07/11/2012 Daily Politics


07/11/2012

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn are joined by Damian Green and Caroline Flint to discuss the latest political news including reaction to the US election result.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. I have never been

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more hopeful about our future. I have never been more hopeful about

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America. And I ask you to sustain that hope. Four more years for

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Obama as he sweeps to to victory in the US presidential elections. The

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defeated Mitt Romney calls for an end to political bickering. He will

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be lucky. Europe's most powerful woman is on

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her way to Downing Street to knock out an agreement on the EU budget.

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Will they make any progress? We have elections closer to home

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next Thursday, not quite as exciting, but voters in England and

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Wales will choose their Police and Crime Commissioners, we will tell

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you what's what. I am an MP, get me off the

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backbenches. As she touches down down under, Nadine Dorries is

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suspended by the Chief Whip. With us today for 90 minutes of the

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finest in public service broadcasting available on this side

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of the Atlantic are - think of them of the Romney and Obama of British

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politics. Caroline Flint and Damien Green. Welcome to you both. First

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the main story, perhaps even the year, Barack Obama has been re-

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elected as President of the United States of America. You have heard a

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lot about electoral colleges and swing states over the last few days,

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here are the latest results as they stand. With all states having

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declared, except for Florida, keeping an eye on that one, Barack

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Obama has 303 electoral college votes, compared to Mitt Romney's

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206. He won almost all of the crucial

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swing states, including Ohio. That state's 18 votes fell in the

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President's favour and took him across the winning line. There were

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congressional elections, as well. The results didn't change.

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The Democrats keep control of the Senate on the latest figures. They

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returned 51 Senators compared to the Republicans' 45 and two two

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independents. The house of representives the Republicans still

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hold the majority. The US networks declared Mr Obama

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the winner around 4.30am our time but it was almost 6.00am UK time

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before Governor Romney conceded defeat. Later President Obama

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addressed supporters in his home town of Chicago. Both men looking

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for a more bipartisan future, though they always say this sort of

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thing at this time. I have just called President Obama to

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congratulate him on his victory, his supporters and his campaign

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also deserve contkwrat -- congratulations. I wish all of them

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well, but particularly the President, the First Lady and their

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daughters. This is a time of great challenges for America and I pray

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that the President will be successful in guiding our nation.

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The nation, as you know, is at a critical point, at a time like this

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we can't risk partisan bickering and political posturing, we have to

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do the people's work and citizens have to rise to the occasion.

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the weeks ahead I also look forward to sitting down with Governor

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Romney to talk about where we can work together to move this country

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forward. We will disagree, sometimes fiercely about how to get

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there, as it has for more than two centuries, progress will come in

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fits and starts. It's not always a straight line, it's not always a

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smooth path. By itself the recognition that we have common

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hopes and dreams won't end all the gridlock or solve all our problems

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or substitute for the pain-staking work of building consensus and

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making the difficult compromises needed to move this country forward.

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But that common bond is where we must begin. Our economy is

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recovering, a decade of war is ending. A long campaign is now over.

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President Obama there. Joining us now from Washington is our

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correspondent Kim Ghattas. In the final weeks of the campaign

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everybody was saying it was just too close to call. In the end,

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President Obama won really pretty comfortably. What happened? Well,

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several things happened, including a superstorm last week which really

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gave President Obama an opportunity to remind the American people of

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his style of leadership. He was out there during - or after the storm

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in the north-east of the United States, being presidential, instead

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of campaigning and Mitt Romney was out of the picture for a few days.

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Of course, that's not what helped him win the election but it helped

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him edge forward in those polls. Then, a fantastic political machine.

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President Obama in his victory speech himself described it as

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possibly the best political team in political history and he is

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probably right. Then you have the issues. You have women and you have

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the anti-immigration policies of the Republicans. Their policies on

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women, their positions on women are also very alienating so those two

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issues were really detrimental when it comes to getting the vote out

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for Republicans. Women came out in droves for Obama. And Latinos, 69%

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of them voted for Mr Obama. Then you have the economy. It was

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supposed to be Mr Obama's weak point. In the end, in some strange

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way it may have been one of his strong points because we were

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seeing the beginnings of a recovery and people probably thought we

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better keep with this steady hand. Briefly, ironically after what's

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been dubbed a bitter and negative campaign, calls from all sides for

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a more bipartisan approach. Is that wishful thinking? It's the classy

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thing to say when you have lost and you have just won and certainly

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President Obama is going to try to reach across the the aisle and Mitt

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Romney may think this is possible and may feel himself to be in a

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compromising mood but you have to remember that the popular vote is

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very much split down the middle. This is not a nation that has come

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together, healed divisions and overwhelmingly elected Mr Obama. He

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has the majority with the electoral votes but does not have an

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overwhelming mandate from the people. So there is still going to

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be opposition against his policies down the line, particularly because

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as you mentioned, the House of Representatives is still dominated

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by Republicans, as well. Thank you. Not everybody said it was too close

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to call, for the record. Who said it wasn't too close to call?

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need to dwell on that. A pat on the back!

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It was too close to call in the popular vote, but the electoral

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college vote it was always clear Mr Obama had a substantial majority

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and that's what happened on the night. The popular votes close,

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only a couple of million in it, but Mr Obama has a majority of over 100

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in the electoral college because he picks up the big states with the

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big electoral college votes and Mr Romney didn't get any of the swing

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:08:31.:08:32.

states, bar north Carolina, so far. They lost a seat in Massachusetts,

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a state Mr Romney had once before Governor of. Damien, Mr Obama is

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still in the White House. Democrats still have the Senate. What's

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changed? Well, not a lot in some ways. If we are drawing lessons

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from Britain and inevitably it's always slightly artificial to do

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that, but I take heart from the lesson that even in difficult

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economic times governments that are seen to be gripping the economic

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issue and tackling it get re- elected. That heartens me. If you

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look at the Republican side, what the Republicans didn't get was -

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they got almost no black votes, they got few his pan I can votes, -

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- Hispanic votes. They got only a minority of female votes, and among

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young college educated women they were way back. If you look at the

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Conservatives in Britain you are in an equivalent place, almost no

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black votes, no Asian votes, and you are bad among women votes.

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That's an exageation -- exaggeration. You are not good in

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these categories. There is a warning, I suspect Mitt Romney lost

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this election, not during the general campaign, but actually

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during the primaries where he tacked too far to his own party's

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slightly wilder fringes. People didn't forget that. I think the

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lesson for my party, the Conservative Party, is precisely,

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keep doing what David Cameron has always done, which is reach out

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beyond the base and issues which are difficult, which he has taken

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on, like overseas aid where there is criticism from within the party,

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stick to it, actually it's not just the right thing to do, it's the

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right thing to do politically, as well. We have a clip of the Prime

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Minister reacting to Mr Obama's re- election.

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I would like to congratulate Barack Obama on his re-election. I have

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really enjoyed working with him over these last few years and I

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look forward to working with him again. There's so many things that

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we need to do. We need to kick- start the world economy and I want

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to see an EU-US trade deal, in Jordan I am hearing appalling

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stories of what's happened in Syria and one of the the first things I

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want to talk about is how we must do more to try to solve this crisis.

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It's Barack now! My mate, says Mr Cameron. Speaking there in Jordan.

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Caroline Flint, the danger for Labour, looking at this is that if

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you are the incumbent, trajectory is everything. The economy is still

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in trouble but it seems to be getting better, living standards

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are beginning to rise again. Now the coalition, particularly the

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Conservatives, that's what they'll be saying come the next election.

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It's been tough, it's still difficult, but it's getting better.

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Give us another chance. I think that's an obvious thing that Damien

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and the Conservatives are going to say. I would counterthat to say

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this, first of all, Barack Obama has created a massive injection of

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investment into the economy, I think I am right in saying they've

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had 32 consecutive months of job growth. The job growth is not as

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good as Britain's. It's a consistent trend for them. In my

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own area, energy, he has taken, you know, the leadership to say we need

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to invest in green technologies, we need to invest in low carbon. That

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is helping... Can I just say, the biggest decision he has taken is to

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say let's invest in shale gas, is Labour in favour of that? There are

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environmental considerations to consider, if it's viable, let's

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look at that. The truth is he has said that but he's also said about

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investing in other low carbon, much more low carbon than shale gas.

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Last week we saw in this country how all over the place the

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coalition are on that issue. He is also someone for whom the American

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public believe that he is in touch with their concerns and actually

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Americans saying overwhelmingly compared to Mitt Romney that he is

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actually understands the concerns of those people who are struggling

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and poorer. He has advocated tax cuts for the very rich, for example.

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Mitt Romney was advocating to actually tax cuts for the rich,

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Obama was saying no to tax cuts for the rich, these are dividing lines

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that illustrated here in terms of actually David Cameron being more

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of a Mitt Romney candidate than an Obama candidate. David Cameron's a

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Mitt Romney? I am saying... Miliband is Barack Obama? David

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Cameron has supported tax cuts for the very rich. There are people in

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this country who say he is out of touch and not in touch... The rate

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he's cut is back to is 5% higher than it was for the whole of

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Labour's 13 years in pow sneer we are going to see next year people...

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Tax on the rich is higher under Labour. We know from organisations

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that have said the budgets have put in by this Government are

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regressive and not fair. political editor said to me last

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night, who is close to the coalition, if there had been a

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polling booth in Downing Street it would have been a land landslide

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for Obama? In 2008 I went to one of the election night parties and

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people were shocked to find a Conservative MP handing out pins at

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the door and I was wearing an Obama one. This time? Absolutely, Wye

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have voted for Obama. A few of your side campaigning for Mitt Romney as

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well. Who was? I have seen Rob Wilson on Twitter this morning

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saying this is, four more years where things aren't going to get

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done. You said Conservatives were campaigning for Obama, who was?

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understand people were out there supporting it. Who? I can't say the

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name. You are making an accusation but haven't got a name. You can see

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from Twitter this morning there were Conservative MPs supporting

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Mitt Romney. It's different from campaigning.

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It's the first time in 40 years that both candidates on a ticket

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lost their states? I didn't, I do know. Massachusetts and Wisconsin

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went. They did. Trivial knowledge. President Obama

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will be hoping for a more favourable global economic backdrop

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during his next term as President. The eurozone crisis has not gone

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away and this evening Angela Merkel flies into London to try to break

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the impasse over the the EU budget with David Cameron. The EU wants a

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6% increase in the budget over 7 years. David Cameron has called for

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an increase only in line with inflation. But last week his own

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MPs rebelled on the issue demanding a complete freeze. One of those

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rebels, Mark Reckless is on College Green. Welcome to the programme.

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:15:28.:15:30.

What do you want David Cameron to We want a cut in the EU budget,

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just as we are seeing cuts in domestic budgets across the country.

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I would like David Cameron to welcome Angela Merkel to Britain,

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but there's clearly been a parting of the ways. While you expect

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Germany wants a cut in the budget, given that it always pays in more,

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the reality is they are so deep into the euro they're prepared to

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pay higher out into the EU budget and in this country our Parliament

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and our people are not. Are you expecting a clash between the two,

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since there's been a parting of the ways? The newspaper headlines say

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it all, "Discord over the EU budget." And, "Merkel threatens

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Cameron with a clash.". It will be difficult to reach agreement on the

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EU budget. The two countries have a lot of interests in common. Germany

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sells 75 billion euros of goods to us every year and we need to see a

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relationship with Germany where it's a supporter and friendly

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relationship, but one where we trade freely, but where this

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country governs ourselves. What can David Cameron to move Angela

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Merkel? What should he threaten her with? I think he should reassure

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her that whatever happens in terms of the budget, however much Britain

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is unable to go along with the EU and the way Germany wants to take

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that, we want to remain on friendly terms with Germany and there should

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be a free trade arrangement between Britain and the EU, just as EU --

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the EU has with Switzerland and others. It would be easier to do

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that outside of the structures of the EU so we are not always getting

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in Germany's way and stopping them taking Europe to the political

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union they want, but where they are still able to sell us to and we are

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still able to sell to them. All the reports say Angela Merkel is fed up

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with David Cameron. She holds the cheque book, so she calls the

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shots? I think that's right. I think that really supports what

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I've just said, that we shouldn't be getting in their way and

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stopping them taking the EU in the way they want and always explaining

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from the sidelines. We should be better off as an independent

:17:44.:17:49.

country, trading with Europe and governing ourselves. Germany will

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still want to sell their cars to us and we'll still want to export to

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them. The fact that Germany is so powerful within the EU is a good

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thing, because they have a strong interest in negotiating a free

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trade deal with Britain and we would be better off with that trade

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relationship, but taking our own decisions for us in our Parliament.

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Thank you. David Cameron's flying back from

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Jordan, Angela Merkel is coming in from Berlin. They'll dine tonight

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at Downing Street. I'm sure it will be very cosy. To find out what

:18:22.:18:32.
:18:32.:18:32.

might happen we are joined from Berlin by the German MP Ralph

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BrinkHauss. David Cameron is going to say to Mrs Merkel tonight that

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he wants a real-term freeze on the EU budget. What will Mrs Merkel say

:18:45.:18:53.

in reply? So I guess that is a question of budget. It's not a main

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issue. Regarding the future of Europe, we are concerned about what

:18:58.:19:08.
:19:08.:19:08.

Mr Reckless said some minutes ago, that there is a sway from the UA.

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This is a tragedy for the political and economic union. Do you think

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that will happen? Do you see Britain is becoming increasingly

:19:17.:19:24.

semi-detached from Europe? What we see is that we are separating,

:19:24.:19:30.

because the attitude from many politicians of the UK is that we

:19:30.:19:35.

want to have only a market union, a single market. But what we see is

:19:35.:19:41.

we also have to have a political union and this is really a main

:19:41.:19:46.

point. To add something to it, you cannot be a member of a single

:19:46.:19:51.

market club without paying the membership fee. This is the

:19:51.:19:55.

attitude of Mr Reckless and it will not work. Is it reaching the stage

:19:55.:20:01.

where Britain is now clearly suck a drag on the European Union doing

:20:01.:20:05.

what it wants to do, the core countries certainly, that it would

:20:05.:20:09.

be better if Britain was a lot more semi-detached and didn't get in the

:20:09.:20:16.

way? No, I guess rereally need Britain. We need Britain to balance

:20:17.:20:21.

the European Union, to balance the peripharals of the country of

:20:21.:20:25.

southern Europe and the countries of the middle of Europe and of

:20:25.:20:29.

northern Europe. For this reason it is really a tragedy what is

:20:30.:20:34.

happening and we have to do everything to keep Britain in the

:20:34.:20:37.

union. All right. Let me come back to one of the big issues. You

:20:37.:20:42.

didn't want to talk about it at the start, but one of the big issues in

:20:42.:20:45.

the British political scene, at a time when Britain is cutting its

:20:45.:20:49.

public spending and increasing taxes, things are hurting and the

:20:49.:20:53.

number of police has been cut and cuts in social service budgets and

:20:53.:20:59.

welfare and so on, the British across the political spectrum are

:20:59.:21:03.

keen that the European budget shouldn't increase. What is the

:21:03.:21:06.

German position? So, we have exactly the same attitude, so

:21:06.:21:12.

members of German Parliament, at at least from me party, also want to

:21:12.:21:16.

freeze the budget. There is no question about it, but it's not the

:21:16.:21:20.

time to have all the vetoes and say no. It's a time for compromise, so

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what we are facing is the situation where we have a big package and one

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point in this package is the budget and we also have another issue in

:21:30.:21:33.

this package, it's the bail-out question and it's the question of

:21:33.:21:36.

the future of a common Europe. We have to arrange a compromise and at

:21:36.:21:40.

the end of the day we need on the one hand the UK and on the other,

:21:40.:21:46.

for example, Italy and France. This is the aim of Angela Merkel, to

:21:46.:21:51.

analyse this compromise. But even the German Foreign Secretary says

:21:51.:21:58.

that the EU budget is a nonsense, subsidies going to day spas and

:21:58.:22:04.

romantic hotels and the Common Agricultural Policy, which is a

:22:04.:22:06.

backward-looking 20th century invention, dominates the spending

:22:06.:22:10.

of the budget. What do you say? This is absolutely true, but we

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have to see the budget as a process. What we want to have in the future

:22:14.:22:19.

is a budget to organise growth. Not to organise old-fashioned parts of

:22:19.:22:25.

the economy. You haven't got that. You have got an old-fashioned

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budget and if anything, there will be cuts in research and development

:22:29.:22:35.

and cuts in funds going to eastern Europe, but the French and the

:22:35.:22:39.

inefficient German farmers will still get the CAP? I do not think

:22:39.:22:43.

that the German farmers are inefficient. I guess we have to see

:22:43.:22:48.

what German farmers are doing. was trying to provoke you. It is

:22:48.:22:51.

very rural, so I have to complain about that! It's absolutely true,

:22:51.:22:55.

that we have to improve this budget. This is the process and we need the

:22:55.:22:59.

support of the UK within this process and without the support of

:22:59.:23:02.

the UK within the process we get into a situation or we will get

:23:03.:23:07.

into the situation as if we have to rely on the countries and they will

:23:07.:23:11.

be in the south of Europe and these countries want to have the old-

:23:12.:23:15.

fashioned budget as you have addressed it. Stick with us. I want

:23:15.:23:20.

to bring in Damian Green, who is a member of the Conservative Party in

:23:20.:23:23.

the coalition government. What do you say to our friend from Germany

:23:23.:23:28.

that you are just getting more and more distant. You are not a player

:23:28.:23:33.

and you're on the margins and edges and he regrets that? I would say

:23:33.:23:36.

first that the person who speaks not just for the Government but for

:23:36.:23:41.

the party is David Cameron on this, rather than Mark Reckless and David

:23:41.:23:51.
:23:51.:23:52.

Cameron is trying to do things that, as ralph has just said, he should

:23:52.:23:57.

freeze. He said he would like to, but he's prepared to compromise.

:23:57.:24:00.

David Cameron will say he'll use the veto if there's not a freeze.

:24:00.:24:05.

That is a sensible position. Unless you actually put some lines down

:24:05.:24:10.

then you do just get the drift that Europe too often falls into.

:24:10.:24:13.

Actually saying at this time, actually increasing spending in

:24:14.:24:17.

ways that may well not be constructive, is not a sense ill-

:24:17.:24:22.

thing for Europe. It's obviously not for sensible for us in Britain

:24:22.:24:26.

to contribute, but it's less sensible for Germany, that

:24:26.:24:31.

contributes even more. Labour doesn't want to compromise along

:24:31.:24:38.

the lines that Mr Brinkhaus is presenting, so no compromise for

:24:38.:24:43.

you. That's correct. We voted on that in July as well, on a moction.

:24:43.:24:52.

-- a motion. We do believe that a cross -- across the situation, we

:24:52.:24:56.

have all of us are tightening our belts and reduce our budgets and

:24:56.:25:00.

there's nothing wrong at this point in time in expecting the same of

:25:00.:25:03.

the EU. I think part of the problem for David Cameron is going back to

:25:03.:25:10.

when he went to the meeting and said shaking the veto and we were

:25:10.:25:14.

left outside of discussions, he hasn't created the diplomatic

:25:14.:25:17.

negotiation that was necessary for him to be in a better position to

:25:17.:25:24.

ask for a real-terms cut and that is a shame. I'm going to give you

:25:25.:25:29.

the final word. At a time in continental Europe, particularly in

:25:30.:25:36.

Greece, Italy, Spain, now France hol hol hol has said this is the --

:25:36.:25:39.

Francois Hollande has said this is the most austere budget in Paris,

:25:39.:25:43.

where is there not a bigger head of steam in Europe for a freeze on the

:25:43.:25:47.

European budget, or even a cut in the budget when national budgets

:25:47.:25:53.

are being slashed? I guess because this is not the main question. We

:25:53.:25:57.

are talking about a banking union. We are talking about a lot of

:25:57.:26:01.

regulation stuff. We are talking about bail-out questions or about

:26:01.:26:06.

the debt crisis and so this issue of the budget is not the main point

:26:06.:26:09.

in political discussions. I regret this, because I am absolutely in

:26:10.:26:14.

the same position as most of my friends in the UK, that we really

:26:14.:26:19.

have to freeze the budget or at least modernise it and so the final

:26:19.:26:24.

word of my side is please we need your support. Thank you very much.

:26:24.:26:32.

We do a programme called Politics Europe it's on every -- once a

:26:32.:26:40.

month every Friday, I hope you'll join us on that. Now, are you a

:26:40.:26:43.

discontented member of Parliament, trying to get noticed on the

:26:44.:26:48.

backbenches? Showing off your knowledge about the price of basic

:26:48.:26:53.

food stubgz, bred, -- bread, eggs, milk perhaps? We know what you need

:26:53.:26:57.

to do to brighten up your day, a contest in which you can prove your

:26:57.:27:00.

worth and we have just the thing and you don't need to embarrass

:27:00.:27:04.

yourself in the Australian jungle to win this one. The Daily Politics

:27:04.:27:10.

mug, or drink the kangaroo urine it contains. I don't know whose mug

:27:10.:27:15.

that got into. Sorry about that! It was yours then! We'll see if you

:27:15.:27:25.
:27:25.:27:28.

can remember when this happened. # A tingle up and down the spine...

:27:28.:27:38.
:27:38.:27:42.

Arch arch I'm ready, willing and able... # Here you see the figure

:27:42.:27:45.

has been exceeded, so I can confirm that there will be a Conservative

:27:45.:27:51.

government. # You lay your cards on the table

:27:51.:28:01.
:28:01.:28:12.

and tell me what you plan to do... # Everybody's doing it, the mambo

:28:12.:28:20.

rock... # Hash

:28:20.:28:25.

Fly me to the moon and let me play upon the stars... # It gives me

:28:26.:28:29.

great pleasure to inaugurate this terminal and to name this building

:28:29.:28:39.
:28:39.:28:49.

in which we are now standing the And to be in with a chance of

:28:49.:28:53.

winning that mug, without the kangaroo urine in it, send your

:28:53.:29:03.
:29:03.:29:05.

answer to our special e-mail address: If they want the kangaroo

:29:05.:29:11.

stuff they can have it. No. It's coming up to midday here. We'll see

:29:11.:29:16.

Big Ben behind us. There it is. Quite a nice, sunny day, but crisp

:29:16.:29:20.

and cold. The B division on Prime Minister's questions, but not here,

:29:20.:29:30.
:29:30.:29:32.

we have the A team. I'm going to walk off. Here today, gone tomorrow.

:29:32.:29:38.

Go on. I just called you the A team and all I'm getting is abuse. Right,

:29:38.:29:44.

so we have Harriet Harman and William Hague. Nick Clegg. That

:29:44.:29:49.

means that the opposition will be questions by which I mean

:29:49.:29:54.

Conservative backbenchers. It might be interesting. The dynamic today

:29:54.:30:02.

is less likely to be focused on Nick Clegg, but more on whether

:30:02.:30:06.

Tory backbenchers choose to use it as a opportunity to talk about

:30:06.:30:08.

boundaries, which is an argument barely noticed outside Westminster,

:30:08.:30:11.

but still going on inside the Palace of Westminster or whether

:30:11.:30:14.

they use the opportunity to try and humiliate and embarrass Nick Clegg,

:30:14.:30:18.

because one of the striking things earlier in the year and I think

:30:18.:30:21.

there have been huge consequences for the relationship between Nick

:30:21.:30:28.

Clegg and the Conservatives on this, was when Tory backbenchers richly

:30:28.:30:32.

humiliated him on reform of the House of Lords. There are always

:30:32.:30:40.

quopbs quepbss. -- consequences. It seems to me they are quite restless

:30:40.:30:45.

and a lot of rebelled and they see Nick Clegg as the problem or part

:30:45.:30:49.

of the problem on Europe and they have heard his speech last week, in

:30:49.:30:53.

which he was smearing about a promise wrapped in a Union Jack. He

:30:53.:30:56.

called it a false promise. Quite tempting to do that, but like all

:30:56.:31:00.

of us they will be thinking Obama, and know that the Prime Minister is

:31:00.:31:04.

not there. How will that play out? You have had the results in

:31:04.:31:07.

everybody's mind and they will overshadow the questions today?

:31:07.:31:10.

will. Everyone is making calculations about what they mean.

:31:10.:31:13.

I heard you talking about it in terms of the lessons about women

:31:13.:31:18.

voters. I think an incumbent as one is a big deal if you are David

:31:18.:31:23.

Cameron. They've been losing again and again. Somebody won. Straight

:31:23.:31:33.
:31:33.:31:36.

Mr Speaker, the House will wish to join me in paying treub pute to the

:31:36.:31:42.

British soldiers killed in Afghanistan last week. Lieutenant

:31:42.:31:51.

Edward Drummond Baxter and Lance Corporal Siddhanta Kunwar. Our

:31:51.:31:56.

condolences are with the friends and family. With remembrance day on

:31:56.:32:00.

Sunday we are reminded of the remarkable job the armed forces do

:32:00.:32:04.

to ensure our safety and security. Furthermore, the House will wish to

:32:04.:32:13.

Black, the Northern Ireland Prison Service officer, who was shot and

:32:13.:32:15.

killed last Friday. As my honourable friend the Secretary of

:32:15.:32:19.

State for Northern Ireland said on Friday, we utterly condemn this

:32:19.:32:23.

cowardly crime. Our thoughts are with David's wife and children at

:32:23.:32:27.

this distressing time. Mr Speaker, I am sure also the House will want

:32:27.:32:33.

to join me in congratulating President Obama on his election

:32:33.:32:36.

victory last night. I suspect that's the only point I will be

:32:36.:32:41.

cheered today by the benches opposite! We look forward to

:32:41.:32:44.

continuing the Government's work with him in building a more

:32:44.:32:47.

prosperous, a more free and stable world. Mr Speaker, this morning I

:32:47.:32:49.

had meetings with Ministerial colleagues and others in addition

:32:49.:32:54.

to my duties in this House, I shall have further such meetings later

:32:54.:32:58.

today. May I fully associate myself with the sincere tribute paid to

:32:58.:33:01.

the two fallen servicemen and to David Black. It's right this House

:33:01.:33:04.

pays tribute to those who have fallen in the service of our

:33:04.:33:08.

country, never more so than in the week of Remembrance Sunday. May I

:33:08.:33:13.

also say that President Obama will be relieved to get the support of

:33:13.:33:23.
:33:23.:33:25.

Mr Speaker, the former Metropolitan Police Commissioner Lord Steven has

:33:25.:33:29.

said police morale is at national crisis levels. Is he right and why

:33:29.:33:33.

is that the case? Mr Speaker, as he will also know,

:33:33.:33:42.

the latest figures show that overall crime is down by 6%. Victim

:33:42.:33:46.

satisfaction with the police has actually gone up. Response times to

:33:46.:33:51.

emergency calls has been maintained or improved. Crime has fallen

:33:51.:33:55.

presipively in his own constituency. When will he congratulate the

:33:55.:33:58.

police rather than denigrate the police on doing a difficult job

:33:58.:34:03.

dealing with savings, as everybody has to, whilst keeping the public

:34:03.:34:13.
:34:13.:34:15.

safe? Does my honourable friend agree with the German finance

:34:15.:34:20.

Minister calling on the OECD to tackle the challenge of corporate

:34:20.:34:24.

tax avoidance by multinational companies?

:34:24.:34:28.

I am sure everybody will warmly welcome the work the Chancellor is

:34:28.:34:34.

now doing with the finance department and the finance ministry

:34:34.:34:40.

in Berlin to crack down on what was industrial-scale tax avoidance by

:34:40.:34:43.

large corporate entities in this country and elsewhere allowed to go

:34:43.:34:50.

on unchecked under 13 years of the Labour Government. Harriet Harman.

:34:50.:34:55.

Mr Speaker, can I join the Deputy Prime Minister in expressing our

:34:55.:35:01.

deepest condolences for the death of Lieutenant Edward Drummond

:35:01.:35:10.

Baxter and Lance Lance Corporal Siddhanta Kunwar and at remembrance

:35:10.:35:14.

services this Sunday we will remember not just those who died in

:35:14.:35:18.

the two two world wars but all our servicemen and women who have lost

:35:18.:35:20.

their lives. We accepted our deepest sympathy to the family of

:35:20.:35:24.

David Black of the Northern Ireland Prison Service, who was killed last

:35:24.:35:29.

Friday. Mr Speaker, can I also join the Deputy Prime Minister in

:35:29.:35:32.

offering our warmest contkpwrt hraeugss to the -- congratulations

:35:33.:35:37.

to the President of the United States, Barack Obama. This morning,

:35:37.:35:41.

he spoke of his determination to create more jobs, healthcare for

:35:41.:35:49.

all and tackling the scourge of inequality. We wish him well. Mr

:35:49.:35:54.

Speaker, Lord Justice Leveson will be publishing his report and

:35:54.:35:58.

recommendations soon. The Deputy Prime Minister said that provided

:35:58.:36:02.

Lord Justice Leveson's proposals are proportional and workable, the

:36:02.:36:06.

Government should implement them and we agree. So when Leveson's

:36:06.:36:10.

report is published, will the Government convene cross-party

:36:10.:36:16.

talks to take it forward? We need a strong, free press and we also need

:36:16.:36:20.

a proper system to protect people from being, as the Prime Minister

:36:20.:36:27.

said, thrown to the wolves. I agree with much of what she said

:36:27.:36:30.

about Leveson. If his proposals - we haven't seen them yet, we need

:36:30.:36:35.

to wait and see, are workable, we should seek to support them. Of

:36:35.:36:40.

course, that's the whole point of the exercise. I also agree with her

:36:40.:36:44.

that we should work on a cross- party basis where we can, this is a

:36:44.:36:48.

major, major issue which escapes the normal kind of tribal point-

:36:48.:36:52.

scoring in party politics. There are two principles, both of which

:36:52.:36:56.

she alludes to. Firstly, that we must do everything to ensure that

:36:56.:37:01.

we maintain a free, raubgous independent press, it's what makes

:37:01.:37:05.

our democracy in a country what it is. But also make sure that the

:37:05.:37:11.

vulnerable are protected from abuse by the powerful. That happened on

:37:11.:37:14.

an unacceptable scale and on too many occasions. We need to be able

:37:14.:37:19.

to look the parents of Millie Dowler in the eye and say that in

:37:19.:37:22.

future there will be permanently independent forms of recourse,

:37:22.:37:27.

sanction and accountability when things go wrong in the future.

:37:27.:37:32.

I thank him for that answer. We must have a press which reports the

:37:32.:37:36.

truth without fear or favour. But after all the evidence that came

:37:36.:37:39.

out during the inquiry, particularly as he says, from the

:37:39.:37:44.

Dowlers and the McCanns, we simply can't continue with the status quo.

:37:44.:37:47.

A press complaints system where a publication can simply walk away

:37:47.:37:52.

from the system and a system that is run by the press. Will the

:37:52.:37:56.

Deputy Prime Minister agree that a version of business as usual will

:37:56.:38:03.

simply not do and it would be a derelicion of our duty to allow the

:38:03.:38:07.

report to be kicked into the long grass? I think everybody accepts

:38:07.:38:09.

whatever their individual views about this, that business as usual

:38:09.:38:13.

is simply not acceptable. The status quo has failed and it's

:38:13.:38:16.

failed over and over again. The model of self-regulation that we

:38:16.:38:21.

have seen over the last several years has not worked when things

:38:21.:38:25.

have gone wrong. I agree with the premise upon which we in the

:38:25.:38:28.

Government actually created the Leveson Inquiry which is to seek

:38:28.:38:31.

out recommendations for change. That's the whole point of the

:38:31.:38:37.

Leveson Inquiry. I look forward to all of us having the opportunity to

:38:37.:38:41.

work together in the public interest to get this right. Now, Mr

:38:41.:38:46.

Speaker, this week the Deputy Prime Minister sent an e-mail to his

:38:46.:38:52.

party members. In it he describes the task of finding child care as a

:38:53.:38:57.

real nightmare. Isn't it clear that cutting the child care element of

:38:57.:39:01.

tax credits has made that nightmare worse for for parents? I tell you

:39:01.:39:06.

what I think has helped many people who have to - struggle to make ends

:39:06.:39:10.

meet and pay for child care is the fact this Government that is

:39:10.:39:13.

providing 15 hours of free pre- school support and child care to

:39:13.:39:16.

every three and four-year-old in the country, no Government's done

:39:16.:39:19.

that before. It's this Government, as of next April, that will be

:39:19.:39:23.

providing 15 hours of pre-school support and child care to some of

:39:23.:39:26.

the poorest two-year-olds in the country. No other Government has

:39:26.:39:29.

done that before. It is this Government that is taking two

:39:29.:39:34.

million people on low pay out of paying any income tax altogether.

:39:34.:39:40.

That's the record I am proud of. The Deputy Prime Minister has shown

:39:40.:39:49.

himself to be completely out of touch. The reality is that many

:39:49.:39:53.

part-time working parents are having to give up their job because

:39:53.:39:58.

of the cuts in tax credits and having instead to be on benefits. I

:39:58.:40:03.

asked him about the child care elements of the tax credits and he

:40:03.:40:10.

hasn't answered. Why won't he admit the cut he voted for has cost

:40:10.:40:17.

families �500 and 44,000 families are losing out? If If that wasn't

:40:17.:40:22.

bad enough they're cutting from Sure Start. In his e-mail he said

:40:22.:40:27.

he was going to reveal... Order. I know that the Junior Minister in

:40:27.:40:31.

the back row thinks that her views are relevant, not interested. Order.

:40:31.:40:36.

I don't want heckling. I want the question to be heard and it will be

:40:36.:40:43.

heard with courtesy. If the session has to to be extended, so be it.

:40:43.:40:47.

Thank you. I am beginning to have quite a lot of sympathy with the

:40:47.:40:54.

honourable member for mid- Bedfordshire. All those rats and

:40:54.:40:59.

snakes and that was even before she went to the jungle. In the Deputy

:41:00.:41:07.

Prime Minister's e-mail he said he was going to reveal... Mr Speak.

:41:07.:41:12.

Order. I have made the point once. I am going to make it only once

:41:12.:41:16.

more. Mr McCartney, your heckling is not wanted. It doesn't help.

:41:16.:41:19.

Stop it. And stop it for the remainder of this session and in

:41:19.:41:22.

the future. I have made the position clear. Harriet Harman.

:41:22.:41:26.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. In the Deputy Prime Minister's e-mail he

:41:26.:41:31.

said he was going to reveal what really goes on behind those

:41:31.:41:35.

Whitehall doors. Perhaps in his next week's instalment he will tell

:41:35.:41:39.

the truth, under his Government families are worse off, aren't

:41:39.:41:47.

they? As of next April, because of one of the most radical tax changes

:41:47.:41:51.

interviewsed by any Government in living memory, 24 million basic

:41:51.:41:58.

rate taxpayers will be �550 better off. That is a radical change I am

:41:58.:42:02.

very proud of. I am proud of the fact that three and four-year-olds

:42:02.:42:07.

are going to benefit from changes, two yearlies are going to -- two

:42:07.:42:11.

yearlies are -- two-year-olds are going to benefit. Tax credits are

:42:11.:42:16.

not the best answers, for many families so yes I accept we need to

:42:16.:42:20.

do more to make child care affordable so more women can get

:42:20.:42:23.

back into work at an earlier stage, that is what this Government is

:42:24.:42:27.

setting about doing. While we are also cleaning up the mess left

:42:27.:42:34.

behind by her. He comes to the despatch box and says one thing but

:42:34.:42:38.

he does something completely different and he is at it again on

:42:39.:42:44.

the police. Two years ago, he made a solemn election pledge that the

:42:44.:42:49.

Lib Dems would provide 3,000 more police officers but there aren't

:42:49.:42:58.

more. There are 6,800 fewer. It's tuition feess all over again. Why

:42:58.:43:02.

should anyone trust the Lib Dems on policing? At least they can trust

:43:02.:43:12.
:43:12.:43:14.

this side of the House with the economy. Let me explain.

:43:14.:43:20.

Mr Speaker, let me explain. The Shadow Chancellor's not here...

:43:20.:43:26.

Order. The right honourable gentleman is in danger of being

:43:26.:43:35.

heckled noisously and stupidly by both sides. The right honourable

:43:35.:43:43.

gentleman's answer will be heard, however long it takes. I am used to

:43:43.:43:48.

getting it from both sides. The Shadow Chancellor is not here but

:43:48.:43:52.

just to underline the point, last year in a television interview he

:43:52.:43:56.

denied that there was a structural deficit while Labour was in power.

:43:56.:44:00.

Last month in another television interview he denied the denial. So

:44:00.:44:05.

now that we have the Shadow Chancellor briefing against himself

:44:05.:44:09.

in television interviews, how on earth is anyone going to have faith

:44:09.:44:16.

that this lot can sort out the economy? People know they can't

:44:16.:44:19.

trust - people are finding they can't trust this Government object

:44:19.:44:22.

the -- on the economy because of the Government he supports we have

:44:22.:44:28.

lost two years of economic growth and borrowing is going up. I don't

:44:28.:44:33.

know why they're so cheerful about - why they're so cheerful about the

:44:33.:44:38.

cuts in police numbers. They might not be bothered, but their

:44:38.:44:42.

constituents certainly are. It's always the same with the Lib Dems,

:44:42.:44:46.

you can't trust them on tuition fees, on child care, and when it

:44:46.:44:50.

comes to voting next week people will remember you certainly can't

:44:50.:44:56.

trust them on the police. What about her promise of no boom and

:44:56.:45:00.

bust? What happened to that one? This coalition has now been in

:45:00.:45:05.

power for two and a half years and in those years we have given 24

:45:05.:45:08.

million basic rate taxpayers an income tax cut and taken two

:45:08.:45:12.

million people on low pay out of paying income tax cut, we have cut

:45:12.:45:16.

the deficit by a quarter, reformed welfare. What has she and her

:45:16.:45:20.

colleagues done? What have they done? Gone on a few marches, denied

:45:20.:45:24.

any responsibility for the mess we are in and they haven't even filled

:45:24.:45:28.

in their blank sheet of paper where there should be policies. She might

:45:28.:45:33.

be hoping for some bad news, to make her point in this country. We

:45:33.:45:43.
:45:43.:45:49.

are sorting out the mess she left Moving on, as we must, I would echo

:45:49.:45:52.

the Deputy Prime Minister's comments on the US election and

:45:52.:45:56.

congratulate Barack Obama. It's always good to see a leader re-

:45:56.:46:01.

elected in difficult times. Would the Deputy Prime Minister agree

:46:01.:46:06.

with me that alongside new and emerging markets, Britain should

:46:06.:46:10.

seek to strengthen our trade ties with the US through a new trade

:46:11.:46:16.

deal as we seek to boost our recovery and start one across the

:46:16.:46:23.

Channel? The lesson of the election in the States is that voters'

:46:23.:46:27.

memories are longer than members opposite seem to think, because

:46:27.:46:30.

voters when it comes to casting a vote remember who created the mess

:46:30.:46:36.

in the first place and who has to do the painstaking, difficult, and

:46:36.:46:42.

yes, longer-than-we-hoped job. There is so much we need to do to

:46:42.:46:44.

work together with the new administration. He talks about

:46:44.:46:49.

trade. I would like to see a new EU and US Free Trade Agreement to

:46:49.:46:54.

create a spur to economic growth. I was delighted to here also

:46:54.:46:57.

overnight that the President actually single out his commitment

:46:58.:47:01.

to dealing with climate change, another area where we can work

:47:01.:47:09.

together with them. The Deputy Prime Minister tells us that he

:47:09.:47:14.

supports the living wage and the increase announced on Monday. Can

:47:14.:47:21.

he tell us how many Lib Dem councils pay the living wage?

:47:21.:47:28.

she knows, her own leader - THE SPEAKER: The honourable lady has

:47:28.:47:30.

asked the Deputy Prime Minister. I hope members will have the courtesy

:47:30.:47:38.

to hear the answer. I certainly want to hear it. The her own leader

:47:38.:47:41.

has said this is a voluntary process and we need to encourage

:47:41.:47:47.

employers to pay the living wage. No-one will disagree with the idea

:47:47.:47:50.

of a living wage, where people are paid a fair wage for a fair day's

:47:50.:47:56.

work. There's a lot of extra work to be done to make this a reality,

:47:56.:47:59.

but guess what, it's this Government, because of our tax

:47:59.:48:02.

changes, that mean that as of next April someone working on the

:48:02.:48:10.

minimum wage will have their income tax cut by half. The tragic death

:48:10.:48:15.

of private David Lee Collins while off duty in Cyprus is a devastating

:48:15.:48:21.

blow to his mother, my constituent and to family and friends in the

:48:21.:48:24.

constituency and across Manchester. Will the Deputy Prime Minister

:48:24.:48:29.

assure me that the Foreign Office and the MoD are working with

:48:29.:48:32.

Cypriot authorities to ensure that the perpetrators are brought to

:48:32.:48:39.

justice? I think everybody - our hearts go out to the mother and

:48:39.:48:43.

indeed the other family and friends of David Lee Collins who came to

:48:43.:48:46.

such an untimely death in the way that he described. It's obviously

:48:46.:48:52.

right for him to raise this issue on behalf of the family. I can

:48:52.:48:56.

certainly assure him that the MoD and the Foreign Office will do

:48:56.:48:59.

everything they can to find out exactly what happened and bring the

:48:59.:49:01.

perpetrators to justice and I'm sure the Secretary of State for

:49:01.:49:10.

Defence, who is here, will seek to keep him updated as things esolve.

:49:10.:49:17.

-- evolve. Crops were destroyed in the devastating floods that

:49:17.:49:19.

devastated my constituency last month, warnings that we face

:49:19.:49:23.

another winter of floods. The Government promised to binning

:49:23.:49:30.

forward plans for a new deal on flood insurance in July. My worried

:49:30.:49:36.

constituents are still waiting. When will this incompetent and out-

:49:36.:49:40.

of-touch government actually act on making sure that ordinary families

:49:40.:49:46.

and businesses are protected from flooding or will in the end this be

:49:46.:49:52.

another broken promise? She packed in every soundbite into that one!

:49:52.:49:58.

Mr Speaker, we are involved in very detailed discussions with the

:49:58.:50:01.

insurance industry, precisely to provide her constituents with the

:50:01.:50:07.

reassurances that they rightly seek. I only point out that that was a --

:50:07.:50:10.

an agreement that was never reached in the 13 years in which Labour was

:50:10.:50:13.

in power. We are doing that work now. It's complicated and it's very

:50:13.:50:17.

important and we are devoted a lot of attention to it and I hope we'll

:50:17.:50:21.

be able to make an announce in the not too distant future. Thousands

:50:21.:50:25.

of people are being killed in Syria each month and the suffering of

:50:25.:50:29.

their people is immense. Sources within the country say that British

:50:29.:50:33.

assistance has been slow and that the priority ought to be supporting

:50:33.:50:37.

the civil administration councils, so that basic water and sewage

:50:37.:50:42.

services can be connected. What more can the Prime Minister do to

:50:42.:50:44.

discuss with President Obama to really bring about a solution to

:50:44.:50:51.

this crisis? I know that the Prime Minister, who is in the region

:50:51.:50:57.

right now, discusses this on an on- going basis with the President and

:50:57.:51:02.

will continue to do so. We are the second-largest bilateral donor in

:51:02.:51:04.

Syria. The circumstances are incredibly difficult for the

:51:04.:51:09.

delivery of aid and eansance, but we need to make every -- assistance,

:51:09.:51:13.

but we need to make every effort to accelerate. Any suggestions he

:51:13.:51:17.

wishes to make to the Department for International Development and

:51:17.:51:24.

others, about how we do that, will be well received. Official

:51:24.:51:29.

documents show the health reviews best option is downgrading

:51:29.:51:34.

Kettering General Hospital's A&E, maternity, children and acute

:51:34.:51:40.

services and cutting 550 of the 658 beds. How can anyone believe the

:51:40.:51:47.

Prime Minister when he claims those NHS services are safe in his hands?

:51:47.:51:54.

I find it extraordinary she persists in this wilful

:51:54.:52:00.

scaremongering. She plucks out the worst-case, whereas she knows, no

:52:00.:52:05.

decision has been taken. Instead, of frightening people about what is

:52:05.:52:09.

happening in the NHS, why doesn't she celebrate the great work of our

:52:09.:52:13.

nurses and doctors and our other clinicians in the NHS, who are

:52:13.:52:17.

delivering an absolute world-class service for the people of Kettering,

:52:17.:52:24.

Corby and elsewhere? Could the Deputy Prime Minister confirm the

:52:24.:52:26.

Government's commitments to marine renewable energy, especially in the

:52:26.:52:34.

south-west? I think this is clearly an area where the south-west has a

:52:34.:52:40.

natural advantage and it's one of the many areas which are reflected

:52:40.:52:43.

in the diverse approach to renewable energy generation in the

:52:43.:52:47.

future, because we have to wean ourselves off an overreliance on

:52:47.:52:54.

one kind of energy and spread our bets more fairly in the future.

:52:54.:52:59.

only is it Obama day, but it's adoption week. My ten-minute rule

:52:59.:53:03.

bill in the last sessions called for equalising statutory rights for

:53:03.:53:07.

leave, pay and allowances between adoptive parents and parents who

:53:07.:53:11.

are born to them. This can be done by regulations. Could the dep my

:53:11.:53:15.

Prime Minister ask a minister or two -- Deputy Prime Minister ask a

:53:15.:53:20.

minister or two to meet with me to eliminate this unfairness? I will

:53:20.:53:24.

make sure. I would like to pay tribute to her for her London-

:53:24.:53:29.

standing campaign to equalise the rights of parents of adopted

:53:29.:53:32.

children to equalise that and with other parents. It's something I

:53:32.:53:36.

believe should be the case. It's something we have been looking at

:53:36.:53:40.

closely. I hope we'll be able to make an announcement on that issue

:53:40.:53:44.

in the not too distant future. the Deputy Prime Minister aclear

:53:44.:53:49.

that the Chancellor's initiative to get the OECD to crack down on

:53:49.:53:53.

international tax avoidance is all the more important when corporation

:53:53.:53:59.

tax went up 6% in the last ten years, but income tax receipts

:53:59.:54:02.

doubled? Yes, it's quite right that the Treasury and the Chancellor

:54:03.:54:07.

have been so keen in providing further resources to ensure that

:54:07.:54:10.

the teams in Whitehall, the HMRC and elsewhere, would crack down on

:54:10.:54:16.

this, are able to do that. The figures that we hope we'll be able

:54:16.:54:20.

to recoup in tax paid that otherwise would have been avoided

:54:20.:54:24.

are eye-watering. Billions of pounds of tax will come in the

:54:24.:54:34.

vaults of the treasury which would either wise have gone walk-about.

:54:34.:54:44.
:54:44.:54:49.

Norway, Sweden and Denmark hold the top three spots in the last quarter,

:54:49.:54:56.

so will the Deputy Prime Minister take the opportunity to

:54:56.:55:02.

congratulate these countries on their energy results? Last time I

:55:02.:55:06.

looked it was to include Iceland, but now it doesn't. What is he

:55:06.:55:11.

going to do next, pick owl Malaysia? Or Indonesia? Try be pour

:55:11.:55:21.
:55:21.:55:23.

consistent, please. -- more consist ten, please. Does the -- consistent,

:55:23.:55:26.

please. Does the Deputy Prime Minister expect to be involved in

:55:26.:55:31.

the selection process for the EU commissioner? I won't be a

:55:31.:55:39.

candidate however much he might hope otherwise! The Deputy Prime

:55:39.:55:44.

Minister's predecessor and mine is Labour's excellent candidate in the

:55:44.:55:49.

police and crime commissioner elections in Humberside. But the

:55:49.:55:54.

Tory candidate describes the role as the job from hell. Does the

:55:54.:55:59.

Deputy Prime Minister agree with his Tory colleague or does he think

:55:59.:56:07.

that personally he has it harder? On the issue of the the

:56:07.:56:11.

commissioner elections, I'm not going to try to compare notes with

:56:11.:56:15.

my predecessor, but I hope everybody will turn out to vote.

:56:15.:56:20.

The fact there are so many has-been politicians who are standing might

:56:20.:56:25.

put quite a lot of people off, but I hope none theless they will

:56:25.:56:29.

participate in the important elections. -- none the less they

:56:30.:56:33.

will participate in the important elections. Last week, Stephen

:56:33.:56:39.

farerer was sentenced to life for the brutal murder of my constituent

:56:39.:56:45.

and a form by -- another resident, so will the Deputy Prime Minister

:56:45.:56:50.

thank the police for their speedy and successful conclusion in this

:56:50.:56:56.

case and sending our deepest condolences to the families?

:56:56.:57:06.
:57:06.:57:08.

sure the whole House wishes to join in with the wishes to the family

:57:08.:57:11.

and friends. The police moved very fast. It's very important in cases

:57:11.:57:14.

like this that the public sees where possible justice is done, but

:57:15.:57:21.

justice is done as rapidly as possible. Can the Deputy Prime

:57:21.:57:25.

Minister explain to the House why the Liberal Democrats are fielding

:57:25.:57:31.

only 21 candidates out of 44 in the crime commissioners' elections?

:57:31.:57:35.

Because we are standing in those areas where Liberal Democrats will

:57:35.:57:45.

to stand. I know the party opposite doesn't understand the meaning of

:57:45.:57:48.

the word internal party democracy, but it's something I'm very proud

:57:48.:57:58.

we have and he should try it some day. There are obscene bonuses and

:57:58.:58:01.

there is the biggest divide between the rich and the poor, so can hi

:58:01.:58:04.

right honourable friend make clear it's the overriding ambition of

:58:04.:58:08.

Government to deliver a fairer Britain and one of the ways of

:58:08.:58:13.

doing it is affordable housing and social, rented housing which

:58:13.:58:19.

delivers both fairness and growth? Yes, and that's why it's so

:58:19.:58:24.

important that we are committed to a �20 billion worth of investment

:58:24.:58:30.

into affordable housing, generating tens of thousands of more homes so

:58:30.:58:33.

families have an affordable home they can call their own and also I

:58:33.:58:37.

would draw his attention to the significance of the announcement

:58:37.:58:40.

made by the Secretary of State for Local Governmant yesterday, that we

:58:40.:58:49.

will be looking at doubling the amount of -- of funds that can be

:58:50.:58:53.

used to invest up to �22 billion of extra money into local

:58:53.:58:56.

infrastructure. That's the way to make the country fair and get the

:58:56.:59:04.

economy moving. Can I join in the tribute to the two soldiers and

:59:04.:59:10.

David Black who gave their lives last week? Tomorrow morning will

:59:10.:59:16.

mark the anniversary of the Poppy Day massacre in Enniskillen. This

:59:16.:59:20.

week, the police have received a new line of inquiry. Will the

:59:20.:59:24.

Deputy Prime Minister join with me in echoing the survivors' call for

:59:24.:59:29.

justice and for new information to be brought forward? I'm sure he

:59:29.:59:33.

speaks on behalf of all of us that we should pause and reflect on the

:59:33.:59:39.

terrible suffering of those who now have to relive 25 years later, the

:59:40.:59:43.

memories of that terrible atrocity and those who were killed, injured

:59:43.:59:45.

and maimed. I know that the Secretary of State for Northern

:59:45.:59:49.

Ireland will be attending the anniversary event. This is an

:59:49.:59:53.

extremely difficult week for all those who suffered at that time and

:59:53.:59:56.

have had to live with the memories ever since. Yes, of course, I can

:59:56.:00:00.

confirm that where there are new leads and new evidence that that

:00:00.:00:03.

will be pursued rigorously and will provide all support in order to

:00:03.:00:09.

make sure that is the case. Under the previous Government, officials

:00:09.:00:12.

used discretion to refuse to provide information to people who

:00:12.:00:15.

were brought up in case. Will the Deputy Prime Minister look to open

:00:15.:00:18.

the files so people who are brought up in care can find out what

:00:18.:00:25.

happened to them? I certainly they he's right in saying that all of us

:00:25.:00:29.

given the daily drip, drip effect of the horrific revelations that

:00:29.:00:33.

seem to get worse every day and seem to be taking place on a scale

:00:33.:00:36.

that before now was unimaginable, that we send out a clear message

:00:36.:00:41.

from all sides to any victim, who is sitting at home, alone, still

:00:41.:00:45.

harbouring the terrible memories and terrible suffering that he

:00:45.:00:48.

endured, that this is the time for them to speak up and for them to

:00:48.:00:52.

come forward. We'll help them. We'll reach out to them and make

:00:52.:00:56.

sure that their suffering is atoned for and where we can find those who

:00:56.:01:00.

have perpetrated these terrible abuses, that they're brought to

:01:00.:01:05.

justice, even several years since they might have occurred.

:01:05.:01:09.

Scotland's First Minister has misled the public on legal advice

:01:09.:01:13.

that doesn't exist, rewritten the Ministerial Code for his own gain

:01:13.:01:17.

and there are strong suggestions that he will ignore the Electoral

:01:17.:01:21.

Commission in the upcoming referendum. People in Scotland are

:01:21.:01:25.

losing faith in the First Minister and this Government are in danger

:01:25.:01:29.

of being complicit in yet another muddle. Does the Deputy Prime

:01:29.:01:34.

Minister trust the First Minister to deliver a favour, legal and

:01:34.:01:38.

decisive referendum on separation? As I hope she would be prepared to

:01:38.:01:43.

recognise, we have been working on a cross-party basis, particularly

:01:43.:01:45.

between the parties that believe in the maintenance of the family of

:01:45.:01:50.

the nations of the United Kingdom to ensure that there is a fair,

:01:50.:01:55.

legal and decisive vote in the referendum. I certainly agree with

:01:55.:01:59.

her characterisation. The spectical of the SNP administration using

:01:59.:02:03.

taxpayers' money to stop disclosure to the public of legal advice that

:02:03.:02:07.

was never sought, honestly you couldn't make it up. It's like

:02:07.:02:14.

dropping Iceland from the arc of prosperity. Rising prices to keep

:02:14.:02:19.

their homes warm and driver their cars are putting pressures on rural

:02:19.:02:21.

areas. What will my friend be taking to make the tax system

:02:21.:02:26.

fairer and put more money in the pockets the people on lower and

:02:26.:02:31.

middle incomes? That is precisely why the centrepiece tax reform of

:02:31.:02:35.

this Government is a radical one to lift the point at which people

:02:35.:02:41.

start paying tax, up to �10,000. From the �6,400 when we took over

:02:41.:02:47.

from Labour. And that, when we deliver that, will deliver a �700

:02:47.:02:50.

tax cut to over 24 million people in this country, including in his

:02:50.:02:55.

constituency. It's something we should celebrate. Bearing in mind

:02:55.:03:00.

we were selling arms to the Gaddafi regime right up to the uprising, is

:03:00.:03:04.

the Deputy Prime Minister pleased that the Prime Minister's busy now

:03:04.:03:08.

selling arms to Saudi Arabia? A country where human rights is non-

:03:09.:03:13.

existent and amputations and floggings take place frequently and

:03:13.:03:22.

we know how women are treated there. Is that Liberal Democrat policy?

:03:22.:03:26.

have the strictest of controls of almost every economy in the world,

:03:26.:03:30.

goching the conditions in which we can sell arms to others --

:03:31.:03:35.

governing the conditions in which we sell arms to others. Nothing we

:03:35.:03:41.

can do impedes our ability to tell allies and other governments where

:03:41.:03:44.

we have real concerns of human rights record, about their

:03:44.:03:46.

democratic record and about their civil liberties record and that's

:03:46.:03:55.

exactly what the Prime Minister's been doing this week. I sometimes

:03:55.:03:58.

think the Deputy Prime Minister would like to send me to a jungle

:03:58.:04:03.

in Australia for a month, but would he agree with me that one two

:04:03.:04:07.

different parties get together in the national interest to clear up

:04:07.:04:11.

the mess that Labour have left us, we are doing the right thing and in

:04:11.:04:15.

particular, driving unemployment down? Can I pick up one

:04:15.:04:24.

constituency, in Corby it went down 4.6% last month. For the first time

:04:24.:04:30.

in my Parliamentary career I wholeheartedly agree with him.

:04:30.:04:33.

Let's treasure this moment, because I suspect it will be very, very

:04:33.:04:38.

rare indeed, but like him, when I heard that the honourable member

:04:38.:04:43.

for Mid-Bedfordshire had been sent to a jungle to eat insects, I

:04:43.:04:50.

thought that despite the appearance of civil ilt, it indicates a new

:04:50.:04:55.

discipline in our Whips' Office. We are doing a great job together to

:04:55.:05:05.
:05:05.:05:12.

create jobs in the future and Nick Clegg without any notes taking

:05:12.:05:19.

on all-comers, almost thrown at the end by a friendly question! Not

:05:19.:05:26.

usually very friendly towards the be happy with that performance. He

:05:26.:05:28.

seemed particularly raoeuled by questions -- riled by questions

:05:28.:05:32.

from the Labour side. Harriet Harman began interestingly on the

:05:32.:05:36.

Leveson report, really saying - Labour have committed themselves to

:05:36.:05:39.

supporting whatever Leveson comes up with. Would the Deputy Prime

:05:39.:05:45.

Minister do the same, knowing that Mr Cameron has a few problems if

:05:45.:05:48.

Leveson comes out with statutory regulation. We are going to hear

:05:48.:05:52.

what our experts thought of it. We are going to hear from our e-mails

:05:52.:05:56.

first. They weren't overly impressed, the

:05:56.:06:01.

viewers. There were some who said, as David said, Nick Clegg seemed to

:06:01.:06:06.

handle himself well. Harriet Harman was clumsy in and the questions

:06:06.:06:10.

were too long. Bill in Doncaster, second division affair. Nick Clegg

:06:10.:06:18.

is not a patch on William Hague and Harriet Harman will insist on

:06:18.:06:22.

scripted jokes. Alan said, new faces at PMQs but same old

:06:22.:06:25.

accusations. It's Labour's fault after being half-way through a

:06:25.:06:29.

parliament when does this Government accept blame? Tom, after

:06:29.:06:35.

the opening gambit I thought what a pleasure to see a constructive and

:06:35.:06:39.

well-intentioned PMQs, within seconds it towards into a farce

:06:39.:06:43.

worse than any I have ever seen. This is not the face of British

:06:43.:06:46.

politics that should be seen throughout the world. Frederick

:06:46.:06:49.

said, is that a Deputy Prime Minister at the despatch box or a

:06:49.:06:53.

puppet version of David Cameron? If he reiterates any more of the

:06:53.:06:57.

ancient history about the mess Labour left behind, then he should

:06:57.:07:02.

be confined to a history book. Take that, Mr Clegg. The coalition's

:07:02.:07:05.

gone through a rough patch over House of Lords reform, over

:07:05.:07:09.

attitude to wind power, it's divided them, as well. There is a

:07:09.:07:12.

big issue looming in the autumn statement of where will the extra

:07:12.:07:16.

cuts come from, as well, and still the Lib Dems would like to see some

:07:16.:07:22.

extra tax on the very wealthy. Is Leveson now another issue that's

:07:22.:07:25.

going to divide the coalition? and potentially the most serious

:07:25.:07:32.

for them, I think. Leveson feels to me a bit like a car driving 100mph

:07:32.:07:35.

through a brick wall as far as this Government is concerned. Seems

:07:35.:07:38.

likely, of course we don't know, that Lord Justice Leveson will

:07:38.:07:44.

recommend what is a terrible phrase, statutory underpinning. Tphordz,

:07:44.:07:47.

instead -- in other words, instead of saying a new beefed up

:07:47.:07:51.

independent regulator, but one that the press itself as it were creates,

:07:51.:07:55.

that there should be something in law that at least says such a

:07:55.:07:59.

regulator must exist, that seems to be where the tension is. The Lib

:07:59.:08:03.

Dems clearly would support such an idea. It seems to me increasingly

:08:03.:08:06.

clear that the Conservative side of the coalition will not, although

:08:06.:08:10.

David Cameron's uttered nothing in public, we have seen Michael Gove

:08:10.:08:15.

rubbish the idea and Eric Pickles rubbish the idea. George Osborne

:08:15.:08:18.

would be reluctant about such an idea and David Cameron has to work

:08:18.:08:22.

out what does he do if he doesn't want to implement this, but Nick

:08:22.:08:25.

Clegg does want to implement it. It's going to be a real problem for

:08:25.:08:31.

them. Am I right in saying that the Labour position is now in favour of

:08:31.:08:34.

statutory regulation of the press? I think we think that if there is a

:08:34.:08:38.

way in which we can balance what we cherish, which is the freedom of

:08:38.:08:40.

press in this country compared to other places but have something

:08:40.:08:44.

that's tougher and may need statutory regulation that solves

:08:44.:08:48.

some of the issues that clearly in the past the Press Complaints

:08:48.:08:50.

Commission couldn't do that's something we should be open to

:08:50.:08:53.

discuss and we have to find some way that it's not just business as

:08:53.:08:57.

usual in the way the press has been regulated in the past. Is it not

:08:57.:09:04.

the case that Labour has committed Labour to supporting Leveson,

:09:04.:09:08.

whatever it comes up with. What Harriet actually said was about

:09:08.:09:13.

workable proposals and that - that's what we are looking for.

:09:13.:09:17.

Praing -- practical proposal that is get that balance. For statutory

:09:17.:09:20.

regulation. We do think as it was said there and I have to say there

:09:20.:09:23.

was cross-party agreement, we would like to move forward on a cross-

:09:23.:09:30.

party basis because this is such a big issue. It isn't a

:09:30.:09:32.

straightforward situation to regulate in terms of of protecting

:09:32.:09:36.

the freedoms of the press which are important. It can't be business as

:09:36.:09:41.

usual and we need tougher regulation. Is there a chance of

:09:41.:09:45.

cross-party approval? As Nick was saying, the opinion on the

:09:45.:09:48.

Conservative side seems to be against statutory regulation of the

:09:48.:09:52.

press? And for obvious reasons, because the idea of having a sort

:09:52.:09:58.

of law that says you the press can do this but can't do that, it

:09:58.:10:03.

raises hackles among all Democrats, I would have thought. In principle,

:10:03.:10:06.

there's no reason why it shouldn't proceed on a cross-party basis tpwu

:10:06.:10:09.

does seem, -- but it does seem, I understand Labour's position the

:10:09.:10:14.

same way do you, that whatever Leveson says, they will support.

:10:14.:10:20.

It's sensible to wait and see. I can agree that the Press Complaints

:10:20.:10:23.

Commission has not been ideal, it can't carry on as we have done.

:10:23.:10:30.

say the least! Quite. But there is clearly a way of doing better

:10:30.:10:33.

voluntary regulation and so on. Also, the fact that often gets

:10:33.:10:37.

forgotten is a lot of the worst behaviour of the press in the phone

:10:37.:10:41.

hacking scandal was actually illegal. We do have laws that can

:10:41.:10:45.

be used now because hacking people's phones and so on is

:10:45.:10:50.

breaking the law. Are the Conservatives not faced with a

:10:50.:10:55.

difficulty then if Justice Leveson, as seems likely, will come out for

:10:55.:10:58.

for statutory regulation? I suspect what he will come out with, I don't

:10:58.:11:01.

know any more than anybody else, is something that's slightly more

:11:01.:11:07.

complex. He is a very clever lawyer, therefore... The more complex the

:11:07.:11:11.

more lawyers get big fees. I am not being cynical about lawyers. I am!

:11:12.:11:16.

I am married to one. It's dangerous for me to be cynical about lawyers.

:11:16.:11:19.

I am also the Minister for Criminal Justice. I have a professional

:11:19.:11:23.

interest as well. The last thing we need is complexity. People want to

:11:23.:11:29.

know what their rights are with the press if, -- if the press press

:11:29.:11:34.

behaves, they believe, badly. problem with simplicity is when you

:11:34.:11:36.

try and define it in law, that does get difficult, that's why looking

:11:36.:11:40.

at the details of what Leveson says is a sensible approach. What we are

:11:40.:11:43.

seeing now at the moment is beginning of campaigns building up.

:11:43.:11:46.

There is a new campaign effectively funded and run by the press, it's

:11:46.:11:51.

in particular the Mail and Telegraph in the van guard, for

:11:51.:11:55.

obvious reasons News International don't want to be out tpropb on this

:11:55.:12:03.

issue -- front on this issue. Against any statutory regulation.

:12:03.:12:06.

Interestingly, we are getting the role of the Select Committee on

:12:06.:12:10.

culture media and sport interesting on this, the Tory chairman is

:12:10.:12:14.

opposed. He is supporting the newspapers and opposing statutory

:12:14.:12:19.

regulation. So expect this one to be a real, real fight. The only

:12:19.:12:24.

possible way through I can see for David Cameron, if he wants to be as

:12:24.:12:28.

it were calculated about it, if he thinks that Lord Justice Leveson

:12:28.:12:31.

comes up with a specific idea, all tb not the central one, which is

:12:31.:12:35.

impractical or regarded as silly, in a sense he tries to divert

:12:35.:12:38.

attention and say look at this, this isn't going to work, use the

:12:38.:12:42.

Select Committee perhaps who have talked of having their own hearings

:12:42.:12:45.

into regulation, even the possibility that they call Lord

:12:45.:12:50.

Justice Leveson to give evidence before them about what his own

:12:50.:12:55.

proposals - you can just see how a Government - there's no way David

:12:55.:12:59.

Cameron can dismiss this report. What he is going to be thinking is

:12:59.:13:04.

what do I do to get out of it? we believe that the Leveson will be

:13:04.:13:08.

published before the autumn statement on December... By end of

:13:08.:13:11.

November I am told is the plan. After that he's run out of time. He

:13:11.:13:15.

can't do it the week of the autumn statement. Exactly. By the end of

:13:15.:13:18.

November. It was what I was told yesterday and would you expect him

:13:18.:13:22.

to have his own news conference and to publish his report. But usually

:13:22.:13:25.

the authors of these reports, particularly when they're judges,

:13:25.:13:29.

don't expect to then get themselves dragged in for interviews, let

:13:29.:13:33.

alone a Select Committee hearing in order to justify their proposals.

:13:33.:13:36.

Usually they put them on the table and leave the scene, as it were and

:13:36.:13:45.

lobby privately. A final point, the Tory eurosceptics gave Mr Clegg...

:13:45.:13:51.

A clean ride? Mark Reckless had a sarcastic question about who would

:13:51.:13:55.

replace Kathy Ashton, the joke was maybe you, Nick Clegg. Actually the

:13:56.:14:01.

timings don't work for Mr Clegg to take that job even if he fancies it

:14:01.:14:05.

as an escape route. And that last question, a man who's constantly

:14:05.:14:15.
:14:15.:14:17.

attacked the coalition. That was about the by-election!

:14:17.:14:25.

Nick, thanks to you for being here. Now it may not quite have the

:14:25.:14:28.

pazazz of the US presidential race, but voters in England and Wales

:14:28.:14:31.

have elections of their own coming up in just a week.

:14:31.:14:34.

Yes, next Thursday they'll be choosing the first ever Police and

:14:34.:14:36.

Crime Commissioners. Intended to make the police more

:14:36.:14:38.

accountable to the public, they've been described by one senior

:14:38.:14:42.

officer as the biggest change to policing since 1829.

:14:42.:14:45.

There are 193 candidates standing for the 41 police forces of England

:14:45.:14:52.

and Wales, excluding London where the mayor already acts as PCC.

:14:52.:14:55.

It was expected that a lot of those candidates would be independent,

:14:55.:15:00.

and 53 are running without the support of a party. But of the main

:15:00.:15:02.

parties, the Conservatives and Labour have put up candidates in

:15:02.:15:08.

all areas, while the Liberal democrats are fielding 24. UKIP

:15:08.:15:11.

also have 24 candidates hoping to enter office, while the English

:15:11.:15:17.

Democrats have 5 and the Green Party 1. A full list of candidates

:15:17.:15:27.
:15:27.:15:28.

can be found on the BBC website. Joining us now is the cross-bench

:15:28.:15:34.

peer and former senior civil servant Michael Bichard. Much of

:15:34.:15:37.

the criticism seems to be police will focus on antisocial behaviour,

:15:37.:15:40.

for example, what's wrong with that? I don't think anything

:15:40.:15:46.

particularly wrong with that. One of my aerpb concerns is -- my

:15:46.:15:50.

concerns is whether they do that in a co-operative way F you elect an

:15:50.:15:53.

commissioner they're going to want to establish profile, their

:15:53.:15:58.

identity, their own organisation at a time when we need them too be --

:15:58.:16:01.

to be co-operating with other agencies. Look at what happened in

:16:01.:16:04.

Rochdale around child protection when that didn't work well. That

:16:04.:16:07.

worries me. It also worries me whether they're going to co-operate

:16:07.:16:10.

with national forces as effectively as they need to. The police don't

:16:10.:16:14.

have a great track record. That's the crux of matter, how do you stop

:16:14.:16:17.

a police and crime commissioner interfering, if you like, and

:16:18.:16:21.

putting their stamp on an area without taking operational matters

:16:21.:16:26.

away from the police. They are obliged by law to co-operate

:16:26.:16:29.

nationally for the first time we have introduced a strategic

:16:29.:16:33.

policing requirement so for for things like counterterrorism or

:16:33.:16:37.

moving police around if there are riots riots or something there is a

:16:37.:16:41.

requirement to do so. Rochdale is an interesting example because we

:16:41.:16:45.

are seeing - we have these inquiries going on into historic

:16:45.:16:49.

problems, that actually now you have got a democratically elected

:16:49.:16:53.

person who is responsible for overseeing the police force, not

:16:53.:16:56.

running the police force but overseeing it, it will, I hope, be

:16:56.:17:00.

much less likely that things can go on that seem to have gone on in the

:17:00.:17:09.

Where do you draw the line of priorities that are going to be

:17:09.:17:12.

given to the commissioner on operational matters?

:17:12.:17:16.

commissioner will provide the plans and say that he wants to

:17:16.:17:21.

concentrate on drugs in these areas or something like and the Chief

:17:21.:17:26.

Constable says, "OK, fine. I'll allocate officers this way." It

:17:26.:17:29.

won't be the commissioner allocating the officers. If they

:17:29.:17:33.

are saying they want to concentrate on drugs, clamping down on drugs or

:17:33.:17:39.

more police on the beat, or every reported crime should be vez gaited,

:17:39.:17:47.

how does that -- investigated, how does that that not impact on

:17:47.:17:49.

operating areas? They will both obviously have a continuing

:17:49.:17:52.

dialogue about that. But that is healthy, because that's what is

:17:52.:17:56.

suppose today happen now. It just happens with police authorities and

:17:56.:18:00.

the reason - What's the difference? The difference is that we are now

:18:00.:18:02.

discussing it. Nobody in the country can name their Police

:18:02.:18:06.

Authority chair. We have discovered that 7% of people in the country

:18:06.:18:10.

have ever heard of police authorities. There is supposed to

:18:10.:18:13.

be an accountibility mechanism, but this will work. My concern is how

:18:14.:18:19.

do we make them work and reduce the risk. One of the risks I believe is

:18:19.:18:26.

here is that we are going to need clever and good commissioners to

:18:26.:18:31.

avoid problems. If you decide that you want to put more money into

:18:31.:18:34.

burglary when there is no further sources around that comes from

:18:34.:18:37.

somewhere. You'll have to reduce the work you are doing on road

:18:37.:18:41.

traffic. That seems to me to take you into the operational area. I'm

:18:41.:18:46.

not saying we should have these. I'm saying there are some things on

:18:46.:18:49.

the first day that the commissioners look at and one of

:18:49.:18:54.

them is how to avoid the whole thing becoming politicised.

:18:54.:18:59.

Normally people say you are taking your party's view and they won't,

:18:59.:19:02.

but they'll take an independent view, but if you just said you are

:19:02.:19:05.

going to take all the traffic officers away and concentrate on

:19:05.:19:08.

something else, you have got to justify yourself to the people in

:19:08.:19:12.

four years' time and if there's been a massive increase in traffic

:19:12.:19:19.

accidents, then that will act as a contraipbt. It's a constrapbt --

:19:19.:19:23.

constraint. It's a constraint that all politicians have to face.

:19:23.:19:27.

Balls said that it raises the prospect of a politician telling a

:19:27.:19:30.

Chief Constable how to do their job in one way or another, but Labour

:19:31.:19:35.

candidates, if they get elected and I'm thinking of one big personality

:19:35.:19:38.

in particular, are we saying he'll not try to tell the Chief Constable

:19:38.:19:44.

what to do? It's about how the thing -- things work out. It's how

:19:45.:19:48.

the relations evolve. What is disappointing, to be honest, given

:19:48.:19:52.

that the Government decided they want to pursue this route, I feel

:19:52.:19:54.

that they've put very little effort into developing the discussion

:19:54.:19:58.

about what the relationship should be. I've been out in different

:19:58.:20:02.

parts of the country and a lot of the members of the public their

:20:02.:20:06.

first question is, what is this meant to achieve? The Government,

:20:06.:20:11.

given that they put such political capital behind this role, I think

:20:11.:20:16.

thea haven't invested in -- they haven't invested in making these

:20:16.:20:19.

real to the public. That's why they are talking about low turnout and

:20:19.:20:22.

why so many members of the public are not sure what this is about.

:20:22.:20:25.

Would Labour keep them? What we would have to see how the roles

:20:25.:20:28.

develop. The truth is we are standing candidates. How the role

:20:28.:20:33.

develops, I think is something we can look over in the next couple of

:20:33.:20:35.

years. We have an independent commission looking at policing, so

:20:35.:20:41.

the jury's out on that. In terms of a democratic mandate, if you take

:20:42.:20:45.

the accusation that you haven't done much to communicate to the

:20:45.:20:49.

public, they are not talking about it in all the pubs around the

:20:49.:20:55.

country. The turnout will be low. Firstly, I think that would have

:20:55.:20:58.

been much truer the fact that nobody knew about it a couple of

:20:58.:21:07.

months ago. I go out a lot. And a lot more people know. We have the

:21:07.:21:10.

website and what is interesting that the website has had more than

:21:10.:21:14.

one million hits with all the people on it. If gou to the website

:21:14.:21:22.

and I -- you go to website and you want the hard copy, more than

:21:22.:21:27.

100,000 people have got the literature. What would be

:21:27.:21:31.

unacceptable for you in terms of turnout? If it fell below 20% t

:21:32.:21:36.

would be difficult to say they've got a mandate. There are members of

:21:36.:21:40.

the House of Commons who are elected with 20%. This is a new

:21:40.:21:46.

election and you would hope there would be a spirit. On the target

:21:46.:21:51.

basis, does it matter? It does matter a little, because legitimacy

:21:51.:21:55.

matters and these are new posts and it would have been better to

:21:55.:22:00.

encourage a higher turnout, but I would rather look forward than

:22:00.:22:03.

having the political knock-about. Don't say that. That's our trade.

:22:03.:22:07.

But these guys will be there the day after the election. One of the

:22:07.:22:10.

things that worries me, you have one commissioner for the whole of

:22:10.:22:13.

Kent or Gloucestershire, which is where I live and they really are

:22:13.:22:18.

going to have to work very, very hard to make sure that they are

:22:18.:22:21.

consulting right across the patch, so that the decisions are seen to

:22:21.:22:25.

be made fairly across those counties. That is going to be

:22:25.:22:28.

difficult. That may, over time, ensure that people get to know the

:22:28.:22:32.

commissioners much more than we do now. I think we could have managed

:22:32.:22:36.

the process up until this point better. We could have done more to

:22:36.:22:38.

help independent members to come forward and there were some

:22:38.:22:43.

discussions about that, that didn't materialise. I think we could have

:22:43.:22:50.

done more in terms of information. We didn't. Thank you. Viewers in

:22:50.:22:54.

England and Wales can see a special programme Police Elections 2012

:22:54.:23:01.

tonight at 7.30 on BBC One. 100% of the votes have been counted in

:23:01.:23:07.

Florida. President Obama is 0.5% ahead of Mitt Romney. 45,000 votes

:23:07.:23:11.

in it in the state where over eight million votes were cast. There

:23:11.:23:20.

could be in challenges to that. Not that will affect the outcome.

:23:20.:23:26.

many in terms of electoral college seats? 29. Yes, they are going to

:23:26.:23:30.

President Obama. Whilst we are been talking it's been announced that

:23:30.:23:36.

the famous Boris bikes in London are going up. They are will cost

:23:36.:23:41.

twice as much. They'll double in annual fee. An interesting morning

:23:41.:23:47.

to announce that! The backbench Conservative MP, the woman who

:23:47.:23:51.

accused the Chancellor and Prime Minister of not knowing the price

:23:51.:23:55.

of milk, Nadine Dorries, she has jetted off to Australia to appear

:23:55.:24:00.

in some ITV show I've never heard of. It's called I'm a Celebrity,

:24:00.:24:10.
:24:10.:24:14.

Get Me Out of Here. If you've heard of it, she has had a good offer,

:24:14.:24:18.

but do you think she should be there rather than working for the

:24:18.:24:22.

people in the Commons? I don't think she should, but I think it's

:24:22.:24:27.

stupid anyway. That's my opinion. I think she should be deducted her

:24:27.:24:32.

money from being an MP if she is doing something else and she is not

:24:32.:24:36.

there in the Houses of Parliament. I don't think a great deal of her,

:24:36.:24:43.

because she doesn't seem to be interested in the politics. She

:24:43.:24:47.

only -- she is only interested in herself. Hopefully she'll have a

:24:47.:24:50.

good time and decide that that's the place she wants to settle down.

:24:50.:24:54.

I don't think it's the right type of thing for her profession. I

:24:54.:24:57.

wouldn't have thought it doesn't give you much respect for her as a

:24:57.:25:00.

Conservative Party MP and I wouldn't think that was a good idea

:25:00.:25:06.

for her to be there. Some of Nadine Dorries's constituents there. The

:25:06.:25:09.

Conservative Chief Whip, who has only been in the job a few weeks,

:25:09.:25:11.

he's suspended Nadine Dorries and asked her to come to explain

:25:11.:25:18.

herself if and with she gets voted off the show. We are joined by one

:25:18.:25:21.

of her now former Conservative colleagues, Zac Goldsmith. Welcome

:25:21.:25:26.

to the programme. What do you think should happen to Nadine Dorries?

:25:26.:25:30.

Well, I don't think it should be up to us. I think the only people who

:25:30.:25:34.

can judge whether or not she is a good and worthwhile MP are her

:25:35.:25:37.

constituents. If I was a constituent I would be annoyed. I

:25:37.:25:43.

would share that view. It's got to be up to them. The whip - it's an

:25:43.:25:47.

area where the whip cannot take an informed decision. What happens if

:25:47.:25:49.

an MP treats recess like a long holiday or don't have surgeries

:25:49.:25:53.

when they are supposed to? Or don't turn up to Parliament or abstain

:25:53.:25:58.

too much? Where do you draw the line and when is it acceptable and

:25:58.:26:01.

not? It has to be arbitrary if the whip is involved. The only answer

:26:01.:26:05.

is to empower local voters to make that decision and you can only do

:26:05.:26:09.

that by introducing recall, which if you remember, was promised by

:26:09.:26:12.

all three parties before the last election and which has been more or

:26:12.:26:16.

less dropped. The Government will tell you it hasn't, but it has. The

:26:16.:26:18.

version that is still lingering in Parliament is not recall. It's

:26:19.:26:22.

called recall, but it's not. Instead of handing power to voters,

:26:22.:26:28.

it hands up to a committee. It's a hopeless piece of legislation. We

:26:28.:26:33.

need recall. That is the answer. Why can't we have recall when MPs

:26:33.:26:37.

behave so clearly against the will of the people? It hasn't been

:26:37.:26:42.

dropped. There are two separate issues. You withdraw the whip which

:26:42.:26:46.

someone has made it clear they are not going to support the Government

:26:46.:26:48.

and you tell the whips' office that you are swanning off for a month

:26:49.:26:51.

and then it's clear you are not going to be there. What about

:26:51.:26:54.

recall in It's a different thing, because one of the reasons it's

:26:54.:26:58.

taking so long and there is a draft bill on the table, is that you

:26:58.:27:05.

obviously want to avoid the point where a single-issue pressure group

:27:05.:27:09.

can get together, because someone holds a view. They do that in the

:27:09.:27:14.

states. You make the bar a certain level. Ultimately it's the next

:27:14.:27:19.

election, recall. It's not, because if you exist in the safe Tory seat

:27:19.:27:23.

with a 25,000 majority, voters are not going to vote Labour. They

:27:23.:27:27.

never have historically. They'll vote for the best they have, which

:27:27.:27:34.

is the party they have. It would also apply to a Labour seat. If you

:27:34.:27:39.

want to replace your bad Tory MP with a good one, you can't do it

:27:39.:27:43.

without recall. If Denis MacShane, for example, who stood down from

:27:43.:27:47.

Parliament, having done bad things, but having done good things -

:27:47.:27:52.

Supposing he hadn't, there would be recall. Suppose there had been

:27:52.:27:56.

recall. One of the things in the draft bill is the thought that

:27:56.:27:58.

instead of suspension from the Commons which is what the committee

:27:58.:28:02.

did, they recommended a recall. I just don't know whether he could

:28:02.:28:07.

have been recalled. If he wasn't recalled, if an MP behaves badly in

:28:07.:28:13.

our eyes, but their constituents, not enough of them merits a recall,

:28:13.:28:17.

that's democracy. Terry Fields went to jail because of the poll tax. He

:28:17.:28:27.
:28:27.:28:29.

was a hero. Are Labour in favour? Yes, we are. Can you press that

:28:29.:28:39.
:28:39.:28:40.

button, as we have to choose Guess the Year. Who is it? There he is.

:28:40.:28:48.

The year was 1955. Anthony Eden was re-elected as Prime Minister with a

:28:48.:28:52.

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn are joined by Home Office Minister Damian Green and Shadow Cabinet Minister Caroline Flint to discuss the latest political news including reaction to the US election result.

The Guess the Year competition closes at 12.30pm during the live broadcast of this programme.


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