10/03/2014 Daily Politics


10/03/2014

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Good afternoon, welcome to the Daily Politics. Labour has given us their

:00:40.:00:44.

first firm manifesto spending pledge, an expensive one. The high

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command says it will spend ?5 billion to give unemployed young

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people a guaranteed job, and the promises good for the whole of the

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next parliament if they win the election. Do the numbers add up?

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They use hi-tech detector vans to check if you are paying your TV

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licence, so you can watch Daily Politics! Some MPs think it is

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nothing more than a poll tax on viewers, we will debate the issue.

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They are sometimes known as the ministers for paperclips, they get

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little power or glory, who would want to be a junior minister? And is

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Labour announced their first election manifesto commitment, we

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look back as whether they are really worth the paper they are written on.

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All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole programme today is

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Liberal Democrat MP and friend of the programme Jeremy Browne, and he

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joins us fresh, if that is the word, from the Lib Dems bring conference

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in York, where he spent the weekend talking about policy, cheering on

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the speeches and fielding questions about the inspiration for his beard.

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Welcome to the show. Sticking with the conference, the Lib Dems were

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keen to talk about their record in government, but they were also

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indulging in a new favourite pastime, having a go at UKIP. Let's

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have a look at the surprise guest who took to the stage yesterday.

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Hello, everybody! Nigel here. I am looking for my mate Nick to see if

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we can have a few pints and a few smokes before our little chat on the

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2nd of April. Have you seen him anywhere? No? Oh, all right, OK.

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Well, I thought, you know, I'd perhaps have a chance to convince

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him over this Europe stuff... That was in fact morally bird, the Lib

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Dem MP, pretending to be Nigel Farage. -- Lorely Burt. I am not

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sure that she was on the right sort of ground, I'd like Nigel Farage as

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well as an individual. Was that wise as a gimmick? I think the contrast

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between Nick Clegg and the Lib Dems' position and UKIP is wise,

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because that is the big choice facing the country, not just in the

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European elections but for our country for decades to come. As we

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have globalisation and Moore internationalised world, there are

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implications terms of immigration, how we get on with all parts of the

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world, Asia in particular. The big choice facing us is whether we try

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to embrace that, do we reject and try to make sure Britain plays an

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active role in the world, or do we try to withdraw from it and

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consolidate what we already have? In a way, I think the black and white

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choice facing the country is between the Nick Clegg vision and be Nigel

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Farage vision. Actually, it would be blurred by having Ed Miliband and

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David Cameron there, because they do not represent anything clear. You

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may disagree or agree with what they both say, but I think that, for the

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electorate, is the real choice. Do the Lib Dems do, deep well? I'm not

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sure any politicians do it well! -- comedy. You have to see them in the

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context of being in front of a partisan audience. I think people

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quite enjoy it, good on her for having the nerve to go. She drew the

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short straw, didn't she? I don't know, maybe she enjoyed it! All

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political parties, you can get a bit of fun from the activists by

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lampooning your political opponents, and no doubt at UKIP they

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will have a similar role for Nick Clegg. What about the policy of

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raising the income tax threshold? Is that your policy, or was it a joint

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policy with the Conservative Party? It is a Liberal Democrat policy that

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is being implemented jointly in government. We are pleased that we

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have played such a constructive role in government, that we have been

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able to implement important policies. But let's be clear, it was

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in the Liberal Democrat manifesto and not in the Conservative

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manifesto, so you cannot have a more straightforward case of ownership of

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a policy than that. No dispute that it is a Liberal Democrat policy, but

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of course we worked collaboratively with the Conservatives in

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government. I think they have to be convinced, because David Cameron

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said that it was an unaffordable policy, and he would have liked to

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be able to implement it but it would not be possible in government. I am

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not saying they were against tax cuts for people on low and middle

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incomes, but they wouldn't have done it on their own, and we know that

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the cause David Cameron told us in the leadership debates that the

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Conservatives would not do that if they were in government on their

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own. It turns out it is affordable, and next month the policy will be

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achieved in full. That is due to the pressure being put in government by

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the Liberal Democrats to get that policy implemented, but let's be

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grown up about the - there are two parties in government, we worked

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collaboratively, and a lot of the successes of this government are due

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to Liberal Democrat inspired policies, but we have put them in

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effect together. So it was not grown-up to say we had to drag the

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Conservative Party kicking and screaming into it? That is what Nick

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Clegg said. I was not in those negotiations, but clearly the

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Conservatives would not have done that without us, so they have to

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have their feet held to the fire a little bit by us to say the priority

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should not be on inheritance tax, we want the number-one priority to be

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helping people on lower and middle incomes by making them pay less

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tax, and that has become the main tax priority of government, but it

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was a Lib Dem policy. How would you have characterised James

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Brokenshire's speech on immigration in terms of blaming the middle

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classes for immigration? Well, it is not a speech I would have made. You

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were in the home office. I was, and I didn't make that speech! I do my

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own cleaning in the house, and I'm afraid I don't earn enough money to

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take on staff. I am not part of the metropolitan elite! How misguided,

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in your mind, was that speech, or was he right? I mean, I think it was

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a misguided speech, but the one area where he maybe was touching on a

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point which is worth debating is that the impact of immigration can

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be quite different on people in different parts of the economy. So

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on the whole, it is more beneficial to affluent people, and it is less

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beneficial to people with lower skills. But the overall message that

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James was conveying was a bad message, because I think the joys

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that we have as a country is not how do we lock out people and how do we

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cut ourselves off from globalisation - it is how we can raise the skills

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and opportunities that exist in this country to make sure that we can

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compete in an era of globalisation, and for me the Conservatives and

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UKIP are going down the wrong part if they think we can cut ourselves

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off. You can never have too much of the

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Lib Dems bring conference, and it is time for the daily quiz. -- spring

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conference. Yesterday Nick Clegg gave us a list of all the things he

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loves about Britain, but which one of these was not on his list? The

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shipping forecast, the steam engine, the Antiques Roadshow, chewing while

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abroad? At the end of the show, I'm sure Jeremy can give us the correct

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answer. -- queueing. Nigel Evans, the former Deputy Speaker of the

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House of Commons, goes on trial today accused of sexual offences

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against seven men. The MP for Ribble Valley in Lincolnshire paces a jury

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at Preston Crown Court for a trial scheduled to last around four weeks.

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We can find out more from Ed Thomas, who was outside the court, can you

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give us any more background? Well, Nigel Evans arrived here this

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morning surrounded by photographers and reporters, and in courtroom one

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at Preston County Court he faces nine charges in total, eight counts

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of sexual and indecent assault, and one count of rape. Now, all these

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charges are said to have happened between 2002 and last year and

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involves seven men. Nigel Evans, throughout the whole court process,

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has insisted that he is innocent, he pleads not guilty to all of the

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charges. Oh! Ed, can you hear? Babbs we have

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lost contact. What will actually happen today? Well, the first bit of

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court business today was to swear in a jury, and potential jurors were

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asked a number of questions, whether they were a constituent or not of

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Nigel Evans, whether they knew him personally. This jury has now been

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sworn in, and we also got a flavour of potential witnesses who could be

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called to court. At last count, I heard that nine MPs could come here

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to give evidence during this trial. This includes Conservative

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backbenchers Sarah Wollaston, the Commons Speaker, John Bercow, and

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the transport Secretary, Patrick McLoughlin. As you say, the case

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could last up to five weeks, and Nigel Evans denies all the charges

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against him. Labour leader Ed Miliband and Shadow

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Chancellor Ed Balls are announcing a new policy today. Not only that, but

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Labour says is their first manifesto spending pledge, and it is about the

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compulsory jobs guarantee. Under the scheme, 18 to 24-year-olds who have

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been out of work for one year will be offered a taxpayer subsidised job

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lasting six months. Those who refuse risk losing benefits. The scheme

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will also apply to adults aged 25 or over who have claimed jobseeker's

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allowance for two years or more. Ed Balls has previously suggested that

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the scheme would only be funded for the first year of a Labour

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government, but he now plans to extend it for the whole of the next

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parliament if they win in 2015. According to Labour, the first year

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of the scheme will be paid for by a repeat bankers' bonuses tax, raising

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?1.9 billion. After that, the project will be funded by a

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reduction in the rate of pension tax relief of 45% down to 20% on for

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people on more than ?125,000 per year. The Labour Party say this will

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raise ?900 million. Critics of the plans amount to a raid on pensions

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and that they leave a hole in funding for other key pledges, and

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that is because Labour says it is the only project which will be

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funded by a banker's bonus tax, which leaves open the question, how

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will they pay for other pledges, such as their promise to build

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200,000 homes per year by 2020? We can listen to Ed Miliband talking

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this morning. This scheme is fully costed and we will be paying for it

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by taxing bankers' bonuses and by restricting pensions tax relief for

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the highest earners on over ?150,000 per year, a right and fair decision

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to take to get our young people working again. We have got 56,000

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young people who have been out of work for more than 12 months, double

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what it was when this government came to power. They are not taking

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action, we will. Ed Miliband speaking earlier, and

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Stephen Timms joins us now. Under the jobs guarantee, Stephen Timms,

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long-term unemployed will be offered a job for six months, what happens

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to them after that? We would hope that most of them would stay on in

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those jobs. In Wales, there is a programme that is working along

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these lines, and they are finding that young people taken on with this

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subsidy for six months, 80% of them taken on by private companies are

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staying on in those jobs after the end of the six months, and you can

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understand why. Once a small company has invested six months of effort in

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somebody, as long as they are doing OK, the employer will want to keep

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them on. The other side of the coin is that it is cheap labour for

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companies, bearing in mind the Government will be subsidising it,

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six months, then back on the dole and they get a new one. The

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Government has to watch what is going on, and the jobs fund was in

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place before the last election, and you can make sure that kind of abuse

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does not take place. How many companies have signed up to be

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scheme? We have not yet announced which companies will be involved. I

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have been speaking to a major bank about it this morning, and there is

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a lot of enthusiasm amongst employers for helping particularly

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unemployed young people into work, and I think we will find no shortage

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of companies wanting to support the programme. But people will want to

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know whether you will be able to drill that down and keep to that

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guarantee, because we are talking about a lot of people being taken on

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potentially. You mentioned a bank, are you hoping it will be private

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firms and small businesses? In Wales, most of the placements are

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with private sector firms, mostly small ones, because those are the

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companies generating jobs at the moment, so we would certainly

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expect, on the Welsh example, about three quarters in the private

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sector. There will be jobs in charities, in the public sector as

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well, but a minority. We have not yet announced any companies that

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will definitely be delivering this. When will you make that

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announcement? We will be progressively making those

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announcements as people sign up between now and the election. As I

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say, there is no shortage of enthusiasm. Enthusiasm is different

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from people saying, we are going to take on five of the young people on

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the dole that you are talking about, 15 or 20. You must admit that.

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Indeed, but thankfully the economy is now growing. There are

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opportunities for people, when there wasn't. Employers are wanting to

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bring in people, particularly those that were out of work for a long

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time, to make sure that they become economic reproductive com in

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everybody's interests. Sounds like a good idea? I do think he a problem,

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so I commend him and others for trying to deal with it. But this is

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a big pledge? My feeling is that unemployment is going down, youth

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and climate is going down. It's still very high? It is, that is why

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it's important to talk about. Our levels of unemployment are much

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lower than in southern Europe. How do you make sure you have the right

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conditions for people to be employed? It is not just by

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politicians announcing everybody will have a job. What it is is

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making sure that you have flexible labour markets, skills among young

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people that make them attractive to employers. The rest is quick fixes

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paid for by the taxpayer. We've tried that in countries across

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southern Europe. It's not inflexible labour markets and goodwill by

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left-wing governments that make people employed, it is having a

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vibrant implement markets like we have in this country. I think Jeremy

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would recognise that there is a particular problem with people that

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have been out of work for a long time. Young people out of work for

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more than a year, older people out of work for more than two years.

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More young people out of work for over a year than at any time since

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1993. It does need special effort to get those back in work and that is

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what we're going to do. Let's look at how you would pay for it. It

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would be through a banker bonus tax. You know as well as I do, we had a

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Labour shadow minister sitting here saying they pledged that banker

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bonus tax to various schemes. Have there was all gone? More money for

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the regional growth fund, turning empty shops into community centres,

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building 25,000 new homes, that is all gone? If they are in the

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manifesto, we will explain at the time had that is going to be funded.

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Only the job guarantee will be funded from the bonus tax and the

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restriction on pension tax relief for people earning over ?150,000 per

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year. They will be funded differently, are you going to keep

:17:28.:17:31.

all of these pledges? This is one announcement about one commitment in

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the manifesto. We will speak about the others as the time draws near.

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There is not a commitment to put those into the manifesto at the

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moment. There is? The housing policy could go? They could. All of them,

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in that case! Were those policies worth the paper they were written

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on? What would have been saying for some time is that these are things

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the Government could be doing now and we have explained how they could

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be doing it now. What we have set out today is what is going to be in

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our manifesto next year. We have this one commitment we are anxious

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that people should hear about today. That is the banker bonus tax, ?1.9

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billion. Alistair Darling, former Labour Chancellor who introduced the

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tax, said it would only be effective as a one-off. Do you agree that

:18:15.:18:19.

actually it is a very ambitious figure to look at again? No, I think

:18:20.:18:27.

it's very realistic. Based on? Based on the fact that banker bonuses is

:18:28.:18:31.

going up again. We have seen quite large rises announced by major

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banks. When would it apply? We would introduce it straight after the

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election. I imagine it would apply in the financial year starting in

:18:41.:18:43.

April 2015, depending on whether we get the mechanics ready in time. Do

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you think that figure adds up? ?1.9 billion seems like a very large

:18:49.:18:53.

figure. Labour's phones only add up if the banks pay they get bonuses to

:18:54.:18:59.

employees. Labour presumably become a party cheerleading for banker

:19:00.:19:02.

bonuses, as the only way to make their manifesto had. It is a

:19:03.:19:08.

windfall tax. They are not going to do that, are they? The bonuses are

:19:09.:19:12.

going up, it's appropriate that we say to those people doing very, very

:19:13.:19:16.

well, you should be making a contribution to young people into

:19:17.:19:20.

work. I recognise this, when the Lib Dems were in opposition for decades,

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we used to come up with policies that were not properly costed

:19:25.:19:27.

because we didn't think we would ever have doing the mend them. I

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recognise the phenomenon that is Labour now. -- didn't have to

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implement them. Every single time this Government has come up with a

:19:36.:19:39.

proposal to get the appalling deficit down, Labour has opposed it.

:19:40.:19:44.

Labour is sitting on tens of liens of pounds of costed commitments.

:19:45.:19:47.

They are all going to pay for it, supposedly, by these bankers they

:19:48.:19:52.

have not identified. They will keep their fingers crossed that those

:19:53.:19:56.

bonuses will be so high it will pay for a handful of their commitments.

:19:57.:20:02.

The bonus tax will solely play -- pay for the job guarantee. There is

:20:03.:20:08.

an irony, that you needed to be high to cover this ambitious pledge? They

:20:09.:20:14.

are still going up. You want them to go up, because otherwise it won't

:20:15.:20:18.

add up. The amount yielded by the bonus tax will easily cover the cost

:20:19.:20:22.

for the first year. The Treasury says the policy doesn't add up. You

:20:23.:20:26.

claim the jobs guarantee will cost ?1.9 billion in the first year,

:20:27.:20:31.

Treasury officials say it will cost ?2.6 billion per year. Have you

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underestimated the cost of the scheme? The Treasury say they have

:20:35.:20:38.

figures that it will be almost ?1 billion more. How will you convince

:20:39.:20:43.

the electorate? The only basis on which that could be the case is if

:20:44.:20:46.

youth unemployment is about to go through the roof. On the basis of

:20:47.:20:50.

the current levels, which I hope will come down as the economy grows

:20:51.:20:55.

in the next year, the cost of delivering the guarantee will

:20:56.:20:59.

reduce. You're going to be taking money from older people to pay for

:21:00.:21:02.

the younger generation? He will reduce the rate of pension tax

:21:03.:21:06.

relief? Or people earning over ?150,000 per year.

:21:07.:21:11.

If you are watching this, it means you have hopefully paid your licence

:21:12.:21:14.

fee. If you haven't, watch out, we will send Andrew round first thing

:21:15.:21:20.

to get it, and he can be grumpy in the morning. If you watch broadcasts

:21:21.:21:24.

on your TV or other electronic device, at the moment you can be

:21:25.:21:28.

convicted and fined. There are moves afoot to make it a civil offence,

:21:29.:21:32.

not a criminal offence. Would this lead to more people failing to pay?

:21:33.:21:37.

Let's look at the kind of high-tech TV detector vans that were in action

:21:38.:21:40.

in the 19 six days. Licence dodgers watch out! The

:21:41.:21:45.

Minister of Telecom indications is on the warpath. Nearly 1.25 million

:21:46.:21:50.

householders watch the telly and don't buy a licence. But they'd

:21:51.:21:55.

better, and quick. Vans would highly efficient equipment are out in

:21:56.:21:59.

force, in an intensive campaign to cut back drastically the number of

:22:00.:22:07.

welshers. He says it's a fair deal for everyone, honest folk should not

:22:08.:22:09.

subsidise the others. If you switch on, be prepared to pay up. We are

:22:10.:22:16.

joined now by the Conservative MP Andrew Bridgen, who has described

:22:17.:22:19.

the licence fee as a poll tax and who wants to decriminalise

:22:20.:22:24.

nonpayment. We're also joined by the shadow culture minister Helen

:22:25.:22:28.

Goodman. Welcome both of you. Andrew Bridgen, you are proposing that the

:22:29.:22:31.

nonpayment should be decriminalised, have you thought

:22:32.:22:33.

through the invitations long-term for the BBC? Do you care? I do care,

:22:34.:22:40.

there are many things I like about the BBC, some things I think they

:22:41.:22:44.

get wrong. The relationship with the consumer, criminalising them if they

:22:45.:22:48.

don't pay it, is placing a barrier to the BBC. I think it is making the

:22:49.:22:53.

BBC distant and disconnected. In fact, there is some derision, in

:22:54.:22:57.

some areas. And it is driven by this, this disconnect. What about

:22:58.:23:01.

the figures of people that are prosecuted, can you give us an idea

:23:02.:23:07.

of what we're talking about? To huge problem, a huge burden on the

:23:08.:23:11.

Magistrates' Court. One in five cases in 2012 were due to nonpayment

:23:12.:23:16.

of TV licences. The magistrates themselves have been calling for

:23:17.:23:19.

decriminalisation for over 20 years. I had a number of e-mails from

:23:20.:23:22.

magistrates supporting my campaign. If the BBC were to find out of a

:23:23.:23:27.

banana republic country, where they announced they were going to have a

:23:28.:23:30.

poll tax to allow people to have access to television, regardless of

:23:31.:23:35.

income, and threaten people with criminal prosecution and

:23:36.:23:37.

imprisonment, and that the majority of people in prison would be women

:23:38.:23:40.

with children, there would be outcry, but that is what we have

:23:41.:23:44.

got. It's a poll tax, it should be got rid of, no longer criminalising

:23:45.:23:49.

people? I think there is a question mark about whether it is right that

:23:50.:23:53.

people should end up going to prison. I also think it has to be

:23:54.:23:57.

set amongst the increase of the number of people that would probably

:23:58.:24:02.

not pay. For every 1% of people that don't pay, that costs 35mm is. That

:24:03.:24:09.

would mean a reduction in services, fewer jobs. -- 35mm pounds. I think

:24:10.:24:13.

this is one we should put into the discussions for the new royal

:24:14.:24:18.

charter. Let's look at the figures. 1% increase innovation, this is the

:24:19.:24:24.

BBC spokesman, it would lead to a loss of around ?35 million, the

:24:25.:24:26.

equivalent of about three local radio stations. I think it's very

:24:27.:24:32.

emotive to say that instead of cutting back on extra redundancy

:24:33.:24:36.

payment when somebody is made redundant, all wasting ?100 million

:24:37.:24:40.

on the digital initiative, it is going to be local radio stations.

:24:41.:24:44.

That is very emotive. The BBC are playing a blinder on PR, but they do

:24:45.:24:54.

work in media! Do you concede that there will be more income lost? It

:24:55.:24:59.

is up to the BBC to set systems in place. We don't criminalise people

:25:00.:25:02.

for nonpayment of parking fines, it is a civil offence and that have to

:25:03.:25:08.

be connected. The timing, as Helen Goodman suggests, would it not be

:25:09.:25:12.

better to tie it in on the overall funding arrangements and charter

:25:13.:25:16.

renewal in 26 team? What we can see from the cross-section, the

:25:17.:25:19.

political spectrum, is that there is a feeling in the House of Commons

:25:20.:25:24.

that it is disproportionate to criminalise. If it is wrong, it is

:25:25.:25:28.

wrong. Saying we will decriminalise it in another two years or three

:25:29.:25:32.

years, it is wrong or right, if it is wrong, it is wrong now. Otherwise

:25:33.:25:38.

we are going to make criminals of another 45,000 people unnecessarily.

:25:39.:25:42.

Where do you stand on this? I think it is to Coney and to send people to

:25:43.:25:46.

prison, but I wonder if it is a substitute of a bigger debate, along

:25:47.:25:53.

the lines of the long-term funding of the BBC. There is a debate about

:25:54.:25:57.

whether in 20 years time the licence fee model is going to be compatible

:25:58.:26:01.

with viewing habits. But as that is the system we have at the moment, I

:26:02.:26:05.

think people should pay their TV licence. What is your view in terms

:26:06.:26:08.

of the sustainability of the licence fee and funding for the BBC? I

:26:09.:26:14.

certainly think we can have another round with the licence fee. 97% of

:26:15.:26:18.

people use the BBC. It's a very fairway, given that a lot of people

:26:19.:26:21.

use it, it is cheaper than subscriptions to some other channels

:26:22.:26:27.

. I think there is quite a lot of support amongst the public. It means

:26:28.:26:30.

that, actually, the system for collecting the money is simple than

:26:31.:26:35.

if you move over to subscription. Should we continue with the licence

:26:36.:26:40.

fee model for another session? I think that is probably necessary.

:26:41.:26:44.

But I think decriminalisation can be accommodated at the same time. What

:26:45.:26:48.

would you like to see, in 2016, in terms of funding arrangements for

:26:49.:26:52.

the BBC? Would you like to see the licence fee go up or frozen? I think

:26:53.:26:58.

it needs to be frozen until it is changed to a different mechanism.

:26:59.:27:03.

What different mechanism? I think it should be subscript. You do? But in

:27:04.:27:08.

the meantime, there are a lot of income streams the BBC can access. I

:27:09.:27:11.

know friends of mine that live abroad that would love to access the

:27:12.:27:15.

BBC, Spain, Italy or France, they are not able to and they would pay

:27:16.:27:19.

for that. There is an income stream there and I think we could make

:27:20.:27:25.

money out of iPlayer, micro-charging... But should this

:27:26.:27:33.

not be discussed... Necessity is the mother of invention. You would like

:27:34.:27:37.

to see subscript and after 2020? Probably, yes, if not sooner. What

:27:38.:27:47.

is clear is that people do not like advertisements on the BBC. That is

:27:48.:27:50.

another advantage of the licence fee. The BBC says that a

:27:51.:27:55.

subscription model would lead to more expensive fees, paid for by

:27:56.:28:00.

fewer people. Do you accept that? There are lots of different options.

:28:01.:28:04.

There is a possibility of having a smaller, concentrated licence fee

:28:05.:28:08.

and then subscription on top of that, stripping the core BBC offer

:28:09.:28:11.

down to the really obvious public service broadcasting and saying, if

:28:12.:28:16.

you want the best, you can buy through funding methods. The

:28:17.:28:18.

difficulty is you get more and more, particularly young people, not

:28:19.:28:21.

watching live programmes but watching it through their computers.

:28:22.:28:25.

They are not paying and other people sitting at home are paying. The

:28:26.:28:30.

system will become harder in time to sustain. I think the BBC need to be

:28:31.:28:32.

thinking about how they can operate in a world that has some licence

:28:33.:28:37.

fee, or no licence fee, rather than assuming that for decades to come

:28:38.:28:42.

we'll have the same system. There is a word that sends a cold chill down

:28:43.:28:45.

the spine of ministers of State, a word that can mean a brighter future

:28:46.:28:50.

in government or a humiliating exit. Reshuffles, part of the political

:28:51.:28:55.

landscape. As a junior minister, as our guest today has been, is it very

:28:56.:28:59.

fair? Does being good at the job count and does it hurt getting

:29:00.:29:04.

dumped? Being the Parliamentary under sect

:29:05.:29:09.

tree -- Undersecretary of state media have made it to Whitehall and

:29:10.:29:15.

government. Using it more usual title, being junior minister is the

:29:16.:29:20.

lowest paid run on the government ladder. And which of those bits of

:29:21.:29:25.

title you get to be, junior or minister, really depends on the

:29:26.:29:28.

character of the secretary of state and the department you are in. If

:29:29.:29:32.

you are in the Foreign Office, you can be junior minister for an entire

:29:33.:29:36.

continent. If you are in transport, you might end up junior Minister of

:29:37.:29:43.

State for cycle lanes. When I was in the environment, the transport

:29:44.:29:49.

department, a huge department, many junior ministers, life was a cascade

:29:50.:29:53.

of all the things that one's ministers didn't want to do. Some of

:29:54.:29:59.

them want to get all the headlines themselves, they will micromanage

:30:00.:30:03.

the team. What you need is ministers that know what they are about, know

:30:04.:30:06.

their brief and have the competence and relations with the outside

:30:07.:30:10.

bodies that they are there to serve and look after, to be able to push

:30:11.:30:13.

forward their programme of reform. If you have got that, then a good

:30:14.:30:16.

secretary of state should leave you alone to get on with it. If allowed,

:30:17.:30:21.

you can make a junior ministerial roll your own. Don't pussyfoot about

:30:22.:30:24.

and it is certainly a way of getting further up the ministerial ladder.

:30:25.:30:30.

Ultimately, that Cabinet table. But there is a clock ticking on your

:30:31.:30:33.

time in office. And there are a couple of really odd things about

:30:34.:30:37.

your role. First, you can get appointed without knowing the first

:30:38.:30:40.

thing about the subject you're going to cover. If you do get a handle on

:30:41.:30:44.

it, and actually get good at the job, that is no guarantee you will

:30:45.:30:48.

get to keep the job when that especially chilling word, reshuffle,

:30:49.:30:55.

gets mentioned. After a couple of years, when I think I was by that

:30:56.:30:59.

time of some use, the man in Number Ten raises its finger by this much,

:31:00.:31:03.

and you are gone, and some other poor blighter has to be briefed all

:31:04.:31:07.

over again, and the learning curve is quite steep. In the last

:31:08.:31:11.

government in office for quite a long time, there were 30 Europe

:31:12.:31:15.

ministers, eight Work and Pensions Secretary is, and nine African

:31:16.:31:18.

ministers. While the coalition has chopped and changed, it has been far

:31:19.:31:24.

less, although the added dilemma for them as been squeezing two parties

:31:25.:31:27.

into one government. Our guests today has been suffered that, being

:31:28.:31:33.

eased out for a colleague who has no beard but did raise eyebrows. There

:31:34.:31:36.

are fewer jobs for Conservative ministers, we have to share them

:31:37.:31:42.

with the Lib Dems. There is a limited gene pool to pull those

:31:43.:31:46.

ministers from, parts of the coalition as well, so it is a

:31:47.:31:52.

question of it being someone's turn, and we need to push someone up the

:31:53.:31:57.

greasy pole even if you have done a good job. It all begs the question

:31:58.:32:02.

that whilst any PM probably should retain the right to pick his or her

:32:03.:32:06.

government, does a regular switch of those who are in it made for decent

:32:07.:32:11.

government or anything more than fun for speculating politicos like as?

:32:12.:32:18.

We are joined now by journalist and former Conservative MP Michael

:32:19.:32:21.

Brown, welcome to the programme. Jeremy, are the junior post really

:32:22.:32:26.

about patronage rather than ability? They are probably a bit of both. I

:32:27.:32:32.

agree with the film that it depends quite a lot on the character of the

:32:33.:32:36.

Secretary of State and how he or she runs the department, and it depends

:32:37.:32:41.

a lot on the department itself. In some departments, junior ministers

:32:42.:32:46.

have bigger roles. Let's look at the patronage, if it is a case of that,

:32:47.:32:51.

as we heard from Tim Loughton, talking about the fact that it is

:32:52.:32:55.

such and such a person's turn, are there some people who should not be

:32:56.:32:59.

junior ministers? Let me put it slightly differently, which is that

:33:00.:33:03.

David Cameron and Nick Clegg, before then Gordon Brown and Tony Blair,

:33:04.:33:06.

had never done any jobs in government apart from being Deputy

:33:07.:33:10.

Prime Minister, Prime Minister and Chancellor. None of them had been

:33:11.:33:14.

junior ministers. I am not sure how much they know about what it is to

:33:15.:33:18.

be a junior minister and what it entails, and they may see the

:33:19.:33:24.

benefit of moving people around, freshening it up, but they may

:33:25.:33:30.

exaggerate the benefits of that and sometimes overlook the disruptive

:33:31.:33:34.

effects of it. The voters will say surely it is the best person for the

:33:35.:33:38.

job and should be about ability in these roles. So far as the boat is

:33:39.:33:42.

concerned, I suspect the only thing that the voter of the Somerset

:33:43.:33:46.

constituency that Jeremy represents is the fact that he is a Member of

:33:47.:33:50.

Parliament. I was a junior whip in the back end of the John Major

:33:51.:33:54.

government, and my being in government counted for absolutely

:33:55.:33:58.

nothing so far as my constituents were concerned. The voters are

:33:59.:34:01.

concerned about who is the Prime Minister, the Chancellor, the

:34:02.:34:05.

Foreign Secretary, maybe the Home Secretary, but beyond that, under

:34:06.:34:11.

secretaries of state are of no consequence. Do you see them as

:34:12.:34:15.

junior ministers for paperclips? Is that what the role is? Frankly, I

:34:16.:34:20.

would say to everybody that gets the chance, you have to accept the

:34:21.:34:24.

invitation to be a junior minister to know what drudgery it is. Jeremy,

:34:25.:34:30.

and by the way, anybody, and this is the words of a very senior whip in

:34:31.:34:35.

the Margaret Thatcher government who died this year, the late Robert

:34:36.:34:42.

Boscombe, he was a long serving government whip, and when he was

:34:43.:34:46.

asked his opinion about whether somebody was capable of being a

:34:47.:34:50.

junior minister he said, he can read, can't he? So long as you can

:34:51.:34:55.

read and are a Member of Parliament, those are the sole qualifications.

:34:56.:35:00.

So we assume you can read, Jeremy! There is quite a bit of drudgery,

:35:01.:35:04.

because some of the tasks are tasks that the Secretary of State does not

:35:05.:35:08.

wish to do but probably thinks that somebody should do them. Almost by

:35:09.:35:13.

definition, they are the unexciting tasks that need to keep ticking

:35:14.:35:19.

boxes. Were you upset at losing your role? Being a Foreign Office

:35:20.:35:25.

minister was more exciting than being a junior minister in the Home

:35:26.:35:29.

Office. You cover huge part of the world where the Secretary of State

:35:30.:35:34.

is unlikely to go and you are the most senior minister that that part

:35:35.:35:38.

of the world is ever going to see. But was that because the boss there

:35:39.:35:43.

debut more power and scope? That would be telling tales. Absolutely!

:35:44.:35:50.

So tell us! Anybody who has been in any workplace will know that some

:35:51.:35:54.

bosses are willing to give you a little bit more freedom and

:35:55.:35:57.

discrimination and others are more controlling. In the case of the

:35:58.:36:01.

Liberal Democrats, who have not been in government for over half a

:36:02.:36:05.

century, obviously they need to take every opportunity in this Parliament

:36:06.:36:10.

to get the experience. But I say too many of the Tories who want to be

:36:11.:36:13.

junior ministers, it is not worth the candle. Jeremy is absolutely

:36:14.:36:19.

right to say... It is easy to say that. David Cameron has never been a

:36:20.:36:24.

junior minister, nor was Tony Blair or Gordon Brown. Does it mean that

:36:25.:36:33.

he will keep it if you are suited to it? Everybody deserves a turn... Do

:36:34.:36:41.

they? Yes, I would say they do. It is important to refresh the ranks.

:36:42.:36:44.

Jeremy was obviously disappointed when he stopped being a minister,

:36:45.:36:48.

but between now and the next election he and his constituents who

:36:49.:36:56.

is -- whose confidence he hopes to retain will be grateful he is not

:36:57.:36:59.

flying around the world. That may help you in the run-up to the

:37:00.:37:03.

general election, but do you agree that everyone deserves a turn? No, I

:37:04.:37:10.

wouldn't go that far. I think there are some... I agree on the related

:37:11.:37:15.

point in that it is probably a delusion to think the perceptions of

:37:16.:37:19.

the government will be altered by the junior ministers. The people out

:37:20.:37:24.

there form their perceptions of the government based on what they think

:37:25.:37:27.

of the Prime Minister or other senior figures. Patrick McLoughlin

:37:28.:37:31.

was sacked by John Major, ten years later he became the longest serving

:37:32.:37:36.

government Chief Whip and is a very successful transport minister. Being

:37:37.:37:39.

sacked is not the end of it. Snakes and ladders, that is politics.

:37:40.:37:44.

George Young was sacked by Margaret Thatcher, he is still serving in the

:37:45.:37:49.

Government. There is hope yet! Now it is time to look at the week

:37:50.:37:53.

ahead, and we are joined by a journalist from one of the oldest

:37:54.:37:57.

newspapers in the world, Laura Patel of the Times, and one of the newest

:37:58.:38:04.

rivals, Jim Waterson of Buzzfeed. Buzzfeed is one of the

:38:05.:38:06.

fastest-growing news sites thanks to items such as witch-hunt the games

:38:07.:38:10.

character are you and 50 puppies to help you get through work today. --

:38:11.:38:17.

which hunger games character. Here is our look at the week ahead in the

:38:18.:38:21.

style of Buzzfeed. With tension still high in Crimea, the Prime

:38:22.:38:25.

Minister will make a statement this afternoon on the situation in

:38:26.:38:30.

Ukraine. Also today, the Care Bill is back in the Commons, the vote on

:38:31.:38:34.

plans to give greater power to the Health Secretary to close hospital

:38:35.:38:36.

departments will take place later in the week. And former Prime Minister

:38:37.:38:42.

Gordon Brown will today outlined six constitutional reforms as a positive

:38:43.:38:45.

alternative to Scottish independence. Tomorrow Universities

:38:46.:38:51.

Minister David Willetts will announce a UK contribution of over

:38:52.:38:56.

?200 million to three pager European space projects. Also on Tuesday, the

:38:57.:39:02.

Governor of the Bank of England appears before the Treasury Select

:39:03.:39:04.

Committee, where he will be asked about a currency union with an

:39:05.:39:09.

independent Scotland. On Wednesday, the weekly bout of Prime Minister's

:39:10.:39:13.

Questions. Thursday sees the start of the Scottish Conservative Party

:39:14.:39:16.

conference. Let's hope our guests are still there, still await! Let's

:39:17.:39:22.

talk about tax. How much of an issue is the fact that more people are

:39:23.:39:27.

being caught up in the 40p bracket? It is something that is getting Tory

:39:28.:39:31.

MPs very animated. They feel there have been tax cuts for lower paid

:39:32.:39:36.

people since George Osborne great the threshold in conjunction with

:39:37.:39:39.

the Liberal Democrats for basic rate tax, and more and more people have

:39:40.:39:43.

been sucked into the upper rate. The Conservatives consider those core

:39:44.:39:48.

voters, people earning ?40,000 or ?50,000. They have to be a little

:39:49.:39:52.

bit careful, because sometimes they talk about the squeezed middle, and

:39:53.:39:56.

those people are not necessarily the middle. The average income is about

:39:57.:40:01.

?26,000. They have to be careful with their language, but it is going

:40:02.:40:04.

after those people, doctors, train drivers, people who are in the

:40:05.:40:09.

middle bracket who could get sucked into that rate. One idea put forward

:40:10.:40:14.

at the weekend is that scrapping the rate, lowering the threshold for the

:40:15.:40:19.

45p rate to those earning around ?62,000, do you think that will gain

:40:20.:40:24.

traction? I cannot see that happening, it is a pretty strong

:40:25.:40:28.

line, you do not want to cut taxes for people who are perceived to be

:40:29.:40:32.

rich. Earning 50 grand outside London is a lot of money, but it is

:40:33.:40:36.

a London issue when you are concerned about teachers earning

:40:37.:40:41.

that. It is a case of the media seeing the capital, rather than

:40:42.:40:45.

people in Halifax struggling to get by. Do you agree that is a regional

:40:46.:40:50.

debate, London being seen as different in every way to the rest

:40:51.:40:54.

of the UK on the issue of tax as well? Yeah, I think there is an

:40:55.:40:59.

element of that, and it is easy for those in politics or the media, God

:41:00.:41:03.

forbid, to forget that there are people on low incomes outside of the

:41:04.:41:09.

capital. I was just going to say that the Tory party is trying to

:41:10.:41:13.

pitch itself in lots of directions, there was a drive for them to make

:41:14.:41:17.

themselves out as the workers' party, John Major saying, look, we

:41:18.:41:25.

can support a working-class kid from Brixton and make him Prime Minister.

:41:26.:41:28.

But then there are those who want to keep the core voters happy, a

:41:29.:41:34.

difficult balance. The Lib Dems' spring conference, obviously lots of

:41:35.:41:41.

fun, Nigel you were there, but what about the leadership issue? We had

:41:42.:41:46.

Nick Clegg, first of all asked whether he would sort of stands down

:41:47.:41:49.

if the Lib Dems weren't in government at the Lib Dems weren't

:41:50.:41:53.

in government after 2015. After response, we had a strong line, he

:41:54.:41:58.

will be there as leader until 2020 no matter what happens, which seems

:41:59.:42:01.

pretty unlikely if they are not in government. If he stayed until 2020

:42:02.:42:06.

with the Lib Dems in opposition, he would have been a leader for 13

:42:07.:42:10.

years, the public would be sick of him and he would be going out of his

:42:11.:42:16.

mind unable to do anything. Before the weekend, we heard that he was

:42:17.:42:20.

young to have a second career, possibly back in Europe. It is all a

:42:21.:42:25.

bit messy. I'm sorry, a particularly loud motorbike went past! Talking

:42:26.:42:30.

about Nick Clegg's leadership, we heard that because he is young, he

:42:31.:42:35.

has a chance of a second career, so the whole issue has been a bit

:42:36.:42:38.

messy. It was strange they did not have their ducks in a row ahead of

:42:39.:42:43.

the conference. It is impossible to speculate at this stage, really,

:42:44.:42:46.

because so many different things can happen with either rural Democrats.

:42:47.:42:51.

They could be wiped out at the next election, they could be in coalition

:42:52.:42:56.

with Labour or the Conservatives. Whether they are going to the left

:42:57.:42:59.

or the right, that will affect it was the leaders. I am sure Miriam

:43:00.:43:04.

Clegg would be delighted if he packed it in, but as she has not had

:43:05.:43:10.

a save as file. Now that motorbike has finally gone, what about the

:43:11.:43:16.

others? What about Vince Cable, Danny Alexander? If you were at the

:43:17.:43:20.

conference last autumn, you would find the left wing of the party was

:43:21.:43:26.

pretty quiet, and it was not clear whether there was support for a

:43:27.:43:30.

left-wing candidate. Tim Farron has been positioning himself, but there

:43:31.:43:37.

seems to be the economically liberal people who are remaining. I would

:43:38.:43:40.

have thought Nick Clegg, if you want to stay on, will not have any

:43:41.:43:45.

trouble for as long as it once. Can we look forward to a list on

:43:46.:43:48.

Buzzfeed of potential Lib Dem leaders? We will do our best, but I

:43:49.:43:54.

think it will be a short one! On that crushing note, thank you very

:43:55.:43:59.

much. As we heard, Nick Clegg said the hair running when the party put

:44:00.:44:03.

out a statement which appeared to suggest he would quit leadership of

:44:04.:44:06.

the party if it was not in power in 2015. By the end of the day, they

:44:07.:44:10.

said he was staying put no matter what, so what is the best way for

:44:11.:44:14.

the leader to handle that tricky question of when and how to stand

:44:15.:44:18.

down? This montage contains flash photography.

:44:19.:44:25.

Could I ask you to comment? This is the microphone. I am naturally very

:44:26.:44:30.

pleased that I got more than half the Parliamentary party,

:44:31.:44:32.

disappointed that it is not quite enough to win on the first ballot,

:44:33.:44:36.

so I confirm it is my intention to lead mining go forward on the second

:44:37.:44:41.

ballot. Today I announce my decision to stand down from the leadership of

:44:42.:44:45.

the Labour Party. The party will now select a new leader on the 27th of

:44:46.:44:52.

June, I will tender my resignation from the office of Prime Minister. I

:44:53.:44:55.

have been Prime Minister of this country for just over ten years. In

:44:56.:45:02.

this job, in the world of today, I think that's long enough. For me,

:45:03.:45:13.

but more especially for the country. I'm announcing today that when

:45:14.:45:15.

nominations open I will not be putting my name forward. I am

:45:16.:45:18.

standing down as leader, with immediate effect. Charles Kennedy,

:45:19.:45:24.

ending that montage. A trip down memory lane for the guests. We have

:45:25.:45:29.

been joined now by the Conservative Margot James and labour's Owen

:45:30.:45:33.

Smith. John McTernan is also with us, he used to advise Tony Blair on

:45:34.:45:37.

political strategy. Welcome to all of you. John McTernan, was at a

:45:38.:45:41.

fatal political mistake for Tony Blair to announce that fighting the

:45:42.:45:45.

2005 general election, he would serve a full term and step down to

:45:46.:45:49.

allow a succession to take place. Because it didn't happen? The best

:45:50.:45:53.

thing to do is what Harold Wilson did, shocked everybody. The truth

:45:54.:45:57.

is, use all leaders in the montage who all had to say what they said

:45:58.:46:02.

because they were weak and under threat. Strong leaders don't need to

:46:03.:46:05.

defend themselves, weak leaders do. The right thing to do is to breeze

:46:06.:46:09.

through all of it and say, you voted for me, I am on the ticket, it is my

:46:10.:46:13.

agenda, I will deliver it. But you can only get away with it when you

:46:14.:46:16.

are strong. As soon as you are weak, you can't get away with it, which is

:46:17.:46:23.

why Nick Clegg has questions now. Great in theory, but who says to the

:46:24.:46:26.

leader, you are weak, you are going to become weak, better to think

:46:27.:46:30.

about stepping off the stage? There are moments in politics when the

:46:31.:46:36.

forces that surround you are unbeatable, that you're going to go

:46:37.:46:40.

through the same thing again, again and again. Charles Kennedy got

:46:41.:46:44.

there. The truth is, Margaret Thatcher, you can see in her eyes

:46:45.:46:48.

she knew that she was there. The Labour Party chose, insanely, to

:46:49.:46:53.

ditch its most successful elected leader ever. The only one ever in

:46:54.:46:56.

history to win three elections in a row, never won for the election, and

:46:57.:47:02.

this is the problem. The internals become too difficult to manage. What

:47:03.:47:06.

do you say to that? It was mad for the Labour Party to ditch him, and

:47:07.:47:11.

yet, he won three elections, but it seemed his time was up? I think it

:47:12.:47:16.

was. It had been subjected to a sustained campaign of vilification

:47:17.:47:18.

from Gordon Brown and his henchmen for years. I think the Labour Party

:47:19.:47:22.

should have been careful what it wished for. It got what it wished

:47:23.:47:26.

for. Gordon Brown, really, was not a good Prime Minister. What about

:47:27.:47:31.

David Cameron? Should he stay on to 2020, come what may? David Cameron

:47:32.:47:36.

is Prime Minister, I hope you will be again after the 2015 election.

:47:37.:47:41.

There is no need for speculation. Except we have had one coalition, if

:47:42.:47:45.

the Tories do not win an overall majority, should he stay on? I think

:47:46.:47:50.

that is a decision for him. The tradition in recent years has been,

:47:51.:47:56.

I mean, the tradition has been backed leaders, prime ministers that

:47:57.:47:59.

have lost general election is, have stepped down. Conservative Party

:48:00.:48:03.

leaders have stepped down as well. But what if they don't win an

:48:04.:48:07.

overall majority, as last time? The biggest party, does not win an

:48:08.:48:11.

overall majority, has to have a coalition, should he step down?

:48:12.:48:16.

Well, he'll have various choices. He could possibly lead a minority

:48:17.:48:20.

government, he could lead a coalition. It depends on what the

:48:21.:48:25.

electorate, really, decides. Trying to prejudge it, second guess at this

:48:26.:48:30.

stage, is futile. But it isn't the electorate in the end, in those

:48:31.:48:34.

discussions, it is the party, MPs, the Cabinet in Margaret Thatcher's

:48:35.:48:38.

case, rivals within the party like Gordon Brown, they are not in

:48:39.:48:42.

charge. Nick Clegg, John McTernan says he's in that position, a weak

:48:43.:48:46.

leader, which is why those discussions are coming up now? I

:48:47.:48:50.

think it's very unhelpful. We are in a really difficult position as a

:48:51.:48:54.

party. We are on about 9% in the opinion polls, looking at a very

:48:55.:48:58.

tough European election, a very difficult general election next

:48:59.:49:01.

year. What I would say to any of my colleagues is, you know, don't go

:49:02.:49:05.

around spending your whole time telling the newspaper is what a

:49:06.:49:08.

wonderful leader you would be after the next general election, why did

:49:09.:49:11.

you get on with helping the candidate in marginal seats to make

:49:12.:49:14.

sure we are a force to be reckoned with and the leadership of Nick

:49:15.:49:17.

Clegg and can be in government again, doing the right things for

:49:18.:49:22.

the country? Is that Vince Cable and Danny Alexander? I'm not naming any

:49:23.:49:26.

names. I think if I was standing in a marginal seat, and I am standing

:49:27.:49:30.

in a marginal seat... I hate to remind you! Less marginal than it

:49:31.:49:36.

was. But if I was standing, talking to a lot of candidates in seats they

:49:37.:49:40.

are hoping to win, working extraordinarily hard, I would not be

:49:41.:49:44.

hugely impressed by anybody in the Liberal Democrats taking on spin

:49:45.:49:46.

doctors to go around telling everybody what a wonderful

:49:47.:49:48.

leadership contender they would be after the next general election.

:49:49.:49:53.

Nick Clegg is the leader, we chose him collectively and we are all

:49:54.:49:55.

behind making sure that we get the best possible election outcome. I

:49:56.:50:00.

think the rest is unhelpful. All suite in the garden for Labour, no

:50:01.:50:04.

spec elation about Ed Miliband? None. I don't think there is any.

:50:05.:50:10.

Lots about Nick Clegg, even in the Labour Party. What happens after the

:50:11.:50:16.

next election if Labour is not at least the largest party, never mind

:50:17.:50:20.

winning an overall majority? Does Ed go? I fully anticipate he's going to

:50:21.:50:25.

be the next Prime Minister, therefore... If he isn't, does he

:50:26.:50:33.

go? It's difficult to get straight answers! Don't say that, and make it

:50:34.:50:41.

more difficult for me. We can talk about Nick Clegg all day long, I

:50:42.:50:45.

think he should have gone when they lost to the Bus Pass Elvis Party. Of

:50:46.:50:50.

course it will go on and on, to coin a phrase, he will do what Tony Blair

:50:51.:50:54.

did, announcing a well before he stepped down? The guys on the other

:50:55.:50:59.

benches are your opposition, the guys on your ventures are your

:51:00.:51:02.

enemies, and you have to be strong and crush your enemies when you can.

:51:03.:51:07.

-- on your benches. Always good to use power to eliminate dissent

:51:08.:51:10.

within. Or have a party like the Labour Party at the moment, where

:51:11.:51:15.

they have united around Ed Miliband. Because there is no real surround?

:51:16.:51:20.

They were evenly split between David and Ed, they have seen what was done

:51:21.:51:24.

to the previous Labour Government by disunity and have chosen to be

:51:25.:51:27.

united. If he does not form a government, I think he will get a

:51:28.:51:33.

second shot, because he took us from 20% to 38%. Those are good numbers.

:51:34.:51:41.

So, he could still stay? Let's about Nick Clegg as well. That is a

:51:42.:51:45.

symptom of labour's weakness, that is because he does not have a

:51:46.:51:49.

challenger in his party to confront the difficult issues. Oh, come on!

:51:50.:51:53.

Did you not see the special conference? The last time they have

:51:54.:51:59.

a working majority and Tony Blair was not the leader, was the year

:52:00.:52:04.

that England won the football World Cup. They got rid of the one leader

:52:05.:52:07.

that was capable of winning and replaced him, eventually, with the

:52:08.:52:11.

current leader. Well, having a leader that didn't win an election,

:52:12.:52:16.

but certainly brought them into power, if the Lib Dems... He's the

:52:17.:52:22.

most successful Lib Dem leader in my or my grandparent's lifetime. But

:52:23.:52:27.

should he stay as leader? I could just say it's speculative and I will

:52:28.:52:32.

not speculate. But it's a perfectly possible scenario, where we have a

:52:33.:52:37.

bigger force in British politics, but not in government. It's

:52:38.:52:40.

perfectly possible one of the other two parties would prefer to be a

:52:41.:52:44.

weak minority government and be part of a strong coalition government.

:52:45.:52:48.

It's hard to answer that. Indeed, let's move on. Spring is in the air,

:52:49.:52:52.

certainly at the weekend, the daffodils are out. At Westminster we

:52:53.:52:55.

are just as excited to see the first manifesto pledges picking their way

:52:56.:53:01.

through after a long, wet winter. Labour said it would put its job

:53:02.:53:05.

guaranteed to the manifesto for the 2015 election. But does that really

:53:06.:53:09.

have the same impact it once did? Here is a reminder of some of the

:53:10.:53:12.

more memorable, or maybe not, manifesto launches. Everything was

:53:13.:53:16.

being done to smooth out any wrinkles along the way.

:53:17.:53:24.

# These words are my own! Margaret Thatcher was all set to

:53:25.:53:33.

make up ground. The Conservative manifesto, completed ten days ago,

:53:34.:53:36.

arrived at Central office just as she did. Then, jackets off for the

:53:37.:53:45.

first conference. The party is keener than ever to

:53:46.:53:49.

present a united front. At last, they believe there is a chance of

:53:50.:53:53.

beating Margaret Thatcher in the next general election.

:53:54.:54:03.

# These words are my own... Someone asked, what business is

:54:04.:54:17.

Labour in, past or future? Our answer is as clear as the question

:54:18.:54:20.

was then, we are in the future business.

:54:21.:54:31.

We say we are all in this together. So, come with others and we will

:54:32.:54:35.

build a better country together. And I'm sure our guests have got

:54:36.:54:52.

piles of previous manifestoes stacked up in their bedrooms. Let's

:54:53.:54:55.

start with Owen Smith. Would you describe the jobs guarantee that has

:54:56.:54:59.

been outlined today has a cast-iron manifesto commitment? Yes, very

:55:00.:55:05.

straightforward. What happens if you are in coalition, it stays come what

:55:06.:55:09.

May? I think it would be one of the key priorities for a Labour

:55:10.:55:13.

government. Therefore, I would be absolutely flabbergasted if a Labour

:55:14.:55:16.

government, even if we were in coalition, it stays come what May? I

:55:17.:55:19.

think it would be one of the key priorities for a Labour government.

:55:20.:55:21.

Therefore, I would be absolutely flabbergasted if a Labour

:55:22.:55:23.

government, even if we weren't coalition, and I don't anticipate we

:55:24.:55:26.

will be, would not comment that pledge. A bit like tuition fees? You

:55:27.:55:31.

said it was a red line? Everybody is about to get a tax cut, well, not

:55:32.:55:35.

everybody, most people in the country and work going to get a tax

:55:36.:55:40.

cut and that is because the main commitment in the Lib Dem manifesto.

:55:41.:55:44.

Why should anybody believe anything you say? I've told you, it was a

:55:45.:55:49.

policy, implement it in full. That might be by default, rather than

:55:50.:55:54.

design. It is because we got into government. Are manifesto is worth

:55:55.:55:59.

the paper they are written on? I looked back on our manifesto, quite

:56:00.:56:03.

a lot of things, on the economy, taking people out of tax, raising

:56:04.:56:08.

personal allowances. That was the Lib Dem policy, not in the

:56:09.:56:16.

manifesto? Taking out a Labour's increased employers national

:56:17.:56:20.

insurance, on health, ending mixed sex wards, reducing hospital

:56:21.:56:24.

infections, on education I think we have gone even beyond our manifesto

:56:25.:56:30.

Thomases. Of course, when you get into coalition, the water does get

:56:31.:56:36.

muddied. -- promises. That has a problem, because you don't know

:56:37.:56:39.

which are going to be kept. Do you think there should be I manifesto

:56:40.:56:46.

written, so you say, these are the red lines, we will not negotiate on

:56:47.:56:51.

that, then the public knows? I would advise against red lines, because if

:56:52.:56:54.

there is likely to be another coalition, it will be a process of

:56:55.:56:58.

negotiation and I think that the parties will want to get the maximum

:56:59.:57:04.

of their manifesto into a coalition agreement. And they don't want to be

:57:05.:57:09.

hampered, I don't think, by too many red lines. I think there will be

:57:10.:57:17.

some red lines. But there will have to be some negotiation, and there

:57:18.:57:21.

are Tory MPs that come on this programme and say, it's the Lib Dems

:57:22.:57:24.

fault we couldn't put all policies into practice, do you agree with

:57:25.:57:29.

that? It's a bit simplistic. If the electorate have not given one party

:57:30.:57:33.

an overall majority, either a minority government or a coalition,

:57:34.:57:37.

if it's a coalition, there has to be a process of negotiation and neither

:57:38.:57:43.

side will get everything they want. I don't think we should let the fact

:57:44.:57:47.

that we've had a coalition, and the Lib Dems going back on a core

:57:48.:57:50.

promise on their manifesto, let us believe that in future manifestoes

:57:51.:57:53.

would be worth the paper they are written on. Normally, in the normal

:57:54.:57:59.

run of politics since we have had manifestoes, most parties want to

:58:00.:58:02.

stick to what their promise and most parties recognise if you go back on

:58:03.:58:05.

promises that you make to the electorate in the manifesto you are

:58:06.:58:08.

not going to last very long. I suspect that, in some respects, the

:58:09.:58:12.

fact the Lib Dems will suffer as a result of their manifesto pledge is

:58:13.:58:17.

a measure of how important they are. We'll have to leave it there. Before

:58:18.:58:21.

we go, time for the answer to the quiz. Can you remember? Nick Clegg

:58:22.:58:25.

gave us a list of all the things he loves about Britain. Which one did

:58:26.:58:32.

he not say? I think it was the Antiques Roadshow. I think you are

:58:33.:58:37.

right, I remember the other three. He might like the Antiques

:58:38.:58:43.

Roadshow... He might do. Before Owen managed to get in with a date. Ed

:58:44.:58:50.

Miliband really likes it! Thank you to all of our guests, the one

:58:51.:58:53.

o'clock News is starting on BBC One now.

:58:54.:58:56.

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