
it's a way of understanding, | 0:51:06 | 0:51:10 | |
discovering the visible. | 0:51:10 | 0:51:12 | |
And I think that's why, in the last years, my father has | 0:51:15 | 0:51:20 | |
done a lot of drawings of | 0:51:20 | 0:51:23 | |
very simple things such as flowers or... | 0:51:23 | 0:51:28 | |
mainly subjects coming from nature. | 0:51:28 | 0:51:32 | |
"Dearest Yves, | 0:51:33 | 0:51:36 | |
"In answer to your last letter, I send two postcards. | 0:51:36 | 0:51:41 | |
"One is a photo | 0:51:43 | 0:51:45 | |
"of a terracotta by Della Robbia... | 0:51:45 | 0:51:49 | |
"..and the second is a sketch, | 0:51:51 | 0:51:54 | |
"primarily what I call a text, of a white rose from the garden. | 0:51:54 | 0:51:59 | |
"I noticed that it had a certain curious echo | 0:52:02 | 0:52:07 | |
"with the photo of the Madonna... | 0:52:07 | 0:52:10 | |
"..something a little similar in mood and rhythm, no? | 0:52:11 | 0:52:14 | |
"You see? | 0:52:14 | 0:52:16 | |
"Neighbours on the same table, that's all. | 0:52:16 | 0:52:21 | |
"And the rose doesn't offer consolation but resists - | 0:52:23 | 0:52:29 | |
"resists by itself the cruelty of life." | 0:52:29 | 0:52:33 | |
During the last week, I've been drawing. | 0:53:08 | 0:53:12 | |
Mostly flowers. | 0:53:12 | 0:53:14 | |
I've been asking myself whether natural forms | 0:53:19 | 0:53:24 | |
- a tree, a cloud, a river, a stone, a flower - | 0:53:24 | 0:53:30 | |
can be looked at and perceived as messages. | 0:53:30 | 0:53:35 | |
Messages, it goes without saying, | 0:53:35 | 0:53:37 | |
which can never be verbalised | 0:53:37 | 0:53:40 | |
and are not particularly addressed to us. | 0:53:40 | 0:53:44 | |
'Is it possible to read | 0:53:46 | 0:53:49 | |
'natural appearances as texts?' Hmm. | 0:53:49 | 0:53:55 | |
Well, that'll be a bit of fun amongst all the pretension. | 0:54:01 | 0:54:05 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:54:05 | 0:54:08 | |
Why don't you have some wine? | 0:54:08 | 0:54:10 | |
-Yes. -We have. -Or some whisky. LAUGHTER | 0:54:10 | 0:54:14 | |
JOHN MAKES A TOAST AND THEY CLINK GLASSES | 0:54:14 | 0:54:18 | |
Wonderful. LAUGHTER | 0:54:18 | 0:54:20 | |
That's incredible. | 0:54:20 | 0:54:22 | |
-It is wonderful. -JOHN LAUGHS UNCONTROLLABLY | 0:54:22 | 0:54:26 |