07/03/2014 Daily Politics


07/03/2014

Jo Coburn with the latest political news and debate from Westminster, including a look ahead to the Liberal Democrat conference, plus The Voice's Jermain Jackman.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Good afternoon and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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The Lib Dems meet to prepare for local and European elections - are

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they in danger of being wiped out in that contest and becoming the fourth

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party in British politics? The big Clegg - Farage bout is on. We'll

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preview what could be the bloodiest debate of the political year.

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The glitterati of centre-right European politics descend on Dublin

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to pick the man they want to take the EU's top job - but David Cameron

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won't be there. We'll tell you what we're missing out on. There is a

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headline that says I will be the first singing black Prime Minister.

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And he's been dubbed "the singing politician" by sir Tom Jones - we

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talk to Jermain Jackman from The Voice.

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All that in the next hour and with us for the whole programme today,

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two journalists who we'd all turn for - the Editor of the Spectator,

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Fraser Nelson and the Guardian's Zoe Williams. Welcome to the programme.

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Let's start with the latest disturbing revelations about the

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Metropolitan Police's investigation into the murder of Stephen Lawrence

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21 years ago now. The Home Secretary has announced a new public inquiry

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after is it was revealed that the Met spied on the Lawrence family in

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an attempt to "smear them" and withheld information from the

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Macpherson inquiry that may have revealed that one of the

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investigating officers was corrupt. In an emotional speech in the House

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of Lords, Stephen's mother, Doreen Lawrence - who is now a Labour Peer

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- thanked Home Secretary Theresa May for setting up the review. I think

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when we embarked on the corruption case, I knew there was always

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something and it was through difficult to convince other people

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around me, especially other police officers. And even at times, the

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Home Secretary, that I believed there was corruption at the start of

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Stephen's case. It has taken over a year for that, but it has taken

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nearly 21 years since Stephen has been killed. The fact that he is our

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family... -- our family had to go through all this, and still there is

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more to come out. An emotional Doreen Lawrence. Which of these

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dreadful revelations is the most shocking? It is really hard to save

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or that she is such a moving speaker. It is impossible to watch

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her without feeling what she is feeling. The police have never

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covered themselves in glory with this. It would have been bad enough

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if we were dealing with incompetence. The thing is that

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since the MacPherson import, there have been so many revelations

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surrounding that -- the Macpherson report. The stuff around the

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infiltration of groups, the stuff around going after law-abiding

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citizens to no obvious purpose. As she said, this isn't that much of a

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surprise. Were you that shocked? I actually was that shocked, to find

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out the police had been putting spy not only in their camp but that this

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unit was involved in more cases that may result in miscarriages of

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justice, that was the most shocking thing, the idea that we could have

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criminal cases where there could be a miscarriage of justice because the

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police were hiding the facts of what their spies were up to. They have

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had spies imperfectly legitimate environmental groups, and our kick

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groups that were just politically experimenting, and we have known

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about that for a couple of years. I think in a way, the shock has been

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that we haven't taken seriously the infiltration generally. Because it

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has never been OK for the police to act like that. I would disagree, I

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think in some circumstances it is necessary for the police to put

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spies in certain camps. Environmental camps? Especially!

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What is shocking is that they were keeping the secret internally. I

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think if you have a culture of being allowed to use spies wherever you

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like without discretion, of course you will end up covering it up. I am

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not at all surprised about the cover-ups. Is that really the part

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that is going to injure, as far as the Met's reputation is concerned?

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That they withheld information and blocked the Macpherson inquiry, and

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it is going to keep tripping out until it is all out there? --

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dripping out. It is difficult to tell between deliberate secrecy and

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incompetence with the police. When you listen to stories about spies

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coming back in, having been embedded for years with groups, they would

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come back in and managers wouldn't even know who they were. There is an

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argument about whether some is justifiable and some is not, and the

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STS has now been disbanded -- the SDS has been disbanded. What will a

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public inquiry do, is it the right thing? I think it is, this has been

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going on for years. What else were the SDS involved in, where were the

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miscarriages of justice? This needs to be investigated to the end, until

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we know which other cases could have been corrupted or compromised. One

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of the other things Doreen Lawrence said is that you still can't trust

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them, trust and confidence in the Met is going to go right down. She

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feels the religion chip has not changed, do you think it is true --

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the relationship. How big a problem is it, the constant denting public

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trust, Hillsborough, plebgate, this... There is still a huge

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problem with racism in the police. If you look at what the Duggan

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family say about the experience of being a young black man who hasn't

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done anything... On his way to buy a gun. Distinct from Mark Duggan, in

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the life that you live, the number of times you are harassed and

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hassled by the police... I didn't phrase it very well. But there is

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still a huge problem of racism that comes up again and again and nothing

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will go away until that goes away. Now - the Lib Dems meet in York this

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afternoon for their Spring Conference where their minds will be

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focussed on May's local and European elections. The party president, Tim

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Farron, has warned that the party could be wiped out in those

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elections. There's probably a bit of expectation management there, but

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with ministers in Government they are no longer attracting the protest

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vote. So what's the future for a party that's now regularly coming

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fourth in the polls behind UKIP. Here's Alex Forsyth.

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I declare that David is duly elected member of Parliament for the

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Eastleigh constituency. It is 1994 and in the background, a freshfaced

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Nigel Farage in UKIP's first-ever attempt to win a Parliamentary seat.

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This was an Eastleigh by-election, the Lib Dems won, UKIP polled

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pulley. Fast forward to last year, another by-election in Eastleigh,

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again the Lib Dems won but this time their vote plummeted and UKIP

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finished a close second. This Lib Dem stronghold might not seem the

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natural place for a UKIP charge, but in a railway town with industrial

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roots, they appeal to the common man. They are saying what people

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want, are the people are not doing it. They are good, I can't think of

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the guys name but he is a really nice guy. UKIP claim they are on

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track for some good results while Lib Dems support is heading for the

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buffers. Click finish the Liberal Democrat -- Nick Clegg finished the

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Liberal Democrats off when he stood in the Rose Garden. Nobody trust

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them. If you vote Liberal Democrat, you made get Labour or Conservative.

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Edge you may get. UKIP's anti-immigration message is popular.

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Does the distant relative of Guy Fawkes share his ancestor's

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ambitions for Parliament? I would rather achieve our goal peacefully

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rather than exploding onto the scene! This leaked Lib Dem briefing

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tells candidates how to handle UKIP voters, including the advice, don't

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panic. This illusion Lib Dems don't naturally migrate to UKIP, but Nigel

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Farage is scooping up the protest vote now Nick Clegg's party is in

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government. In places like Eastleigh, where there is a familiar

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incumbent MP, a good local support network, the Lib Dems will fight

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hard to hold onto Westminster seats and they might just do it, but when

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it comes to the European elections it'll be much harder. There is a

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real risk to the party that in euros, we could end up with zero

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MEP. I don't think it will happen but I think you will find the Lib

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Dems are a bit nervous about making sure we work our socks off over the

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next couple of months to make sure it doesn't happen in reality. Much

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of that work will fall to town hall activists will stop they are

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confident about the future but accept there may be unwelcome

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results in the European elections. The general election will be very

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difficult for the Liberal Democrats in 2015 compared to 2010, because we

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have a record of government to do different. That can be an advantage.

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The party will be hard pushed to convince everyone their spelling

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government has been a vote winner. They have some hard work to do to

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turn around their fortunes. And we're joined now by Lib Dem

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Energy Secretary Ed Davey. Welcome to the programme. Let's pick up on

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those concerns. The possibility of wipe-out in the European elections,

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do you share that fear? We can fourth in the last European

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elections, it is worth remembering that, it was not a great result. We

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went on to derision well at the general election and entered

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government for the first time for 90 years -- went on to do really well

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at the general election. I think we could do quite well at the European

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elections. Based on a positive agenda. We are going to fight, as

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the only party of in. I respect UKIP, partly because they have a

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clear position. They want to be out of the European Union, we are the

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only party who are saying, we are the party of in. We are -- the

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Tories are divided and Labour are remarkably silent. I think people

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who believe in Britain's membership of the European Union, and there are

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millions of them, if they see an election debate where the Liberal

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Democrats are championing our membership, I think we can attract

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more voters. The problem is, will they vote? You seem to concede that

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if you come forth it is not such a big deal. Are you accepting it is a

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real possibility? The polls bear it out. I hope we don't. Of course. It

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happened last time so there is clearly a possibility. Last time, we

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went on to have a really good general election result. I suppose

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we are looking at a slightly different position. You're going to

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be defending your record in government, it may be a good or bad

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thing. You have lost eight of 15 deposits in by-elections since the

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coalition came to power, you could argue you are corrupting Elektra

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Lee. -- electorally. We won the Eastleigh by-election despite a UKIP

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surge. If you look at our record in government, the ?10,000 tax free

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that we have achieved this April has taken 3 million of the lowest paid

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out of income tax, delivering a ?700 a year tax cut for them that was in

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our manifesto, not the Conservatives' and not supported by

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Labour. Liberal Democrats have been part of turning around our economy

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so that we have more people in jobs. We have a proud record of defending

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a strong economy and a fairer society. It is not coming through in

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the polls, you must admit that. You can predict it may change in a

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general election but the Europeans are coming first. If you were to

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lose, let's say, the majority of your MEPs, morale would sink ever

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lower and there would be, do you accept, a sense of panic in the

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party, who have got to go out and campaign on those messages? If you

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look at the by-election results, I take Eastleigh, the document in that

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film saying campaigner should not panic when they come across a UKIP

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voter, even though many wars in VB riposte by their anti-Europeanism

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and racism, is that a fair statement -- many will be repulsed. UKIP do

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try to appeal to those tenses. The more that we were, knock on people

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's doors, get our message over, the fact we have been part of turning

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the economy around, clearing up labour's mess, the fact we have

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helped to make a fairer society with the tax allowance, the increase in

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state pension, free school meals, a premium to help disadvantaged

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children, we have a strong record where we have delivered in

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government. People realise labour cannot be trusted on the economy.

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They caused the mess, they are going to the left. I accept that, it will

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be a different framework. That statement that has been produced by

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the Association of liberal Democrat councillors, would you be happy to

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put your name to that, even though many will be riposte by their

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anti-Europeanism and racism... It is clear they are an anti-European

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party. They have made their vision clear on Europe and in a way I

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respect them for having an anti-European position. Because they

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are very clear. I think the Tory Party are not clear on their

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position on Europe, I think Labour are very silent. In a European

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election, where we are debating the benefits of being in Europe, we

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think the benefits are about jobs, the 3 million jobs that depend on

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our membership. Do you think it is wise to have literature that says

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that you give voters are racist? Well, what we say in that leaflet,

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although I have not read it, is that clearly UKIP have sailed close to

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the wind on this issue, that is why they are rolling back. They are very

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defensive on that position, actually, if you listen to them. But

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I am really interested in the European election argument, that is

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what Nick Clegg will be debating with Nigel Farage, and he will focus

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on jobs, jobs, jobs. Listen, I don't know every single UKIP member. You

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obviously feel some of them could be racist, that is something you think

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comes across in the rhetoric. It is very clear that UKIP campaign on a

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very anti-European, anti-immigrant agenda. In the Eastleigh

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by-election, they were putting leaflets through doors implying that

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29 million Romanians were going to turn up in Britain, and that

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frightened people, it is scaremongering. They basically lied

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to people, and that is outrageous. What do you say to that? Let's not

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beat around the bush, some of them are racist, talking about Bongo

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Bongo Land is racist. We are so embarrassed about saying whether

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they are racist or not, of course you are allowed to say that people

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are if they go around using language like that. The Tories got into a

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mess calling them fruitcakes and loons. That was David Cameron, and

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he regrets that. He has learned what the Liberal Democrats have not,

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which is that you cannot insult voters. To claim that UKIP voters

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are racist, you may be repelled when you meet a UKIP voter, that sounds

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like a party which has a problem. The allegation is that if you bode

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UKIP, you must be racist - that is not how it works. -- vote. I went to

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Eastleigh for the by-election, and I was convinced UKIP would win, they

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almost did, because they were much more present than the Lib Dems. You

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cannot... UKIP make a lot of noise, but it does not necessarily mean a

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lot. Vince Cable says he is intensely relaxed about immigration,

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are you? We are debating it this weekend, and we need to be tough on

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immigration in the way that Labour was not. We want to restore entry

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and exit controls so we know people on limited visas have left. That is

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a tough position. We are wanting to increase the period they have to be

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here before they can claim benefits, but, and this is where I completely

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agree, if you look at the benefits of immigration to our economy and

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society, they are huge. We have 40,000, 40,000 doctors who are

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foreign-born in the NHS. Foreign students coming to the UK put ?13

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billion in our economy every year. That is a positive contribution to

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our society and our economy. Those parties who deny that, I think, are

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denying the facts. Nigel Farage claims that putting economic

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society, because there are plenty of statistics, surveys that look at the

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broad economic benefits, if not per head, then to the economy and GDP as

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a whole, but he said it would almost be worth, and I am paraphrasing,

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perhaps having slightly less GDP but the social impact is what really

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counts with the voters, that is what people want, more controlled

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immigration. I am not against controlling immigration, the Liberal

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Democrats want to restore the exit and entry controls that Labour got

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rid of. But I disagree with Mr Farage very strongly on the idea

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that immigration has a net benefit to our society. I think having other

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cultures here add something to the richness and diversity of British

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life. I will tell you what, the 1.4 million UK citizens working in other

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EU countries, and a lot of people living in other countries, would not

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welcome his approach. The net migration figure that the

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Conservatives wanted to bring down to tens of thousands by 2015, is it

:19:17.:19:21.

achievable? Well, it looks pretty tough. Almost impossible. One of the

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reasons we were advising against that approach was, for example, in

:19:27.:19:31.

the cap it includes student numbers, and one of the things that we are

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debating to be party policy at the next election is, if there is going

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to be a cap, that student numbers should be taken out of that cap.

:19:39.:19:43.

Students come and go, it seems rather odd, and that is one of the

:19:44.:19:46.

reasons why we are not going to hit the target. Would you have any

:19:47.:19:50.

target for net migration? We think there is a case for it, and we are

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going beyond having a target. What we are saying in our immigration

:19:57.:19:59.

policy debate this weekend is that there should be an annual debate, an

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annual debate in Parliament about the level of immigration, so much

:20:04.:20:08.

more transparency... By setting a level? One of the reasons why I

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think immigration has become this rather toxic issue in British

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politics is not simply UKIP, although it is part of the problem.

:20:16.:20:20.

The other reason is that people have lost trust in politicians.

:20:21.:20:23.

Politicians haven't taken on the debate, so by having an annual

:20:24.:20:27.

debate in Parliament, we think we could engage in the issues, the

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positive side of immigration which is often not heard stay with us.

:20:31.:20:34.

Ali versus Frazier, David versus Goliath, Frost versus Nixon, Luke

:20:35.:20:39.

Skywalker versus Darth Vader. A whole gamut there! It might not be

:20:40.:20:42.

up there with the Rumble in the jungle, but Westminster has been

:20:43.:20:47.

getting very excited at the prospect of Nick Clegg and Nigel Farage going

:20:48.:20:51.

head-to-head over Britain's future in the EU. Their television debate

:20:52.:20:55.

will be on BBC Two from 7pm on Wednesday the 2nd of April, but it

:20:56.:20:59.

in your diaries! And it will be hosted by David Dimbleby. They have

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been warming up for the bout this week, trading blows over how hard

:21:04.:21:08.

the other man works. UKIP leaders don't turn up to vote

:21:09.:21:14.

in the European Parliament most of the time. Nigel Farage hasn't tabled

:21:15.:21:21.

a single amendment, not a single amendment to the flow of legislation

:21:22.:21:24.

passing through the European Parliament since July 2009. They

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abstained, extraordinarily, for a party that claims to be in favour of

:21:33.:21:38.

wider and more open trade, they abstained on a vote on the EU-US

:21:39.:21:44.

trade agreement that is being thrashed out right now, which is

:21:45.:21:49.

worth up to ?10 billion a year to the British economy in the future.

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Since 2009, I have taken part in 45% of votes in the European Parliament.

:21:57.:22:00.

They have all taken place in Strasbourg, so by combining getting

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to Strasbourg and running a major national political party, not an

:22:08.:22:11.

easy thing. Mr Clegg, who lives in London, has only taken part in 22%

:22:12.:22:14.

of the votes in the House of Commons. And we are joined now by

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Suzanne Evans from UKIP and Cabinet minister Ed Davey is still with us.

:22:23.:22:26.

Just before we get onto the debate, Suzanne Evans, I want to put to use

:22:27.:22:31.

some of the points made by Ed Davey. First of all, about that pamphlet,

:22:32.:22:37.

lab leaflet about being proposed by anti-Europeanism and racism, what do

:22:38.:22:41.

you say to that? I am really shocked at what I have heard. It has got the

:22:42.:22:45.

Darren Sammy ring about it, don't panic. Let me tell you something

:22:46.:22:51.

else, we have got you on the run. Your membership has fallen by

:22:52.:22:57.

500,000... It is increasing. We have got the Lib Dems on the run. Any

:22:58.:23:02.

time that anyone attacks UKIP for being racist, they attacked the

:23:03.:23:05.

voters who are coming to UKIP in droves. It is not racist to talk

:23:06.:23:10.

about immigration, it is not racist to want to have control of our

:23:11.:23:14.

borders. But is it scaremongering to talk about the figures that Nigel

:23:15.:23:17.

Farage and UKIP talked about in terms of the numbers of Romanians

:23:18.:23:23.

and Bulgarians? Absolutely not, because Nigel Farage has been

:23:24.:23:27.

repeatedly misquoted on this. It was your leaflet. The leaflet said that

:23:28.:23:32.

they could come to the UK, that is practical. We never said they would.

:23:33.:23:37.

The whole of Romania comes to the UK, come on! What about immigration

:23:38.:23:42.

in general? Have you been scaremongering on immigration as a

:23:43.:23:47.

topic you might I don't think we have, and the other parties have

:23:48.:23:51.

refused to tackle the issue. For years, the Labour Party shuts down

:23:52.:23:55.

any discussion of immigration by calling it racist. The Conservative

:23:56.:23:58.

Party did not have the guts to talk about it, which is one of the main

:23:59.:24:02.

concern is that voters have. The fact is that the Liberal party, the

:24:03.:24:06.

Labour Party, the Conservative Party all have the same rhetoric on

:24:07.:24:11.

immigration, and on the EU. They are all out to get us, scraping the

:24:12.:24:18.

barrel. Look at Robert Halfon MP taking terrible smears. We are not

:24:19.:24:20.

going to stand for that, and on March the 29th we will be in his

:24:21.:24:23.

constituency having an action day, and we will be saying, if you love

:24:24.:24:28.

Britain and if you love are low, vote UKIP. It is interesting that

:24:29.:24:33.

most of the polls have been talking about immigration, espousing the

:24:34.:24:37.

benefits of immigration and immigrant labour, and that future

:24:38.:24:41.

growth to some extent is being linked with still having a fairly

:24:42.:24:46.

open policy and welcoming foreign labour. UKIP is not

:24:47.:24:52.

anti-immigration. UKIP is very much pro-immigration on a points based

:24:53.:24:56.

system, such as we have in Australia, where we can welcome

:24:57.:25:00.

people into the UK who wants to contribute, and again it is a way in

:25:01.:25:04.

which we have been grossly misrepresented. Getting onto the

:25:05.:25:08.

debate, Nigel Farage has said he had no choice but to accept Nick

:25:09.:25:12.

Clegg's offer, was there a moment of doubt in his mind? No! More chance

:25:13.:25:17.

of finding a snowflake on the sundown him turning down the

:25:18.:25:21.

opportunity, as he said. Nick Clegg is putting himself into the lion's

:25:22.:25:25.

den, the question is, will he get out alive? They are both good

:25:26.:25:29.

orators, but if I am hearing the sort of things Ed Davey is talking

:25:30.:25:34.

about, if Nick Clegg repeats that, Nigel Farage will have no problem

:25:35.:25:37.

knocking him down. Does it mean accepting a debate with Nick Clegg,

:25:38.:25:42.

that Nigel Farage has accepted he will not be part of a prime

:25:43.:25:46.

ministerial debate? I don't think so, and we have had the Ofcom

:25:47.:25:53.

ruling... He is still trying? He would still very much like to be in

:25:54.:25:56.

that debate. But he has accepted it will not happen, so this is is best

:25:57.:25:59.

chance at a debate with a party leader? I think the public will

:26:00.:26:05.

rightly question in 2015, if Nigel Farage is not part of the national

:26:06.:26:09.

debates with the other two party leaders, the voters will not stand

:26:10.:26:16.

for it. The Lib Dems last night did appallingly badly in the Nottingham

:26:17.:26:20.

by-election, bus pass Elvis did better! UKIP is the third party of

:26:21.:26:26.

Britain now, we should be in that debate. Simon Hughes has said it

:26:27.:26:30.

will be a tough gig, no doubt that Nick Clegg is an expert on all

:26:31.:26:33.

things European. Is it a high rick strategy for him? I don't think so,

:26:34.:26:40.

we are proud to be the party of income they are happy to be out, so

:26:41.:26:44.

it is good for the electorate that they have clear choice. I think Nick

:26:45.:26:49.

Clegg will talk about the jobs we would lose if we pulled out of

:26:50.:26:52.

Europe, and there will be a lot of talk about the crime is you. Because

:26:53.:26:57.

of our co-operation with Europol, because of the European arrest

:26:58.:27:01.

warrant, serious criminals, drug traffickers, terrorists, murderers,

:27:02.:27:07.

rapists, human traffickers, are caught. By pulling out of Europe, as

:27:08.:27:13.

UKIP wants to do, our streets in Britain would be less safe and

:27:14.:27:16.

secure, that is a dangerous strategy. It is interesting you

:27:17.:27:20.

should mention human trafficking, because I was at a meeting talking

:27:21.:27:23.

about this last night, and the open borders that we have within the EU

:27:24.:27:27.

make it much, much easier for women in particular to be sold into

:27:28.:27:31.

slavery in this country, and that disgusts me. We need to take control

:27:32.:27:39.

of our borders, not just to stop criminals coming in, but to protect

:27:40.:27:41.

women. But do you agree that you have to cooperate with other

:27:42.:27:45.

countries? There are other ways of cooperating over crime. How do you

:27:46.:27:49.

think the debate will go? It is really interesting, because one of

:27:50.:27:52.

the things about having Nick Clegg in the leadership debate was that

:27:53.:27:55.

everybody was falling over themselves to agree with him, and

:27:56.:28:00.

that in a way, I think, we went into the last election thinking all of

:28:01.:28:02.

the parties were much more similar than they were, so I am looking

:28:03.:28:06.

forward to this, because it actually gives both of them... They are both

:28:07.:28:12.

poised to be purely oppositional, and I think they will make a better

:28:13.:28:16.

account of themselves. Do you agree? Is it a win-win for both? I think

:28:17.:28:22.

Nick Clegg thinks is Thursday morning phone-ins on LBC have

:28:23.:28:25.

prepared him for this. Have they not? They are not prepared him for

:28:26.:28:30.

Nigel Farage. These politics is on a different wavelength to the three

:28:31.:28:36.

Westminster parties. The kinds of lines of argument that UKIP has not

:28:37.:28:41.

what Westminster leaders are used to dealing with, and that is partly

:28:42.:28:48.

why... I think you are right, because people have not put Nigel

:28:49.:28:51.

Farage and UKIP on the spot. Going back to the EU immigration, the fact

:28:52.:28:56.

is there are 1.4 million UK citizens working in other EU countries,

:28:57.:29:02.

almost as many as working in the UK. There are 1 million British citizens

:29:03.:29:09.

living in Spain. I am not suggesting that they would all have to come

:29:10.:29:12.

back, of course not, but their rights and the support they get

:29:13.:29:16.

would be reduced if we pulled out of the EU. I think that is the sort of

:29:17.:29:22.

fact we need to get on the table. We have got a Westminster compact where

:29:23.:29:25.

everybody agrees on immigration for certain reasons, because they bring

:29:26.:29:29.

in this much GDP, they take out benefits, because blah, blah...

:29:30.:29:34.

Doctors! It is all money on the table, money brought in, and UKIP,

:29:35.:29:39.

like many on the left, think about things differently. On the left, we

:29:40.:29:43.

would say that people are not just units of sale, let's talk about what

:29:44.:29:48.

people bring in as people, and their essential virtues as people. It

:29:49.:29:53.

might surprise you, but that is UKIP policy as well, that is not the

:29:54.:29:56.

prerogative of the left, that is our view that you have just exposed.

:29:57.:30:01.

What do you say to Michael Heseltine, who says it is a

:30:02.:30:05.

misjudgement of Nick Clegg to enter into this, to equate the leadership

:30:06.:30:09.

of a party of government with a protest group? We are not a protest

:30:10.:30:14.

group, that is quite clear, we are consistently polling a third,

:30:15.:30:18.

gaining members rapidly. We have gone far beyond a protest group now,

:30:19.:30:21.

to the point where everyone is saying if we come second in the

:30:22.:30:24.

European elections, we will have failed, which is quite ridiculous.

:30:25.:30:31.

Just to remind you the BBC is hosting the TV debate between Nick

:30:32.:30:35.

Clegg and Nigel Farage on BBC Two from 7:00pm on Wednesday second

:30:36.:30:38.

April. It's been described by one

:30:39.:30:41.

commentator as the most "stupid, intellectually bankrupt and vacuous

:30:42.:30:45.

address of the year". Immigration Minister James Brokenshire's speech

:30:46.:30:48.

yesterday has certainly set the cat amongst the pigeons, and forced a

:30:49.:30:51.

number of politicians to prepare themselves for journalist's tricky

:30:52.:30:52.

questions about who they employ. Mr Brokenshire argued that

:30:53.:31:02.

immigration favours the metropolitan elite, not ordinary British

:31:03.:31:05.

citizens, and he set his sights on the Liberal Democrat Business

:31:06.:31:07.

Secretary, Vince Cable, claiming his views on migration are plain wrong.

:31:08.:31:12.

Naturally Mr Cable hasn't been shy to respond. Here's a flavour of what

:31:13.:31:19.

they've both had to say. For too long, the benefits of immigration

:31:20.:31:27.

went to employers who wanted an easy supply of cheap labour, or to the

:31:28.:31:31.

wealthy metropolitan elite who wanted cheap tradesmen and

:31:32.:31:35.

services, but not to the ordinary hard-working people of this country.

:31:36.:31:39.

I think this stuff about metropolitan elite is way off the

:31:40.:31:43.

mark. Most people in this country benefit from services like the NHS,

:31:44.:31:47.

public transport, catering, in which migrant workers are. This is not

:31:48.:31:54.

just the metropolitan issue. And Simon Walker of the business

:31:55.:31:56.

lobby group, the Institute of Drectors, joins us now. Welcome to

:31:57.:32:01.

the programme. Are you a of the metropolitan elite that James broken

:32:02.:32:11.

-- he referred to. Perhaps I am, I suddenly lived in west London. The

:32:12.:32:14.

fact is one in seven businesses have been set up why migrants who have

:32:15.:32:19.

come here to create businesses around the country. Nigel Farage

:32:20.:32:25.

acknowledges that economic growth will fall if you cut immigration.

:32:26.:32:30.

Our members say immigrants bring skills and bring motivation to this

:32:31.:32:35.

country which is very necessary. What was your response to that

:32:36.:32:40.

speech? We said it was feeble and pathetic. We thought it was unwise

:32:41.:32:46.

of politicians to stoke up feelings about this. It is time people start

:32:47.:32:51.

telling the truth in the dog and duck, which is that immigrants bring

:32:52.:32:56.

benefits to this community. They take fewer benefits away from it in

:32:57.:33:01.

terms of benefits provided by the state. They are net contributors to

:33:02.:33:06.

the British economy. For those who are trying to get low skilled,

:33:07.:33:10.

low-paid jobs, there is very strong anecdotal evidence to say that they

:33:11.:33:14.

are up against fierce competition from relatively cheap foreign

:33:15.:33:18.

labour. I don't know if that really is the problem. I think a big part

:33:19.:33:22.

of the problem is benefits system, which makes it a rational choice not

:33:23.:33:28.

to work. Because people would be facing a 90% marginal tax rate if

:33:29.:33:35.

they were to go into work, instead of drawing benefits. It is a fault

:33:36.:33:38.

in the benefit system in this country. I really dispute that. The

:33:39.:33:43.

fact is most people in poverty have at least one working member in their

:33:44.:33:48.

household and many people have two working people in their house. He is

:33:49.:33:54.

talking about people on the dole. When we talk about people on low

:33:55.:33:59.

wages with housing problems who reputedly object the most

:34:00.:34:02.

immigration, their real problem is they have housing problems and

:34:03.:34:06.

weight problems. Their wages don't cover their housing, they can't get

:34:07.:34:09.

a decent house, UKIP say it is because of immigrants. -- and wage

:34:10.:34:14.

problems. You have white ring -- you have right-wing parties

:34:15.:34:23.

presenting immigration of as the problem when it is not the real

:34:24.:34:28.

problem. I am in favour of immigration, one of the best things

:34:29.:34:31.

about Britain is that we are so open-minded in the fact that we take

:34:32.:34:35.

in the world, and that London is a world capital. But immigration is a

:34:36.:34:41.

net positive, usually the benefits go to the rich and the disadvantages

:34:42.:34:46.

tend to go towards those who are competing with immigrants for work.

:34:47.:34:52.

I think he was making a good point in a bad way. I think he is right in

:34:53.:34:58.

saying there is a rich-poor access. If you look at people who support

:34:59.:35:02.

immigration, it is easy for us to say because none of us are ready

:35:03.:35:05.

competing with immigrants for jobs. But those who are looking for work,

:35:06.:35:09.

you can see why it is tougher. There is really good data on this. In the

:35:10.:35:17.

main, people despised by migrant workers are other migrants. The main

:35:18.:35:21.

problem created is from the house country whence the migrants came. --

:35:22.:35:25.

host country. We should be asking why they are being blamed. Should we

:35:26.:35:33.

have no immigration controls? I don't think society is ready for

:35:34.:35:38.

that. Would business like to have an even more open... We would like to

:35:39.:35:44.

have an even more open system am absolutely. We would like more

:35:45.:35:48.

access to more people of different bright ease of skills and different

:35:49.:35:53.

motivation. Would we prefer -- different varieties. Our businesses

:35:54.:35:59.

would thrive more if we were free about it. The Liberal Democrats are

:36:00.:36:05.

the party for business? Many issues make up the political mix and

:36:06.:36:08.

immigration is not the only one. Frequently, our members complained

:36:09.:36:13.

about young South Africans, New Zealanders, Canadians, Americans who

:36:14.:36:18.

come in here and can't stay on, they lose their skills and talents after

:36:19.:36:21.

two years because of an immigration policy that throws them out and that

:36:22.:36:26.

is mad. The pledge that was made, that we touched on with Ed Davey,

:36:27.:36:31.

but was undeliverable from the start, the idea of getting net

:36:32.:36:36.

migration to tens of thousands? I think it was something Cameron

:36:37.:36:39.

blurted out thinking it sounded good in his speech. Who commits to a

:36:40.:36:46.

target like that? When you have no control over a large proportion of

:36:47.:36:51.

it. Of course. By all means, target the incoming people but you can't

:36:52.:36:55.

really decide who -- control who decides to emigrate. It suggested

:36:56.:37:01.

they were not race is about immigration if that is the quality

:37:02.:37:06.

of their place -- not really serious about immigration. If that was the

:37:07.:37:11.

quality of their pledge. If there was not immigration we would have to

:37:12.:37:15.

fix problems in the labour force but right now we can afford to let the

:37:16.:37:19.

poor stay on the dole because we have a nonstop supply of immigrants.

:37:20.:37:23.

There are lot of problems around including housing and a lack of

:37:24.:37:26.

skills but to blame them on immigration is a mistake, and that

:37:27.:37:29.

is what are being irresponsible in doing.

:37:30.:37:32.

Now, over in Dublin there's a major political drama unfolding. The

:37:33.:37:36.

European People's Party - the centre right political group in the

:37:37.:37:39.

European Parliament - is meeting to choose their candidate for the

:37:40.:37:41.

Presidency of the European Commission. David Cameron won't be

:37:42.:37:45.

there. The Tories quit the EPP group back in 2009. But some of the

:37:46.:37:49.

biggest names in European politics, such as German chancellor Angela

:37:50.:37:58.

Merkel, are in Ireland. As the candidates jostle for position, who

:37:59.:38:01.

is in pole position to succeed Jose Manuel Barroso? We're joined now by

:38:02.:38:05.

Alex Donohue of Ladbrokes to give us the latest odds. The Luxembourg

:38:06.:38:15.

candidate leads the way, the German candidate is second, the Belgian

:38:16.:38:18.

representative is at 5-1 and the French candidate, 8-1. Looking at

:38:19.:38:29.

that, Juncker has the backing of Angela Merkel and her Christian

:38:30.:38:36.

Democrat party, it is his to lose? Absolutely, 85% of bets have been

:38:37.:38:41.

for him. We haven't taken a single bet on the two outsiders, we think

:38:42.:38:47.

Juncker might be raising a point of the black stuff to celebrate in

:38:48.:38:59.

Dublin. Two candidates are on the EPP and the other two candidates are

:39:00.:39:03.

on the left. Do you think Juncker is going to take it? I hope so, use one

:39:04.:39:10.

of my favourite Europeans. He gave the best quote about how the EU

:39:11.:39:15.

operates saying we do things, it is competitive, nobody understands, so

:39:16.:39:19.

we keep going. He is actually quite witty. That's OK, then!

:39:20.:39:24.

And for the latest developments in Dublin, we're joined by Diarmaid

:39:25.:39:30.

Fleming. Welcome to the programme. There is no British politician in

:39:31.:39:33.

Dublin, what are they missing out on? What is the atmosphere like?

:39:34.:39:39.

There are about 2000 delegates from parties actively in the EPP, and

:39:40.:39:44.

also observers, notably from Ukraine and a whole host of journalists and

:39:45.:39:48.

officials. The building behind me looks like a tilted barrel, there

:39:49.:39:52.

might be a few tilted barrels after the celebrations tonight. It is a

:39:53.:40:00.

huge little festival, if you like, but for those who agree with each

:40:01.:40:04.

other. There is not going to be any particular debate. It is a sensitive

:40:05.:40:08.

matter in a certain way. Ireland was in love with the EU in times gone

:40:09.:40:11.

past when the money flowed one-way come about since the economic crash

:40:12.:40:15.

and austerity, this is fairly sensitive to rain domestically. In a

:40:16.:40:20.

way it is convenient for Ender Kelly, the Irish Prime Minister,

:40:21.:40:25.

that the agenda has been dominated largely by Ukraine rather than

:40:26.:40:29.

economic matters. Because otherwise it might not have gone down so well

:40:30.:40:37.

in Ireland? Are people gripped? I would say people are underwhelmed by

:40:38.:40:40.

the overwhelming number of politicians that have arrived here.

:40:41.:40:44.

People are polite and there is a feeling that this is good for

:40:45.:40:47.

commerce and trade, that you have similar people visiting and such a

:40:48.:40:51.

big event can be staged. If you remember last December, when Ireland

:40:52.:40:57.

exited the EU bailout, Jose Mourinho Barroso wanted to come to Ireland.

:40:58.:41:01.

The government asked him not to come -- Jose-Maria well Barroso wanted to

:41:02.:41:02.

come to the government here privately at the

:41:03.:41:16.

conference itself, they are backslapping each other and they are

:41:17.:41:20.

being congratulated by all of their European counterparts. In terms of

:41:21.:41:25.

the public appetite here, people are pretty nonplussed. Thank you very

:41:26.:41:33.

much. It is a big decision for European politics, they may not be

:41:34.:41:36.

gripped in Ireland because of what is happening. David Cameron is on

:41:37.:41:42.

the margins. Let's revisit that decision to pull out of the EPP, the

:41:43.:41:46.

sort of centre-right grouping. He was wrong? He did that because Liam

:41:47.:41:51.

Fox proposed it in the leadership bid. He stole that pledge from Fox

:41:52.:41:55.

without really thinking. I think most which is people -- like most

:41:56.:42:03.

British people, David Cameron could not care about what group he is in.

:42:04.:42:08.

I think Cameron underestimated how much problems it would cause with

:42:09.:42:11.

Germany, Angela Merkel has never forgiven him. If he had his time

:42:12.:42:16.

again, you probably wouldn't do it, simply because it annoyed Angela

:42:17.:42:21.

Merkel. It is so it's a terrible the average British voter, the way the

:42:22.:42:24.

European Parliament works -- it is so Lisa Esat Eric

:42:25.:42:31.

-- it is so esoteric. Do you think it would help him in terms of coming

:42:32.:42:41.

back to his party, saying I am able to negotiate with the most important

:42:42.:42:48.

person, Angela Merkel? Exactly. I think this is a brilliant example of

:42:49.:42:52.

why playing to the gallery, saying we are conservatives and can do what

:42:53.:42:56.

we want, we don't listen to Europe, it kicks a problem further down the

:42:57.:43:01.

line which then really comes back to you. This is going to haunt him for

:43:02.:43:06.

ages, that he hasn't got a seat at the table. Does it matter, who wins

:43:07.:43:11.

this contest? Of course it matters to Europe. We have a massive problem

:43:12.:43:17.

in Europe between a redistribution of money since the crash upwards.

:43:18.:43:23.

Whether the guys on the left or the right... I think the European

:43:24.:43:29.

Parliament is one of the most irrelevant constitutions in the

:43:30.:43:32.

whole continent. I would be more worried about who wins the Swedish

:43:33.:43:33.

election than this one. Now - Sir Tom Jones has dubbed him

:43:34.:43:40.

"the singing politician" - 19-year-old Jermain Jackman has got

:43:41.:43:42.

through the blind auditions and last week's battle round on the BBC One

:43:43.:43:46.

talent show The Voice. But he's also a Labour Party activist who says he

:43:47.:43:50.

wants to be Prime Minister. Here he is in full voice on the show.

:43:51.:44:01.

# I am not going to leave you. # There is no way I will!

:44:02.:44:11.

What is your name? Jermain Jackman. Do you sing a lot? In church, at

:44:12.:44:23.

venues, for charities, I volunteer, I am into politics as well. Politics

:44:24.:44:33.

as well? I am the youth coordinator for Hackney and the Labour Party.

:44:34.:44:42.

UIs singing politician? -- you are a singing politician? There is a

:44:43.:44:46.

headline that said I would be the first singing black run minister.

:44:47.:44:57.

Grand ambitions! Well, I am just aiming high, trying to inspire the

:44:58.:45:00.

young people that we have in this country. What was it like being on

:45:01.:45:06.

the show? It was so surreal to have those four coaches to tell me, when

:45:07.:45:13.

he wanted me on his team, it was out of this world. Being recognised on

:45:14.:45:17.

the street, oh, my goodness! You will be recognised a lot more than I

:45:18.:45:23.

ever and, quite rightly! So do you want to be a singer, then? Music and

:45:24.:45:28.

politics are my passions, but music is my first love, and politics comes

:45:29.:45:33.

on the side, inspiring young people, that is what I aim to do with my

:45:34.:45:38.

music. What are the main platforms you would like to promote

:45:39.:45:43.

politically? My policies, in a sense? Just motivation, getting

:45:44.:45:47.

young people engaged in politics, making them believe that these goals

:45:48.:45:51.

are achievable. Have you met David Cameron? Yes, I got a Spirit of

:45:52.:45:59.

London award, and I was at Ten Downing Street, a big reception with

:46:00.:46:02.

a couple of celebrities, politicians, I was there with my

:46:03.:46:06.

mum, and David Cameron was saying hello to everyone. I said to him, I

:46:07.:46:13.

guess I will take your job, then. I don't know if you heard me or not!

:46:14.:46:18.

He smirked, so I guess he must have heard. Encouraging that simply wants

:46:19.:46:23.

to be the first black Prime Minister. Anyone who wants to be

:46:24.:46:27.

Prime Minister is a great thing! We need the talent in Westminster!

:46:28.:46:32.

Watching at home, most of your viewers could probably do it better

:46:33.:46:38.

than those guys. From a singing point of view, great, but

:46:39.:46:42.

interesting that the political dimensions has come through. It is

:46:43.:46:47.

so heartening to see someone on The Voice who cares about politics as

:46:48.:46:51.

well, because I really love those talent shows, but they are often

:46:52.:46:57.

quite kind of narrow, I need to succeed, I need to succeed for me,

:46:58.:47:02.

and I think you are so great. Thank you very much. He looked surprised

:47:03.:47:07.

when you mentioned politics. Like I said, it was so surreal to be in

:47:08.:47:12.

front of a legend, Tom Jones, everybody calls me a grandad because

:47:13.:47:17.

I take music from the 1960s and 70s. What are the issues that you and

:47:18.:47:22.

your friends are concerned about growing up, I think young people in

:47:23.:47:25.

this country are interested in politics. They see the political

:47:26.:47:31.

issues, about connecting political issues with political education, and

:47:32.:47:34.

getting that political education into schools, getting their mind

:47:35.:47:39.

going about responsibilities and what it means to vote, just getting

:47:40.:47:44.

them engaged. Are they interested in party politics? We are hugely

:47:45.:47:50.

interested in politics, but when it comes to choosing a winner, you see

:47:51.:47:54.

something in the Labour Party that you think is worth giving up your

:47:55.:47:58.

time for. You don't get many young people into the Lib Dems, the

:47:59.:48:02.

Tories, any political party. So I think Labour needs you more than the

:48:03.:48:08.

other way round! Do politicians do enough or do much for young people?

:48:09.:48:13.

I think they need to do much more, they need to talk to us. At the

:48:14.:48:18.

moment, it feels like Westminster and party politics is up there, and

:48:19.:48:25.

young people are there, we have seen DMA being cut, youth clubs being

:48:26.:48:29.

shut, and young people are being pushed into a corner and ignored. --

:48:30.:48:35.

EMA. It is about shining a light on young people, motivating them to

:48:36.:48:40.

vote, make their voices heard. Are you unusual among your friends as

:48:41.:48:43.

wanting to get actively involved in politics? I don't think so. I think

:48:44.:48:50.

I am just one of those leaders. If you look at Martin Luther King, was

:48:51.:48:55.

he unusual? He just wanted to make a change, stand for a change. I just

:48:56.:49:00.

feel like I will be a face of change. Looking ahead to the

:49:01.:49:04.

Scottish referendum, they are lowering the voting age, do you

:49:05.:49:07.

think that could be a real possibility? I don't see why not. We

:49:08.:49:12.

talk all the time about the problems of apathy and disengagement, and it

:49:13.:49:17.

is a serious problem in Westminster. If young people don't vote... But

:49:18.:49:26.

will they vote? You can't not offer a vote to younger people on the

:49:27.:49:30.

basis that they might not use it. If you are worried about them using it,

:49:31.:49:35.

make it as broad as possible. Do you agree? I do agree. I think there is

:49:36.:49:41.

a case for it. Alex Salmond has found that young people are against

:49:42.:49:44.

independence now, which is a surprise when! We were discussing

:49:45.:49:51.

the revelations regarding the Stephen Lawrence case, Doreen

:49:52.:49:53.

Lawrence talking about the case that there is no trust between police and

:49:54.:49:58.

communities or some black and ethnic minority communities. How do you

:49:59.:50:01.

feel as a young black man living in London? There needs to be a level of

:50:02.:50:05.

trust with young people, or people in general with the police, and I

:50:06.:50:09.

think that trust and confidence is slowly deteriorating. You think it

:50:10.:50:15.

is deteriorating recently? It fluctuates, it fluctuates, and I

:50:16.:50:19.

used to campaign for police communications. I used to get police

:50:20.:50:23.

officers and young people to meet at the Town Hall, just to communicate

:50:24.:50:27.

and get along with each other, have that common ground and start to

:50:28.:50:32.

respect one another. But you think it is going downhill now? If you see

:50:33.:50:37.

the Stephen Lawrence verdict yesterday, it is like, how are we

:50:38.:50:41.

going to trust the police? That is why people are reluctant to report

:50:42.:50:45.

things to the police. It is sickening to think that there is

:50:46.:50:50.

still corruption in the Met Police, just a small minority of corrupt

:50:51.:50:55.

police officers that are ruining the great work that the Metropolitan

:50:56.:50:58.

Police do. It is interesting that you felt there was a relationship,

:50:59.:51:03.

that things had got better in the past, and these events and

:51:04.:51:06.

revelations of the very thing that can dent and damage that. It is

:51:07.:51:11.

important that we get these out of the way and build towards the

:51:12.:51:16.

future. I would do that where we can get police officers and young people

:51:17.:51:20.

on the same ground, on the same playing ground, Common ground, where

:51:21.:51:24.

they can communicate and get to know one another, and it is not a thing

:51:25.:51:29.

were police are just looking at young people. I get that a lot, when

:51:30.:51:36.

it is raining and I have my hood up. They look at me, there is no need

:51:37.:51:42.

for it. It goes deeper than that, it goes in to stop and search, things

:51:43.:51:46.

like that. Weiss what do they call them, bully bands? I grew up knowing

:51:47.:52:00.

that is what they call them. Have you been stopped and searched? Loads

:52:01.:52:03.

of friends have been stopped and searched. It's positive if it gets

:52:04.:52:09.

knives and guns off the road, but it can damage the trust that young

:52:10.:52:15.

people have. And there is a whole section that goes really deep. There

:52:16.:52:19.

have been reports that Number Ten are not quite so keen on the idea.

:52:20.:52:25.

She is making a plausible case for herself. It is really important,

:52:26.:52:29.

because it is not just the inconvenience of being stopped and

:52:30.:52:32.

searched, but the more likely you are to be stopped, the more likely

:52:33.:52:37.

you are to be convicted, and it means the criminal justice system is

:52:38.:52:41.

raked in a racist direction. It is important to do better than this,

:52:42.:52:46.

and if anyone can, it might be Theresa May. She is a steely lady.

:52:47.:52:54.

We on Daily Politics like a bit of show business ourselves, so we

:52:55.:52:59.

thought we would have our own version of The Voice, the political

:53:00.:53:04.

voice, that is. We are going to bring up a quote or policy from a

:53:05.:53:08.

party, and all you have to do is guess which one said it. Easy! So

:53:09.:53:17.

here is the first one. Which party said they will protect your jobs and

:53:18.:53:20.

benefits? Shout out if you know the answer! Recently, it has to be

:53:21.:53:27.

recently. Who said that recently? Anybody? UKIP, well done. It was not

:53:28.:53:33.

as hard as you thought. He is a swot! He is, though. Don't worry,

:53:34.:53:40.

you are putting in your justification first. Which party

:53:41.:53:43.

warned that those who don't have the skills they need for a job will have

:53:44.:53:47.

to take up training alongside their job search or lose their benefits?

:53:48.:53:53.

It is probably Labour, isn't it? Well done, it is. It gets easier,

:53:54.:53:58.

who wants to scrap national insurance contributions for under 21

:53:59.:54:01.

is to make it easier for firms to take on younger workers? Jermain?

:54:02.:54:09.

Let me say Lib Dems. No, conservatives! And finally, name the

:54:10.:54:16.

party that wants to increase exit checks to improve border controls.

:54:17.:54:21.

That was just in the programme. I don't have a clue! That was the Lib

:54:22.:54:27.

Dems. Well done! Thank you for having me on the show, thank you. If

:54:28.:54:32.

you feel you have missed out on the big political stories, it is our job

:54:33.:54:36.

to bring the important and not so important to you, Adam Fleming with

:54:37.:54:37.

the week in 60 seconds. Who knew World War III would start

:54:38.:54:47.

with some Slavic chaps eyeballing each other moodily? The crisis in

:54:48.:54:53.

Ukraine rumbled on as Russia effectively occupied the Crimea.

:54:54.:54:56.

World leaders talked about it! Immigrants have taken our jobs, no,

:54:57.:55:01.

they haven't. Or maybe they have a little bit. According to a report

:55:02.:55:04.

that was repressed by the government back row until it wasn't. He has

:55:05.:55:09.

been banging on about it for ages, but Eric Pickles was forced on this

:55:10.:55:14.

very programme to confront his record on reintroducing weekly

:55:15.:55:19.

rubbish collections. 70% of bins are still collected fortnightly. We have

:55:20.:55:23.

only been in office a little while... And flipping MPs and peers

:55:24.:55:26.

have been doing this again. Is that Dave? I'm just calling to

:55:27.:55:38.

say that picture of you on the phone to Barack Obama is being mercilessly

:55:39.:55:39.

spoofed online, bye! So what was supposed to be a very

:55:40.:55:52.

serious phone call about Ukraine rather got ripped to pieces and

:55:53.:55:56.

Twitter, the perils of Twitter. I think it is the perils of posting a

:55:57.:56:01.

photograph of yourself on Twitter, it is just vanity. He paid the price

:56:02.:56:06.

for his own ridiculous vanity. Do you agree? Politicians now, look,

:56:07.:56:12.

George Osborne with his hot dog, it can backfire on you. Gubler the only

:56:13.:56:18.

ones we remember are the ones with 1000 comments. They think they will

:56:19.:56:27.

bypass the journalists but the public are even more scathing! Do

:56:28.:56:30.

think we should CNN to those pictures? More, it is entertaining!

:56:31.:56:41.

-- see an end. It leads to a more serious issue, Ukraine. Depending on

:56:42.:56:44.

how you look at it, Crimea looks as if it has gone. Yes, it is difficult

:56:45.:56:54.

to see how the referendum will not come up with the same outcome. It

:56:55.:56:58.

looks as if Putin has correctly calculated that Europe couldn't do

:56:59.:57:03.

anything and America has not yet got its energy policy sorted. So what

:57:04.:57:09.

happens? There was a bit of a divide in the EU about how to deal with

:57:10.:57:12.

it, the Eastern European countries would have liked to have seen a

:57:13.:57:15.

tougher stance, as would Britain, but not against Angela Merkel. I

:57:16.:57:20.

don't think anyone was prepared for how anti-European food and is.

:57:21.:57:26.

Really? Yeah. There was always a sense that he was naturally allied

:57:27.:57:34.

against them when there was something like Syria, but I think

:57:35.:57:38.

the sheer hostility came as a slap in the face. Do think it says

:57:39.:57:41.

something about his power in terms of his economic strength that he is

:57:42.:57:47.

in the long weakening, or holding on to these former satellite states? I

:57:48.:57:53.

think Russia is morphing into a sort of big gas company with an arm, and

:57:54.:57:59.

it is just testing the limits. It wants the support of Crimea, it has

:58:00.:58:03.

got one in Syria, it probably once one in Egypt, and it is testing to

:58:04.:58:06.

see how much the West still cares about what it does. Putin has

:58:07.:58:13.

prodded Europe and America, and with Europe the answer is not think,

:58:14.:58:16.

America has been a bit more hawkish, sending fighters over. It

:58:17.:58:21.

is interesting, because all the conversation around Sochi was they

:58:22.:58:25.

could not afford it, what are they doing? And then suddenly, after

:58:26.:58:30.

that, this huge show of military strength which shows that Putin, for

:58:31.:58:37.

him, money is no object, we have everything. That is it for today.

:58:38.:58:42.

Thank you to all of our guests, particularly do you do for being the

:58:43.:58:46.

guests of the day. The one o'clock news is starting on BBC One, and

:58:47.:58:51.

Andrew will be back at 11 o'clock on Sunday morning with the Sunday

:58:52.:58:52.

Politics. Bye.

:58:53.:58:54.

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