07/03/2014 Daily Politics

Good afternoon and welcome to the Daily Politics.

The Lib Dems meet to prepare for local and European elections - are

they in danger of being wiped out in that contest and becoming the fourth

party in British politics? The big Clegg - Farage bout is on. We'll

preview what could be the bloodiest debate of the political year.

The glitterati of centre-right European politics descend on Dublin

to pick the man they want to take the EU's top job - but David Cameron

won't be there. We'll tell you what we're missing out on. There is a

headline that says I will be the first singing black Prime Minister.

And he's been dubbed "the singing politician" by sir Tom Jones - we

talk to Jermain Jackman from The Voice.

All that in the next hour and with us for the whole programme today,

two journalists who we'd all turn for - the Editor of the Spectator,

Fraser Nelson and the Guardian's Zoe Williams. Welcome to the programme.

Let's start with the latest disturbing revelations about the

Metropolitan Police's investigation into the murder of Stephen Lawrence

21 years ago now. The Home Secretary has announced a new public inquiry

after is it was revealed that the Met spied on the Lawrence family in

an attempt to "smear them" and withheld information from the

Macpherson inquiry that may have revealed that one of the

investigating officers was corrupt. In an emotional speech in the House

of Lords, Stephen's mother, Doreen Lawrence - who is now a Labour Peer

- thanked Home Secretary Theresa May for setting up the review. I think

when we embarked on the corruption case, I knew there was always

something and it was through difficult to convince other people

around me, especially other police officers. And even at times, the

Home Secretary, that I believed there was corruption at the start of

Stephen's case. It has taken over a year for that, but it has taken

nearly 21 years since Stephen has been killed. The fact that he is our

family... -- our family had to go through all this, and still there is

more to come out. An emotional Doreen Lawrence. Which of these

dreadful revelations is the most shocking? It is really hard to save

or that she is such a moving speaker. It is impossible to watch

her without feeling what she is feeling. The police have never

covered themselves in glory with this. It would have been bad enough

if we were dealing with incompetence. The thing is that

since the MacPherson import, there have been so many revelations

surrounding that -- the Macpherson report. The stuff around the

infiltration of groups, the stuff around going after law-abiding

citizens to no obvious purpose. As she said, this isn't that much of a

surprise. Were you that shocked? I actually was that shocked, to find

out the police had been putting spy not only in their camp but that this

unit was involved in more cases that may result in miscarriages of

justice, that was the most shocking thing, the idea that we could have

criminal cases where there could be a miscarriage of justice because the

police were hiding the facts of what their spies were up to. They have

had spies imperfectly legitimate environmental groups, and our kick

groups that were just politically experimenting, and we have known

about that for a couple of years. I think in a way, the shock has been

that we haven't taken seriously the infiltration generally. Because it

has never been OK for the police to act like that. I would disagree, I

think in some circumstances it is necessary for the police to put

spies in certain camps. Environmental camps? Especially!

What is shocking is that they were keeping the secret internally. I

think if you have a culture of being allowed to use spies wherever you

like without discretion, of course you will end up covering it up. I am

not at all surprised about the cover-ups. Is that really the part

that is going to injure, as far as the Met's reputation is concerned?

That they withheld information and blocked the Macpherson inquiry, and

it is going to keep tripping out until it is all out there? --

dripping out. It is difficult to tell between deliberate secrecy and

incompetence with the police. When you listen to stories about spies

coming back in, having been embedded for years with groups, they would

come back in and managers wouldn't even know who they were. There is an

argument about whether some is justifiable and some is not, and the

STS has now been disbanded -- the SDS has been disbanded. What will a

public inquiry do, is it the right thing? I think it is, this has been

going on for years. What else were the SDS involved in, where were the

miscarriages of justice? This needs to be investigated to the end, until

we know which other cases could have been corrupted or compromised. One

of the other things Doreen Lawrence said is that you still can't trust

them, trust and confidence in the Met is going to go right down. She

feels the religion chip has not changed, do you think it is true --

the relationship. How big a problem is it, the constant denting public

trust, Hillsborough, plebgate, this... There is still a huge

problem with racism in the police. If you look at what the Duggan

family say about the experience of being a young black man who hasn't

done anything... On his way to buy a gun. Distinct from Mark Duggan, in

the life that you live, the number of times you are harassed and

hassled by the police... I didn't phrase it very well. But there is

still a huge problem of racism that comes up again and again and nothing

will go away until that goes away. Now - the Lib Dems meet in York this

afternoon for their Spring Conference where their minds will be

focussed on May's local and European elections. The party president, Tim

Farron, has warned that the party could be wiped out in those

elections. There's probably a bit of expectation management there, but

with ministers in Government they are no longer attracting the protest

vote. So what's the future for a party that's now regularly coming

fourth in the polls behind UKIP. Here's Alex Forsyth.

I declare that David is duly elected member of Parliament for the

Eastleigh constituency. It is 1994 and in the background, a freshfaced

Nigel Farage in UKIP's first-ever attempt to win a Parliamentary seat.

This was an Eastleigh by-election, the Lib Dems won, UKIP polled

pulley. Fast forward to last year, another by-election in Eastleigh,

again the Lib Dems won but this time their vote plummeted and UKIP

finished a close second. This Lib Dem stronghold might not seem the

natural place for a UKIP charge, but in a railway town with industrial

roots, they appeal to the common man. They are saying what people

want, are the people are not doing it. They are good, I can't think of

the guys name but he is a really nice guy. UKIP claim they are on

track for some good results while Lib Dems support is heading for the

buffers. Click finish the Liberal Democrat -- Nick Clegg finished the

Liberal Democrats off when he stood in the Rose Garden. Nobody trust

them. If you vote Liberal Democrat, you made get Labour or Conservative.

Edge you may get. UKIP's anti-immigration message is popular.

Does the distant relative of Guy Fawkes share his ancestor's

ambitions for Parliament? I would rather achieve our goal peacefully

rather than exploding onto the scene! This leaked Lib Dem briefing

tells candidates how to handle UKIP voters, including the advice, don't

panic. This illusion Lib Dems don't naturally migrate to UKIP, but Nigel

Farage is scooping up the protest vote now Nick Clegg's party is in

government. In places like Eastleigh, where there is a familiar

incumbent MP, a good local support network, the Lib Dems will fight

hard to hold onto Westminster seats and they might just do it, but when

it comes to the European elections it'll be much harder. There is a

real risk to the party that in euros, we could end up with zero

MEP. I don't think it will happen but I think you will find the Lib

Dems are a bit nervous about making sure we work our socks off over the

next couple of months to make sure it doesn't happen in reality. Much

of that work will fall to town hall activists will stop they are

confident about the future but accept there may be unwelcome

results in the European elections. The general election will be very

difficult for the Liberal Democrats in 2015 compared to 2010, because we

have a record of government to do different. That can be an advantage.

The party will be hard pushed to convince everyone their spelling

government has been a vote winner. They have some hard work to do to

turn around their fortunes. And we're joined now by Lib Dem

Energy Secretary Ed Davey. Welcome to the programme. Let's pick up on

those concerns. The possibility of wipe-out in the European elections,

do you share that fear? We can fourth in the last European

elections, it is worth remembering that, it was not a great result. We

went on to derision well at the general election and entered

government for the first time for 90 years -- went on to do really well

at the general election. I think we could do quite well at the European

elections. Based on a positive agenda. We are going to fight, as

the only party of in. I respect UKIP, partly because they have a

clear position. They want to be out of the European Union, we are the

only party who are saying, we are the party of in. We are -- the

Tories are divided and Labour are remarkably silent. I think people

who believe in Britain's membership of the European Union, and there are

millions of them, if they see an election debate where the Liberal

Democrats are championing our membership, I think we can attract

more voters. The problem is, will they vote? You seem to concede that

if you come forth it is not such a big deal. Are you accepting it is a

real possibility? The polls bear it out. I hope we don't. Of course. It

happened last time so there is clearly a possibility. Last time, we

went on to have a really good general election result. I suppose

we are looking at a slightly different position. You're going to

be defending your record in government, it may be a good or bad

thing. You have lost eight of 15 deposits in by-elections since the

coalition came to power, you could argue you are corrupting Elektra

Lee. -- electorally. We won the Eastleigh by-election despite a UKIP

surge. If you look at our record in government, the ?10,000 tax free

that we have achieved this April has taken 3 million of the lowest paid

out of income tax, delivering a ?700 a year tax cut for them that was in

our manifesto, not the Conservatives' and not supported by

Labour. Liberal Democrats have been part of turning around our economy

so that we have more people in jobs. We have a proud record of defending

a strong economy and a fairer society. It is not coming through in

the polls, you must admit that. You can predict it may change in a

general election but the Europeans are coming first. If you were to

lose, let's say, the majority of your MEPs, morale would sink ever

lower and there would be, do you accept, a sense of panic in the

party, who have got to go out and campaign on those messages? If you

look at the by-election results, I take Eastleigh, the document in that

film saying campaigner should not panic when they come across a UKIP

voter, even though many wars in VB riposte by their anti-Europeanism

and racism, is that a fair statement -- many will be repulsed. UKIP do

try to appeal to those tenses. The more that we were, knock on people

's doors, get our message over, the fact we have been part of turning

the economy around, clearing up labour's mess, the fact we have

helped to make a fairer society with the tax allowance, the increase in

state pension, free school meals, a premium to help disadvantaged

children, we have a strong record where we have delivered in

government. People realise labour cannot be trusted on the economy.

They caused the mess, they are going to the left. I accept that, it will

be a different framework. That statement that has been produced by

the Association of liberal Democrat councillors, would you be happy to

put your name to that, even though many will be riposte by their

anti-Europeanism and racism... It is clear they are an anti-European

party. They have made their vision clear on Europe and in a way I

respect them for having an anti-European position. Because they

are very clear. I think the Tory Party are not clear on their

position on Europe, I think Labour are very silent. In a European

election, where we are debating the benefits of being in Europe, we

think the benefits are about jobs, the 3 million jobs that depend on

our membership. Do you think it is wise to have literature that says

that you give voters are racist? Well, what we say in that leaflet,

although I have not read it, is that clearly UKIP have sailed close to

the wind on this issue, that is why they are rolling back. They are very

defensive on that position, actually, if you listen to them. But

I am really interested in the European election argument, that is

what Nick Clegg will be debating with Nigel Farage, and he will focus

on jobs, jobs, jobs. Listen, I don't know every single UKIP member. You

obviously feel some of them could be racist, that is something you think

comes across in the rhetoric. It is very clear that UKIP campaign on a

very anti-European, anti-immigrant agenda. In the Eastleigh

by-election, they were putting leaflets through doors implying that

29 million Romanians were going to turn up in Britain, and that

frightened people, it is scaremongering. They basically lied

to people, and that is outrageous. What do you say to that? Let's not

beat around the bush, some of them are racist, talking about Bongo

Bongo Land is racist. We are so embarrassed about saying whether

they are racist or not, of course you are allowed to say that people

are if they go around using language like that. The Tories got into a

mess calling them fruitcakes and loons. That was David Cameron, and

he regrets that. He has learned what the Liberal Democrats have not,

which is that you cannot insult voters. To claim that UKIP voters

are racist, you may be repelled when you meet a UKIP voter, that sounds

like a party which has a problem. The allegation is that if you bode

UKIP, you must be racist - that is not how it works. -- vote. I went to

Eastleigh for the by-election, and I was convinced UKIP would win, they

almost did, because they were much more present than the Lib Dems. You

cannot... UKIP make a lot of noise, but it does not necessarily mean a

lot. Vince Cable says he is intensely relaxed about immigration,

are you? We are debating it this weekend, and we need to be tough on

immigration in the way that Labour was not. We want to restore entry

and exit controls so we know people on limited visas have left. That is

a tough position. We are wanting to increase the period they have to be

here before they can claim benefits, but, and this is where I completely

agree, if you look at the benefits of immigration to our economy and

society, they are huge. We have 40,000, 40,000 doctors who are

foreign-born in the NHS. Foreign students coming to the UK put ?13

billion in our economy every year. That is a positive contribution to

our society and our economy. Those parties who deny that, I think, are

denying the facts. Nigel Farage claims that putting economic

society, because there are plenty of statistics, surveys that look at the

broad economic benefits, if not per head, then to the economy and GDP as

a whole, but he said it would almost be worth, and I am paraphrasing,

perhaps having slightly less GDP but the social impact is what really

counts with the voters, that is what people want, more controlled

immigration. I am not against controlling immigration, the Liberal

Democrats want to restore the exit and entry controls that Labour got

rid of. But I disagree with Mr Farage very strongly on the idea

that immigration has a net benefit to our society. I think having other

cultures here add something to the richness and diversity of British

life. I will tell you what, the 1.4 million UK citizens working in other

EU countries, and a lot of people living in other countries, would not

welcome his approach. The net migration figure that the

Conservatives wanted to bring down to tens of thousands by 2015, is it

achievable? Well, it looks pretty tough. Almost impossible. One of the

reasons we were advising against that approach was, for example, in

the cap it includes student numbers, and one of the things that we are

debating to be party policy at the next election is, if there is going

to be a cap, that student numbers should be taken out of that cap.

Students come and go, it seems rather odd, and that is one of the

reasons why we are not going to hit the target. Would you have any

target for net migration? We think there is a case for it, and we are

going beyond having a target. What we are saying in our immigration

policy debate this weekend is that there should be an annual debate, an

annual debate in Parliament about the level of immigration, so much

more transparency... By setting a level? One of the reasons why I

think immigration has become this rather toxic issue in British

politics is not simply UKIP, although it is part of the problem.

The other reason is that people have lost trust in politicians.

Politicians haven't taken on the debate, so by having an annual

debate in Parliament, we think we could engage in the issues, the

positive side of immigration which is often not heard stay with us.

Ali versus Frazier, David versus Goliath, Frost versus Nixon, Luke

Skywalker versus Darth Vader. A whole gamut there! It might not be

up there with the Rumble in the jungle, but Westminster has been

getting very excited at the prospect of Nick Clegg and Nigel Farage going

head-to-head over Britain's future in the EU. Their television debate

will be on BBC Two from 7pm on Wednesday the 2nd of April, but it

in your diaries! And it will be hosted by David Dimbleby. They have

been warming up for the bout this week, trading blows over how hard

the other man works. UKIP leaders don't turn up to vote

in the European Parliament most of the time. Nigel Farage hasn't tabled

a single amendment, not a single amendment to the flow of legislation

passing through the European Parliament since July 2009. They

abstained, extraordinarily, for a party that claims to be in favour of

wider and more open trade, they abstained on a vote on the EU-US

trade agreement that is being thrashed out right now, which is

worth up to ?10 billion a year to the British economy in the future.

Since 2009, I have taken part in 45% of votes in the European Parliament.

They have all taken place in Strasbourg, so by combining getting

to Strasbourg and running a major national political party, not an

easy thing. Mr Clegg, who lives in London, has only taken part in 22%

of the votes in the House of Commons. And we are joined now by

Suzanne Evans from UKIP and Cabinet minister Ed Davey is still with us.

Just before we get onto the debate, Suzanne Evans, I want to put to use

some of the points made by Ed Davey. First of all, about that pamphlet,

lab leaflet about being proposed by anti-Europeanism and racism, what do

you say to that? I am really shocked at what I have heard. It has got the

Darren Sammy ring about it, don't panic. Let me tell you something

else, we have got you on the run. Your membership has fallen by

500,000... It is increasing. We have got the Lib Dems on the run. Any

time that anyone attacks UKIP for being racist, they attacked the

voters who are coming to UKIP in droves. It is not racist to talk

about immigration, it is not racist to want to have control of our

borders. But is it scaremongering to talk about the figures that Nigel

Farage and UKIP talked about in terms of the numbers of Romanians

and Bulgarians? Absolutely not, because Nigel Farage has been

repeatedly misquoted on this. It was your leaflet. The leaflet said that

they could come to the UK, that is practical. We never said they would.

The whole of Romania comes to the UK, come on! What about immigration

in general? Have you been scaremongering on immigration as a

topic you might I don't think we have, and the other parties have

refused to tackle the issue. For years, the Labour Party shuts down

any discussion of immigration by calling it racist. The Conservative

Party did not have the guts to talk about it, which is one of the main

concern is that voters have. The fact is that the Liberal party, the

Labour Party, the Conservative Party all have the same rhetoric on

immigration, and on the EU. They are all out to get us, scraping the

barrel. Look at Robert Halfon MP taking terrible smears. We are not

going to stand for that, and on March the 29th we will be in his

constituency having an action day, and we will be saying, if you love

Britain and if you love are low, vote UKIP. It is interesting that

most of the polls have been talking about immigration, espousing the

benefits of immigration and immigrant labour, and that future

growth to some extent is being linked with still having a fairly

open policy and welcoming foreign labour. UKIP is not

anti-immigration. UKIP is very much pro-immigration on a points based

system, such as we have in Australia, where we can welcome

people into the UK who wants to contribute, and again it is a way in

which we have been grossly misrepresented. Getting onto the

debate, Nigel Farage has said he had no choice but to accept Nick

Clegg's offer, was there a moment of doubt in his mind? No! More chance

of finding a snowflake on the sundown him turning down the

opportunity, as he said. Nick Clegg is putting himself into the lion's

den, the question is, will he get out alive? They are both good

orators, but if I am hearing the sort of things Ed Davey is talking

about, if Nick Clegg repeats that, Nigel Farage will have no problem

knocking him down. Does it mean accepting a debate with Nick Clegg,

that Nigel Farage has accepted he will not be part of a prime

ministerial debate? I don't think so, and we have had the Ofcom

ruling... He is still trying? He would still very much like to be in

that debate. But he has accepted it will not happen, so this is is best

chance at a debate with a party leader? I think the public will

rightly question in 2015, if Nigel Farage is not part of the national

debates with the other two party leaders, the voters will not stand

for it. The Lib Dems last night did appallingly badly in the Nottingham

by-election, bus pass Elvis did better! UKIP is the third party of

Britain now, we should be in that debate. Simon Hughes has said it

will be a tough gig, no doubt that Nick Clegg is an expert on all

things European. Is it a high rick strategy for him? I don't think so,

we are proud to be the party of income they are happy to be out, so

it is good for the electorate that they have clear choice. I think Nick

Clegg will talk about the jobs we would lose if we pulled out of

Europe, and there will be a lot of talk about the crime is you. Because

of our co-operation with Europol, because of the European arrest

warrant, serious criminals, drug traffickers, terrorists, murderers,

rapists, human traffickers, are caught. By pulling out of Europe, as

UKIP wants to do, our streets in Britain would be less safe and

secure, that is a dangerous strategy. It is interesting you

should mention human trafficking, because I was at a meeting talking

about this last night, and the open borders that we have within the EU

make it much, much easier for women in particular to be sold into

slavery in this country, and that disgusts me. We need to take control

of our borders, not just to stop criminals coming in, but to protect

women. But do you agree that you have to cooperate with other

countries? There are other ways of cooperating over crime. How do you

think the debate will go? It is really interesting, because one of

the things about having Nick Clegg in the leadership debate was that

everybody was falling over themselves to agree with him, and

that in a way, I think, we went into the last election thinking all of

the parties were much more similar than they were, so I am looking

forward to this, because it actually gives both of them... They are both

poised to be purely oppositional, and I think they will make a better

account of themselves. Do you agree? Is it a win-win for both? I think

Nick Clegg thinks is Thursday morning phone-ins on LBC have

prepared him for this. Have they not? They are not prepared him for

Nigel Farage. These politics is on a different wavelength to the three

Westminster parties. The kinds of lines of argument that UKIP has not

what Westminster leaders are used to dealing with, and that is partly

why... I think you are right, because people have not put Nigel

Farage and UKIP on the spot. Going back to the EU immigration, the fact

is there are 1.4 million UK citizens working in other EU countries,

almost as many as working in the UK. There are 1 million British citizens

living in Spain. I am not suggesting that they would all have to come

back, of course not, but their rights and the support they get

would be reduced if we pulled out of the EU. I think that is the sort of

fact we need to get on the table. We have got a Westminster compact where

everybody agrees on immigration for certain reasons, because they bring

in this much GDP, they take out benefits, because blah, blah...

Doctors! It is all money on the table, money brought in, and UKIP,

like many on the left, think about things differently. On the left, we

would say that people are not just units of sale, let's talk about what

people bring in as people, and their essential virtues as people. It

might surprise you, but that is UKIP policy as well, that is not the

prerogative of the left, that is our view that you have just exposed.

What do you say to Michael Heseltine, who says it is a

misjudgement of Nick Clegg to enter into this, to equate the leadership

of a party of government with a protest group? We are not a protest

group, that is quite clear, we are consistently polling a third,

gaining members rapidly. We have gone far beyond a protest group now,

to the point where everyone is saying if we come second in the

European elections, we will have failed, which is quite ridiculous.

Just to remind you the BBC is hosting the TV debate between Nick

Clegg and Nigel Farage on BBC Two from 7:00pm on Wednesday second

April. It's been described by one

commentator as the most "stupid, intellectually bankrupt and vacuous

address of the year". Immigration Minister James Brokenshire's speech

yesterday has certainly set the cat amongst the pigeons, and forced a

number of politicians to prepare themselves for journalist's tricky

questions about who they employ. Mr Brokenshire argued that

immigration favours the metropolitan elite, not ordinary British

citizens, and he set his sights on the Liberal Democrat Business

Secretary, Vince Cable, claiming his views on migration are plain wrong.

Naturally Mr Cable hasn't been shy to respond. Here's a flavour of what

they've both had to say. For too long, the benefits of immigration

went to employers who wanted an easy supply of cheap labour, or to the

wealthy metropolitan elite who wanted cheap tradesmen and

services, but not to the ordinary hard-working people of this country.

I think this stuff about metropolitan elite is way off the

mark. Most people in this country benefit from services like the NHS,

public transport, catering, in which migrant workers are. This is not

just the metropolitan issue. And Simon Walker of the business

lobby group, the Institute of Drectors, joins us now. Welcome to

the programme. Are you a of the metropolitan elite that James broken

-- he referred to. Perhaps I am, I suddenly lived in west London. The

fact is one in seven businesses have been set up why migrants who have

come here to create businesses around the country. Nigel Farage

acknowledges that economic growth will fall if you cut immigration.

Our members say immigrants bring skills and bring motivation to this

country which is very necessary. What was your response to that

speech? We said it was feeble and pathetic. We thought it was unwise

of politicians to stoke up feelings about this. It is time people start

telling the truth in the dog and duck, which is that immigrants bring

benefits to this community. They take fewer benefits away from it in

terms of benefits provided by the state. They are net contributors to

the British economy. For those who are trying to get low skilled,

low-paid jobs, there is very strong anecdotal evidence to say that they

are up against fierce competition from relatively cheap foreign

labour. I don't know if that really is the problem. I think a big part

of the problem is benefits system, which makes it a rational choice not

to work. Because people would be facing a 90% marginal tax rate if

they were to go into work, instead of drawing benefits. It is a fault

in the benefit system in this country. I really dispute that. The

fact is most people in poverty have at least one working member in their

household and many people have two working people in their house. He is

talking about people on the dole. When we talk about people on low

wages with housing problems who reputedly object the most

immigration, their real problem is they have housing problems and

weight problems. Their wages don't cover their housing, they can't get

a decent house, UKIP say it is because of immigrants. -- and wage

problems. You have white ring -- you have right-wing parties

presenting immigration of as the problem when it is not the real

problem. I am in favour of immigration, one of the best things

about Britain is that we are so open-minded in the fact that we take

in the world, and that London is a world capital. But immigration is a

net positive, usually the benefits go to the rich and the disadvantages

tend to go towards those who are competing with immigrants for work.

I think he was making a good point in a bad way. I think he is right in

saying there is a rich-poor access. If you look at people who support

immigration, it is easy for us to say because none of us are ready

competing with immigrants for jobs. But those who are looking for work,

you can see why it is tougher. There is really good data on this. In the

main, people despised by migrant workers are other migrants. The main

problem created is from the house country whence the migrants came. --

host country. We should be asking why they are being blamed. Should we

have no immigration controls? I don't think society is ready for

that. Would business like to have an even more open... We would like to

have an even more open system am absolutely. We would like more

access to more people of different bright ease of skills and different

motivation. Would we prefer -- different varieties. Our businesses

would thrive more if we were free about it. The Liberal Democrats are

the party for business? Many issues make up the political mix and

immigration is not the only one. Frequently, our members complained

about young South Africans, New Zealanders, Canadians, Americans who

come in here and can't stay on, they lose their skills and talents after

two years because of an immigration policy that throws them out and that

is mad. The pledge that was made, that we touched on with Ed Davey,

but was undeliverable from the start, the idea of getting net

migration to tens of thousands? I think it was something Cameron

blurted out thinking it sounded good in his speech. Who commits to a

target like that? When you have no control over a large proportion of

it. Of course. By all means, target the incoming people but you can't

really decide who -- control who decides to emigrate. It suggested

they were not race is about immigration if that is the quality

of their place -- not really serious about immigration. If that was the

quality of their pledge. If there was not immigration we would have to

fix problems in the labour force but right now we can afford to let the

poor stay on the dole because we have a nonstop supply of immigrants.

There are lot of problems around including housing and a lack of

skills but to blame them on immigration is a mistake, and that

is what are being irresponsible in doing.

Now, over in Dublin there's a major political drama unfolding. The

European People's Party - the centre right political group in the

European Parliament - is meeting to choose their candidate for the

Presidency of the European Commission. David Cameron won't be

there. The Tories quit the EPP group back in 2009. But some of the

biggest names in European politics, such as German chancellor Angela

Merkel, are in Ireland. As the candidates jostle for position, who

is in pole position to succeed Jose Manuel Barroso? We're joined now by

Alex Donohue of Ladbrokes to give us the latest odds. The Luxembourg

candidate leads the way, the German candidate is second, the Belgian

representative is at 5-1 and the French candidate, 8-1. Looking at

that, Juncker has the backing of Angela Merkel and her Christian

Democrat party, it is his to lose? Absolutely, 85% of bets have been

for him. We haven't taken a single bet on the two outsiders, we think

Juncker might be raising a point of the black stuff to celebrate in

Dublin. Two candidates are on the EPP and the other two candidates are

on the left. Do you think Juncker is going to take it? I hope so, use one

of my favourite Europeans. He gave the best quote about how the EU

operates saying we do things, it is competitive, nobody understands, so

we keep going. He is actually quite witty. That's OK, then!

And for the latest developments in Dublin, we're joined by Diarmaid

Fleming. Welcome to the programme. There is no British politician in

Dublin, what are they missing out on? What is the atmosphere like?

There are about 2000 delegates from parties actively in the EPP, and

also observers, notably from Ukraine and a whole host of journalists and

officials. The building behind me looks like a tilted barrel, there

might be a few tilted barrels after the celebrations tonight. It is a

huge little festival, if you like, but for those who agree with each

other. There is not going to be any particular debate. It is a sensitive

matter in a certain way. Ireland was in love with the EU in times gone

past when the money flowed one-way come about since the economic crash

and austerity, this is fairly sensitive to rain domestically. In a

way it is convenient for Ender Kelly, the Irish Prime Minister,

that the agenda has been dominated largely by Ukraine rather than

economic matters. Because otherwise it might not have gone down so well

in Ireland? Are people gripped? I would say people are underwhelmed by

the overwhelming number of politicians that have arrived here.

People are polite and there is a feeling that this is good for

commerce and trade, that you have similar people visiting and such a

big event can be staged. If you remember last December, when Ireland

exited the EU bailout, Jose Mourinho Barroso wanted to come to Ireland.

The government asked him not to come -- Jose-Maria well Barroso wanted to

come to the government here privately at the

conference itself, they are backslapping each other and they are

being congratulated by all of their European counterparts. In terms of

the public appetite here, people are pretty nonplussed. Thank you very

much. It is a big decision for European politics, they may not be

gripped in Ireland because of what is happening. David Cameron is on

the margins. Let's revisit that decision to pull out of the EPP, the

sort of centre-right grouping. He was wrong? He did that because Liam

Fox proposed it in the leadership bid. He stole that pledge from Fox

without really thinking. I think most which is people -- like most

British people, David Cameron could not care about what group he is in.

I think Cameron underestimated how much problems it would cause with

Germany, Angela Merkel has never forgiven him. If he had his time

again, you probably wouldn't do it, simply because it annoyed Angela

Merkel. It is so it's a terrible the average British voter, the way the

European Parliament works -- it is so Lisa Esat Eric

-- it is so esoteric. Do you think it would help him in terms of coming

back to his party, saying I am able to negotiate with the most important

person, Angela Merkel? Exactly. I think this is a brilliant example of

why playing to the gallery, saying we are conservatives and can do what

we want, we don't listen to Europe, it kicks a problem further down the

line which then really comes back to you. This is going to haunt him for

ages, that he hasn't got a seat at the table. Does it matter, who wins

this contest? Of course it matters to Europe. We have a massive problem

in Europe between a redistribution of money since the crash upwards.

Whether the guys on the left or the right... I think the European

Parliament is one of the most irrelevant constitutions in the

whole continent. I would be more worried about who wins the Swedish

election than this one. Now - Sir Tom Jones has dubbed him

"the singing politician" - 19-year-old Jermain Jackman has got

through the blind auditions and last week's battle round on the BBC One

talent show The Voice. But he's also a Labour Party activist who says he

wants to be Prime Minister. Here he is in full voice on the show.

# I am not going to leave you. # There is no way I will!

What is your name? Jermain Jackman. Do you sing a lot? In church, at

venues, for charities, I volunteer, I am into politics as well. Politics

as well? I am the youth coordinator for Hackney and the Labour Party.

UIs singing politician? -- you are a singing politician? There is a

headline that said I would be the first singing black run minister.

Grand ambitions! Well, I am just aiming high, trying to inspire the

young people that we have in this country. What was it like being on

the show? It was so surreal to have those four coaches to tell me, when

he wanted me on his team, it was out of this world. Being recognised on

the street, oh, my goodness! You will be recognised a lot more than I

ever and, quite rightly! So do you want to be a singer, then? Music and

politics are my passions, but music is my first love, and politics comes

on the side, inspiring young people, that is what I aim to do with my

music. What are the main platforms you would like to promote

politically? My policies, in a sense? Just motivation, getting

young people engaged in politics, making them believe that these goals

are achievable. Have you met David Cameron? Yes, I got a Spirit of

London award, and I was at Ten Downing Street, a big reception with

a couple of celebrities, politicians, I was there with my

mum, and David Cameron was saying hello to everyone. I said to him, I

guess I will take your job, then. I don't know if you heard me or not!

He smirked, so I guess he must have heard. Encouraging that simply wants

to be the first black Prime Minister. Anyone who wants to be

Prime Minister is a great thing! We need the talent in Westminster!

Watching at home, most of your viewers could probably do it better

than those guys. From a singing point of view, great, but

interesting that the political dimensions has come through. It is

so heartening to see someone on The Voice who cares about politics as

well, because I really love those talent shows, but they are often

quite kind of narrow, I need to succeed, I need to succeed for me,

and I think you are so great. Thank you very much. He looked surprised

when you mentioned politics. Like I said, it was so surreal to be in

front of a legend, Tom Jones, everybody calls me a grandad because

I take music from the 1960s and 70s. What are the issues that you and

your friends are concerned about growing up, I think young people in

this country are interested in politics. They see the political

issues, about connecting political issues with political education, and

getting that political education into schools, getting their mind

going about responsibilities and what it means to vote, just getting

them engaged. Are they interested in party politics? We are hugely

interested in politics, but when it comes to choosing a winner, you see

something in the Labour Party that you think is worth giving up your

time for. You don't get many young people into the Lib Dems, the

Tories, any political party. So I think Labour needs you more than the

other way round! Do politicians do enough or do much for young people?

I think they need to do much more, they need to talk to us. At the

moment, it feels like Westminster and party politics is up there, and

young people are there, we have seen DMA being cut, youth clubs being

shut, and young people are being pushed into a corner and ignored. --

EMA. It is about shining a light on young people, motivating them to

vote, make their voices heard. Are you unusual among your friends as

wanting to get actively involved in politics? I don't think so. I think

I am just one of those leaders. If you look at Martin Luther King, was

he unusual? He just wanted to make a change, stand for a change. I just

feel like I will be a face of change. Looking ahead to the

Scottish referendum, they are lowering the voting age, do you

think that could be a real possibility? I don't see why not. We

talk all the time about the problems of apathy and disengagement, and it

is a serious problem in Westminster. If young people don't vote... But

will they vote? You can't not offer a vote to younger people on the

basis that they might not use it. If you are worried about them using it,

make it as broad as possible. Do you agree? I do agree. I think there is

a case for it. Alex Salmond has found that young people are against

independence now, which is a surprise when! We were discussing

the revelations regarding the Stephen Lawrence case, Doreen

Lawrence talking about the case that there is no trust between police and

communities or some black and ethnic minority communities. How do you

feel as a young black man living in London? There needs to be a level of

trust with young people, or people in general with the police, and I

think that trust and confidence is slowly deteriorating. You think it

is deteriorating recently? It fluctuates, it fluctuates, and I

used to campaign for police communications. I used to get police

officers and young people to meet at the Town Hall, just to communicate

and get along with each other, have that common ground and start to

respect one another. But you think it is going downhill now? If you see

the Stephen Lawrence verdict yesterday, it is like, how are we

going to trust the police? That is why people are reluctant to report

things to the police. It is sickening to think that there is

still corruption in the Met Police, just a small minority of corrupt

police officers that are ruining the great work that the Metropolitan

Police do. It is interesting that you felt there was a relationship,

that things had got better in the past, and these events and

revelations of the very thing that can dent and damage that. It is

important that we get these out of the way and build towards the

future. I would do that where we can get police officers and young people

on the same ground, on the same playing ground, Common ground, where

they can communicate and get to know one another, and it is not a thing

were police are just looking at young people. I get that a lot, when

it is raining and I have my hood up. They look at me, there is no need

for it. It goes deeper than that, it goes in to stop and search, things

like that. Weiss what do they call them, bully bands? I grew up knowing

that is what they call them. Have you been stopped and searched? Loads

of friends have been stopped and searched. It's positive if it gets

knives and guns off the road, but it can damage the trust that young

people have. And there is a whole section that goes really deep. There

have been reports that Number Ten are not quite so keen on the idea.

She is making a plausible case for herself. It is really important,

because it is not just the inconvenience of being stopped and

searched, but the more likely you are to be stopped, the more likely

you are to be convicted, and it means the criminal justice system is

raked in a racist direction. It is important to do better than this,

and if anyone can, it might be Theresa May. She is a steely lady.

We on Daily Politics like a bit of show business ourselves, so we

thought we would have our own version of The Voice, the political

voice, that is. We are going to bring up a quote or policy from a

party, and all you have to do is guess which one said it. Easy! So

here is the first one. Which party said they will protect your jobs and

benefits? Shout out if you know the answer! Recently, it has to be

recently. Who said that recently? Anybody? UKIP, well done. It was not

as hard as you thought. He is a swot! He is, though. Don't worry,

you are putting in your justification first. Which party

warned that those who don't have the skills they need for a job will have

to take up training alongside their job search or lose their benefits?

It is probably Labour, isn't it? Well done, it is. It gets easier,

who wants to scrap national insurance contributions for under 21

is to make it easier for firms to take on younger workers? Jermain?

Let me say Lib Dems. No, conservatives! And finally, name the

party that wants to increase exit checks to improve border controls.

That was just in the programme. I don't have a clue! That was the Lib

Dems. Well done! Thank you for having me on the show, thank you. If

you feel you have missed out on the big political stories, it is our job

to bring the important and not so important to you, Adam Fleming with

the week in 60 seconds. Who knew World War III would start

with some Slavic chaps eyeballing each other moodily? The crisis in

Ukraine rumbled on as Russia effectively occupied the Crimea.

World leaders talked about it! Immigrants have taken our jobs, no,

they haven't. Or maybe they have a little bit. According to a report

that was repressed by the government back row until it wasn't. He has

been banging on about it for ages, but Eric Pickles was forced on this

very programme to confront his record on reintroducing weekly

rubbish collections. 70% of bins are still collected fortnightly. We have

only been in office a little while... And flipping MPs and peers

have been doing this again. Is that Dave? I'm just calling to

say that picture of you on the phone to Barack Obama is being mercilessly

spoofed online, bye! So what was supposed to be a very

serious phone call about Ukraine rather got ripped to pieces and

Twitter, the perils of Twitter. I think it is the perils of posting a

photograph of yourself on Twitter, it is just vanity. He paid the price

for his own ridiculous vanity. Do you agree? Politicians now, look,

George Osborne with his hot dog, it can backfire on you. Gubler the only

ones we remember are the ones with 1000 comments. They think they will

bypass the journalists but the public are even more scathing! Do

think we should CNN to those pictures? More, it is entertaining!

-- see an end. It leads to a more serious issue, Ukraine. Depending on

how you look at it, Crimea looks as if it has gone. Yes, it is difficult

to see how the referendum will not come up with the same outcome. It

looks as if Putin has correctly calculated that Europe couldn't do

anything and America has not yet got its energy policy sorted. So what

happens? There was a bit of a divide in the EU about how to deal with

it, the Eastern European countries would have liked to have seen a

tougher stance, as would Britain, but not against Angela Merkel. I

don't think anyone was prepared for how anti-European food and is.

Really? Yeah. There was always a sense that he was naturally allied

against them when there was something like Syria, but I think

the sheer hostility came as a slap in the face. Do think it says

something about his power in terms of his economic strength that he is

in the long weakening, or holding on to these former satellite states? I

think Russia is morphing into a sort of big gas company with an arm, and

it is just testing the limits. It wants the support of Crimea, it has

got one in Syria, it probably once one in Egypt, and it is testing to

see how much the West still cares about what it does. Putin has

prodded Europe and America, and with Europe the answer is not think,

America has been a bit more hawkish, sending fighters over. It

is interesting, because all the conversation around Sochi was they

could not afford it, what are they doing? And then suddenly, after

that, this huge show of military strength which shows that Putin, for

him, money is no object, we have everything. That is it for today.

Thank you to all of our guests, particularly do you do for being the

guests of the day. The one o'clock news is starting on BBC One, and

Andrew will be back at 11 o'clock on Sunday morning with the Sunday

Politics. Bye.