Browse content similar to 09/11/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Afternoon, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics. After the Prime | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
Minister's uncomfortable moment on the This Morning sofa, that will | :00:48. | :00:52. | |
teach him, is he right to warn of a witch-hunt or is this the start of | :00:52. | :00:57. | |
a backlash against claims of abuse? The former Tory grandee who was | :00:57. | :01:02. | |
named was linked with the abuse at this children's home in north Wales, | :01:02. | :01:07. | |
he publicly denies the allegations. We will have the latest. And a new | :01:07. | :01:12. | |
archbishop, a former oil executive who went to Eton, of course, but | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
where does Justin Welby stand and gay marriage, women bishops and | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
those ungodly bankers? We will look at the politics of the posh primate | :01:20. | :01:25. | |
in Lambeth. Cut the backlog of cases at the Border Agency mean an | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
amnesty for some illegal immigrants? We will talk to the | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee, he says it might. And we | :01:32. | :01:36. | |
report from Corby, scene of the latest by-election following the | :01:36. | :01:46. | |
:01:46. | :01:48. | ||
So a veritable pot-pourri over the next 60 minutes, whatever that | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
means, all coming up in public service broadcasting at its finest! | :01:52. | :01:59. | |
With us for the duration, George Parker of the Financial Times and | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
Carla Buzasi, editor-in-chief of the Huffington Post, a website, the | :02:04. | :02:09. | |
Huffington Post! The Financial Times is becoming a website. Let | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
start with the latest skirmish in the phoney war over press | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
regulation, the publication of the Leveson report is expected by the | :02:16. | :02:21. | |
end of the month. This morning over 40 Conservative MPs and peers wrote | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
to the Guardian of all papers to express their support for some sort | :02:26. | :02:29. | |
of independent regulation of the press. Now, it is not clear exactly | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
what they favour, but they are explicit that self-regulation as | :02:33. | :02:38. | |
exists now is no longer an option. And that is a position which | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
contrasts with many other Conservatives in their party. This | :02:43. | :02:47. | |
report is going to split the Tories, isn't it? Yeah, I think it is, and | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
we are seeing the first manifestation of that with his | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
letter to the Guardian, because the signs are that David Cameron is | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
torn on this, he might favour a slightly stronger regulation, but | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
the press is breathing down his neck, the Daily Mail group, saying | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
that any sort of statutory underpinning of this independent | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
regulatory system amounts to the licensing of journalists. My | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
newspaper is among those which thinks that is a slippery slope. | :03:11. | :03:17. | |
The Financial Times is against... I got told off by a lawyer for | :03:17. | :03:21. | |
calling it statutory regulation, but any kind of state underpinning | :03:21. | :03:26. | |
of the regulation. You can see why this debate has arisen, because if | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
you have an independent regulator and some people they do not want to | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
abide by its rulings, particularly in the case of the Express group, | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
do you need to have some sort of state backing to ensure that people | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
signed up to the new code? And yet Labour has committed itself to | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
Leveson's recommendations before they even know what they are. But | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
if Labour is in favour, I expect a lot of Lib Dems will want to go | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
down that road, too. That puts the Conservatives more in the spotlight. | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
I think they are in the spotlight, but Cameron has got himself into | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
this. I do not think he ever realised how long it would take, | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
how foolish certain senior members would end up looking through it, | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
and at the end of it we are effectively still in the same mess | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
that we were when we started. Nothing clear is coming out of it. | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
Hopefully when you finally publishers, he will have something | :04:18. | :04:23. | |
to recommend, but I do not think it is clear how it is going to go. | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
Cameron is between a rock and a hard place, isn't he? I get the | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
impression listening to him that he would rather avoid statutory | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
regulation is the can, and he has not got any friends in the Tory | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
press, but he knows that the press does not like it, the Guardian does | :04:37. | :04:43. | |
not like it, the Financial Times, two left-of-centre paper will stop | :04:43. | :04:50. | |
we do not like it! It is not going to happen if the Huffington Post UK | :04:50. | :04:55. | |
does not like it! But the public opinion does not like the press at | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
the moment, they did not like what they heard that Leveson, and he | :04:59. | :05:03. | |
will be under pressure from Labour, the Lib Dems, public opinion in | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
general, Hugh Grant and other famous folk to do something about | :05:06. | :05:11. | |
it. I think anything which smacks of the press being in the last- | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
chance saloon again, giving them one last chance, will not wash with | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
the public. The public wants something that guarantees them | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
redress. We have drunk at the last- chance saloon and directed other | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
way out! I think that is the problem. We saw an interesting | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
debate in the Commons this week when Nick Clegg said it had to | :05:28. | :05:31. | |
progress with cross-party support, because the Labour Party are in | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
favour of some kind of statutory basis for this, the Liberal | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
Democrats are, quite a few members of the Conservative Party. That is | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
a majority. What an online news and opinion provider like the | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
Huffington Post, would that be covered by Leveson? Oh I appeared | :05:48. | :05:53. | |
in front of Leveson, and it was probably about... Did you know what | :05:53. | :05:58. | |
it was? We are a member of the PCC, we are the only 100% digital media | :05:59. | :06:04. | |
organisation... New volunteer. did, and it was important to us, | :06:04. | :06:10. | |
because I and my team believe that the code of practice is sensible, | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
but also... You know, we want to be seen as trustworthy, and this was a | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
statement to that effect. I think he will see digital publications, | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
not all of them, the want to be seen alongside a... Part of the | :06:23. | :06:28. | |
mainstream. Absolutely. My sources say by the end of November. Yes, | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
the same thing, by the end of November. Then there will be a big | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
row, then there would be the ordnance datum -- the Autumn | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
Statement, then it will die over Christmas, then it will come back. | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
I think the political story will run and run. | :06:43. | :06:49. | |
A Conservative peer, Lord McAlpine, was a major fundraiser for Margaret | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
Thatcher in the 1980s. Indeed, he regarded himself as her bag man. | :06:53. | :07:01. | |
His memoirs are called Once a Jolly bagman. He has vehemently denied | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
the abuse of children at a care home in north Wales in the 1970s. | :07:04. | :07:09. | |
His name had been bandied around, along with many other | :07:09. | :07:16. | |
unsubstantiated allegations, on what we call the into Web. Our | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
political correspondent Carole Walker can tell us more. This came | :07:20. | :07:25. | |
out after the breakfast TV shows, what does it tell us? Well, an | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
interesting and bold decision by Lord McAlpine to act to try to | :07:29. | :07:34. | |
clear his name after days are speculation which he himself | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
describes as a media frenzy. Now, this goes back to last Friday, when | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
the Newsnight programme ran allegations from a victim of child | :07:42. | :07:47. | |
abuse, Steve Messham, who says that he was abused in these care homes | :07:47. | :07:54. | |
in Wrexham by a senior Conservative dating back to the Conservative era. | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
Since then, there has been a huge amount of speculation linking Lord | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
McAlpine to that allegation, and today he says there is a media | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
frenzy, I have to expect that an editor will soon come under | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
pressure to misnaming me, and he has decided that he must publicly | :08:10. | :08:15. | |
tackle the slurs and set the record straight. Now, he says very | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
specifically that he had only ever been to Wrexham once, that was in | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
his role within the Conservative Party, he was accompanied by a | :08:22. | :08:27. | |
party agent. He said that he had never stayed in a hotel nearby, he | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
did not have a Rolls-Royce, where some of this is alleged to have | :08:30. | :08:36. | |
happened. He says specifically, I did not sexually abused any | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
resident of the children's home in Wrexham. He goes on, interestingly | :08:40. | :08:46. | |
enough, to express strong sympathy for people who have been victims of | :08:46. | :08:52. | |
abuse. He describes it as abhorrent. And it also says that he does not | :08:52. | :08:58. | |
accuse Steve Messham of any kind of malicious intent. He simply thinks | :08:58. | :09:02. | |
that if he believes Lord McAlpine was the man who abused him all the | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
years ago, I can only suggest he is mistaken and he has identified the | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
wrong person. So interestingly, such a senior figure from the past | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
has decided that the only way to confront these allegations is to | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
come out publicly, to try to clear his name, and the risk is of course | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
that his name and his picture are then going to be up there in the | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
newspapers, but he has clearly decided he cannot let the innuendo | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
continue. All right, thank you for bringing us up to date. His | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
statement comes after the story in the garden this morning which also | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
named Lord McAlpine, saying that they believed Newsnight had got the | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
wrong man, although they did not name him on Newsnight. But there | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
was another McAlpine who may have been in a frame, it all gets very | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
muddied and complicated, and those allegations of abuse in North Wales | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
followed the revelations about Jimmy Savile, and before that the | :09:54. | :09:59. | |
convictions for child remain in Rochdale. It seems that sexual | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
abuse, child abuse is everywhere when you turn on the news these | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
days, but is it really true? Is there a danger that the pursuit of | :10:07. | :10:12. | |
abuses is turning into a witch-hunt led by usually anonymous people on | :10:12. | :10:17. | |
the internet? Are innocent people being placed under suspicion, wild | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
accusations flying around cyberspace with very little | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
evidence ever produced to back them up? This is what David Cameron had | :10:24. | :10:32. | |
to say when he was on ITV's programme yesterday. This is one of | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
the problems, I have heard all sorts of names being bandied around, | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
and everyone sits around and speculates about people, and on a | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
second, some of whom are alive, some of whom are dead, and I think | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
it is very important that anyone has any information at any | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
paedophile, no matter how high up in the community, alive or dead, go | :10:51. | :10:56. | |
to the police. This is very important... A cursory glance at | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
the internet, it took me about three minutes last night to | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
continually find a list of the same names. I have those names there, | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
those are the names on a piece of paper. You know the names on the | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
piece of paper, will you be speaking to those people? This is | :11:12. | :11:17. | |
really important, right? There is a danger, if we are not careful, that | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
this could turn into a sort of witch hunt, particularly against | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
people Bouake. And I am worried about the sort of things you are | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
doing right now, giving me a list of names who have taken off the | :11:28. | :11:33. | |
internet. We are joined now by David Aaronovitch of the Times, who | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
yesterday wrote a column about the dangers of a witch-hunt, and by | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
Holly Dustin, director of End Violence Against Women. Welcome to | :11:40. | :11:45. | |
both of you. David, you think there is the whiff of a witch-hunt around | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
this. I think there is a danger, there is a right way and a wrong | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
way to do this. The right way is what Keir Starmer did when he | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
looked at what was happening in Rochdale and said, we have to look | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
at police practice and review police practice in dealing with | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
allegations of abuse by vulnerable people. That was the correct way to | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
do it. Then the incorrect way, the worst way, and that is what we saw | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
from Phillips Schofield, and frankly I think we saw a Newsnight | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
the other night when they put up Steve Messham to make an allegation | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
which was referring to somebody whom the Guardian then said later, | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
name does not actually being responsible, which brings up the | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
question of how it was that he was misidentified in the first place | :12:25. | :12:27. | |
and what that Ms identification means. Then there are the claims | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
which have been made in Parliament and elsewhere that there is a | :12:31. | :12:36. | |
powerful network of paedophiles in the political sphere who wait to be | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
uncovered, and for which there appears to be no evidence | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
whatsoever. I can tell you that my Twitter Fiat is full of people who | :12:43. | :12:48. | |
believe there is and that failures of past enquiries mean that | :12:48. | :12:53. | |
anything is possible. -- Twitter feed. People look at the Olympics | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
go feel and say, yes, he knows something, he is an official | :12:57. | :13:03. | |
journalist. -- Philip Schofield. I think it was outrageous, the kind | :13:03. | :13:08. | |
of self-righteous way in which he presented a completely useless and | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
ridiculous list to the Prime Minister in that way, as if to say, | :13:12. | :13:17. | |
look at me! It took me at least three minutes to get the list! | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
There is clearly a problem with the way that the media is dealing with | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
these issues, and what we saw yesterday was not acceptable. | :13:24. | :13:29. | |
not just the media, might with their feet is full of the same | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
things. It is the same with social media, we are burying our head in | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
the sands. You only have to look at the sentencing for the people who | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
named the rape victim in the Ched Evans case to know that there is a | :13:41. | :13:46. | |
big issue with social media. But look, we have got a situation where | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
we have got an unprecedented number of women, mainly, and some men | :13:49. | :13:52. | |
coming forward to say they were abused in the past, they were | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
silenced, dismissed, not listened to, finally having the courage to | :13:56. | :14:01. | |
come forward because of what we are seeing in the media. But I think, | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
you know, talking about a witch- hunts, talking about people making | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
up allegations is the wrong message to be sending. We need to be saying, | :14:09. | :14:14. | |
we believe you, there is support out there, we need to be going | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
through due process and the courts system if that is what people want | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
to be doing. But you are right to raise a concern, but the concern is | :14:21. | :14:26. | |
about the media, not people making up abuse, because there is no | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
evidence that there are higher numbers of false allegations in | :14:29. | :14:34. | |
relation to rape cases, for example, than other crimes. Let me bring | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
David in to reply to that. entirely agree that there have been | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
a lot of people out there and continue to be people who are not | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
believed and not heard. I cannot think it is true, unfortunately, | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
that there are no false allegations, and probably no more so than in | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
other spheres, but this is where people are zeroing in so hard that | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
those false allegations gained a kind of attraction that they do not | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
in other spheres of life. I honestly believe that, we could | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
privately go through some of the allegations that have been made and | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
I could convince you that there was a very big problem with some of the | :15:07. | :15:15. | |
allegations that have been made and I have looked at the evidence and | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
so has the government, because they want to give anonymity. They found | :15:19. | :15:26. | |
there was no evidence to make that policy change. We know only about | :15:26. | :15:29. | |
or one in 10 they put victims report to the police because they | :15:29. | :15:34. | |
feel they will be not believed and so on. I just wonder, experts on | :15:34. | :15:40. | |
sexual violence, primarily perpetrated by men against women | :15:40. | :15:46. | |
and some boys, this is very common, it is in every community, in homes | :15:46. | :15:54. | |
and towns and cities. Which makes it all the harder to find out. | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
not as their historic problem. I wonder whether the scale of what | :15:57. | :16:02. | |
we're looking at is whether this is where the backlash is coming from. | :16:02. | :16:09. | |
Why do some men choose to abuse? Rape? I would like you to write a | :16:09. | :16:18. | |
column about that. I have written. Do you believe the claims, | :16:18. | :16:23. | |
substance to the claims, that there is some kind of high powered | :16:23. | :16:28. | |
paedophile ring at the heart of Westminster? I haven't looked in | :16:28. | :16:33. | |
detail at those claims. There are certainly some men who sexually | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
abuse in networks, some men who abuse on their own. You don't think | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
there is evidence to justify an investigation into a Westminster | :16:40. | :16:47. | |
network? I think we need to join up all these inquiries and look at the | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
scale of sexual violence and abuse in this country. And how we support | :16:51. | :16:58. | |
victims. It's a real problem with joining up the inquiries. A judge | :16:58. | :17:04. | |
lead judicial inquiry, we would be here for 25 years. Also the victims | :17:04. | :17:09. | |
would be dead. We already have a problem with historic abuse and | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
deciding what has happened with that because stories change and | :17:13. | :17:21. | |
develop and so on and most claims are not malicious. Each time we | :17:21. | :17:26. | |
have had a reiteration of a major child abuse scare, and so on, which | :17:26. | :17:31. | |
is good it comes forward, unfortunately, we've had a malign | :17:31. | :17:36. | |
element which has gone off on a tangent. We had it during the | :17:36. | :17:43. | |
satanic ritual abuse claims and so on which led to the situation in | :17:43. | :17:48. | |
Nottingham. Why can't we go from taking these things seriously | :17:48. | :17:53. | |
without having to go to the witch hunt element which becomes a | :17:53. | :18:02. | |
problem. If you have an over arching inquiry, what chance to | :18:02. | :18:11. | |
mind was the Sunday bloody Sunday inquiry. It cost �250 million. It | :18:11. | :18:17. | |
took over 12 years to report. problem is, it's very easy to say, | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
this was a problem at the BBC Light Entertainment department in the | :18:21. | :18:26. | |
1970s and Eighties, which frankly it was not. I don't think anybody | :18:26. | :18:32. | |
said that. It's happening now. It's very common. 60,000 women in this | :18:32. | :18:39. | |
country are raped each year. No one is denying that. Least of all David. | :18:39. | :18:46. | |
I think his point is, because of the cacophony of sound coming out | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
with accusations being made almost every day, the chances of really | :18:50. | :18:55. | |
getting to the truth are becoming more difficult. There is a real | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
issue with how the media reports with this issue and with libel and | :18:59. | :19:04. | |
social media and those issues. is the mainstream media done wrong? | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
The we look at what happened yesterday with Phillip Schofield. | :19:08. | :19:15. | |
You think that was wrong? That's not helpful. The danger here is, | :19:15. | :19:21. | |
there are clearly major child abuse accusations both historic and | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
current to answer. But they are now being wrapped in a smoke of every | :19:25. | :19:30. | |
morning, fresh accusations without evidence. There is also a danger | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
the internet is bad and everything about the internet is bad. You | :19:34. | :19:39. | |
might expect that to come from me. And the print media and additional | :19:39. | :19:46. | |
media is good. This was a mainstream television programme of. | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
We have got to be very careful. Rumours fly around the internet all | :19:51. | :19:54. | |
the time of the also at the heart of this is something very, very | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
serious and people need to be brought to account whether they | :19:58. | :20:03. | |
work at Westminster or look after children in care. I think this is | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
the start, isn't it? The fact of the matter is, as these inquiries | :20:07. | :20:12. | |
unfold, we will learn a lot about what's going on of. It's still | :20:12. | :20:17. | |
going on today. In the Seventies and Eighties, it wasn't just a few | :20:17. | :20:22. | |
people are turning a blind eye to it but a large part of society. | :20:22. | :20:27. | |
turned a blind eye to it in Rochdale. Girls were going to | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
school clearly vulnerable, smelling of alcohol, and clearly showing | :20:31. | :20:36. | |
signs of abuse and vulnerability and they were written off as being | :20:36. | :20:41. | |
consenting to be involved in prostitution. I think this is where | :20:41. | :20:45. | |
I'm concerned about what chance for so I don't think we should close | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
the door to a conversation that needs to happen. I think the witch | :20:49. | :20:54. | |
hunt closes the door and that's why I think we have got to satisfy a | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
proper standards of evidence and complaint because, if we don't, | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
people will get the idea that none of this is true. And then you have | :21:01. | :21:08. | |
the problem You are talking about. Where does the story go from here? | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
This atmosphere will build and build and build because they have | :21:12. | :21:17. | |
been several suggestions of different people, who won not the | :21:17. | :21:24. | |
person and people agree. -- who are not the person. Not named. As long | :21:24. | :21:29. | |
as that continues, this story will have the social meaning elsewhere. | :21:29. | :21:34. | |
After something has been said enough, on the internet, there | :21:35. | :21:40. | |
comes up point when people say, it's out there. There is no | :21:40. | :21:45. | |
stopping it in that sense. We have to begin to come down a bit. | :21:45. | :21:48. | |
think what we need to do is encourage victims to come forward | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
and survivors and say, you will be supported and not dismissed and you | :21:52. | :21:58. | |
will be believed. You can't do that until you know they are victims. | :21:58. | :22:03. | |
There is due process a but most of it turns out actually that they | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
don't report to the police, said they won support services, we'd | :22:06. | :22:15. | |
Up yes, to the right people. Don't go inside your story to a newspaper. | :22:15. | :22:25. | |
:22:25. | :22:27. | ||
Don't tell everybody. There was a horrific video uploaded to YouTube | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
about her father abusing her, and it is tragic watching this poor | :22:31. | :22:36. | |
girl, tears streaming down her face, but they need to know places they | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
can go to speak to, rather than broadcasting it everywhere. We will | :22:40. | :22:47. | |
return to this but, for the moment, thank you. Now, the waiting is over, | :22:47. | :22:50. | |
the internal wrangling concluded and the white smoke has appeared | :22:50. | :22:54. | |
from the chimney. Oh, wait a minute, I've got my churches mixed up. For | :22:54. | :22:57. | |
it is not a Pope that we proclaim this morning, but a new Archbishop | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
of Canterbury. His name is Justin Welby and he's an ex-oil executive | :23:00. | :23:08. | |
who has only been a bishop for a year. Cannot be right? He has | :23:08. | :23:13. | |
probably read the Financial Times. Let's hear from the man himself. He | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
was quick to address one of the most controversial issues in his | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
newly elevated in box. Same-sex marriages and his opposition to | :23:21. | :23:27. | |
them. What the Church does here deeply affects the already greatly | :23:27. | :23:33. | |
suffering churches in places like Nigeria. I support the House of | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
Bishops statement in the summer in answer to the Government's | :23:36. | :23:41. | |
consultation on same-sex marriage. But I also know I need to listen | :23:41. | :23:46. | |
very attentively to the LG Beattie community, and examine my own | :23:46. | :23:54. | |
thinking carefully. I am always adverse to the language of | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
exclusion, when what we are called to his two lava in the same way as | :23:58. | :24:03. | |
Jesus Christ loves us. In the church, we need to create safe | :24:03. | :24:12. | |
spaces for these issues to be discussed in honesty and in love. | :24:12. | :24:19. | |
We are joined by the Second Church Estates Commissioner. Who was the | :24:19. | :24:25. | |
first? Andrew Smith. You're playing second fiddle to a journalist? | :24:25. | :24:33. | |
That's the way it works. And Giles Fraser former Canon at St Paul's | :24:33. | :24:39. | |
and now a vicar in South London. He's now a vicar. What kind of man | :24:39. | :24:44. | |
is the new bishop? It's good news for the Church. I think he is a | :24:44. | :24:49. | |
people person. I think he will be a good leader, clear leadership. I | :24:49. | :24:53. | |
think one saw that there, he will listen but also lead, and I think | :24:53. | :24:56. | |
he will be keen to ensure the Church of England becomes a | :24:56. | :25:03. | |
national voice. A church for the nation and it has a presence. | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
can it be a church for the nation that hardly anybody goes to it? | :25:07. | :25:13. | |
That is what he will want to do. I think Justin Welby in the next 20 | :25:13. | :25:18. | |
years will want to ensure that the Church becomes a Church of growth. | :25:18. | :25:23. | |
Not just obsessed by sex. I think the Church of England in the last | :25:23. | :25:29. | |
couple of years, for some time, has been obsessed by it sex and its own | :25:29. | :25:34. | |
internal issues. And there's two jobs for him to do, to hold the | :25:34. | :25:40. | |
Church together, but the other much more important is to forget about | :25:40. | :25:46. | |
the Church and to speak out to people in the nation and trying to | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
recommend the Christian faith in an intelligent, sensible way. | :25:50. | :25:55. | |
think this other man who can do it? I do, at I to disagree with him on | :25:55. | :25:59. | |
a number of things but I'm happy to put it aside. Why was he chose | :25:59. | :26:07. | |
then? I think he was chosen because he impressed the committee by his | :26:07. | :26:10. | |
commitment to wanting to reinvigorate the church and reach | :26:10. | :26:15. | |
out. Does it work that this committee puts just a couple of | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
names up? The Prime Minister makes the final choice. What has got to | :26:19. | :26:24. | |
be clear, a boring issue, when Gordon Brown was prime minister, | :26:24. | :26:29. | |
without consulting anyone, he decided he didn't want number 10 to | :26:29. | :26:33. | |
have any further involvement in the appointment of Archbishop of | :26:33. | :26:41. | |
Canterbury's. Because there was a Scotsman. Absolutely. He got rid of | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
this. This will be the first time an archbishop has been chosen by | :26:45. | :26:55. | |
the Church, which is a good thing. The process is, done by the | :26:55. | :27:00. | |
establishment in smoke-filled rooms. In terms of democracy, it's more | :27:00. | :27:07. | |
like China than the USA. But, nonetheless, actually, it's the one | :27:07. | :27:12. | |
key process but it has produced the right manner. What do you think | :27:12. | :27:18. | |
about his career as an oil executive? He hasn't be | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
institutionalised by the Church and that's a good thing. He has got a | :27:21. | :27:27. | |
hinterland. He spoke to me about the occupying and thought they were | :27:27. | :27:29. | |
substantially right about the criticisms of what is happening of | :27:29. | :27:35. | |
modern capitalism. He is excoriating on problems of wealth | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
and poverty and the huge gap between the rich and poor. I think | :27:39. | :27:44. | |
the fact he can also speak the language of finance and is not | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
embarrassed about that, is very important. He's done very well on | :27:48. | :27:53. | |
the Banking Commission. Excoriating on the gap between rich and poor. | :27:53. | :28:01. | |
That must cheer you up. Yes, the Church has to speak as it sees. | :28:01. | :28:06. | |
It's important. Actually, what it's really doing, if one has an | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
Archbishop of Canterbury who speaks his mind, the government can | :28:09. | :28:16. | |
respond to that and I'm sure it will collate. How long before it | :28:16. | :28:26. | |
:28:26. | :28:29. | ||
falls out with the prime minister? But is no indication of friction. A | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
good proportion of the Conservative Party is falling out with a prime | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
minister at the moment. He has to speak truth to power and sometimes | :28:37. | :28:43. | |
it will not be palatable. The job of the Church through the century | :28:43. | :28:47. | |
is to be part of power. It's part of the established Church of | :28:47. | :28:53. | |
England. A you're absolutely right. How can it speak truth to itself? | :28:54. | :29:03. | |
:29:04. | :29:04. | ||
That's what it's supposed to do. You can remember rows. What about | :29:04. | :29:10. | |
the non-conformist churches, the Methodists? If Britain go up to | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
date more than the 19th century, I was usually inspired, came into the | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
church because the people like the Bishop of Durham on the miners' | :29:17. | :29:24. | |
strike, face in the City, which didn't annoy Mrs Thatcher, and | :29:24. | :29:29. | |
Rowan Williams has done that over the war, the finance, in ways that | :29:29. | :29:34. | |
haven't endeared him. They were all left wing. You have somebody now | :29:34. | :29:42. | |
centre right. No, I don't think so. You think it's part of the right? | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
The you can't pigeonhole him. because of the school he went to, | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
whatever. The I'm not saying it's because of the school you went to | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
put some of the things he said. is anti-gay marriage but there's | :29:54. | :30:01. | |
nobody who could get his job at the moment who is pro-gay marriage. The | :30:01. | :30:09. | |
Church would implode. Really? It's still that toxic. Yes, I'm in | :30:09. | :30:13. | |
favour of it. I wish we had an archbishop who argued for it but we | :30:13. | :30:19. | |
will not have that. If you bracket that one out, because it's an | :30:19. | :30:24. | |
impossibility, Justin Welby is not a right-wing person in the way you | :30:24. | :30:31. | |
have described. Those terms don't break down. Let me bring in our | :30:31. | :30:39. | |
other guests for that do we do this too much prominence? Nobody chose | :30:39. | :30:49. | |
:30:49. | :30:50. | ||
the Archbishop of Canterbury I know. It is on our front page today. | :30:50. | :30:55. | |
is because he was a banker, they look after their own! We take a | :30:55. | :30:59. | |
certain interest in his views, and he has an interesting position, a | :30:59. | :31:03. | |
member of the House of Lords, sitting on a committee advising the | :31:03. | :31:08. | |
government of legislating on the banking industry, the most senior | :31:08. | :31:12. | |
cleric in a land as well. I think he will be an interesting figure in | :31:12. | :31:15. | |
the public debate. Rowan Williams did not get as involved in the | :31:15. | :31:19. | |
financial crisis and the aftermath as he could have done, and I think | :31:19. | :31:24. | |
this archbishop is going to be a strong voice in the story of | :31:24. | :31:29. | |
responsible capitalism. He is very much on the Ed Miliband agenda. | :31:29. | :31:33. | |
financial, banking issues. Responsibility in the boardroom, | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
but he made a good speech a month ago about the socially useless | :31:36. | :31:42. | |
activity of bankers in the run-up to the crash. This is a big story | :31:42. | :31:46. | |
for the Huffington Post? usually, we have covered it, but I | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
agree that there is a bit of a media storm around it, a political | :31:49. | :31:53. | |
storm because Downing Street announced it, and actually I found | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
it ridiculous that Downing Street in the 21st century, they are the | :31:57. | :32:04. | |
ones deciding who it is. You have to decide where the church gets... | :32:04. | :32:07. | |
The population at large will not be talking about this in the way that | :32:07. | :32:13. | |
we are, but one final point, we are talking about how he is pro women | :32:13. | :32:18. | |
bishops, I was talking about a female Archbishop of Canterbury in | :32:18. | :32:21. | |
future, that is what we should be talking about. Hopefully the week | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
after next we would get the women's bishop measure through the General | :32:25. | :32:28. | |
Synod, and if that happens, in due course there will be no reason why | :32:29. | :32:32. | |
one should not have a woman archbishop. You would be in favour | :32:32. | :32:36. | |
of that? If you have women bishops, the logic is you will have a woman | :32:36. | :32:41. | |
archbishop. I think it is a bigger story than we are making out, not a | :32:41. | :32:45. | |
lesser story. There are 16,000 parishes in this country, other | :32:45. | :32:48. | |
things are important in the Westminster village, but in the | :32:48. | :32:53. | |
country this is rather important, the Church of England. It is still | :32:53. | :32:55. | |
something that stitches together communities the length and breadth | :32:55. | :32:59. | |
of this country in places that other organisations do not function, | :32:59. | :33:04. | |
so it is very important. Is it not true that more people go to the | :33:04. | :33:08. | |
mosque on Friday that the Church of England on Sunday? I don't know the | :33:08. | :33:13. | |
answer to that question. I think he will find the answer is yes, so | :33:13. | :33:19. | |
where is the position for the Mahler in the British constitution? | :33:19. | :33:24. | |
They clearly represent more church or mosque-go in people. The Church | :33:24. | :33:29. | |
of England has been part of the fabric of this country for hundreds | :33:29. | :33:34. | |
of years. I think it is a radical thing. The thing is, it does not | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
work on left and right, it just does not work on the traditional | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
patterns that you assume. Earlier this year, the Muslim, Jewish and | :33:42. | :33:47. | |
other faith communities met with the Queen at Lambeth, part of the | :33:47. | :33:50. | |
Jubilee celebrations, and they all acknowledge that one of the reasons | :33:50. | :33:53. | |
they felt comfortable about freedom of religion in this country was | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
because of the role of the established church, and that was, I | :33:57. | :34:03. | |
thought, quite clever. Just before we go, how difficult is it to the | :34:03. | :34:08. | |
parliament's Second Church Estates Commissioner? Look, let me tell you, | :34:08. | :34:14. | |
Andrew, the most challenging thing for me in recent weeks is to find | :34:14. | :34:17. | |
that I made as a Conservative backbencher a speech in support of | :34:18. | :34:23. | |
the government, and that became so unusual that it made the 7:10am on | :34:23. | :34:30. | |
the Today programme. Now you on the 12:30pm slot on the Daily Politics! | :34:30. | :34:33. | |
The important thing for the Conservative Party is working out | :34:33. | :34:37. | |
how to win the next election, being Second Church Estates Commissioner | :34:37. | :34:42. | |
is a doddle in comparison. Just as well, because I see it is unpaid! | :34:42. | :34:52. | |
:34:52. | :35:01. | ||
You get a bloody good memorial I knew him when he was a student! I | :35:01. | :35:07. | |
will be there! He will not have a say! Thank you all. | :35:07. | :35:11. | |
In six days' time the good people of Corby will be asked to brave the | :35:11. | :35:17. | |
winter weather and a vote for a new MP because... Excuse to me, please | :35:17. | :35:24. | |
wait, these Church Commissioners, honestly! The by-election is | :35:24. | :35:29. | |
happening because Louise Mensch, remember, she won and 2010, she | :35:29. | :35:33. | |
decided to stand down in order to spend more time with her family in | :35:33. | :35:36. | |
the United States, that is what she said. There is a slim Conservative | :35:37. | :35:41. | |
majority of under 2000, not a lot for a by-election, and Labour have | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
high hopes of overturning that, they are clear favourites to win | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
and win well. If they do, it will be their first by-election gain | :35:48. | :35:52. | |
from the Tories for more than 15 years, so a lot at stake, as David | :35:52. | :36:02. | |
:36:02. | :36:04. | ||
Corby, a constituency of two halves, a gritty post-industrial town | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
meeting cosy countryside village, which is why, if you want to know | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
which way the political wind is blowing, you come to this corner of | :36:12. | :36:17. | |
East Northamptonshire. Generally speaking, running Corby is a good | :36:18. | :36:22. | |
idea if you want to be the government. It was Labour in 1997 | :36:22. | :36:25. | |
at Taurean 2010, so the by-election is being seen as a political | :36:25. | :36:30. | |
weather vane, which is just like -- just what Michael Gove could do | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
without wit right now. Louise Mensch is sitting down to spend | :36:34. | :36:39. | |
more time without -- Louise Mensch is stepping down to spend more time | :36:39. | :36:45. | |
with her husband in America, not a popular decision universally. The | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
Conservative candidate and her friends in high places still | :36:48. | :36:54. | |
believe they can hold on. I will see you in a week's time when you | :36:54. | :36:59. | |
are elected! We need to be collecting the next MP, not | :36:59. | :37:04. | |
worrying about the last one. People want aspiration and hope, new jobs, | :37:04. | :37:08. | |
good education, and that is what I am hearing on the doorsteps, and | :37:08. | :37:12. | |
they know I would use my business background to encourage investment, | :37:12. | :37:16. | |
encourage investment like the link road that we have agreed to invest | :37:16. | :37:20. | |
in, encourage investment like the new jobs down at skew Bridge, and | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
that is why I am convinced that the pollsters are wrong. Maybe, but | :37:24. | :37:28. | |
others think the Louise Mensch factor has not really help. There | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
is a definite and happiness that she has turned down. The Tories | :37:32. | :37:35. | |
might not say it to you, but privately they are quite annoyed by | :37:35. | :37:39. | |
that. I think the Labour Party will make capital on the back of it, and | :37:39. | :37:43. | |
I think that they see it as a great opportunity to take back a seat | :37:43. | :37:47. | |
that they think is traditionally there's any way. They do, but the | :37:47. | :37:51. | |
Labour candidate is not taking anything for granted. You could see | :37:51. | :37:54. | |
he is road-testing Ed Miliband's One nation mantra on the leafy | :37:54. | :37:58. | |
lanes of Northamptonshire. What would you have to do to lose this | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
election? It is really important that anybody talking about his | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
election comes to see how diverse this constituency is, that we are | :38:05. | :38:09. | |
trying to make sure that it will work for the whole of Corby and | :38:09. | :38:15. | |
East Northamptonshire, chocolate- box villages, Corby town itself, we | :38:15. | :38:20. | |
are fighting for every vote, and we up asking people to show their | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
trust in One nation Labour. Spare a thought for the Lib Dems. The | :38:24. | :38:29. | |
pundits think they can be knocked into 4th place by UKIP, but the | :38:29. | :38:33. | |
candidate says that actually it is all still up for grabs. I think | :38:33. | :38:35. | |
they are wrong, because on the doorstep people are saying they | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
have not made up their minds, and they are conservative and Labour | :38:39. | :38:43. | |
voters that are saying to us, I really do not know who to vote for, | :38:43. | :38:46. | |
and we have really enjoyed that because it gives us the opportunity | :38:46. | :38:50. | |
to talk with them, to find out what the issues are and hopefully to | :38:50. | :38:56. | |
convert them to our cause. As for UKIP, Margot Parker is working hard | :38:56. | :39:00. | |
to convince the voters they are more than a single-issue party. | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
are knocking on doors, Labour people are saying, we are | :39:03. | :39:08. | |
definitely going for UKIP. Conservatives, I have just spoken | :39:08. | :39:12. | |
to two people, they will definitely vote for us. We are stepping up to | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
the plate and listening to what they Hussain, and they are agreeing | :39:15. | :39:19. | |
with us, so we have a good manifesto based on local issues. -- | :39:19. | :39:24. | |
what they are saying. How Corby votes will not tell us definitively | :39:24. | :39:27. | |
he will win the next general election, but it might give us a | :39:27. | :39:30. | |
clue, and that is why for all the parties these lanes and walkways | :39:30. | :39:35. | |
really matter. You can find the full list of | :39:35. | :39:41. | |
candidates standing in Corby on the BBC News website. George, everybody | :39:41. | :39:44. | |
in your part of the words is assuming that Labour will win this, | :39:44. | :39:49. | |
correct? That is correct, and by quite a big margin. Does that have | :39:49. | :39:54. | |
significance? We have seen by- elections coming and going. | :39:54. | :39:58. | |
circumstances of this one are quite strange, as David was just saying. | :39:58. | :40:03. | |
That is one reason why people hate a by-election for which they see no | :40:03. | :40:08. | |
need. I spoke to MPs will have been campaigning there, and there is a | :40:08. | :40:13. | |
real animosity towards Louise Mensch, who is standing down. So | :40:13. | :40:16. | |
strange circumstances, but if Labour did not win, it would be | :40:16. | :40:21. | |
extraordinary. It is a weather vane seat, the Midlands, a key | :40:21. | :40:25. | |
battleground, it is important for Ed Miliband, a stepping stone, but | :40:25. | :40:28. | |
no more than that. It is always good to win if you are the | :40:28. | :40:33. | |
opposition. I was looking at polling yesterday, how far ahead | :40:33. | :40:37. | |
are the Tories, but when they were asking whether that would have an | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
impact on how they would vote in a general election, yes, people are | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
saying they would vote Labour, but not for Miliband if they were | :40:45. | :40:49. | |
picking a prime minister. I think there is still some concern there. | :40:49. | :40:54. | |
Next Thursday, is it? It is, the same night as the elections for | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
police commissioners, will be more of a nationwide test. By which you | :40:58. | :41:08. | |
:41:08. | :41:13. | ||
mean England. Of course, sorry The backlog of unresolved cases at | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
the Border Agency means some immigrants may enjoy an amnesty as | :41:16. | :41:19. | |
their cases are written-off. The Immigration Minister was not | :41:19. | :41:23. | |
available to come onto the Daily Politics, but he has been | :41:23. | :41:28. | |
responding elsewhere on the BBC this morning. We are not going to | :41:28. | :41:32. | |
do an amnesty. Where we see no evidence that people are in the | :41:32. | :41:35. | |
country from inherited cases, we will put their files on one side, | :41:35. | :41:38. | |
but if those people come to light again, we will take action against | :41:38. | :41:43. | |
them. Where we have evidence they are in the country, we will first | :41:43. | :41:46. | |
of all contact them and try to persuade them to leave voluntarily. | :41:46. | :41:50. | |
If that fails, we will take steps to enforce their removal from the | :41:50. | :41:54. | |
country, that is what the public expects, and that is what we are | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
going to do, and we expect to have gone through those cases and know | :41:58. | :42:02. | |
which of the two categories people are in by the end of this year. | :42:02. | :42:07. | |
That is the line from the minister, not the line of the man we were | :42:07. | :42:11. | |
hoping to speak to, Keith Vaz of the Home Affairs Select Committee, | :42:11. | :42:16. | |
but he is stuck in a traffic jam on the M1 apparently. There has been a | :42:16. | :42:20. | |
bad accident on the M1, and that has held him up. To prepare to see | :42:20. | :42:25. | |
him, I was looking at the figures, there are currently 20 have eyes | :42:25. | :42:32. | |
and asylum cases going through. -- 25,500 asylum cases going through. | :42:32. | :42:36. | |
But there are 74,000 made up of individuals with whom officials are | :42:36. | :42:40. | |
no longer in touch, in other words they have lost them. Then there is | :42:40. | :42:45. | |
the migration refusal pool, that is people who are recorded as having | :42:45. | :42:49. | |
no permission to be in the UK but they do not know where they are, in | :42:49. | :42:52. | |
other words they have lost them! The whole thing is a complete | :42:52. | :42:57. | |
Horlicks. Yes, it is, and you need an effective system which gives bad | :42:57. | :43:01. | |
guys out, controls the numbers effectively and everyone knows | :43:01. | :43:05. | |
where they are. And keeping the doors open for people who bring | :43:05. | :43:09. | |
wealth and jobs and prosperity to this country. It sounds so simple, | :43:09. | :43:13. | |
doesn't it? We know the system is not working and the Border Agency | :43:13. | :43:16. | |
is a complete mess, we saw that at Heathrow before the summer, and | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
this is further evidence. Every government tries to come to grips | :43:20. | :43:27. | |
with this. The number is something like the population of Iceland. | :43:27. | :43:32. | |
think that came to the committee, more than 300,000 cases need to be | :43:32. | :43:36. | |
dealt with, needed to be dealt with at the end of June, and that is | :43:36. | :43:41. | |
equivalent to the population of Iceland. The Sun newspaper | :43:41. | :43:46. | |
helpfully points out that meant the country and not the supermarket! | :43:46. | :43:52. | |
am glad that is cleared up for us! When you look at this, they lost | :43:52. | :43:59. | |
74,000, they have lost 174,000, whatever the minister says, your | :43:59. | :44:06. | |
antennae picked up. They are going to give an amnesty. Surely we now | :44:06. | :44:09. | |
have to have a sensible debate about the amnesty. Boris Johnson | :44:09. | :44:13. | |
was talking about is a few years ago, it is not necessary a right or | :44:13. | :44:18. | |
left issue, no-one can work out to do, so why can't we have a sensible | :44:18. | :44:21. | |
debate to work out if there are people contributing to this country, | :44:21. | :44:27. | |
or that really needs to stay here, we cannot send them back to war- | :44:27. | :44:33. | |
torn countries, then let's talk about it sensibly. If you do not in | :44:34. | :44:38. | |
a blanket amnesty, which would be incredibly unpopular, if you start | :44:38. | :44:41. | |
to say as has been happening in America we are going to give an | :44:41. | :44:46. | |
amnesty to kids who have been born here and are now working or being | :44:46. | :44:50. | |
educated, they are Americans, you could do that here, but if you have | :44:50. | :44:56. | |
a controlled archive that you have lost, 74,000, and a refusal pool of | :44:56. | :45:06. | |
:45:06. | :45:11. | ||
174,000, you cannot do that, you do This is a huge problem for the | :45:11. | :45:14. | |
government. They will have to give amnesties to the people who are | :45:14. | :45:18. | |
here and that is a terrible hole in their policy. Republicans can't | :45:18. | :45:23. | |
work out what their policy is in the USA, and that had an impact in | :45:23. | :45:27. | |
the presidential elections to the Tories need to work it out. We're | :45:27. | :45:36. | |
talking here, not just about asylum-seekers, but, let's move on. | :45:36. | :45:39. | |
Now, a report out today suggests the number of complaints made about | :45:39. | :45:42. | |
the Health Service are increasing. Not good news for the Health | :45:42. | :45:45. | |
Secretary Jeremy Hunt. He is new in the job. So what's been the | :45:45. | :45:51. | |
problem? The NHS received over 150,000 complaints between 2011 and | :45:51. | :45:56. | |
2012. Of those just over 16,000 patients or family members were | :45:56. | :45:59. | |
dissatisfied with how the NHS tried to resolve the issue and so were | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
referred to the Health Service Ombudsman. That's up 8% on last | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
year. Complaints include a man whose skin cancer was misdiagnosed | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
by his GP practice on six different occasions but who was unable to get | :46:09. | :46:16. | |
the practice to acknowledge their failings when he complained. | :46:16. | :46:19. | |
Another who was accused by a surgeon of being a baby when he | :46:19. | :46:24. | |
expressed his anxiety about having a general anaesthetic. And a | :46:24. | :46:27. | |
bereaved daughter who was told death is rarely an ideal situation | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
for anyone and that, truth be told, your mother probably said her | :46:30. | :46:40. | |
:46:40. | :46:42. | ||
goodbyes long before the final moments. Julie Mellor, the new | :46:42. | :46:45. | |
ombudsman has said there needed to be a clear shift in attitude and | :46:45. | :46:53. | |
practice among some GPs. We had seen an increase in the number of | :46:53. | :46:57. | |
cases where the NHS has not acknowledged a mistake was made, an | :46:57. | :47:01. | |
increase in the number of cases where they have not explained what | :47:01. | :47:07. | |
actually happened, and an increase in in the sincere, inadequate | :47:07. | :47:12. | |
apologies, and that matters because it damages confidence in the NHS, | :47:12. | :47:16. | |
which provides fantastic ear to thousands of people every day -- in | :47:16. | :47:25. | |
sincere. -- fantastic care. Well, to discuss this I'm joined by the | :47:25. | :47:27. | |
Health Services Minister, Dr Daniel Poulter. And by Katherine Murphy of | :47:27. | :47:34. | |
the Patients Association. Is the NHS in general good at dealing with | :47:34. | :47:41. | |
people and complaints? I think the staff is a very much a defensive | :47:41. | :47:46. | |
culture when it comes to handling complaints. Patients call the | :47:46. | :47:49. | |
Patients Association helpline and tell us they feel it disillusioned | :47:50. | :47:54. | |
with the system, it's very complicated, it's a very long, very | :47:54. | :48:02. | |
bureaucratic, and the NHS rely very much on a written outcome of the | :48:03. | :48:07. | |
complaint which obviously is a barrier to a lot of people. How can | :48:07. | :48:12. | |
you improve that? The quality of care for the majority people is | :48:12. | :48:16. | |
very good and many people, most patients are satisfied. We do get | :48:16. | :48:21. | |
things wrong in the NHS sometimes. I know things go wrong and we don't | :48:21. | :48:25. | |
always get things right. The first thing to do is for professionals in | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
the NHS and managers to always acknowledge when things have gone | :48:29. | :48:37. | |
wrong and to make a sincere apology. Does that happen? Sometimes they're | :48:37. | :48:43. | |
quite slow to acknowledge something has gone badly wrong. I think, as | :48:43. | :48:48. | |
it currently exists, the complaints process is very lengthy for people. | :48:48. | :48:52. | |
It's too long, bureaucratic. And very often, when patients raised | :48:52. | :48:59. | |
concerns, they don't know where in the process their concern is. What | :48:59. | :49:03. | |
we try and encourage staff to do is, when a patient and a relative of | :49:04. | :49:07. | |
race is a concern, while it they are still in hospital, please | :49:07. | :49:10. | |
address the concern because the vast majority of patients want to | :49:10. | :49:17. | |
see an improvement, they want staff to see it as a learning opportunity, | :49:17. | :49:20. | |
an opportunity to have a conversation, not an end to a | :49:20. | :49:25. | |
conversation. Why are complaints rising? The government recognises | :49:25. | :49:35. | |
that we need to, we need to be quicker. We have made a commitment | :49:35. | :49:37. | |
to make sure all complaints are acknowledged within three days | :49:37. | :49:41. | |
because it's completely unacceptable when people have to | :49:41. | :49:42. | |
wait months to have an acknowledgement that something has | :49:42. | :49:47. | |
gone wrong. We're going to consult a how we can make that a reality, | :49:47. | :49:54. | |
to improve those few cases where things go badly wrong. Overall, in | :49:54. | :50:00. | |
terms of the report to address your question there, complaints to the | :50:00. | :50:08. | |
ombudsman directly, they are a relatively a new body, 2009, and it | :50:08. | :50:12. | |
only recently there has been or strict duty put in place for any | :50:12. | :50:18. | |
hospital, GP's surgery, engaged in a complaints procedure, now has a | :50:18. | :50:23. | |
duty not to flag up there is an ombudsman there, if at the end of | :50:23. | :50:26. | |
the complaints procedure, the patient is not happy with how it is | :50:26. | :50:32. | |
handled. Already, the NHS are making sure where there are | :50:32. | :50:39. | |
complaints, they are dealt with properly. Overall complaints going | :50:39. | :50:45. | |
up by 8% but if you break it down, 50% rise in in incidents with the | :50:45. | :50:51. | |
NHS did not acknowledge mistakes in care and a 42% rise in complaints | :50:51. | :51:00. | |
with inadequate remedy such as apologies being offered. Why? | :51:00. | :51:05. | |
completely unacceptable. Sometimes what happens, we do live in an | :51:05. | :51:09. | |
increasingly litigious age and is a lot more propensity for people to | :51:09. | :51:14. | |
sue. Some hospitals reaction to that is to say, if we acknowledge | :51:14. | :51:19. | |
something went wrong, we could be sued, but that's not the case. We | :51:19. | :51:22. | |
have to understand it's about looking after people properly and | :51:22. | :51:27. | |
recognising things have gone wrong and being open and honest about it. | :51:27. | :51:31. | |
Admitting something has gone wrong, acknowledging some body has been | :51:31. | :51:34. | |
treated badly and had a bad experience, doesn't mean there's | :51:34. | :51:40. | |
going to be a big financial bill associated with it. The British are | :51:40. | :51:46. | |
very proud of the NHS, it provides health care to everybody. | :51:46. | :51:52. | |
Regardless of means and so on. It's a state health service but it is a | :51:52. | :51:58. | |
massive state bureaucracy, a massive monolithic state but, -- | :51:58. | :52:08. | |
but I am off -- and it does not respond well to customer complaints. | :52:08. | :52:12. | |
The vast majority of patients and relatives are reluctant to complain. | :52:12. | :52:17. | |
I think we should have much more information to be given to every | :52:17. | :52:21. | |
patient going into hospital on how they make a complaint and where | :52:21. | :52:26. | |
they get the relevant information from. Information also on how to | :52:26. | :52:32. | |
support them up during the process. Have you complained to the NHS? | :52:32. | :52:40. | |
but because it's held in such high regard, I wonder whether a somehow | :52:40. | :52:44. | |
a culture has developed inside the NHS where is not enough self- | :52:44. | :52:49. | |
criticism. Anybody can hide behind the fact, as an institution, its | :52:49. | :52:55. | |
sober loved and trusted. I totally agree and, despite this, it's still | :52:55. | :53:00. | |
an institution the general public have love for. It's good that that | :53:00. | :53:06. | |
is still there. Are the cuts impacting? Is a bigger short cuts | :53:06. | :53:09. | |
are being taken, there is not enough time to sit and talk to | :53:09. | :53:19. | |
people and explain to them? We are seeing stories but NHS directors -- | :53:19. | :53:23. | |
NHS Direct is to be closed. Is up to be closed? I'm not aware of that | :53:23. | :53:30. | |
at the moment. We are told a large number of the call centres are to | :53:30. | :53:35. | |
close. It certainly been reviewed at the moment and it's an ongoing | :53:35. | :53:37. | |
process but a not aware any decision has been made at the | :53:38. | :53:45. | |
moment. The unions seem to think it is. Unions are very often jump on | :53:45. | :53:55. | |
:53:55. | :53:56. | ||
the consultation as something... a time when cuts are happening, | :53:56. | :54:00. | |
your Government's position is you have ring-fenced health spending, | :54:00. | :54:06. | |
but when cash is short, is that not likely to lead to more complaints? | :54:06. | :54:10. | |
There is no substitute for good care and the fact of the matter is, | :54:10. | :54:16. | |
it's about the relationship between a doctors and nurses and health | :54:16. | :54:19. | |
care professionals and their patients. That means acknowledging | :54:19. | :54:25. | |
things have gone wrong and learning from it in the future. The NHS is | :54:25. | :54:28. | |
getting �12.5 billion more from the government. It is good practice and | :54:29. | :54:32. | |
good health care to make sure we learn from mistakes and improve | :54:32. | :54:37. | |
care in the future. You're the only government minister we have one | :54:37. | :54:42. | |
this morning. What is your reaction to Lord McAlpine's statement? | :54:42. | :54:48. | |
was in the Guardian this morning? No, since then, make nuclear | :54:48. | :54:57. | |
vehemently that he believes he has nothing to do with this abuse story. | :54:57. | :55:04. | |
I think the main issue we discussed earlier on, Twitter, there are | :55:04. | :55:09. | |
libellous things can be said about people with no truth whatsoever in | :55:09. | :55:14. | |
a very spiteful way. When it comes down to it, we need to get away | :55:14. | :55:18. | |
from all that and stick with the facts. There are investigations | :55:18. | :55:25. | |
going on into allegations of abuse. Let them take place. And take it | :55:25. | :55:31. | |
from there. It's very irresponsible for people to using the internet | :55:31. | :55:35. | |
and a spiteful and ill-founded way. That's something we should learn | :55:35. | :55:39. | |
from for the future as well. Thank you for that. We'll keep an eye on | :55:39. | :55:44. | |
the complaint situation. Thank you for joining us. It's been a big | :55:44. | :55:49. | |
week in politics with a big story dominating. Yes, the trip to the | :55:49. | :55:55. | |
Jungle Beach is heavily in the week in 60 seconds. -- jungle features | :55:55. | :56:02. | |
heavily. The President defeats Mitt Romney in a close-run campaign to | :56:02. | :56:06. | |
retain the White House. Democrats rejoiced and Republicans were in | :56:06. | :56:14. | |
despair and many others couldn't believe how much money it cost. | :56:14. | :56:22. | |
Has gone to the jungle. Having evidently given up on the | :56:22. | :56:32. | |
:56:32. | :56:32. | ||
government game, I'm an MP, let me in, she has had the whip withdrawn. | :56:32. | :56:35. | |
The the that the Prime Minister sparred with Harriet Harman and we | :56:35. | :56:39. | |
had a parliamentary miracle. the first time in my career, I | :56:39. | :56:45. | |
wholeheartedly agree with her. Letters for treasure this moment. - | :56:45. | :56:50. | |
- let as the treasure this moment. David Cameron met Angela Merkel and | :56:50. | :56:56. | |
commentators wondered whether she wants them to sit closer while he | :56:56. | :57:06. | |
:57:06. | :57:06. | ||
explained he might have to leave early. | :57:06. | :57:11. | |
Coming up this week, we had the call the by-election. The elections | :57:11. | :57:19. | |
for police commissioners in England and Wales as well. The American | :57:19. | :57:25. | |
election, I had an argument in the studio last night with a historian | :57:25. | :57:32. | |
who said this was a watershed election. I'm not so sure. It isn't | :57:33. | :57:38. | |
a watershed election for the Democrats are but they are bought | :57:38. | :57:44. | |
the Republicans who on the wrong end of the American tomography. | :57:44. | :57:49. | |
They are in total disarray. Mitt Romney went too far to the right | :57:49. | :57:53. | |
and then tried to backtrack but not enough to get elected. Now the tea- | :57:53. | :57:58. | |
party are fighting. Goodness knows where we will go from here. It's | :57:58. | :58:02. | |
interesting talking to the but Westminster. Labour said this | :58:02. | :58:07. | |
election has not about the economy but a change in society. Both the | :58:07. | :58:09. | |
Tories and Labour are trying to drawing conclusions from their | :58:09. | :58:15. | |
position. Part of the problem is the Republicans have so little in | :58:15. | :58:21. | |
common with European conservative movements. I hope you enjoyed being | :58:21. | :58:25. | |
on the Daily Politics. And you will come back and see us on Friday. | :58:25. | :58:28. | |
That's all for today. Thanks to our guests. The One O'Clock News is | :58:29. | :58:32. | |
starting over on BBC One now. I'll be back on BBC One on Sunday with | :58:32. | :58:39. | |
the Sunday Politics. My guests will be the Secretary of State for | :58:39. | :58:44. |