Episode 10 Dragons' Den


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Episode 10

Budding entrepreneurs pitch business ideas to multimillionaires. The Dragons ponder the investment potential in pop-up inflatable igloos and a meat-free hot dog restaurant concept.


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Tonight on Dragons' Den...

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You name her the Don.

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-I'm happy.

-And then you call Peter Jones the jerk.

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Is that your prediction, that every household in the country

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will own one of those?

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You have now moved into argument mode.

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Take a deep breath and focus on the business.

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You're too niche.

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I think you'll really, really struggle, if I'm being honest.

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Oh, yes! Oh, yes!

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Now we're talking!

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I'm going to make you an offer.

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Welcome to Dragons' Den, a place of aspiration and perspiration,

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where entrepreneurs with big business dreams

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meet our wealthy investors who have big cash to invest.

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First into the Den is Leeds-based Danny Savage,

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an entrepreneur who has a point to prove.

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When I was younger, my headteachers would always either say,

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"You're going to be a millionaire or you're going to end up in jail!"

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That spurs me on to make myself something.

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I'm hoping the Dragons will see my flair and my creative side

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and my drive and determination to succeed.

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Others stand to benefit from an investment today.

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Watching in the wings are his dad Peter, and sales manager James.

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Do your best, Danny.

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I think he'll do really, really well.

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And I think he's investable and I think they'll like working with him.

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"My name is Danny Savage."

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To have the investment is going to take us to the next level.

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It's going to be an escalator rather than the stairs or, you know,

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a lift, rather than a ladder.

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But will the Dragons be prepared to speed Danny's financial ascent?

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# I've been sitting in the corner looking round

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# And I've been watching you

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# Undressing you now with my eyes, you look surprised

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# I'm coming home with you... #

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Peter is not happy, is he?

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Probably because he's getting all the smoke in his face!

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Hello, Dragons! My name is Danny Savage.

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I'm here for £80,000 for a 20% share in Igloo Disco.

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I'd like us to close our eyes and try and replay

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your most memorable party experience. Off you go!

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Time is up.

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My most memorable party experience, I was dressed as a cavalier,

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covered head to toe in mud,

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DJ-ing to 2,000 soaking revellers at Glastonbury Festival

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from an ice cream van.

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It was at this moment I realised that in my ten years of being

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an award-winning club promoter, DJ and event manager,

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that creating amazing party experiences

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is what I was born to do.

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Shortly after, Igloo Disco was born.

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We are now a market leader in unique pop-up events,

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saving our clients time,

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money and stress when planning and delivering parties

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with a unique memorable twist.

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25% of our bookings over the last two years

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have been 18th birthday parties.

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This market is worth £750 million.

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If we were to target just 1% of this niche market,

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this would generate revenue of £1 million.

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Igloo Disco is a family business.

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In our first year, we turned over £80,000,

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with a net profit of £31,000.

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In year two, we turned over £208,000,

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with a net profit of £3,000.

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With the right Dragons investment,

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we plan to strengthen our core operations

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and expand into an ever-growing market. Thank you for your time.

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I'd like to invite you to come up and have a dance, if you like!

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DANCE MUSIC PLAYS

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A cool pitch from igloo entrepreneur Danny Savage.

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He hopes to persuade the Dragons to part with £80,000

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in return for a 20% share of his pop-up party package.

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Is this an igloo for ten-year-olds?

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-For normal-sized people, Peter.

-Oh.

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I don't think this would work for me.

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No.

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It may not be tech giant Peter Jones's natural environment,

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but will the rest of the Den dance to Danny's tune?

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Thanks, Luke.

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-He's great.

-Deborah Meaden takes the lead with the questions.

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I think you might have been hoping for dancing Dragons.

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But there's not an awful lot...

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Not a lot of space in that particular one for dancing.

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Yeah, this is a scaled-down version of what we do.

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I gather, cos I can see from the picture,

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you can have much bigger ones.

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So, just so I understand the business,

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because actually when I first saw it,

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I thought it was going to be the structure

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that you were talking about,

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but, actually, you're an event business?

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-Yeah.

-Yeah?

-With unique structures.

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There's not many people who have these igloos.

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We've found three in the UK.

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We've turned this into a nationwide business.

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We have six different structures.

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It's... One of our main selling points

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is the whole package we provide.

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It's like a pop-up nightclub for your back garden.

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Right. One-stop shop.

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-Yeah.

-"You pay us that much money."

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How much money is that much money?

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Our average job price is £2,500.

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-OK.

-Our biggest structure is £3,295 package.

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In the large one, it holds up to 350 people in the 60 metres.

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Oh, my goodness! That's good value.

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£3,295.

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Much lower cost than your average marquee hire-type thing, isn't it?

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Exactly, yeah.

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A positive start for the party entrepreneur...

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-She likes it.

-She loves it.

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..as leisure industry supremo Deborah Meaden appears impressed

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with his competitive price list.

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Come on, Debbie!

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Global restaurateur Sarah Willingham

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has made millions showing people a good time.

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Will she be equally impressed by his igloo offering?

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I think one of my most memorable party experiences

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was actually in an igloo,

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although I don't remember that much about it in the end.

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But, no, I mean, it's a great concept because actually...

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It's got the wow factor. When people walk in, there are blown away,

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so it's for people that want to impress their guests.

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How do people find you?

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We've got about 20,000 followers on Facebook.

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We advertise in various different places.

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Google ads, Instagram ads.

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-We're everywhere.

-Like, what have you had to spend to get revenue?

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We spend about 1,500 quid a month on advertising.

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If you spend £1,500 in a month...

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-Yeah.

-..what will that result in in turnover?

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20-25 grand.

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So why don't you spend more money on that?

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I mean, there's your £1 million turnover right there.

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The reason we've not invested this in the advertising spend so far

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is because last year was just me, and I'm not a trained marketer.

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It were like we were wasting money.

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This year, I've brought the right team in

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and we've targeted our adverts

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to different audiences and demographics.

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We know what works now.

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Danny continues to work the room as he reveals a good return

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on his social media marketing strategy.

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But tech tycoon Peter Jones isn't in a partying mood.

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I'm assuming that if I wanted to go and hire an inflatable igloo,

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I could do that tomorrow on my own, couldn't I?

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Yeah. Well, yeah.

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So what have you got that is different to the hundreds

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of event companies out there?

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You've got my knowledge of the events industry.

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I've been a consumer, I've been a booker in the venues,

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I've been a DJ, I've been a festival organiser.

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I've been on every angle of this business.

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We've been doing it two years now,

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and no-one's stepped into the market and succeeded at all.

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Yeah, but with respect, Danny,

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you could argue that you haven't succeeded.

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-You've made literally £3,000 in the last 12 months.

-Yep.

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So are you cash positive in the bank?

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At the moment, we've got about 5-10 grand.

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-Any loans?

-The only debts we have are from my dad,

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who lent us 25 grand.

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And I owe myself eight grand.

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So you owe 33,000?

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Right, OK, well, I believe we're on the cusp of a change.

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We dropped a 20 grand deal yesterday for a nationwide company

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to host a festival for 800 of their workforce, so this month,

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we're looking at 40-50 grand turnover.

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But you haven't made any money yet.

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You haven't really proved that you...

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you make money doing this.

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The entrepreneur fails to convince Peter Jones

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that he can make a profit in the pop-up business.

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And now, Touker Suleyman wants to take him to task over his cash flow.

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You just mentioned that you've got £5,000 in the bank.

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-Yeah.

-But surely, if you're taking lots of reservations in advance,

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they're giving you money to hold as a deposit?

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-Yeah.

-How many events have you got lined up for the next 12 months?

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Erm...

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about 30.

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30. So, really, if it was a £2,000 event...

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-Yeah.

-..you should have £30,000 in the bank put to one side, correct?

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Where's the money they've paid you, is where I want to get to.

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The marketing, our sales manager's on a sliding percentage scale

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-of the deal.

-Right.

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The cost for us to acquire each sale works out at roughly 50%.

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So the guy that's booked Christmas already,

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you've spent half his money.

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Yes.

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That's... That's the cost of our sales.

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Well, you should be... No, I'm just concerned

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that a business that should be cash positive is not.

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Yeah.

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It's like, if you have one problem,

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or you have one bill which is out of the ordinary for five, ten grand,

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you won't have any money to continue.

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We... We don't get bills of five, ten grand.

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I think Touker raised a brilliant point, actually.

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Because you... You should be finding ways now

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of utilising that deposit that you get paid upfront

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to fund this business as you grow it going forward.

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-Yeah.

-And I think you'll have a nice living from it.

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Your expertise of knowing what's required I think is really useful.

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Yeah.

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But as an investor, I think it's quite a small opportunity.

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-OK.

-But as a business, I think you'll do very well on your own.

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So I wish you the best of luck, but I'm out.

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Thank you.

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-He's out.

-Other event companies...

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We never wanted you anyway, you lanky beanstalk.

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Danny, I'm a little concerned that you haven't yet demonstrated

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that you know how to make money.

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In fact, you've probably done the opposite.

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You've kind of said, "Look, I can generate revenue,

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-"but I'm not sure how that drops to the bottom line."

-Yeah.

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It's not... It's not...

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For me, I don't see it as an investment.

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-Thank you.

-I'm out.

-Thank you very much.

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Two Dragons down in quick succession as Deborah Meaden joins Peter Jones

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in declining a deal.

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Will Nick Jenkins dig a disco investment?

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These things are really cool and I'm actually genuinely surprised

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at how cheap they are for such a large venue,

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cos otherwise compared with a marquee cost,

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it's really cost-effective.

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But they're not yours.

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I mean, you don't own them. They're...

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They're available, they're out there in the market.

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And in that sector, and I know a little bit about it,

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every once in a while, things like the stretch tents come out

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so a couple of people start doing stretch tents.

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The tipis come out and everyone starts doing tipis.

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So they tend to go in waves, but then, when they're popular,

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everybody just buys them.

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So there is nothing that you own in this that's particularly special.

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-I can't invest in it, so I'm out.

-Thank you.

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Oh, come on, mate.

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Another Dragon turned party pooper as the pop-up disco idea

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failed to win over Nick Jenkins.

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Which way will Touker Suleyman go?

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-Danny...

-Hi.

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..you are the Danny Show.

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As far as I'm concerned, I can't see it being the Danny-Touker Show.

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You know? I think it is a niche business.

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I can't really see how much value I can add.

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I've had my days in discos, I've had a lot of fun.

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And I think I want to leave that to you.

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-I don't think it's an investment for me.

-OK.

-And I'm out.

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A fourth rejection leaves only Sarah Willingham still in.

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Will she offer Danny the capital he's come here to secure?

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I think you've done brilliantly.

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I love the fact that you're hiring your family,

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I love the fact that you've taken your passion and your hobby

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-and you're making a business out of it.

-Yep.

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I think where you are at the moment, it's a very difficult phase.

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It's kind of turning it from a hobby and a concept

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and you're right at that phase where you are now turning it

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into a business and then there's another phase afterwards

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where you can then turn it into an investment opportunity.

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And, actually, that comes probably

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when you're three or four times the size that you are

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and you've actually got a model

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that you're properly starting to roll out.

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So it's not an investment opportunity for me,

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but good luck. But I'm out.

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Thank you. I'd just like to thank you all for your time.

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-Good luck, Danny.

-Good luck.

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So, the party's over in the Den at least

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as the prospect of investing in Danny's Igloo Events company

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leaves the Dragons cold.

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I don't need any motivation to keep going.

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I'll always keep going.

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It's just what I do.

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-All right?

-Well done.

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-You smashed that, though, mate.

-Oh, yeah.

-You absolutely smashed that.

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'I've done every aspect of it.'

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I live and breathe it. If you can find me another me,

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I'll invest in him myself.

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Next up tonight are best friends and business partners

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Jane Yates and Katie McDermott.

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-Love you.

-Love you too.

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When the lift doors open and we see the Dragons there,

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the first thing I think will be -

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walk in a straight line and don't fall over.

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Breathe!

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-And...

-Don't shout out any of their names.

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Like, "Hi, Deborah! Oh, my God!"

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Cos that might happen.

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Hello, Dragons.

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We're Katie and Jane and we're here today to seek investment

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in our meat-free, fast food company Not Dogs,

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meaty dogs without the meat.

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The meat-free market is valued at £785 million a year

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and 40% of the UK population are committed meat reducers,

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vegetarians and vegans,

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who say that the number one issue with a meat-free diet

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-is lack of commercial choice.

-Not Dogs is created by us,

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one vegetarian and one meat reducer,

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who felt frustrated by the lack of trustworthy meaty meals

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and satisfying vegetarian food while out and about.

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Over the past 18 months,

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we've transformed Not Dogs into an award-winning brand,

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travelling up and down the UK to music festivals

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in our little purple food truck.

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We've served up over 10,000 Not Dogs,

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turning over an average of £2,000 in sales revenue per day.

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We have built up a tribe of fans online

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and we've also been invited to Downing Street,

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where we were crowned one of the UK's food stars.

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We have cultivated an exclusive relationship

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with the world's most successful meat-free company, Quorn.

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The Quorn bratwurst that we use to create our Not Dogs

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is exclusive to us in the UK. This year,

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we will launch the first meat-free fast casual restaurant,

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enabling the 28 million meat reducers,

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vegetarians and vegans to get their fast food fix.

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Our first restaurant location will be within the iconic Bullring

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in Birmingham, which welcomes 40 million annual visitors

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and our new home will have direct footfall

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of 130,000 people per week.

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We're here today to seek investment of £75,000

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in return for a 15% share in our proven concept.

0:17:410:17:45

We welcome your questions,

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but first we'd love for you to try your first Not Dog.

0:17:460:17:49

A pitch delivered with relish by business partners

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Jane Yates and Katie McDermott.

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That's for you.

0:17:570:17:58

-Oh, wow.

-It's a big one.

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They want the Dragons to serve up £75,000 in exchange for 15%

0:18:000:18:05

of their vegetarian fast food business.

0:18:050:18:08

Is that really eight inches?

0:18:080:18:10

Promise you. We've actually measured it.

0:18:100:18:13

Might have exaggerated it by a tiny bit.

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But will their offering prove a meaty enough investment opportunity?

0:18:200:18:24

First, though, Peter Jones has a bone to pick with the Not Dog duo.

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I'm quite offended.

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You named Deborah after and call her the Don.

0:18:360:18:39

-I'm happy.

-You do Touker as the ticklish Turkish jokey guy.

0:18:390:18:43

-Yep.

-And then you do, ooh, secret saucy little Sarah.

0:18:430:18:46

-Yeah.

-And that's all lovely. And the Russian rebel, which is Nick.

0:18:460:18:48

Then you call Peter Jones the jerk.

0:18:480:18:51

-No!

-What's that all about?

0:18:510:18:52

I think you know what that's a nod towards.

0:18:520:18:55

-No.

-Reggae Reggae?

0:18:550:18:57

-A business that you might have...

-Jerk sauce?

0:18:570:18:59

-ALL:

-Oh!

0:18:590:19:01

Which would be found in the topping.

0:19:010:19:02

-DEBORAH:

-See?

-You can give puns, but you can't take them.

0:19:020:19:05

-PETER:

-Oh.

0:19:050:19:07

The entrepreneurs successfully placate Jerkin' Jones,

0:19:080:19:12

but the Dragons never stay tame for long

0:19:120:19:14

and Nick Jenkins is finding their market research hard to follow.

0:19:140:19:18

You said there are 28 million veggies or meat reducers.

0:19:230:19:26

-Yes.

-Would you like to back that up?

0:19:260:19:28

The meat reducing trend, so people that maybe have one day a week,

0:19:280:19:33

meat-free Mondays, and they don't include meat for that day,

0:19:330:19:37

or like Katie, reduces it as much as possible a few times a week,

0:19:370:19:42

they are rising and that is why the figures are so high.

0:19:420:19:46

There is a lot of people that do not trust processed meat

0:19:460:19:50

and that is our key customer and that's what we class

0:19:500:19:53

as the meat reducing market.

0:19:530:19:55

Focusing in on this market...

0:19:550:19:57

-Yeah.

-..how many vegetarians are there as opposed to meat reducers?

0:19:570:20:02

12% of the population.

0:20:020:20:04

Are you worried a little bit if you open up an outlet

0:20:050:20:08

that just does vegetarian food, you're actually excluding...

0:20:080:20:12

..88% of the population?

0:20:140:20:15

We've actually found in our trading experience, so far,

0:20:170:20:21

that a third of our customers are actually meat eaters

0:20:210:20:23

and Not Dogs is a place that me and Jane could go

0:20:230:20:27

and have a quick, fast food fix together.

0:20:270:20:30

She doesn't have to worry about anything to do with animal products

0:20:300:20:33

and I feel that there's absolutely no difference between a meat hot dog

0:20:330:20:36

and our Not Dog.

0:20:360:20:38

Can I say that tastes really good?

0:20:390:20:42

-Thank you.

-So what's your credentials?

0:20:420:20:44

Because, actually, you know what, what makes any restaurant,

0:20:440:20:48

any fast food service, any of that work is the people, that's it.

0:20:480:20:52

So what are your credentials?

0:20:520:20:54

Well, we first met each other five years ago,

0:20:540:20:56

both leading PR and social media departments

0:20:560:20:59

at an advertising agency.

0:20:590:21:01

But we always had this idea for vegetarian fast food.

0:21:010:21:05

We have spent 18 months in our food truck, just the two of us,

0:21:050:21:10

all over the country,

0:21:100:21:12

taking that food truck to every single muddy field there is

0:21:120:21:15

and worked 18 hours a day,

0:21:150:21:16

serving up those Not Dogs absolutely relentlessly.

0:21:160:21:19

We then saw the opportunity for an actual three-month pop-up

0:21:190:21:23

in a shop just near the Shard in London.

0:21:230:21:26

That three-month experience gave us great understanding

0:21:260:21:29

of how hard it is to run a restaurant

0:21:290:21:31

and that's...really, we've done it.

0:21:310:21:33

An impressive work ethic

0:21:350:21:37

and a confident account of their experience so far.

0:21:370:21:40

But will it be enough to win over global restaurant guru

0:21:400:21:44

Sarah Willingham?

0:21:440:21:46

I've done lots of festivals, both restaurants and bars.

0:21:460:21:50

And it's very, very, very, very different than running a restaurant.

0:21:520:21:55

Actually, the reality is, you have got such a...

0:21:560:22:00

not just a captive audience, you've got a captive audience

0:22:000:22:02

with a very, very, very limited choice.

0:22:020:22:04

Turnover's high.

0:22:050:22:07

I imagine profit was low.

0:22:070:22:10

Very low. If at all?

0:22:100:22:12

Every time we made a profit...

0:22:120:22:13

-Very good.

-..and where we took the 2,000 consistently every day,

0:22:130:22:18

we would take 6,000 in total for the weekend

0:22:180:22:21

-and 2,000 of that would be profit.

-Is that including paying yourselves?

0:22:210:22:26

No.

0:22:260:22:27

OK. So, you know, break even, basically.

0:22:270:22:30

-Yeah.

-So now you move that into the Bullring.

0:22:300:22:33

-Yeah.

-Who are you next to?

0:22:330:22:35

We are literally very close to the food hall.

0:22:350:22:38

-But you're not in the food hall?

-No.

0:22:380:22:41

If you're not near the food,

0:22:410:22:42

that's actually a problem for your offering.

0:22:420:22:44

You need to be surrounded by other food offers.

0:22:440:22:47

Not quite the reaction Katie and Jane were hoping for,

0:22:500:22:53

as Sarah Willingham dishes out a reality check

0:22:530:22:56

over their plans to expand into shopping centres.

0:22:560:23:00

And it's given fashion magnet Touker Suleyman food for thought.

0:23:000:23:04

-Food is not my forte.

-Mm-hm.

0:23:070:23:09

I wish you'd come with something that I had a synergy with

0:23:100:23:14

because I think the pair of you are fantastic.

0:23:140:23:17

I don't believe that I can add value to you.

0:23:170:23:19

-OK.

-For that reason, I'm out.

0:23:190:23:22

Thank you, Touker.

0:23:220:23:24

Praise for the entrepreneurs, but a deal still dismissed.

0:23:250:23:29

Can the man who turned Moonpig into a household name

0:23:310:23:34

see the money-spinning potential in the Not Dog brand?

0:23:340:23:38

Eating this reminds me a little bit of snails.

0:23:410:23:43

And I say that because I used to think that I really liked snails

0:23:440:23:47

and, actually, what I realise is I love garlic butter.

0:23:470:23:50

And I was eating that thinking it was really, really tasty

0:23:500:23:52

and what I really like is cheese sauce and grilled onions.

0:23:520:23:55

You're brilliant on the sauces, absolutely fantastic.

0:23:560:23:59

And I think... I can see why it works at festivals

0:23:590:24:02

because you've got something for everybody there,

0:24:020:24:04

you're all mingling in a field and it's all open-air eating,

0:24:040:24:07

you can get whatever you want.

0:24:070:24:08

I just don't see it working as a stand-alone place

0:24:080:24:11

where you have to walk in through the door and go in and sit down.

0:24:110:24:14

-I can't invest, I'm out.

-Thank you.

0:24:160:24:19

I think you're up against a really big challenge by really focusing on

0:24:200:24:24

this product as opposed to having this within a range.

0:24:240:24:28

This is tough if you go one specific product...

0:24:300:24:34

We do have the Boston burger, the Bali breakfast dog,

0:24:340:24:38

we have a breakfast muffin as well

0:24:380:24:40

and we've expanded the range to include meat-free chicken nuggets

0:24:400:24:43

and waffle fries.

0:24:430:24:44

So we see these products but coming under the Not Dogs brand

0:24:440:24:47

because that's the brand that people talk about.

0:24:470:24:49

I think because also I'm a meat-eater,

0:24:520:24:54

it's a hard one to get over the line with me.

0:24:540:24:56

I'm not buying your business.

0:24:590:25:00

-OK.

-I'm sorry. I'm going to say that I'm out.

0:25:000:25:02

-Understandable.

-Thanks, Peter.

-Thank you.

0:25:020:25:04

A carnivorous Peter Jones lets his taste buds do the talking

0:25:060:25:10

and also walks away from a deal.

0:25:100:25:12

Sarah Willingham has been sceptical

0:25:130:25:15

of the entrepreneurs' expansion plans.

0:25:150:25:17

But has Katie and Jane's dogged determination to succeed

0:25:190:25:23

won her round?

0:25:230:25:24

I love restaurants that do what they say on the tin.

0:25:280:25:32

This is...

0:25:320:25:34

I am an expert in this field.

0:25:340:25:36

You come to me because this is what...

0:25:360:25:38

You might be brilliant Indian, you might be brilliant Middle Eastern,

0:25:380:25:42

so I do like the specificness of it.

0:25:420:25:44

But you're too niche.

0:25:450:25:47

I think you'll really, really struggle, if I'm being honest.

0:25:470:25:50

I really do think it's quite high-risk.

0:25:500:25:52

And I can't invest in it.

0:25:530:25:55

-I'm out.

-Thank you.

-Thanks, Sarah.

0:25:570:25:59

Four Dragons out.

0:26:020:26:04

Only Deborah Meaden remains.

0:26:040:26:07

Will the Dragon who regularly goes meat-free be the one to see value

0:26:070:26:11

in the vegetarian fast food concept?

0:26:110:26:14

I like the idea.

0:26:170:26:18

I like the people.

0:26:200:26:21

Um...

0:26:220:26:23

..but I don't like the business.

0:26:250:26:26

I've had restaurants, I've had bars,

0:26:280:26:31

but it's not an area that I'm dying to get back into,

0:26:310:26:34

so it would have to be a compelling reason.

0:26:340:26:36

I wish you all the best of luck, but I'm afraid I won't be investing.

0:26:390:26:42

I'm out.

0:26:420:26:43

-Good luck.

-Thank you.

-Thank you very much.

0:26:450:26:47

So no dosh for Not Dogs,

0:26:480:26:51

but a new nickname one Dragon will never forget.

0:26:510:26:54

Don't cry, don't cry.

0:26:540:26:56

-I'm not happy.

-Look at his face.

0:27:010:27:03

She gives me a card and it says The Jerkin' Jones as well.

0:27:030:27:06

We noticed straightaway when Peter saw his Jerkin' Jones dog

0:27:070:27:11

and we're quite surprised, actually,

0:27:110:27:13

that he didn't realise what we'd done.

0:27:130:27:15

Maybe it was a bit too clever, I don't know.

0:27:150:27:18

Next.

0:27:180:27:19

Hoping to have more success securing Dragon capital

0:27:290:27:33

were husband and wife duo Anna and Rowan Byrne from London.

0:27:330:27:37

Bring the core to the floor!

0:27:370:27:39

Shake it up.

0:27:400:27:41

And down.

0:27:430:27:45

The hula-hooping hopefuls

0:27:450:27:47

were offering 15% equity in exchange for an £80,000 investment...

0:27:470:27:52

Bring it down and hula, ladies.

0:27:520:27:54

..to help turn their dance class company into a national franchise.

0:27:540:27:59

As you can see, HulaFit is a seriously fun

0:27:590:28:01

and high energy hula-hoop fitness class.

0:28:010:28:03

We give an all-body workout using weighted hoops

0:28:030:28:06

that will not only strengthen and tone your core,

0:28:060:28:08

but will leave you sweating, smiling and wanting more.

0:28:080:28:12

Deborah Meaden was more than happy to give the workout a road test.

0:28:120:28:16

-Whoa!

-Hey!

0:28:160:28:18

Whoa! OK, that's it.

0:28:180:28:20

I can't stop.

0:28:200:28:22

Oh, there we go.

0:28:230:28:25

SHE EXCLAIMS

0:28:250:28:27

-Very good, well done.

-That was very impressive.

0:28:290:28:32

Now you know what I do in my spare time.

0:28:320:28:34

Plenty of enthusiasm, but not from Peter Jones.

0:28:340:28:37

Excitement over. "Is it a business?" is going through my mind.

0:28:370:28:41

Apart from a bit of branding,

0:28:410:28:43

what are you really doing to create a business that everybody else

0:28:430:28:46

could do anyway just by buying some hula hoops?

0:28:460:28:49

I think what we're bringing to it is our background,

0:28:490:28:51

of fitness and Anna's been teaching hula-hooping for about ten years.

0:28:510:28:54

I perform with fire, mostly.

0:28:540:28:56

-Fire?

-Yeah, with fire.

0:28:560:28:58

See, it would have been a lot better if you'd done that.

0:28:580:29:02

Touker Suleyman struggled to get his head around the "hul" idea.

0:29:020:29:06

Is this tried and tested and proven,

0:29:060:29:09

or is it a little dream in your head?

0:29:090:29:11

We haven't trialled it ourselves.

0:29:110:29:13

And was torn over whether the brand was fit for investment.

0:29:130:29:17

I'm not 100% sure.

0:29:180:29:19

Maybe Deborah...

0:29:210:29:23

(I'm Sarah.)

0:29:230:29:25

You're Sarah, of course you're Sarah.

0:29:250:29:27

But there was no mistaking Peter Jones when it fell to him

0:29:270:29:31

to put an end to the entrepreneurs' hoop dreams.

0:29:310:29:34

You've just taken a flyer and just come in and hula-hooped.

0:29:340:29:37

-Right.

-And you're going to end up hula-hooping your way out.

0:29:370:29:40

-Good luck, but I'm out.

-I won't be investing.

0:29:400:29:43

- I'm out. - I'm out.

0:29:430:29:45

-Thank you.

-Cheers.

-Bye-bye.

0:29:450:29:46

Not that it stopped Deborah Meaden throwing down the gauntlet

0:29:460:29:50

to the men in the Den.

0:29:500:29:52

Chickens. I can't believe you guys didn't stand up.

0:29:520:29:56

-Come on, boys.

-Go on, guys.

0:29:560:29:58

-PETER:

-How the hell are you supposed to do that?

0:29:590:30:01

Would you like me to show you, Mr Jones?

0:30:010:30:03

Which part of your thing do you shake?

0:30:030:30:05

My booty.

0:30:050:30:06

Oh, gone and put my back out now!

0:30:070:30:09

-TOUKER:

-Oh!

0:30:090:30:10

Oh, yes.

0:30:100:30:11

Oh, yes. Now we're talking.

0:30:110:30:13

Coffee? Anyone got coffee?

0:30:130:30:15

-PETER:

-Is it speed?

-Oh, oh, oh.

-I'm exhausted now.

0:30:150:30:19

Still to come on tonight's show...

0:30:240:30:27

It's a black hole eating money.

0:30:270:30:30

This is quite an important number, isn't it?

0:30:300:30:31

So can you just try and recall it?

0:30:310:30:34

It is a big boy's game.

0:30:340:30:36

Only a few companies can win.

0:30:360:30:39

I want a large piece of the pie.

0:30:390:30:41

To be a successful entrepreneur,

0:30:480:30:50

it is useful to have supreme confidence in your product,

0:30:500:30:54

which is exactly what our next entrepreneur,

0:30:540:30:56

John Nicholls from Ledbury in Herefordshire, has.

0:30:560:30:59

HE CALLS AND WHISTLES TO DOG

0:31:010:31:03

I know the product inside out, so they're not going to fluster me,

0:31:040:31:07

and I know my figures, hopefully rehearsed my figures pretty well.

0:31:070:31:11

For a seemingly well prepared John,

0:31:110:31:14

the fire of the Dragons holds no fear.

0:31:140:31:17

I love people that give me a lot of stick

0:31:170:31:19

because I'm just getting another problem solved.

0:31:190:31:21

Give me half a day and I've thought of the answer.

0:31:210:31:24

But will he have all the answers

0:31:260:31:27

when it comes to the Dragons' questions?

0:31:270:31:29

I'm John Nicholls and I'm looking today for an investment of 45,000

0:31:470:31:52

for 15% of my HandiScoop company.

0:31:520:31:56

So I've got two products. One is this size,

0:31:560:31:58

which we call the easy walking HandiScoop and the long one

0:31:580:32:02

is the easy reach HandiScoop. They're both, basically,

0:32:020:32:06

the best poop scoops in the world.

0:32:060:32:08

For the people that have bought the product,

0:32:080:32:11

they would never go back to a traditional method

0:32:110:32:14

of what they're using to pick up poop.

0:32:140:32:15

The reason the scoop is so unique, it has a bagging system.

0:32:160:32:21

It just goes over the top and it's actually sealing the smell

0:32:210:32:24

and I'm picking up and it's actually put now

0:32:240:32:26

the three carrots all in the same bag.

0:32:260:32:28

So not only is it much more easy to use, much quicker,

0:32:280:32:31

than a conventional method, it actually is saving lots of bags.

0:32:310:32:37

It works on good poop and bad poop days.

0:32:370:32:40

So anything sloppy, I'll challenge anyone in the world

0:32:400:32:42

to pick up with their hands better

0:32:420:32:44

than I can pick up with my HandiScoop.

0:32:440:32:46

For young children, it's actually ideal.

0:32:460:32:48

Any young child from five, you wouldn't ask a child, particularly,

0:32:480:32:51

to get a bag out and pick it up, but this is very hygienic.

0:32:510:32:54

He can do it and really enjoy helping look after the pet.

0:32:540:32:58

And right through to someone of quite old age.

0:32:580:33:02

Here we've got a bracket that we've developed,

0:33:020:33:04

so it fits on walking sticks, on buggy pushchairs,

0:33:040:33:07

push bikes, anything.

0:33:070:33:09

We've achieved just under 35,000 pieces of sales

0:33:090:33:13

in the last five years.

0:33:130:33:15

We've worked very hard now on the packaging

0:33:150:33:17

and since the packaging has been improved,

0:33:170:33:19

I feel that we'll get fantastic retail sales.

0:33:190:33:22

That's HandiScoop. Thank you very much for listening.

0:33:220:33:26

We've got a product for you to have a look at.

0:33:260:33:30

-Thank you.

-Innovative poop scoops

0:33:300:33:32

are the offering from Herefordshire-based John Nicholls.

0:33:320:33:35

Obviously, you're very, very welcome to come and try one of our props.

0:33:350:33:40

The entrepreneur is hoping to pick up a £45,000 investment in exchange

0:33:400:33:45

for a 15% stake in his pet accessory business.

0:33:450:33:49

It works.

0:33:490:33:51

Touker Suleyman appears satisfied.

0:33:510:33:53

But dog-owner Nick Jenkins knows more than most

0:33:530:33:57

about the problem in hand.

0:33:570:33:59

Oh, that is such a boy thing to do.

0:33:590:34:01

-SHE RETCHES

-You're so revolting!

0:34:010:34:04

Is he about to praise the product or "poo-poo" it?

0:34:040:34:07

-Thank you very much indeed.

-Thank you.

0:34:070:34:10

Thank you.

0:34:100:34:11

I could totally accept that not a lot of people appreciate

0:34:150:34:19

the warm and squidgy feeling that one gets picking up dog poop,

0:34:190:34:22

but at the same time, you sort of get over it fairly quickly.

0:34:220:34:25

And the big advantage is you don't have to walk around with a big thing

0:34:250:34:29

that says - "I'm carrying poop!"

0:34:290:34:31

Now, there is an advantage to this product

0:34:310:34:33

that you haven't emphasised, which is security.

0:34:330:34:35

-Yep.

-Because if you're walking through the park

0:34:350:34:38

and you're quite visibly holding something

0:34:380:34:39

that is quite obviously full of poop, nobody's going to mug you.

0:34:390:34:43

Particularly if your dog has diarrhoea.

0:34:430:34:45

When I scooped up those baked beans and showed them to Sarah...

0:34:450:34:48

Yes, I've got poo everywhere here, look.

0:34:480:34:51

I don't think you quite did it properly,

0:34:510:34:54

but I'd love to challenge you.

0:34:540:34:56

-Look.

-Ooh!

0:34:560:34:58

OK, so you're down on your hands and knees, so now with...

0:34:580:35:01

That's... How much have you picked up?

0:35:010:35:04

So you're going to leave the rest?

0:35:040:35:05

No, I could pick that all up,

0:35:050:35:07

but that's the point I'm demonstrating here.

0:35:070:35:09

I don't think you demonstrated anything to me.

0:35:090:35:11

You've left all those beans in the tray.

0:35:110:35:13

I could completely clear the tray of every last bean.

0:35:130:35:16

I... I don't know.

0:35:160:35:18

The main thing for me is

0:35:180:35:19

that I wouldn't want to walk through the street...

0:35:190:35:21

It's a big bulky thing to walk through the streets with.

0:35:210:35:24

A small packet of bags just go in my pocket.

0:35:240:35:26

You put bags of poop in your pocket, yeah?

0:35:260:35:28

No, no, what I do is I drop it in the nearest bin

0:35:280:35:30

-when I'm walking past.

-When the bin is full, what do you do then?

0:35:300:35:34

-Well, I go to the next bin.

-So you're walking along and you think

0:35:350:35:38

that's much better than carrying a hygienic handle,

0:35:380:35:41

that you know you haven't got any mess on you.

0:35:410:35:43

-Is that great?

-I don't have an issue with that.

0:35:430:35:46

OK, fine. Now, the other problem you've got

0:35:460:35:47

is when you're handling that, that actually dangles down.

0:35:470:35:50

Councils now are starting to get rid of bins

0:35:500:35:53

cos they can't afford to maintain them and another thing is...

0:35:530:35:57

John, John, John...

0:35:570:35:58

Can I just interrupt you?

0:35:580:36:00

Just take a deep breath because you've now moved into argument mode.

0:36:000:36:04

It's like you're having some kind of argument in the Den.

0:36:040:36:07

-Sorry.

-What you actually want to do is pitch for an investment.

0:36:070:36:09

-OK.

-So can we just take a deep breath and focus on the business?

0:36:090:36:13

Sure.

0:36:130:36:14

It's a messy start for John as he fails to convince Nick Jenkins

0:36:160:36:20

of his product's superior scooping ability.

0:36:200:36:23

Now the multi-millionaires want to work out

0:36:240:36:27

if the design of the HandiScoop holds any value.

0:36:270:36:30

-Is it patented?

-Yes.

0:36:340:36:36

So I'm assuming that what's patented is the front end, not the back end,

0:36:360:36:40

-and looks like a gun.

-Yeah.

0:36:400:36:42

I've made it in conjunction with a company

0:36:420:36:45

called The Helping Hand company.

0:36:450:36:46

He makes all the disabled grabbing things and litter pickers.

0:36:460:36:50

Together, we've developed the product

0:36:500:36:53

and he actually owns the patents and everything,

0:36:530:36:56

but I've got full selling rights on all of the product.

0:36:560:36:59

-Ah, so you haven't got the patents?

-I don't own the patents, no.

0:36:590:37:02

Right, OK. So, basically, you have a licence?

0:37:020:37:05

Yeah.

0:37:050:37:06

How many have you got to sell a year to keep hold of that licence?

0:37:070:37:10

Erm...

0:37:110:37:13

HE STUTTERS

0:37:130:37:15

I'm not... I'm selling more...

0:37:160:37:18

I haven't got the figures right in front of my head at the moment,

0:37:180:37:21

but I'm selling more than my agreement was than I had to sell.

0:37:210:37:25

OK. And it'll roll on from there.

0:37:250:37:27

Does that increase every year, your minimum?

0:37:270:37:29

Yes. Well, no...

0:37:290:37:31

It just got to a certain level and then he was happy with the level

0:37:310:37:34

-that I'm selling.

-I mean, this is quite an important number, isn't it?

0:37:340:37:37

-Yes, OK.

-So can you just try and recall it?

0:37:370:37:40

Yeah.

0:37:400:37:41

I would think I've got to sell...

0:37:410:37:43

..up to, um...

0:37:450:37:46

at least 6,000 pieces a year.

0:37:460:37:49

You don't know that, do you?

0:37:520:37:55

You've just guessed that.

0:37:550:37:56

I'm not asking you a difficult question.

0:37:580:37:59

-No.

-I just want to understand how likely you are

0:37:590:38:02

to be able to continue selling this product if it is a big success.

0:38:020:38:06

Or if it isn't a success, or if it's a bit of a success.

0:38:060:38:09

-OK.

-What the risk is.

0:38:090:38:11

I don't think there is a risk.

0:38:110:38:13

Yeah, but you can't tell me that. You need to say to me -

0:38:130:38:15

"I've got to sell 10,000 a year to hold on to my licence."

0:38:150:38:19

Or 15,000 a year, or 20,000 a year.

0:38:190:38:21

Can you say that?

0:38:230:38:24

How many products do you have to buy off him

0:38:280:38:29

to make sure the licence continues?

0:38:290:38:31

I would think something like 5,000 pieces a year.

0:38:320:38:36

You would think!

0:38:360:38:38

Well, I can get it agreed...

0:38:390:38:40

It's not a problem to get it agreed.

0:38:400:38:43

At the moment, I don't think I've got a figure.

0:38:430:38:45

You are a licensed product. Right.

0:38:450:38:48

All you're offering an investor

0:38:480:38:50

is the ability to join with you in selling

0:38:500:38:54

this licensed product.

0:38:540:38:55

-Right.

-So this agreement..

0:38:550:38:57

-Yes.

-..is something that should be in your head, absolutely,

0:38:570:39:00

"I've got to do this, I've got to do that, that way we're safe."

0:39:000:39:03

OK, yep.

0:39:030:39:05

Do you have the agreement with you?

0:39:080:39:10

Does it actually matter?

0:39:100:39:11

Will it make a difference if he had the agreement with him?

0:39:110:39:14

You've really just come in and tried to wing an investment

0:39:140:39:17

on the back of the fact that you've had a product, you've sold a few,

0:39:170:39:19

somebody else owns the rights, and you want me to invest.

0:39:190:39:23

I don't need you. I may as well go and do a deal with the actual owner

0:39:230:39:26

who has the ownership of the IP.

0:39:260:39:28

-I invented it.

-Well, you've given the rights away.

0:39:290:39:32

You've invented something and given the rights to somebody else.

0:39:320:39:36

I don't... I question why you would do that.

0:39:360:39:40

So, really, as an investment, you've got nothing to offer.

0:39:410:39:43

I'm out.

0:39:430:39:44

Peter Jones makes no bones about his disillusionment

0:39:470:39:50

with John's licensing agreement.

0:39:500:39:52

Is a previously sceptical Nick Jenkins

0:39:530:39:56

also about to walk away from a deal?

0:39:560:39:59

Look, I'm sure there are some people with limited mobility

0:40:030:40:06

-for whom this would be useful.

-Sure.

0:40:060:40:08

I don't think it solves any of the problems

0:40:100:40:12

of being a relatively squeamish, fairly revolting experience,

0:40:120:40:15

picking up dog poo.

0:40:150:40:16

It doesn't offer a good enough solution for this to be interesting,

0:40:170:40:22

so for that reason, there's so many reasons to be out...

0:40:220:40:24

..but I'm out.

0:40:260:40:28

OK. Thank you.

0:40:290:40:30

John, I'm not a dog owner, but as a product, I just don't see it.

0:40:300:40:36

If I had a dog, I'd take the dog out with my kids.

0:40:360:40:40

I wouldn't even be able to hold their hand

0:40:400:40:42

because I'd have to carry this enormous contraption with me

0:40:420:40:45

everywhere that I went.

0:40:450:40:47

Honestly, I can't see me ever using it.

0:40:480:40:51

So, I'm afraid, it's not a business for me to invest in,

0:40:510:40:54

so I'm out.

0:40:540:40:55

A pet-free Sarah Willingham declines the investment opportunity.

0:40:580:41:02

Which way will dog-loving Deborah Meaden go?

0:41:040:41:08

I do think you'll sell some

0:41:080:41:10

and I hope that you can make a business out of it.

0:41:100:41:12

But of course you've got this really confusing relationship

0:41:120:41:15

that I don't think is properly tied down with the patent holder

0:41:150:41:19

and it just takes away the ability to invest.

0:41:190:41:22

Even if I thought it was a fantastic product,

0:41:220:41:23

there would be lots of barriers.

0:41:230:41:25

It's not going to happen, so I'm out.

0:41:260:41:29

With Deborah Meaden out, just Touker Suleyman remains.

0:41:320:41:36

Could the retail tycoon be the Dragon

0:41:360:41:38

to offer the HandiScoop hopeful

0:41:380:41:40

a financial helping hand?

0:41:400:41:42

I think it's a good product.

0:41:440:41:46

It's practical...

0:41:480:41:49

-Yes.

-..as a piece of kit.

0:41:490:41:51

What have you sold in the last 12 months?

0:41:520:41:56

I'm selling about 600 pieces a month at the moment.

0:41:560:41:59

About 7,200.

0:41:590:42:00

You've got online.

0:42:020:42:03

How many of those are you selling a month?

0:42:030:42:07

Probably about 150, somewhere around there.

0:42:070:42:09

-A month?

-Yeah. Obviously I supply people like Amazon, Pets At Home,

0:42:090:42:14

other people as well.

0:42:140:42:16

So I'm supplying wholesale as well, to some garden centres,

0:42:160:42:19

to some pet shops.

0:42:190:42:20

It looks like you're supplying a lot of people,

0:42:200:42:22

but you're not selling much.

0:42:220:42:24

The reason is, like I explained,

0:42:260:42:28

because of the packaging, didn't relate.

0:42:280:42:31

The product bare is very hard to understand. With the packaging...

0:42:310:42:35

The packaging is absolutely brand-new.

0:42:350:42:38

John, if it's the right product, they find you.

0:42:380:42:42

-Right.

-But I would have thought by now, been going five years,

0:42:420:42:46

you would have sold a lot more.

0:42:460:42:49

All I can tell you is that when it does sell,

0:42:490:42:53

the people would never go back to what they currently do

0:42:530:42:56

and if every household in England had one...

0:42:560:42:59

You're dreaming there, aren't you?

0:42:590:43:01

I don't exactly think so because I know...

0:43:010:43:04

Is that your prediction?

0:43:040:43:05

-That every household in the country will own one of those?

-No, I don't.

0:43:050:43:09

My figures that I have prepared are based on 1% of the market.

0:43:090:43:14

Right. So what are your figures?

0:43:140:43:15

So 12 months from now, where will you be?

0:43:150:43:17

I reckon I'll be turning over 900,000.

0:43:170:43:21

And at the moment, how much is it going to be this year?

0:43:210:43:23

-About 60,000.

-So you're going to go from 60 to 900,000?

0:43:230:43:27

Yes. Big numbers.

0:43:270:43:29

-You're digging your grave bigger and bigger, I'm afraid, John.

-No, no, no, no.

0:43:300:43:35

There's a lot of barriers that you've put up today.

0:43:350:43:38

The product's right but you're uninvestable.

0:43:380:43:40

-I'm out.

-OK, thank you very much indeed.

0:43:430:43:45

Thank you.

0:43:450:43:47

And good luck. I hope it works out.

0:43:470:43:49

Thank you.

0:43:490:43:50

Good.

0:43:500:43:51

So a fifth and final rejection for John,

0:43:530:43:56

who has failed to scoop an investment in his doggy device.

0:43:560:43:59

He walks away empty-handed.

0:44:010:44:03

OK, I've lost out and they've lost out.

0:44:040:44:06

That's what I look at. I didn't do a good pitch early on

0:44:060:44:09

and it's quite hard on you.

0:44:090:44:10

You know, you can't remember all the figures in your head.

0:44:100:44:13

So far, our multi-millionaire Dragons

0:44:220:44:24

haven't been tempted to commit any of their cash,

0:44:240:44:27

failing to see enough value

0:44:270:44:29

in the array of businesses they've been pitched.

0:44:290:44:32

But will our final entrepreneurs into the Den fare any better?

0:44:320:44:36

They are Glasgow-based Vincenz Klemt and Raj Sark,

0:44:410:44:45

business partners who believe there is profit in loss.

0:44:450:44:49

Almost 1.5 billion worth of gadgets are lost in the UK,

0:44:490:44:53

so we said, "There is a problem -

0:44:530:44:55

"can there be a solution?"

0:44:550:44:57

And I think it's the right timing for us to go into the Den

0:44:570:45:01

and give it our best shot.

0:45:010:45:02

But will the Dragons find value in their investment opportunity?

0:45:020:45:07

-Hi, Dragons.

-Hello, Dragons. Are we ready?

-Yes.

0:45:140:45:17

Oh, wait, where are my keys?

0:45:170:45:20

-Where's my phone?

-Where are my keys?

0:45:200:45:21

-My phone?

-Did you know the average person

0:45:210:45:24

spends ten minutes per day doing just that.

0:45:240:45:26

Lupo is the solution.

0:45:260:45:28

With Lupo, you can find your keys from your phone,

0:45:280:45:32

you can ring your phone from your keys.

0:45:320:45:34

Keys, wallet or travel bag -

0:45:340:45:37

keep track of them all through one single app.

0:45:370:45:39

Lupo is primarily aimed at the busy young professional,

0:45:400:45:43

the smartphone user, the frequent traveller

0:45:430:45:46

and everybody who sometimes can't find the things

0:45:460:45:49

they know are here somewhere.

0:45:490:45:51

And that can happen to anybody.

0:45:510:45:53

So what do we do when we can't find the car keys, 8am in the morning,

0:45:530:45:56

-in a rush?

-It's very simple.

0:45:560:45:58

We take out the Lupo app and use the Call Me feature.

0:45:580:46:01

-BEEPING

-Oh, hang on. Oh.

0:46:010:46:03

Oh, it's down there.

0:46:030:46:05

Is that me? Am I beeping?

0:46:050:46:08

Just under you!

0:46:080:46:09

-Oh, thank you.

-Thanks, Deborah, you're a champ.

0:46:110:46:14

You can find your keys from your phone.

0:46:140:46:16

You can also actually find your phone from your keys.

0:46:160:46:18

You press the button here and you wait.

0:46:180:46:21

One, two...

0:46:210:46:23

-PHONE PLAYS JINGLE

-There we go.

0:46:230:46:25

It's a two-way finder and if something goes lost,

0:46:250:46:29

stolen or missing,

0:46:290:46:30

you can view its last known location on a map.

0:46:300:46:34

Today, we are here to seek an investment of £100,000

0:46:340:46:38

in return for an 8% equity stake in our company.

0:46:380:46:42

Lupo is one of the UK's favourite tracking gadgets

0:46:420:46:45

and has been one of the best sellers on Amazon UK.

0:46:450:46:48

The product sells at £20 per unit

0:46:480:46:50

and the cost to produce each of them is £3.50,

0:46:500:46:54

giving us a gross margin of just about 75%.

0:46:540:46:57

We are looking to bring Lupo to a retail store near you

0:46:570:47:00

and with this investment, it will help us do just that.

0:47:000:47:03

Thank you. And now we would like to answer any of your questions.

0:47:030:47:07

Hoping to home in on an investment are Vincenz Klemt and Raj Sark

0:47:100:47:14

with their tracking device and phone app,

0:47:140:47:17

which helps locate lost valuables.

0:47:170:47:19

-One for you, Peter.

-Thank you very much.

0:47:190:47:21

The entrepreneurs are looking for £100,000

0:47:230:47:26

for just 8% of their business.

0:47:260:47:28

Even the most diligent of Dragons

0:47:280:47:30

misplaces their phone from time to time.

0:47:300:47:33

But it appears Sarah Willingham needs convincing

0:47:330:47:36

-that this is the solution to finding it.

-Am I missing something?

0:47:360:47:40

I just don't get it,

0:47:400:47:41

because it says very clearly in your instructions

0:47:410:47:45

that if you want to find your mobile phone, make sure it's not on mute,

0:47:450:47:50

and make sure it's switched on to find it.

0:47:500:47:54

I would just use somebody else's mobile phone

0:47:540:47:57

or something and I would just phone it.

0:47:570:47:59

It's a very age-old problem, really.

0:47:590:48:00

You ask your friend, you ask someone else.

0:48:000:48:03

-"Can you ring my phone?"

-"Can you ring my phone?"

0:48:030:48:05

But what if your friend or partner is not there at the moment?

0:48:050:48:07

You spend ten minutes searching for it

0:48:070:48:10

and that already is a bad start to the day.

0:48:100:48:13

It's not a particularly great start to the day

0:48:150:48:18

for Raj and Vincenz either.

0:48:180:48:20

And now tech tycoon Peter Jones has a bee in his bonnet

0:48:200:48:24

about just how innovative their innovation is.

0:48:240:48:27

Tech tracking is so old.

0:48:300:48:32

I sell...

0:48:340:48:36

at least five or six different types of tracking tag devices.

0:48:360:48:40

It's not new.

0:48:410:48:43

Bluetooth Smart, actually, is a very new technology.

0:48:440:48:47

That's Bluetooth 4.0 - combining that with our software,

0:48:470:48:50

that part of the technology is very new.

0:48:500:48:53

My sister bought my husband for Christmas

0:48:550:48:59

something that does exactly what this does. So what is that?

0:48:590:49:04

There are a few similar trackers out there in the market.

0:49:040:49:06

It's a very fast evolving and growing market, as we see it.

0:49:060:49:09

So you're not claiming this is unique?

0:49:090:49:12

So what's your...? And this is important.

0:49:120:49:15

So why you?

0:49:150:49:17

It's the software. Anybody can take all these components off the shelf

0:49:170:49:21

in China, yeah. They're very cheap.

0:49:210:49:23

But it's all about the firmware on the device.

0:49:230:49:26

It's about the app.

0:49:260:49:27

We can also write new applications for that button.

0:49:270:49:31

OK, see, that's really important to understand

0:49:310:49:34

because the thing that you're selling us

0:49:340:49:36

doesn't sound at all unique to me.

0:49:360:49:38

But, actually, it's the other stuff that's making it unique.

0:49:380:49:41

And the question, therefore, is how important

0:49:410:49:44

is the other stuff that you can do?

0:49:440:49:46

So we have one large competitor in the US.

0:49:460:49:48

They raised about 16 million funding.

0:49:480:49:51

By January, they have sold about four million units.

0:49:510:49:54

But their battery is locked in.

0:49:540:49:57

So after about six months, the product will die.

0:49:570:50:02

Ours lasts the longest in terms of the battery life.

0:50:020:50:04

That's unique to Lupo.

0:50:040:50:06

Also, the upgradeability, which is unique to our product.

0:50:060:50:09

The entrepreneurs are certainly not lost for words as they deftly handle

0:50:120:50:17

yet more scepticism about their phone-finding device.

0:50:170:50:20

But it's the disclosure of a major competitor Stateside

0:50:210:50:25

that's preoccupying both Nick Jenkins and Touker Suleyman.

0:50:250:50:30

Technology moves very fast.

0:50:320:50:34

-Yes.

-Now, you mentioned about a competitor in the US.

0:50:340:50:38

-Yes.

-You honestly believe that they're going to sit there

0:50:380:50:41

and do nothing to improve their product,

0:50:410:50:44

that they're going to just let the business be taken away from them?

0:50:440:50:48

I don't think so.

0:50:480:50:49

This is... It is a big boy's game

0:50:510:50:52

and there will be lots of big companies

0:50:520:50:54

coming in and throwing a lot of money at researchers.

0:50:540:50:57

Only a few companies can win,

0:50:570:50:59

so it's too much of a gamble.

0:50:590:51:02

I just can't take myself over the edge,

0:51:030:51:07

so for that reason I'm afraid I'm out.

0:51:070:51:09

E-commerce risk taker Nick Jenkins

0:51:120:51:15

decides not to take a chance on the techie twosome.

0:51:150:51:18

And it seems Sarah Willingham has come to an early decision.

0:51:180:51:22

I keep coming back to the fundamental need for it.

0:51:250:51:27

I really don't like the fact that my mobile phone has to be turned on,

0:51:280:51:31

cos that, to me, is the real problem,

0:51:310:51:34

cos I'll always be able to find my phone if it's turned on

0:51:340:51:37

and it's not on mute, cos I can just call it from somebody else's phone.

0:51:370:51:42

So it's not an investment for me

0:51:420:51:43

because it's not something that I get excited about.

0:51:430:51:46

I'm out.

0:51:470:51:49

You're going to need a lot of money to keep up.

0:51:510:51:53

Right? Before you know it, it's a black hole just eating money.

0:51:540:51:59

I can't see myself on that journey with you.

0:52:000:52:03

For that reason, I'm out.

0:52:040:52:06

Two more Dragons down.

0:52:090:52:11

Vincenz and Raj have had their work cut out

0:52:110:52:14

persuading the multi-millionaires

0:52:140:52:16

that their product is unique enough to rise above the competition.

0:52:160:52:20

Will Deborah Meaden and Peter Jones

0:52:220:52:24

each take a punt or throw in the towel?

0:52:240:52:27

I like what you've done.

0:52:330:52:34

I think that you've got what it takes

0:52:360:52:38

and I think you understand the market really, really well.

0:52:380:52:42

The window of opportunity is now and, on the basis of that...

0:52:430:52:47

..I'm going to make you an offer.

0:52:490:52:52

So I'm going to offer you all of the money, 100,000...

0:52:520:52:54

..but I want a large piece of the pie.

0:52:570:53:00

And the reason is because I believe that you can go two routes.

0:53:010:53:04

You can get an investor that's going to give you what you need,

0:53:040:53:07

capital to grow, or you're going to get an investor

0:53:070:53:09

that will give you the capital to grow

0:53:090:53:11

and the routes to market to sell.

0:53:110:53:13

And I have the routes to market to sell.

0:53:130:53:16

So I'm going to offer you £100,000, but I want 30% of the business.

0:53:160:53:20

He previously appeared lukewarm,

0:53:230:53:26

but a wily Peter Jones reveals his hand,

0:53:260:53:29

signalling a turnaround for the entrepreneurs.

0:53:290:53:32

But the Dragon's substantial equity demand

0:53:320:53:35

is almost four times the amount

0:53:350:53:37

the business partners wanted to give away.

0:53:370:53:39

Will Deborah Meaden be willing to offer a better deal?

0:53:400:53:45

Honestly...

0:53:470:53:48

..Peter's your man.

0:53:500:53:51

You know, Peter's your man. He's...

0:53:530:53:54

I couldn't offer you, honestly, the route to market as quickly as Peter.

0:53:560:54:01

This is what Peter does.

0:54:010:54:03

You've got a good offer from the right Dragon,

0:54:030:54:06

so I won't be making an offer.

0:54:060:54:08

I won't be investing. I'm out.

0:54:080:54:10

Is it OK if we take a bit of time off to have a talk?

0:54:150:54:18

Because we're interested in your offer.

0:54:180:54:20

We are just trying to see how we can also make it work.

0:54:200:54:23

OK.

0:54:230:54:25

Yeah.

0:54:250:54:26

It's a tough decision for the business partners.

0:54:270:54:31

Will they risk negotiating with the Dragon who is notoriously prickly

0:54:310:54:35

about a business's price tag?

0:54:350:54:38

(They'd be mad not to take that offer.)

0:54:380:54:41

Peter obviously understands the market, which I'm...

0:54:430:54:46

And he thinks we have got insight into the market.

0:54:460:54:48

He's definitely got the connections there.

0:54:480:54:50

But if we are raising anywhere above the 20% mark,

0:54:500:54:56

we are actually almost going down on the valuation.

0:54:560:54:59

Would you be willing to drop the equity stake

0:55:080:55:11

to somewhere around 15%?

0:55:110:55:14

No.

0:55:140:55:16

And the reason for that is that I think that

0:55:160:55:19

there's some investments you get opportunities with

0:55:190:55:21

that the value of which you bring is greater than the parts,

0:55:210:55:26

and I think this is one.

0:55:260:55:28

I think the value that I bring to the party, to this,

0:55:280:55:30

and particularly this product,

0:55:300:55:32

I think I'll be creating the value for you.

0:55:320:55:35

We do really appreciate the network you are going to bring in,

0:55:350:55:39

for which actually we would be willing to take the investment,

0:55:390:55:44

if we could have an offer at 20%.

0:55:440:55:47

You know, I've already got a business that sells products

0:55:500:55:53

like this into 150 countries around the world.

0:55:530:55:56

It's what I do.

0:55:570:56:00

So, no, I'm going to stick fast on 30%.

0:56:000:56:03

The issue is just the valuation, because we are almost...

0:56:060:56:11

We want to increase the value of the company.

0:56:110:56:13

I think you've got an opportunity now

0:56:130:56:15

to increase the value of your company by accepting my offer.

0:56:150:56:17

Would that be your final position?

0:56:210:56:24

Is there any other valuation you can offer us?

0:56:240:56:26

No, I've got to stay true because some investments, I can offer, say,

0:56:260:56:31

30% and say, "Look, if I get my money back,

0:56:310:56:33

"I'll drop down to 15 or 20%."

0:56:330:56:35

-Yeah.

-But I don't believe that that's right in this case,

0:56:350:56:37

because I think to sell this product you need me.

0:56:370:56:40

-OK.

-Can we take another time out?

0:56:420:56:45

-OK.

-Thank you.

0:56:450:56:46

(If his business can be a success, Peter will make it happen,

0:56:510:56:54

(end of story.)

0:56:540:56:56

Yeah, I think we are going to stick with our investment strategy.

0:56:560:56:59

OK.

0:57:010:57:02

Peter, we would love to accept your offer.

0:57:110:57:13

-Yay!

-Great. Brilliant.

0:57:130:57:15

-Good decision.

-Thanks very much.

0:57:150:57:16

-Well done.

-Really good decision.

0:57:160:57:18

A great example of negotiation as well.

0:57:180:57:20

-Well done.

-Well done.

0:57:200:57:22

-Thank you.

-Thank you, all.

0:57:220:57:23

Finally, the tracking gadget entrepreneurs do close a deal,

0:57:240:57:29

getting the Dragon with global tech expertise onboard.

0:57:290:57:32

-That's all right.

-Yeah.

0:57:340:57:36

30%. OK.

0:57:360:57:38

The negotiation with Peter was tough,

0:57:380:57:40

but I think we are happy that we still got the offer

0:57:400:57:44

-and managed to close it.

-That was a game changer for them.

0:57:440:57:47

I mean, every business does it,

0:57:470:57:48

it gets a moment where it's absolute, this is a game changer.

0:57:480:57:51

-Yeah.

-And they've just had their moment.

0:57:510:57:53

So a nail-biting end to events in the Den.

0:58:020:58:06

Raj and Vincenz face a difficult dilemma and it was one of those days

0:58:060:58:10

where the all-important back wall of the Den played a key role

0:58:100:58:14

in helping them come to their final decision

0:58:140:58:16

and eventually accepting Peter Jones's offer.

0:58:160:58:20

-Oh!

-Coming up next time... LAUGHTER

0:58:220:58:25

I'm going to be really brutal here.

0:58:250:58:28

I don't think you've got a business.

0:58:280:58:31

I'm not being funny, but I didn't wake up this morning

0:58:310:58:34

thinking, "I want to invest in intimate waxing."

0:58:340:58:36

Have you given me a trick one?

0:58:360:58:38

No.

0:58:380:58:39

You can't even move that.

0:58:390:58:41

You have come up with a very, very spicy valuation.

0:58:410:58:46

I tell you what, I'm going to break cover

0:58:460:58:47

and if this means that I'm on my own, then I'm on my own.

0:58:470:58:50

You're sleeping on your office floor to make this business work.

0:58:500:58:53

I don't need to know any more. That's done it.

0:58:530:58:56

Peter Jones, Deborah Meaden, Touker Suleyman, Sarah Willingham and Nick Jenkins take their seats as a fresh batch of entrepreneurs prepare to give them the elevator pitch of a lifetime.

In this episode, the Dragons ponder the investment potential in pop-up inflatable igloos, a meat-free hot-dog restaurant concept and a canine poop-scooping device. Will the Dragons find the product barking, or will dog-lover Deborah Meaden be tempted to take a punt?