09/11/2012 Daily Politics


09/11/2012

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn present the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Afternoon, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics. After the Prime

:00:44.:00:48.

Minister's uncomfortable moment on the This Morning sofa, that will

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teach him, is he right to warn of a witch-hunt or is this the start of

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a backlash against claims of abuse? The former Tory grandee who was

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named was linked with the abuse at this children's home in north Wales,

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he publicly denies the allegations. We will have the latest. And a new

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archbishop, a former oil executive who went to Eton, of course, but

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where does Justin Welby stand and gay marriage, women bishops and

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those ungodly bankers? We will look at the politics of the posh primate

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in Lambeth. Cut the backlog of cases at the Border Agency mean an

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amnesty for some illegal immigrants? We will talk to the

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chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee, he says it might. And we

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report from Corby, scene of the latest by-election following the

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:01:46.:01:48.

So a veritable pot-pourri over the next 60 minutes, whatever that

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means, all coming up in public service broadcasting at its finest!

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With us for the duration, George Parker of the Financial Times and

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Carla Buzasi, editor-in-chief of the Huffington Post, a website, the

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Huffington Post! The Financial Times is becoming a website. Let

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start with the latest skirmish in the phoney war over press

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regulation, the publication of the Leveson report is expected by the

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end of the month. This morning over 40 Conservative MPs and peers wrote

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to the Guardian of all papers to express their support for some sort

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of independent regulation of the press. Now, it is not clear exactly

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what they favour, but they are explicit that self-regulation as

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exists now is no longer an option. And that is a position which

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contrasts with many other Conservatives in their party. This

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report is going to split the Tories, isn't it? Yeah, I think it is, and

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we are seeing the first manifestation of that with his

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letter to the Guardian, because the signs are that David Cameron is

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torn on this, he might favour a slightly stronger regulation, but

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the press is breathing down his neck, the Daily Mail group, saying

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that any sort of statutory underpinning of this independent

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regulatory system amounts to the licensing of journalists. My

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newspaper is among those which thinks that is a slippery slope.

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The Financial Times is against... I got told off by a lawyer for

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calling it statutory regulation, but any kind of state underpinning

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of the regulation. You can see why this debate has arisen, because if

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you have an independent regulator and some people they do not want to

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abide by its rulings, particularly in the case of the Express group,

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do you need to have some sort of state backing to ensure that people

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signed up to the new code? And yet Labour has committed itself to

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Leveson's recommendations before they even know what they are. But

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if Labour is in favour, I expect a lot of Lib Dems will want to go

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down that road, too. That puts the Conservatives more in the spotlight.

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I think they are in the spotlight, but Cameron has got himself into

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this. I do not think he ever realised how long it would take,

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how foolish certain senior members would end up looking through it,

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and at the end of it we are effectively still in the same mess

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that we were when we started. Nothing clear is coming out of it.

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Hopefully when you finally publishers, he will have something

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to recommend, but I do not think it is clear how it is going to go.

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Cameron is between a rock and a hard place, isn't he? I get the

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impression listening to him that he would rather avoid statutory

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regulation is the can, and he has not got any friends in the Tory

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press, but he knows that the press does not like it, the Guardian does

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not like it, the Financial Times, two left-of-centre paper will stop

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we do not like it! It is not going to happen if the Huffington Post UK

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does not like it! But the public opinion does not like the press at

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the moment, they did not like what they heard that Leveson, and he

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will be under pressure from Labour, the Lib Dems, public opinion in

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general, Hugh Grant and other famous folk to do something about

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it. I think anything which smacks of the press being in the last-

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chance saloon again, giving them one last chance, will not wash with

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the public. The public wants something that guarantees them

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redress. We have drunk at the last- chance saloon and directed other

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way out! I think that is the problem. We saw an interesting

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debate in the Commons this week when Nick Clegg said it had to

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progress with cross-party support, because the Labour Party are in

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favour of some kind of statutory basis for this, the Liberal

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Democrats are, quite a few members of the Conservative Party. That is

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a majority. What an online news and opinion provider like the

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Huffington Post, would that be covered by Leveson? Oh I appeared

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in front of Leveson, and it was probably about... Did you know what

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it was? We are a member of the PCC, we are the only 100% digital media

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organisation... New volunteer. did, and it was important to us,

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because I and my team believe that the code of practice is sensible,

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but also... You know, we want to be seen as trustworthy, and this was a

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statement to that effect. I think he will see digital publications,

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not all of them, the want to be seen alongside a... Part of the

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mainstream. Absolutely. My sources say by the end of November. Yes,

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the same thing, by the end of November. Then there will be a big

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row, then there would be the ordnance datum -- the Autumn

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Statement, then it will die over Christmas, then it will come back.

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I think the political story will run and run.

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A Conservative peer, Lord McAlpine, was a major fundraiser for Margaret

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Thatcher in the 1980s. Indeed, he regarded himself as her bag man.

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His memoirs are called Once a Jolly bagman. He has vehemently denied

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the abuse of children at a care home in north Wales in the 1970s.

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His name had been bandied around, along with many other

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unsubstantiated allegations, on what we call the into Web. Our

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political correspondent Carole Walker can tell us more. This came

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out after the breakfast TV shows, what does it tell us? Well, an

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interesting and bold decision by Lord McAlpine to act to try to

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clear his name after days are speculation which he himself

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describes as a media frenzy. Now, this goes back to last Friday, when

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the Newsnight programme ran allegations from a victim of child

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abuse, Steve Messham, who says that he was abused in these care homes

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in Wrexham by a senior Conservative dating back to the Conservative era.

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Since then, there has been a huge amount of speculation linking Lord

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McAlpine to that allegation, and today he says there is a media

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frenzy, I have to expect that an editor will soon come under

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pressure to misnaming me, and he has decided that he must publicly

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tackle the slurs and set the record straight. Now, he says very

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specifically that he had only ever been to Wrexham once, that was in

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his role within the Conservative Party, he was accompanied by a

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party agent. He said that he had never stayed in a hotel nearby, he

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did not have a Rolls-Royce, where some of this is alleged to have

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happened. He says specifically, I did not sexually abused any

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resident of the children's home in Wrexham. He goes on, interestingly

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enough, to express strong sympathy for people who have been victims of

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abuse. He describes it as abhorrent. And it also says that he does not

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accuse Steve Messham of any kind of malicious intent. He simply thinks

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that if he believes Lord McAlpine was the man who abused him all the

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years ago, I can only suggest he is mistaken and he has identified the

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wrong person. So interestingly, such a senior figure from the past

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has decided that the only way to confront these allegations is to

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come out publicly, to try to clear his name, and the risk is of course

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that his name and his picture are then going to be up there in the

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newspapers, but he has clearly decided he cannot let the innuendo

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continue. All right, thank you for bringing us up to date. His

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statement comes after the story in the garden this morning which also

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named Lord McAlpine, saying that they believed Newsnight had got the

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wrong man, although they did not name him on Newsnight. But there

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was another McAlpine who may have been in a frame, it all gets very

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muddied and complicated, and those allegations of abuse in North Wales

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followed the revelations about Jimmy Savile, and before that the

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convictions for child remain in Rochdale. It seems that sexual

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abuse, child abuse is everywhere when you turn on the news these

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days, but is it really true? Is there a danger that the pursuit of

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abuses is turning into a witch-hunt led by usually anonymous people on

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the internet? Are innocent people being placed under suspicion, wild

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accusations flying around cyberspace with very little

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evidence ever produced to back them up? This is what David Cameron had

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to say when he was on ITV's programme yesterday. This is one of

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the problems, I have heard all sorts of names being bandied around,

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and everyone sits around and speculates about people, and on a

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second, some of whom are alive, some of whom are dead, and I think

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it is very important that anyone has any information at any

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paedophile, no matter how high up in the community, alive or dead, go

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to the police. This is very important... A cursory glance at

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the internet, it took me about three minutes last night to

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continually find a list of the same names. I have those names there,

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those are the names on a piece of paper. You know the names on the

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piece of paper, will you be speaking to those people? This is

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really important, right? There is a danger, if we are not careful, that

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this could turn into a sort of witch hunt, particularly against

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people Bouake. And I am worried about the sort of things you are

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doing right now, giving me a list of names who have taken off the

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internet. We are joined now by David Aaronovitch of the Times, who

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yesterday wrote a column about the dangers of a witch-hunt, and by

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Holly Dustin, director of End Violence Against Women. Welcome to

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both of you. David, you think there is the whiff of a witch-hunt around

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this. I think there is a danger, there is a right way and a wrong

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way to do this. The right way is what Keir Starmer did when he

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looked at what was happening in Rochdale and said, we have to look

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at police practice and review police practice in dealing with

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allegations of abuse by vulnerable people. That was the correct way to

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do it. Then the incorrect way, the worst way, and that is what we saw

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from Phillips Schofield, and frankly I think we saw a Newsnight

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the other night when they put up Steve Messham to make an allegation

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which was referring to somebody whom the Guardian then said later,

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name does not actually being responsible, which brings up the

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question of how it was that he was misidentified in the first place

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and what that Ms identification means. Then there are the claims

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which have been made in Parliament and elsewhere that there is a

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powerful network of paedophiles in the political sphere who wait to be

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uncovered, and for which there appears to be no evidence

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whatsoever. I can tell you that my Twitter Fiat is full of people who

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believe there is and that failures of past enquiries mean that

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anything is possible. -- Twitter feed. People look at the Olympics

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go feel and say, yes, he knows something, he is an official

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journalist. -- Philip Schofield. I think it was outrageous, the kind

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of self-righteous way in which he presented a completely useless and

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ridiculous list to the Prime Minister in that way, as if to say,

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look at me! It took me at least three minutes to get the list!

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There is clearly a problem with the way that the media is dealing with

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these issues, and what we saw yesterday was not acceptable.

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not just the media, might with their feet is full of the same

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things. It is the same with social media, we are burying our head in

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the sands. You only have to look at the sentencing for the people who

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named the rape victim in the Ched Evans case to know that there is a

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big issue with social media. But look, we have got a situation where

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we have got an unprecedented number of women, mainly, and some men

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coming forward to say they were abused in the past, they were

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silenced, dismissed, not listened to, finally having the courage to

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come forward because of what we are seeing in the media. But I think,

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you know, talking about a witch- hunts, talking about people making

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up allegations is the wrong message to be sending. We need to be saying,

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we believe you, there is support out there, we need to be going

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through due process and the courts system if that is what people want

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to be doing. But you are right to raise a concern, but the concern is

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about the media, not people making up abuse, because there is no

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evidence that there are higher numbers of false allegations in

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relation to rape cases, for example, than other crimes. Let me bring

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David in to reply to that. entirely agree that there have been

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a lot of people out there and continue to be people who are not

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believed and not heard. I cannot think it is true, unfortunately,

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that there are no false allegations, and probably no more so than in

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other spheres, but this is where people are zeroing in so hard that

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those false allegations gained a kind of attraction that they do not

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in other spheres of life. I honestly believe that, we could

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privately go through some of the allegations that have been made and

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I could convince you that there was a very big problem with some of the

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allegations that have been made and I have looked at the evidence and

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so has the government, because they want to give anonymity. They found

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there was no evidence to make that policy change. We know only about

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or one in 10 they put victims report to the police because they

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feel they will be not believed and so on. I just wonder, experts on

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sexual violence, primarily perpetrated by men against women

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and some boys, this is very common, it is in every community, in homes

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and towns and cities. Which makes it all the harder to find out.

:15:54.:15:57.

not as their historic problem. I wonder whether the scale of what

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we're looking at is whether this is where the backlash is coming from.

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Why do some men choose to abuse? Rape? I would like you to write a

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column about that. I have written. Do you believe the claims,

:16:18.:16:23.

substance to the claims, that there is some kind of high powered

:16:23.:16:28.

paedophile ring at the heart of Westminster? I haven't looked in

:16:28.:16:33.

detail at those claims. There are certainly some men who sexually

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abuse in networks, some men who abuse on their own. You don't think

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there is evidence to justify an investigation into a Westminster

:16:40.:16:47.

network? I think we need to join up all these inquiries and look at the

:16:47.:16:51.

scale of sexual violence and abuse in this country. And how we support

:16:51.:16:58.

victims. It's a real problem with joining up the inquiries. A judge

:16:58.:17:04.

lead judicial inquiry, we would be here for 25 years. Also the victims

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would be dead. We already have a problem with historic abuse and

:17:09.:17:13.

deciding what has happened with that because stories change and

:17:13.:17:21.

develop and so on and most claims are not malicious. Each time we

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have had a reiteration of a major child abuse scare, and so on, which

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is good it comes forward, unfortunately, we've had a malign

:17:31.:17:36.

element which has gone off on a tangent. We had it during the

:17:36.:17:43.

satanic ritual abuse claims and so on which led to the situation in

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Nottingham. Why can't we go from taking these things seriously

:17:48.:17:53.

without having to go to the witch hunt element which becomes a

:17:53.:18:02.

problem. If you have an over arching inquiry, what chance to

:18:02.:18:11.

mind was the Sunday bloody Sunday inquiry. It cost �250 million. It

:18:11.:18:17.

took over 12 years to report. problem is, it's very easy to say,

:18:17.:18:21.

this was a problem at the BBC Light Entertainment department in the

:18:21.:18:26.

1970s and Eighties, which frankly it was not. I don't think anybody

:18:26.:18:32.

said that. It's happening now. It's very common. 60,000 women in this

:18:32.:18:39.

country are raped each year. No one is denying that. Least of all David.

:18:39.:18:46.

I think his point is, because of the cacophony of sound coming out

:18:46.:18:50.

with accusations being made almost every day, the chances of really

:18:50.:18:55.

getting to the truth are becoming more difficult. There is a real

:18:55.:18:58.

issue with how the media reports with this issue and with libel and

:18:59.:19:04.

social media and those issues. is the mainstream media done wrong?

:19:04.:19:08.

The we look at what happened yesterday with Phillip Schofield.

:19:08.:19:15.

You think that was wrong? That's not helpful. The danger here is,

:19:15.:19:21.

there are clearly major child abuse accusations both historic and

:19:21.:19:25.

current to answer. But they are now being wrapped in a smoke of every

:19:25.:19:30.

morning, fresh accusations without evidence. There is also a danger

:19:30.:19:34.

the internet is bad and everything about the internet is bad. You

:19:34.:19:39.

might expect that to come from me. And the print media and additional

:19:39.:19:46.

media is good. This was a mainstream television programme of.

:19:46.:19:50.

We have got to be very careful. Rumours fly around the internet all

:19:51.:19:54.

the time of the also at the heart of this is something very, very

:19:54.:19:58.

serious and people need to be brought to account whether they

:19:58.:20:03.

work at Westminster or look after children in care. I think this is

:20:03.:20:07.

the start, isn't it? The fact of the matter is, as these inquiries

:20:07.:20:12.

unfold, we will learn a lot about what's going on of. It's still

:20:12.:20:17.

going on today. In the Seventies and Eighties, it wasn't just a few

:20:17.:20:22.

people are turning a blind eye to it but a large part of society.

:20:22.:20:27.

turned a blind eye to it in Rochdale. Girls were going to

:20:27.:20:30.

school clearly vulnerable, smelling of alcohol, and clearly showing

:20:31.:20:36.

signs of abuse and vulnerability and they were written off as being

:20:36.:20:41.

consenting to be involved in prostitution. I think this is where

:20:41.:20:45.

I'm concerned about what chance for so I don't think we should close

:20:45.:20:49.

the door to a conversation that needs to happen. I think the witch

:20:49.:20:54.

hunt closes the door and that's why I think we have got to satisfy a

:20:54.:20:58.

proper standards of evidence and complaint because, if we don't,

:20:58.:21:01.

people will get the idea that none of this is true. And then you have

:21:01.:21:08.

the problem You are talking about. Where does the story go from here?

:21:08.:21:12.

This atmosphere will build and build and build because they have

:21:12.:21:17.

been several suggestions of different people, who won not the

:21:17.:21:24.

person and people agree. -- who are not the person. Not named. As long

:21:24.:21:29.

as that continues, this story will have the social meaning elsewhere.

:21:29.:21:34.

After something has been said enough, on the internet, there

:21:35.:21:40.

comes up point when people say, it's out there. There is no

:21:40.:21:45.

stopping it in that sense. We have to begin to come down a bit.

:21:45.:21:48.

think what we need to do is encourage victims to come forward

:21:48.:21:52.

and survivors and say, you will be supported and not dismissed and you

:21:52.:21:58.

will be believed. You can't do that until you know they are victims.

:21:58.:22:03.

There is due process a but most of it turns out actually that they

:22:03.:22:06.

don't report to the police, said they won support services, we'd

:22:06.:22:15.

Up yes, to the right people. Don't go inside your story to a newspaper.

:22:15.:22:25.
:22:25.:22:27.

Don't tell everybody. There was a horrific video uploaded to YouTube

:22:27.:22:31.

about her father abusing her, and it is tragic watching this poor

:22:31.:22:36.

girl, tears streaming down her face, but they need to know places they

:22:36.:22:40.

can go to speak to, rather than broadcasting it everywhere. We will

:22:40.:22:47.

return to this but, for the moment, thank you. Now, the waiting is over,

:22:47.:22:50.

the internal wrangling concluded and the white smoke has appeared

:22:50.:22:54.

from the chimney. Oh, wait a minute, I've got my churches mixed up. For

:22:54.:22:57.

it is not a Pope that we proclaim this morning, but a new Archbishop

:22:57.:23:00.

of Canterbury. His name is Justin Welby and he's an ex-oil executive

:23:00.:23:08.

who has only been a bishop for a year. Cannot be right? He has

:23:08.:23:13.

probably read the Financial Times. Let's hear from the man himself. He

:23:13.:23:17.

was quick to address one of the most controversial issues in his

:23:17.:23:21.

newly elevated in box. Same-sex marriages and his opposition to

:23:21.:23:27.

them. What the Church does here deeply affects the already greatly

:23:27.:23:33.

suffering churches in places like Nigeria. I support the House of

:23:33.:23:36.

Bishops statement in the summer in answer to the Government's

:23:36.:23:41.

consultation on same-sex marriage. But I also know I need to listen

:23:41.:23:46.

very attentively to the LG Beattie community, and examine my own

:23:46.:23:54.

thinking carefully. I am always adverse to the language of

:23:54.:23:58.

exclusion, when what we are called to his two lava in the same way as

:23:58.:24:03.

Jesus Christ loves us. In the church, we need to create safe

:24:03.:24:12.

spaces for these issues to be discussed in honesty and in love.

:24:12.:24:19.

We are joined by the Second Church Estates Commissioner. Who was the

:24:19.:24:25.

first? Andrew Smith. You're playing second fiddle to a journalist?

:24:25.:24:33.

That's the way it works. And Giles Fraser former Canon at St Paul's

:24:33.:24:39.

and now a vicar in South London. He's now a vicar. What kind of man

:24:39.:24:44.

is the new bishop? It's good news for the Church. I think he is a

:24:44.:24:49.

people person. I think he will be a good leader, clear leadership. I

:24:49.:24:53.

think one saw that there, he will listen but also lead, and I think

:24:53.:24:56.

he will be keen to ensure the Church of England becomes a

:24:56.:25:03.

national voice. A church for the nation and it has a presence.

:25:03.:25:07.

can it be a church for the nation that hardly anybody goes to it?

:25:07.:25:13.

That is what he will want to do. I think Justin Welby in the next 20

:25:13.:25:18.

years will want to ensure that the Church becomes a Church of growth.

:25:18.:25:23.

Not just obsessed by sex. I think the Church of England in the last

:25:23.:25:29.

couple of years, for some time, has been obsessed by it sex and its own

:25:29.:25:34.

internal issues. And there's two jobs for him to do, to hold the

:25:34.:25:40.

Church together, but the other much more important is to forget about

:25:40.:25:46.

the Church and to speak out to people in the nation and trying to

:25:46.:25:50.

recommend the Christian faith in an intelligent, sensible way.

:25:50.:25:55.

think this other man who can do it? I do, at I to disagree with him on

:25:55.:25:59.

a number of things but I'm happy to put it aside. Why was he chose

:25:59.:26:07.

then? I think he was chosen because he impressed the committee by his

:26:07.:26:10.

commitment to wanting to reinvigorate the church and reach

:26:10.:26:15.

out. Does it work that this committee puts just a couple of

:26:15.:26:19.

names up? The Prime Minister makes the final choice. What has got to

:26:19.:26:24.

be clear, a boring issue, when Gordon Brown was prime minister,

:26:24.:26:29.

without consulting anyone, he decided he didn't want number 10 to

:26:29.:26:33.

have any further involvement in the appointment of Archbishop of

:26:33.:26:41.

Canterbury's. Because there was a Scotsman. Absolutely. He got rid of

:26:41.:26:45.

this. This will be the first time an archbishop has been chosen by

:26:45.:26:55.

the Church, which is a good thing. The process is, done by the

:26:55.:27:00.

establishment in smoke-filled rooms. In terms of democracy, it's more

:27:00.:27:07.

like China than the USA. But, nonetheless, actually, it's the one

:27:07.:27:12.

key process but it has produced the right manner. What do you think

:27:12.:27:18.

about his career as an oil executive? He hasn't be

:27:18.:27:21.

institutionalised by the Church and that's a good thing. He has got a

:27:21.:27:27.

hinterland. He spoke to me about the occupying and thought they were

:27:27.:27:29.

substantially right about the criticisms of what is happening of

:27:29.:27:35.

modern capitalism. He is excoriating on problems of wealth

:27:35.:27:39.

and poverty and the huge gap between the rich and poor. I think

:27:39.:27:44.

the fact he can also speak the language of finance and is not

:27:44.:27:48.

embarrassed about that, is very important. He's done very well on

:27:48.:27:53.

the Banking Commission. Excoriating on the gap between rich and poor.

:27:53.:28:01.

That must cheer you up. Yes, the Church has to speak as it sees.

:28:01.:28:06.

It's important. Actually, what it's really doing, if one has an

:28:06.:28:09.

Archbishop of Canterbury who speaks his mind, the government can

:28:09.:28:16.

respond to that and I'm sure it will collate. How long before it

:28:16.:28:26.
:28:26.:28:29.

falls out with the prime minister? But is no indication of friction. A

:28:29.:28:33.

good proportion of the Conservative Party is falling out with a prime

:28:33.:28:37.

minister at the moment. He has to speak truth to power and sometimes

:28:37.:28:43.

it will not be palatable. The job of the Church through the century

:28:43.:28:47.

is to be part of power. It's part of the established Church of

:28:47.:28:53.

England. A you're absolutely right. How can it speak truth to itself?

:28:54.:29:03.
:29:04.:29:04.

That's what it's supposed to do. You can remember rows. What about

:29:04.:29:10.

the non-conformist churches, the Methodists? If Britain go up to

:29:10.:29:13.

date more than the 19th century, I was usually inspired, came into the

:29:13.:29:17.

church because the people like the Bishop of Durham on the miners'

:29:17.:29:24.

strike, face in the City, which didn't annoy Mrs Thatcher, and

:29:24.:29:29.

Rowan Williams has done that over the war, the finance, in ways that

:29:29.:29:34.

haven't endeared him. They were all left wing. You have somebody now

:29:34.:29:42.

centre right. No, I don't think so. You think it's part of the right?

:29:42.:29:46.

The you can't pigeonhole him. because of the school he went to,

:29:46.:29:50.

whatever. The I'm not saying it's because of the school you went to

:29:50.:29:54.

put some of the things he said. is anti-gay marriage but there's

:29:54.:30:01.

nobody who could get his job at the moment who is pro-gay marriage. The

:30:01.:30:09.

Church would implode. Really? It's still that toxic. Yes, I'm in

:30:09.:30:13.

favour of it. I wish we had an archbishop who argued for it but we

:30:13.:30:19.

will not have that. If you bracket that one out, because it's an

:30:19.:30:24.

impossibility, Justin Welby is not a right-wing person in the way you

:30:24.:30:31.

have described. Those terms don't break down. Let me bring in our

:30:31.:30:39.

other guests for that do we do this too much prominence? Nobody chose

:30:39.:30:49.
:30:49.:30:50.

the Archbishop of Canterbury I know. It is on our front page today.

:30:50.:30:55.

is because he was a banker, they look after their own! We take a

:30:55.:30:59.

certain interest in his views, and he has an interesting position, a

:30:59.:31:03.

member of the House of Lords, sitting on a committee advising the

:31:03.:31:08.

government of legislating on the banking industry, the most senior

:31:08.:31:12.

cleric in a land as well. I think he will be an interesting figure in

:31:12.:31:15.

the public debate. Rowan Williams did not get as involved in the

:31:15.:31:19.

financial crisis and the aftermath as he could have done, and I think

:31:19.:31:24.

this archbishop is going to be a strong voice in the story of

:31:24.:31:29.

responsible capitalism. He is very much on the Ed Miliband agenda.

:31:29.:31:33.

financial, banking issues. Responsibility in the boardroom,

:31:33.:31:36.

but he made a good speech a month ago about the socially useless

:31:36.:31:42.

activity of bankers in the run-up to the crash. This is a big story

:31:42.:31:46.

for the Huffington Post? usually, we have covered it, but I

:31:46.:31:49.

agree that there is a bit of a media storm around it, a political

:31:49.:31:53.

storm because Downing Street announced it, and actually I found

:31:53.:31:57.

it ridiculous that Downing Street in the 21st century, they are the

:31:57.:32:04.

ones deciding who it is. You have to decide where the church gets...

:32:04.:32:07.

The population at large will not be talking about this in the way that

:32:07.:32:13.

we are, but one final point, we are talking about how he is pro women

:32:13.:32:18.

bishops, I was talking about a female Archbishop of Canterbury in

:32:18.:32:21.

future, that is what we should be talking about. Hopefully the week

:32:21.:32:25.

after next we would get the women's bishop measure through the General

:32:25.:32:28.

Synod, and if that happens, in due course there will be no reason why

:32:29.:32:32.

one should not have a woman archbishop. You would be in favour

:32:32.:32:36.

of that? If you have women bishops, the logic is you will have a woman

:32:36.:32:41.

archbishop. I think it is a bigger story than we are making out, not a

:32:41.:32:45.

lesser story. There are 16,000 parishes in this country, other

:32:45.:32:48.

things are important in the Westminster village, but in the

:32:48.:32:53.

country this is rather important, the Church of England. It is still

:32:53.:32:55.

something that stitches together communities the length and breadth

:32:55.:32:59.

of this country in places that other organisations do not function,

:32:59.:33:04.

so it is very important. Is it not true that more people go to the

:33:04.:33:08.

mosque on Friday that the Church of England on Sunday? I don't know the

:33:08.:33:13.

answer to that question. I think he will find the answer is yes, so

:33:13.:33:19.

where is the position for the Mahler in the British constitution?

:33:19.:33:24.

They clearly represent more church or mosque-go in people. The Church

:33:24.:33:29.

of England has been part of the fabric of this country for hundreds

:33:29.:33:34.

of years. I think it is a radical thing. The thing is, it does not

:33:35.:33:38.

work on left and right, it just does not work on the traditional

:33:38.:33:42.

patterns that you assume. Earlier this year, the Muslim, Jewish and

:33:42.:33:47.

other faith communities met with the Queen at Lambeth, part of the

:33:47.:33:50.

Jubilee celebrations, and they all acknowledge that one of the reasons

:33:50.:33:53.

they felt comfortable about freedom of religion in this country was

:33:53.:33:57.

because of the role of the established church, and that was, I

:33:57.:34:03.

thought, quite clever. Just before we go, how difficult is it to the

:34:03.:34:08.

parliament's Second Church Estates Commissioner? Look, let me tell you,

:34:08.:34:14.

Andrew, the most challenging thing for me in recent weeks is to find

:34:14.:34:17.

that I made as a Conservative backbencher a speech in support of

:34:18.:34:23.

the government, and that became so unusual that it made the 7:10am on

:34:23.:34:30.

the Today programme. Now you on the 12:30pm slot on the Daily Politics!

:34:30.:34:33.

The important thing for the Conservative Party is working out

:34:33.:34:37.

how to win the next election, being Second Church Estates Commissioner

:34:37.:34:42.

is a doddle in comparison. Just as well, because I see it is unpaid!

:34:42.:34:52.
:34:52.:35:01.

You get a bloody good memorial I knew him when he was a student! I

:35:01.:35:07.

will be there! He will not have a say! Thank you all.

:35:07.:35:11.

In six days' time the good people of Corby will be asked to brave the

:35:11.:35:17.

winter weather and a vote for a new MP because... Excuse to me, please

:35:17.:35:24.

wait, these Church Commissioners, honestly! The by-election is

:35:24.:35:29.

happening because Louise Mensch, remember, she won and 2010, she

:35:29.:35:33.

decided to stand down in order to spend more time with her family in

:35:33.:35:36.

the United States, that is what she said. There is a slim Conservative

:35:37.:35:41.

majority of under 2000, not a lot for a by-election, and Labour have

:35:41.:35:44.

high hopes of overturning that, they are clear favourites to win

:35:44.:35:48.

and win well. If they do, it will be their first by-election gain

:35:48.:35:52.

from the Tories for more than 15 years, so a lot at stake, as David

:35:52.:36:02.
:36:02.:36:04.

Corby, a constituency of two halves, a gritty post-industrial town

:36:04.:36:07.

meeting cosy countryside village, which is why, if you want to know

:36:07.:36:11.

which way the political wind is blowing, you come to this corner of

:36:12.:36:17.

East Northamptonshire. Generally speaking, running Corby is a good

:36:18.:36:22.

idea if you want to be the government. It was Labour in 1997

:36:22.:36:25.

at Taurean 2010, so the by-election is being seen as a political

:36:25.:36:30.

weather vane, which is just like -- just what Michael Gove could do

:36:30.:36:34.

without wit right now. Louise Mensch is sitting down to spend

:36:34.:36:39.

more time without -- Louise Mensch is stepping down to spend more time

:36:39.:36:45.

with her husband in America, not a popular decision universally. The

:36:45.:36:48.

Conservative candidate and her friends in high places still

:36:48.:36:54.

believe they can hold on. I will see you in a week's time when you

:36:54.:36:59.

are elected! We need to be collecting the next MP, not

:36:59.:37:04.

worrying about the last one. People want aspiration and hope, new jobs,

:37:04.:37:08.

good education, and that is what I am hearing on the doorsteps, and

:37:08.:37:12.

they know I would use my business background to encourage investment,

:37:12.:37:16.

encourage investment like the link road that we have agreed to invest

:37:16.:37:20.

in, encourage investment like the new jobs down at skew Bridge, and

:37:20.:37:24.

that is why I am convinced that the pollsters are wrong. Maybe, but

:37:24.:37:28.

others think the Louise Mensch factor has not really help. There

:37:28.:37:32.

is a definite and happiness that she has turned down. The Tories

:37:32.:37:35.

might not say it to you, but privately they are quite annoyed by

:37:35.:37:39.

that. I think the Labour Party will make capital on the back of it, and

:37:39.:37:43.

I think that they see it as a great opportunity to take back a seat

:37:43.:37:47.

that they think is traditionally there's any way. They do, but the

:37:47.:37:51.

Labour candidate is not taking anything for granted. You could see

:37:51.:37:54.

he is road-testing Ed Miliband's One nation mantra on the leafy

:37:54.:37:58.

lanes of Northamptonshire. What would you have to do to lose this

:37:58.:38:01.

election? It is really important that anybody talking about his

:38:01.:38:05.

election comes to see how diverse this constituency is, that we are

:38:05.:38:09.

trying to make sure that it will work for the whole of Corby and

:38:09.:38:15.

East Northamptonshire, chocolate- box villages, Corby town itself, we

:38:15.:38:20.

are fighting for every vote, and we up asking people to show their

:38:20.:38:24.

trust in One nation Labour. Spare a thought for the Lib Dems. The

:38:24.:38:29.

pundits think they can be knocked into 4th place by UKIP, but the

:38:29.:38:33.

candidate says that actually it is all still up for grabs. I think

:38:33.:38:35.

they are wrong, because on the doorstep people are saying they

:38:35.:38:39.

have not made up their minds, and they are conservative and Labour

:38:39.:38:43.

voters that are saying to us, I really do not know who to vote for,

:38:43.:38:46.

and we have really enjoyed that because it gives us the opportunity

:38:46.:38:50.

to talk with them, to find out what the issues are and hopefully to

:38:50.:38:56.

convert them to our cause. As for UKIP, Margot Parker is working hard

:38:56.:39:00.

to convince the voters they are more than a single-issue party.

:39:00.:39:03.

are knocking on doors, Labour people are saying, we are

:39:03.:39:08.

definitely going for UKIP. Conservatives, I have just spoken

:39:08.:39:12.

to two people, they will definitely vote for us. We are stepping up to

:39:12.:39:15.

the plate and listening to what they Hussain, and they are agreeing

:39:15.:39:19.

with us, so we have a good manifesto based on local issues. --

:39:19.:39:24.

what they are saying. How Corby votes will not tell us definitively

:39:24.:39:27.

he will win the next general election, but it might give us a

:39:27.:39:30.

clue, and that is why for all the parties these lanes and walkways

:39:30.:39:35.

really matter. You can find the full list of

:39:35.:39:41.

candidates standing in Corby on the BBC News website. George, everybody

:39:41.:39:44.

in your part of the words is assuming that Labour will win this,

:39:44.:39:49.

correct? That is correct, and by quite a big margin. Does that have

:39:49.:39:54.

significance? We have seen by- elections coming and going.

:39:54.:39:58.

circumstances of this one are quite strange, as David was just saying.

:39:58.:40:03.

That is one reason why people hate a by-election for which they see no

:40:03.:40:08.

need. I spoke to MPs will have been campaigning there, and there is a

:40:08.:40:13.

real animosity towards Louise Mensch, who is standing down. So

:40:13.:40:16.

strange circumstances, but if Labour did not win, it would be

:40:16.:40:21.

extraordinary. It is a weather vane seat, the Midlands, a key

:40:21.:40:25.

battleground, it is important for Ed Miliband, a stepping stone, but

:40:25.:40:28.

no more than that. It is always good to win if you are the

:40:28.:40:33.

opposition. I was looking at polling yesterday, how far ahead

:40:33.:40:37.

are the Tories, but when they were asking whether that would have an

:40:37.:40:41.

impact on how they would vote in a general election, yes, people are

:40:41.:40:45.

saying they would vote Labour, but not for Miliband if they were

:40:45.:40:49.

picking a prime minister. I think there is still some concern there.

:40:49.:40:54.

Next Thursday, is it? It is, the same night as the elections for

:40:54.:40:58.

police commissioners, will be more of a nationwide test. By which you

:40:58.:41:08.
:41:08.:41:13.

mean England. Of course, sorry The backlog of unresolved cases at

:41:13.:41:16.

the Border Agency means some immigrants may enjoy an amnesty as

:41:16.:41:19.

their cases are written-off. The Immigration Minister was not

:41:19.:41:23.

available to come onto the Daily Politics, but he has been

:41:23.:41:28.

responding elsewhere on the BBC this morning. We are not going to

:41:28.:41:32.

do an amnesty. Where we see no evidence that people are in the

:41:32.:41:35.

country from inherited cases, we will put their files on one side,

:41:35.:41:38.

but if those people come to light again, we will take action against

:41:38.:41:43.

them. Where we have evidence they are in the country, we will first

:41:43.:41:46.

of all contact them and try to persuade them to leave voluntarily.

:41:46.:41:50.

If that fails, we will take steps to enforce their removal from the

:41:50.:41:54.

country, that is what the public expects, and that is what we are

:41:54.:41:58.

going to do, and we expect to have gone through those cases and know

:41:58.:42:02.

which of the two categories people are in by the end of this year.

:42:02.:42:07.

That is the line from the minister, not the line of the man we were

:42:07.:42:11.

hoping to speak to, Keith Vaz of the Home Affairs Select Committee,

:42:11.:42:16.

but he is stuck in a traffic jam on the M1 apparently. There has been a

:42:16.:42:20.

bad accident on the M1, and that has held him up. To prepare to see

:42:20.:42:25.

him, I was looking at the figures, there are currently 20 have eyes

:42:25.:42:32.

and asylum cases going through. -- 25,500 asylum cases going through.

:42:32.:42:36.

But there are 74,000 made up of individuals with whom officials are

:42:36.:42:40.

no longer in touch, in other words they have lost them. Then there is

:42:40.:42:45.

the migration refusal pool, that is people who are recorded as having

:42:45.:42:49.

no permission to be in the UK but they do not know where they are, in

:42:49.:42:52.

other words they have lost them! The whole thing is a complete

:42:52.:42:57.

Horlicks. Yes, it is, and you need an effective system which gives bad

:42:57.:43:01.

guys out, controls the numbers effectively and everyone knows

:43:01.:43:05.

where they are. And keeping the doors open for people who bring

:43:05.:43:09.

wealth and jobs and prosperity to this country. It sounds so simple,

:43:09.:43:13.

doesn't it? We know the system is not working and the Border Agency

:43:13.:43:16.

is a complete mess, we saw that at Heathrow before the summer, and

:43:16.:43:20.

this is further evidence. Every government tries to come to grips

:43:20.:43:27.

with this. The number is something like the population of Iceland.

:43:27.:43:32.

think that came to the committee, more than 300,000 cases need to be

:43:32.:43:36.

dealt with, needed to be dealt with at the end of June, and that is

:43:36.:43:41.

equivalent to the population of Iceland. The Sun newspaper

:43:41.:43:46.

helpfully points out that meant the country and not the supermarket!

:43:46.:43:52.

am glad that is cleared up for us! When you look at this, they lost

:43:52.:43:59.

74,000, they have lost 174,000, whatever the minister says, your

:43:59.:44:06.

antennae picked up. They are going to give an amnesty. Surely we now

:44:06.:44:09.

have to have a sensible debate about the amnesty. Boris Johnson

:44:09.:44:13.

was talking about is a few years ago, it is not necessary a right or

:44:13.:44:18.

left issue, no-one can work out to do, so why can't we have a sensible

:44:18.:44:21.

debate to work out if there are people contributing to this country,

:44:21.:44:27.

or that really needs to stay here, we cannot send them back to war-

:44:27.:44:33.

torn countries, then let's talk about it sensibly. If you do not in

:44:34.:44:38.

a blanket amnesty, which would be incredibly unpopular, if you start

:44:38.:44:41.

to say as has been happening in America we are going to give an

:44:41.:44:46.

amnesty to kids who have been born here and are now working or being

:44:46.:44:50.

educated, they are Americans, you could do that here, but if you have

:44:50.:44:56.

a controlled archive that you have lost, 74,000, and a refusal pool of

:44:56.:45:06.
:45:06.:45:11.

174,000, you cannot do that, you do This is a huge problem for the

:45:11.:45:14.

government. They will have to give amnesties to the people who are

:45:14.:45:18.

here and that is a terrible hole in their policy. Republicans can't

:45:18.:45:23.

work out what their policy is in the USA, and that had an impact in

:45:23.:45:27.

the presidential elections to the Tories need to work it out. We're

:45:27.:45:36.

talking here, not just about asylum-seekers, but, let's move on.

:45:36.:45:39.

Now, a report out today suggests the number of complaints made about

:45:39.:45:42.

the Health Service are increasing. Not good news for the Health

:45:42.:45:45.

Secretary Jeremy Hunt. He is new in the job. So what's been the

:45:45.:45:51.

problem? The NHS received over 150,000 complaints between 2011 and

:45:51.:45:56.

2012. Of those just over 16,000 patients or family members were

:45:56.:45:59.

dissatisfied with how the NHS tried to resolve the issue and so were

:45:59.:46:02.

referred to the Health Service Ombudsman. That's up 8% on last

:46:02.:46:05.

year. Complaints include a man whose skin cancer was misdiagnosed

:46:05.:46:09.

by his GP practice on six different occasions but who was unable to get

:46:09.:46:16.

the practice to acknowledge their failings when he complained.

:46:16.:46:19.

Another who was accused by a surgeon of being a baby when he

:46:19.:46:24.

expressed his anxiety about having a general anaesthetic. And a

:46:24.:46:27.

bereaved daughter who was told death is rarely an ideal situation

:46:27.:46:30.

for anyone and that, truth be told, your mother probably said her

:46:30.:46:40.
:46:40.:46:42.

goodbyes long before the final moments. Julie Mellor, the new

:46:42.:46:45.

ombudsman has said there needed to be a clear shift in attitude and

:46:45.:46:53.

practice among some GPs. We had seen an increase in the number of

:46:53.:46:57.

cases where the NHS has not acknowledged a mistake was made, an

:46:57.:47:01.

increase in the number of cases where they have not explained what

:47:01.:47:07.

actually happened, and an increase in in the sincere, inadequate

:47:07.:47:12.

apologies, and that matters because it damages confidence in the NHS,

:47:12.:47:16.

which provides fantastic ear to thousands of people every day -- in

:47:16.:47:25.

sincere. -- fantastic care. Well, to discuss this I'm joined by the

:47:25.:47:27.

Health Services Minister, Dr Daniel Poulter. And by Katherine Murphy of

:47:27.:47:34.

the Patients Association. Is the NHS in general good at dealing with

:47:34.:47:41.

people and complaints? I think the staff is a very much a defensive

:47:41.:47:46.

culture when it comes to handling complaints. Patients call the

:47:46.:47:49.

Patients Association helpline and tell us they feel it disillusioned

:47:50.:47:54.

with the system, it's very complicated, it's a very long, very

:47:54.:48:02.

bureaucratic, and the NHS rely very much on a written outcome of the

:48:03.:48:07.

complaint which obviously is a barrier to a lot of people. How can

:48:07.:48:12.

you improve that? The quality of care for the majority people is

:48:12.:48:16.

very good and many people, most patients are satisfied. We do get

:48:16.:48:21.

things wrong in the NHS sometimes. I know things go wrong and we don't

:48:21.:48:25.

always get things right. The first thing to do is for professionals in

:48:25.:48:29.

the NHS and managers to always acknowledge when things have gone

:48:29.:48:37.

wrong and to make a sincere apology. Does that happen? Sometimes they're

:48:37.:48:43.

quite slow to acknowledge something has gone badly wrong. I think, as

:48:43.:48:48.

it currently exists, the complaints process is very lengthy for people.

:48:48.:48:52.

It's too long, bureaucratic. And very often, when patients raised

:48:52.:48:59.

concerns, they don't know where in the process their concern is. What

:48:59.:49:03.

we try and encourage staff to do is, when a patient and a relative of

:49:04.:49:07.

race is a concern, while it they are still in hospital, please

:49:07.:49:10.

address the concern because the vast majority of patients want to

:49:10.:49:17.

see an improvement, they want staff to see it as a learning opportunity,

:49:17.:49:20.

an opportunity to have a conversation, not an end to a

:49:20.:49:25.

conversation. Why are complaints rising? The government recognises

:49:25.:49:35.

that we need to, we need to be quicker. We have made a commitment

:49:35.:49:37.

to make sure all complaints are acknowledged within three days

:49:37.:49:41.

because it's completely unacceptable when people have to

:49:41.:49:42.

wait months to have an acknowledgement that something has

:49:42.:49:47.

gone wrong. We're going to consult a how we can make that a reality,

:49:47.:49:54.

to improve those few cases where things go badly wrong. Overall, in

:49:54.:50:00.

terms of the report to address your question there, complaints to the

:50:00.:50:08.

ombudsman directly, they are a relatively a new body, 2009, and it

:50:08.:50:12.

only recently there has been or strict duty put in place for any

:50:12.:50:18.

hospital, GP's surgery, engaged in a complaints procedure, now has a

:50:18.:50:23.

duty not to flag up there is an ombudsman there, if at the end of

:50:23.:50:26.

the complaints procedure, the patient is not happy with how it is

:50:26.:50:32.

handled. Already, the NHS are making sure where there are

:50:32.:50:39.

complaints, they are dealt with properly. Overall complaints going

:50:39.:50:45.

up by 8% but if you break it down, 50% rise in in incidents with the

:50:45.:50:51.

NHS did not acknowledge mistakes in care and a 42% rise in complaints

:50:51.:51:00.

with inadequate remedy such as apologies being offered. Why?

:51:00.:51:05.

completely unacceptable. Sometimes what happens, we do live in an

:51:05.:51:09.

increasingly litigious age and is a lot more propensity for people to

:51:09.:51:14.

sue. Some hospitals reaction to that is to say, if we acknowledge

:51:14.:51:19.

something went wrong, we could be sued, but that's not the case. We

:51:19.:51:22.

have to understand it's about looking after people properly and

:51:22.:51:27.

recognising things have gone wrong and being open and honest about it.

:51:27.:51:31.

Admitting something has gone wrong, acknowledging some body has been

:51:31.:51:34.

treated badly and had a bad experience, doesn't mean there's

:51:34.:51:40.

going to be a big financial bill associated with it. The British are

:51:40.:51:46.

very proud of the NHS, it provides health care to everybody.

:51:46.:51:52.

Regardless of means and so on. It's a state health service but it is a

:51:52.:51:58.

massive state bureaucracy, a massive monolithic state but, --

:51:58.:52:08.

but I am off -- and it does not respond well to customer complaints.

:52:08.:52:12.

The vast majority of patients and relatives are reluctant to complain.

:52:12.:52:17.

I think we should have much more information to be given to every

:52:17.:52:21.

patient going into hospital on how they make a complaint and where

:52:21.:52:26.

they get the relevant information from. Information also on how to

:52:26.:52:32.

support them up during the process. Have you complained to the NHS?

:52:32.:52:40.

but because it's held in such high regard, I wonder whether a somehow

:52:40.:52:44.

a culture has developed inside the NHS where is not enough self-

:52:44.:52:49.

criticism. Anybody can hide behind the fact, as an institution, its

:52:49.:52:55.

sober loved and trusted. I totally agree and, despite this, it's still

:52:55.:53:00.

an institution the general public have love for. It's good that that

:53:00.:53:06.

is still there. Are the cuts impacting? Is a bigger short cuts

:53:06.:53:09.

are being taken, there is not enough time to sit and talk to

:53:09.:53:19.

people and explain to them? We are seeing stories but NHS directors --

:53:19.:53:23.

NHS Direct is to be closed. Is up to be closed? I'm not aware of that

:53:23.:53:30.

at the moment. We are told a large number of the call centres are to

:53:30.:53:35.

close. It certainly been reviewed at the moment and it's an ongoing

:53:35.:53:37.

process but a not aware any decision has been made at the

:53:38.:53:45.

moment. The unions seem to think it is. Unions are very often jump on

:53:45.:53:55.
:53:55.:53:56.

the consultation as something... a time when cuts are happening,

:53:56.:54:00.

your Government's position is you have ring-fenced health spending,

:54:00.:54:06.

but when cash is short, is that not likely to lead to more complaints?

:54:06.:54:10.

There is no substitute for good care and the fact of the matter is,

:54:10.:54:16.

it's about the relationship between a doctors and nurses and health

:54:16.:54:19.

care professionals and their patients. That means acknowledging

:54:19.:54:25.

things have gone wrong and learning from it in the future. The NHS is

:54:25.:54:28.

getting �12.5 billion more from the government. It is good practice and

:54:29.:54:32.

good health care to make sure we learn from mistakes and improve

:54:32.:54:37.

care in the future. You're the only government minister we have one

:54:37.:54:42.

this morning. What is your reaction to Lord McAlpine's statement?

:54:42.:54:48.

was in the Guardian this morning? No, since then, make nuclear

:54:48.:54:57.

vehemently that he believes he has nothing to do with this abuse story.

:54:57.:55:04.

I think the main issue we discussed earlier on, Twitter, there are

:55:04.:55:09.

libellous things can be said about people with no truth whatsoever in

:55:09.:55:14.

a very spiteful way. When it comes down to it, we need to get away

:55:14.:55:18.

from all that and stick with the facts. There are investigations

:55:18.:55:25.

going on into allegations of abuse. Let them take place. And take it

:55:25.:55:31.

from there. It's very irresponsible for people to using the internet

:55:31.:55:35.

and a spiteful and ill-founded way. That's something we should learn

:55:35.:55:39.

from for the future as well. Thank you for that. We'll keep an eye on

:55:39.:55:44.

the complaint situation. Thank you for joining us. It's been a big

:55:44.:55:49.

week in politics with a big story dominating. Yes, the trip to the

:55:49.:55:55.

Jungle Beach is heavily in the week in 60 seconds. -- jungle features

:55:55.:56:02.

heavily. The President defeats Mitt Romney in a close-run campaign to

:56:02.:56:06.

retain the White House. Democrats rejoiced and Republicans were in

:56:06.:56:14.

despair and many others couldn't believe how much money it cost.

:56:14.:56:22.

Has gone to the jungle. Having evidently given up on the

:56:22.:56:32.
:56:32.:56:32.

government game, I'm an MP, let me in, she has had the whip withdrawn.

:56:32.:56:35.

The the that the Prime Minister sparred with Harriet Harman and we

:56:35.:56:39.

had a parliamentary miracle. the first time in my career, I

:56:39.:56:45.

wholeheartedly agree with her. Letters for treasure this moment. -

:56:45.:56:50.

- let as the treasure this moment. David Cameron met Angela Merkel and

:56:50.:56:56.

commentators wondered whether she wants them to sit closer while he

:56:56.:57:06.
:57:06.:57:06.

explained he might have to leave early.

:57:06.:57:11.

Coming up this week, we had the call the by-election. The elections

:57:11.:57:19.

for police commissioners in England and Wales as well. The American

:57:19.:57:25.

election, I had an argument in the studio last night with a historian

:57:25.:57:32.

who said this was a watershed election. I'm not so sure. It isn't

:57:33.:57:38.

a watershed election for the Democrats are but they are bought

:57:38.:57:44.

the Republicans who on the wrong end of the American tomography.

:57:44.:57:49.

They are in total disarray. Mitt Romney went too far to the right

:57:49.:57:53.

and then tried to backtrack but not enough to get elected. Now the tea-

:57:53.:57:58.

party are fighting. Goodness knows where we will go from here. It's

:57:58.:58:02.

interesting talking to the but Westminster. Labour said this

:58:02.:58:07.

election has not about the economy but a change in society. Both the

:58:07.:58:09.

Tories and Labour are trying to drawing conclusions from their

:58:09.:58:15.

position. Part of the problem is the Republicans have so little in

:58:15.:58:21.

common with European conservative movements. I hope you enjoyed being

:58:21.:58:25.

on the Daily Politics. And you will come back and see us on Friday.

:58:25.:58:28.

That's all for today. Thanks to our guests. The One O'Clock News is

:58:29.:58:32.

starting over on BBC One now. I'll be back on BBC One on Sunday with

:58:32.:58:39.

the Sunday Politics. My guests will be the Secretary of State for

:58:39.:58:44.

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