Browse content similar to 22/05/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Good afternoon and welcome to the Daily Politics. We need more energy | :00:42. | :00:46. | |
or the lights will go out. But how do ministers plan to generate it | :00:46. | :00:52. | |
and how much more will it cost? Today they publish their plans. | :00:52. | :00:55. | |
The police could be forced to investigate allegations of anti- | :00:55. | :00:59. | |
social behaviour if more than five people complain. But what do the | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
boys in blue make of the Home Secretary's scheme? | :01:02. | :01:08. | |
Tony Blair said he had scars on his back trying to reform public | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
services, is so wide to the Labour Party oppose reforms seeking to do | :01:11. | :01:18. | |
that? -- why do the Labour Party? And a leading philosopher tells us | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
why they should be some things that money cannot buy. | :01:21. | :01:29. | |
The breaking news this lunchtime is that the International Monetary | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
Fund's made an interesting assessment of the health of the UK | :01:32. | :01:37. | |
economy. Lord Adonis, the New Labour Action Man, welcome to the | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
programme. You have been asked to head up the industry strategy for | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
the party. Let's start with a House of Lords, a subject close to your | :01:45. | :01:54. | |
heart. Do you support the plans for an 80-20 elected-appointed to House | :01:54. | :02:02. | |
of Lords? An opinion poll found that 0% of the House -- of the | :02:02. | :02:07. | |
public felt that the House of Lords reform was important. So it may not | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
be important right now. I have always thought that the House of | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
Lords should be elected and Parliament should be elected. | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
Either be perfectly happy and indeed enthusiastic about standing | :02:16. | :02:21. | |
for election if the Lords were to be reformed. On the central | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
principle of should it be elected or not, the answer is yes. But on | :02:25. | :02:28. | |
the political thing, will you support the coalition's plans when | :02:28. | :02:32. | |
it comes out? The key thing is that there should be a referendum and of | :02:32. | :02:37. | |
course I support that. The same opinion poll showed that 0% thought | :02:37. | :02:43. | |
that there should be reform also thought that there should be a | :02:43. | :02:47. | |
referendum. People should have their say. What about the Labour | :02:48. | :02:57. | |
peers that might vote against, with the rebel peers? We fought the last | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
election on a commitment to have a democratically elected House of | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
Lords. We also said there should be a referendum, so I think the right | :03:05. | :03:10. | |
way forward, and I hope that party leaders can agree this, is to have | :03:10. | :03:16. | |
a predominantly or wholly elected second chamber with the people. | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
on the basis of what you have just said, it may not happen at all. | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
That would defeat the purpose. think watch this space. It is quite | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
possible that the coalition could decide that the way to bring | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
everyone on board is a referendum. What about moving to Manchester? | :03:31. | :03:38. | |
Why would that be a good idea? those people that come from North | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
of Birmingham are very keen. they? I have got a very positive | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
response. Even though people don't want reform of the House of Lords? | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
The existing House of Lords moving there, they think that is a good | :03:50. | :03:56. | |
idea. People from London, not so keen, very telling. People in the | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
House of Lords are essentially Londoners, so we did not get an a | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
disaster response from the South. I would not count your chickens on | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
that one. -- we did not get an enthusiastic response from the | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
South. Some good news for the economy. The | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
consumer prices measure has fallen to 3%, the lowest level in three | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
years. But if ministers felt good about that, it will not have lasted | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
long. The head of the IMF was in town. Christine Lagarde said that | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
she shivered to think of the state of the British economy had the | :04:28. | :04:30. | |
Government not put a deficit reduction plan into place two years | :04:31. | :04:36. | |
ago. So far so good for George Osborne. She went on to say that | :04:36. | :04:38. | |
ministers have to prepare to change direction if growth failed to | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
materialise. Unfortunately the economic recovery | :04:43. | :04:48. | |
in the UK has not yet taken hold and uncertainty is abound. The | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
stresses in the eurozone affect the UK through many channels. Growth is | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
too slow and unemployment, including youth unemployment, is | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
too high. Policies to bolster demand before low growth becomes | :05:00. | :05:06. | |
entrenched are needed. Well, our political correspondent was | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
listening to Christine Lagarde. What is she actually saying? That | :05:10. | :05:15. | |
the Government should now look at a plan B? She was not saying that | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
explicitly. I think on the whole the Treasury will be pleased with | :05:18. | :05:24. | |
the IMF's assessment of how they have done so far. It is approval of | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
their strategy. It was a fascinating moment in her press | :05:28. | :05:31. | |
conference when she said that she shivered to think what would have | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
happened if they had not been a deficit reduction plan in place in | :05:34. | :05:44. | |
the UK. So good so far. But with that backdrop of stagnant growth | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
and uncertainty across the global economy, she is saying that they | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
should be a plan B in the Treasury's pocket in case recovery | :05:53. | :05:58. | |
does not emerge. She says the Treasury should consider further | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
fiscal easing measures, including temporary tax cuts. And in the | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
press conference that followed her remarks, one of the IMF officials | :06:06. | :06:12. | |
talked about the VAT cut playing right into a very charged and | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
relevant political debate between Labour and the Government. And | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
perhaps boosting demand may also be needed if growth does not appear | :06:23. | :06:29. | |
soon. That will be something that Labour will jump on. They will. | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
They are saying that the structure of the Government's plan is wrong | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
and it is snuffing out growth by having a deficit reduction plan | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
that is too severe. Labour of course argue that it should be | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
slightly slower and the screw should be loosened. Christine | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
Lagarde is not endorsing that. She is saying that there may need to be | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
measures to stimulate the economy further down the line. That is | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
something that Labour have been calling for and we have not had a | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
response yet from Labour, not that I have seen. They will seize on her | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
remarks, I am sure, arguing for fiscal easing measures to boost | :07:03. | :07:08. | |
growth. She has stepped into a very controversial part of the political | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
debate and there is something for both sides, to be honest. All right. | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
Matthew Hancock, the Conservative MP, is with us now. He is a close | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
associate of the Chancellor, George Osborne. Welcome back. Christine | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
Lagarde did endorse the Government's plan of cutting the | :07:24. | :07:29. | |
deficit from 2010. But she also said that we have to prepare for | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
Plan B. Is the Treasury planning for that? Let's look at what she | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
said. She said tersely that the fiscal consolidation dealing with | :07:37. | :07:46. | |
our deficit is on track. -- firstly. People watching will be pleased to | :07:46. | :07:52. | |
hear that a quarter of the progress has been made. She also said that | :07:52. | :07:54. | |
growth is disappointing. We all know that. She explained the | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
reasons. She said there was no growth and high unemployment in | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
Britain, which was a worry, and that is why they are calling for | :08:02. | :08:07. | |
austerity to be relaxed. That is not what she said. Hold on. Let's | :08:07. | :08:12. | |
explain what she actually said. She said tersely that there should not | :08:12. | :08:18. | |
be a fiscal relaxing now. -- firstly. And if growth continues to | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
disappoint, then the first recourse should be looser monetary policy, | :08:22. | :08:28. | |
lower interest rates, more clubs to be easing. And it is for the Bank | :08:28. | :08:34. | |
of England to make that decision. - - more quantitative easing. I would | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
support that decision if they decided to make it. They also want | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
measures for small businesses, which the Government announced in | :08:42. | :08:47. | |
November and brought in the Budget. And thirdly, changing the mixture | :08:47. | :08:55. | |
of spending, away from spending on things like benefits and salaries | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
and more towards infrastructure spending. Only if Gross still | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
disappoints, and there has been substantial amounts of that, then | :09:03. | :09:09. | |
we should consider other options. - - if growth disappoints. The idea | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
that Ed Balls should listen to that programme, the proposals put | :09:13. | :09:15. | |
forward, and listen to the confirmation of the Government's | :09:15. | :09:20. | |
strategy, which has been fiscal responsibility and monetary | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
activism, and that as a proposition for what should happen, actually | :09:24. | :09:29. | |
this is very good news for the Government. All right. At what | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
point is she saying that these things need to be changed and there | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
may need to be a look at the policy mixture? When does that happen, | :09:37. | :09:41. | |
bearing in mind that we have had flat growth for two years? When do | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
we get to that point? How much longer is this Government going to | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
tolerate no growth? The Government is not tolerating no growth. That | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
is why it is already acting on credit easing and getting people | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
into work through the biggest work programme that this country has | :09:57. | :10:02. | |
ever seen. Over half a million people in six months have been | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
engaged in that scheme. The answer directly to your question of when, | :10:05. | :10:11. | |
she says it herself. The IMF say it themselves. Only after substantial | :10:11. | :10:16. | |
further action has been taken on monetary policy, on credit easing, | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
and from switching from current and into capital expenditure. But she | :10:20. | :10:28. | |
said that if the recovery fails to take off, then the Government | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
should focus on quantitative easing and one of the measures we should | :10:31. | :10:37. | |
look at would be a temporary VAT cut. Are they right? They are not. | :10:37. | :10:44. | |
Labour was calling for the VAT cut. You are totally misrepresenting the | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
IMF. That is the quote. In answer to the question whether this should | :10:48. | :10:53. | |
be done now, they say no. They say the current plan is the correct | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
plan and it is on track. Separately we have borrowing figures showing | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
deficits down by a quarter. The fiscal plan is on track, it is | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
appropriate, it is essential. They said that in the future if things | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
change, after several different other measures have been tried, we | :11:10. | :11:16. | |
should look at other things. Let's get the deficit down and get growth | :11:16. | :11:18. | |
growing through the infrastructure investment that we are doing, | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
getting people out of unemployment. Is that how you read Christine | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
Lagarde, that she was not criticising the Government so far | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
and they are on track? I heard to say that growth is too low and | :11:29. | :11:33. | |
there is not any at the moment and unemployment is too high. In that | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
clip, she said there was a danger of youth unemployment, which is 20% | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
higher than it has been since we started collecting records. There | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
was a real danger of that becoming entrenched. What I have heard from | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
Matthew is complacency, no change. They are going to carry on with the | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
policies that have slowed growth, lead to unemployment rising, no | :11:53. | :11:59. | |
change. What we have heard from the IMF... What we have heard... | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
did not hear no change. She said that significant further steps are | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
required to boost growth. That is the message. Military steps, which | :12:07. | :12:12. | |
is what Matthew Hancock is saying. You do not have a one gear policy, | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
you have policies across it. But a key thing must be support for new | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
jobs, that is crucial. Labour is saying there should be a tax on | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
bank are bonuses to create thousands more jobs for young | :12:23. | :12:29. | |
people to counter the record levels of unemployment. And we should be | :12:29. | :12:31. | |
accelerating infrastructure spending. That is what Labour is | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
saying. She said no big fiscal stimulus, which is what Labour have | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
been calling for, in effect. She said policies should be fiscally | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
neutral, which is what the Government is trying to do, it says. | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
The air will need to be more money going into the economy to create | :12:47. | :12:53. | |
and sustain new jobs. -- there will need to be. That is crucial. If | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
there is a vat cut, there needs a further injection. We need a plan B. | :12:57. | :13:02. | |
What she was calling for, in diplomatic, coded language, is | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
precisely what Ed Miliband has been calling for. She says she does not | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
want to trample on political sensitivities here. But reading | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
between the lines, she says the policies have worked so far and | :13:13. | :13:16. | |
have made the Government credible in terms of dealing with the market | :13:16. | :13:21. | |
and the price it is paying for its debt, but in terms of going on from | :13:21. | :13:27. | |
here, it is not creating growth and jobs. She says that because of the | :13:27. | :13:32. | |
difficult issues of higher commodity prices and the eurozone, | :13:32. | :13:37. | |
we need to look at more monetary activism, and when asked do we need | :13:37. | :13:46. | |
to borrow more now to get things down, she says no. Andrew, I think | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
you are one of those great Labour politicians who normally tell it | :13:49. | :13:54. | |
straight. It is slightly beneath you to mangle the words. Yes, she | :13:55. | :14:00. | |
says let's do everything we can to get growth going. And yes... | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
you doing everything you can to get growth going? Should we do more to | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
deal with youth unemployment? Absolutely. Hold on. That is why | :14:09. | :14:14. | |
the work programme... Why do they not have taxes on the bankers' | :14:14. | :14:20. | |
bonuses? Oh, come on. Your friend Alistair Darling said it would not | :14:20. | :14:25. | |
work. We did attacks and it did work and we could be doing it now. | :14:25. | :14:28. | |
Alistair Darling has said it will not work again. Alistair Darling | :14:28. | :14:33. | |
has said that the bankers' bonus tax would not work again. Ed | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
Miliband and Ed Balls have promised to spend it 10 times. The big | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
picture question is do we give up on the benefits that the Government | :14:40. | :14:46. | |
has got, that Christine Lagarde spelled out? Hold on. She is not | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
asking for us to give up on the fiscal consolidation. That is | :14:50. | :14:55. | |
precisely... Matthew is on Treasury autopilot. He has been sent here to | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
defend us. Any member of the public understands that plan A is not | :14:59. | :15:03. | |
working and unemployment has gone up since the election. There is no | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
growth and there was substantial growth at the time of the last | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
election. The head of the IMF is now saying there is a real danger | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
of youth unemployment been entrenched, and this is the most | :15:12. | :15:18. | |
alarming thing. Let the real about what this means for the country. -- | :15:18. | :15:23. | |
let's be real. There could be a whole generation of people not | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
knowing what working is and that could be so damaging for the | :15:26. | :15:32. | |
country. A banker's bonus tax would be so imperative. If you are saying | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
that more has to be done in a monetary form, it sounds as if the | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
Government is saying that we cannot do anything and it is up to the | :15:39. | :15:42. | |
Bank of England to do things like cutting interest rates, and | :15:42. | :15:51. | |
quantitative easing and there is No after youth unemployment rose | :15:51. | :15:56. | |
during the boom times, the work programme and the work experience | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
programme which we have brought in are the biggest programme to get | :16:00. | :16:06. | |
people into work. I was in sufficient folk on Thursday with | :16:06. | :16:11. | |
Chris greyling, meeting people who have been given work experience | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
placements and by the end of the time they're taken on. So that is | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
the action the government should be taken. As Christine Lagarde said, | :16:20. | :16:26. | |
is now the right time to try borrow your way out of debt? No, it is not. | :16:26. | :16:32. | |
Thank you. Now can't we all just get a I long that? That may seem a | :16:32. | :16:38. | |
stretch, but some policies being pursued by the Government were | :16:38. | :16:45. | |
dreamed up by New Labour. Adam has been investigating. Politics is a | :16:45. | :16:50. | |
bit of a pick and mix business and you sometimes get a new government | :16:50. | :16:57. | |
that seems strangely familiar. big divide in politics has been | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
about the economy and the pace of deficit reductions, but there is | :17:01. | :17:06. | |
continue is the on education, welfare reform, overseas aid, where | :17:06. | :17:11. | |
the Government has kept track with what Labour have done. But Labour | :17:11. | :17:15. | |
haven't been keen on the reforms in opposition. Take benefits, they | :17:15. | :17:21. | |
pioneer rad tougher approach, but have opposed much of the | :17:21. | :17:26. | |
coalition's crackdown. And there are accused Mees, Labour invented | :17:26. | :17:33. | |
the idea, copy right Lord Adonis and the coalition increased them | :17:33. | :17:38. | |
nine fold. But Labour were not happy. Why the change of heart? | :17:38. | :17:40. | |
There was a sense of trepidation in the Labour Party that this was | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
selling out the public sector. I don't think that was true, but | :17:44. | :17:48. | |
there was a certain errors in describing the policies which | :17:48. | :17:52. | |
allowed people to think that. The Labour Party was never comfort | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
kpwrabl with a lot of its -- comfortable with a lot of its | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
reforms. John Hutton has been in the position of being a Labour peer | :18:00. | :18:06. | |
who has worked for enemy, reviewing public sector pensions and earning | :18:06. | :18:14. | |
the label of collaborator from some. It is important to be, when your in | :18:14. | :18:18. | |
government and you go into opposition to have continuity. We | :18:18. | :18:23. | |
started this process and I don't think it serves our cause well if | :18:23. | :18:29. | |
we then say, well we didn't really do that, but actually we did. | :18:29. | :18:34. | |
this is going to be a feature as long as politics exists. When there | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
is a new face as Prime Minister, they get some things they like the | :18:38. | :18:46. | |
look of and opposition leaders are supposed to oppose. Well Lord | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
Adonis is still with me. Do you think Labour is opposing just for | :18:50. | :18:55. | |
the sake of opposing on key areas like welfare, health and education? | :18:55. | :19:00. | |
I think Labour's doing the right thing, that is judging policies on | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
their merits. You sympathise with Ed Miliband saying free schools are | :19:04. | :19:09. | |
a bad thing. What we have said is we will look at free schools case | :19:09. | :19:16. | |
by case. I invented aed -- academies. They were new schools in | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
areas where there were not schools. Are you frustrated by Ed Miliband | :19:20. | :19:26. | |
not embracing that? The policy was to bring good schools in areas | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
where standards were low. Where new schools are being set up with that | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
as the mission, I support them. Of course, the numbers given about the | :19:34. | :19:40. | |
expansion of academies, it is not replacement schools for | :19:40. | :19:46. | |
underperforming corps hen sifrs, most are existing schools. -- | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
comprehensives. And they are changing the label. No change in | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
their governance, simply to pocket �25,000 that the Government gives | :19:54. | :20:00. | |
for changes -- changing. You said in an article the Labour Party will | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
get back into government by having a better plan for the future, not | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
by opposing changes that are working well. We don't changes that | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
are work. Why did you say that then? We don't oppose changes that | :20:11. | :20:17. | |
are working well, we support them where change has been made for | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
change's sake. That is something that not going to be supported in | :20:20. | :20:26. | |
the same way. On the question of free schools, free schools should | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
be concentrated in areas where educational standards are low and | :20:29. | :20:35. | |
where children are being failed. Not simply a quest for establishing | :20:35. | :20:41. | |
more schools. But this is, it sounds like an argument, you | :20:41. | :20:47. | |
support the thrust of the reform from the Government on thing like | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
education, but the Labour Party now and you know Shadow Cabinet don't | :20:51. | :20:56. | |
embrace it in the same way. Are you saying they should and they haven't | :20:56. | :21:02. | |
been forthcoming enough? One Labour MP said Lord Adonis's argument is | :21:02. | :21:09. | |
selective and in parts wrong. people, including some people in my | :21:09. | :21:14. | |
party, didn't like the public reforms, and if thought school | :21:14. | :21:20. | |
should continue to be run by local authorities. That debate is now | :21:20. | :21:25. | |
largely over in the Labour Party. Tony Blair's mantra, what matter is | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
what works, people accept that. Particularly in tackling | :21:29. | :21:35. | |
disadvantage. Reforms which are geared at narrowing inqualities and | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
tackling disadvantage, we support. But that is different from reforms | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
which are intended to break up public services. Like? Which | :21:43. | :21:49. | |
reforms are you against? One is the health reforms. The marketisation | :21:49. | :21:54. | |
of the health service, which the coalition was proposing. It was | :21:54. | :21:59. | |
muted by the House of Lords. support GP commissioning? We do. It | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
is what the role of competition and this is the thing for the Liberal | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
Democrats which has been difficult. Where you have an NHS that is | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
working well and delivering for patients, where we put in place | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
reforms to see that operations are delivered in a shorter time and | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
hospital waiting lists are dealt with and patients have choice. | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
Where those systems in place, we support them. Competition for | :22:21. | :22:26. | |
competition's sake and t let's be clear what they want to do, they | :22:26. | :22:36. | |
:22:36. | :22:37. | ||
want to dismantle public service. One problem was the party could | :22:37. | :22:42. | |
never embrace public sector reform. We have embraced reform. That | :22:42. | :22:47. | |
doesn't mean to say we embrace the dismantling of the public services. | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
That is the dividing line between Labour and the Conservatives. Many | :22:51. | :22:57. | |
Conservatives would rather not have the NHS and would rather have | :22:57. | :23:03. | |
private medicine. We see it as the best insurance policy in the world | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
in respect of health. Now, today, the energy Secretary has published | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
a draft bill to reform the electricity market. It is designed | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
to solve a problem of how to generate enough power to keep the | :23:16. | :23:26. | |
:23:26. | :23:29. | ||
lights on and enable the Government to hit its climate change targets. | :23:29. | :23:36. | |
It will introduce an emissions performance standard. The plans are | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
intended to secure investment in clean energy to avert a gap in | :23:40. | :23:45. | |
supplies. As some power stations come to the end of their lives. But | :23:45. | :23:51. | |
will it lead to higher energy bills? Roger haar ban joins us. | :23:52. | :23:59. | |
Will it lead to higher bills? inevitable. It will lead to higher | :23:59. | :24:04. | |
bills. But the Government says any way, because of fructations in | :24:04. | :24:11. | |
fossil fuel prices -- fluctuations -- consumer would have to pay | :24:11. | :24:17. | |
higher bills and the Government says within a time of 20 years that | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
consumers will be better off from the changes being made today. I | :24:20. | :24:25. | |
have to say that is contested and some people think we would be | :24:25. | :24:28. | |
cheaper off going down a fossil fuel route. But this is the | :24:28. | :24:33. | |
Government's position. It believes it will be proved right. How is the | :24:33. | :24:38. | |
Government to encourage investment in compleen energy? It has a | :24:38. | :24:44. | |
problem? -- clean energy. It wants new nuclear power stations, but it | :24:44. | :24:50. | |
is struggling to to co-that -- to do that. It has to get companies to | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
put in billions up front before they make any cash back. So what it | :24:54. | :25:04. | |
is trying to do is offer long-term contracts for different causes | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
where ibin vestors get their money back as soon as they start planning. | :25:08. | :25:16. | |
That funding will come from our own bills. That is in the form of a lvy. | :25:16. | :25:23. | |
And they hope to attract investment. But eSen with those inducements is | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
not certain they will get new nuclear power stations. They could | :25:26. | :25:33. | |
end up with only one or two. joined by the energy minister | :25:33. | :25:38. | |
Charles Hendry and Jenny Jones. Can you guarantee that we will get a | :25:38. | :25:45. | |
new generation of nuclear plants? No, but we can create the right | :25:45. | :25:51. | |
environment for companies to invest. We're trying to deliver energy | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
security. How can you guarantee if, there are no state subsidies, | :25:55. | :26:00. | |
although you're guaranteeing contracts for ndge supplies, so | :26:01. | :26:06. | |
that is a subsidy, do you accept that? No there is a higher cost for | :26:06. | :26:12. | |
low carbon technologies, the cheapest one gas. We want a | :26:12. | :26:16. | |
balanced portfolio and if we want these to come through, we have to | :26:16. | :26:23. | |
have a structure that encourages people to invest and make up for a | :26:23. | :26:27. | |
catastrophic shortage of investment in energy. To get that investment, | :26:27. | :26:33. | |
you have laid down inducements to energy suppliers and we will pay | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
for that? The consumer will have to pay for berilding the | :26:37. | :26:42. | |
infrastructure. How much will that add to an average bill What we have | :26:42. | :26:47. | |
looked at it is what will happen with business if we went down the | :26:47. | :26:52. | |
route of fossil fuel. It would be cheaper. Well it wouldn't, gas is | :26:52. | :26:57. | |
at a high price and coal will become more expensive. We believe | :26:57. | :27:02. | |
the way that we're doing it will be a cheaper way of doing it. Are you | :27:02. | :27:07. | |
convinced? No, it is difficult to know what this bill is going for. | :27:07. | :27:12. | |
Because it will not reduce prices for the consumer and it also won't | :27:13. | :27:17. | |
I think produce the energy that we want. It won't reduce price for the | :27:17. | :27:21. | |
consumer, but will it be cheaper, can you say it would be cheaper | :27:21. | :27:27. | |
than if we stayed with the status quo. Of course not. If they only | :27:27. | :27:31. | |
started insulating people's houses that would reduce each household's | :27:31. | :27:39. | |
bill by �180. Then if you started investing in renewables, Germany | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
has 21% market share in renewable energy and their prices have gone | :27:42. | :27:48. | |
down. That is the way to bring prices down. You reduce the need | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
for electricity by insulation and reduce prices by going for | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
renewables, which have fewer long- term problems. So why aren't you | :27:55. | :28:01. | |
doing that? That is what we did last year. The take up... It hasn't | :28:01. | :28:10. | |
come in yet. But in terms, some incuesment -- inducements have come | :28:10. | :28:16. | |
and people haven't taken them up. That is why we have gone for a new | :28:16. | :28:21. | |
approach, so we can systemically improve the efficiency of houses. | :28:21. | :28:26. | |
But the approach will deliver energy security at low cost and | :28:26. | :28:30. | |
fundamentally move us in the low carbon dre,. Yes, it will be | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
nuclear and be more renewables. have said yourself that you don't | :28:34. | :28:38. | |
know whether we're going to get a new generation of nuclear plants | :28:38. | :28:46. | |
and you're going to set up an system, who have shown an interest. | :28:46. | :28:51. | |
EDF and Centrica. They haven't confirmed that. Well pev e they | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
have spent billion of pounds so far. And everyone who looks at the | :28:55. | :28:59. | |
country recognises in five years we have gone from a count which are ry | :28:59. | :29:04. | |
where nuclear was not on the agenda so, one of the most exciting places | :29:04. | :29:09. | |
to invest in nuclear. But also in renewables, we want to see a broad | :29:09. | :29:14. | |
portfolio. What are you doing about getting that diversification? | :29:14. | :29:19. | |
is what this bill does. It is providing an incentive for people | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
to invest in low carbon technologies and bring down the | :29:23. | :29:28. | |
cost of some of the renewables. you dismissing this bill before you | :29:28. | :29:34. | |
have seen it? No, my impression it is unstable baby steps to what | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
we're aiming for, which is a low carbon future that does haven't the | :29:37. | :29:42. | |
burden of nuclear problems later. Cleaning up the nuclear problem | :29:42. | :29:47. | |
will be a problem for the future. We can't afford that money. And my | :29:47. | :29:53. | |
understanding is... It is cheaper. It isn't when you have to pay for | :29:53. | :30:02. | |
it through taxpayers' and consumers' bills. The long-term | :30:02. | :30:07. | |
bill of nuclear is way beyond this. Labour would have had to backed | :30:07. | :30:13. | |
some investment to build a new generation of nuclear plants? | :30:13. | :30:18. | |
need new investment and we need furbt si. And we will see | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
developments of nuclear power stations. The problem for the | :30:22. | :30:28. | |
government is it doesn't seem to that is affordable. Two companies | :30:28. | :30:34. | |
have pulled out and what we want to look at, because we're not signing | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
blank cheques, when statements are made, that this isn't a subsidy, | :30:38. | :30:45. | |
but we're signing long-term contracts ta at -- at guaranteed | :30:45. | :30:49. | |
prices. And illegal. The higher cost of low carbon electricity. If | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
we want to sea that, we have to get twice as much investment, each year | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
of the decade, as Lord Adonis achieved in his decade in power, | :30:57. | :31:02. | |
that we saw a catastrophic falling of investment in infrastructure and | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
we have much of the coal plants closing and we're playing catch up | :31:06. | :31:11. | |
for that appalling failure and we're determined to do it in a low | :31:11. | :31:21. | |
:31:21. | :31:21. | ||
Renewable energy cannot fill that gap in the way that the Green Party | :31:21. | :31:25. | |
envisages. In Germany they are doing very well, closing down the | :31:25. | :31:30. | |
power stations and using renewables more. It can be done. If you reduce | :31:30. | :31:35. | |
the need, then you also resist this desperate drive to use other forms | :31:35. | :31:40. | |
of fuel. It can be done. This Government is just not taking up | :31:40. | :31:45. | |
the giant strides that they need to take in imagination. The Germans | :31:45. | :31:52. | |
have just cut their solar fund. That was 50% of their energy, | :31:52. | :31:55. | |
providing 3% of electricity. The German decision on nuclear is | :31:55. | :32:00. | |
burning more coal and gas. We are looking at a balanced approach | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
which is actually a very sensible for our energy security, and | :32:03. | :32:07. | |
looking to see how we can secure that investment at the lowest cost. | :32:07. | :32:11. | |
It does require a major change to the market, this is the most | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
significant change. And there has also been controversy about the | :32:15. | :32:19. | |
subsidies given to people having onshore wind technology and wind | :32:19. | :32:24. | |
farms. Very expensive, with very low capacity, people say. We have | :32:24. | :32:28. | |
to invest for the future and when you are investing in nuclear, who | :32:28. | :32:32. | |
are committing to more problems and expense in the future. With | :32:32. | :32:35. | |
renewables, it is an upfront cost but it becomes cheaper and cheaper | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
later. Quite honestly, why would we not want to reduce people's need | :32:39. | :32:44. | |
and at the same time make their bills lower? To me it is dinosaur | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
economics that we are using to justify nuclear. I think it makes | :32:48. | :32:53. | |
the case for why we need a balanced situation. Only if it is achievable. | :32:53. | :32:57. | |
Are you going to reach the low carbon targets? Are you going to | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
have a new generation of nuclear power stations? There is a big risk | :33:01. | :33:06. | |
of the likes really going off. purpose of this is encouraging | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
people to invest in the energy sector in the UK, which they have | :33:10. | :33:15. | |
not been doing at these levels. When will you get this investment, | :33:15. | :33:19. | |
contracts signed and sealed? We are working with people now to give | :33:19. | :33:23. | |
people a price for that investment for next year. There is a process | :33:23. | :33:27. | |
of negotiation. Companies like EDF Energy need that decision this year. | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
My understanding is that they have withdrawn from the plant at | :33:31. | :33:37. | |
Hinckley, for example, at a time when credit ratings agencies are | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
backing away from nuclear. So why are you going forward and offering | :33:41. | :33:46. | |
billions? I have to stop you there. Thank you. | :33:46. | :33:50. | |
Theresa May have been talking about a radical overhaul of schemes to | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
tackle anti-social behaviour. She wants to replace ASBOs with | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
alternative ways of doing with troublemakers. These include | :33:57. | :34:04. | |
forcing the police to take action in five households complain. | :34:04. | :34:09. | |
Earlier today I launched a white paper. This new approach them | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
powers local communities, placing victims' needs at its heart and | :34:13. | :34:17. | |
putting more trust in professionals than ever before. It's perfectly | :34:17. | :34:22. | |
complements our approach to wider local policing. A lot of what is | :34:22. | :34:25. | |
called anti-social behaviour is actually crime and it should be | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
taken seriously and it should be dealt with. 3 million incidents of | :34:29. | :34:32. | |
anti-social behaviour are still being reported to the police each | :34:32. | :34:36. | |
and every year, with many more doubtless going unreported. Theresa | :34:36. | :34:42. | |
May. Let's join Cezanne on College Green to find a more. | :34:42. | :34:49. | |
There was a time when Tony Blair was talking about hugging a hoodie. | :34:49. | :34:53. | |
Theresa May wants to change the ASBO system, and is talking about a | :34:53. | :34:57. | |
community trigger. If five people in a community complain about one | :34:58. | :35:01. | |
individual, or if one person complains three times about the | :35:01. | :35:06. | |
same individual, and police are obliged to investigate. I am joined | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
by an MP from the Home Affairs select committee. People might | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
think that the police are overstretched. Should we be giving | :35:13. | :35:17. | |
them more work to do at the time when budgets are cut? This is a | :35:17. | :35:23. | |
question about how to deploy your police. A lot of members of the | :35:23. | :35:27. | |
public feel that when they complain to the authority, when they raised | :35:27. | :35:32. | |
an issue, they hit a brick wall and nothing is done about it. We had | :35:32. | :35:37. | |
the tragic case of Fiona Ann Pilkington. This is designed so | :35:37. | :35:41. | |
that when somebody repeatedly complains, and somebody in a | :35:41. | :35:45. | |
community is repeatedly complaining about the same thing, then police | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
actually investigate and deal with the issue. But how to regulate it? | :35:49. | :35:53. | |
The Centre for crime and justice has talked about it from the point | :35:53. | :35:58. | |
of view of bullies and snoops. How do we know that somebody is a | :35:58. | :36:03. | |
genuine victim of crime? We leave that to the good sense of the | :36:03. | :36:07. | |
neighbourhood officer on the spot. Also to the police and crime | :36:07. | :36:12. | |
commissioners, who we will be acting in November. I leave it to | :36:12. | :36:20. | |
them rather than the Home Office. One person in overall charge, | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
overseeing the police, will be elected by the public. And secondly | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
there will be a mechanism whereby if people are not having their | :36:27. | :36:31. | |
concerns dealt with, that police will listen and investigate those | :36:31. | :36:36. | |
concerns. The Police Federation have told me that they think it is | :36:36. | :36:40. | |
a metaphor for handcuffs for police officers. They will be forced to | :36:40. | :36:43. | |
investigate situations that may be could be dealt with without police | :36:43. | :36:48. | |
involvement. Arguments over the garden fence, for example. Let me | :36:48. | :36:53. | |
give you an example. In my area in Kent, there was a problem of street | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
prostitution for centuries, really. The police did not do much about it. | :36:57. | :37:01. | |
They made the odd arrest but they accepted it was there, putting it | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
in there too difficult box. Then a council ran for office saying that | :37:05. | :37:12. | |
he was going to deal with this problem and he got the police and | :37:12. | :37:14. | |
the Council working together and he has eradicated this problem in | :37:14. | :37:19. | |
Chatham. That is what we want, proper oversight and responsiveness | :37:19. | :37:26. | |
from our police service. Thank you. The ASBOs are going to be replaced | :37:26. | :37:33. | |
by something called the Community criminal behaviour order. It will | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
be a slightly known for something slightly different. Whether it | :37:37. | :37:44. | |
makes any difference remains to be seen. Are you sad to see as buyers | :37:44. | :37:51. | |
going? -- ASBOs going? It is clearly a complete dog's breakfast. | :37:51. | :37:54. | |
They have committed to replacing ASBOs and they are fishing around | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
for something as close to an ASBO as they can get with a different | :37:57. | :38:02. | |
name. I think the public will be very depressed about this. When | :38:02. | :38:05. | |
there is anti-social behaviour, they expected to be dealt with. | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
din never really was dealt with. The councils did not follow up on | :38:08. | :38:18. | |
it. That is precisely why the ASBO is popular. ASBOs give a real | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
redress for tenants whose lives are made a misery. Renaming them with | :38:22. | :38:28. | |
the huge bureaucratic waste that will go on, and Dennis arbitrary | :38:28. | :38:34. | |
cut-off, -- then it is arbitrary cut off. Will it be five, four, | :38:34. | :38:38. | |
three? We want to see properly responsive police locally but there | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
are fewer police and the Government reforms as well. You will be very | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
pleased to know that our quiz is about ASBOs, son to like them so | :38:46. | :38:52. | |
much. Which of the following cases did not result in an ASBO? A | :38:52. | :38:55. | |
grandmother listing to Frank Sinatra too loudly. A shepherd not | :38:55. | :38:59. | |
controlling his sheep in Gloucestershire. The soup than | :38:59. | :39:05. | |
company serving food to 100 homeless people in Manchester. -- | :39:05. | :39:10. | |
pursued fund company. And familiar flying his helicopter to close to | :39:10. | :39:13. | |
his neighbours. We will get the correct answer at the end of the | :39:13. | :39:16. | |
programme. The long awaited report into | :39:16. | :39:19. | |
employment law was published yesterday. The Government had not | :39:19. | :39:23. | |
wanted to publish it yet, but it was forced to after the Telegraph | :39:23. | :39:27. | |
leaked an early draft. It in the craft had been asked to do the | :39:27. | :39:32. | |
report and it is full of controversial ideas. -- Adrian | :39:32. | :39:38. | |
Beecroft. One of the most controversial proposals is no fault | :39:38. | :39:43. | |
dismissal and also the delay of compulsory pensions. Vince Cable is | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
away from Parliament, but that has not stopped his opposite number | :39:46. | :39:51. | |
from demanding questions to be answered in the Commons. | :39:51. | :39:57. | |
What a complete and utter shambles! Can the Minister confirm that his | :39:57. | :40:01. | |
department was complacent and fully co-operated in a production of this | :40:01. | :40:06. | |
report despite the Secretary of State's misgivings? We believe that | :40:06. | :40:10. | |
improvements can be made to the way that employment tribunals operate | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
for the sake of employers and employees, but we do not think that | :40:14. | :40:19. | |
watering down the fundamental rights of workers can be | :40:19. | :40:22. | |
substituted for a proper growth strategy. A lot of cliches but not | :40:22. | :40:31. | |
much substance, I'm afraid. He asks whether I am complicit. If he had | :40:31. | :40:36. | |
listened to my opening statement, he would have heard that this | :40:36. | :40:41. | |
department commissioned the report, and so we were complicit. What | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
would be the increase in output if all these measures recommended by B | :40:45. | :40:52. | |
Croft were adopted? -- Adrian Beecroft. I cannot say that, which | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
is why we are calling for evidence. My honourable friend is right to | :40:57. | :41:01. | |
question this issue and was not present during any of the comments | :41:01. | :41:05. | |
from the gentleman opposite. agree on the need for balance. | :41:05. | :41:14. | |
Would he agree with me that we would be creating an environment of | :41:14. | :41:20. | |
fear if we bring in a fire at will, which would not bring in growth and | :41:20. | :41:24. | |
would just be bonkers? We have to get the balance right so that | :41:24. | :41:26. | |
businesses are competitive and we do not tie them up with the red | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
tape we suffered in the last Government, and we make sure that | :41:29. | :41:34. | |
we do not strip away those basic rights, as she rightly says. As a | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
former shop steward and proud trade unionist, I welcome many of these | :41:38. | :41:44. | |
proposals. Would the Minister agree with me that we need to change so | :41:44. | :41:49. | |
much of our rules and regulations so that instead of having a card to | :41:50. | :41:57. | |
culture, we have a can-do culture? I only wish that were the case on | :41:57. | :42:01. | |
the benches opposite. Adrian Beecroft is an asset-stripping | :42:01. | :42:04. | |
venture capitalist. Surely putting him in charge of a report that | :42:05. | :42:11. | |
decides whether or not it is easier to sack workers, isn't that like | :42:11. | :42:16. | |
putting Hannibal Lecter in charge of deciding the nutritional | :42:16. | :42:24. | |
benefits of cannibalism? That is a good joke. I think he needs to be | :42:24. | :42:27. | |
very careful about talking about asset-stripping vultures and all of | :42:27. | :42:31. | |
that. If we want people to develop and create jobs and invest in this | :42:31. | :42:37. | |
country, we need to watch our language very carefully. | :42:37. | :42:41. | |
We are joined now by the Conservative MP John Redwood, who | :42:41. | :42:46. | |
you saw in that debate, and Lord Razzall, the Lib Dem peer. Do you | :42:46. | :42:49. | |
back most of Adrian Beecroft's proposals, including making it | :42:49. | :42:53. | |
easier for business to sack people? I back most of what he is saying | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
but I do not welcome the idea of fire at will, and no sensible | :42:57. | :43:01. | |
person would want that. We want these and protection for people in | :43:01. | :43:06. | |
the work force. What we are talking about is very small businesses. The | :43:06. | :43:10. | |
entrepreneur thinking about taking on his first employee, as someone | :43:10. | :43:13. | |
with two of three employees. If they choose wrongly and they take | :43:13. | :43:16. | |
someone that is not co-operating and is letting the side down and | :43:16. | :43:19. | |
they have warned them, they want to feel that there is some way of | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
getting rid of a badly performing employee without a huge bill and | :43:23. | :43:27. | |
lots of law is involved. I hope we can find a compromise to deal with | :43:27. | :43:31. | |
that point. That sounds like you agree with no fault dismissal. | :43:31. | :43:36. | |
is not no fault dismissal, there has to be some kind of fault. The | :43:36. | :43:39. | |
fear that the entrepreneur has is that they are going to take someone | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
on in good faith, they don't turn up, they mess around, and they do | :43:43. | :43:49. | |
not perform to a normal stand-up. - - normal standard. It is very | :43:49. | :43:54. | |
difficult to manage those people out. Do you agree? We have to look | :43:54. | :43:57. | |
at the changes that have just taken place with the unfair dismissal | :43:57. | :44:03. | |
rules. Up until last week, if somebody was there for more than a | :44:03. | :44:07. | |
year, they could claim for unfair dismissal. That has now changed to | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
two years. I fail to understand why it is a disincentive to take | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
somebody on, if you think you cannot get rid of them when they | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
are no good, considering you have two years to make that decision | :44:18. | :44:22. | |
before they have a claim against you. That was one of the reasons | :44:22. | :44:28. | |
why my party supported the extension to two years. If the | :44:28. | :44:32. | |
employer has not made up his mind about them after two years, he | :44:32. | :44:40. | |
should not have no fault dismissal. The idea put forward by Adrian | :44:40. | :44:44. | |
Beecroft is bonkers, then? Yes. agree with the Business Secretary? | :44:44. | :44:53. | |
I would not use the word bonkers. It was the son! I think what we | :44:53. | :44:58. | |
need is a proper consultation. it was the Sun newspaper! There is | :44:58. | :45:02. | |
a problem at that needs to be tackled, but none of us want fire | :45:02. | :45:07. | |
at will, that is not reasonable. And that would create a climate of | :45:07. | :45:10. | |
fear, yes. Let's look at making it easier for businesses to hire | :45:11. | :45:20. | |
:45:21. | :45:21. | ||
people. What did you like in the Anything that makes it a fairer ae | :45:21. | :45:27. | |
easier process for both sides, it has gt too expensive and gives | :45:27. | :45:32. | |
lawyers too many fees. The proposals to reduce the cost and | :45:32. | :45:36. | |
make it easier for both sides are welcome. What about the Liberal | :45:36. | :45:43. | |
Democrats, Vince Cable did call it bonkers, will it end up in the | :45:43. | :45:49. | |
scrap heap? No fault dismissal will. But the others are being | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
implemented. The laibds -- Liberal Democrats are happy about that. | :45:52. | :45:56. | |
the other one there is a consultation and I'm sure Vince | :45:56. | :46:02. | |
Cable and the minister will take into account both sides. What about | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
family friendly policies, it has been reported that No 10 doctored | :46:05. | :46:10. | |
the bits that said there should be a delay to family friendly policies, | :46:10. | :46:17. | |
was that the rigt thing for No 10 to do? I think that is disputed. | :46:17. | :46:21. | |
The man changed his report from first draft to final draft. That is | :46:21. | :46:28. | |
normal. He decided that the -- that some of the thing were going too | :46:28. | :46:34. | |
far. Do you not agree that the original that said it would be too | :46:34. | :46:37. | |
expensive to deal with those changes at this time? All these | :46:38. | :46:41. | |
things are a balance, as the minister said. We want a fair | :46:41. | :46:46. | |
balance, we felt that the previous settlement was sending too many | :46:46. | :46:50. | |
negatives to employers. We want to do something about that. We don't | :46:50. | :46:56. | |
want to live in a Victorian world where the mill owner grinds the | :46:56. | :47:04. | |
faces of the emply ployees. argument was it was a cost to the | :47:04. | :47:10. | |
employer. I don't agree with the postponement. The family friendly | :47:10. | :47:17. | |
policies are not that expensive. you have any costs if they had to | :47:17. | :47:20. | |
introduce flexible work and removing regulations around the | :47:20. | :47:30. | |
employment of young people? Well no. There noise direct costing, but it | :47:30. | :47:33. | |
is not that expensive. This I why I asked for numbers yesterday. I | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
can't answer the questions until I see the numbers. If you make it too | :47:37. | :47:41. | |
expensive you will have fewer people in jobs. If you don't allow | :47:41. | :47:46. | |
enough for the employees, you have a miserable position at work. | :47:46. | :47:52. | |
is the problem. We have a report in advance of the evidence. John asked | :47:52. | :47:56. | |
yesterday what was the evidence. To my astonishment, the response of | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
the minister was we are going to call for evidence, after the report. | :47:59. | :48:05. | |
I may be a bit old fashioned, when I was in government we assembled | :48:05. | :48:10. | |
the evidence first. That is because it was leaked. Yes but it we have | :48:10. | :48:14. | |
been waiting for the proposals. intention was to have the | :48:14. | :48:19. | |
consultation before the report. These were firm conclusions that | :48:19. | :48:24. | |
Adrian Beecroft made, but there haven't -- hadn't been evidence. | :48:24. | :48:28. | |
They were conclusions of Adrian Beecroft, not Government's. What I | :48:28. | :48:33. | |
was saying is they need evidence before they make decisions. | :48:33. | :48:38. | |
Wouldn't it have been a good idea if their own advisor had assembled | :48:38. | :48:42. | |
the evidence. The fact that there is no evidence tells you a lot. | :48:42. | :48:48. | |
this is a way of spuring on growth, how do you do that, if we don't | :48:48. | :48:53. | |
have any evidence? I think we agree on that. We need the costs, because | :48:53. | :48:57. | |
some of the coasts imposed by European legislation have been | :48:57. | :49:02. | |
expensive and may not give the best benefits. There are limits to what | :49:02. | :49:09. | |
we can do about that. We can look at our domestic one and draw up a | :49:09. | :49:14. | |
budget to make sense. That should have happened before the report | :49:14. | :49:20. | |
came forward. The fact it has not shows... It look like a shambles, | :49:20. | :49:24. | |
if you have to ask questions, it hasn't been presented well. | :49:24. | :49:27. | |
we're half way through and we can judge it when the ministers have | :49:27. | :49:31. | |
the evidence and come to their conclusions. They want will Ed, I | :49:31. | :49:37. | |
urge them to have evidence, then we can have the debate on an informed | :49:37. | :49:42. | |
basis that we can't have tide today. Thank you to both of you. Has too | :49:42. | :49:49. | |
much of life been taken over by the ideas of the market in his new book, | :49:49. | :49:53. | |
professor Michael Sandel says that we have gone from having a market | :49:53. | :49:58. | |
economy to being a market society. And he does not think that has been | :49:58. | :50:05. | |
a positive trend. From the 1980s and the election of Margaret | :50:05. | :50:11. | |
Thatcher and Ronald Reagan, Britain and the United States saw a period | :50:11. | :50:19. | |
of market triumphalism. More and more area of life are subject to | :50:19. | :50:23. | |
markets. In health and education, as well as airport and theme parks, | :50:23. | :50:29. | |
paying extra can help you jump the queue. Sport has become | :50:29. | :50:35. | |
commercialised and there is even a market in old Oscar statue. This | :50:35. | :50:40. | |
comes at a cost, according to processor Sandel, markets can crowd | :50:40. | :50:45. | |
out morals and undermine more noble reasons for action he thinks we | :50:45. | :50:49. | |
would be better off if there were more things that money can't buy. | :50:49. | :50:54. | |
Michael Sandel joins us now. You could say looking at the examples | :50:54. | :50:58. | |
you have put forward, that actually this is the natural progression of | :50:58. | :51:02. | |
things and people are motivated by money and money will enter into | :51:03. | :51:08. | |
more streams of life. But it's happened with an intensity that | :51:08. | :51:14. | |
didn't exist before. What about the case just recently, should people | :51:14. | :51:20. | |
sell their Olympic torchs for private gain? What about some of | :51:20. | :51:26. | |
other examples that you have used. You talk about queue jumping for | :51:26. | :51:31. | |
public services. That may have been accelerated, but it has happened | :51:31. | :51:36. | |
before. Who has created that market? I think all of us have by | :51:36. | :51:40. | |
not having a public debate about where markets serve the public good | :51:40. | :51:48. | |
and where they don't belong, we have allowed a kind of market faith. | :51:48. | :51:51. | |
So I'm not arguing for, I'm not giving the answers to any | :51:51. | :51:57. | |
particular case, but I do think that we as democratic societies, | :51:57. | :52:02. | |
unless we want markets to govern everything, we need to have a | :52:02. | :52:06. | |
debate about where markets belong and where they don't. Where do they | :52:06. | :52:11. | |
belong? Stkphrie I am a great believer in freedom and I think | :52:11. | :52:17. | |
people have a right to buy and sell things. We 45 had this debate in my | :52:17. | :52:21. | |
youth where we have the communist system to the east and a more free | :52:21. | :52:25. | |
system to the west and in the United States. And people decided | :52:25. | :52:31. | |
in their millions that they would rather live in the free enterprise | :52:31. | :52:36. | |
system. The communist system got rid of planning and they had to | :52:36. | :52:41. | |
shoot people, because so many were trying to leave. How far would you | :52:41. | :52:47. | |
take it? Should there be a free market in kidneys let's say for | :52:47. | :52:54. | |
transplantation. I don't work on that. Is it communist to say there | :52:54. | :52:59. | |
may not be a free market in kidneys. It is a state imposition of | :52:59. | :53:03. | |
something o' above the market and I accept as a democratic politician, | :53:03. | :53:07. | |
it is my duty from my colleagues to say there are certain things the | :53:07. | :53:12. | |
market shouldn't do. I don't want a free market in nuclear bombs. | :53:13. | :53:17. | |
do you, if you agree with freedom and people to make their own | :53:17. | :53:20. | |
decisions, you can't stop the market invading into areas which | :53:20. | :53:27. | |
you don't believe in either? It is difficult to do. As we're | :53:27. | :53:33. | |
discovering with nuclear technology and drugs. But I'm not one who | :53:33. | :53:38. | |
thinks you should stop somebody selling their Olympic torch. It | :53:38. | :53:43. | |
would be intrusive to have Government inspectors coming around | :53:43. | :53:47. | |
to check up you have still got certain items. That would not be a | :53:47. | :53:54. | |
free society. When you try to solve the problem of babies being born to | :53:54. | :54:00. | |
drug addicted women, by offering money to a woman to be sterilised, | :54:00. | :54:04. | |
should such a charity operate? is the kind of thing you have a | :54:04. | :54:07. | |
democratic Parliament to debate. You're opening implied you wanted | :54:07. | :54:13. | |
to stop all sorts of markets functioning that are harmless. | :54:13. | :54:17. | |
is interesting is that the reference to higher values, and | :54:17. | :54:21. | |
that is the point of my book, there are some values, as you say, that | :54:21. | :54:27. | |
are higher than markets, and lead us, we disagree about where to draw | :54:27. | :54:31. | |
the line. But we need a public debate about which higher values | :54:31. | :54:35. | |
should restprictst extension of markets -- restrict the extension | :54:35. | :54:41. | |
of markets in some areas. If you accept that people in their | :54:41. | :54:50. | |
millions rejected egalitarianism at the level of communism, this is the | :54:50. | :54:55. | |
natural order and won't there be a backlash, against the market | :54:55. | :55:00. | |
invading in areas which are too sensitive? We may be seeing a | :55:00. | :55:04. | |
backlash now. I think that rather than have it be a blind backlash, | :55:04. | :55:10. | |
better it be a deliberate one that, we that debate openly what are the | :55:10. | :55:14. | |
higher values that should constrain the reach of market into certain | :55:14. | :55:18. | |
areas, so that markets can do their work and perform the public good in | :55:18. | :55:20. | |
areas where they belong. Do you think there should be some | :55:20. | :55:27. | |
restrictions in what markets do? What was interesting about the book | :55:27. | :55:33. | |
is the grey areas, we agree there shouldn't be a market in nuclear | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
bombs. The book says a nursery which your parents have been | :55:37. | :55:43. | |
expected to pick up their children on time, they don't soshes | :55:43. | :55:46. | |
introduces fines, the number of late parents increase, because they | :55:46. | :55:51. | |
want to pay the fine to get another hour at the nursery. What the | :55:51. | :55:56. | |
conclusion from that? It is that market mechanisms alone are not | :55:56. | :56:00. | |
enough. You need to have moral expectations, so people do honour | :56:00. | :56:06. | |
their contracts and do what they say. But clearly they don't. It is | :56:06. | :56:12. | |
difficult to stop a market. We see that in a country like Greece, | :56:12. | :56:16. | |
where informal cash markets are breaking out to deal with the | :56:16. | :56:20. | |
collapse of the state. But the point I took is that markets are | :56:21. | :56:25. | |
not enough. You need a strong moral underpinning and unless you have | :56:25. | :56:28. | |
those, you don't have a well functioning society. Are you saying | :56:28. | :56:33. | |
the market invading stops people having a moral view. That is the | :56:33. | :56:39. | |
point, if you have markets dominate, people's morals go out of window. | :56:39. | :56:44. | |
No markets are amoral, not immoral. We live in a pluer is tick society | :56:44. | :56:50. | |
without a single morality that everyone accepts. There are | :56:50. | :56:56. | |
conflict of view over what is the moral position. What is your moral | :56:56. | :57:02. | |
position in so-called death bond, life assurance that pay out when | :57:02. | :57:06. | |
others die. That's right, Wall Street has created death bonds | :57:06. | :57:13. | |
where you can invest in a stranger, or a bundle of a group of strangers | :57:13. | :57:18. | |
dying sooner rather than later. I would say that coarsens our | :57:18. | :57:22. | |
attitude to life. Be what about that. Any objection? I would need | :57:22. | :57:28. | |
to see what was involved. Named contracts on people would be | :57:28. | :57:33. | |
unpleasant. If it is a way of managing mortality risks, I would | :57:33. | :57:38. | |
want to understand it. We haven't got much time I have been told. But | :57:38. | :57:42. | |
on the nursery thing, if people are being late in the first place, that | :57:42. | :57:46. | |
is why they were being fined, and then it doesn't work, do you just | :57:46. | :57:52. | |
drop the whole market force in that sense? That is the market, you are | :57:52. | :57:56. | |
in the market, to provide the place and take your child and there is | :57:56. | :58:02. | |
cash changing hands. They have got to get their pricing right. Or only | :58:02. | :58:09. | |
the very rich can afford to let their children stay late. | :58:09. | :58:14. | |
Whrafrpblgts has been pointed out is central to the idea of book, | :58:14. | :58:18. | |
sometimes markets crowd out none market value worth caring about. | :58:18. | :58:22. | |
Thank I yo. Just time for the answer to the quiz. Which of the | :58:22. | :58:27. | |
following cases did not result in a as bow. I think it was the | :58:27. | :58:34. | |
helicopter. Ce you're right. reckon he was a non-Dom and nobody | :58:34. | :58:39. | |
cowl track him down. Lord Adonis you have had too long to think | :58:39. | :58:46. |