Episode 2 Dragons' Den

Tonight, on Dragons' Den...

So what else are you completely wrong about in your business?

It wasn't my intention to bring false figures in.

Oh! Did it occur to you to kind of check them?

I'm sorry, that's just blown it!

Have you ever seen anybody say,

"My business is worth half of what I'm asking you to invest in"?

Have you ever met someone who's that ambitious

that he wants to be free from life and be a billionaire?

Do you know...

I like it.

You're coming across as frankly ridiculous.

Welcome back to Dragons' Den,

where cash-hungry entrepreneurs pitch their moneymaking enterprises

to our five multimillionaire investors.

Now, if hard work could guarantee success,

our first entrepreneur would be a sure-fire hit.

He's been sweating blood and tears

to get his diet meal company off the ground.

But perseverance is just one ingredient of success.

Is it enough to make a tasty recipe for the Dragons?

I've worked hard to be where I am today, and I've suffered a lot,

I've slept in my car, I had no money,

I didn't have a wash for four days because I was that busy and I didn't

have a place to sleep.

I want to be able to show people that it doesn't matter

where you come from - anything is possible.

Use every negative source in life as a positive

and you will never, ever fail.

Each one of those Dragons has a key to success in their own mind.

One of those keys is going to fit the lock to my success.

How are you doing? My name's Mark, I'm the director of Pro Gains.

I'm here to ask for a 5% investment for £125,000.

What Pro Gains is - we started in January 2015.

With this product, I believe that we've set up a product

where we can have tailor-made nutrition,

which they can decide what meals they like through our website.

So they can select an individual protein,

individual carb, individual veg,

all delivered fresh, straight to your door.

In August, we started trading.

As of today, we've turned over a quarter of a million.

At the moment, within two weeks,

I'm going to be in a position where my kitchen can handle 20,000 units

a day, which means we can turn over 25 million in a year,

with the unit that I'm in right now,

so there's no problem with movement.

I believe that with your expertise, with your knowledge,

then this investment is a no-brainer.

Um... Now, what I'm going to do is give you a few samples

of the proteins that we've got,

and also give you a menu and see the selections of the meals

that we provide,

with the 420 combinations of meals to choose from.

Tailor-made nutrition for the health-conscious is the package

on offer from Marco Hajikypri,

whose business delivers pre-prepared meals to your door.

I'll start with you, Mick,

cos you've got a gluten intolerance, I hear?

-Mm-hmm.

-Yes? So that's for you.

He's looking for a healthy £125,000

in return for just 5% of his start-up.

I'm hoping it's still warm for you.

But Deborah Meaden still isn't quite sure what's on the menu.

Erm, so, can I describe what I think you've got here?

Because I don't know whether I missed it,

but I wasn't really clear.

I think you've got a food-based business,

people transact through a website...

-Right, yeah.

-..so I go onto your website...

-Yeah.

-Do you tell me the type of thing I should be eating,

-or do I just shop?

-We have both options,

so you can select whether you want weight-loss, body-building,

and also e-mailing us with advice with your macros,

which we specifically do to your needs.

Erm, so, Pro Grains...

Pro Gains. Pro Gains.

That's right. Pro Gains to Progress, is the motto.

OK. And is there any protection or anything on this?

Er, we're trademarked

and we are in dispute with a company called Maximuscle.

Er, for the trademark,

which they're objecting to because they have a bar called Pro Gain.

-Gosh, I stumbled across something there, didn't I?

-Yeah, yeah. I was...

I was open to saying this...

Hold on a minute! Right,

so Pro Gains is actually, technically, protected.

So, legally, you are trademarked.

I've got the trademark, I've got the papers, yeah.

You've got the papers to say it's trademarked.

-Yes, 100%, yeah.

-OK. Then what happened?

Obviously, we applied for the trademark,

it was granted, but then there was an objection by this company.

-And with that, er...

-Sorry, before it was granted or after it was granted?

-No, it was granted and then they objected.

-How much have you spent on that so far?

-£170, it was.

-What, to get the trademark?

-Yes, to get the trademark.

-Does that sound really, really cheap to people?

-That sounds very cheap.

-That's unbelievably cheap.

-Yeah, £170.

-You spent £170 to get your trademark?

Yeah, that's how much it cost.

I've got the certificates for you to look at.

-Actually, can I look at the certificate?

-Yeah. Yeah.

Is this the only...? Have you got another piece of paper?

That's... I think that's all I've give you, yeah.

It's not trademarked, is it?

Well, no, that's what I've been sent to...

-From my accountant.

-It's an examination and acceptance - acceptance...

-Yeah, yeah.

-..of a trademark application.

-Yeah, yeah.

-For publication.

-Yeah.

-Do not...

Please don't look me in the eye and tell me you thought for one second that was a trademark.

I'll be honest with you, I didn't even look at it.

My father is my accountant and I asked him to...

"Am I trademarked?" He said yes.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm a businessman, I know how to sell a product and I'm good at marketing.

Yes, but you also know how to tell me you've got a trademark,

when I asked several times...

Yes, which I honestly believe I had.

Right. How do I know what else is going on that you're telling me and I haven't got a clue?

-Because if you ask me, I'll tell you.

-Ah, but you've just... Oh, God, this is like a...

This is like arguing with cotton wool!

-I'm here to be an open book. And obviously...

-Yeah,

but you're not an open book, because clearly,

-you said categorically, several times, you've got a trademark and you haven't.

-Yeah.

So what else are you completely wrong about in your business?

-That's pretty much it.

-How do you know that?

-Because that's the only

thing I'm not in control of. I'm a control freak.

Which bit DO you have control of?

The running of the business, the everyday business.

-What does that mean, making the food?

-I go in there...

Promoting Pro Gains when you don't own the brand?

Promoting the product.

-When you don't own the brand?

-When I... What?

-I own the business.

-But you don't own Pro Grains.

-Pro Gains.

-Whichever, you don't own it.

Well, no-one owns Pro Gains, apart from...

You don't own Pro Gains, it's not your trademark.

Right, OK. The company, I own the company,

which is what's making the money, not the trademark - the company.

A fractious exchange,

and despite the entrepreneur's spirited defence of his lack of trademark,

Deborah Meaden is not impressed.

And now, Peter Jones seems to be warming up to one of HIS favourite subjects -

the hefty price tag Marco has placed on his company.

Where do you get that this is worth £2.5 million?

I don't think it's worth 2.5 million.

I'm basically valuing it on the progression of the company,

as this month alone, I've turned over 80,000.

But if I gave you £2.5 million to buy this brand off you today...

-Yeah, I wouldn't sell it.

-Well, you'd be mad.

No, I wouldn't be mad.

If I gave you £2.5 million, you'd go sit on a beach and smoke cigars, wouldn't you?

I wouldn't sell it. No way, that's not enough for me to smoke cigars.

I need 20 million, minimum.

What?!

I'm here to succeed, and I'm going to succeed in my product.

I'm not convinced that I could even make this worth two million if I...

Well, I will.

It's worth a million now.

Ah, right, it's worth a million now!

-Yes, sorry, yeah. Sorry, is that what you wanted to know? Sorry.

-Yeah, so...

-it's worth a million.

-That means that you're thinking that for 125,000,

you'd get something like 12%.

-You're offering 12%.

-No, 5%, I said.

-No, you've just told us the business is worth a million.

-Correct.

-So you're going to change your ask?

No.

DRAGONS CHUCKLE

-OK.

-The reason why I'm not changing my ask is because I believe in my

product and I know it's going to succeed.

And with you lot involved, I'm going to get there quicker.

You're also saying, "With your help".

Now, you are accepting that this is very different from us just writing a cheque.

-Of course.

-You would expect one of us to be able to open doors,

which would enable your business to become worth more money.

No, no, it's going to be worth more.

With you, it's going to make my success quicker.

Yes, which would make your business...

If we make it quicker, it would make your business worth more.

Yes, at that... Yeah, but for speed, yes.

Disbelief across the board,

as Marco sticks to his £2.5 million price tag -

a value he's based on his assessment of the business's future potential,

rather than its current worth, which is less than half that.

Food expert Sarah Willingham is confused.

Marco, can I just ask you a question? Have you ever watched Dragons' Den?

-Yeah, of course.

-So have you ever seen anybody walk into the den and say,

"My business is worth half of what I'm asking you to invest in,

"but I'm not going to change the valuation and I want you to invest at that price"?

Have you ever met someone who is that ambitious that he wants to be free from life and be a billionaire?

How many people do you think we see stand in front of us telling us that

their businesses are going to be worth a fortune?

How many people do you know that have started in August and turned over a quarter of a million?

-Well, some.

-Right, OK. How are they doing?

-Well, well.

-Right.

And that's what I'm doing. I want to do better than well. I want to be the best meal prep company.

Have you got something in your past that can help me get across that line and believe that?

Have you made or done other businesses that have been hugely successful?

-That'll just shut me up.

-My life is to do with sales and that's where I've got this confidence.

So have you had a business that's been really successful in the past?

I run other people's businesses,

where I've run strip clubs and bars abroad.

-You see, I wasn't expecting that either!

-No, no. Well, I was...

I worked in Ayia Napa, so you can imagine what I was doing there, so you know.

No, I will not be imagining what was going on in Ayia Napa.

My girlfriend won't be too happy.

Girlfriend or wife?

Girlfriend, future fiancee.

Oh, does she know that?

Yeah, she's one of the pinnacle reasons why I'm succeeding.

I slept in the car for six months with my girlfriend,

working 38-hour shifts, cooking, delivering, doing everything from the bottom.

Marco, all of that...

And I mean this, genuinely.

All of that is very, very admirable.

It motivates me.

Absolutely, I mean that.

-It's very admirable but the outcome of that is not always a successful business...

-No, of course.

..because if it was as easy as saying, "I'll give everything up,

-"sleep on the floor and I'll be really, really wealthy..."

-That's not what I think.

You've got to understand the mechanics of business

and to be honest, your pitch so far has been all over the place.

-Of course, I understand.

-It's not good enough to say that you don't know you've got a trademark.

It's not good enough to say that your value is half the value that you've asked us.

-I'm responsible.

-It's not good enough, and that's what you disappointed on.

-Yeah.

-Not the sales pitch.

-Of course.

-So I'm really sorry, but I won't be investing. I'm out.

A reality check from Deborah Meaden as, perhaps inevitably,

she becomes the first Dragon to refuse to back the self-assured entrepreneur.

But Touker Suleyman hasn't quite given up the ghost on Marco or his nutritious meal business.

I love your drive, your passion.

However, my biggest concern would be health and safety and hygiene.

-Right, OK, yeah.

-For instance, one of my biggest customers is Marks & Spencer's,

-so is your factory, or your kitchen...

-Kitchen, yes.

-Unit converted into a kitchen.

-..suitable for anybody to come in and inspect?

I... It's funny you should say that, because one of my meetings was,

when I first moved into the unit, is,

I went ballistic because of how messy they left it.

I licked the desk and I said, "This is how clean it should be.

"I should be able to lick the desk."

You can imagine all the staff trying to keep a straight face when I was doing that.

I'm trying to keep a straight face.

Well, there you go. And I said, "That's how clean my kitchen should be.

"If it's not clean like that, ask yourself why."

Anyway, all I'm going to say, I don't think I can work with you.

-I wish you all the best, Marco.

-Thank you.

I'm not going to invest. I'm out.

Another Dragon gives Marco's meal prep investment the chop.

Now, the Dragon who made her millions in restaurant roll-outs wants to do some number-crunching.

You said last month you turned over 80,000.

How many meals is that?

I'm averaging 5,000 meals a week.

So you are a quarter of the way there towards your target.

Really impressive.

And who are you selling those 5,000 meals a week to?

Every Tom, Dick and Harry.

The hiccups that I've got now,

I'm here to mend those and iron out those few hiccups with one of you involved.

I'm sorry, that person isn't me.

I'm not going to be the person to get you there. So good luck.

-Thank you.

-I'm afraid I'm out.

If you have turned over how much you turned over in the last month,

first of all, you don't need our money

and I think you personally would probably thrive better

without another investor,

probably because you'd drive the investor mad and the investor would drive you mad.

If you're making this profit,

you can do this and you can find it yourself,

and I've no doubt that you will get there.

I'm afraid I can't invest, so I'm out.

Nick Jenkins decides not to add Pro Gains to his ever-growing portfolio of food-related investments.

Just one Dragon left.

Has Marco's determination and drive got under the skin of Peter Jones?

I know what it's like to sleep on the floor.

-Yeah.

-I spent eight months of my life in a warehouse.

-Yeah.

-And I didn't even have warm water.

-Yeah.

-I didn't have any money.

-Yeah.

-There's a little part of me that took me back 20 years,

and it's in you and I can see it.

You do have something.

-You do have a business that has delivered a quarter of a million of revenue.

-That's correct.

Not many people can go and do that from nothing.

-No.

-And you've done it.

You know what? You are the type of individual

that is wholly investable with a bit of help.

However, there is a big difference, though.

When I dreamt... And there's nothing wrong with having ridiculous dreams,

because you're coming across as frankly ridiculous...

-OK.

-..with your statements about your aspirations and your dreams,

when it's not backed up with some real business sense.

But my...my dream...

Hang on.

Marco, I'm not going to invest.

-OK.

-But I'm going to send you on your way saying good luck to you, and I hope, in life...

-We'll meet again.

-..it turns out to be good for you.

-We'll meet again.

-I'm out.

-Thank you very much.

-Good.

-Good luck.

-Thank you.

So Marco is leaving the den without a Dragon investor,

and his trademark application was subsequently refused

and he's since given the company a new name.

I believe that they feared me, they feared my dominance.

They are Dragons but I'm a bigger Dragon. I'm an evolved Dragon.

It's a powerful mind-set that I've got and I'm just an evolution of what they are.

Next up are business partners Danielle Barnett and David Holmes.

They've got long careers in showbiz behind them

and think their invention is bound to be a hit, too.

It's been a very long journey to get to this point,

and we've had a lot of pitfalls and a lot of lessons to learn.

Heart rate's high. Oh, my gosh!

But we've picked ourselves up,

made ourselves stronger and continued the fight,

because we truly believe, with what we've got, we can make a difference.

HEAVY METAL RIFFS

Bravo.

Very good.

Hello, Dragons.

It's an absolute pleasure to meet you.

Lee, thanks. Brilliant.

What you've just heard is the world's first analogue optical guitar cable,

and it's called a light lead.

My name is Danielle Barnett. I'm David Holmes.

-DANIELLE:

-We're here today to ask for £70,000 investment in our

company for 20% equity share.

I've worked with Danielle for over 20 years.

We've managed two top ten acts and we've toured all over the world.

My cousin was a guitarist in one of these bands and he would always use a copper cable to play his guitar.

He said he preferred the sound over wireless or digital systems.

But one day, he stepped forward to play his guitar

and out of his amplifier came a radio signal.

So I looked into the copper cable

and found it's made of hundreds of tiny, hair-like copper strands.

These strands break over time and cause interference in the tuner,

until eventually, the whole thing acts as a giant radio tuner.

The obvious solution to me was to not use copper wire, but to use an optical fibre.

But all optical fibre systems these days are digital,

so I developed my own analogue optical guitar cable.

We've had rave reviews from everybody that's used our light lead,

including Mike Chapman and Rick Simpson, who is Coldplay's producer.

And he has just finished producing Coldplay's Grammy award-winning album,

Head Full Of Dreams, where he used the light lead on their guitars.

-DANIELLE:

-Do any of the Dragons play guitar?

Would you like to try?

I don't play guitar at all, but, yes, I guess I'm going to be the...

It doesn't matter. Just anything.

-Anything.

-Strum it.

-I wish I had learned. Amazing.

-DAVID:

-Right, put this over your, over your shoulder.

Switch the amp on.

Go on, do it...

DRAGONS CHUCKLE

-Fantastic!

-Born rock star!

Right.

A rock and roll pitch from Danielle Barnett and David Holmes.

They're looking for £70,000 in return for 20% of their business

which makes fibre-optic guitar leads.

It certainly brought out the showman in Touker Suleyman.

Now, he's taking centre stage with the questions.

Right, simply the best, better than all the rest?

-Yes.

-Mike Chapman.

-Of course.

-Mike is a personal friend of mine.

I saw him last week, actually.

So tell me about your background, David.

Well, I've worked with Danielle for 20 years.

20 years. I've always been an audio engineer.

-DANIELLE:

-My background is also in music.

I'm the lead singer, I have been for 16 years,

for a song that was number one in 1993 called The Key, The Secret,

-Urban Cookie Collective.

-How does it go?

# I got the key I got the secret... #

-Wow!

-Do you remember that?

To be fair, I've been doing it 16 years and the original singer was called Diane Charlemagne.

When she left, I took over.

I've had the blast, you know?

But I've seen, you know, microphone cables, there's a faulty cable...

If we can implement our technology into devices,

you won't get that problem with faulty cables any more.

It will literally be, plug in, they don't break.

What you are saying is your product lasts,

not just long, it lasts a lifetime, over and above a copper product?

Yes. Copper products do go wrong.

If you think about that from a business perspective,

what does that tell you about your product?

If your product is so good that you only buy it once...

-Yes, understandably.

-..you're not going to need repeat business. Have you thought about that?

Absolutely, we have. I've worked on stages most of my life.

The amount of times I have put an amp down on a copper cable and severed it.

I mean, accidents happen. Cables break.

-So you can still break this cable?

-DAVID:

-You can still cut it in half.

-DANIELLE:

-You can cut it in half.

I know nothing about this, but if you do sell it,

I'm worried that you've got no repeat business.

The entrepreneurs are certainly displaying some stage presence,

but Peter Jones has uncovered a potential flaw in one of their product's biggest selling points.

And Deborah Meaden wants to know whether their invention has struck a chord with industry insiders.

The big guys, are they aware of you?

You know, the current operators?

They are aware of us. We went to one of the high-end cable companies.

I said, "Would you like to test it against your high-end cables?"

And so they plugged in their top-of-the-range,

I think it was like a ten-foot cable, and then they plugged in the light lead

and there was no difference.

Ours is a 30-foot cable.

He said to me, he goes, "I don't know why anyone hasn't done this before."

I said, "Nor do I!"

So, but what happened next?

What I would have then expected is for them to say, "Look, we need to talk".

Basically, we've had two working prototypes.

Like, Fender wanted to take it away for two months.

If it gets lost, if it gets broken, we're down to one.

We haven't had the money. We've just had the passion and the belief.

I mean, what I'm trying to work out is if this is a great idea or a great business?

There's a massive difference between the two.

In the Den, money always talks and the absence of any orders is speaking volumes.

Will Nick Jenkins be able to envisage a route to a profitable future?

It strikes me that the single most useful bit of marketing that you could do

is to get this cable into the hands of the top guitarists in the world.

What would it cost to produce 200 of these cables?

Our minimum cable order is 10km, which would cost 15,000.

That is the cheapest way of buying the cable,

otherwise, the cable becomes expensive to buy in short runs.

It doesn't matter if prototypes are more expensive.

What matters is having 200 of these things to get into the hands of guitarists.

Absolutely.

You could do that. You don't need to buy 10km to do that.

What matters is that you get them in the hands of people whose judgment is unquestioned.

Absolutely. We've used our prototypes to get it into the hands of...

Coldplay have used our prototype on their new album.

But you've only got two.

We've got just two, I know, it's ironic.

For God's sake, make 100 of them and get more prototypes in the hands of more people.

Everything else will follow from that.

It strikes me that you're probably in a better position to do that than I am,

because I don't have a whole load of the world's top guitarists on speed dial.

So I'm out.

One Dragon down,

as Nick Jenkins offers advice, but pulls the plug on a deal.

Now Sarah Willingham wants more information about that big celebrity endorsement.

You're hanging your hat on the Coldplay thing, which is great.

They've obviously used it and thought it was really good, but what happened after that?

So they're using a prototype, which they have presumably given back...

-No, they've still got it.

-So you've only got one prototype now?

No, we had three. Now we've got two.

But, you know, we've got Mike Chapman and Mike Chapman has basically said

there's not a guitar player out there who won't want one of these.

Yeah, but the point is, yes,

you might have got people to use them and, yes,

they said that's great, but if it was really great, they're, like,

"You're not having this back.

"You're going to have to go out and make another one,

"or I'm putting in an order for 100 of these,

"because we're just about to do a round-the-world tour and I need these cables in my life."

Now, that hasn't happened, has it?

So I'm afraid I'm out.

Sarah Willingham isn't convinced by the product's popularity.

Does Deborah Meaden have any experience to draw upon which could shed

some light on its potential?

This isn't my area of expertise.

-No.

-The closest I ever came to it was my years of bingo calling, you know.

But oddly enough,

-our biggest issue was blinking microphone leads that were constantly...

-Thank you.

You know, you'd be in the middle of your busiest time and suddenly,

your microphone lead was crackling and cracking up.

Oddly, I know it, completely separate, but I get the problem.

But you've got a lot of people out there with a lot of money who love your product.

There could not be a stronger statement to say that we've got

this amazing thing, how about you invest in our business?

-Absolutely.

-That would be my first port of call.

-Yeah.

-I would've sent it out there and I'd have said,

"How about we change the industry together?"

Because they've got a lot of money.

It sounds to me like you've got something,

but I'm not the best person to judge whether or not that, you know...

-But I won't be investing.

-Right, OK.

-I'm out.

A further blow for the entrepreneurs

as Deborah Meaden becomes the third Dragon to decline the deal,

citing her lack of industry knowledge or contacts.

Peter Jones has an enviable black book of contact numbers,

but is he prepared to pick up the phone?

It's very difficult sometimes sitting in the chair to work out...

You don't really know too much about it,

you're seeing where it could go,

but your level of excitement

is nowhere near matched to the person pitching.

And that's not being rude,

it's just because I'm really struggling with the whole piece.

Good luck to you, but it's not for me. I'm out.

Peter Jones fails to see the potential in the product,

making it four Dragons out.

Only Touker Suleyman remains.

Is he prepared to take a punt

and throw the passionate entrepreneurs

the cash lifeline they so desperately need?

-Am I the last one?

-You're the last Dragon.

-The last Dragon!

Oh, you've got so much energy, so much enthusiasm.

Let me ask you a question.

-Could you afford to make 100 of these yourselves?

-No.

-You can't?

-No.

And the thing is, as well, it's...

Manufacturing it,

-it's like a whole new world for me.

-I know.

Well, I tell you what, erm...

This is my offer.

Bless your heart, Touker!

I will give you the 70,000...

..for 35% of the business.

Do you know what?

-We will do that.

-We'll do it.

-We'll do that.

-Thank you.

-Thank you.

-All right?

-Thank you so much.

-OK.

-Thank you very much.

A deal but with a hefty price tag,

15% more than the entrepreneurs were looking to give away,

but in return, they get the key and the secret to success

in the form of a wealthy business partner.

So blessed.

She's great.

Wow.

Let's hug.

-That was a bit crazy, wasn't it?

-That was a roller-coaster...

-It was a real roller-coaster.

-..of emotion.

Bless his heart!

Bless Touker for giving us a chance,

because that's what we need, is a chance.

-Still to come...

-Talk about manual labour.

..Dragon doubts...

I just want to know what you've got that's absolutely amazing

that supports any kind of valuation at all, really.

..Dragon disagreements...

I think Deborah's making a big error of judgment there.

..and a family on tenterhooks in the reaction room.

-Oh, my God!

-Oh, my God!

Now, what do you get when you cross a map with a waterproof fabric?

Well, you get the product that David Overton, our next entrepreneur,

is pitching.

He thinks he's solved a long-standing problem

for outdoorsy types,

but he now has to go in through the doors of the Den lift

to navigate his way through an encounter with the Dragons.

I swing between moments of thinking,

"This is going to be the most amazing thing,"

and trying to hold myself back from saying, "Wow!" when the doors open,

and other moments where I'm thinking

my jaw's going to drop open

and I'm going to fall into a melted pile on the ground

as soon as I go through the door.

My name's David Overton

and I'm MD of the award-winning fabric map business

Splash Maps.

Formally, I was the innovation manager at Ordnance Survey,

so I know a thing or two about maps,

but, today, I'd like to offer you 15% of my own mapping business

for £60,000.

Picture this. If you go out into the countryside,

you would do well to get yourself a paper map,

but straight away, you have to engage

in some pretty complex origami.

God forbid there's any wind,

you wouldn't be able to deal with that

and if it's going to be rainy or if there's going to be mud,

then you'll need to cover it in one of these,

and the whole thing starts to get a bit bulky.

Splash Maps offers you...

..simple navigation and discovery without any of that fuss.

Splash Maps are produced using the best in digital print technology

and geographic services to bring you washable, wearable maps.

With this map, you can just screw it up, stick it in your pocket,

up your Lycra shorts, if you're that way inclined,

and if it gets muddy or dirty,

you just throw it in the washing machine afterwards.

We've turned over £35,000 in the last year

and I'm confident that, with the right Dragon on board,

we can reach our target of 1.8 million turnover in year three.

Wow.

Now, I have prepared some maps of areas that you may find...

familiar.

Hoping to make a splash in the Den is David Overton from Hampshire.

-Peter, there's one for you.

-Thank you very much.

He's looking to give away 15% of his company,

but in return wants a £60,000 cash injection.

Rather scarily found my home address.

-It wasn't easy, I can tell you.

-Good!

I'm glad to hear it!

David may have located the Dragons' addresses,

but Peter Jones isn't having as much luck

pinpointing the purpose of the product.

Is this a scarf? What is this?

It's a map. It's a map.

I kind of get that, but what do I do with it?

You could run with it, mountain bike with it.

-What, I run with it? Hold it?

-Take it where you're going to get muddy.

There's nothing special about it. I wouldn't make it into a scarf.

You wouldn't necessarily, no, but if you were going for a run,

or something like that... Like I have today, I wouldn't normally

wear this with a suit, but it's for this.

You could wear that as a scarf.

Would you wear it? Your home address map?

Put it round your neck. Let's have a look. How would you look?

-Show me.

-Well, I know how I would look.

-I would look ridiculous...

-No, you won't.

..wearing the A-Z around my neck!

Is this on poly or is it on silk?

That's on a satin, that one.

What do you pay for that?

For that we pay £4.

What do you sell it for?

Personalised larger one,

we sell at £28.99.

£28.99?

That's right, yeah, yeah.

Touker Suleyman isn't convinced the maps

are worth the fabric they're printed on.

Will the Den's king of personalised gifting

see more value in the business?

I love Ordnance Survey.

At the risk of appearing to be a cartographic geek,

I absolutely love Ordnance Survey maps

and what they have done over hundreds of years

of making a piece of paper come to life and tell you where you are.

I am your target market, I really am, but...

..is there any reason why they can't produce this?

Erm, they don't know the printers.

They've shown no... They have tried it in the past...

-There's hundreds of printers.

-Touker! Touker! Touker!

Touker, this is an area I know very well.

-I know about digital printing.

-Of course.

I have a digital printing business.

We use this map stuff for personalised gift wrap,

so it's nothing that Ordnance Survey couldn't do for themselves.

This particular thing, Ordnance Survey has tried and has stopped,

and they tried to launch it and they didn't do it.

OK, a bit of a clue there. There's a bit of a clue.

A pitch slowly going south

as David fails to convince Nick Jenkins

that there's a market for his maps,

but it's his £400,000 company valuation

that's unnerving Deborah Meaden.

I'm sitting here thinking, "In a minute, he's going to say something

"that is going to explain to me why it's worth £400,000."

I just want to know what you've got that's absolutely amazing

that supports any kind of valuation at all, really.

Yes, we are unique in that we provide these maps

that are printed onto weatherproof fabric.

I'm still struggling to find out

why you think it's worth £400,000.

Erm... Well, the... The...

The expansion of the business over the last year has been terrific.

Ooh, please! You've taken £35,000!

-I know.

-Now, that will worry me. If you think that's terrific,

I'm more worried now than I was before,

because £35,000 is not terrific.

Doubts about the market,

doubts about the product

and, now, doubts over the numbers from Deborah Meaden.

Does the Den's king of cloth

think that David's business is investment material?

I think digital printing has lots of opportunity,

both in fabric format and other sorts of formats,

because you can print anything,

but I believe that what you're doing, Splash Maps,

is only very, very niche.

-It could be your hobby...

-Yeah.

-..but it's not my hobby,

because my money is more important than that.

For that reason, I'm out.

Touker, I'm sorry to hear about that.

I had big dreams of us manufacturing together, but...

I'm out.

Touker Suleyman has neither the time nor the inclination

for David's product, becoming the first Dragon

to turn him down on his proposal,

and now Sarah Willingham is ready to map out her intentions.

I totally get the gift market, I really do.

I think it's quite a neat little gift,

something that is personalised to their home address.

I don't really get the printed-on fabric thing, if I'm being honest.

I wouldn't pay the premium between the printed-on fabric and the map,

because it's quite expensive.

So, yes, I'm afraid I'm out.

I don't think it's going to be a massive business.

You have to pay a licence on everything,

so you don't even own that bit.

You've got a bit of technology that I'm sure we could replicate.

So I won't be investing, I'm sorry.

I'm really sorry to hear that, Deborah.

-I'm out.

-I'll miss you.

Too many sticking points means two more Dragons decline the deal.

Can map enthusiast Nick Jenkins put aside his earlier concerns

and find a market for David's all-weather maps?

Ordnance Survey have spent hundreds of years building up their brand.

They have a brand that is 1,000 times more powerful

than your brand could ever be

and they are the go-to people for maps.

I don't think there's enough room in it for other people.

You can't protect it.

So I'm afraid, for that reason, I can't invest and I'm out.

I'm so sorry to hear about that.

That's...

That's awful.

An unusually honest reaction to the loss of a key Dragon.

But there's still one investor in play.

Will Peter Jones signal the end of the road

for the affable entrepreneur?

I think your love and passion for maps

has clearly come out in a business belief,

but I don't think it's going to be adopted.

I also think you have an incredibly tiny opportunity

in terms of the market size.

So, as a business, David, I'm going to say that I'm out,

because I don't see how you can make a lot of money,

-but good luck.

-Good luck.

-Thank you very much, all of you.

It's been a real experience being here. Thank you.

Defeat.

The amiable entrepreneur leaves the Den

with no more cash than when he went in.

Do you need a map to get out of the building or you're OK?

If you've got one spare!

Thank you. Bye-bye.

Argh!

Our final entrepreneur is here

with an idea he first took to market over a decade ago.

Well, when I first started, it was like a great voyage

that we were going to go on, you know,

but we didn't understand the market,

how it worked, who we should be selling to,

and it was quite apparent after a short period

that we were going to lose all of our money,

so we nearly lost the house and everything.

After hitting rock-bottom,

he's back in business with the same product,

but a whole new strategy for success.

It's all about survival, really. What do you do next, you know?

But now I'm in a position again where I need money

or, you know, a good investor to take this to the next level.

Andrew's wife Helen and daughter Sonia

have been with him every step of the way.

Oh, my heart's pounding. My heart's absolutely pounding.

They'll be watching his pitch from our new reaction room

to see if he can clinch a life-changing investment.

I'm so scared for him. I'm so scared. I feel as if I'm with him.

It's just everything he's worked for.

Hello, Dragons. My name is Andrew Doris

and I'm here today to ask you for £40,000

in return for 25% equity in my company.

Across the UK and Europe,

there are literally millions and millions of manhole covers.

Now, to lift a manhole cover should be really simple.

You go to a shop, you buy a lifting key,

you go back to the cover,

you put the key in the eyelet and lift.

So, to demonstrate, I've brought a key

and I've brought a manhole cover, and you can see...

..it doesn't fit.

And that's just one of the problems.

And, if you look at the bottom cover there, you can see

a selection of eyelets that you find. So what I have made...

I've made a universal manhole cover lifting key kit

and what's unique about this product -

it has 14 quick-release interchangeable end tips,

so what you want to do now, if you want to lift any cover,

you simply pick the tip to suit

and on this occasion it's a 20mm key tip.

So, who buys drain lifting keys?

Lots of different industries.

We have water. We have telecoms.

We have plumbers. We have all utilities - gas, water, electric.

And the list goes on and on.

Since I brought this product to market...

I did it three years ago as a sideline to my full-time job.

And within that time, I've sold just under 10,000 kits

and whilst it took Screwfix just under one minute

to decide it was for them,

the likes of Travis Perkins and RS Components

said I'm too small a supplier for them.

That's my product, that's my pitch

and I welcome any questions.

-He done it!

-Oh, he did it.

That's the hard bit for him over.

Andrew Doris from Northumberland thinks his product,

which radically reduces the equipment needed to open manholes,

has the key to success in the Den.

-There you go.

-Thank you.

You actually get two handles and another piece, as well.

He's hoping to engineer a £40,000 investment

in exchange for 25% of his company.

Deborah Meaden already has a portfolio

of successful investments in the building trade

and she's keen to drill down into how lucrative this one could be.

-So, at the moment, you're currently stocked in Screwfix.

-Yes.

-Presumably online.

-Yes, online, yes. That's correct.

-How the bloody hell does this work?

-OK. And how many have they sold?

The first year they sold 800 and the second year they're selling 1,000.

So where have you got them off in physical store?

There's no physical stores.

It's just retailers who stock them, who supply to the drainage industry

and then just small retailers.

Sorry, I was just sidetracked by Peter taking it back out again.

That's all right. Blooming hell, talk about manual labour.

So, you're parked with Travis Perkins,

but did you get any feedback on the product itself?

Yeah, they... They liked it.

I even had a couple of stores afterwards phone me up and say,

"Can we have some more?"

And I said, "I'm not allowed to give you any more

"until I get an official order from, you know, from head office."

Are you finding this distracting?

-Do you want to have a conversation with Peter?

-I'm very sorry.

No, I am sorry. Yeah.

So, tell me the shape of the business.

How much money are you turning over? How much money are you making?

The first-year turnover was £41,000.

-The gross profit was 35,000.

-Right.

The second year turnover was £53,000.

Gross profit was 43,000.

And the third year turnover was £61,000.

Gross profit was...

-Sorry.

-50-something?

Yeah, it was, it was...

It was only another £1,000 more.

-So 50.

-Yes. I'm very sorry about that.

-No, that's OK.

-And what about your net profit?

-My net profit?

-Net profit.

-On the last one was 37,000.

-OK, so you're making money.

Yes, making money.

That's the figures over. Oh, my God.

It took a bit of handholding,

but Andrew's managed to reveal some respectable sales

and an impressive margin.

But Touker Suleyman is not entirely convinced by what he's heard.

What's the cost?

The cost to have it made is £14.50 on the shelf to my door.

So how do you get your 70-odd%, 80% margin?

I don't understand.

Oh, it's hard questions again.

I... By no accounts do I know anything about money.

I went to my accountant and I asked him to do the figures

and that's the figures he gave me.

I questioned it because it looked funny to me.

You know, this is the thing - it's that that was out of my control.

It's not out of your control. You're running a business.

-It's supposed to be well within your control.

-I know.

But you've... You've said... I mean, I was very excited by this.

I was thinking, "Wow, you know, this is amazing.

"Why is he asking us for money? He's making 36,000."

But it's not, is it?

No.

Oh, my God, don't. Don't crumble.

So these... Should we just ignore these numbers that you've given us?

Erm, well, that was not in my intention, no.

Sorry, what? It wasn't...

It wasn't my intention to bring false figures in.

Oh, he's not saying he's got false figures.

When I seen them, I questioned the accountant. I said,

"There's no way I've made this."

Look, you had plenty of time to question your accountant

-before you came on the programme.

-I'm sorry, I really am.

It's going bad.

I mean, if you thought it was a bit iffy

and then you know you're going on a TV programme

and millions of people are going to watch it...

-Yeah.

-Argh!

Didn't it occur to you to kind of check them?

I'm sorry, that's just blown it.

OK.

I'm afraid I can't invest, so I'm out.

A first and early rejection

as a result of Andrew's confusion over those classic Den numbers.

And now Deborah Meaden wants to know

how the inventor's managing to run a business

whilst holding down a full-time job.

Is this a separate company that this is being done in,

or are you doing it as part of your other business?

It's a separate company and there is a reason for it,

which I would like to share.

It's... I first encountered this product,

I'd say, about 18 years ago,

so then I left my job and I had a bit of equity in the house,

so I borrowed some money.

I borrowed heavily and I lost an absolute fortune.

And so, when I was down on my luck sort of thing,

my brother...

Sorry.

Yeah, my brother stepped in

and gave me a job.

Good brother.

And then, three years ago, I said, "Can we do this again?"

And he used his company as the platform to launch the new product.

And so he said, "If it takes off, it's yours, away you go."

-What a good brother.

-Mm-hm.

-Oh, God, he's going to cry now.

-I know.

He does, as soon as they talk about family.

Andrew, what did happen back then?

Sorry, are you not married at this time?

Yeah, I was married and I'd just had a little baby, my fourth child.

OK.

-I'm really sorry.

-It's all right.

Yep.

You remortgaged the house,

-put all of the money into this...

-Yep.

..and what happened?

Erm...

Right, I did all the marketing, got it all right.

When I went to market, people just said, "It's too expensive."

So I had to...

..try and sell everything that I had...

..at, you know, at stupid prices...

..just to get some money back.

-What did your wife say?

-"Stupid bugger."

But she just supports whatever I do. She's just behind me.

But, Andrew, what is different today

and why am I not going to be the one, if I invested,

-crying in two years' time?

-Yeah, there's a massive difference.

First of all, when I went back and asked people what was wrong,

they said, "It's just far too expensive."

And what I had, I had the Rolls-Royce of these.

And that's what I missed. I should have been making something

a lot cheaper, which was still strong,

whereas, now the price is the right price.

You know, it's £34.99 as opposed to £225.

So it's a massive, massive difference.

Andrew's wearing his heart on his sleeve

whilst proving he's a businessman who can learn from his mistakes

and it looks like that's made a good impression on Deborah Meaden.

Do you know...

..I like it.

Ooh. Oh, my God!

Oh, that's good. Thank you.

Did you talk about protection?

The original patent that I had on my old product, time lapsed.

-So your patent has lapsed?

-Yeah.

It was all down to money, again.

Nobody was going to let me risk it.

Oh.

-That's... That's a bit of a blow.

-It is.

-That is... That was... I was getting all excited then.

-Yes.

Oh, no! She's not excited any more.

You are...

-You're nowhere in terms of your sales.

-No.

-I'd like to think there was much more to go for.

-Yeah.

I'm going to ask you something

that you need to think about very carefully.

I'm concerned

that you are not necessarily...

..the right person to drive this business forward.

I totally agree.

But I do think you've got a nice product, here.

-Oh, my God.

-She's such a tease!

She's not doing that yet.

I am a little concerned, unfortunately,

the fact that its patent's lapsed is very disappointing.

OK.

But I am going to make you an offer.

Oh, my God.

But it's going to be based on me finding you a business partner

who would work with you, but pretty much...

-OK.

-..run the business.

That's what we want. That's what he wants.

So I am going to make you an offer

and I'm going to offer you all of the money...

..but I want 35% of the business.

OK, thank you.

An offer,

and from an investor with a proven track record in Andrew's industry.

Will Sarah Willingham also want a piece of the action?

-Andrew.

-Hi.

I think you've got an amazing offer, I really do,

and I'm not going to compete with that.

I think it's a brilliant offer.

I'm afraid I'm not going to invest,

so good luck, but I'm afraid I'm out.

Thank you very much.

And, Andrew, your story is actually inspirational, so...

in terms of your product,

it seems brilliant and it does exactly what it does

and says on the tin.

But he's not... He's out.

I'm also going to make you an offer.

-Oh, my God!

-Oh, my God!

And I'm going to offer you all of the money...

..but I want 40%.

But I would share it if Deborah wanted to share it.

I know that Deborah's got one investment in particular

that I'm thinking of that I think would be very interesting,

because they're dealing with very similar people

in terms of its supplier base.

The two people he loves.

40% on my own or I would share it, if Deborah was willing to share it

at 17.5%.

Two offers on the table

and the proposal of a double Dragon deal from Peter Jones.

But there's still one Dragon yet to reveal his intentions.

Perhaps you do need two Dragons.

I would also come in to share with a Dragon.

You're joking!

-OK.

-On what... On what basis?

Well, I'm just saying, on the basis that, if it could be 17.5% each...

I can't believe this. I can't believe this is happening.

How do you feel, Deborah?

Honestly, this...

I'm not sure this is one I'd want to share.

Whether that means I lose the investment,

I will be very disappointed, but

I personally think that I...

Certainly in the business that Peter was talking about,

which has gone from nothing to worth £12 million in 18 months

in exactly the same sector that we are talking about here,

I'd rather have all of that,

so I'm afraid I'm not up for sharing.

Peter, are you up to sharing with me?

My thing was actually Deborah.

Being brutal.

She mentioned the investment.

I was being fairly tactical in offering it with Deborah,

because there are certain things that occur in the Den

that you know that somebody's got experience of.

I'm a bit disappointed. I don't think it would be as successful

-if I wasn't part of it.

-Oh, he's like a little left-out child!

I think Deborah's making a big error of judgment there.

Well, he would say that, wouldn't he?

And you definitely just want it on your own?

OK.

OK, on that basis, I'm out.

Touker Suleyman is outmanoeuvred

as Peter Jones refuses a business two-piece

with the fashion retail giant,

which leaves Andrew with a decision to make.

Can I just have a minute, please?

Of course. Absolutely. Go and talk to the wall.

Will he choose Deborah Meaden at 35%

or Peter Jones at 40?

I think go for Deborah because go with what Deborah says.

-Does he have his phone on him?

-No, he hasn't!

Deborah!

I think I'd like to go with Deborah

-and accept your offer, please.

-Excellent.

Yes!

-Well done.

-Pleased to hear it.

-Well done, Andrew. I look forward to it.

-Amazing.

-Brilliant.

A deal. It looks like Andrew's dark days are over

as he decides Deborah Meaden is the Dragon to propel him to success.

It's OK to be excited.

He exits the Den with a well-connected investor

and the prospect of a profitable future.

-Here he is. Here he is.

-That was fab.

-Oh, my God, well done.

-Thank you.

-Well done.

I don't usually cry, you know, I really don't,

but, my God, to let somebody in on your story

and then them believe you, it's amazing.

Absolutely amazing.

An emotional finale, there.

Andrew Doris is living proof that you can turn your fortunes around,

both in business and in the Den.

Congratulations to him on his new partnership with Deborah Meaden

and also to Danielle Barnett and David Holmes,

who now have Touker Suleyman on their team.

Coming up next time...

We present to you...

..the pork scratching.

You can't throw your arms in the air

and say, "Well, maybe between 50 and £100,000."

Ridiculous.

This is not unique.

You're in for a disaster.

I think this is right up your alley.

LAUGHTER

Is it because I do that?

I think you have done a great job,

so I'm going to make you an offer.

I'll make you an offer.

I'm also going to make you an offer.

Give me an answer.