07/03/2014 Daily Politics


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Good afternoon and welcome to the Daily Politics.


The Lib Dems meet to prepare for local and European elections - are


they in danger of being wiped out in that contest and becoming the fourth


party in British politics? The big Clegg - Farage bout is on. We'll


preview what could be the bloodiest debate of the political year.


The glitterati of centre-right European politics descend on Dublin


to pick the man they want to take the EU's top job - but David Cameron


won't be there. We'll tell you what we're missing out on. There is a


headline that says I will be the first singing black Prime Minister.


And he's been dubbed "the singing politician" by sir Tom Jones - we


talk to Jermain Jackman from The Voice.


All that in the next hour and with us for the whole programme today,


two journalists who we'd all turn for - the Editor of the Spectator,


Fraser Nelson and the Guardian's Zoe Williams. Welcome to the programme.


Let's start with the latest disturbing revelations about the


Metropolitan Police's investigation into the murder of Stephen Lawrence


21 years ago now. The Home Secretary has announced a new public inquiry


after is it was revealed that the Met spied on the Lawrence family in


an attempt to "smear them" and withheld information from the


Macpherson inquiry that may have revealed that one of the


investigating officers was corrupt. In an emotional speech in the House


of Lords, Stephen's mother, Doreen Lawrence - who is now a Labour Peer


- thanked Home Secretary Theresa May for setting up the review. I think


when we embarked on the corruption case, I knew there was always


something and it was through difficult to convince other people


around me, especially other police officers. And even at times, the


Home Secretary, that I believed there was corruption at the start of


Stephen's case. It has taken over a year for that, but it has taken


nearly 21 years since Stephen has been killed. The fact that he is our


family... -- our family had to go through all this, and still there is


more to come out. An emotional Doreen Lawrence. Which of these


dreadful revelations is the most shocking? It is really hard to save


or that she is such a moving speaker. It is impossible to watch


her without feeling what she is feeling. The police have never


covered themselves in glory with this. It would have been bad enough


if we were dealing with incompetence. The thing is that


since the MacPherson import, there have been so many revelations


surrounding that -- the Macpherson report. The stuff around the


infiltration of groups, the stuff around going after law-abiding


citizens to no obvious purpose. As she said, this isn't that much of a


surprise. Were you that shocked? I actually was that shocked, to find


out the police had been putting spy not only in their camp but that this


unit was involved in more cases that may result in miscarriages of


justice, that was the most shocking thing, the idea that we could have


criminal cases where there could be a miscarriage of justice because the


police were hiding the facts of what their spies were up to. They have


had spies imperfectly legitimate environmental groups, and our kick


groups that were just politically experimenting, and we have known


about that for a couple of years. I think in a way, the shock has been


that we haven't taken seriously the infiltration generally. Because it


has never been OK for the police to act like that. I would disagree, I


think in some circumstances it is necessary for the police to put


spies in certain camps. Environmental camps? Especially!


What is shocking is that they were keeping the secret internally. I


think if you have a culture of being allowed to use spies wherever you


like without discretion, of course you will end up covering it up. I am


not at all surprised about the cover-ups. Is that really the part


that is going to injure, as far as the Met's reputation is concerned?


That they withheld information and blocked the Macpherson inquiry, and


it is going to keep tripping out until it is all out there? --


dripping out. It is difficult to tell between deliberate secrecy and


incompetence with the police. When you listen to stories about spies


coming back in, having been embedded for years with groups, they would


come back in and managers wouldn't even know who they were. There is an


argument about whether some is justifiable and some is not, and the


STS has now been disbanded -- the SDS has been disbanded. What will a


public inquiry do, is it the right thing? I think it is, this has been


going on for years. What else were the SDS involved in, where were the


miscarriages of justice? This needs to be investigated to the end, until


we know which other cases could have been corrupted or compromised. One


of the other things Doreen Lawrence said is that you still can't trust


them, trust and confidence in the Met is going to go right down. She


feels the religion chip has not changed, do you think it is true --


the relationship. How big a problem is it, the constant denting public


trust, Hillsborough, plebgate, this... There is still a huge


problem with racism in the police. If you look at what the Duggan


family say about the experience of being a young black man who hasn't


done anything... On his way to buy a gun. Distinct from Mark Duggan, in


the life that you live, the number of times you are harassed and


hassled by the police... I didn't phrase it very well. But there is


still a huge problem of racism that comes up again and again and nothing


will go away until that goes away. Now - the Lib Dems meet in York this


afternoon for their Spring Conference where their minds will be


focussed on May's local and European elections. The party president, Tim


Farron, has warned that the party could be wiped out in those


elections. There's probably a bit of expectation management there, but


with ministers in Government they are no longer attracting the protest


vote. So what's the future for a party that's now regularly coming


fourth in the polls behind UKIP. Here's Alex Forsyth.


I declare that David is duly elected member of Parliament for the


Eastleigh constituency. It is 1994 and in the background, a freshfaced


Nigel Farage in UKIP's first-ever attempt to win a Parliamentary seat.


This was an Eastleigh by-election, the Lib Dems won, UKIP polled


pulley. Fast forward to last year, another by-election in Eastleigh,


again the Lib Dems won but this time their vote plummeted and UKIP


finished a close second. This Lib Dem stronghold might not seem the


natural place for a UKIP charge, but in a railway town with industrial


roots, they appeal to the common man. They are saying what people


want, are the people are not doing it. They are good, I can't think of


the guys name but he is a really nice guy. UKIP claim they are on


track for some good results while Lib Dems support is heading for the


buffers. Click finish the Liberal Democrat -- Nick Clegg finished the


Liberal Democrats off when he stood in the Rose Garden. Nobody trust


them. If you vote Liberal Democrat, you made get Labour or Conservative.


Edge you may get. UKIP's anti-immigration message is popular.


Does the distant relative of Guy Fawkes share his ancestor's


ambitions for Parliament? I would rather achieve our goal peacefully


rather than exploding onto the scene! This leaked Lib Dem briefing


tells candidates how to handle UKIP voters, including the advice, don't


panic. This illusion Lib Dems don't naturally migrate to UKIP, but Nigel


Farage is scooping up the protest vote now Nick Clegg's party is in


government. In places like Eastleigh, where there is a familiar


incumbent MP, a good local support network, the Lib Dems will fight


hard to hold onto Westminster seats and they might just do it, but when


it comes to the European elections it'll be much harder. There is a


real risk to the party that in euros, we could end up with zero


MEP. I don't think it will happen but I think you will find the Lib


Dems are a bit nervous about making sure we work our socks off over the


next couple of months to make sure it doesn't happen in reality. Much


of that work will fall to town hall activists will stop they are


confident about the future but accept there may be unwelcome


results in the European elections. The general election will be very


difficult for the Liberal Democrats in 2015 compared to 2010, because we


have a record of government to do different. That can be an advantage.


The party will be hard pushed to convince everyone their spelling


government has been a vote winner. They have some hard work to do to


turn around their fortunes. And we're joined now by Lib Dem


Energy Secretary Ed Davey. Welcome to the programme. Let's pick up on


those concerns. The possibility of wipe-out in the European elections,


do you share that fear? We can fourth in the last European


elections, it is worth remembering that, it was not a great result. We


went on to derision well at the general election and entered


government for the first time for 90 years -- went on to do really well


at the general election. I think we could do quite well at the European


elections. Based on a positive agenda. We are going to fight, as


the only party of in. I respect UKIP, partly because they have a


clear position. They want to be out of the European Union, we are the


only party who are saying, we are the party of in. We are -- the


Tories are divided and Labour are remarkably silent. I think people


who believe in Britain's membership of the European Union, and there are


millions of them, if they see an election debate where the Liberal


Democrats are championing our membership, I think we can attract


more voters. The problem is, will they vote? You seem to concede that


if you come forth it is not such a big deal. Are you accepting it is a


real possibility? The polls bear it out. I hope we don't. Of course. It


happened last time so there is clearly a possibility. Last time, we


went on to have a really good general election result. I suppose


we are looking at a slightly different position. You're going to


be defending your record in government, it may be a good or bad


thing. You have lost eight of 15 deposits in by-elections since the


coalition came to power, you could argue you are corrupting Elektra


Lee. -- electorally. We won the Eastleigh by-election despite a UKIP


surge. If you look at our record in government, the ?10,000 tax free


that we have achieved this April has taken 3 million of the lowest paid


out of income tax, delivering a ?700 a year tax cut for them that was in


our manifesto, not the Conservatives' and not supported by


Labour. Liberal Democrats have been part of turning around our economy


so that we have more people in jobs. We have a proud record of defending


a strong economy and a fairer society. It is not coming through in


the polls, you must admit that. You can predict it may change in a


general election but the Europeans are coming first. If you were to


lose, let's say, the majority of your MEPs, morale would sink ever


lower and there would be, do you accept, a sense of panic in the


party, who have got to go out and campaign on those messages? If you


look at the by-election results, I take Eastleigh, the document in that


film saying campaigner should not panic when they come across a UKIP


voter, even though many wars in VB riposte by their anti-Europeanism


and racism, is that a fair statement -- many will be repulsed. UKIP do


try to appeal to those tenses. The more that we were, knock on people


's doors, get our message over, the fact we have been part of turning


the economy around, clearing up labour's mess, the fact we have


helped to make a fairer society with the tax allowance, the increase in


state pension, free school meals, a premium to help disadvantaged


children, we have a strong record where we have delivered in


government. People realise labour cannot be trusted on the economy.


They caused the mess, they are going to the left. I accept that, it will


be a different framework. That statement that has been produced by


the Association of liberal Democrat councillors, would you be happy to


put your name to that, even though many will be riposte by their


anti-Europeanism and racism... It is clear they are an anti-European


party. They have made their vision clear on Europe and in a way I


respect them for having an anti-European position. Because they


are very clear. I think the Tory Party are not clear on their


position on Europe, I think Labour are very silent. In a European


election, where we are debating the benefits of being in Europe, we


think the benefits are about jobs, the 3 million jobs that depend on


our membership. Do you think it is wise to have literature that says


that you give voters are racist? Well, what we say in that leaflet,


although I have not read it, is that clearly UKIP have sailed close to


the wind on this issue, that is why they are rolling back. They are very


defensive on that position, actually, if you listen to them. But


I am really interested in the European election argument, that is


what Nick Clegg will be debating with Nigel Farage, and he will focus


on jobs, jobs, jobs. Listen, I don't know every single UKIP member. You


obviously feel some of them could be racist, that is something you think


comes across in the rhetoric. It is very clear that UKIP campaign on a


very anti-European, anti-immigrant agenda. In the Eastleigh


by-election, they were putting leaflets through doors implying that


29 million Romanians were going to turn up in Britain, and that


frightened people, it is scaremongering. They basically lied


to people, and that is outrageous. What do you say to that? Let's not


beat around the bush, some of them are racist, talking about Bongo


Bongo Land is racist. We are so embarrassed about saying whether


they are racist or not, of course you are allowed to say that people


are if they go around using language like that. The Tories got into a


mess calling them fruitcakes and loons. That was David Cameron, and


he regrets that. He has learned what the Liberal Democrats have not,


which is that you cannot insult voters. To claim that UKIP voters


are racist, you may be repelled when you meet a UKIP voter, that sounds


like a party which has a problem. The allegation is that if you bode


UKIP, you must be racist - that is not how it works. -- vote. I went to


Eastleigh for the by-election, and I was convinced UKIP would win, they


almost did, because they were much more present than the Lib Dems. You


cannot... UKIP make a lot of noise, but it does not necessarily mean a


lot. Vince Cable says he is intensely relaxed about immigration,


are you? We are debating it this weekend, and we need to be tough on


immigration in the way that Labour was not. We want to restore entry


and exit controls so we know people on limited visas have left. That is


a tough position. We are wanting to increase the period they have to be


here before they can claim benefits, but, and this is where I completely


agree, if you look at the benefits of immigration to our economy and


society, they are huge. We have 40,000, 40,000 doctors who are


foreign-born in the NHS. Foreign students coming to the UK put ?13


billion in our economy every year. That is a positive contribution to


our society and our economy. Those parties who deny that, I think, are


denying the facts. Nigel Farage claims that putting economic


society, because there are plenty of statistics, surveys that look at the


broad economic benefits, if not per head, then to the economy and GDP as


a whole, but he said it would almost be worth, and I am paraphrasing,


perhaps having slightly less GDP but the social impact is what really


counts with the voters, that is what people want, more controlled


immigration. I am not against controlling immigration, the Liberal


Democrats want to restore the exit and entry controls that Labour got


rid of. But I disagree with Mr Farage very strongly on the idea


that immigration has a net benefit to our society. I think having other


cultures here add something to the richness and diversity of British


life. I will tell you what, the 1.4 million UK citizens working in other


EU countries, and a lot of people living in other countries, would not


welcome his approach. The net migration figure that the


Conservatives wanted to bring down to tens of thousands by 2015, is it


achievable? Well, it looks pretty tough. Almost impossible. One of the


reasons we were advising against that approach was, for example, in


the cap it includes student numbers, and one of the things that we are


debating to be party policy at the next election is, if there is going


to be a cap, that student numbers should be taken out of that cap.


Students come and go, it seems rather odd, and that is one of the


reasons why we are not going to hit the target. Would you have any


target for net migration? We think there is a case for it, and we are


going beyond having a target. What we are saying in our immigration


policy debate this weekend is that there should be an annual debate, an


annual debate in Parliament about the level of immigration, so much


more transparency... By setting a level? One of the reasons why I


think immigration has become this rather toxic issue in British


politics is not simply UKIP, although it is part of the problem.


The other reason is that people have lost trust in politicians.


Politicians haven't taken on the debate, so by having an annual


debate in Parliament, we think we could engage in the issues, the


positive side of immigration which is often not heard stay with us.


Ali versus Frazier, David versus Goliath, Frost versus Nixon, Luke


Skywalker versus Darth Vader. A whole gamut there! It might not be


up there with the Rumble in the jungle, but Westminster has been


getting very excited at the prospect of Nick Clegg and Nigel Farage going


head-to-head over Britain's future in the EU. Their television debate


will be on BBC Two from 7pm on Wednesday the 2nd of April, but it


in your diaries! And it will be hosted by David Dimbleby. They have


been warming up for the bout this week, trading blows over how hard


the other man works. UKIP leaders don't turn up to vote


in the European Parliament most of the time. Nigel Farage hasn't tabled


a single amendment, not a single amendment to the flow of legislation


passing through the European Parliament since July 2009. They


abstained, extraordinarily, for a party that claims to be in favour of


wider and more open trade, they abstained on a vote on the EU-US


trade agreement that is being thrashed out right now, which is


worth up to ?10 billion a year to the British economy in the future.


Since 2009, I have taken part in 45% of votes in the European Parliament.


They have all taken place in Strasbourg, so by combining getting


to Strasbourg and running a major national political party, not an


easy thing. Mr Clegg, who lives in London, has only taken part in 22%


of the votes in the House of Commons. And we are joined now by


Suzanne Evans from UKIP and Cabinet minister Ed Davey is still with us.


Just before we get onto the debate, Suzanne Evans, I want to put to use


some of the points made by Ed Davey. First of all, about that pamphlet,


lab leaflet about being proposed by anti-Europeanism and racism, what do


you say to that? I am really shocked at what I have heard. It has got the


Darren Sammy ring about it, don't panic. Let me tell you something


else, we have got you on the run. Your membership has fallen by


500,000... It is increasing. We have got the Lib Dems on the run. Any


time that anyone attacks UKIP for being racist, they attacked the


voters who are coming to UKIP in droves. It is not racist to talk


about immigration, it is not racist to want to have control of our


borders. But is it scaremongering to talk about the figures that Nigel


Farage and UKIP talked about in terms of the numbers of Romanians


and Bulgarians? Absolutely not, because Nigel Farage has been


repeatedly misquoted on this. It was your leaflet. The leaflet said that


they could come to the UK, that is practical. We never said they would.


The whole of Romania comes to the UK, come on! What about immigration


in general? Have you been scaremongering on immigration as a


topic you might I don't think we have, and the other parties have


refused to tackle the issue. For years, the Labour Party shuts down


any discussion of immigration by calling it racist. The Conservative


Party did not have the guts to talk about it, which is one of the main


concern is that voters have. The fact is that the Liberal party, the


Labour Party, the Conservative Party all have the same rhetoric on


immigration, and on the EU. They are all out to get us, scraping the


barrel. Look at Robert Halfon MP taking terrible smears. We are not


going to stand for that, and on March the 29th we will be in his


constituency having an action day, and we will be saying, if you love


Britain and if you love are low, vote UKIP. It is interesting that


most of the polls have been talking about immigration, espousing the


benefits of immigration and immigrant labour, and that future


growth to some extent is being linked with still having a fairly


open policy and welcoming foreign labour. UKIP is not


anti-immigration. UKIP is very much pro-immigration on a points based


system, such as we have in Australia, where we can welcome


people into the UK who wants to contribute, and again it is a way in


which we have been grossly misrepresented. Getting onto the


debate, Nigel Farage has said he had no choice but to accept Nick


Clegg's offer, was there a moment of doubt in his mind? No! More chance


of finding a snowflake on the sundown him turning down the


opportunity, as he said. Nick Clegg is putting himself into the lion's


den, the question is, will he get out alive? They are both good


orators, but if I am hearing the sort of things Ed Davey is talking


about, if Nick Clegg repeats that, Nigel Farage will have no problem


knocking him down. Does it mean accepting a debate with Nick Clegg,


that Nigel Farage has accepted he will not be part of a prime


ministerial debate? I don't think so, and we have had the Ofcom


ruling... He is still trying? He would still very much like to be in


that debate. But he has accepted it will not happen, so this is is best


chance at a debate with a party leader? I think the public will


rightly question in 2015, if Nigel Farage is not part of the national


debates with the other two party leaders, the voters will not stand


for it. The Lib Dems last night did appallingly badly in the Nottingham


by-election, bus pass Elvis did better! UKIP is the third party of


Britain now, we should be in that debate. Simon Hughes has said it


will be a tough gig, no doubt that Nick Clegg is an expert on all


things European. Is it a high rick strategy for him? I don't think so,


we are proud to be the party of income they are happy to be out, so


it is good for the electorate that they have clear choice. I think Nick


Clegg will talk about the jobs we would lose if we pulled out of


Europe, and there will be a lot of talk about the crime is you. Because


of our co-operation with Europol, because of the European arrest


warrant, serious criminals, drug traffickers, terrorists, murderers,


rapists, human traffickers, are caught. By pulling out of Europe, as


UKIP wants to do, our streets in Britain would be less safe and


secure, that is a dangerous strategy. It is interesting you


should mention human trafficking, because I was at a meeting talking


about this last night, and the open borders that we have within the EU


make it much, much easier for women in particular to be sold into


slavery in this country, and that disgusts me. We need to take control


of our borders, not just to stop criminals coming in, but to protect


women. But do you agree that you have to cooperate with other


countries? There are other ways of cooperating over crime. How do you


think the debate will go? It is really interesting, because one of


the things about having Nick Clegg in the leadership debate was that


everybody was falling over themselves to agree with him, and


that in a way, I think, we went into the last election thinking all of


the parties were much more similar than they were, so I am looking


forward to this, because it actually gives both of them... They are both


poised to be purely oppositional, and I think they will make a better


account of themselves. Do you agree? Is it a win-win for both? I think


Nick Clegg thinks is Thursday morning phone-ins on LBC have


prepared him for this. Have they not? They are not prepared him for


Nigel Farage. These politics is on a different wavelength to the three


Westminster parties. The kinds of lines of argument that UKIP has not


what Westminster leaders are used to dealing with, and that is partly


why... I think you are right, because people have not put Nigel


Farage and UKIP on the spot. Going back to the EU immigration, the fact


is there are 1.4 million UK citizens working in other EU countries,


almost as many as working in the UK. There are 1 million British citizens


living in Spain. I am not suggesting that they would all have to come


back, of course not, but their rights and the support they get


would be reduced if we pulled out of the EU. I think that is the sort of


fact we need to get on the table. We have got a Westminster compact where


everybody agrees on immigration for certain reasons, because they bring


in this much GDP, they take out benefits, because blah, blah...


Doctors! It is all money on the table, money brought in, and UKIP,


like many on the left, think about things differently. On the left, we


would say that people are not just units of sale, let's talk about what


people bring in as people, and their essential virtues as people. It


might surprise you, but that is UKIP policy as well, that is not the


prerogative of the left, that is our view that you have just exposed.


What do you say to Michael Heseltine, who says it is a


misjudgement of Nick Clegg to enter into this, to equate the leadership


of a party of government with a protest group? We are not a protest


group, that is quite clear, we are consistently polling a third,


gaining members rapidly. We have gone far beyond a protest group now,


to the point where everyone is saying if we come second in the


European elections, we will have failed, which is quite ridiculous.


Just to remind you the BBC is hosting the TV debate between Nick


Clegg and Nigel Farage on BBC Two from 7:00pm on Wednesday second


April. It's been described by one


commentator as the most "stupid, intellectually bankrupt and vacuous


address of the year". Immigration Minister James Brokenshire's speech


yesterday has certainly set the cat amongst the pigeons, and forced a


number of politicians to prepare themselves for journalist's tricky


questions about who they employ. Mr Brokenshire argued that


immigration favours the metropolitan elite, not ordinary British


citizens, and he set his sights on the Liberal Democrat Business


Secretary, Vince Cable, claiming his views on migration are plain wrong.


Naturally Mr Cable hasn't been shy to respond. Here's a flavour of what


they've both had to say. For too long, the benefits of immigration


went to employers who wanted an easy supply of cheap labour, or to the


wealthy metropolitan elite who wanted cheap tradesmen and


services, but not to the ordinary hard-working people of this country.


I think this stuff about metropolitan elite is way off the


mark. Most people in this country benefit from services like the NHS,


public transport, catering, in which migrant workers are. This is not


just the metropolitan issue. And Simon Walker of the business


lobby group, the Institute of Drectors, joins us now. Welcome to


the programme. Are you a of the metropolitan elite that James broken


-- he referred to. Perhaps I am, I suddenly lived in west London. The


fact is one in seven businesses have been set up why migrants who have


come here to create businesses around the country. Nigel Farage


acknowledges that economic growth will fall if you cut immigration.


Our members say immigrants bring skills and bring motivation to this


country which is very necessary. What was your response to that


speech? We said it was feeble and pathetic. We thought it was unwise


of politicians to stoke up feelings about this. It is time people start


telling the truth in the dog and duck, which is that immigrants bring


benefits to this community. They take fewer benefits away from it in


terms of benefits provided by the state. They are net contributors to


the British economy. For those who are trying to get low skilled,


low-paid jobs, there is very strong anecdotal evidence to say that they


are up against fierce competition from relatively cheap foreign


labour. I don't know if that really is the problem. I think a big part


of the problem is benefits system, which makes it a rational choice not


to work. Because people would be facing a 90% marginal tax rate if


they were to go into work, instead of drawing benefits. It is a fault


in the benefit system in this country. I really dispute that. The


fact is most people in poverty have at least one working member in their


household and many people have two working people in their house. He is


talking about people on the dole. When we talk about people on low


wages with housing problems who reputedly object the most


immigration, their real problem is they have housing problems and


weight problems. Their wages don't cover their housing, they can't get


a decent house, UKIP say it is because of immigrants. -- and wage


problems. You have white ring -- you have right-wing parties


presenting immigration of as the problem when it is not the real


problem. I am in favour of immigration, one of the best things


about Britain is that we are so open-minded in the fact that we take


in the world, and that London is a world capital. But immigration is a


net positive, usually the benefits go to the rich and the disadvantages


tend to go towards those who are competing with immigrants for work.


I think he was making a good point in a bad way. I think he is right in


saying there is a rich-poor access. If you look at people who support


immigration, it is easy for us to say because none of us are ready


competing with immigrants for jobs. But those who are looking for work,


you can see why it is tougher. There is really good data on this. In the


main, people despised by migrant workers are other migrants. The main


problem created is from the house country whence the migrants came. --


host country. We should be asking why they are being blamed. Should we


have no immigration controls? I don't think society is ready for


that. Would business like to have an even more open... We would like to


have an even more open system am absolutely. We would like more


access to more people of different bright ease of skills and different


motivation. Would we prefer -- different varieties. Our businesses


would thrive more if we were free about it. The Liberal Democrats are


the party for business? Many issues make up the political mix and


immigration is not the only one. Frequently, our members complained


about young South Africans, New Zealanders, Canadians, Americans who


come in here and can't stay on, they lose their skills and talents after


two years because of an immigration policy that throws them out and that


is mad. The pledge that was made, that we touched on with Ed Davey,


but was undeliverable from the start, the idea of getting net


migration to tens of thousands? I think it was something Cameron


blurted out thinking it sounded good in his speech. Who commits to a


target like that? When you have no control over a large proportion of


it. Of course. By all means, target the incoming people but you can't


really decide who -- control who decides to emigrate. It suggested


they were not race is about immigration if that is the quality


of their place -- not really serious about immigration. If that was the


quality of their pledge. If there was not immigration we would have to


fix problems in the labour force but right now we can afford to let the


poor stay on the dole because we have a nonstop supply of immigrants.


There are lot of problems around including housing and a lack of


skills but to blame them on immigration is a mistake, and that


is what are being irresponsible in doing.


Now, over in Dublin there's a major political drama unfolding. The


European People's Party - the centre right political group in the


European Parliament - is meeting to choose their candidate for the


Presidency of the European Commission. David Cameron won't be


there. The Tories quit the EPP group back in 2009. But some of the


biggest names in European politics, such as German chancellor Angela


Merkel, are in Ireland. As the candidates jostle for position, who


is in pole position to succeed Jose Manuel Barroso? We're joined now by


Alex Donohue of Ladbrokes to give us the latest odds. The Luxembourg


candidate leads the way, the German candidate is second, the Belgian


representative is at 5-1 and the French candidate, 8-1. Looking at


that, Juncker has the backing of Angela Merkel and her Christian


Democrat party, it is his to lose? Absolutely, 85% of bets have been


for him. We haven't taken a single bet on the two outsiders, we think


Juncker might be raising a point of the black stuff to celebrate in


Dublin. Two candidates are on the EPP and the other two candidates are


on the left. Do you think Juncker is going to take it? I hope so, use one


of my favourite Europeans. He gave the best quote about how the EU


operates saying we do things, it is competitive, nobody understands, so


we keep going. He is actually quite witty. That's OK, then!


And for the latest developments in Dublin, we're joined by Diarmaid


Fleming. Welcome to the programme. There is no British politician in


Dublin, what are they missing out on? What is the atmosphere like?


There are about 2000 delegates from parties actively in the EPP, and


also observers, notably from Ukraine and a whole host of journalists and


officials. The building behind me looks like a tilted barrel, there


might be a few tilted barrels after the celebrations tonight. It is a


huge little festival, if you like, but for those who agree with each


other. There is not going to be any particular debate. It is a sensitive


matter in a certain way. Ireland was in love with the EU in times gone


past when the money flowed one-way come about since the economic crash


and austerity, this is fairly sensitive to rain domestically. In a


way it is convenient for Ender Kelly, the Irish Prime Minister,


that the agenda has been dominated largely by Ukraine rather than


economic matters. Because otherwise it might not have gone down so well


in Ireland? Are people gripped? I would say people are underwhelmed by


the overwhelming number of politicians that have arrived here.


People are polite and there is a feeling that this is good for


commerce and trade, that you have similar people visiting and such a


big event can be staged. If you remember last December, when Ireland


exited the EU bailout, Jose Mourinho Barroso wanted to come to Ireland.


The government asked him not to come -- Jose-Maria well Barroso wanted to


come to the government here privately at the


conference itself, they are backslapping each other and they are


being congratulated by all of their European counterparts. In terms of


the public appetite here, people are pretty nonplussed. Thank you very


much. It is a big decision for European politics, they may not be


gripped in Ireland because of what is happening. David Cameron is on


the margins. Let's revisit that decision to pull out of the EPP, the


sort of centre-right grouping. He was wrong? He did that because Liam


Fox proposed it in the leadership bid. He stole that pledge from Fox


without really thinking. I think most which is people -- like most


British people, David Cameron could not care about what group he is in.


I think Cameron underestimated how much problems it would cause with


Germany, Angela Merkel has never forgiven him. If he had his time


again, you probably wouldn't do it, simply because it annoyed Angela


Merkel. It is so it's a terrible the average British voter, the way the


European Parliament works -- it is so Lisa Esat Eric


-- it is so esoteric. Do you think it would help him in terms of coming


back to his party, saying I am able to negotiate with the most important


person, Angela Merkel? Exactly. I think this is a brilliant example of


why playing to the gallery, saying we are conservatives and can do what


we want, we don't listen to Europe, it kicks a problem further down the


line which then really comes back to you. This is going to haunt him for


ages, that he hasn't got a seat at the table. Does it matter, who wins


this contest? Of course it matters to Europe. We have a massive problem


in Europe between a redistribution of money since the crash upwards.


Whether the guys on the left or the right... I think the European


Parliament is one of the most irrelevant constitutions in the


whole continent. I would be more worried about who wins the Swedish


election than this one. Now - Sir Tom Jones has dubbed him


"the singing politician" - 19-year-old Jermain Jackman has got


through the blind auditions and last week's battle round on the BBC One


talent show The Voice. But he's also a Labour Party activist who says he


wants to be Prime Minister. Here he is in full voice on the show.


# I am not going to leave you. # There is no way I will!


What is your name? Jermain Jackman. Do you sing a lot? In church, at


venues, for charities, I volunteer, I am into politics as well. Politics


as well? I am the youth coordinator for Hackney and the Labour Party.


UIs singing politician? -- you are a singing politician? There is a


headline that said I would be the first singing black run minister.


Grand ambitions! Well, I am just aiming high, trying to inspire the


young people that we have in this country. What was it like being on


the show? It was so surreal to have those four coaches to tell me, when


he wanted me on his team, it was out of this world. Being recognised on


the street, oh, my goodness! You will be recognised a lot more than I


ever and, quite rightly! So do you want to be a singer, then? Music and


politics are my passions, but music is my first love, and politics comes


on the side, inspiring young people, that is what I aim to do with my


music. What are the main platforms you would like to promote


politically? My policies, in a sense? Just motivation, getting


young people engaged in politics, making them believe that these goals


are achievable. Have you met David Cameron? Yes, I got a Spirit of


London award, and I was at Ten Downing Street, a big reception with


a couple of celebrities, politicians, I was there with my


mum, and David Cameron was saying hello to everyone. I said to him, I


guess I will take your job, then. I don't know if you heard me or not!


He smirked, so I guess he must have heard. Encouraging that simply wants


to be the first black Prime Minister. Anyone who wants to be


Prime Minister is a great thing! We need the talent in Westminster!


Watching at home, most of your viewers could probably do it better


than those guys. From a singing point of view, great, but


interesting that the political dimensions has come through. It is


so heartening to see someone on The Voice who cares about politics as


well, because I really love those talent shows, but they are often


quite kind of narrow, I need to succeed, I need to succeed for me,


and I think you are so great. Thank you very much. He looked surprised


when you mentioned politics. Like I said, it was so surreal to be in


front of a legend, Tom Jones, everybody calls me a grandad because


I take music from the 1960s and 70s. What are the issues that you and


your friends are concerned about growing up, I think young people in


this country are interested in politics. They see the political


issues, about connecting political issues with political education, and


getting that political education into schools, getting their mind


going about responsibilities and what it means to vote, just getting


them engaged. Are they interested in party politics? We are hugely


interested in politics, but when it comes to choosing a winner, you see


something in the Labour Party that you think is worth giving up your


time for. You don't get many young people into the Lib Dems, the


Tories, any political party. So I think Labour needs you more than the


other way round! Do politicians do enough or do much for young people?


I think they need to do much more, they need to talk to us. At the


moment, it feels like Westminster and party politics is up there, and


young people are there, we have seen DMA being cut, youth clubs being


shut, and young people are being pushed into a corner and ignored. --


EMA. It is about shining a light on young people, motivating them to


vote, make their voices heard. Are you unusual among your friends as


wanting to get actively involved in politics? I don't think so. I think


I am just one of those leaders. If you look at Martin Luther King, was


he unusual? He just wanted to make a change, stand for a change. I just


feel like I will be a face of change. Looking ahead to the


Scottish referendum, they are lowering the voting age, do you


think that could be a real possibility? I don't see why not. We


talk all the time about the problems of apathy and disengagement, and it


is a serious problem in Westminster. If young people don't vote... But


will they vote? You can't not offer a vote to younger people on the


basis that they might not use it. If you are worried about them using it,


make it as broad as possible. Do you agree? I do agree. I think there is


a case for it. Alex Salmond has found that young people are against


independence now, which is a surprise when! We were discussing


the revelations regarding the Stephen Lawrence case, Doreen


Lawrence talking about the case that there is no trust between police and


communities or some black and ethnic minority communities. How do you


feel as a young black man living in London? There needs to be a level of


trust with young people, or people in general with the police, and I


think that trust and confidence is slowly deteriorating. You think it


is deteriorating recently? It fluctuates, it fluctuates, and I


used to campaign for police communications. I used to get police


officers and young people to meet at the Town Hall, just to communicate


and get along with each other, have that common ground and start to


respect one another. But you think it is going downhill now? If you see


the Stephen Lawrence verdict yesterday, it is like, how are we


going to trust the police? That is why people are reluctant to report


things to the police. It is sickening to think that there is


still corruption in the Met Police, just a small minority of corrupt


police officers that are ruining the great work that the Metropolitan


Police do. It is interesting that you felt there was a relationship,


that things had got better in the past, and these events and


revelations of the very thing that can dent and damage that. It is


important that we get these out of the way and build towards the


future. I would do that where we can get police officers and young people


on the same ground, on the same playing ground, Common ground, where


they can communicate and get to know one another, and it is not a thing


were police are just looking at young people. I get that a lot, when


it is raining and I have my hood up. They look at me, there is no need


for it. It goes deeper than that, it goes in to stop and search, things


like that. Weiss what do they call them, bully bands? I grew up knowing


that is what they call them. Have you been stopped and searched? Loads


of friends have been stopped and searched. It's positive if it gets


knives and guns off the road, but it can damage the trust that young


people have. And there is a whole section that goes really deep. There


have been reports that Number Ten are not quite so keen on the idea.


She is making a plausible case for herself. It is really important,


because it is not just the inconvenience of being stopped and


searched, but the more likely you are to be stopped, the more likely


you are to be convicted, and it means the criminal justice system is


raked in a racist direction. It is important to do better than this,


and if anyone can, it might be Theresa May. She is a steely lady.


We on Daily Politics like a bit of show business ourselves, so we


thought we would have our own version of The Voice, the political


voice, that is. We are going to bring up a quote or policy from a


party, and all you have to do is guess which one said it. Easy! So


here is the first one. Which party said they will protect your jobs and


benefits? Shout out if you know the answer! Recently, it has to be


recently. Who said that recently? Anybody? UKIP, well done. It was not


as hard as you thought. He is a swot! He is, though. Don't worry,


you are putting in your justification first. Which party


warned that those who don't have the skills they need for a job will have


to take up training alongside their job search or lose their benefits?


It is probably Labour, isn't it? Well done, it is. It gets easier,


who wants to scrap national insurance contributions for under 21


is to make it easier for firms to take on younger workers? Jermain?


Let me say Lib Dems. No, conservatives! And finally, name the


party that wants to increase exit checks to improve border controls.


That was just in the programme. I don't have a clue! That was the Lib


Dems. Well done! Thank you for having me on the show, thank you. If


you feel you have missed out on the big political stories, it is our job


to bring the important and not so important to you, Adam Fleming with


the week in 60 seconds. Who knew World War III would start


with some Slavic chaps eyeballing each other moodily? The crisis in


Ukraine rumbled on as Russia effectively occupied the Crimea.


World leaders talked about it! Immigrants have taken our jobs, no,


they haven't. Or maybe they have a little bit. According to a report


that was repressed by the government back row until it wasn't. He has


been banging on about it for ages, but Eric Pickles was forced on this


very programme to confront his record on reintroducing weekly


rubbish collections. 70% of bins are still collected fortnightly. We have


only been in office a little while... And flipping MPs and peers


have been doing this again. Is that Dave? I'm just calling to


say that picture of you on the phone to Barack Obama is being mercilessly


spoofed online, bye! So what was supposed to be a very


serious phone call about Ukraine rather got ripped to pieces and


Twitter, the perils of Twitter. I think it is the perils of posting a


photograph of yourself on Twitter, it is just vanity. He paid the price


for his own ridiculous vanity. Do you agree? Politicians now, look,


George Osborne with his hot dog, it can backfire on you. Gubler the only


ones we remember are the ones with 1000 comments. They think they will


bypass the journalists but the public are even more scathing! Do


think we should CNN to those pictures? More, it is entertaining!


-- see an end. It leads to a more serious issue, Ukraine. Depending on


how you look at it, Crimea looks as if it has gone. Yes, it is difficult


to see how the referendum will not come up with the same outcome. It


looks as if Putin has correctly calculated that Europe couldn't do


anything and America has not yet got its energy policy sorted. So what


happens? There was a bit of a divide in the EU about how to deal with


it, the Eastern European countries would have liked to have seen a


tougher stance, as would Britain, but not against Angela Merkel. I


don't think anyone was prepared for how anti-European food and is.


Really? Yeah. There was always a sense that he was naturally allied


against them when there was something like Syria, but I think


the sheer hostility came as a slap in the face. Do think it says


something about his power in terms of his economic strength that he is


in the long weakening, or holding on to these former satellite states? I


think Russia is morphing into a sort of big gas company with an arm, and


it is just testing the limits. It wants the support of Crimea, it has


got one in Syria, it probably once one in Egypt, and it is testing to


see how much the West still cares about what it does. Putin has


prodded Europe and America, and with Europe the answer is not think,


America has been a bit more hawkish, sending fighters over. It


is interesting, because all the conversation around Sochi was they


could not afford it, what are they doing? And then suddenly, after


that, this huge show of military strength which shows that Putin, for


him, money is no object, we have everything. That is it for today.


Thank you to all of our guests, particularly do you do for being the


guests of the day. The one o'clock news is starting on BBC One, and


Andrew will be back at 11 o'clock on Sunday morning with the Sunday


Politics. Bye.


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