Browse content similar to 10/03/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good afternoon, welcome to the Daily Politics. Labour has given us their | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
first firm manifesto spending pledge, an expensive one. The high | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
command says it will spend ?5 billion to give unemployed young | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
people a guaranteed job, and the promises good for the whole of the | :00:54. | :00:56. | |
next parliament if they win the election. Do the numbers add up? | :00:57. | :01:01. | |
They use hi-tech detector vans to check if you are paying your TV | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
licence, so you can watch Daily Politics! Some MPs think it is | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
nothing more than a poll tax on viewers, we will debate the issue. | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
They are sometimes known as the ministers for paperclips, they get | :01:14. | :01:17. | |
little power or glory, who would want to be a junior minister? And is | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
Labour announced their first election manifesto commitment, we | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
look back as whether they are really worth the paper they are written on. | :01:27. | :01:33. | |
All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole programme today is | :01:34. | :01:39. | |
Liberal Democrat MP and friend of the programme Jeremy Browne, and he | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
joins us fresh, if that is the word, from the Lib Dems bring conference | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
in York, where he spent the weekend talking about policy, cheering on | :01:48. | :01:51. | |
the speeches and fielding questions about the inspiration for his beard. | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
Welcome to the show. Sticking with the conference, the Lib Dems were | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
keen to talk about their record in government, but they were also | :02:01. | :02:07. | |
indulging in a new favourite pastime, having a go at UKIP. Let's | :02:08. | :02:10. | |
have a look at the surprise guest who took to the stage yesterday. | :02:11. | :02:17. | |
Hello, everybody! Nigel here. I am looking for my mate Nick to see if | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
we can have a few pints and a few smokes before our little chat on the | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
2nd of April. Have you seen him anywhere? No? Oh, all right, OK. | :02:27. | :02:36. | |
Well, I thought, you know, I'd perhaps have a chance to convince | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
him over this Europe stuff... That was in fact morally bird, the Lib | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
Dem MP, pretending to be Nigel Farage. -- Lorely Burt. I am not | :02:46. | :02:53. | |
sure that she was on the right sort of ground, I'd like Nigel Farage as | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
well as an individual. Was that wise as a gimmick? I think the contrast | :02:59. | :03:04. | |
between Nick Clegg and the Lib Dems' position and UKIP is wise, | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
because that is the big choice facing the country, not just in the | :03:10. | :03:12. | |
European elections but for our country for decades to come. As we | :03:13. | :03:18. | |
have globalisation and Moore internationalised world, there are | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
implications terms of immigration, how we get on with all parts of the | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
world, Asia in particular. The big choice facing us is whether we try | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
to embrace that, do we reject and try to make sure Britain plays an | :03:32. | :03:34. | |
active role in the world, or do we try to withdraw from it and | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
consolidate what we already have? In a way, I think the black and white | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
choice facing the country is between the Nick Clegg vision and be Nigel | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
Farage vision. Actually, it would be blurred by having Ed Miliband and | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
David Cameron there, because they do not represent anything clear. You | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
may disagree or agree with what they both say, but I think that, for the | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
electorate, is the real choice. Do the Lib Dems do, deep well? I'm not | :04:03. | :04:11. | |
sure any politicians do it well! -- comedy. You have to see them in the | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
context of being in front of a partisan audience. I think people | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
quite enjoy it, good on her for having the nerve to go. She drew the | :04:21. | :04:26. | |
short straw, didn't she? I don't know, maybe she enjoyed it! All | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
political parties, you can get a bit of fun from the activists by | :04:32. | :04:33. | |
lampooning your political opponents, and no doubt at UKIP they | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
will have a similar role for Nick Clegg. What about the policy of | :04:40. | :04:45. | |
raising the income tax threshold? Is that your policy, or was it a joint | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
policy with the Conservative Party? It is a Liberal Democrat policy that | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
is being implemented jointly in government. We are pleased that we | :04:55. | :04:57. | |
have played such a constructive role in government, that we have been | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
able to implement important policies. But let's be clear, it was | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
in the Liberal Democrat manifesto and not in the Conservative | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
manifesto, so you cannot have a more straightforward case of ownership of | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
a policy than that. No dispute that it is a Liberal Democrat policy, but | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
of course we worked collaboratively with the Conservatives in | :05:20. | :05:22. | |
government. I think they have to be convinced, because David Cameron | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
said that it was an unaffordable policy, and he would have liked to | :05:27. | :05:29. | |
be able to implement it but it would not be possible in government. I am | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
not saying they were against tax cuts for people on low and middle | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
incomes, but they wouldn't have done it on their own, and we know that | :05:38. | :05:40. | |
the cause David Cameron told us in the leadership debates that the | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
Conservatives would not do that if they were in government on their | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
own. It turns out it is affordable, and next month the policy will be | :05:49. | :05:51. | |
achieved in full. That is due to the pressure being put in government by | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
the Liberal Democrats to get that policy implemented, but let's be | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
grown up about the - there are two parties in government, we worked | :06:03. | :06:05. | |
collaboratively, and a lot of the successes of this government are due | :06:06. | :06:08. | |
to Liberal Democrat inspired policies, but we have put them in | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
effect together. So it was not grown-up to say we had to drag the | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
Conservative Party kicking and screaming into it? That is what Nick | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
Clegg said. I was not in those negotiations, but clearly the | :06:22. | :06:24. | |
Conservatives would not have done that without us, so they have to | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
have their feet held to the fire a little bit by us to say the priority | :06:29. | :06:35. | |
should not be on inheritance tax, we want the number-one priority to be | :06:36. | :06:38. | |
helping people on lower and middle incomes by making them pay less | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
tax, and that has become the main tax priority of government, but it | :06:43. | :06:49. | |
was a Lib Dem policy. How would you have characterised James | :06:50. | :06:52. | |
Brokenshire's speech on immigration in terms of blaming the middle | :06:53. | :06:55. | |
classes for immigration? Well, it is not a speech I would have made. You | :06:56. | :07:01. | |
were in the home office. I was, and I didn't make that speech! I do my | :07:02. | :07:09. | |
own cleaning in the house, and I'm afraid I don't earn enough money to | :07:10. | :07:16. | |
take on staff. I am not part of the metropolitan elite! How misguided, | :07:17. | :07:19. | |
in your mind, was that speech, or was he right? I mean, I think it was | :07:20. | :07:26. | |
a misguided speech, but the one area where he maybe was touching on a | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
point which is worth debating is that the impact of immigration can | :07:32. | :07:34. | |
be quite different on people in different parts of the economy. So | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
on the whole, it is more beneficial to affluent people, and it is less | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
beneficial to people with lower skills. But the overall message that | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
James was conveying was a bad message, because I think the joys | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
that we have as a country is not how do we lock out people and how do we | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
cut ourselves off from globalisation - it is how we can raise the skills | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
and opportunities that exist in this country to make sure that we can | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
compete in an era of globalisation, and for me the Conservatives and | :08:07. | :08:09. | |
UKIP are going down the wrong part if they think we can cut ourselves | :08:10. | :08:12. | |
off. You can never have too much of the | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
Lib Dems bring conference, and it is time for the daily quiz. -- spring | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
conference. Yesterday Nick Clegg gave us a list of all the things he | :08:22. | :08:24. | |
loves about Britain, but which one of these was not on his list? The | :08:25. | :08:30. | |
shipping forecast, the steam engine, the Antiques Roadshow, chewing while | :08:31. | :08:36. | |
abroad? At the end of the show, I'm sure Jeremy can give us the correct | :08:37. | :08:42. | |
answer. -- queueing. Nigel Evans, the former Deputy Speaker of the | :08:43. | :08:45. | |
House of Commons, goes on trial today accused of sexual offences | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
against seven men. The MP for Ribble Valley in Lincolnshire paces a jury | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
at Preston Crown Court for a trial scheduled to last around four weeks. | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
We can find out more from Ed Thomas, who was outside the court, can you | :08:58. | :09:03. | |
give us any more background? Well, Nigel Evans arrived here this | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
morning surrounded by photographers and reporters, and in courtroom one | :09:09. | :09:11. | |
at Preston County Court he faces nine charges in total, eight counts | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
of sexual and indecent assault, and one count of rape. Now, all these | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
charges are said to have happened between 2002 and last year and | :09:23. | :09:28. | |
involves seven men. Nigel Evans, throughout the whole court process, | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
has insisted that he is innocent, he pleads not guilty to all of the | :09:33. | :09:34. | |
charges. Oh! Ed, can you hear? Babbs we have | :09:35. | :09:47. | |
lost contact. What will actually happen today? Well, the first bit of | :09:48. | :09:53. | |
court business today was to swear in a jury, and potential jurors were | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
asked a number of questions, whether they were a constituent or not of | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
Nigel Evans, whether they knew him personally. This jury has now been | :10:03. | :10:08. | |
sworn in, and we also got a flavour of potential witnesses who could be | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
called to court. At last count, I heard that nine MPs could come here | :10:14. | :10:19. | |
to give evidence during this trial. This includes Conservative | :10:20. | :10:22. | |
backbenchers Sarah Wollaston, the Commons Speaker, John Bercow, and | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
the transport Secretary, Patrick McLoughlin. As you say, the case | :10:27. | :10:32. | |
could last up to five weeks, and Nigel Evans denies all the charges | :10:33. | :10:40. | |
against him. Labour leader Ed Miliband and Shadow | :10:41. | :10:42. | |
Chancellor Ed Balls are announcing a new policy today. Not only that, but | :10:43. | :10:49. | |
Labour says is their first manifesto spending pledge, and it is about the | :10:50. | :10:52. | |
compulsory jobs guarantee. Under the scheme, 18 to 24-year-olds who have | :10:53. | :10:58. | |
been out of work for one year will be offered a taxpayer subsidised job | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
lasting six months. Those who refuse risk losing benefits. The scheme | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
will also apply to adults aged 25 or over who have claimed jobseeker's | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
allowance for two years or more. Ed Balls has previously suggested that | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
the scheme would only be funded for the first year of a Labour | :11:17. | :11:19. | |
government, but he now plans to extend it for the whole of the next | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
parliament if they win in 2015. According to Labour, the first year | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
of the scheme will be paid for by a repeat bankers' bonuses tax, raising | :11:28. | :11:33. | |
?1.9 billion. After that, the project will be funded by a | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
reduction in the rate of pension tax relief of 45% down to 20% on for | :11:38. | :11:44. | |
people on more than ?125,000 per year. The Labour Party say this will | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
raise ?900 million. Critics of the plans amount to a raid on pensions | :11:50. | :11:52. | |
and that they leave a hole in funding for other key pledges, and | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
that is because Labour says it is the only project which will be | :11:58. | :12:00. | |
funded by a banker's bonus tax, which leaves open the question, how | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
will they pay for other pledges, such as their promise to build | :12:05. | :12:10. | |
200,000 homes per year by 2020? We can listen to Ed Miliband talking | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
this morning. This scheme is fully costed and we will be paying for it | :12:15. | :12:21. | |
by taxing bankers' bonuses and by restricting pensions tax relief for | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
the highest earners on over ?150,000 per year, a right and fair decision | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
to take to get our young people working again. We have got 56,000 | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
young people who have been out of work for more than 12 months, double | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
what it was when this government came to power. They are not taking | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
action, we will. Ed Miliband speaking earlier, and | :12:43. | :12:45. | |
Stephen Timms joins us now. Under the jobs guarantee, Stephen Timms, | :12:46. | :12:51. | |
long-term unemployed will be offered a job for six months, what happens | :12:52. | :12:57. | |
to them after that? We would hope that most of them would stay on in | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
those jobs. In Wales, there is a programme that is working along | :13:03. | :13:05. | |
these lines, and they are finding that young people taken on with this | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
subsidy for six months, 80% of them taken on by private companies are | :13:10. | :13:12. | |
staying on in those jobs after the end of the six months, and you can | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
understand why. Once a small company has invested six months of effort in | :13:18. | :13:20. | |
somebody, as long as they are doing OK, the employer will want to keep | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
them on. The other side of the coin is that it is cheap labour for | :13:25. | :13:33. | |
companies, bearing in mind the Government will be subsidising it, | :13:34. | :13:36. | |
six months, then back on the dole and they get a new one. The | :13:37. | :13:38. | |
Government has to watch what is going on, and the jobs fund was in | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
place before the last election, and you can make sure that kind of abuse | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
does not take place. How many companies have signed up to be | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
scheme? We have not yet announced which companies will be involved. I | :13:51. | :13:55. | |
have been speaking to a major bank about it this morning, and there is | :13:56. | :13:58. | |
a lot of enthusiasm amongst employers for helping particularly | :13:59. | :14:03. | |
unemployed young people into work, and I think we will find no shortage | :14:04. | :14:07. | |
of companies wanting to support the programme. But people will want to | :14:08. | :14:11. | |
know whether you will be able to drill that down and keep to that | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
guarantee, because we are talking about a lot of people being taken on | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
potentially. You mentioned a bank, are you hoping it will be private | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
firms and small businesses? In Wales, most of the placements are | :14:25. | :14:27. | |
with private sector firms, mostly small ones, because those are the | :14:28. | :14:30. | |
companies generating jobs at the moment, so we would certainly | :14:31. | :14:36. | |
expect, on the Welsh example, about three quarters in the private | :14:37. | :14:39. | |
sector. There will be jobs in charities, in the public sector as | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
well, but a minority. We have not yet announced any companies that | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
will definitely be delivering this. When will you make that | :14:49. | :14:52. | |
announcement? We will be progressively making those | :14:53. | :14:55. | |
announcements as people sign up between now and the election. As I | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
say, there is no shortage of enthusiasm. Enthusiasm is different | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
from people saying, we are going to take on five of the young people on | :15:05. | :15:07. | |
the dole that you are talking about, 15 or 20. You must admit that. | :15:08. | :15:15. | |
Indeed, but thankfully the economy is now growing. There are | :15:16. | :15:22. | |
opportunities for people, when there wasn't. Employers are wanting to | :15:23. | :15:25. | |
bring in people, particularly those that were out of work for a long | :15:26. | :15:29. | |
time, to make sure that they become economic reproductive com in | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
everybody's interests. Sounds like a good idea? I do think he a problem, | :15:34. | :15:40. | |
so I commend him and others for trying to deal with it. But this is | :15:41. | :15:46. | |
a big pledge? My feeling is that unemployment is going down, youth | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
and climate is going down. It's still very high? It is, that is why | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
it's important to talk about. Our levels of unemployment are much | :15:55. | :15:57. | |
lower than in southern Europe. How do you make sure you have the right | :15:58. | :16:00. | |
conditions for people to be employed? It is not just by | :16:01. | :16:03. | |
politicians announcing everybody will have a job. What it is is | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
making sure that you have flexible labour markets, skills among young | :16:09. | :16:11. | |
people that make them attractive to employers. The rest is quick fixes | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
paid for by the taxpayer. We've tried that in countries across | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
southern Europe. It's not inflexible labour markets and goodwill by | :16:21. | :16:23. | |
left-wing governments that make people employed, it is having a | :16:24. | :16:25. | |
vibrant implement markets like we have in this country. I think Jeremy | :16:26. | :16:31. | |
would recognise that there is a particular problem with people that | :16:32. | :16:34. | |
have been out of work for a long time. Young people out of work for | :16:35. | :16:36. | |
more than a year, older people out of work for more than two years. | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
More young people out of work for over a year than at any time since | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
1993. It does need special effort to get those back in work and that is | :16:45. | :16:48. | |
what we're going to do. Let's look at how you would pay for it. It | :16:49. | :16:52. | |
would be through a banker bonus tax. You know as well as I do, we had a | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
Labour shadow minister sitting here saying they pledged that banker | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
bonus tax to various schemes. Have there was all gone? More money for | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
the regional growth fund, turning empty shops into community centres, | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
building 25,000 new homes, that is all gone? If they are in the | :17:09. | :17:15. | |
manifesto, we will explain at the time had that is going to be funded. | :17:16. | :17:18. | |
Only the job guarantee will be funded from the bonus tax and the | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
restriction on pension tax relief for people earning over ?150,000 per | :17:24. | :17:27. | |
year. They will be funded differently, are you going to keep | :17:28. | :17:31. | |
all of these pledges? This is one announcement about one commitment in | :17:32. | :17:34. | |
the manifesto. We will speak about the others as the time draws near. | :17:35. | :17:38. | |
There is not a commitment to put those into the manifesto at the | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
moment. There is? The housing policy could go? They could. All of them, | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
in that case! Were those policies worth the paper they were written | :17:48. | :17:52. | |
on? What would have been saying for some time is that these are things | :17:53. | :17:55. | |
the Government could be doing now and we have explained how they could | :17:56. | :17:58. | |
be doing it now. What we have set out today is what is going to be in | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
our manifesto next year. We have this one commitment we are anxious | :18:03. | :18:05. | |
that people should hear about today. That is the banker bonus tax, ?1.9 | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
billion. Alistair Darling, former Labour Chancellor who introduced the | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
tax, said it would only be effective as a one-off. Do you agree that | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
actually it is a very ambitious figure to look at again? No, I think | :18:20. | :18:27. | |
it's very realistic. Based on? Based on the fact that banker bonuses is | :18:28. | :18:31. | |
going up again. We have seen quite large rises announced by major | :18:32. | :18:37. | |
banks. When would it apply? We would introduce it straight after the | :18:38. | :18:40. | |
election. I imagine it would apply in the financial year starting in | :18:41. | :18:43. | |
April 2015, depending on whether we get the mechanics ready in time. Do | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
you think that figure adds up? ?1.9 billion seems like a very large | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
figure. Labour's phones only add up if the banks pay they get bonuses to | :18:54. | :18:59. | |
employees. Labour presumably become a party cheerleading for banker | :19:00. | :19:02. | |
bonuses, as the only way to make their manifesto had. It is a | :19:03. | :19:08. | |
windfall tax. They are not going to do that, are they? The bonuses are | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
going up, it's appropriate that we say to those people doing very, very | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
well, you should be making a contribution to young people into | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
work. I recognise this, when the Lib Dems were in opposition for decades, | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
we used to come up with policies that were not properly costed | :19:25. | :19:27. | |
because we didn't think we would ever have doing the mend them. I | :19:28. | :19:29. | |
recognise the phenomenon that is Labour now. -- didn't have to | :19:30. | :19:35. | |
implement them. Every single time this Government has come up with a | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
proposal to get the appalling deficit down, Labour has opposed it. | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
Labour is sitting on tens of liens of pounds of costed commitments. | :19:45. | :19:47. | |
They are all going to pay for it, supposedly, by these bankers they | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
have not identified. They will keep their fingers crossed that those | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
bonuses will be so high it will pay for a handful of their commitments. | :19:57. | :20:02. | |
The bonus tax will solely play -- pay for the job guarantee. There is | :20:03. | :20:08. | |
an irony, that you needed to be high to cover this ambitious pledge? They | :20:09. | :20:14. | |
are still going up. You want them to go up, because otherwise it won't | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
add up. The amount yielded by the bonus tax will easily cover the cost | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
for the first year. The Treasury says the policy doesn't add up. You | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
claim the jobs guarantee will cost ?1.9 billion in the first year, | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
Treasury officials say it will cost ?2.6 billion per year. Have you | :20:32. | :20:34. | |
underestimated the cost of the scheme? The Treasury say they have | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
figures that it will be almost ?1 billion more. How will you convince | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
the electorate? The only basis on which that could be the case is if | :20:44. | :20:46. | |
youth unemployment is about to go through the roof. On the basis of | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
the current levels, which I hope will come down as the economy grows | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
in the next year, the cost of delivering the guarantee will | :20:56. | :20:59. | |
reduce. You're going to be taking money from older people to pay for | :21:00. | :21:02. | |
the younger generation? He will reduce the rate of pension tax | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
relief? Or people earning over ?150,000 per year. | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
If you are watching this, it means you have hopefully paid your licence | :21:12. | :21:14. | |
fee. If you haven't, watch out, we will send Andrew round first thing | :21:15. | :21:20. | |
to get it, and he can be grumpy in the morning. If you watch broadcasts | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
on your TV or other electronic device, at the moment you can be | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
convicted and fined. There are moves afoot to make it a civil offence, | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
not a criminal offence. Would this lead to more people failing to pay? | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
Let's look at the kind of high-tech TV detector vans that were in action | :21:38. | :21:40. | |
in the 19 six days. Licence dodgers watch out! The | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
Minister of Telecom indications is on the warpath. Nearly 1.25 million | :21:46. | :21:50. | |
householders watch the telly and don't buy a licence. But they'd | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
better, and quick. Vans would highly efficient equipment are out in | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
force, in an intensive campaign to cut back drastically the number of | :22:00. | :22:07. | |
welshers. He says it's a fair deal for everyone, honest folk should not | :22:08. | :22:09. | |
subsidise the others. If you switch on, be prepared to pay up. We are | :22:10. | :22:16. | |
joined now by the Conservative MP Andrew Bridgen, who has described | :22:17. | :22:19. | |
the licence fee as a poll tax and who wants to decriminalise | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
nonpayment. We're also joined by the shadow culture minister Helen | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
Goodman. Welcome both of you. Andrew Bridgen, you are proposing that the | :22:29. | :22:31. | |
nonpayment should be decriminalised, have you thought | :22:32. | :22:33. | |
through the invitations long-term for the BBC? Do you care? I do care, | :22:34. | :22:40. | |
there are many things I like about the BBC, some things I think they | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
get wrong. The relationship with the consumer, criminalising them if they | :22:45. | :22:48. | |
don't pay it, is placing a barrier to the BBC. I think it is making the | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
BBC distant and disconnected. In fact, there is some derision, in | :22:54. | :22:57. | |
some areas. And it is driven by this, this disconnect. What about | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
the figures of people that are prosecuted, can you give us an idea | :23:02. | :23:07. | |
of what we're talking about? To huge problem, a huge burden on the | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
Magistrates' Court. One in five cases in 2012 were due to nonpayment | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
of TV licences. The magistrates themselves have been calling for | :23:17. | :23:19. | |
decriminalisation for over 20 years. I had a number of e-mails from | :23:20. | :23:22. | |
magistrates supporting my campaign. If the BBC were to find out of a | :23:23. | :23:27. | |
banana republic country, where they announced they were going to have a | :23:28. | :23:30. | |
poll tax to allow people to have access to television, regardless of | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
income, and threaten people with criminal prosecution and | :23:36. | :23:37. | |
imprisonment, and that the majority of people in prison would be women | :23:38. | :23:40. | |
with children, there would be outcry, but that is what we have | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
got. It's a poll tax, it should be got rid of, no longer criminalising | :23:45. | :23:49. | |
people? I think there is a question mark about whether it is right that | :23:50. | :23:53. | |
people should end up going to prison. I also think it has to be | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
set amongst the increase of the number of people that would probably | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
not pay. For every 1% of people that don't pay, that costs 35mm is. That | :24:03. | :24:09. | |
would mean a reduction in services, fewer jobs. -- 35mm pounds. I think | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
this is one we should put into the discussions for the new royal | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
charter. Let's look at the figures. 1% increase innovation, this is the | :24:19. | :24:24. | |
BBC spokesman, it would lead to a loss of around ?35 million, the | :24:25. | :24:26. | |
equivalent of about three local radio stations. I think it's very | :24:27. | :24:32. | |
emotive to say that instead of cutting back on extra redundancy | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
payment when somebody is made redundant, all wasting ?100 million | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
on the digital initiative, it is going to be local radio stations. | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
That is very emotive. The BBC are playing a blinder on PR, but they do | :24:45. | :24:54. | |
work in media! Do you concede that there will be more income lost? It | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
is up to the BBC to set systems in place. We don't criminalise people | :25:00. | :25:02. | |
for nonpayment of parking fines, it is a civil offence and that have to | :25:03. | :25:08. | |
be connected. The timing, as Helen Goodman suggests, would it not be | :25:09. | :25:12. | |
better to tie it in on the overall funding arrangements and charter | :25:13. | :25:16. | |
renewal in 26 team? What we can see from the cross-section, the | :25:17. | :25:19. | |
political spectrum, is that there is a feeling in the House of Commons | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
that it is disproportionate to criminalise. If it is wrong, it is | :25:25. | :25:28. | |
wrong. Saying we will decriminalise it in another two years or three | :25:29. | :25:32. | |
years, it is wrong or right, if it is wrong, it is wrong now. Otherwise | :25:33. | :25:38. | |
we are going to make criminals of another 45,000 people unnecessarily. | :25:39. | :25:42. | |
Where do you stand on this? I think it is to Coney and to send people to | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
prison, but I wonder if it is a substitute of a bigger debate, along | :25:47. | :25:53. | |
the lines of the long-term funding of the BBC. There is a debate about | :25:54. | :25:57. | |
whether in 20 years time the licence fee model is going to be compatible | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
with viewing habits. But as that is the system we have at the moment, I | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
think people should pay their TV licence. What is your view in terms | :26:06. | :26:08. | |
of the sustainability of the licence fee and funding for the BBC? I | :26:09. | :26:14. | |
certainly think we can have another round with the licence fee. 97% of | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
people use the BBC. It's a very fairway, given that a lot of people | :26:19. | :26:21. | |
use it, it is cheaper than subscriptions to some other channels | :26:22. | :26:27. | |
. I think there is quite a lot of support amongst the public. It means | :26:28. | :26:30. | |
that, actually, the system for collecting the money is simple than | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
if you move over to subscription. Should we continue with the licence | :26:36. | :26:40. | |
fee model for another session? I think that is probably necessary. | :26:41. | :26:44. | |
But I think decriminalisation can be accommodated at the same time. What | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
would you like to see, in 2016, in terms of funding arrangements for | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
the BBC? Would you like to see the licence fee go up or frozen? I think | :26:53. | :26:58. | |
it needs to be frozen until it is changed to a different mechanism. | :26:59. | :27:03. | |
What different mechanism? I think it should be subscript. You do? But in | :27:04. | :27:08. | |
the meantime, there are a lot of income streams the BBC can access. I | :27:09. | :27:11. | |
know friends of mine that live abroad that would love to access the | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
BBC, Spain, Italy or France, they are not able to and they would pay | :27:16. | :27:19. | |
for that. There is an income stream there and I think we could make | :27:20. | :27:25. | |
money out of iPlayer, micro-charging... But should this | :27:26. | :27:33. | |
not be discussed... Necessity is the mother of invention. You would like | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
to see subscript and after 2020? Probably, yes, if not sooner. What | :27:38. | :27:47. | |
is clear is that people do not like advertisements on the BBC. That is | :27:48. | :27:50. | |
another advantage of the licence fee. The BBC says that a | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
subscription model would lead to more expensive fees, paid for by | :27:56. | :28:00. | |
fewer people. Do you accept that? There are lots of different options. | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
There is a possibility of having a smaller, concentrated licence fee | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
and then subscription on top of that, stripping the core BBC offer | :28:09. | :28:11. | |
down to the really obvious public service broadcasting and saying, if | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
you want the best, you can buy through funding methods. The | :28:17. | :28:18. | |
difficulty is you get more and more, particularly young people, not | :28:19. | :28:21. | |
watching live programmes but watching it through their computers. | :28:22. | :28:25. | |
They are not paying and other people sitting at home are paying. The | :28:26. | :28:30. | |
system will become harder in time to sustain. I think the BBC need to be | :28:31. | :28:32. | |
thinking about how they can operate in a world that has some licence | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
fee, or no licence fee, rather than assuming that for decades to come | :28:38. | :28:42. | |
we'll have the same system. There is a word that sends a cold chill down | :28:43. | :28:45. | |
the spine of ministers of State, a word that can mean a brighter future | :28:46. | :28:50. | |
in government or a humiliating exit. Reshuffles, part of the political | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
landscape. As a junior minister, as our guest today has been, is it very | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
fair? Does being good at the job count and does it hurt getting | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
dumped? Being the Parliamentary under sect | :29:05. | :29:09. | |
tree -- Undersecretary of state media have made it to Whitehall and | :29:10. | :29:15. | |
government. Using it more usual title, being junior minister is the | :29:16. | :29:20. | |
lowest paid run on the government ladder. And which of those bits of | :29:21. | :29:25. | |
title you get to be, junior or minister, really depends on the | :29:26. | :29:28. | |
character of the secretary of state and the department you are in. If | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
you are in the Foreign Office, you can be junior minister for an entire | :29:33. | :29:36. | |
continent. If you are in transport, you might end up junior Minister of | :29:37. | :29:43. | |
State for cycle lanes. When I was in the environment, the transport | :29:44. | :29:49. | |
department, a huge department, many junior ministers, life was a cascade | :29:50. | :29:53. | |
of all the things that one's ministers didn't want to do. Some of | :29:54. | :29:59. | |
them want to get all the headlines themselves, they will micromanage | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
the team. What you need is ministers that know what they are about, know | :30:04. | :30:06. | |
their brief and have the competence and relations with the outside | :30:07. | :30:10. | |
bodies that they are there to serve and look after, to be able to push | :30:11. | :30:13. | |
forward their programme of reform. If you have got that, then a good | :30:14. | :30:16. | |
secretary of state should leave you alone to get on with it. If allowed, | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
you can make a junior ministerial roll your own. Don't pussyfoot about | :30:22. | :30:24. | |
and it is certainly a way of getting further up the ministerial ladder. | :30:25. | :30:30. | |
Ultimately, that Cabinet table. But there is a clock ticking on your | :30:31. | :30:33. | |
time in office. And there are a couple of really odd things about | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
your role. First, you can get appointed without knowing the first | :30:38. | :30:40. | |
thing about the subject you're going to cover. If you do get a handle on | :30:41. | :30:44. | |
it, and actually get good at the job, that is no guarantee you will | :30:45. | :30:48. | |
get to keep the job when that especially chilling word, reshuffle, | :30:49. | :30:55. | |
gets mentioned. After a couple of years, when I think I was by that | :30:56. | :30:59. | |
time of some use, the man in Number Ten raises its finger by this much, | :31:00. | :31:03. | |
and you are gone, and some other poor blighter has to be briefed all | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
over again, and the learning curve is quite steep. In the last | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
government in office for quite a long time, there were 30 Europe | :31:12. | :31:15. | |
ministers, eight Work and Pensions Secretary is, and nine African | :31:16. | :31:18. | |
ministers. While the coalition has chopped and changed, it has been far | :31:19. | :31:24. | |
less, although the added dilemma for them as been squeezing two parties | :31:25. | :31:27. | |
into one government. Our guests today has been suffered that, being | :31:28. | :31:33. | |
eased out for a colleague who has no beard but did raise eyebrows. There | :31:34. | :31:36. | |
are fewer jobs for Conservative ministers, we have to share them | :31:37. | :31:42. | |
with the Lib Dems. There is a limited gene pool to pull those | :31:43. | :31:46. | |
ministers from, parts of the coalition as well, so it is a | :31:47. | :31:52. | |
question of it being someone's turn, and we need to push someone up the | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
greasy pole even if you have done a good job. It all begs the question | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
that whilst any PM probably should retain the right to pick his or her | :32:03. | :32:06. | |
government, does a regular switch of those who are in it made for decent | :32:07. | :32:11. | |
government or anything more than fun for speculating politicos like as? | :32:12. | :32:18. | |
We are joined now by journalist and former Conservative MP Michael | :32:19. | :32:21. | |
Brown, welcome to the programme. Jeremy, are the junior post really | :32:22. | :32:26. | |
about patronage rather than ability? They are probably a bit of both. I | :32:27. | :32:32. | |
agree with the film that it depends quite a lot on the character of the | :32:33. | :32:36. | |
Secretary of State and how he or she runs the department, and it depends | :32:37. | :32:41. | |
a lot on the department itself. In some departments, junior ministers | :32:42. | :32:46. | |
have bigger roles. Let's look at the patronage, if it is a case of that, | :32:47. | :32:51. | |
as we heard from Tim Loughton, talking about the fact that it is | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
such and such a person's turn, are there some people who should not be | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
junior ministers? Let me put it slightly differently, which is that | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
David Cameron and Nick Clegg, before then Gordon Brown and Tony Blair, | :33:04. | :33:06. | |
had never done any jobs in government apart from being Deputy | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
Prime Minister, Prime Minister and Chancellor. None of them had been | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
junior ministers. I am not sure how much they know about what it is to | :33:15. | :33:18. | |
be a junior minister and what it entails, and they may see the | :33:19. | :33:24. | |
benefit of moving people around, freshening it up, but they may | :33:25. | :33:30. | |
exaggerate the benefits of that and sometimes overlook the disruptive | :33:31. | :33:34. | |
effects of it. The voters will say surely it is the best person for the | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
job and should be about ability in these roles. So far as the boat is | :33:39. | :33:42. | |
concerned, I suspect the only thing that the voter of the Somerset | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
constituency that Jeremy represents is the fact that he is a Member of | :33:47. | :33:50. | |
Parliament. I was a junior whip in the back end of the John Major | :33:51. | :33:54. | |
government, and my being in government counted for absolutely | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
nothing so far as my constituents were concerned. The voters are | :33:59. | :34:01. | |
concerned about who is the Prime Minister, the Chancellor, the | :34:02. | :34:05. | |
Foreign Secretary, maybe the Home Secretary, but beyond that, under | :34:06. | :34:11. | |
secretaries of state are of no consequence. Do you see them as | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
junior ministers for paperclips? Is that what the role is? Frankly, I | :34:16. | :34:20. | |
would say to everybody that gets the chance, you have to accept the | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
invitation to be a junior minister to know what drudgery it is. Jeremy, | :34:25. | :34:30. | |
and by the way, anybody, and this is the words of a very senior whip in | :34:31. | :34:35. | |
the Margaret Thatcher government who died this year, the late Robert | :34:36. | :34:42. | |
Boscombe, he was a long serving government whip, and when he was | :34:43. | :34:46. | |
asked his opinion about whether somebody was capable of being a | :34:47. | :34:50. | |
junior minister he said, he can read, can't he? So long as you can | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
read and are a Member of Parliament, those are the sole qualifications. | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
So we assume you can read, Jeremy! There is quite a bit of drudgery, | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
because some of the tasks are tasks that the Secretary of State does not | :35:05. | :35:08. | |
wish to do but probably thinks that somebody should do them. Almost by | :35:09. | :35:13. | |
definition, they are the unexciting tasks that need to keep ticking | :35:14. | :35:19. | |
boxes. Were you upset at losing your role? Being a Foreign Office | :35:20. | :35:25. | |
minister was more exciting than being a junior minister in the Home | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
Office. You cover huge part of the world where the Secretary of State | :35:30. | :35:34. | |
is unlikely to go and you are the most senior minister that that part | :35:35. | :35:38. | |
of the world is ever going to see. But was that because the boss there | :35:39. | :35:43. | |
debut more power and scope? That would be telling tales. Absolutely! | :35:44. | :35:50. | |
So tell us! Anybody who has been in any workplace will know that some | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
bosses are willing to give you a little bit more freedom and | :35:55. | :35:57. | |
discrimination and others are more controlling. In the case of the | :35:58. | :36:01. | |
Liberal Democrats, who have not been in government for over half a | :36:02. | :36:05. | |
century, obviously they need to take every opportunity in this Parliament | :36:06. | :36:10. | |
to get the experience. But I say too many of the Tories who want to be | :36:11. | :36:13. | |
junior ministers, it is not worth the candle. Jeremy is absolutely | :36:14. | :36:19. | |
right to say... It is easy to say that. David Cameron has never been a | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
junior minister, nor was Tony Blair or Gordon Brown. Does it mean that | :36:25. | :36:33. | |
he will keep it if you are suited to it? Everybody deserves a turn... Do | :36:34. | :36:41. | |
they? Yes, I would say they do. It is important to refresh the ranks. | :36:42. | :36:44. | |
Jeremy was obviously disappointed when he stopped being a minister, | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
but between now and the next election he and his constituents who | :36:49. | :36:56. | |
is -- whose confidence he hopes to retain will be grateful he is not | :36:57. | :36:59. | |
flying around the world. That may help you in the run-up to the | :37:00. | :37:03. | |
general election, but do you agree that everyone deserves a turn? No, I | :37:04. | :37:10. | |
wouldn't go that far. I think there are some... I agree on the related | :37:11. | :37:15. | |
point in that it is probably a delusion to think the perceptions of | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
the government will be altered by the junior ministers. The people out | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
there form their perceptions of the government based on what they think | :37:25. | :37:27. | |
of the Prime Minister or other senior figures. Patrick McLoughlin | :37:28. | :37:31. | |
was sacked by John Major, ten years later he became the longest serving | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
government Chief Whip and is a very successful transport minister. Being | :37:37. | :37:39. | |
sacked is not the end of it. Snakes and ladders, that is politics. | :37:40. | :37:44. | |
George Young was sacked by Margaret Thatcher, he is still serving in the | :37:45. | :37:49. | |
Government. There is hope yet! Now it is time to look at the week | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
ahead, and we are joined by a journalist from one of the oldest | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
newspapers in the world, Laura Patel of the Times, and one of the newest | :37:58. | :38:04. | |
rivals, Jim Waterson of Buzzfeed. Buzzfeed is one of the | :38:05. | :38:06. | |
fastest-growing news sites thanks to items such as witch-hunt the games | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
character are you and 50 puppies to help you get through work today. -- | :38:11. | :38:17. | |
which hunger games character. Here is our look at the week ahead in the | :38:18. | :38:21. | |
style of Buzzfeed. With tension still high in Crimea, the Prime | :38:22. | :38:25. | |
Minister will make a statement this afternoon on the situation in | :38:26. | :38:30. | |
Ukraine. Also today, the Care Bill is back in the Commons, the vote on | :38:31. | :38:34. | |
plans to give greater power to the Health Secretary to close hospital | :38:35. | :38:36. | |
departments will take place later in the week. And former Prime Minister | :38:37. | :38:42. | |
Gordon Brown will today outlined six constitutional reforms as a positive | :38:43. | :38:45. | |
alternative to Scottish independence. Tomorrow Universities | :38:46. | :38:51. | |
Minister David Willetts will announce a UK contribution of over | :38:52. | :38:56. | |
?200 million to three pager European space projects. Also on Tuesday, the | :38:57. | :39:02. | |
Governor of the Bank of England appears before the Treasury Select | :39:03. | :39:04. | |
Committee, where he will be asked about a currency union with an | :39:05. | :39:09. | |
independent Scotland. On Wednesday, the weekly bout of Prime Minister's | :39:10. | :39:13. | |
Questions. Thursday sees the start of the Scottish Conservative Party | :39:14. | :39:16. | |
conference. Let's hope our guests are still there, still await! Let's | :39:17. | :39:22. | |
talk about tax. How much of an issue is the fact that more people are | :39:23. | :39:27. | |
being caught up in the 40p bracket? It is something that is getting Tory | :39:28. | :39:31. | |
MPs very animated. They feel there have been tax cuts for lower paid | :39:32. | :39:36. | |
people since George Osborne great the threshold in conjunction with | :39:37. | :39:39. | |
the Liberal Democrats for basic rate tax, and more and more people have | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
been sucked into the upper rate. The Conservatives consider those core | :39:44. | :39:48. | |
voters, people earning ?40,000 or ?50,000. They have to be a little | :39:49. | :39:52. | |
bit careful, because sometimes they talk about the squeezed middle, and | :39:53. | :39:56. | |
those people are not necessarily the middle. The average income is about | :39:57. | :40:01. | |
?26,000. They have to be careful with their language, but it is going | :40:02. | :40:04. | |
after those people, doctors, train drivers, people who are in the | :40:05. | :40:09. | |
middle bracket who could get sucked into that rate. One idea put forward | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
at the weekend is that scrapping the rate, lowering the threshold for the | :40:15. | :40:19. | |
45p rate to those earning around ?62,000, do you think that will gain | :40:20. | :40:24. | |
traction? I cannot see that happening, it is a pretty strong | :40:25. | :40:28. | |
line, you do not want to cut taxes for people who are perceived to be | :40:29. | :40:32. | |
rich. Earning 50 grand outside London is a lot of money, but it is | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
a London issue when you are concerned about teachers earning | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
that. It is a case of the media seeing the capital, rather than | :40:42. | :40:45. | |
people in Halifax struggling to get by. Do you agree that is a regional | :40:46. | :40:50. | |
debate, London being seen as different in every way to the rest | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
of the UK on the issue of tax as well? Yeah, I think there is an | :40:55. | :40:59. | |
element of that, and it is easy for those in politics or the media, God | :41:00. | :41:03. | |
forbid, to forget that there are people on low incomes outside of the | :41:04. | :41:09. | |
capital. I was just going to say that the Tory party is trying to | :41:10. | :41:13. | |
pitch itself in lots of directions, there was a drive for them to make | :41:14. | :41:17. | |
themselves out as the workers' party, John Major saying, look, we | :41:18. | :41:25. | |
can support a working-class kid from Brixton and make him Prime Minister. | :41:26. | :41:28. | |
But then there are those who want to keep the core voters happy, a | :41:29. | :41:34. | |
difficult balance. The Lib Dems' spring conference, obviously lots of | :41:35. | :41:41. | |
fun, Nigel you were there, but what about the leadership issue? We had | :41:42. | :41:46. | |
Nick Clegg, first of all asked whether he would sort of stands down | :41:47. | :41:49. | |
if the Lib Dems weren't in government at the Lib Dems weren't | :41:50. | :41:53. | |
in government after 2015. After response, we had a strong line, he | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
will be there as leader until 2020 no matter what happens, which seems | :41:59. | :42:01. | |
pretty unlikely if they are not in government. If he stayed until 2020 | :42:02. | :42:06. | |
with the Lib Dems in opposition, he would have been a leader for 13 | :42:07. | :42:10. | |
years, the public would be sick of him and he would be going out of his | :42:11. | :42:16. | |
mind unable to do anything. Before the weekend, we heard that he was | :42:17. | :42:20. | |
young to have a second career, possibly back in Europe. It is all a | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
bit messy. I'm sorry, a particularly loud motorbike went past! Talking | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
about Nick Clegg's leadership, we heard that because he is young, he | :42:31. | :42:35. | |
has a chance of a second career, so the whole issue has been a bit | :42:36. | :42:38. | |
messy. It was strange they did not have their ducks in a row ahead of | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
the conference. It is impossible to speculate at this stage, really, | :42:44. | :42:46. | |
because so many different things can happen with either rural Democrats. | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
They could be wiped out at the next election, they could be in coalition | :42:52. | :42:56. | |
with Labour or the Conservatives. Whether they are going to the left | :42:57. | :42:59. | |
or the right, that will affect it was the leaders. I am sure Miriam | :43:00. | :43:04. | |
Clegg would be delighted if he packed it in, but as she has not had | :43:05. | :43:10. | |
a save as file. Now that motorbike has finally gone, what about the | :43:11. | :43:16. | |
others? What about Vince Cable, Danny Alexander? If you were at the | :43:17. | :43:20. | |
conference last autumn, you would find the left wing of the party was | :43:21. | :43:26. | |
pretty quiet, and it was not clear whether there was support for a | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
left-wing candidate. Tim Farron has been positioning himself, but there | :43:31. | :43:37. | |
seems to be the economically liberal people who are remaining. I would | :43:38. | :43:40. | |
have thought Nick Clegg, if you want to stay on, will not have any | :43:41. | :43:45. | |
trouble for as long as it once. Can we look forward to a list on | :43:46. | :43:48. | |
Buzzfeed of potential Lib Dem leaders? We will do our best, but I | :43:49. | :43:54. | |
think it will be a short one! On that crushing note, thank you very | :43:55. | :43:59. | |
much. As we heard, Nick Clegg said the hair running when the party put | :44:00. | :44:03. | |
out a statement which appeared to suggest he would quit leadership of | :44:04. | :44:06. | |
the party if it was not in power in 2015. By the end of the day, they | :44:07. | :44:10. | |
said he was staying put no matter what, so what is the best way for | :44:11. | :44:14. | |
the leader to handle that tricky question of when and how to stand | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
down? This montage contains flash photography. | :44:19. | :44:25. | |
Could I ask you to comment? This is the microphone. I am naturally very | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
pleased that I got more than half the Parliamentary party, | :44:31. | :44:32. | |
disappointed that it is not quite enough to win on the first ballot, | :44:33. | :44:36. | |
so I confirm it is my intention to lead mining go forward on the second | :44:37. | :44:41. | |
ballot. Today I announce my decision to stand down from the leadership of | :44:42. | :44:45. | |
the Labour Party. The party will now select a new leader on the 27th of | :44:46. | :44:52. | |
June, I will tender my resignation from the office of Prime Minister. I | :44:53. | :44:55. | |
have been Prime Minister of this country for just over ten years. In | :44:56. | :45:02. | |
this job, in the world of today, I think that's long enough. For me, | :45:03. | :45:13. | |
but more especially for the country. I'm announcing today that when | :45:14. | :45:15. | |
nominations open I will not be putting my name forward. I am | :45:16. | :45:18. | |
standing down as leader, with immediate effect. Charles Kennedy, | :45:19. | :45:24. | |
ending that montage. A trip down memory lane for the guests. We have | :45:25. | :45:29. | |
been joined now by the Conservative Margot James and labour's Owen | :45:30. | :45:33. | |
Smith. John McTernan is also with us, he used to advise Tony Blair on | :45:34. | :45:37. | |
political strategy. Welcome to all of you. John McTernan, was at a | :45:38. | :45:41. | |
fatal political mistake for Tony Blair to announce that fighting the | :45:42. | :45:45. | |
2005 general election, he would serve a full term and step down to | :45:46. | :45:49. | |
allow a succession to take place. Because it didn't happen? The best | :45:50. | :45:53. | |
thing to do is what Harold Wilson did, shocked everybody. The truth | :45:54. | :45:57. | |
is, use all leaders in the montage who all had to say what they said | :45:58. | :46:02. | |
because they were weak and under threat. Strong leaders don't need to | :46:03. | :46:05. | |
defend themselves, weak leaders do. The right thing to do is to breeze | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
through all of it and say, you voted for me, I am on the ticket, it is my | :46:10. | :46:13. | |
agenda, I will deliver it. But you can only get away with it when you | :46:14. | :46:16. | |
are strong. As soon as you are weak, you can't get away with it, which is | :46:17. | :46:23. | |
why Nick Clegg has questions now. Great in theory, but who says to the | :46:24. | :46:26. | |
leader, you are weak, you are going to become weak, better to think | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
about stepping off the stage? There are moments in politics when the | :46:31. | :46:36. | |
forces that surround you are unbeatable, that you're going to go | :46:37. | :46:40. | |
through the same thing again, again and again. Charles Kennedy got | :46:41. | :46:44. | |
there. The truth is, Margaret Thatcher, you can see in her eyes | :46:45. | :46:48. | |
she knew that she was there. The Labour Party chose, insanely, to | :46:49. | :46:53. | |
ditch its most successful elected leader ever. The only one ever in | :46:54. | :46:56. | |
history to win three elections in a row, never won for the election, and | :46:57. | :47:02. | |
this is the problem. The internals become too difficult to manage. What | :47:03. | :47:06. | |
do you say to that? It was mad for the Labour Party to ditch him, and | :47:07. | :47:11. | |
yet, he won three elections, but it seemed his time was up? I think it | :47:12. | :47:16. | |
was. It had been subjected to a sustained campaign of vilification | :47:17. | :47:18. | |
from Gordon Brown and his henchmen for years. I think the Labour Party | :47:19. | :47:22. | |
should have been careful what it wished for. It got what it wished | :47:23. | :47:26. | |
for. Gordon Brown, really, was not a good Prime Minister. What about | :47:27. | :47:31. | |
David Cameron? Should he stay on to 2020, come what may? David Cameron | :47:32. | :47:36. | |
is Prime Minister, I hope you will be again after the 2015 election. | :47:37. | :47:41. | |
There is no need for speculation. Except we have had one coalition, if | :47:42. | :47:45. | |
the Tories do not win an overall majority, should he stay on? I think | :47:46. | :47:50. | |
that is a decision for him. The tradition in recent years has been, | :47:51. | :47:56. | |
I mean, the tradition has been backed leaders, prime ministers that | :47:57. | :47:59. | |
have lost general election is, have stepped down. Conservative Party | :48:00. | :48:03. | |
leaders have stepped down as well. But what if they don't win an | :48:04. | :48:07. | |
overall majority, as last time? The biggest party, does not win an | :48:08. | :48:11. | |
overall majority, has to have a coalition, should he step down? | :48:12. | :48:16. | |
Well, he'll have various choices. He could possibly lead a minority | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
government, he could lead a coalition. It depends on what the | :48:21. | :48:25. | |
electorate, really, decides. Trying to prejudge it, second guess at this | :48:26. | :48:30. | |
stage, is futile. But it isn't the electorate in the end, in those | :48:31. | :48:34. | |
discussions, it is the party, MPs, the Cabinet in Margaret Thatcher's | :48:35. | :48:38. | |
case, rivals within the party like Gordon Brown, they are not in | :48:39. | :48:42. | |
charge. Nick Clegg, John McTernan says he's in that position, a weak | :48:43. | :48:46. | |
leader, which is why those discussions are coming up now? I | :48:47. | :48:50. | |
think it's very unhelpful. We are in a really difficult position as a | :48:51. | :48:54. | |
party. We are on about 9% in the opinion polls, looking at a very | :48:55. | :48:58. | |
tough European election, a very difficult general election next | :48:59. | :49:01. | |
year. What I would say to any of my colleagues is, you know, don't go | :49:02. | :49:05. | |
around spending your whole time telling the newspaper is what a | :49:06. | :49:08. | |
wonderful leader you would be after the next general election, why did | :49:09. | :49:11. | |
you get on with helping the candidate in marginal seats to make | :49:12. | :49:14. | |
sure we are a force to be reckoned with and the leadership of Nick | :49:15. | :49:17. | |
Clegg and can be in government again, doing the right things for | :49:18. | :49:22. | |
the country? Is that Vince Cable and Danny Alexander? I'm not naming any | :49:23. | :49:26. | |
names. I think if I was standing in a marginal seat, and I am standing | :49:27. | :49:30. | |
in a marginal seat... I hate to remind you! Less marginal than it | :49:31. | :49:36. | |
was. But if I was standing, talking to a lot of candidates in seats they | :49:37. | :49:40. | |
are hoping to win, working extraordinarily hard, I would not be | :49:41. | :49:44. | |
hugely impressed by anybody in the Liberal Democrats taking on spin | :49:45. | :49:46. | |
doctors to go around telling everybody what a wonderful | :49:47. | :49:48. | |
leadership contender they would be after the next general election. | :49:49. | :49:53. | |
Nick Clegg is the leader, we chose him collectively and we are all | :49:54. | :49:55. | |
behind making sure that we get the best possible election outcome. I | :49:56. | :50:00. | |
think the rest is unhelpful. All suite in the garden for Labour, no | :50:01. | :50:04. | |
spec elation about Ed Miliband? None. I don't think there is any. | :50:05. | :50:10. | |
Lots about Nick Clegg, even in the Labour Party. What happens after the | :50:11. | :50:16. | |
next election if Labour is not at least the largest party, never mind | :50:17. | :50:20. | |
winning an overall majority? Does Ed go? I fully anticipate he's going to | :50:21. | :50:25. | |
be the next Prime Minister, therefore... If he isn't, does he | :50:26. | :50:33. | |
go? It's difficult to get straight answers! Don't say that, and make it | :50:34. | :50:41. | |
more difficult for me. We can talk about Nick Clegg all day long, I | :50:42. | :50:45. | |
think he should have gone when they lost to the Bus Pass Elvis Party. Of | :50:46. | :50:50. | |
course it will go on and on, to coin a phrase, he will do what Tony Blair | :50:51. | :50:54. | |
did, announcing a well before he stepped down? The guys on the other | :50:55. | :50:59. | |
benches are your opposition, the guys on your ventures are your | :51:00. | :51:02. | |
enemies, and you have to be strong and crush your enemies when you can. | :51:03. | :51:07. | |
-- on your benches. Always good to use power to eliminate dissent | :51:08. | :51:10. | |
within. Or have a party like the Labour Party at the moment, where | :51:11. | :51:15. | |
they have united around Ed Miliband. Because there is no real surround? | :51:16. | :51:20. | |
They were evenly split between David and Ed, they have seen what was done | :51:21. | :51:24. | |
to the previous Labour Government by disunity and have chosen to be | :51:25. | :51:27. | |
united. If he does not form a government, I think he will get a | :51:28. | :51:33. | |
second shot, because he took us from 20% to 38%. Those are good numbers. | :51:34. | :51:41. | |
So, he could still stay? Let's about Nick Clegg as well. That is a | :51:42. | :51:45. | |
symptom of labour's weakness, that is because he does not have a | :51:46. | :51:49. | |
challenger in his party to confront the difficult issues. Oh, come on! | :51:50. | :51:53. | |
Did you not see the special conference? The last time they have | :51:54. | :51:59. | |
a working majority and Tony Blair was not the leader, was the year | :52:00. | :52:04. | |
that England won the football World Cup. They got rid of the one leader | :52:05. | :52:07. | |
that was capable of winning and replaced him, eventually, with the | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
current leader. Well, having a leader that didn't win an election, | :52:12. | :52:16. | |
but certainly brought them into power, if the Lib Dems... He's the | :52:17. | :52:22. | |
most successful Lib Dem leader in my or my grandparent's lifetime. But | :52:23. | :52:27. | |
should he stay as leader? I could just say it's speculative and I will | :52:28. | :52:32. | |
not speculate. But it's a perfectly possible scenario, where we have a | :52:33. | :52:37. | |
bigger force in British politics, but not in government. It's | :52:38. | :52:40. | |
perfectly possible one of the other two parties would prefer to be a | :52:41. | :52:44. | |
weak minority government and be part of a strong coalition government. | :52:45. | :52:48. | |
It's hard to answer that. Indeed, let's move on. Spring is in the air, | :52:49. | :52:52. | |
certainly at the weekend, the daffodils are out. At Westminster we | :52:53. | :52:55. | |
are just as excited to see the first manifesto pledges picking their way | :52:56. | :53:01. | |
through after a long, wet winter. Labour said it would put its job | :53:02. | :53:05. | |
guaranteed to the manifesto for the 2015 election. But does that really | :53:06. | :53:09. | |
have the same impact it once did? Here is a reminder of some of the | :53:10. | :53:12. | |
more memorable, or maybe not, manifesto launches. Everything was | :53:13. | :53:16. | |
being done to smooth out any wrinkles along the way. | :53:17. | :53:24. | |
# These words are my own! Margaret Thatcher was all set to | :53:25. | :53:33. | |
make up ground. The Conservative manifesto, completed ten days ago, | :53:34. | :53:36. | |
arrived at Central office just as she did. Then, jackets off for the | :53:37. | :53:45. | |
first conference. The party is keener than ever to | :53:46. | :53:49. | |
present a united front. At last, they believe there is a chance of | :53:50. | :53:53. | |
beating Margaret Thatcher in the next general election. | :53:54. | :54:03. | |
# These words are my own... Someone asked, what business is | :54:04. | :54:17. | |
Labour in, past or future? Our answer is as clear as the question | :54:18. | :54:20. | |
was then, we are in the future business. | :54:21. | :54:31. | |
We say we are all in this together. So, come with others and we will | :54:32. | :54:35. | |
build a better country together. And I'm sure our guests have got | :54:36. | :54:52. | |
piles of previous manifestoes stacked up in their bedrooms. Let's | :54:53. | :54:55. | |
start with Owen Smith. Would you describe the jobs guarantee that has | :54:56. | :54:59. | |
been outlined today has a cast-iron manifesto commitment? Yes, very | :55:00. | :55:05. | |
straightforward. What happens if you are in coalition, it stays come what | :55:06. | :55:09. | |
May? I think it would be one of the key priorities for a Labour | :55:10. | :55:13. | |
government. Therefore, I would be absolutely flabbergasted if a Labour | :55:14. | :55:16. | |
government, even if we were in coalition, it stays come what May? I | :55:17. | :55:19. | |
think it would be one of the key priorities for a Labour government. | :55:20. | :55:21. | |
Therefore, I would be absolutely flabbergasted if a Labour | :55:22. | :55:23. | |
government, even if we weren't coalition, and I don't anticipate we | :55:24. | :55:26. | |
will be, would not comment that pledge. A bit like tuition fees? You | :55:27. | :55:31. | |
said it was a red line? Everybody is about to get a tax cut, well, not | :55:32. | :55:35. | |
everybody, most people in the country and work going to get a tax | :55:36. | :55:40. | |
cut and that is because the main commitment in the Lib Dem manifesto. | :55:41. | :55:44. | |
Why should anybody believe anything you say? I've told you, it was a | :55:45. | :55:49. | |
policy, implement it in full. That might be by default, rather than | :55:50. | :55:54. | |
design. It is because we got into government. Are manifesto is worth | :55:55. | :55:59. | |
the paper they are written on? I looked back on our manifesto, quite | :56:00. | :56:03. | |
a lot of things, on the economy, taking people out of tax, raising | :56:04. | :56:08. | |
personal allowances. That was the Lib Dem policy, not in the | :56:09. | :56:16. | |
manifesto? Taking out a Labour's increased employers national | :56:17. | :56:20. | |
insurance, on health, ending mixed sex wards, reducing hospital | :56:21. | :56:24. | |
infections, on education I think we have gone even beyond our manifesto | :56:25. | :56:30. | |
Thomases. Of course, when you get into coalition, the water does get | :56:31. | :56:36. | |
muddied. -- promises. That has a problem, because you don't know | :56:37. | :56:39. | |
which are going to be kept. Do you think there should be I manifesto | :56:40. | :56:46. | |
written, so you say, these are the red lines, we will not negotiate on | :56:47. | :56:51. | |
that, then the public knows? I would advise against red lines, because if | :56:52. | :56:54. | |
there is likely to be another coalition, it will be a process of | :56:55. | :56:58. | |
negotiation and I think that the parties will want to get the maximum | :56:59. | :57:04. | |
of their manifesto into a coalition agreement. And they don't want to be | :57:05. | :57:09. | |
hampered, I don't think, by too many red lines. I think there will be | :57:10. | :57:17. | |
some red lines. But there will have to be some negotiation, and there | :57:18. | :57:21. | |
are Tory MPs that come on this programme and say, it's the Lib Dems | :57:22. | :57:24. | |
fault we couldn't put all policies into practice, do you agree with | :57:25. | :57:29. | |
that? It's a bit simplistic. If the electorate have not given one party | :57:30. | :57:33. | |
an overall majority, either a minority government or a coalition, | :57:34. | :57:37. | |
if it's a coalition, there has to be a process of negotiation and neither | :57:38. | :57:43. | |
side will get everything they want. I don't think we should let the fact | :57:44. | :57:47. | |
that we've had a coalition, and the Lib Dems going back on a core | :57:48. | :57:50. | |
promise on their manifesto, let us believe that in future manifestoes | :57:51. | :57:53. | |
would be worth the paper they are written on. Normally, in the normal | :57:54. | :57:59. | |
run of politics since we have had manifestoes, most parties want to | :58:00. | :58:02. | |
stick to what their promise and most parties recognise if you go back on | :58:03. | :58:05. | |
promises that you make to the electorate in the manifesto you are | :58:06. | :58:08. | |
not going to last very long. I suspect that, in some respects, the | :58:09. | :58:12. | |
fact the Lib Dems will suffer as a result of their manifesto pledge is | :58:13. | :58:17. | |
a measure of how important they are. We'll have to leave it there. Before | :58:18. | :58:21. | |
we go, time for the answer to the quiz. Can you remember? Nick Clegg | :58:22. | :58:25. | |
gave us a list of all the things he loves about Britain. Which one did | :58:26. | :58:32. | |
he not say? I think it was the Antiques Roadshow. I think you are | :58:33. | :58:37. | |
right, I remember the other three. He might like the Antiques | :58:38. | :58:43. | |
Roadshow... He might do. Before Owen managed to get in with a date. Ed | :58:44. | :58:50. | |
Miliband really likes it! Thank you to all of our guests, the one | :58:51. | :58:53. | |
o'clock News is starting on BBC One now. | :58:54. | :58:56. |