08/02/2016 Daily Politics


08/02/2016

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LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics

:00:37.:00:39.

Downing Street warns that the jungle migrant camp could move to England

:00:40.:00:42.

if we leave the EU - but are voters being scared

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The Prime Minister unveils plans for wholesale reform of prisons

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and slams their "scandalous failure" - but after almost six years

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in power, who's to blame for that failure?

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From party chairman to humble backbencher -

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but was Grant Shapps just the fall guy for a scandal

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And can political parties stop Google making unhelpful

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All that in the next hour on this Chinese New Year's Day.

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And with us, as we enter the year of the monkey,

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the former Conservative Party chairman, Grant Shapps -

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he was born in a year of the monkey - and the Shadow Defence Minister,

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Toby Perkins, who was born in the year of the dog.

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First this morning, could the jungle migrant camp move to southern

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That's the warning we're told David Cameron will deliver,

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as he tries to concentrate minds on the possible national

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The migrant camp in Calais known as the jungle is home to several

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thousand migrants hoping to reach the UK.

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But with UK border guards posted at French ports,

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including Calais, working with the support of French police,

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they have found it increasingly difficult to cross the channel.

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David Cameron's arguing that the agreement with France that

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allows British border guards to be posted on the French side

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of the channel could be imperilled if we left the EU.

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Let's talk to our assistant political editor, James Landale.

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James, those commons will raise the temperature on the debate over

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whether we remain in the EU are not? They are. They are timed to be part

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of that debate. There was a deal in 2003 that the UK and French would

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stick border guards on each other's territory. The aim was to deter

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asylum seekers from coming to northern France. It has failed. The

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French Interior Minister is on record as saying he would like to

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change this arrangement. The Prime Minister has spoken before about

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this but he is now allowing this to be put out there that he thinks

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there is genuinely a risk to this bilateral deal. That is if Britain

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were to leave the EU. That is the claim. That is what is being backed

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up by ex-British border chiefs on the radio this morning. However,

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those campaigning to take Britain out of the European Union say this

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is pretty rubbish scaremongering by the Prime Minister. That he has no

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evidence this is what the French will do. And actually the cause of

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the problem in Calais is that the EU is not good enough at dealing with

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immigration issues. It is a hot debate. Is it also part of David

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Cameron's recognition that his four baskets are hardly going to set this

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debate on fire, or even relates to the voting public, while talking on

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big issues like security will? The Prime Minister will say he has

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always made the security argument. It was part of his big speech last

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autumn at Chatham House, where he made the argument of you leave the

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European Union there is a threat to national security, a claim

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challenged by the other side. What is really interesting and what is a

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risk for him, is that if he is seen to be taking the remaining arguments

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down the route of what we now call Project Fear, a bit of jargon that

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grew up during the Independence Referendum in Scotland, this idea

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that his argument is based on a warning of the negative consequences

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if Britain leads the European Union, then there is a risk that the other

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side of his argument, namely the positive benefits about Britain

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being part of the European Union, that gets washed out. He gets

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accused of being a guy who just gets -- who just warns about the

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disasters that may happen. The trouble for the main camp is to try

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to balance that. -- the remain calm. It is a balance they will struggle

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to maintain. We're joined now by

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the Conservative MP, Do you share the Prime Minister's

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concerns? Has he got a valid point? No. I don't think he has. He is

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resorting to panic and scaremongering partly because

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Downing Street is in panic mode because it's so-called concessions

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are not holding water. The red card has proved to be a washed-up Lottery

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ticket, and the emergency brake on immigration has been driven by an EU

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backstreet -- back-seat driver. This is a bilateral treaty with France.

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Nothing to do with the EU. There is no reason to suppose that such

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treaties cannot continue whether we are in or outside the EU. What would

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the motivation be for the French? There is nothing in it for them.

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What would you say Grant Schapps to the claim that this is panic? I have

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no idea if that is true or not. I am not here to answer for them. I have

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always been a pretty Eurosceptic MP. I was a Eurosceptic minister. I

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hated having papers put in front of me with the option of not being able

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to do anything about it because it was decided by Europe. All of the

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arguments about Europe are absolutely fair and proper arguments

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to have. In the end people will have to decide on the fundamentals of

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whether they think this country will be more secure in or out of Europe.

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I think that is where the detail of this discussion is going to be

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imported. Do you think it will resonate? Is there a likelihood that

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if Britain pulls out of the EU, that those migrant camps in Calais would

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move to the south of England? It will resonate as an argument in

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terms of this being something people feel passionate about. If people

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like John Barrymore, do his conclusion, it will strengthen their

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side. People who believe in the prime -- Prime Minister's view...

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This is the issue today. Security issues are important. Do you believe

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the Prime Minister? Is this a real threat? If we pulled out would we

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see migrant camps on the south coast? It is another issue you have

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to weigh up. Will it sway people one where the other? I suspect the

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answer to that is it will sway those where the other? I suspect the

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against and those in favour. It is not the issue I will be deciding on.

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I will decide whether it is better for the country economically and

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politically. You say the facts are this is a bilateral agreement, and

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that is true. But I put to you that there is no

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that is true. But I put to you that French government to maintain that

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bilateral agreement French government to maintain that

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to pull out of the EU. There is nothing in it for them. It has not

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to pull out of the EU. There is worked for them. At the new Beast so

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sure the Prime Minister is wrong? worked for them. At the new Beast so

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how can you be so sure? It comes worked for them. At the new Beast so

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You can guarantee the sovereignty of your borders.

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You can guarantee the sovereignty of your immigration policy. Let France

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police your immigration policy. Let France

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guarantee the integrity of your borders, that is what this debate is

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about, it is about sovereignty. One other point, if I may. We must have

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a positive debate. Unfortunately we seem to be in Project Fear at the

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moment. An informed debate is a positive debate about the merits of

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the ins and outs of Europe. Do you agree with that, Toby Perkins, that

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actually negative messages like this are just going to turn people away?

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The truth is nobody can tell us what out looks like. That is the greatest

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difficulty John has. He says we would take control of our

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sovereignty. We would still consider asylum applications if we were

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outside of the EU. We will not consider them in Calais but when

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people arrive. The problem that the ad campaign has is they cannot tell

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us what they are voting for. Hold on a minute, you are confusing the

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issue. Asylum and immigration act two separate things. When it comes

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to asylum I am sure we will continue to be a tolerant nation. But when it

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comes to immigrants and economic migration, if we come out of the EU,

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we would restore our sovereignty, restore control of our borders and

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we could simply say no, like many other countries do across the world.

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Does this needs to be a positive campaign? Look at what happened

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during the Scottish referendum campaign. That again was all about

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negative messaging that made it difficult in the end for the in

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campaign? Ultimately Scotland decided to stay in. If you are

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arguing effectively for the status quo, inevitably part of your

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argument has to be, would we be worse off if we came out? On a whole

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raft of issues, like how we would trade with the rest of the EU and

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the rest of the world, if were not part of those negotiations, how we

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would police these regulations, the impact of jobs -- on jobs, pensions

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etc, if you cannot tell us what it is going to look like if you come

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out, why should we believe the Prime Minister would negotiate a better

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deal if we were out? If you look at the comments from the Interior

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Minister in France, he said the UK could expect countermeasures if it

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leaves. He is talking about countermeasures to do with border

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control. There you have it, from the horse's mouth. That is a veiled

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threat. If you pull out of the EU and you take control of your

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borders, you can maintain integrity of your borders. It comes back to

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the issue of sovereignty. If you control your borders, you can

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maintain the integrity of those borders. You want good neighbourly

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relations, you want bilateral agreements. One is not suggesting

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you close shop. The bottom line is you can say no. It is as simple as

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that. We do not have that ability at the moment because we have a lot of

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economic migration putting pressure on public services. Britain can

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police France's borders at the moment to stop that issue coming to

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Britain. That may be under threat. You cannot say one where other. The

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Prime Minister and the French Interior Minister have had the lobby

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with the Westminster journalists, and Downing Street says if Britain

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votes to pull out of the European Union, thousands could come to the

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UK overnight to claim asylum. What do you say to that? Is that not

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true? It may be true. We do not know what the numbers are. Those are

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claims by people who are trying to play Project Fear a little bit. The

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problem is, those asylum seekers, whoever they may be, will be judged

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on their individual merits. The bottom line is you would still have

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the integrity of your borders. And if these asylum applications do not

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pass muster, you could return them. At the moment would you vote to pull

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out? I'm waiting for the final agreement. What about now? You're

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undecided, clearly. I have always been a Eurosceptic minister. I found

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it difficult to be told by Europe what we should be doing. David

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Cameron has been repeatedly underestimated for the deals he has

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ended up getting in Europe. There are about 100 competencies the UK

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pulled out during the last five-year parliament, the first time that has

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ever happened. He has shown himself capable of getting these things in

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the past. We have not had all 27 countries agree to whatever the

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packages. We have not had the detail. To say, would I agree with

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the today, is not possible. You could be persuaded either way?

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Correct. On that basis, what would persuade you to stay in or vote out?

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I think it is the tone of the thing. If this is really a line in the sand

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where Europe gets that ever closer union is not for all of its members,

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and takes this referendum is being an important turning point in

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European destiny, I think it will have justified staying in. If it has

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not, then in fact we would be back to where we were in the previous

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referendum in 1975. Do you think he will toughen up this deal in the

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next few weeks? I don't quite see how. I don't know. It is speculation

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on my part. I don't know the answer. That is why I am so keen to see what

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happens. According to Lord Pearson,

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what animal did Margaret Thatcher An octopus, a slot, a cow or a

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snake? The Prime Minister will shortly be

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making a speech on prison reform in which he will criticise

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the "scandalous failure" of prisons. Describing his plans for the justice

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system in England and Wales, he says he believes 'prison reform

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should be a great progressive cause David Cameron will announce a pilot

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scheme of six new reform prisons, which will be given full autonomy

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over how they operate The Prime Minister wants prisoners

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to be viewed as "potential assets to be harnessed" rather

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than "liabilities to be managed". And he will promise to protect

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the ?130 million a year prison education budget and give more

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control over education It is also rumoured

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that the government may be planning to allow inmates near the end

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of their sentences out of jail His speech comes in the wake

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of a series of policy U-turns by Justice Secretary Michael Gove,

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who took over from Chris Grayling Gove has reversed his predecessor's

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plans to overhaul the legal aid system and lifted restrictions

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on the number of books He also cancelled a ?5.9 million

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contract to train Saudi prison service staff,

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and scrapped the criminal courts charge less than a year

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after it was introduced. We're joined now by former

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Chief Inspector of Prisons, Welcome to the show. David Cameron

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is talking today of a scandalous failure of our prisons, who is to

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blame for that? Well, it is cumulative because when I started

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inspecting 20 years ago, the prison system was in a terrible state, and

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I walked out of my first inspection of Holloway where I found that women

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were routinely change while in Labour. The seeds of the system were

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sown then because when I walked out of Holloway, I went to see the

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director-general of the prison service and asked if I could see the

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of women's prisons and he said there isn't one and there still is not.

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There isn't a director of any type of prison or prisoner except for the

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high security prisons, and that was put in after the escapes from

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Parkhurst and Whitemoor, under Michael Howard's regime. What did

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you think more recently of Michael Gove's predecessor in terms of

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dealing with the prison system? I thought he got it all wrong, he

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rushed a whole lot of reforms through without making them through,

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and he was particularly responsible for the reduction in staff by 33%

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which meant that there were not enough people to do anything with

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the prisoners. Do you agree? Those figures are pretty startling. The

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number of posts which were cut were 1375 when public sector prisons were

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closed, and some ?900 million were slashed on the budget. This falls

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into the category of a vast range of public services, my interest was in

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local councils at the time and what they were doing, and they were doing

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things better with fewer people, so I don't know how it has precisely

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impacted on things. Well, it has, very adversely. You have to make

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decisions when you govern and some of them are tough decisions to make,

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and they are not always the things you would like to do. Fortunately,

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six years on, you're getting to the point where by the end of this

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parliament we will be able to see services which will mean we have

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more choices. Was Chris Grayling writes to cut those

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more choices. Was Chris Grayling restrict the number of books to

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inmates, and to leave prisons which were overflowing?

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inmates, and to leave prisons which accurate. Overflowing and crowded,

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we were made accurate. Overflowing and crowded,

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which enables more places. There are many things which needs to happen.

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which enables more places. There are Most obviously, these prisons in

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very expensive places Most obviously, these prisons in

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a sample which do Most obviously, these prisons in

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there, which are big touring in nature, and could be sold to

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there, which are big touring in far better modern prison services,

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that would make sense in a is Shapps right about overcrowding in prisons

:19:29.:19:34.

and that that there are enough staff still to look after the number of

:19:35.:19:39.

prisoners? The grisly overcrowded and the Chief inspector described

:19:40.:19:43.

them as cases of violence, squalor and idleness which Michael Gove

:19:44.:19:48.

agreed with. There are not enough staff. 33% cuts means there are not

:19:49.:19:54.

enough people to do the work with prisoners. Michael Gove has

:19:55.:19:57.

enough people to do the work with acknowledged that and is trying to

:19:58.:20:01.

bring back more staff but one of the problems, and Shapps

:20:02.:20:06.

bring back more staff but one of the the big problems with those is that

:20:07.:20:10.

no staff the big problems with those is that

:20:11.:20:14.

prisons where they are working and they have

:20:15.:20:16.

prisons where they are working and Quite apart from the fact that those

:20:17.:20:21.

prisons are not really suitable for doing the work that is required in

:20:22.:20:27.

the 21st-century. Do you think Labour also has questions to ask,

:20:28.:20:32.

bearing in mind that Lord Ramsbottom said the

:20:33.:20:36.

bearing in mind that Lord Ramsbottom ago? You mentioned Michael Howard.

:20:37.:20:39.

We had ten years of ago? You mentioned Michael Howard.

:20:40.:20:44.

The truth is that we have seen in the last five years, 17 prisons

:20:45.:20:49.

The truth is that we have seen in Minister talking about the education

:20:50.:20:52.

budget prisoners told they can't go to lessons because there are not

:20:53.:20:57.

enough staff there. What the Prime Minister has said, the rhetoric, it

:20:58.:21:01.

is great but Willie back it up? The failure has happened over the last

:21:02.:21:04.

few years, and I have a positive suggestion. Do you agree with some

:21:05.:21:10.

of these things that David Cameron will say in terms of more autonomy?

:21:11.:21:14.

I am not sure that is the answer. I like the rhetoric but a positive

:21:15.:21:20.

suggestion, rather than Michael Gove reversing things that Chris Grayling

:21:21.:21:24.

did, if you just brought forward the Chris Grayling repeal, that

:21:25.:21:29.

everything Chris Grayling did, I think would be a better place. We

:21:30.:21:33.

haven't mentioned probation, he made a total mess of that stop what you

:21:34.:21:39.

say to that? I don't know the detail, I am sure there were some

:21:40.:21:42.

good things he was doing. One of them were starting this programme of

:21:43.:21:45.

getting rid of the old Victorian prisons and building more than once,

:21:46.:21:49.

I am sure that is a good idea. Let's look at some of the things

:21:50.:21:54.

suggested. Would you agree with more autonomy for prison officers to run

:21:55.:22:00.

the Rome prisons? -- run their own prisons. They need direction and

:22:01.:22:07.

they need somebody to lead how they are going to do it, and the trouble

:22:08.:22:11.

is that for years and years, the Home Office and then the Ministry of

:22:12.:22:16.

Justice have direct did the how, and that is the wrong way round. They

:22:17.:22:20.

have not said what. What I would want to see is two things. Prisons

:22:21.:22:29.

group regionally which is recognised by Lord Woolf after the riots in

:22:30.:22:33.

strange race in 1990 and included in the only white paper on prisons

:22:34.:22:38.

which was published by Kenneth Baker in 1991. -- Strangeways. Prisoners

:22:39.:22:43.

would not then leave their own home area and they would be responsible

:22:44.:22:48.

for their rehabilitation. Secondly, like every school, hospital or

:22:49.:22:52.

business, but somebody responsible and accountable for overseeing what

:22:53.:22:55.

happens to each type of prison and prisoner. Then you can give the

:22:56.:23:00.

governor 's responsibility for doing at the how, knowing that what is

:23:01.:23:04.

overlooked, and they have got somebody to whom they can turn to

:23:05.:23:11.

who is responsible and accountable. Broadly you support those two things

:23:12.:23:17.

but would you support the idea of government proposals to allow

:23:18.:23:20.

prisoners near the end of their sentences out of jail during the

:23:21.:23:27.

week? Certainly. These are sensible proposals, actually. Had he gone

:23:28.:23:32.

soft? The fact of the matter is that we have 85,000... 85,000 400. There

:23:33.:23:40.

were no awards for in car 's rating is much of your population as you

:23:41.:23:45.

can. In America the lock-up ten times as many people. You are five

:23:46.:23:48.

times more likely to be murdered in the USA than here. Said prison does

:23:49.:23:56.

not work? -- so. You one sensible policies to rehabilitate people in

:23:57.:24:03.

society. That could include weekends or early release, particularly with

:24:04.:24:07.

tagging. Is a way of easing overcrowding? People might say that

:24:08.:24:12.

releasing them early letting them out drawing the week, isn't that

:24:13.:24:16.

just to ease overcrowding rather than for some altruistic

:24:17.:24:23.

rehabilitation? It is not only that because some prisoners have been in

:24:24.:24:27.

for a long time and they need to be accustomed to life outside, and that

:24:28.:24:30.

is what the release of temporary licence is designed to do. There

:24:31.:24:36.

will be a lot of conservatives, and voters who think, this is a

:24:37.:24:40.

dangerous precedent to set and it is just to do with overcrowding. You

:24:41.:24:44.

have to get the balance right anyway had my way, I would probably reform

:24:45.:24:48.

things like early release. The assumption that when you get the

:24:49.:24:51.

sentence you only serve no more than half of its. I think that feels very

:24:52.:24:58.

dishonest to the public. I would rather the sentence was near enough

:24:59.:25:03.

what it said on the tin. There were other things to go for but you would

:25:04.:25:07.

have to reform the whole of the sentencing guidelines to get there

:25:08.:25:10.

but I am not against the idea that people should be rehabilitated into

:25:11.:25:13.

society because the rapist problem we have is the inability to

:25:14.:25:21.

readjust. -- the biggest problem. Under Chris Grayling, nothing has

:25:22.:25:24.

been done about rehabilitation. It is not my area of expertise. Where

:25:25.:25:29.

it hasn't worked, look at prisoners who come out of prison and then end

:25:30.:25:34.

up homeless. It is literally a revolving door. I wrote a report on

:25:35.:25:39.

that subject and it has to be a failure of the system. Did Labour

:25:40.:25:46.

lock-up to many people? People who should not be there? I think what is

:25:47.:25:52.

more important is that once people go into prison, have we got a plan,

:25:53.:25:56.

proper resources to ensure that there is a reasonable prospect that

:25:57.:25:59.

people come out better people than when they went in but Mark there

:26:00.:26:04.

were some positive moves made under the last government. When this

:26:05.:26:08.

government came in, there was a focus on spending cuts that these

:26:09.:26:16.

aims got forgotten. We up paying the penalty for that now. Argue. --

:26:17.:26:20.

thank you. "Homes for heroes" -

:26:21.:26:23.

originally coined after the first world war in a push for public

:26:24.:26:25.

housing for returning servicemen. Now our guest of the day -

:26:26.:26:27.

Grant Shapps - wants veterans of recent conflicts to be guaranteed

:26:28.:26:30.

homes when they leave the armed 100 years ago, Prime Minister David

:26:31.:26:33.

Lloyd George promised soldiers returning from the battlefields

:26:34.:26:36.

of Europe homes fit for heroes, and this led to

:26:37.:26:39.

the Housing Act 1919. Today when service personnel return

:26:40.:26:49.

from their service they may find themselves with difficulties

:26:50.:26:52.

through personal injury and may be suffering from traumatic stress

:26:53.:26:54.

disorder, or perhaps perfectly well in mind and body, they are still

:26:55.:26:56.

facing an uphill battle for them and their families

:26:57.:26:59.

to find decent homes. I am here in south

:27:00.:27:05.

London at Haig Housing. 270 different properties rented

:27:06.:27:07.

at charitable rates for returning This is exactly the kind

:27:08.:27:09.

of thing that we want to see through the foundation

:27:10.:27:16.

across the country. And this site is designated

:27:17.:27:28.

for new homes for our veterans. We want to see, through

:27:29.:27:39.

the foundation, lots of this around the country in order to make sure

:27:40.:27:42.

that we've got homes fit for heroes That's what I have been working

:27:43.:27:45.

on with my colleague Jake Berry. Tomorrow will see the launch

:27:46.:27:50.

of the Homes For Heroes foundation. We've teamed up with some

:27:51.:27:53.

of our most senior former military generals and officers

:27:54.:27:55.

like Lord Robertson and Lord We'll also be working

:27:56.:27:57.

with charities like Haig Housing, local authorities and developers

:27:58.:28:00.

to make sure we can put an end to the discrimination we have seen

:28:01.:28:03.

against serving and former members of our Armed Forces

:28:04.:28:06.

in the housing market. By 2019 we want to honour that

:28:07.:28:10.

vision of Lloyd George And so these brave men and women

:28:11.:28:13.

who had been out there fighting for our country will have the Homes

:28:14.:28:20.

For Heroes foundation fighting for them and their families to have

:28:21.:28:22.

really great homes to come back to. According to the Royal British

:28:23.:28:39.

Legion, only 1% of veterans identified access to housing is an

:28:40.:28:44.

issue. That issue refuse to homelessness rather than housing. --

:28:45.:28:48.

refers. Rough sleeping. If you look at the figures referring to the

:28:49.:28:51.

number of people who come home and are less likely to own their own

:28:52.:28:56.

home, a third less from the military, if you look at legislation

:28:57.:28:59.

that I introduced by statute guidelines, that means council have

:29:00.:29:05.

to follow it, we discovered in a Freedom Of Information request, that

:29:06.:29:07.

councils are not following it and will be more of that in the launch

:29:08.:29:13.

tomorrow. We found some big problems, not least when people come

:29:14.:29:16.

home and they have been injured, at the most serious end of the scale,

:29:17.:29:21.

they get money for adaptation of housing, but that does not happen in

:29:22.:29:25.

till they leave and that causes a problem because there was a gap

:29:26.:29:28.

between them leaving the service and getting the housing. There are

:29:29.:29:31.

policy improvements on the things we can do better to honour the armed

:29:32.:29:37.

services. The figures, this was about veterans identifying poor

:29:38.:29:39.

housing is an issue, not just homelessness or rough sleeping.

:29:40.:29:44.

Fewer than one in ten had experienced housing difficulties in

:29:45.:29:48.

the past year, with most related to housing or garden maintenance. Are

:29:49.:29:53.

you dealing with a real problem here? We certainly are and if you

:29:54.:30:02.

speak to organisations like Haig or people who look after the armed

:30:03.:30:07.

services, they will tell you there are a whole host of small policy

:30:08.:30:10.

changes that could be made to ensure we have the best housing that is fit

:30:11.:30:17.

for heroes, 100 years after Lloyd George's legislation. What we are

:30:18.:30:21.

going to do is look at international comparisons, find out what other

:30:22.:30:25.

countries are doing, the USA, Australia, Canada, and then try and

:30:26.:30:27.

adopt the best things here. Yeo

:30:28.:30:38.

former servicemen and women when allocating housing. What evidence

:30:39.:30:39.

have allocating housing. What evidence

:30:40.:30:47.

of the councils across the country and found that some are simply not

:30:48.:30:53.

following that. But to say they are biased, as they biased towards other

:30:54.:30:55.

groups? I biased, as they biased towards other

:30:56.:30:58.

biased. I have said the bias which biased, as they biased towards other

:30:59.:31:02.

sometimes prevents people from being biased, as they biased towards other

:31:03.:31:07.

of housing they deserve, needs to end. People have gone out and

:31:08.:31:10.

of housing they deserve, needs to for this country, returned

:31:11.:31:15.

of housing they deserve, needs to own area. One big problem when it

:31:16.:31:17.

comes to housing allocations is when they don't have that local

:31:18.:31:22.

connection. We need to sort that out. There is legislation. It is not

:31:23.:31:27.

working. That is why I'm interested in combating it. I

:31:28.:31:29.

working. That is why I'm interested legislation which I think is not

:31:30.:31:31.

working. Do you have sympathy for legislation which I think is not

:31:32.:31:39.

this campaign? I think the campaign is worthwhile. We have a

:31:40.:31:43.

homelessness crisis in the country. It has got much worse under this

:31:44.:31:45.

government. We are failing on It has got much worse under this

:31:46.:31:48.

health. That then spills over and leads to failure on homelessness,

:31:49.:31:54.

it comes to people coming out of the it comes to people coming out of the

:31:55.:32:00.

recognising an important issue. I am glad to support that.

:32:01.:32:04.

recognising an important issue. I am not like is to be seen as though it

:32:05.:32:07.

is purely about people coming out of the Armed Forces. We have a terrible

:32:08.:32:09.

record, this more generally. On that issue, why

:32:10.:32:16.

would you want to push the idea of them owning or buying their own

:32:17.:32:24.

homes rather than renting? I want to see renting, buying, social housing

:32:25.:32:28.

all the way across. I'm working with George Robertson, former Labour

:32:29.:32:33.

defence secretary, on this. All types of housing. You asked about

:32:34.:32:37.

purchasing housing. types of housing. You asked about

:32:38.:32:41.

served the way for a couple of years and have been working under the

:32:42.:32:45.

British forces Post Office address, your credit rating is not updated in

:32:46.:32:49.

the same way that it would be for you and me. The government has taken

:32:50.:32:53.

steps to try to address that. I have got evidence it is not working yet.

:32:54.:32:59.

The other end of the scale in social housing... It is across the piece.

:33:00.:33:04.

How does that fit with the Government policy to pay to stay in

:33:05.:33:09.

social housing? There has been condemnation that people

:33:10.:33:11.

social housing? There has been priced out of being able to pay rent

:33:12.:33:20.

levels that are above inflation. We can get into the ins and outs of

:33:21.:33:25.

social housing, if you like. One of the things I would say with regard

:33:26.:33:29.

to that is it is important we don't end up with situations where people

:33:30.:33:35.

have gone on to have completely changed life circumstances and have

:33:36.:33:38.

still essentially been able to receive the benefit. Do you think

:33:39.:33:42.

for people over ?40,000 that is a life changing circumstance? I am

:33:43.:33:51.

looking at the proposal very carefully.

:33:52.:33:57.

Now, a logjam in the House of Lords means there's no primary legislation

:33:58.:34:00.

being debated in the Commons this week.

:34:01.:34:01.

But there's plenty else going on as MPs wax their skis

:34:02.:34:04.

Tax credits are back in the news, with Labour pushing for an urgent

:34:05.:34:09.

question this afternoon on why some people could still lose out

:34:10.:34:11.

At a meeting of the PLP tonight, Emily Thornberry,

:34:12.:34:14.

the Shadow Defence Secretary, will update Labour MPs

:34:15.:34:19.

on the progress of her defence review - including the renewal,

:34:20.:34:21.

Unless a deal can be brokered with the Government

:34:22.:34:28.

on a new contract, on Wednesday morning, junior doctors will begin

:34:29.:34:32.

And if it goes ahead, the strike sure to feature

:34:33.:34:36.

at wednesday's PMQs, when David Cameron faces Labour

:34:37.:34:39.

leader Jeremy Corbyn across the despatch box.

:34:40.:34:42.

The NHS will remain in the news when its December figures

:34:43.:34:47.

are published on Thursday morning, with politicians and pundits keeping

:34:48.:34:51.

a close eye on how A waiting times fared in the winter months.

:34:52.:34:59.

in Hamburg for a banquet hosted by German Chancellor Angela Merkel,

:35:00.:35:02.

where he is expected to make a speech giving an idea

:35:03.:35:05.

of where the renegotiation plans stand.

:35:06.:35:12.

We're joined now by Jason Beattie of the Mirror and Harry Cole

:35:13.:35:15.

Let's talk about the comments by the Prime Minister about the jungle.

:35:16.:35:31.

Izzy scaremongering voters? If you are on the side of wanting to leave

:35:32.:35:35.

the EU, yes, of course he is scaremongering. There is a real

:35:36.:35:40.

anger today in Cabinet circles that there are those... The Prime

:35:41.:35:49.

Minister promised the in campaign wouldn't be doing any campaigning

:35:50.:35:52.

until the deal is done. Lo and behold he has, crowds today. How

:35:53.:35:58.

long can this internal Cabinet truce last? If the Prime Minister himself

:35:59.:36:04.

is out there all but campaigning for Britain to stay in, planting these

:36:05.:36:08.

stories in the media, you have to expect someone on the outside to

:36:09.:36:14.

start kicking back. Jason Beattie, any word about who may be breaking

:36:15.:36:19.

ranks, or assigns that the line is going to crumble? Michael Gove and

:36:20.:36:27.

Boris Johnson are the two over whom there are question marks. Boris

:36:28.:36:35.

Johnson is sceptical about the deal. Michael Gove, we don't know. The

:36:36.:36:39.

Prime Minister making an announcement on prisons today. Is

:36:40.:36:45.

that a sop to the Justice secretary to try to win him over? What about

:36:46.:36:53.

you Harry, any names? Boris was overheard in the House of Commons

:36:54.:36:57.

telling Bernard Jenkin is that he has never been in favour of being

:36:58.:37:05.

out. My hunch is that Michael Gove is erring towards the ad campaign

:37:06.:37:09.

and will give a currently rudderless and leaderless organisation a very

:37:10.:37:16.

articulate leader. He is not popular in the teaching profession, despite

:37:17.:37:19.

the apparent success of his education reforms, and he is often

:37:20.:37:27.

seen as a bogeyman for the left. Would the benefits outweigh the

:37:28.:37:31.

negatives? That is up to the out campaign. At the moment the ad

:37:32.:37:35.

campaign have not got a figure head, or a big personality, because there

:37:36.:37:41.

are so many at the moment. Do you think Michael Gove would be welcome

:37:42.:37:45.

at the head? They need somebody with some clout. The problem at the

:37:46.:37:50.

moment is the Eurosceptics, the ones we know about, are not particularly

:37:51.:37:55.

appetising or brilliant figures, that and they could do with somebody

:37:56.:37:58.

who has more charm and could reach out better to the large number of

:37:59.:38:02.

undecided voters on this issue. They do look a bit like the mad, bad and

:38:03.:38:10.

weird at the moment. Jason, let's move on to the issue of Trident. Has

:38:11.:38:15.

that decision gone away to some extent? A decisive vote in the House

:38:16.:38:25.

of Commons does not look as though it is on the cards. This has not

:38:26.:38:30.

gone away. I feel almost sorry for Emily Thornberry. She has picked up

:38:31.:38:40.

this poisoned chalice. Jeremy Corbyn, who is against Trident, and

:38:41.:38:44.

a large number of Labour MPs who say this is party policy. They want to

:38:45.:38:49.

keep Trident. The problem you have got here is it is a division right

:38:50.:38:54.

down to the grassroots. There are a lot of Labour members, particularly

:38:55.:39:01.

those in working class seats, and the unions. How Emily Thornberry

:39:02.:39:05.

stitches these sites together, I have no idea. Is this why this

:39:06.:39:12.

decision has been delayed on the Government side because they want to

:39:13.:39:16.

wait to see what Labour doors in the end? I would never be one to suggest

:39:17.:39:22.

the Government would use national so it is a political pawn. But you can

:39:23.:39:28.

see why that impression has been made. Most interestingly on the

:39:29.:39:33.

Labour side, you have the first hint of a possible split. You have MPs

:39:34.:39:38.

like Stephen Kinnock actually saying they would stand on a platform on a

:39:39.:39:42.

pro-strident stance at the next election, even if the official

:39:43.:39:46.

Labour Party policy was to oppose it. Four years outside of an

:39:47.:39:53.

election you have got MPs promising to oppose their own party. It does

:39:54.:39:56.

not look good. Thank you. Toby Perkins, let's

:39:57.:40:01.

continue that. Would you do what Stephen Kinnock said he would do,

:40:02.:40:09.

and stand on April Trident ticket at the next election? I was very

:40:10.:40:12.

pleased with the policy we had going into the last general election. I

:40:13.:40:17.

agreed to serve in the shadow defence team. Emily Beatty and

:40:18.:40:20.

Secretary of State. She said he would go into the review with an

:40:21.:40:26.

open mind. I am, too. Is there something that could change your

:40:27.:40:30.

mind? Well, I don't know about that. I would not say I've heard any

:40:31.:40:37.

evidence that convinces me to go down the unilateral path. Emily has

:40:38.:40:39.

promised to put the evidence together. Hand on heart, is there

:40:40.:40:44.

really is something that could change your mind from your view

:40:45.:40:51.

toward strident? I have always been a believer in multilateral

:40:52.:40:54.

disarmament. I think we have a pretty good track record as a party

:40:55.:41:01.

and a country in terms of leading global multilateral disarmament. We

:41:02.:41:04.

are at an early stage of this review. Emily is gone to separate

:41:05.:41:13.

the basis of that today. There is a chance you could change your mind?

:41:14.:41:22.

It is not inconceivable. I have not heard evidence that would take me

:41:23.:41:29.

down that direction so far. You think Emily Thornberry could come

:41:30.:41:33.

out of this review as somebody who would be in favour of renewing

:41:34.:41:37.

Trident? I think she is listening to all the evidence and she is going

:41:38.:41:42.

into it with an open mind. She is considering the global situation.

:41:43.:41:46.

She will go to Nato and speak to our Nato partners, people from across

:41:47.:41:50.

the party, reaching a conclusion. I do not think it is wise at the start

:41:51.:41:54.

of the review to say, this is what we are going to find at the end of

:41:55.:41:58.

it. Would you be happy to give Labour Party members a more decisive

:41:59.:42:04.

say? I am somebody who over the years has questioned what is the

:42:05.:42:09.

right thing to do? Since I have been in this post I have been over and

:42:10.:42:14.

spoken to colleagues in Nato. I have heard about the extent to which the

:42:15.:42:20.

global community, people committed to multilateral disarmament, their

:42:21.:42:22.

beliefs on what our position should be. And I have to say that so far

:42:23.:42:33.

that evidence... Should they have a veto, or a vote? I don't think so.

:42:34.:42:39.

But ultimately as a party, we go through the national policy Forum,

:42:40.:42:43.

people look at these things in great detail and the party conference gets

:42:44.:42:47.

a vote. That will always be the way we make our policy. That was how we

:42:48.:42:52.

make policy leading up to the last general election. The unions are not

:42:53.:42:56.

unhappy -- not happy about this review. They think it leads to

:42:57.:43:01.

uncertainty and puts jobs at risk, even those who are happy that Jeremy

:43:02.:43:05.

Corbyn is the leader of the party. Do you accept it is dividing the

:43:06.:43:08.

party? Is it the sort of discussion you want to be having no? It is a

:43:09.:43:14.

topic of huge debate. There is a lot of disagreement. It is important

:43:15.:43:18.

that when a new leader comes in, particularly someone like Jeremy,

:43:19.:43:21.

there is an opportunity to debate it. Don't be frightened of the

:43:22.:43:26.

debate. The role of those unions will be important. But they will not

:43:27.:43:29.

let a change in policy happen, will they? I don't know where we will end

:43:30.:43:36.

up. They have gone into it from a position of being strongly of the

:43:37.:43:41.

view that those jobs are important. Why has the decision being delayed?

:43:42.:43:44.

Do you think it is wise of the Government? It was supposed to be

:43:45.:43:50.

March this year but it is not going to happen. I don't think -- I don't

:43:51.:43:53.

have the answer. to happen. I don't think -- I don't

:43:54.:43:57.

that we would want it to go ahead. We have always been pro-Trident.

:43:58.:44:01.

that we would want it to go ahead. saw the rocket launched yesterday

:44:02.:44:05.

that we would want it to go ahead. ability to have long-range ballistic

:44:06.:44:10.

that we would want it to go ahead. missiles, means you should not even

:44:11.:44:13.

countenance the idea of not having Trident. Why not just have the vote

:44:14.:44:24.

no? I would be all in favour. But you are and were part of the

:44:25.:44:25.

Government and you are still you are and were part of the

:44:26.:44:28.

the party. Finally, your constituency party, where are

:44:29.:44:36.

Trident? Just like the Parliamentary party, constituencies are divided.

:44:37.:44:41.

Is yours divided or in favour of renewing Trident? I think they are

:44:42.:44:47.

largely divider. There are 50 members of the Chesterfield Labour

:44:48.:44:49.

Party. There are people on both sides of the argument. I have not

:44:50.:44:56.

done a straw poll. Maybe I should. Were you pleased Ken Livingstone was

:44:57.:45:01.

removed as co-convener of the defence review? I did not lose sleep

:45:02.:45:02.

that night. Now - he was once touted as a future

:45:03.:45:07.

Conservative Leader - So how was our Guest of the Day,

:45:08.:45:10.

Grant Shapps', career Once upon a time in the Westminster

:45:11.:45:14.

bubble you could find the whisper Grant Shapps - young, presentable,

:45:15.:45:19.

climbing the ministerial ladder, Being Conservative co-chairman

:45:20.:45:23.

from 2012 in the build-up to an election that the party

:45:24.:45:28.

wasn't expected to win, but got a working majority,

:45:29.:45:30.

should have been nothing but a plus, and although outside the Eton

:45:31.:45:33.

and Oxbridge circles of the PM, his energy and back story -

:45:34.:45:40.

his cousin is Mick Jones of The Clash - made him a serious

:45:41.:45:42.

contender who could still I like to chill out

:45:43.:45:45.

when I listen to music. Trading in online marketing advice

:45:46.:45:49.

as Michael Green might have made food for satire but

:45:50.:45:59.

it is hardly illegal. It was his stumble over

:46:00.:46:02.

whether he was still doing that To be absolutely clear,

:46:03.:46:04.

I do not have a second job, and I have never had a second

:46:05.:46:11.

job whilst being an MP. The Guardian served up proof

:46:12.:46:14.

otherwise and he had Even this was hardly man

:46:15.:46:17.

overboard stuff but he lost the co-chairmanship of the party

:46:18.:46:23.

after the election in what some saw as a rather an ungrateful move

:46:24.:46:26.

by the PM and although a minister many saw is at a demotion,

:46:27.:46:29.

and then in September last year Elliot Johnson seen

:46:30.:46:32.

here took his own life, claiming he was bullied

:46:33.:46:40.

by Mark Clark, seen here, the organiser of a youth wing

:46:41.:46:47.

election campaign called Road Trip. Grant Shapps had agreed to the idea

:46:48.:46:49.

and to Mr Clark running it but even during the campaign

:46:50.:46:53.

Grant Shapps' aide Paul Abbott - seen here next Lynton Crosby -

:46:54.:46:55.

admitted in e-mails that he was aware of

:46:56.:46:57.

complaints against Mr Clark. More complaints were raised

:46:58.:46:59.

and Mr Shapps decided he must He was not party chairman

:47:00.:47:02.

when the most lurid complaints were made about Mark Clark,

:47:03.:47:14.

nor when Mr Johnson died. He is now sole party chairman,

:47:15.:47:16.

ever closer to David Cameron, and that whisper about leadership

:47:17.:47:22.

and Mr Shapps has evaporated. Grant Shapps, they say all political

:47:23.:47:40.

careers end in failure, your ministerial career ended badly, do

:47:41.:47:44.

you agree? Yes, I stepped down because it was the right thing to

:47:45.:47:49.

do, I did not feel comfortable in a position where I had appointed

:47:50.:47:54.

somebody who turned out, if you believe it, not to be a good thing,

:47:55.:47:58.

and I thought somebody should take responsibility. The old-fashioned

:47:59.:48:02.

right thing to do. If you could go back, what would you have done

:48:03.:48:07.

differently? Not put that particular person in place. Were there signs?

:48:08.:48:13.

There were things that happen, little things, what were they? What

:48:14.:48:18.

rang alarm bells? A lot of complaints were things that were

:48:19.:48:25.

just people not getting on, nothing big, but that is why there is an

:48:26.:48:28.

enquiry going on which I will certainly be interested to see what

:48:29.:48:32.

they come up with full stop what I did not like was it looks like there

:48:33.:48:37.

was a conspiracy or cover-up afterwards, and I did not want be

:48:38.:48:40.

part of that, not for the Johnson family who lost their son, and it

:48:41.:48:45.

did not seem like the right thing to do. For reference, nobody asked me

:48:46.:48:52.

to step down or resign. Nobody wanted me to, probably with the

:48:53.:48:57.

exception of the Johnson is. I did it for them because they had asked.

:48:58.:49:01.

You said, in your resignation letter, I cannot help but think that

:49:02.:49:08.

those who complained should have set alarm bells ringing sooner. There

:49:09.:49:13.

was no smoking gun that somebody set an alarm bell would have rung. May

:49:14.:49:20.

be a shirt, maybe something should have added up and that is why the

:49:21.:49:25.

investigation will be helpful. Either way, forget that, I signed a

:49:26.:49:28.

piece of paper that brought somebody into the campaign. It led to

:49:29.:49:34.

something so serious that it is beyond the things we argue about in

:49:35.:49:39.

this studio, and I thought it was right that somebody said, OK, the

:49:40.:49:45.

rug. With me. You regret bringing him in now with hindsight. It let's

:49:46.:49:52.

to turn of events with a tragic ending and I thought it was the

:49:53.:49:55.

right thing to do and I have no regrets it. The difference between

:49:56.:50:00.

me being in a ministerial career and is not, compared to something that

:50:01.:50:05.

serious, it was trivial. Why be the only person who felt they should

:50:06.:50:10.

resign it is of what happened? I can only answer for myself and can only

:50:11.:50:14.

make my decisions. I have to go to bed and sleep at night and I do not

:50:15.:50:20.

say this to put pressure on others. It is up for everyone to decide what

:50:21.:50:25.

they do. I also thought that the fact I had signed that piece of

:50:26.:50:28.

paper meant I was the appropriate person to step down. Do you think a

:50:29.:50:34.

blind eye was turned to activities going on? Actually, I don't think

:50:35.:50:43.

that was what happened. As a party, they are good at dealing with a

:50:44.:50:46.

council who fell out with a chairman. I don't think we are good

:50:47.:50:51.

at dealing with things that are at this kind of level of seriousness.

:50:52.:50:56.

Actually, the very serious complaints, the 25 complaints, were

:50:57.:51:00.

received last summer and I think they were on their way to be looked

:51:01.:51:04.

at in a more serious way that again this is why a proper enquiry... That

:51:05.:51:11.

is why... That enquiry is ongoing. You don't think this is a proper

:51:12.:51:16.

enquiry? I think it would be helpful if the enquiry was set up in

:51:17.:51:24.

conjunction with the Johnsons. I will speak to them. I hope we learn

:51:25.:51:29.

lessons from it. Look, I don't think the Tories wanted this to happen,

:51:30.:51:33.

obviously, but what processes do you have in place? Where complaints

:51:34.:51:39.

handled? What of care to you have for young people who campaign for

:51:40.:51:42.

the organisation? They are proper questions to answer and I just felt

:51:43.:51:47.

that the right thing to do with step down. -- duty of care. Even though

:51:48.:51:53.

it is not the sort of enquiry would like to have seen, which in a way

:51:54.:51:58.

has lent itself to accusations of cover-up, do you accept that? I did

:51:59.:52:04.

not want to be personally still in place went dumping was not being

:52:05.:52:10.

seen as open as it should have been. -- something. As a result of that,

:52:11.:52:18.

it has become a more arm's-length thing which is the right thing to

:52:19.:52:24.

do. As we have said, so far, you are the only person in a position of 1's

:52:25.:52:30.

ability to face consequences. -- responsibility. When the report

:52:31.:52:34.

comes back, will others consider their position? I don't know out

:52:35.:52:39.

there want to speculate the coroner still has to do report, and then

:52:40.:52:42.

there is the investigation to come back. I think better than taking

:52:43.:52:50.

revenge... It is about accountability and responsibility.

:52:51.:52:54.

Do you think Lord Feldman, the co-chairman at the time and he still

:52:55.:53:01.

is, does he bear responsibility? We can see what the report says but I

:53:02.:53:05.

am not personally piling on the pressure at all. I think it is right

:53:06.:53:09.

to have a process and we will find out what it says. I suspect what has

:53:10.:53:14.

happened here is that we need to have as a party proper processes in

:53:15.:53:19.

place, a duty of care, and learn the lessons, which will be far more

:53:20.:53:22.

valuable than who does and who does not resign from a job. But for the

:53:23.:53:30.

Johnson family, bearing in mind whatever the wares on why force,

:53:31.:53:37.

there was a tragedy. A dreadful tragedy. Should others their

:53:38.:53:40.

response but he directly or indirectly? I am not trying to fudge

:53:41.:53:47.

this because I have stated my responsibility and I think it is

:53:48.:53:50.

right that we learn the lessons and find out how this death came about

:53:51.:53:56.

because there may well be other circumstances which are not related

:53:57.:54:00.

to the particular aspects of what happened in the party. Should the

:54:01.:54:05.

report be published in full? As full as possible. I imagine there are

:54:06.:54:10.

people who give evidence where they may need confident charity. Your

:54:11.:54:16.

evidence? Oh, yes. -- confidentiality. It has been badly

:54:17.:54:23.

handled, hasn't it? I was not happy with the way it was originally

:54:24.:54:26.

handled. The sensible thing would be to have the family in to express

:54:27.:54:31.

condolences directly to them, and secondly, to set up a review which

:54:32.:54:34.

would have been something they could have helped shape. The lesson can be

:54:35.:54:40.

learnt about that for anything in the future. One hopes nothing like

:54:41.:54:45.

this ever happens again. Personally, I did not feel right or comfortable

:54:46.:54:50.

being connected with all of that and that is why I wanted to stand down,

:54:51.:54:54.

to send a strong signal to Mr and Mrs Johnson who I have subsequently

:54:55.:55:04.

spoken to, and I have taken responsibility for this. Something a

:55:05.:55:07.

little different. Typed our own names into Google

:55:08.:55:10.

to see what comes up. These days Google has

:55:11.:55:14.

an 'autocomplete' function which helpfully suggests search

:55:15.:55:15.

terms based on user input. However, while there are plenty

:55:16.:55:17.

of suggested search terms when you put 'labour'

:55:18.:55:20.

into the search engine - not all of them complimentary -

:55:21.:55:22.

there are no similar suggestions It's led to conspiracy theories that

:55:23.:55:24.

Google is censoring its search terms Ellie Price has been

:55:25.:55:28.

searching for answers... at Daily Politics towers, searching

:55:29.:55:40.

for interesting political things. That does involve Google which tries

:55:41.:55:46.

to help us by predicting what we might be searching for,

:55:47.:55:48.

based on what other users This is what happens when you look

:55:49.:55:51.

up the political parties. Except for, mysteriously,

:55:52.:56:00.

the Conservatives where absolutely It has prompted some

:56:01.:56:01.

to wonder whether Google Google insists there

:56:02.:56:15.

is nothing untoward going on, that their predictions are based

:56:16.:56:18.

on a number of factors, including the popularity

:56:19.:56:20.

of certain search terms, but they also point out they can

:56:21.:56:22.

remove inappropriate And even if the searches

:56:23.:56:24.

are predictable, the results Yes, look shocked, both of you. Not

:56:25.:56:45.

as exciting as you think, I can assure you. Do you think the

:56:46.:56:49.

Conservatives are doing a good job at making sure there are only

:56:50.:56:54.

favourable terms for the Internet searchers? There is no basis for

:56:55.:56:59.

that at all. A lot of rubbish gets spoken. I saw a story about the tax

:57:00.:57:03.

bill. I was one of 17 ministers that met with Google but I met with them

:57:04.:57:10.

while I was international development minister, it

:57:11.:57:12.

while I was international an exciting discussion about tax. Do

:57:13.:57:16.

you believe the conspiracy theory? I don't know. It is startling that it

:57:17.:57:28.

should show that. Perhaps you could suggest. How do you do this? There

:57:29.:57:34.

are ways of actually making sure that favourable responses come up

:57:35.:57:43.

when you Google certain things? You type my name and there will be big

:57:44.:57:49.

plenty of less than favourable terms. -- there will be plenty. I

:57:50.:57:54.

don't know whether you can manage this or whether Google can enlighten

:57:55.:57:58.

us. If you go across the Internet you can find a huge amount about the

:57:59.:58:01.

Conservative Party. I don't quite know.

:58:02.:58:03.

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

:58:04.:58:06.

Was it a) an octopus b) a sloth c) a cow or d) a snake?

:58:07.:58:11.

So Grant and Toby: what's the correct answer?

:58:12.:58:20.

I have no idea if it is true that octopus would feel right. There has

:58:21.:58:31.

been a debate... Yes, it is the right answer, it was a guest. Who do

:58:32.:58:37.

you agree with? Margaret Thatcher said we should stay in or out of the

:58:38.:58:42.

EU? I am sure she would have my line. Sit on the fence! Actually, is

:58:43.:58:50.

this going to be a line in the sand or is it another one of the EU

:58:51.:58:55.

things. On that question, we have run out of time stop thank you to

:58:56.:59:00.

both of you for being our guests of the day, goodbye.

:59:01.:59:04.

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