08/11/2012 Daily Politics


08/11/2012

Jo Coburn and Andrew Neil are joined by Sir Christopher Meyer to discuss the fallout from the American elections as well as all of the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Radical changes

:00:45.:00:49.

afoot to our armed forces. The government wants to double the size

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of the part-time Territorial Army. Army reservists will also get a new

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name. The Defence Secretary says it is a fresh start. We will be asking

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him if it's defence on the cheap. Out with the old and in with the

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new. China gets a new President. John Simpson will be live from

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Beijing. Should we regulate the press or not? One Fleet Street hack

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tells us why it should be left alone. And would you eat pickled

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kangaroo? No? We're not talking about I'm a Celebrity. We'll be

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:01:30.:01:34.

discussing the art of ambassadorial You have got a thing about

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kangaroos! You're on about them yesterday. It stops today. No need

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:01:50.:01:50.

to go there. On behalf of the BBC, Irish like to apologise. All that

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in the next hour. And with us for the duration we've bagged Sir Socks.

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Yes, the former Ambassador to Washington Christopher Meyer is

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with us. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Great pleasure. Now,

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first today, let's talk about the day after the night before, if you

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get my drift - the US elections. Because President Obama has rather

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a lot in his in-tray, not least the small matter of a fiscal cliff

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:02:22.:02:22.

hanging over him. Scary! The liberal left in America are

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claiming this was a watershed election. There is a new democratic

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majority that is likely to be there for a long time and it is the

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triumph of social liberalism. True? Up to a point. It does show that

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the Republicans need to do something about the way in which

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they garner votes if they will ever win another presidential election.

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For the moments, the Democrats have a coalition of minorities. That has

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enabled them to prevail this time around for a bar rubble President,

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who was weakened by what has happened over the last four years.

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-- a far honourable president. Whether they will draw the right

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conclusions remains to be seen. A lot of them will take down and make

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it worse. Is there not the possibility of a continuing civil

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war with the TEA Party and the establishment? I have seen some

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Republicans - reminiscent of Labour in the 1980s - saying they have

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lost because they did not have a conservative enough candidate. That

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was until they had Michael Foot. Then they said, we lost because we

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were not left-wing enough. Mitt Romney was not Conservative. He was

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a moderate, they thought. Something may concentrate their minds and let

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commonsense break through. A President does not have to be re-

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elected Again. He is liberated. The mid-term elections are coming in

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2014. If he can pin it on these hardline republicans but it is they

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who are blocking legislation and tax of, and getting the deficit

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:04:23.:04:25.

down, then they will suffer in the mid- terms. -- and tax reform.

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understand it, if they cannot come to an agreement on tax and spend,

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taxes go up automatically and spending is cut automatically. It

:04:36.:04:45.
:04:46.:04:47.

could take about 5% at of the American GDP. -- out off. In

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Washington, they often go to these fiscal cliffs. Do they ever jump

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over a? A cannot remember a time when they have gone over. -- I

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cannot. My guess is that if they get to the end of the Year and have

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not done the deal, somehow or other they will shut down time until they

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do the deal. I would be really surprised if they went over the

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edge. It would be catastrophic and ruin what is left of the reputation

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of Congress. They are down in their approval ratings. Either they do it

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by 1st January or they will suspend it until late thrash it out.

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Whether they will want to do a compromise or not. Let me bring you

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on to something... We will discuss China later in the programme. Yet

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we suggest, we could already be seeing the beginnings of Mr Obama

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becoming a Pacific President in the first term and even more of that in

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the second term. He has no ethnic ties to Europe. His home state is

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Hawaii. He was brought up part of the time in Indonesia. He is trying

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to do a deal with Australia. We know he has no love for Europe or

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the United Kingdom and maybe even regards us as a backwater. I am not

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sure he has a love for any foreign country. I have never seen a burst

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of enthusiasm when he has met anyone from anywhere in the world.

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Gordon Brown had to meet him in the kitchen. What about the idea that

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America is being drawn inexorably to the Pacific? They have had

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fleets out there for years. As China becomes more powerful, they

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will pay more attention to that. It does not mean they are banned in

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Europe as they embrace the Pacific. Other than trade come up what do

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they want from Europe? -- other than trade, what do they want?

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are very scared. The eurozone crisis really concentrates people's

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minds in Washington. The anaemic recovery in the United States could

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be thrown off course by anything, including Europeans who do not get

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that acts together. Europe has not disappeared from out of sight and

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out of mind. If we're talking 25 years ago, not as important. NATO

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is still in Afghanistan and we are still quite important in the United

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States. -- have to the United States. Now you've probably seen

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lots in the news recently about ash trees and the disease that's

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spreading through them. The Government is due to publish an

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action plan tomorrow on how best to deal with the spread of so called

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ash dieback disease. However, ministers admit we could lose a

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significant number of trees. But why should we care about ash trees?

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And what will be the environmental and commercial impact of the

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disease? There are approximately 80 million ash trees across the UK and

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they are very important for wildlife. Ash trees support insects

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like the lesser stag beetle, hole- nesting birds including owls and

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woodpeckers. And they are an important habitat for flora such as

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bluebells and ramsoms. Dieback has been confirmed at 115 sites - woods

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in Norfolk, Kent, Suffolk and Essex are among the worst affected.

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Nearly 100,000 saplings have been destroyed in recent weeks, while

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the import and movement of trees has been banned leaving nursery

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stock virtually worthless. Joining me now from Nottingham is Austin

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Brady from the Woodland Trust. Isn't this the end of the ash tree

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in the UK? It could be. That is why we have been working really hard

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with the Forestry Commission and others to get a handle on how far

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the disease has spread and how much of a foothold it has got. If we are

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saying 115 sides, it is it possible to stop the spread? It is very

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unlikely we can stop it spreading. We need to focus on a clear action

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plan as to how we will respond, not just to this disease but other

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threats which are lurking on the borders. The ash tree is part of

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the very fabric of the British countryside. It makes our country

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what it is. We are passionate about protecting ancient woods and trees.

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The ash tree is really important to that. We're trying to do what we

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can to tackle the problem. What is the commercial impact of this

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disease? There is a commercial impact on people who manage

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woodland. Also an impact on people who supplied trees to the trade. It

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is about getting the supply chain smartened up. Do you think

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politicians are giving adequate protection to the countryside?

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There has maybe being a reliance on systems which are not fit for

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purpose. We need to move forward with solid actions. We have a

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project on the side -- on the starting blocks. We need the

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Government to close the funding back to put their money alongside

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ours to get the project running next week and not next year. With

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me now is Mary Creagh, who is the Shadow Environment Secretary, and

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the Conservative MP, George Freeman, whose mid-Norfolk constituency is

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one the worst affected areas. Has the Government done a good job in

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responding to the crisis? Secretary of State has taken a very

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strong grip. COBRA has been meeting. Yesterday there was a major

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national and international summit of leaders. There has been a

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nationwide survey of the disease. The truth is, this has been brewing

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for some time. There are questions to be asked about how we did not

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spot it coming earlier. It is about looking for it and making Britain

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secured. When you say the Government is on top of it, they

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did not respond to the crisis early enough to stop the first confirmed

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case in Buckinghamshire was back in March. This has been happening over

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the last decade. There are questions for all parties in

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government about how we make sure that biosecurity in Britain, in the

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context of global trade, is looked after. We still have trees coming

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in from China with soil on the routes. We need to take it as a

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wake-up call. Is it fair to say the Government was asleep on the job in

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response to this crisis? disease was found in March.

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Ministers were informed in April. Why did they not tell the public

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and would growers over the summer? We know this fungus fruits between

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June and October. The biggest fruiting time has happened. It

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likes wet conditions. The Government is doing a four des

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survey it over the last four days, desperately trying to survey an

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area the size of Wales. They're totally on the back foot. If the

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public had known earlier, we could have been out and about and the

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much further forward with the disease. What has happened in the

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last seven months? A lot has happened. The best option is not to

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spread panic. The best advice is to leave the trees standing. We have

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carried out a nationwide survey of this disease across the whole of

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the United Kingdom. This government has not been sitting on its hands.

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It is about making sure that this country becomes again the safe

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haven in terms of biosecurity. In Australia, they spray you before

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you get out of a plane. We need to make sure this country is once

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again a fortress in Europe. Nothing has been done on that scale. It was

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not done under Labour. The Labour government was told of the threat

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of the disease from ash trees and it was ignored. The letter went to

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Forestry Commission officials. The best advice was that the fungus was

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already widespread in the UK and could not be banned under the EU or

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World Trade Association rules. It was only discovered in February,

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2010. The issue is that the Forestry Commission budget has been

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capped to 36 million and 500 staff have already gone. Do we have the

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boots on the ground to tackle this? How many people in the department

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are experts in dealing with this? am not in DEFRA so I could not tell

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you. Just one person is left in DEFRA, who is a plant specialist

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and expert, who is able to do this sort of thing. You have seen from

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the speed and significant of response Houses see the Government

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has taken it and scientists have taken it. -- how seriously the

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Government. Will many go into them compensate people question we need

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to take the very best scientific advice. Should there be

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:15:07.:15:07.

compensation. That are worthless? This is not the time for that. --

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this disease has spread at 30 kilometres an hour. How do we

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protect the British trees, British growers and the British forestry

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industry and take this opportunity to reinforce British biosecurity?

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We do not want this to happen with other species? Should there be

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compensation? That is further down the line. We are back to the

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arguments about the science. Should the Government have told people.

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People planted stuff over the spring and summer and have been

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planting seeds. Those seeds are worthless. That would have reduced

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the number of saplings that were planted and, actually, I would have

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meant that nurseries would not have been ruined from a business

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perspective. This is not the time at which people are importing trees.

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The best advice is to keep the mature trees there. When the

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industry flat this with the last government, it carried on importing.

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There are issues about how we handle these diseases and make sure

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:16:28.:16:30.

that Britain is a strong global Congratulations to endured a

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crewman on his November moustache. Now, the Chinese President has

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opened the Communist Party congress that begins a once-in-a-decade

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power transfer in the country. I'm joined from Beijing by the BBC's

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World Affairs Editor John Simpson. There is always a periodic changing

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of the Guardian Beijing. Tell us the significance of this one.

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:17:01.:17:02.

Andrew, the way it works, each time a new leadership comes clanking in,

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they have all got the Grecian 2000, they all look identical, but each

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time there is a new leadership, it seems to be that much more, I hate

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to use the word liberal, because they are not very liberal, but a

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little less controlling, a little less kind of delving into the

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details of people's private lives. That's the way that China has been.

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As it has grown richer, it has become more difficult really, to

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keep the lid on people. The lid is still there but it's not quite a

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jammed on as much as it used to be. And I'm assuming the new leadership

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will just be part of that process. They won't be terribly exciting

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people although, as it happens, Xi Jinping, the new leader, who will

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be President early next year, is quite interesting. His wife is a

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folk singer, a crossover folks go, -- Stokes singer, and that gives it

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:18:21.:18:21.

a certain interest. -- folk singer. He himself is probably a little bit

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less appetite than his predecessor have been. But not much more than

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that. The Chinese economy has been slowing down. Still growing hugely

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compared to western levels of growth, but slowing down by its own

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standards. Is that causing fear in the ruling elite? They have a pact

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with the public in China that we will give you the growth but you

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let us run the place. If they don't give them the growth, what happens?

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Absolutely, absolutely. The starkest thing I have heard since I

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have been here, I was talking to somebody pretty well plugged in, a

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Chinese figure, and he told me that he had been talking to a couple of

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senior party people who said the other day to him they wondered

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whether the Chinese Communist Party would still be around to celebrate

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its centenary. The centenary comes in only nine years' time, before

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the term of this ten-year regime. So you can see, within the system,

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there is a lot of anxieties and they can see it clearly more than

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anybody else can, and they know there are so much anger about

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corruption in society, generally, so much anger about the way some

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parts of the economy are run and the only way out of that is simply

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to dole out banknotes and say to people, look, you are three times

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richer than 10 years ago, what is the fuss about? Whether that will

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continue in the next 10 years is very doubtful and that's why they

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are nervous. A re-elected President in the United States. Now a new

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President in China. Are we getting to the stage in the 21st century

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with the new President in China is as important as the President in

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Washington? Well, I think if you had to kind of sum up the likely

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influences on the lives of ordinary people in Britain, say, of the two

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things, I don't think you would find their lives were much affected

:20:45.:20:52.

as to whether it was Mitt Romney or Barack Obama. The difference

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between them is fairly, fairly slight, but here, if things go

:20:56.:21:00.

wrong in China, it will affect everybody in Britain. In one way or

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another, it's going to damage us. And, of course, conversely, if they

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can pull a rabbit out of the hat, sorted out, I find it impossible to

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think they can, but if they did, indeed, our lives would be made

:21:19.:21:25.

easier. I'm not talking about political power or influence, but

:21:25.:21:30.

just in terms of the actual effect on your pocket and my pocket. I

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think China gets the vote. Very interesting. Thank you for

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interesting live from Beijing. So has Chinese Presidential handover

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gripped the streets of London? Here's our Adam.

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Welcome to Chinatown in London. There are millions of people who

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know their Xi Jinpings from their Hu Jintaos. Let's find out. Have

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you been following the leadership challenge in China? No. To think we

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should be following it? The as much as the Americans, sure. You know

:22:11.:22:16.

who won the American election, don't you? Yes. I don't know the

:22:16.:22:21.

Chinese one, and that's deplorable, isn't it? They want to bring

:22:21.:22:27.

Chinese into St -- industry into Europe through Ireland. I think

:22:27.:22:33.

they're quite powerful. Do you know how big the Chinese economy is?

:22:33.:22:42.

Pretty big. I was after a number. don't know. 3.5 trillion pounds.

:22:42.:22:47.

That is pretty big. Can you tell us anything about who is going to be

:22:47.:22:57.

the new President? Barack Obama. China! Your home country.

:22:57.:23:03.

Jinping. They may be changing the number on the committee from nine

:23:03.:23:09.

to seven. Good knowledge. I excite about the new Chinese President?

:23:09.:23:19.
:23:19.:23:20.

Yes. Xi Jinping. What kind of guy is he? A normal Chinese guy.

:23:20.:23:29.

pronunciation is not very good. you pronounced it very good.

:23:29.:23:34.

was our new Chinese Correspondent. We have now sent Adam on a very

:23:34.:23:38.

slow boat to China! Let's speak to somebody who knows what they're

:23:38.:23:42.

talking about on this matter. And joining us now is the Australian MP

:23:42.:23:45.

Michael Danby, who is the chairman of his country's Foreign Affairs,

:23:45.:23:47.

Defence and Trade Committee. China is looming ever larger in

:23:47.:23:54.

Australia's foreign policy. Thank you for joining us. Will we notice

:23:54.:23:58.

consequences as a result of this change of leadership?

:23:58.:24:04.

immediately but Xi Jinping is the representative of the princeling

:24:04.:24:09.

inspection, a bit more confident with power than the previous

:24:09.:24:16.

bureaucrats previously. Explain what you mean by princelings?

:24:16.:24:23.

sons and daughters of the Communist aristocracy. They were originally

:24:23.:24:29.

taken over China in 1949. The do We have any idea what this new leader

:24:29.:24:35.

wants to do? Do we have a sense of where he wants to take the country?

:24:35.:24:40.

Become more repressive? I think the Chinese leadership are very wise.

:24:41.:24:45.

Whatever form they come in. They know China is a trading country.

:24:45.:24:49.

They had taken 300 million people out of poverty by doing a lot of

:24:49.:24:56.

international trade and no one can afford to get involved in the

:24:56.:24:59.

conflict in a very profound sense. You must never do to them what

:24:59.:25:06.

happened to Japan in the late 1930s, keeping energy back from them etc.

:25:06.:25:12.

Provoking them. But they are very aware that they need trade with the

:25:12.:25:18.

West. They are aware they need to work with the Americans. The

:25:18.:25:22.

Americans owe them a lot of money, but the Chinese don't want to press

:25:22.:25:26.

it too hard because they still want to sell things. If you own the Bank

:25:26.:25:31.

of pound, they've got you but if you owe the bank a million pounds,

:25:31.:25:37.

then they owe you. China are looming ever-larger in Australian

:25:37.:25:41.

foreign policy and pushing you closer to the Americans. Ironic,

:25:41.:25:46.

isn't it? The South East Asian countries feel that, too. The

:25:46.:25:50.

Chinese have been unsubtle in their aggressive rhetoric, haven't done

:25:50.:25:56.

so much about it recently with the South China Seas, so, ironically,

:25:56.:25:59.

that Philippines kicked out the Americans 10 years ago and are now

:25:59.:26:05.

asking them to come back and re- establish naval facilities there.

:26:05.:26:08.

It's a part of the world which, although historically for colonial

:26:08.:26:13.

reasons, we have the knowledge. But it's a part of the world where

:26:13.:26:19.

neither Britain nor continental Europe brings any assets or

:26:19.:26:23.

advantages to the Americans or the Australians. You bring assets of

:26:23.:26:28.

advantage to the Chinese. Germans in particular, the UK less

:26:28.:26:32.

so, are very big trading partners with the People's Republic of China.

:26:32.:26:38.

We actually have quite a significant role collectively and

:26:38.:26:43.

individually to play with a Chinese and, given that, there is a

:26:43.:26:50.

significance to us from the point of view of the Americans and

:26:50.:26:55.

neighbours to China. The thing I find interesting about China, it's

:26:55.:26:59.

in a classic situation you always find in Russia, economic

:26:59.:27:02.

development has gone way ahead of political development so how do you

:27:02.:27:07.

bring the two things into Cink without the top blowing off too

:27:07.:27:16.

. They don't have an answer to that any more than we do. Let me go back

:27:16.:27:21.

to Australia. In northern Australia at the moment, there are US forces

:27:21.:27:28.

training. It's not an official base, I don't think. It's not like

:27:28.:27:35.

American bases in the UK, or Britain has bases in Cyprus but, it

:27:35.:27:40.

is training nonetheless. Is there a consensus in Australia over this or

:27:40.:27:46.

is it a matter of argument that an alliance with America is the best

:27:46.:27:52.

safety from an aggressive China? Barack Obama made the announcement

:27:52.:27:57.

in Canberra. It has bipartisan support and actually it was like

:27:57.:28:02.

witnessing the Munro document being and unseat for the first time. I

:28:02.:28:04.

think the Americans are pretty ensconced in the world.

:28:04.:28:07.

Particularly in our area of the world and we should be happy with

:28:07.:28:13.

that. The real danger not just for Europe, Australia, his American

:28:13.:28:19.

withdrawal. After their experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan, an

:28:19.:28:23.

American withdrawal from the world would be the worst thing. Is there

:28:23.:28:29.

a fear of China in Australia? lots of people at business

:28:29.:28:33.

relationships. We can do both democracy at the same time,

:28:33.:28:37.

maintain friendships with all of the advanced countries of east Asia,

:28:37.:28:42.

Europe, USA, democratic countries but still have a good commercial

:28:42.:28:48.

relationships. They want our steel, iron ore, energy, Cole. It's a

:28:48.:28:53.

third cheaper than it perhaps be transported from Brazil. But also

:28:53.:28:56.

makes you are rich target as well. Australian defence spending is

:28:56.:29:00.

still pretty robust and like in Europe and I assume you're not

:29:00.:29:05.

spending all this money to defend yourself from New Zealand? Probably

:29:05.:29:13.

true but wise caution into the future would mean, according to an

:29:13.:29:17.

hour passed Defence white paper, we will have links with British crews

:29:17.:29:21.

by the way or not being employed here at the moment, and we will be

:29:21.:29:25.

buying quite a few of those American Joint Strike fighters like

:29:25.:29:31.

Britain will be. Was Australia happy with the Chinese and Japanese

:29:31.:29:41.
:29:41.:29:42.

war games in the South China Seas? No, we are pretty unhappy with it.

:29:42.:29:49.

Japan and America had war games? The Japanese American war games in

:29:49.:29:54.

the eerie with these two little bits of rock are in dispute.

:29:54.:29:59.

underneath those lie very rich oil resources. China is energy

:29:59.:30:02.

dependent and that's why they are very sensitive, along with a long

:30:02.:30:08.

history of, remembering 55 Days at Peking, the famous film. Charlton

:30:08.:30:14.

Heston. Western colonialism us. We have to be careful we don't do that.

:30:14.:30:18.

How long before American and Australian forces are involved in

:30:18.:30:23.

war games? We played together all the time. We are serving with you

:30:23.:30:28.

in Afghanistan, we lost 40 people. I meant Australian and American war

:30:28.:30:32.

games in the Pacific region. They happen all the time. Northern

:30:32.:30:36.

Australia, East and Australia. Thank you for being here. Good to

:30:36.:30:46.
:30:46.:30:53.

Last week we got Charlotte Harris has dug she discussed her fell with

:30:53.:30:58.

Neil Wallace. He is deputy editor of the News of the World and it got

:30:58.:31:06.

a bit heated. Are you planning to actually screen as partial and

:31:06.:31:09.

distorted a piece like that about the case against statutory

:31:10.:31:18.

regulation? Are you going to broadcast a distorted partisan

:31:18.:31:25.

piece like we have just seen? did not think he had got the

:31:25.:31:30.

concept of that. To help him understand, he is his take on how

:31:30.:31:36.

he thinks the pressured operate. Britain has enjoyed press freedom

:31:36.:31:43.

for 317 years. It was finally won from that lot in 6095. Many have

:31:44.:31:50.

literally died to protect it ever since. Why are so many people

:31:50.:31:55.

wanting to give it away? What is press freedom? Not the right to

:31:55.:32:03.

hack phones, a black medical records and wrongly rep -- wreck

:32:03.:32:09.

reputations. The UK already has laws against bad - a libel laws,

:32:09.:32:16.

privacy laws and criminal laws. -- against that. Press freedom it is

:32:16.:32:20.

the right to publicly demand answers to inconvenient questions

:32:20.:32:27.

that those in power do not want aired. That is why an unsavoury

:32:27.:32:29.

alliance of celebrities, politicians and lawyers are trying

:32:29.:32:34.

to con you into giving it up. They call for legally controlled

:32:34.:32:39.

statutory regulation of the media while claiming that some have the

:32:39.:32:46.

press can still remain independent. -- somehow. It is simply a life.

:32:46.:32:53.

The word state control and free press cannot live in the same

:32:53.:32:55.

sentence. If it happened, politicians would get depressed

:32:55.:33:00.

they want and not the press they deserved. Oppress they can control.

:33:00.:33:07.

In Greece, the journalist was arrested. -- a press they can

:33:07.:33:11.

control. In France, successive presidents were able to use tax

:33:11.:33:16.

pair managed to pay for mistresses and secret children pulled up here

:33:16.:33:24.

we have ongoing for NP expenses scandals. -- secret children.

:33:24.:33:30.

Statutory regulation is the thin end of the wedge. When in place,

:33:30.:33:36.

politicians will be freed to amend, change, tweak, clarify, fix the

:33:36.:33:41.

press laws to silence the questions they do not want to answer. A free

:33:42.:33:47.

press does make mistakes. It gets things wrong, including behaviour.

:33:47.:33:53.

That can hurt. The alternative is worse. To paraphrase, democracy is

:33:53.:33:58.

the worst form of government, until you consider the others. It is the

:33:58.:34:06.

same as self-regulation and press freedom. Let them steal it at your

:34:06.:34:16.
:34:16.:34:17.

peril. We're also joined by Sir Christopher Meyer. And so has

:34:17.:34:23.

Charlotte Harris. How do you answer the complaint that if we go to

:34:23.:34:29.

statutory regulation, which or newspapers will be enforced to

:34:29.:34:34.

subscribe to by law, you have state licensing of publishing? Quite

:34:34.:34:39.

easily. The way the argument has been framed has been very

:34:39.:34:43.

convenient. That is not simply a situation where you have a free

:34:43.:34:49.

press versus state regulation. That is not state regulation. It is an

:34:49.:34:53.

independent regulator. The only part of government control in

:34:53.:34:58.

theirs is that the Government comes in and recognises the authority of

:34:58.:35:05.

the body. On one hand, you have a self-serving job for boys - self

:35:05.:35:10.

regulation - which is the same as it was before off. You will need a

:35:10.:35:14.

state licence to publish. All you need is the Government having the

:35:14.:35:22.

same enabling factor as it has Ofcom, the ASA and the judiciary.

:35:22.:35:27.

If I am a newspaper publisher and I say, I do not want to be part of

:35:27.:35:32.

this operation but it is the law of the land, I cannot publish that

:35:32.:35:37.

newspaper, correct? Not necessarily. It means you are in a position

:35:37.:35:44.

where you have to sign up to this. If you do not want to sign up to it,

:35:44.:35:48.

then you are in a position where you are not covered. If you look at

:35:48.:35:53.

the different models... Of the different incentives. Am I still

:35:53.:35:59.

allowed to publish? Everyone is allowed to publish. Whether or not

:35:59.:36:04.

you are in a position... Wine with newspapers signed up if they do not

:36:04.:36:09.

have to? They would have to sign up. If they do not sign up, you cannot

:36:09.:36:16.

publish was up it depends on the model. We do not know. -- you

:36:16.:36:22.

cannot publish. You are making it overly simplistic. No one is

:36:22.:36:30.

suggesting that. I want to start a newspaper tomorrow. I would be

:36:30.:36:34.

economically mad to do so but supposing I am. I do not want

:36:35.:36:41.

anything to do with your state regulation. I am an anarchist

:36:41.:36:43.

publisher. Am I still allowed to publish the newspaper if I do not

:36:43.:36:49.

join? There is no suggestion you would not be allowed to publish.

:36:49.:36:53.

You would also have to be accountable. The Irish model is a

:36:53.:36:59.

model where I understand a lot of people are looking at. The air is a

:36:59.:37:06.

lot of thinking to be done on this. There are lots of models. -- ed

:37:06.:37:13.

there is a lot of thinking. We in the publishing media has had

:37:13.:37:18.

decades to put our houses in order. We have had decades to put it right

:37:18.:37:24.

and decades of abuse. It has culminated in the hacking business

:37:24.:37:29.

at News International. There is no escape for us. We should have put

:37:29.:37:36.

our own house in order years ago. You even had the editor of the

:37:36.:37:41.

daily Melk in charge of standards. I am actually quite happy for

:37:41.:37:48.

Charlotte to continue talking. -- the Daily Mail. The answer is, you

:37:48.:37:54.

are right, you were a journalist. Journalists get things wrong.

:37:54.:37:59.

Getting things wrong is simply part of what happens in life. The

:37:59.:38:04.

hacking was covered by the criminal law. We have a libel laws and

:38:04.:38:11.

privacy laws. We have something like 40 odd statutes that can

:38:11.:38:17.

impinge upon newspapers. I will help you with that frog in your

:38:17.:38:23.

throat by interrupting you. You cannot say that we, as an industry,

:38:23.:38:33.
:38:33.:38:33.

have put our house in order. Sorry, I'm just trying to clear my throat.

:38:33.:38:38.

No one is suggesting the status quo. You look at what the industry has

:38:38.:38:42.

done. They have recognised a problem and come up with a series

:38:43.:38:51.

of proposals that, actually, if the statutory regulation lobby would

:38:51.:38:55.

actually part that their obsession with getting the Government to

:38:55.:39:01.

control this, they would find a lot of this applies to what we are

:39:01.:39:09.

talking about. Black and Hunt in that proposal, it really is the

:39:09.:39:17.

problem and not the solution. are referring to Lord Black...

:39:18.:39:27.

black and Lord Hunt. It is a non statutory regulation. The answer to

:39:27.:39:31.

that is you cannot have industry figures deciding who their chairmen

:39:31.:39:34.

will be from a self regulatory point of view because you will not

:39:34.:39:40.

have independence. Your figures do not suggest that the stop if you

:39:40.:39:45.

read the proposals, they do not suggest that at all. -- suggest

:39:45.:39:52.

that. It is very clear there are no Sevinc editors. There are former

:39:52.:39:59.

industry figures. -- serving editors. The majority are late

:40:00.:40:04.

editors. The main editor is a non industry figure. He is chosen in

:40:04.:40:10.

the same way as a senior NGO figure is chosen - independently. All of

:40:10.:40:15.

these things are answered. You have an obsession with getting the state

:40:15.:40:25.
:40:25.:40:29.

to regulate. To end 317 years of press freedom and it is madness. It

:40:29.:40:34.

is your proposal. If you really cared about free press, or what I

:40:34.:40:39.

would like to note is, at what point would you say there should be

:40:39.:40:44.

some cap on media ownership? Why are you not talking about

:40:44.:40:52.

plurality? That is a different issue. I'm not sure it is. It is

:40:52.:40:55.

interesting that you want to broaden it into that. You seem to

:40:55.:41:04.

be on a campaign against the media. Why was the PCC useless? Can I

:41:04.:41:09.

bring the wisdom of Solomon into this. It was not useless and that

:41:09.:41:13.

that it was not was be tested by the thousands of people who came

:41:13.:41:18.

every year to get remedies. It did not stop his colleagues in the

:41:18.:41:23.

tabloids to -- behaving disgracefully. I'm talking bag

:41:23.:41:29.

relentless intrusion into people's lives that went unregulated by the

:41:29.:41:35.

PP -- the PCC. What did you do about it? A hell of a lot about it.

:41:35.:41:39.

All you have to do is read the witness statements, put him by

:41:39.:41:46.

their former director of the PCC, Stephen Abel. -- put in by the

:41:46.:41:53.

former director. My point is very brief. If I was chairman, there is

:41:53.:41:57.

a bunch of stuff I would do to strengthen it. A new statute is not

:41:57.:42:03.

the answer. All the statues have been spelled out already. A statute

:42:03.:42:08.

would not have dealt with phone hacking. Above all, what it will

:42:08.:42:14.

not do is, it is all very well in bringing in the traditional media

:42:14.:42:17.

into the system that you have for the internet publishers and fair.

:42:17.:42:24.

That is what it does not deal with. I need to come to you for equal

:42:24.:42:29.

time. It is not statutory regulation will start I am trying

:42:29.:42:34.

to give you time to get your case across. -- statutory regulation.

:42:34.:42:39.

What is the answer about the rules to want to be followed are not

:42:39.:42:45.

covered by the new media? It is important that we worked towards

:42:45.:42:50.

global understanding. You asked me to answer at it and this is what I

:42:50.:43:00.
:43:00.:43:00.

am saying. Of course there will be a problem in terms off what we have

:43:00.:43:02.

in eight global communication environment. It does not mean what

:43:02.:43:08.

you say is right. We will just continue to let people's lives be

:43:08.:43:15.

intruded. The people who are the winners here, with the PCC plus,

:43:15.:43:19.

are the industry. Actually not all journalists, who I think would like

:43:19.:43:26.

to be free from the proprietors. It is not statutory regulations. You

:43:26.:43:33.

have already said to me and accuse me of having an attack on the media

:43:33.:43:38.

industry. -- accused me. It is not what we are looking for in terms of

:43:38.:43:42.

a statutory underpinning. It is about freedom and transparency so

:43:42.:43:46.

we can live in a democracy and not be in a position where you framed

:43:46.:43:55.

the argument as statute against Free Press. No one is saying that.

:43:55.:44:05.
:44:05.:44:08.

We should have a third round. Spinach and mushroom tart, followed

:44:08.:44:11.

by English venison, and then a traditional German cake for pudding.

:44:11.:44:13.

That was the menu for David Cameron's little supper with

:44:13.:44:16.

Chancellor Angela Merkel last night. The State Dinner is often a vital

:44:16.:44:18.

opportunity to negotiate seemingly unpalatable matters, from one

:44:18.:44:21.

nation to another. In this case, ultimatums over just who exactly is

:44:21.:44:25.

going to pick up the EU tab. As we can see, from last night's Downing

:44:25.:44:27.

Street shindig, it wasn't guaranteed to cure Mrs Merkel's

:44:27.:44:33.

indigestion. Experience tells me that if someone confronts you with

:44:33.:44:39.

an ultimatum, he may be confronted with another one. If you have 27th

:44:39.:44:42.

interests in the European Union that we want to reconcile, it is

:44:42.:44:50.

not a great idea to start with an adulteration. -- ultimatum. The

:44:50.:44:55.

need to find a common foundation. The more we have the less able we

:44:55.:45:02.

will be to find agreement. There were not share in this discussion.

:45:02.:45:07.

-- I will not share. Oh, to be a fly on the wall at that dinner

:45:07.:45:10.

party! Christopher Meyer has had a ringside seat at many of these

:45:10.:45:13.

events. And, in researching his new book on the subject, Matthew Parris

:45:13.:45:16.

has heard more anecdotes about them than you've had. Well, small, round,

:45:16.:45:18.

ambassadorial chocolates. Anyway, before we discuss the matter, we've

:45:18.:45:28.
:45:28.:45:30.

Which UK delicacy, served at the British embassy in Paris, failed to

:45:30.:45:34.

win over the French? Spotted dick. Toad in the hole. Jelly. Bubble and

:45:34.:45:42.

squeek. Do have a guess. Which would fail to win over the French?

:45:42.:45:50.

I would say all of them up. Spotted dick. No, you are both wrong. It

:45:50.:45:58.

actually jelly. The lady ambassador could never get the consistency

:45:58.:46:07.

right. Not that she made it, anyway. OK, number two. According to Chris

:46:07.:46:10.

Patten, what did the Chinese serve at a dinner for the World Wildlife

:46:10.:46:19.

Fund? Oh dear. Grilled marmoset. Bears' paws. Stewed dolphin. Puffin.

:46:19.:46:29.
:46:29.:46:30.

I can't imagine any of those went down well at literally. I will go

:46:30.:46:38.

for bear's paws. Well done, it is that. Can you imagine the reaction?

:46:38.:46:43.

Maybe they didn't recognise them. Maybe this one will suit you more.

:46:43.:46:45.

How many bottles are kept in the Government's special wine cellar

:46:45.:46:52.

near Whitehall? 10,000. 40,000. 400,000. Not known. 400,000. 40,000

:46:52.:47:01.

for that not as many as you would think. A-night! Concentrate, please.

:47:01.:47:03.

What present did John Major receive from the President of Turkmenistan?

:47:04.:47:06.

200 large yellow water melons. A pregnant camel. A race-horse. A

:47:06.:47:12.

dancing bear. A racehorse. watermelons were there to pay the

:47:12.:47:17.

railway guards who had brought the racecourse -- racecourse to Moscow.

:47:17.:47:24.

Yes, they had to use that to get their fair back. -- race course.

:47:24.:47:30.

The sad thing is there were armed bandits who stole many of the

:47:30.:47:35.

watermelons. They tried to steal the horse, so they stole the

:47:35.:47:40.

watermelons instead. What was John Major's reaction? Absolutely

:47:40.:47:47.

furious. What can you do in these situations? His reaction to getting

:47:47.:47:51.

the horse? He was delighted. Astonished. The President gave him

:47:51.:48:00.

a carpet with his own face embroidered on to it. So John Major

:48:00.:48:04.

told me you knew where to wipe your feet and then he was presented with

:48:04.:48:09.

a picture of a horse and realised he was going to get an actual horse.

:48:09.:48:16.

It sounds like Harry Potter. lives in north Wales. As David

:48:16.:48:23.

Cameron been riding? What about your favoured ambassadorial dinner?

:48:23.:48:31.

My favourite was one I went to Paris with Geoffrey Howe and he was

:48:31.:48:35.

entertained by the French minister, who was a gourmet of the most

:48:35.:48:41.

exquisite kind, wonderful food was supplied and superb wine. We would

:48:41.:48:46.

eat in a chateau outside Barrett -- Paris and then fly back to London.

:48:47.:48:51.

And then Geoffrey would say, what did we discuss? And none of us

:48:51.:48:59.

could remember. What happens if you're a fussy eater? If you had to

:48:59.:49:06.

deal with these situations? I once had an ambassador whose wife, she

:49:06.:49:11.

didn't like what she was drinking and eating, and would put it on my

:49:11.:49:18.

plate and switch glasses. The food? Yes. What is your favourite

:49:18.:49:23.

anecdote? Ambassador wides will conduct proxy wars on behalf of

:49:23.:49:28.

their husbands and was almost wives until recently, very few female

:49:28.:49:35.

ambassadors, and there was a dinner by the French ambassador and there

:49:35.:49:38.

was a diplomatic war going on but in Britain and France and the

:49:38.:49:42.

British ambassador said to her French hostess, marvellous dinner,

:49:42.:49:47.

my dear, such a shame about the souffle. And the two women never

:49:47.:49:51.

spoke after that and neither did the husbands. In terms of the

:49:51.:49:55.

business done at these dinners, Angela Merkel and David Cameron may

:49:55.:49:59.

or may not have taught at great depth about the Budget but they are

:50:00.:50:06.

important, aren't they? Yes, you can do serious business if you have

:50:06.:50:09.

an interpreter. You can quickly stuff through down your throat so

:50:09.:50:15.

you don't have to speak to the opposite number, spitting on them

:50:15.:50:21.

up. That's the problem you have in the USA way you speak the same

:50:21.:50:25.

language and have to read and speak at the same time. With the Germans,

:50:25.:50:29.

there is a respectable time to eat and get your point over. In terms

:50:30.:50:34.

of leaders you have dealt with and entertained, who is good around the

:50:34.:50:39.

dinner table in terms of talking politics? You have really floored

:50:39.:50:46.

me with that one. Does it make a difference, Christopher, if a

:50:46.:50:52.

minister is particularly good, sociable, hospitable? Does it alter

:50:52.:50:57.

the flow of international relations or not? It is the icing on the cake.

:50:57.:51:02.

The only thing which makes it float is that you have a convergence of

:51:02.:51:07.

hard interests. Soft sentiment and soft food won't do it but it's a

:51:07.:51:17.
:51:17.:51:17.

kind of lubricant. You obviously enjoyed quite a few. He would give

:51:17.:51:22.

us beautiful wine. I dunno how many points we gave away to the French

:51:22.:51:26.

in the politics as a result of the excellent support. Thank you very

:51:26.:51:31.

much indeed. Now how do you keep an effective military force at a time

:51:31.:51:34.

when the Army is having its strength cut by 20,000 to just

:51:34.:51:36.

82,000 regulars? Well, the Defence Secretary Philip Hammond has this

:51:36.:51:39.

morning set out plans to boost the role of reservists in future

:51:39.:51:42.

deployments. He wants to double the size of the Territorial Army from

:51:42.:51:46.

15,000 to 30,000. And he says the changes would mark a radical shift

:51:46.:51:51.

in the way the TA helps deliver the nation's security. Here's what he

:51:51.:52:01.
:52:01.:52:01.

had to say earlier. Under our proposals with a balanced defence

:52:01.:52:06.

budget and an additional �1.8 billion of investment, about

:52:06.:52:10.

reserve forces of the future will be better trained, better-equipped,

:52:10.:52:15.

and better resourced than ever before. Collectively, they will

:52:15.:52:19.

take on greater responsibility and benefit from greater reward and

:52:19.:52:24.

greater respect. In the years to come, we will have Army, Navy and

:52:24.:52:29.

Royal Marines and the Royal Box Hilary if force sitting at the very

:52:29.:52:33.

heart of the defence of our nation. Reserve forces of which we can be

:52:34.:52:39.

proud, supported by employers to whom it we will owe a deep debt a

:52:39.:52:43.

national gratitude. And from the commons to our studio. The Defence

:52:43.:52:45.

Secretary, Phillip Hammond is with us now. And John Cridland, the

:52:46.:52:47.

Director General of the Confederation of British Industry

:52:48.:52:54.

is also here. Welcome to both of you. You're having to boost the

:52:54.:52:59.

role of army reservists as a result of cuts to the armed forces.

:52:59.:53:02.

have to reduce the size of the regular army as part of the process

:53:02.:53:07.

of dealing with this fitted billion pounds black hole that we inherited

:53:07.:53:11.

in the defence budget. We've had to go up some capabilities we would

:53:11.:53:15.

have preferred to have kept, accept smaller armed forces to protect the

:53:15.:53:22.

equipment budget, so those armed forces will be properly equipped,

:53:22.:53:25.

protected for the job that we want them to do. And by increasing the

:53:25.:53:30.

reserves, that's the way we buy back capability we otherwise might

:53:30.:53:35.

have lost from having smaller numbers of forces. You do need that

:53:35.:53:38.

capability clearly and will fuel the accusation you're doing it on

:53:38.:53:43.

the cheap. It's an assertion, state and, at the heart of what we're

:53:43.:53:47.

doing. The reserves will no longer be something peripheral, but at the

:53:47.:53:53.

very heart of the armed forces, essential to its functioning and

:53:53.:53:59.

integrated with it in a way that emphasises that essential role.

:53:59.:54:01.

will fuel the accusation you're doing it on the tube, they are not

:54:01.:54:04.

going to be there in the same capacity in terms of the amount of

:54:04.:54:08.

time they can commit, so how much training will be available to these

:54:08.:54:13.

people when they are sent off to Afghanistan for example? First of

:54:13.:54:16.

all they will do basic training and once they had done that in the army

:54:16.:54:20.

reserves, they will need to do 40 days a year of continuing training

:54:20.:54:25.

but anybody who will be deployed into an operation will be called up

:54:25.:54:29.

months in advance of their deployment and given mission

:54:29.:54:31.

specific training. I want to correct something else, an

:54:31.:54:37.

impression that this is somehow doing the army on the cheap. All of

:54:37.:54:41.

our English-speaking allies, the Americans, Australians, Canadians,

:54:41.:54:45.

have a much larger proportion of reserve forces in their total force

:54:45.:54:49.

mix than we do. The Americans in Afghanistan have a larger

:54:49.:54:53.

percentage of national guardsmen in the deployed force than we do

:54:53.:54:56.

Territorial Army soldiers, so we are moving back to something more

:54:56.:55:00.

like the norm across our major allies and something more like our

:55:00.:55:06.

historic position where, if you go back to 20 years, we had 72,000

:55:06.:55:10.

Territorial Army soldiers. There will be a knock-on effect for

:55:10.:55:13.

employers if you're asking people to increase the time they're going

:55:13.:55:17.

to have to give to be called up, it will have a knock-on effect on

:55:17.:55:21.

employers. Are you happy about the fact the Government would increase

:55:21.:55:26.

the number of days for reservists? I think this is the right thing for

:55:26.:55:32.

the Government to do. Is it good for business? It's a huge change

:55:32.:55:35.

which will require a change in partnership between the MoD and the

:55:35.:55:39.

business community. We shouldn't think this is tweaking the numbers

:55:39.:55:41.

on the existing relationship which exists between some employers and

:55:41.:55:47.

the MoD. This will then be many more employers begin to release

:55:47.:55:51.

people more regularly for longer periods. But that's a huge pressure.

:55:51.:55:56.

How is it double? It used to working years gone by and it works

:55:56.:56:02.

in America and other countries. For small employers, it will be the

:56:02.:56:05.

equivalent of managing maternity leave, sufficient notice, adequate

:56:05.:56:10.

cover, consequences when people come back. We know how challenging

:56:10.:56:15.

employers find covering maternity cover, although they fully support

:56:15.:56:20.

women having a year off. Can you see a small empire faced with a

:56:20.:56:24.

reserve has come in for a job saying, I'm going daft hat and you

:56:24.:56:29.

will lead and 40 days of, and then not being taken on on that basis.

:56:29.:56:33.

If we get it wrong, that's where we will end up. What do we need to do

:56:33.:56:39.

to get it right? Compensation for employers? I'm suggesting a public

:56:39.:56:45.

and private agreement, to model this with employers are equal

:56:45.:56:50.

partners at the table. If they are listened to and can help to design

:56:50.:56:54.

a model, it will require a relationship with government.

:56:54.:56:57.

you have come out with these proposals but how much consultation

:56:57.:57:02.

have you done with business? already have consultation, a

:57:02.:57:06.

partnership or talent, with a number of significant employers

:57:06.:57:10.

working with us around support for the reserves, but I published today

:57:10.:57:16.

are consultation, the beginning of a process, not the end. The number

:57:16.:57:20.

of days that employers would be expected to release reservists for

:57:20.:57:26.

training is 16 days in the year. Two full weeks and the rest of it

:57:26.:57:31.

is done at weekends and evenings. The Federation of Small businesses

:57:31.:57:35.

said compensation would be imperative. We haven't ruled out

:57:35.:57:40.

the possibility of financial support for small employers. There

:57:41.:57:45.

is a model the Australians used which gives financial incentives to

:57:45.:57:48.

small employers. The current situation already provides

:57:48.:57:52.

financial support for employers when reservists are called up and

:57:52.:57:56.

an important part of the package we have announced today is about

:57:56.:58:01.

giving employers more certainty so they will know. How much notice

:58:01.:58:05.

will they have? We are going to define the period of call-up for

:58:05.:58:10.

army reservists as a six-month period of deployment once in every

:58:10.:58:14.

five years, and it could be up to one year, including pre- deployment

:58:14.:58:18.

training and recuperation. But the employer will know in advance when

:58:18.:58:23.

that period is going to occur. And the focus, again, on the mutual

:58:23.:58:27.

benefits of military training, vocational skills people will

:58:27.:58:31.

acquire and working with employers to make sure we extract the maximum

:58:31.:58:34.

mutual benefit from this arrangement. The thank you both

:58:34.:58:41.

very much. We have to leave it there. The One O'Clock News is

:58:41.:58:45.

starting over on BBC One now. I am back tonight for This Week on BBC

:58:45.:58:48.

One with Piers Morgan, Simon Schama, Denise Welch, Sarah Smith, Michael

:58:48.:58:52.

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