22/01/2016 Daily Politics

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

David Cameron is in Prague on the latest leg of his tour

to drum up support for his plans for EU reform.

The Prime Minister says he's not in a hurry,

despite speculation that's he's still aiming for a referendum

Meanwhile, the EU is facing bigger problems than Brexit as thousands

of migrants continue to arrive daily - can Europe's

They're no longer smoke-filled and now they let in women -

we'll be looking at the role of gentlemen's clubs

But just why would Germany be named the best country in the world?

All that in the next hour and with us for the first half

of the show is the journalist and broadcaster Cristina Odone.

the Prime Minister has ordered ministers to clamp down on lawyers

pursuing claims against veterans of the Iraq war.

He's asked the National Security Council to draw up options to end

what Number Ten called "spurious claims".

Lawyers are continuing to refer alleged abuse by soldiers

to the Iraq Historic Allegations Team, which has so far informed

about 280 UK veterans they are under investigation for alleged abuse.

Well, there are a number of steps I'm going to be examining.

First is making sure that people cannot claim

legal aid unless they are resident in the UK.

We're going to look at the measures we can take against companies that

We're also going to look at the conditional fee

arrangements, the so-called no-win, no fee arrangements that some

of these companies are entering into.

So we will take whatever steps are necessary to make sure

we shut down this industry that I think is treating people who have

served their country in such an appalling way.

Well we're joined now by Clive Baldwin.

He's the senior legal adviser from Human Rights Watch.

Welcome to the Daily Politics. As you've heard, David Cameron says he

will take whatever steps to curb this industry. Is he right to do it?

What the Prime Minister is wrong to do is to be making such statements

when enquiries are ongoing. There is an independent investigation going

on and the results of an independent investigation into the allegations

of crimes. For the Prime Minister to step in now and say that all the

allegations are spurious, talk about destroying an industry. He's not

saying all of them but he is saying he wants to stamp out spurious legal

claims against British troops who are serving their country. The broad

principle - is that something you would support? The place to decide

whether a claim is spurious or not is in the courts. But the industry,

he is saying, itself, should be looked at very carefully. Not just

individual firms are not just individual cases but he is calling

it an industry. When your mind that is wrong? That is wrong. What do you

think? I think places like human rights watch have done fantastic

work, monitoring what is going on out in Iraq and other places. The

British justice system, of course, whether it is the military or the

civilian branch, should be totally accountable, but there is beginning

to be a feeling that there are witchhunts going on, that lawyers

are taking advantage of, and that this whole no-win, no fee mentality

is about getting the this whole no-win, no fee mentality

matter what, rather than the pursuit of the truth, which is what we like

to think rule by law means. Do you want to respond to that? Rule by law

must be pursued of the truth but it is important to say these

allegations have that does come from the lawyers. They originally from

the British media, which investigated ten years ago, from the

Red Cross, who made reports that time saying they were very

concerned, from people like a senior legal adviser of the Armed Forces in

Iraq, who spoke at great length about this. And even public

enquiries and though a particular in Greek rejected some claims, it found

evidence of abuses going on. What about the point Cristina is making

about the core of some of these claims, these no-win, no fee

arrangements, that some people are being encouraged to come forward,

that the number of claims has grown exponentially over the last few

years, that that, in fact, is driving a different sort of momentum

to claims that are made? No-win, no feed... I'm not an expert on this

issue but as I understand it, it was partly brought in by the Labour

government when it started cutting back on legal aid, so it is not to

attack the messenger, it is more to say... And remember, this is a very

special case. The UK had invaded and occupied part of Iraq, so was

responsible for governing citizens. If those people made a claim, there

has to be some measure of accountability. If the reports RIA,

that legal aid is going to be clawed back, or they are not going to be

made available to people who aren't resident in the UK, that is going to

prevent people putting in claims at all. We obviously want everybody to

have access to justice but there is a sniffing sense here that no-win,

no fee is about the pursuit of money, rather than justice. But

soldiers shouldn't be above the law, should they? Absolutely not. But on

the other hand, I don't think lawyers should rule everything,

either. Are firms like Leigh Day and others just ambulance chasers? Leigh

Day and others have also been responsible for others. There was

recently the case of people from a Miao Miao in Kenya in the 1950s,

which took 15 years and in the end the British Government admit it on a

mass scale because of litigation that was brought. Is important to

say that the proper place for any allegations against lawyers is with

the lawyers regulatory authority, it is not for the Prime Minister to be

saying that while the allegation is going on. That does damage the

appearance of rule of law. What do you say to the defence secretary,

claiming there will be a fear of lawsuits which could then impede the

effectiveness of British troops? Well, anyone who actually has gone

above the law needs to fear those lawsuits. What you do need is a

proper system of independent, speedy investigation, which can clear the

innocent quickly and if anyone is guilty of war crimes, that they are

held accountable quickly. It all needs to be speeded up. Thank you.

Forget about Miss Saigon, The Phantom Of The Opera

or Les Miserables - there's a new musical opening

in London soon that is sure to break box office records,

So our question this morning is, what particular part

of the Labour leader's life is the musical concentrating on?

A - his alleged motorcycle holiday with Diane Abbott?

the correct answer later in the show.

So, speculation about when an EU referendum takes place rumbles on.

Plenty of people in Westminster are putting their money on a date

in late June, but that depends on the outcome of an EU

And David Cameron's hopes for a deal next month took a blow

as French Prime Minister Manuel Valls said that discussions

Last night David Cameron responded, saying that he was in no hurry

to hold the referendum if the deal on offer from the EU

Meanwhile, speculation continues about which cabinet ministers

might split from the Prime Minister

and campaign for an "out" vote regardless of the reforms.

Here's Eurosceptic Cabinet Minister Theresa Villiers

This is a crucial question and I'm proud of the fact that it's

a Conservative government that are giving the people

of the United Kingdom the choice to vote on our relationship

We all need to wait for the outcome of the referendum...

If nothing is brought back, you will be voting to get out?

Well, certainly no one is happy with the status quo.

The Prime Minister isn't, the government isn't

and, frankly, I think there are many people across this country

who would agree that the European Union needs

It needs to become more competitive, it needs to be fairer

Well, we don't know what he's going to come back with,

if anything, but if he comes back with nothing you will be

Well, the government will obviously take a view...

You. You.

We need to wait and see what the outcome of

the negotiation is and then the reality is that every man

and woman in this country has the choice.

Home Secretary Theresa May, who has so far refused to pick

a side, was yesterday seen lunching with leading Eurosceptic Liam Fox,

prompting rumours that she could still be persuaded to back

And there are plenty of other big public figures wading in this week.

First the Pope called for Britain to stay in, while this morning actor

Michael Caine told the Today programme he was backing Brexit.

You've now got in Europe a sort of government by proxy of everybody,

And I think unless there's some extremely

significant changes, we should get out.

It all means David Cameron has a lot of work to do

if he is going to secure a deal that he can take to the country

as evidence of why we should stay in Europe.

Today he leaves the World Economic Forum in Davos to travel to Prague.

Our correspondent Eleanor Garnier can tell us more.

So, Eleanor, another pit stop and David Cameron's tour of European

capitals. These visits just for show? Well, he's done so many of

them, hasn't he? There are only four weeks to go until the EU leaders are

going to be in Brussels and trying to find consensus on this and at the

moment, the deal is far from done, so he's got a lot of hard work to do

before mid-to-late February. The Czech Republic has been one of the

most outspoken countries over David Cameron's plans for that four-year

ban on EU migrants claiming in work benefits. The government there is

firmly opposed to anything that might undermine the principle of

freedom of movement and, of course, firmly opposed to anything that

might discriminate against its own citizens. Having said all that, it

does want the UK to stay in the use. It has said that it is willing to

find a solution but clearly they just haven't got to that point just

yet and that is why David Cameron is on his latest stop of his diplomatic

tour. And there's been a change of tone, hasn't there, in the last week

or so, from David Cameron and, it seems, George Osborne in terms of

timing of the renegotiation and then a referendum? I know they haven't

given explicitly a date but it did sound like it could happen this

year. Now he's in no hurry to get a deal. Is that an admission that his

timetable has now been thrown off course or is that part of his

expectation management? It is definitely expectation management.

If, like you and me, you've been playing very close attention to what

ministers have been saying last week or so, you might have concluded a

deal was very close to being done because George Osborne said just at

the end of last week the essential pieces of the deal were falling into

place. The Foreign Secretary, Philip Hammond, said recently that a June

referendum was quite possible. So we have this growing sense of momentum,

this optimism, and almost inevitability that a deal in

February would be done and I think David Cameron could have ended up

extremely red-faced if he'd got to the February summit and it didn't

deliver a deal. So we saw some very clear expectation management

yesterday and on top of that, we also heard, as you pointed out from

french fry minister Manuel Valls, saying more time was needed for

discussion and a deal at any cost would not be acceptable. -- French

Prime Minister. I think the tone has changed over the last week or so.

Thank you. We're joint by Robert Oxley from the Vote League campaign.

David Cameron told French TV last week that he feels deeply European

so that means is going to campaign to stay in. I do think it is quite

clear that the Prime Minister made his decision a long time ago that he

was going to campaign to stay in at all costs and I think the

renegotiation has effectively become an expectation management game. It's

become a very trivial exercise in renegotiating our relationship but

it isn't going to bring powers back, it isn't going to solve the problem

is that the Prime Minister said were absolutely key. The independent

George Osborne think tank have said that they will have not much affect

on immigration, so I think David Cameron is very much replicating

what Caine's movies. Is gone off to Europe, tried to do a smash and grab

but is ultimately coming home empty-handed. You thought about that

on the Michael came from. Christine, you are in favour of Britain

remaining in the EU. Do you think David Cameron is going to get a

thing substantial or is this a bit of a Charente? I think this is an

amazing courtship and it's not going to lead to any kind of seduction.

But I think that what has been very interesting is seeing the Prime

Minister himself, who seems to be in a rush not only to get the

referendum going but to force an election this summer. I think he is

now kicking the ball into the long grass. Do you actually think he's

doing that or do you think he's going to come back after that summit

and say, it's fine, I've got something, let's have a referendum

in June. I think we are looking at 2017. Do you agree with that? Do you

think it is being kicked into the long grass or do you think this is

part of the showmanship of hard work and struggle and he will come back

with something he feels he can sell? in it's there is a constant exercise

in expectation management. We have to be ready to go as soon as

possible. The government want to of the actual we want to keep a number

of the voices who quite clearly see the interference at brussels and who

are unhappy about it, but they are being kept it does not leave you

much time to start a campaign if it is June, or had the support of those

Eurosceptic cabinet until the re-1 of the things we have on our side is

we are building but you have to you have to that without being in the EU

Britain will be a smaller and less significant player on we are quite

clear, that to leave the EU, we will do a free-trade deal. We are your's

largest market and you do not have to be a political member of the EU

to trade with Europe, despite that goes back to my point about the

grassroots network. We are building that up, we have got street stalls,

we had 32 last weekend and we will have 150 in January have put out 2

million leaflets in the on the other side they do not have grassroots

support, are there risks to stay people will look at the recent

crisis of the euro? We are not part of the euro, but it impacted people

will think it could be a risk to I think Scotland if they and with in

the EU for trading we are stronger partners, I we are going to showing

up in Germany and as do you think people are getting more engaged

political arguments and referendums it is really only in the last few

have become engaged. Do you think people are getting

People like Tim and Cymru and other observers and commentators who are

really excited but I'd be the general public is -- Tim Montgomery.

Why do you think Theresa May was having lunch with Liam Fox? I think

they will be chatting about what is going on. They are being told to

keep the primers to's line. Do you thing she is discussing what she can

say and do? I can't speak for what Theresa May thinks about this issue.

I'm sure she will at the appropriate time. I think we are talking to the

Cabinet and we hope that Cabinet members will... Who are you talking

to? Tim Montgomery says there are five. What we do see at the moment

is that the campaign is slightly shaping up to be an establishment

coming out to back staying in the EU at all costs despite there being

very few changes, where as those at the grassroots network and people

who have seen the interference and cost of Brussels will be on the

other side. I'm quite happy if we are on the side of the people rather

than the establishment. Do you have a problem Cabinet ministers are only

allowed to talk in coded language until this negotiation is completed?

Those Cabinet who want to stay in the EU, they are allowed to but on

the other side they are being told to keep quiet until the maximum

about what is achievable. The Donald Tusk letter said David essentially

not much, but the fundamental change he Labour should get a free

vote the it is are you going to be on the phone I cannot confess to

Now, if I said I was off to a club after the show

think my Friday night had started early.

But here at Westminster that could also refer to London's

to men, and they've played a big role in shaping

Giles has been off to the smoking room to find out more.

It's worth reflecting that whilst a lot of modern

politics is done inside a 19th-century building,

Parliament, a lot of it is also done on our

So why have I come to the smoking room of the National Liberal Club

They don't, obviously, smoke in here any more.

Well, because clubs have always had, and to a certain extent still do,

There's the Great Fire of 1834, which not only devastates Parliament

but for the next 30 years, Parliament is a building site,

and you can't run the country from a building site,

so a lot of the functions that we now associate

with Parliament happen because MPs go in exile into their clubs

and they are literally running the country from London clubs.

So Parliament's been a building site.

Well, Parliament starts to commission club

architects, people like Charles Barry, who's best-known

for the Reform Club, for the Travellers Club,

and they asked for a new Parliamentary building

that's basically modelled on a London club,

because they've spent 30 years getting used to all the creature

comforts and all the conveniences of a London club.

So this is why the Parliamentary estate has smoking

And have clubs played any role politically

The nature of clubs, the nature of their being

designed with these small, conspiratorial alcoves,

and that element of plausible deniability, as a plotter's

paradise, is such that when these sorts of things have happened -

and I'm thinking for instance of party leadership

campaigns that have been plotted in clubs -

but the people involved tend to disclaim them very quickly.

The National Liberal Club clearly wears

its political colours but today, many members are interested,

However, there is a club that was, is and,

one imagines, always will be a political beast -

the dining room of Torydom on earth, you might say,

It was founded for that express purpose.

There is a very marked political element and there

is a political committee that organises a programme of speakers

and policy discussions and very usefully, as far as the Tory Party

is concerned, the political committee is responsible

for a political fund to help candidates in marginal

constituencies during general election campaigns.

It might not look it but clubs have modernised.

Women may not be on the walls but are full participating

And though the hours are more social than serious business,

the tradition of political discourse is still

They are absolutely beautiful, but are they not just relics of the

past? What is wrong with a relic? We should not Botox the London

landscape free of all wrinkles and tiny little, strange initiation

rites. Those wooden panelled rooms still smell of cigar smoke. They

will never get rid of that after all the years of smoking. They are

wonderful. But do you think there should be meant only clubs? As long

as we can have women only clubs. Have you been to any of these? And

one of the best dinners I ever had was at the Beefsteak Club. It was

the late Evelyn Waugh who was the guest and she invited me along and

we had to sit on a very long table with all the club members in a

completely democratic fashion. I was seated next to a minister and over

there was a barren something or other and there were actors, it was

fantastic. I am sure it was. Political deals were done in these

clubs, not so much today. It seems to be a place to socialise with

people who think the same sort of thing about politics, but not any

more. Do you think it is where politics is done? No, it is not, and

yet the influence peddlers peddle their wares and I wonder if maybe

David Cameron at the Carlton club overhears somebody topping, a

captain of industry may be says Goldman Sachs could come and spend

?1 million. Is that right? If you overhear something in a social

setting, why not? Now, world leaders have been

gathering in Davos in Switzerland this week, and what else

would they be discussing than whose According to a survey unveiled

at the gathering in the Alps, the answer is Germany, with the UK

coming in a respectable third. It's apparently based on a range

of factors including cultural influence, entrepreneurship

and economic influence. Well, we wanted to find out more,

and being ever fond of a cliche we sent the German journalist

John Jungclaussen off I am a German living in London and

have lived here for many years, but this week I am asking if I have made

the wrong choice. A poll has been published which says Germany is the

best country in the world. Britain only came in third.

Is Germany right to be voted the best country in the world,

No, it should be somewhere where it is sunny all

Isn't there are around 300 countries in the world?

I'll take German beer, maybe notches it up to the top ten.

Oh, yeah, they're better than German sausages.

But I've grown up with British sausages.

As a lorry driver you have travelled through a lot of countries, why is

Germany the best country in the world? Because it is very strict.

I am glad you've finished the sausage. Were you surprised that

Germany came top? At the sausage? No, Germany came top. No, actually.

Germany has been in the news for the last few years as a leading force in

the European question in the European crisis. Angela Merkel was

on time magazine. The migrant prices brought the country into the

headlines. It makes sense that people talk about Germany and read

about Germany more and talk about it more in everyday news. It is not a

surprise. Looking at the factors they included, cultural ones,

economic influence. Suddenly an economic influence and

entrepreneurship as well. Cultural factors, best in the world? Not only

cultural factors, but my Institute publishes its own prosperity index

and Germany comes 14 and Britain ranks 15th. But the reason Germany

does not do as well on our prosperity index is because you do

not have such an entrepreneurial spirit or start-ups. Start-ups are

more expensive in Germany than in Britain. We have got more doers and

shakers. The flip side to that is of course Germany relies on family run

company 's who make Germany the export champion because they produce

the goods that the Chinese want. Is it not about manufacturing? The

manufacturing prowess of Germany stands out, rather than the get up

and go? I agree although if you look at the

Volkswagen scandal about diesel emissions, Germany can also do

software. I tell you what I thought was very interesting, and I think

that this is really Angela Merkel's incredible gift to her people... I

think there is now the good German. The German people have now started

to feel really proud, even though they have all their headaches and

they are wondering, are we right in being so welcoming? But boy, oh,

boy, have they crafted a new national character and it is the

noble German, rather than the nutty German. Do you think they have been

able to deal with the past in a way that they can move on? Absolutely.

And when I compare it to what we are doing to ourselves with these road

stretches and hurt Celso drew because of a colonial empire, I

think Germany is the way to go. Every country needs an inspiring

figure at the top but it is also history. I think the Fuhrer has now

finally vanished in the mists of history. It is the next-generation.

The people who are about to get interested in politics now don't

even remember the fall of the wall, which is 25 years ago, so it really

is... Moving back. The news that Germany is now the best country in

the world - enough to draw you back home? Maybe for the summer holidays.

But you're staying put in Britain? I think I might stay here. Thank you

very much. It's time now to find out

the answer to our quiz. The question was, which particular

part of Jeremy Corbyn's life His alleged motorcycle holiday

through Eastern Europe? Please tell me that it is the ride

with Diane Abbott in Eastern Europe! Oh, I think it is! I think I've seen

the picture of the motorcycle. I love it! Does that mean you're going

to be getting tickets, Cristina? You bet. I'll invite both of you! I

would like to see the production of the manhole cover story, how that

could be staged. That will be the sequels, especially for you.

Coming up in a moment, it's our regular look at what's been

For now it's time to say goodbye to Cristina Odone.

For the next half an hour, we're going to be focusing on Europe.

We'll be discussing the migrant crisis still gripping the EU

and the fraught relationship between Brussels and the new

First, though, here's Ellie Price with our guide to the latest

In the week the World Economic Forum named Germany as the best country

in the world to live in, the Chancellor, Angela Merkel,

faced more pressure over immigration policy.

The EU lifted sanctions on Iran after the International Atomic

Energy Agency certified it had restricted its sensitive nuclear

Multilateral and national economic and financial

sanctions related to Iran's nuclear programme are lifted.

The EU steel industry cannot rely on public funds

to survive, says the Competition Commissioner, while not ruling out

further anti-dumping measures aimed at China.

The French president Francois Hollande set out to ?2

billion job creation plan in an attempt to lift France out

of what he called a state of economic and social emergency.

The EU criminal database is to include non-EU

citizens in an attempt to reduce the risk of another

And in the UK, 10 million homes received a pro-Europe campaign

Leave campaigners kindly offered to return

And with us for the next 30 minutes, I've been joined

by the Conservative MEP Timothy Kirkhope and the UKIP MEP

Let's talk first about one of those stories mentioned there,

and that's campaigning beginning to heat up ahead of Britain's

How is looking to you now? The Prime Minister is in no hurry. Manuel

Valls says there is still a lot of work to do. I think there is a lot

of work to do but I think the Prime Minister has made a lot of progress.

I'm talking to people in Europe every day and the feedback I'm

getting is very positive. On which areas? Particularly in relation to

the question of freedom of movement. That is a tricky one and that has to

be sorted out and I think he is making progress in his discussions.

Equally well on the question of the terms, like ever closer union. I

think that is making progress in getting the right kind of terms and

the right kind of agreements. Which way will you vote? I will see what

the Prime Minister comes back with. If he can give us a positive

outcome, and I'm pretty confident, more confident than I was, I will

support him and I will support remaining in the EU. As it stands

now, you would vote out? I wouldn't vote out. I will wait to see what

the terms are but I'm very positive in my view. It is not just what

Britain can get out of this deal, it is what happens from then on. If the

other countries in Europe are going to take part in the process the

prime ministers negotiating, that's got to be good news for Europe as

well as for ourselves. If people like Timothy Kirkhope have been

persuaded by this negotiation process, you're not going to see

many Conservatives like him voting for Brexit. Sitting on the fence is

bad for your help. I remember asking you last year why David Cameron

isn't actually negotiating fundamental free movement and you

said it was silly. We are hearing lots of Conservatives saying one

thing at home and going into the European Parliament and saying a

different thing. He is not calling for free movement to be reformed or

ending the rights of people who have been attracted by this migrant

crisis to come to the UK. The ?20 billion we give to the EU every

year, nothing about stopping that. There is no change. It is just

shadow-boxing. Do we think it is owing to be in June? Sooner the

better. Sooner the better but Tim is wrong about something he says. Do

you know how it take to get a passport in Germany? Eight years.

Ten years in Italy. Five years here. You just don't know your facts. That

hasn't stopped the mass immigration... We are going to talk

about immigration in just a moment so you can hold your fire.

The EU is in the grip of a migrant crisis and it's not

This week the International Monetary Fund predicted that 1.3 million

migrants could arrive in Europe every year.

French Prime Minister Manuel Valls has warned that Europe's migration

crisis poses a direct threat to the future of the EU.

And there's evidence that Schengen, that's the EU's passport-free travel

zone, of which the UK isn't a member, is already unravelling

as member states reintroduce border controls to try to stem the flow

of people fleeing conflict zones in the Middle East and elsewhere.

In August last year Hungary built a fence along the border

with non-Schengen country Serbia, blocking a railway line used

In September, Austrian authorities imposed border controls at the main

Later that month, the German government imposed border

The next day, Slovakia placed 220 police officers along its borders

And the Netherlands temporarily reinstated border

In October, Hungary built a razor-wire fence along

And at the beginning of this year, Sweden introduced checks

on the Oresund bridge, which links the country with Denmark.

While Denmark imposed border controls with Germany.

We are joined by a Labour MEP and my other guests are still here. Showing

is dead, isn't it? It is in deep trouble and Manuel Valls was

absolutely right to say that this is an existential crisis and is a deep

crisis. The problem with what he's saying is that he is a Prime

Minister of a big country and it is only the big countries that have the

assets to do something about it. When he says it's the EU, the EU has

limited assets to do anything, institutions, that is. They are

minimal assets. It is not a big agency but a bunch of civilians

doing a job and minimal budgets. It is the big countries that can do

something. Whatever your view on the migration crisis, whether you think

Germany was a pull factor, whether you generous about the migration

crisis, in the end, to deal with this, to have a tough external

border, for example the border agency, to have relocation, whatever

your view it is the countries like France, the big countries, who will

have to do something now to create integrity on our external border and

to create an organised and compassionate response. There is no

other way out of this. Even if Germany had not done what it has

done, we would have had a global crisis. Would it have been on this

scale? Let me tell you the reason why. 85 the centre of referees in

Turkey are living outside camps. Even if Turkey was helping us now,

they would not be able to control the situation. Would quotas have

been a more efficient way of working through this migration crisis? Lets,

for argument's sake, say we would still have had large numbers of

people coming from the Middle East and parts of North Africa... Quotas

would have meant there would have been regulated system, that each

country in the EU would have taken a proportionate number of migrants and

then both of the Dublin agreement, where refugees have to seek asylum

in the country they arrive in, and Schengen would have continued to

function. The key point is the renegotiation of Dublin, of the

agreement, but retaining the basic principles we seem to have lost. I

don't know whether Claude agrees with Yvette Cooper's remarks that

Schengen should be disbanded but all I'm saying is that I don't think so.

I think the key thing is to get the nuts and bolts right. The nuts and

bolts and the principles applying to people who arrive at the external

borders of the EU. We are not part of Schengen but the external borders

are important to us. Can Greece and Italy coach with those numbers? They

will need more resources and that is part of what we would propose. They

need help but once they have had help, there should be no question

about maintaining that principle that the first safe country that

people arrive that has to be the country that processes applications,

otherwise it becomes chaotic and that is what has been going on, I'm

afraid, with a lack of resolve by some countries. Do you agree with

that principle that the Dublin convention should stay put and

should be reinforced? You should claim asylum in the first safe place

you get to. If your houses on fire, you don't go looking down the

street, you go to the first has to call the emergency services. Is that

practical when you have Greece with people arriving in numbers they

have? The German chancellor said, come come all. These countries...

Germany should pay up. Do you agree with Yvette Cooper that Schengen

should be dismantled? That her view. If you dismantle it, you need

something in its place. There is broad agreement about Dublin because

the commission is now consulting about scrapping Dublin and replacing

it with Dublin four. There is broad agreement because it is natural to

claim in the first country you arrive in. If you take that away,

you need to replace it with something pretty sensible. At the

moment, the commission are not coming up with that. And Schengen,

what Yvette Cooper is saying is that it is now de facto dying but these

freedoms are at the heart of Europe and they matter and there is no

point in her saying it is dead without saying what we replace it

with. Without Schengen, is that the beginning of the end of the EU,

which is what Manuel Valls said? No, I disagree entirely about that. That

is what Tim wants. The point about Schengen is it has always had within

it the ability to reintroduce borders when there has been pressure

or an emergency. That is what some countries are doing. The key point,

we come back to it, the nuts and bolts. We are all feeding our ideas

for the new Dublin agreement. That is coming in until March so I'm

surprised that there is so much speculation about saying what Dublin

is going to be stop it isn't decided at all and I'm convinced that that

basic principle of people being dealt with at the first safe country

will be maintained and that is the key to it all. But even if Germany

and an Le Merkle hadn't said refugees, you are all welcome, would

we be in a totally different situation? -- Angela Merkel. There

has been movement across different European states will border controls

to be reinstated but there is a borders crisis in the European

Union, there was a crisis of free movement and I'm still waiting to

hear why David Cameron will not let sheet free movement. Why is heating

with benefits? You called renegotiating free movement stupid.

It is a basic principle which assists us in normal circumstances

through our trade and our exchange of services and skills. It is vital

for the British interests that we have freedom of movement. But should

it be suspended while this migration crisis is going on? There will be

many people who say, once these migrants are within Schengen, and I

don't know how many years it takes for migrants or refugees to gain

some sort of citizenship, they are free to move anywhere else. Refugees

do not have freedom of movement. Please remember that. All these

refugees that Ukip are frightening us about, the scaremongering

nonsense are that is not the same thing. They cannot have free

movement now, the refugees, so that is not an issue. Do you think Manuel

Valls has inflamed the situation with what he's said, because

inaccuracies about the status of refugees and migrants and who can

actually move, not only within Schengen but beyond, then starts to

get into the media narrative? He is in my party and I will see, yes he

has. There is no point in stating a problem and not saying what the

solution is. On Monday we have an Amsterdam council. You should be

sending ministers there to deal with the solution. This was an example

where refugees at the moment have a certain status, they don't have

immediate free movement. What the member states with the assets and

resources need to do with the problem we currently have is get to

work and sort out what we do about the relocation and the external

border because that is not going to go away. The other issues - Dublin,

Schengen - get some settlement on this. Irrespective of what we think

about what Germany did or did not do because we have a problem right now.

The big countries need to stop saying what the accidental problem

is. And start coming up with solutions.

Relations between the EU and Poland, the sixth largest economy

in the union, have soured over controversial media

and judicial reforms introduced by the new government in Warsaw.

The Eurosceptic Law and Justice Party swept to power

And this week the Polish Prime Minister was called to Strasbourg

to explain herself to MEPs at their monthly plenary meeting.

What could possibly make you think Poland's new Prime Minister doesn't

Prime Minister, would you like the EU...

Would you like the EU to butt out, Prime Minister?

In Poland, there have been protests because the government's sacked

loads of staff from the state broadcaster and it's appointed

a load of sympathetic new judges to the constitutional courts.

The European Commission's now investigating, using new powers

to check that member states are upholding the rule of law.

Let me show you just how heated this whole

Look at the front cover of this Polish news magazine,

which shows various senior figures from the EU,

like the president of the parliament Martin Schulz and Chancellor Merkel

In the Strasbourg chamber, Beata Szydlo used history to make

TRANSLATION: Poland's history has been a troubled history.

Our fathers and grandfathers gave them blood for freedom,

for us to be part of a united Europe, but they also spilt blood

for the freedom of other European nations.

to speak our own opinions, to fight for the right

We achieved that and we are not going to have that taken away.

Her main tormentor was the leader of the liberal group,

Guy Verhofstadt, who raised the spectre of Vladimir Putin.

The inconvenient truth here is that Mr Putin doesn't

He wants to destroy European unity and what's happening

While the man from the Commission tried to sound calm.

All members of the European Union have

signed, of their own free will, and ratified by their national

parliaments, European treaties, thus entering into obligations

as far as maintaining the rule of law is concerned.

But what about law and justice's parliamentary allies,

It is quite strange that they choose this

For example, when countries broke the stability and growth pact,

When countries like Greece do not play their role in defending

the external borders of the Schengen under the agreements they signed,

they don't come in, but suddenly you have more

Eurosceptic government and they decide to use this procedure.

For supporters of the Polish government

outside, some who'd travelled by bus for 16 hours for this,

it's a question of where power lies - with the US institutions

or with the individual member states.

If the Commission rules the Polish Prime

Minister's acting undemocratically, she faces the prospect

of losing her right to vote at future summits.

Oh, and she still wouldn't answer my questions -

Prime Minister, did you have a good trip to Strasbourg?

Well done for trying, Adam. Doesn't the EU have a right to investigate

and look at what is going on in Poland? It does, it can have its say

like any democratic chamber, but there is something untoward about

dragging an elected Prime Minister to the parliament and put them on

the naughty step and say, do not do this. The European Union has had its

troubles with democracy. It has asked companies to vote again. Maybe

it should get its house in order. All EU member states have signed up

to the idea that the commission can investigate whether countries are

upholding the rule of law and the Law And Justice Party in Poland are

threatening that. Does the EU have a right to do what it is doing? The

commission has a right to investigate any allegations about

treaties. You support it? No, what I say is Poland is one of the most

lively democracies now and since it through of the Soviet Union and it

has developed its politics in a lively way. The last party in power

did not like the new party getting a majority and ever since then they

have been trying to cause problems. I do not know what the answer is,

all I know is the Polish government I do not know what the answer is,

have very good reasons for doing what they have been doing and I

think the commission should investigate, but the European

Parliament, which is taken upon itself all these clever

investigations based on a political approach, I think that is not the

right forum. The reports are that the Law And

Justice Party has replaced judges and executives and broadcasters to

restore values. Is that I worry? That is up to Poland. No one else

has a mandate to interfere. If the Polish people do not like it, they

will vote. But it stuffed the court with its own appointees. Someone is

saying they are trying to read the balance because the media and the

courts were packed with people from the previous government. There is

nothing wrong with that? I watched the debate and many of my colleagues

feel the commission has a role in this, as it did with Hungary in

addressing alleged breaches, we can do it and it is there, but it does

backfire when you have this enormous theatre. She got the last word. She

put her hand up and said, Mr President, can I have the last word

for the sake of Poland and my nation? Timmermann 's made a great

play for the treaties and the rule of law and these breaches are of

concern... Alleged breaches. Alleged breaches. She ended up looking like

the heroine, they ended up looking like the bad days. Does it make you

feel queasy? It is probably not the way to do it to happen this court of

public opinion where you target the country. When they got Alexis

Tsipras it was like a show trial. They were waiting to take a swing at

him. They all get on their high horse. Does it have the desired

effect? It has the opposite effect. She left happily and she came

willingly. She was treated with respect. The arguments were

powerful, you sign up to these things. It was not a deviation from

the law. She volunteered to come. That is the point. And then we had

then might as well. The problem with all of this is you have many laws

which could be breaching treaties, so we have to get away from the

commission examining this and the theatre where it backfires. What

happens now? The commission investigates. Meanwhile, the

parliament will be going around making allegations with certain

political groups about Poland, it is on their agenda. Poland will not be

able to change things in the meantime? No, the European Union

will complain and moan about it, but then they will find some other

bogeyman. Now it's time for the latest

in our series Meet the Neighbours. Today we're looking at one

of the newer EU members states, Here's Adam again, and he's been

sizing up the Romanian The Ceausescus, the husband and wife

dictator duo who ruled Romania Now it is the country's parliament,

the biggest in the world apparently, They rolled out the red

carpet for me after Romanian MPs gave us

permission to film. The first thing you notice

is it is like a museum They got this idea of having these

beautiful lamps and once they were visiting France in the 70s

and they visited Versailles and Madam Ceausescu was impressed

and she thought it would be great And how about his and hers

matching staircases? The steps were smaller than usual

because the Ceausescus were unusually short and liked

to make a big entrance. Those curtains weigh

a tonne you know. In this place you can

walk for miles. All that marble makes

this the heaviest Parliament is not sitting

today so the corridors are pretty quiet, but Romania

went through a political A fire in a Bucharest nightclub

which claimed 16 lives led to the resignation

of the Prime Minister Talking of epic, check

out the ballroom. There is room for a symphony

orchestra and you can get a sports As a Romanian person how do

you feel about this building The first thing, we didn't need such

a building in those days. It was built with a great

effort, so that is what I need to appreciate myself,

the effort of the people who have worked with this building,

as there were more than a million people involved in

this grand project. I should say the urban myth is that

Ceausescu wanted this skylight to open so his helicopter

could land in here. If he couldn't escape that way,

there was always the spooky Is it true that down

here there is a nuclear bunker? Yes, it is true, not

only one but two of Sadly Top Gear beat us to it,

they staged a race down And here is our final stop,

the grand balcony with a specially lowered parapet so that Ceausescu

looked nice and tall when he addressed

the Romanian people Of course he never did that

because his regime collapsed before this massive

building could be finished. That was Adam. That building is

enormous. Do we underestimate how bad the histories of some of these

newer members of the EU have been? How difficult it has been for them

to come into a club where there are countries like Britain, France and

Germany. But the interesting thing is to see them recreating their

history. I have noticed that. People talk about the EU becoming a single

block, but as long as you have got countries like Romania, Poland and

Czechoslovakia coming in, throwing of Russian history and creating a

real history of their own, a pride in their country, that is a good

safeguard. Is it realistic to have countries that are so wide apart

where the disparity seems to be so huge, not just in economic terms,

but in cultural terms? I cannot imagine the horrors of living under

communism will stop anything we have got now is better than what they

went through. If the people want in these countries to join the euro,

that is for them, it is for the people to decide. Variety is a good

and positive thing about the EU. That is all we have got time for.

From all of us here, goodbye. Celebrate a country

4,000 years in the making. Let your New Year start with a bang

and visit an explosive new China.