Browse content similar to 14/03/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
36 people are killed in a bomb attack in the Turkish capital | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
Is the country in any position to help solve the EU migrant crisis? | :00:44. | :00:49. | |
What's the relationship between the Labour's candidate | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
for Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, and Babar Ahmad? | :00:53. | :00:56. | |
The so-called cyber-jihadist speaks about their relationship | :00:57. | :00:58. | |
Why Tories who voted to remain in 1975 are campaigning to leave, | :00:59. | :01:10. | |
and Labour leavers in '75 are now for remain. | :01:11. | :01:13. | |
And I ask Boris Johnson what his chances are | :01:14. | :01:15. | |
You had a greater chance of being reincarnated as an olive... | :01:16. | :01:18. | |
You remember, than you did about being | :01:19. | :01:21. | |
Or a baked bean, or decapitated by Frisbee or locked | :01:22. | :01:25. | |
And with us for the duration today, a former Europe Minister, | :01:26. | :01:38. | |
And the Conservative MP, Graham Brady, who was once | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
First this morning, 36 people have been killed in a suicide car bomb | :01:42. | :01:48. | |
attack in the Turkish capital, Ankara. | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
The bomb went off last night outside the main railway station | :01:53. | :01:54. | |
The Turkish government are already pointing the finger at the outlawed | :01:55. | :02:05. | |
One of the dead is said to be a known PKK militant. | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
Last month, a bomb attack on a military convoy in Ankara | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
killed 28 people and wounded dozens more, and in October more than 100 | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
people were killed at a peace rally in the city. | :02:18. | :02:24. | |
Caroline Flint, how dangerous this unrest in Turkey for the rest of us? | :02:25. | :02:32. | |
It is obviously very concerning pickers as well as these attacks we | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
know that Turkey is obviously dealing with millions of refugees | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
coming through their borders as well. And what is so sad for Turkey, | :02:41. | :02:46. | |
too, and I've holidayed there many times, in fact I was there last | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
summer, is the huge impact these things have not just in terms of a | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
loss for the people involved are also on Turkey's economy. But the | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
problem for Turkey and in some ways then relying on Turkey to stop the | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
migrant crisis is that they are fighting a war on two fronts. They | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
are still fighting an old and ongoing battle with the PKK and they | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
are also part of this coalition to fight IS, are they really in a | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
position to help us fight the migrant crisis? We have to depend on | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
a working Turkey. Turkey is a critically important power in the | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
region. In terms of helping with what is going on in Syria and other | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
parts, but also our front line on the migrant crisis. Should we be | :03:32. | :03:35. | |
relying on them and is this deal going to stick? The deal is another | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
matter and I don't think the deal is going to make much difference. The | :03:40. | :03:45. | |
fact is with one in, one outcome you do not discourage people from coming | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
you are just providing a different dynamic in that same traffic. We | :03:50. | :03:52. | |
don't really have an alternative, do we? We do have to work with Turkey | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
because they are dealing with millions of refugees. Not only in | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
terms of within Turkey but also the problem of traffickers taking people | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
out of Turkey and into Greece as well. It is absolutely right that | :04:06. | :04:08. | |
the government and other EU nations should be having this discussion. | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
What the final deal will look like is yet to be negotiated. Do you | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
think it will be done on Thursday? I don't know whether it will be done | :04:18. | :04:25. | |
on Thursday but it will not be resolved, the problem will not be | :04:26. | :04:27. | |
resolved until the EU recognises that free movement of people cannot | :04:28. | :04:30. | |
underpin relationships between 28 countries across the continent of | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
Europe. Realistically that's over anyway, freedom of movement for a | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
lot of countries. Are you supporting the idea it should go altogether? A | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
lot of European politicians say it is core to what they believe in. If | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
people recognised it was over we might have a more meaningful | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
negotiations. Is that the solution, to actually state officially that | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
freedom of movement of people is over, as people have been erecting | :04:58. | :05:00. | |
fences and walls to try to stop migrants coming through? Free | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
movement does not mean a free for all, there are limitations on who | :05:05. | :05:07. | |
can come into different parts of the EU and we are part of, we are not | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
part of the Shannon zone so we will not be changing it any time soon. | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
There is a recognition that the external borders of the EU need to | :05:19. | :05:21. | |
be stronger than they are, and clearly what Angela Merkel said | :05:22. | :05:24. | |
which is a sister party to Graham's in the last few months hasn't helped | :05:25. | :05:30. | |
the situation and she is paying the price in the polls. Done very badly | :05:31. | :05:33. | |
in those elections that have just happened. David Cameron said in 2014 | :05:34. | :05:40. | |
that he still would like Turkey to join the EU. Do you think he still | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
feels like that? I don't know, but Britain has always been a strong | :05:46. | :05:48. | |
supporter of the idea of Turkey joining the EU. I always used to say | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
when I was shadowing Europe that can never happen until we have a very | :05:53. | :05:55. | |
different kind of European Union, one that had updated concepts on | :05:56. | :06:02. | |
open borders and so on. Let's hear what George Osborne had to say on | :06:03. | :06:04. | |
this subject yesterday. We have a veto over | :06:05. | :06:06. | |
whether Turkey joins or not. We have set conditions and we have | :06:07. | :06:08. | |
made it absolutely clear that we will not accept new member | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
states to the European Union and give them unfettered | :06:14. | :06:15. | |
free movement of people unless their economies | :06:16. | :06:17. | |
are much closer in size So Britain would block | :06:18. | :06:19. | |
Turkish accession? We are absolutely clear that | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
while countries might or might not accede, we have to make that | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
decision at the time, they would only have free movement | :06:28. | :06:29. | |
of people if the economies Is he right at the moment? Should it | :06:30. | :06:42. | |
be something that would be put on hold? Would you want to see a veto | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
exercised if, in talks on accession, the deal was that Turkey could | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
quicken up its chances to become a member of the EU? That is part of | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
Turkey's negotiation gambit in all this. To be honest I don't think | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
there is any sign any time soon that Turkey will be part of the EU. As a | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
country that wants to be it already has certain rights to trade and work | :07:06. | :07:08. | |
with us but those rights are based on what we expect them to do. Apart | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
from a whole number of other things, the other week we saw that a | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
newspaper was shut down in Turkey. Beyond the economic side of things, | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
part of being part of the EU is about freedom of speech, a free | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
press and other things as well. Not just about Turkey but any country, I | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
would say it has never been harder to become a member of the EU. If | :07:30. | :07:35. | |
some of the tests were applied to day were applied before, there may | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
be fewer countries in the EU. But Visa free travel for text has been | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
discussed because there has to be a quid pro quo, and you can understand | :07:44. | :07:46. | |
why Turkey would drive a hard bargain, they are the ones on the | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
front line. Is it a price worth paying in order to get Turkey to | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
deal with, to some extent, the flow of Syrian refugees and migrants? It | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
doesn't work, Britain couldn't deliver it, neither could the French | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
or Germans. We have seen how the German electorate are responding to | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
the open borders policy Angela Merkel has had. It is something | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
people on the continent of Europe have had enough of. People expect | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
countries to restore control of the borders and to control the flows of | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
migrants. Fundamentally it is not possible to do that while you are in | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
the EU. We will come onto the EU in just a moment. | :08:24. | :08:25. | |
Who or what did George Osborne ask to "keep it down" | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
while he was writing his Budget in the House of Commons yesterday? | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
Was it a) noisy protesters, b) squeaky House of Commons mice, | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
or d) Top Gear, who were filming outside? | :08:40. | :08:45. | |
At the end of the show, Caroline and Graham will give us | :08:46. | :08:48. | |
Now, there have lots of questions in the media in recent weeks | :08:49. | :08:57. | |
about the relationship between Labour's candidate | :08:58. | :08:59. | |
for London Mayor, Sadiq Khan, and Babar Ahmad, the man known | :09:00. | :09:02. | |
In an exclusive interview for the Victoria Derbyshire | :09:03. | :09:09. | |
programme, Ahmad has talked for the first time about the nature | :09:10. | :09:11. | |
In 2014, a US court sentenced Babar to 12.5 years in prison | :09:12. | :09:30. | |
after admitting supporting terrorism. | :09:31. | :09:31. | |
He and others ran an influential online operation, Azzam.com, | :09:32. | :09:33. | |
propagating armed jihadist ideology from the late 1990s, | :09:34. | :09:35. | |
Babar had spent 10 years in a British jail fighting | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
During this time, Sadiq Khan met Mr Ahmad in jail and took | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
The Labour MP for Tooting says he did this is his role | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
as a constituency MP but acknowledges that he and Babar Ahmad | :09:50. | :09:52. | |
In today's interview, Ahmad says he was "naive" to show | :09:53. | :10:00. | |
support for the Taliban and had this to say about his relationship | :10:01. | :10:02. | |
Sadiq Khan, he gave the same level of support to me that Zac Goldsmith | :10:03. | :10:11. | |
and Boris Johnson said, which is basically that as a British | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
citizen accused of crimes committed in this country, | :10:16. | :10:17. | |
Was he visiting you as a friend, or a constituency MP? | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
He was visiting me as a constituency MP. | :10:22. | :10:27. | |
My family, and lots of people here in Tooting, they told him | :10:28. | :10:33. | |
to come and visit me and he just came to visit me and see how I was. | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
In my community, anyone who is not your enemy | :10:38. | :10:40. | |
is a friend so in that sense, he is my friend. | :10:41. | :10:43. | |
But I've never socialised with him or gone out to eat with him, | :10:44. | :10:46. | |
He is probably an acquaintance more than a friend. | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
How close were you before you were arrested in December 2003? | :10:52. | :10:57. | |
I mean, Tooting is a small community. | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
I remember every Saturday, he used to be standing at a stall | :11:03. | :11:05. | |
for the Labour Party on Tooting High Street. | :11:06. | :11:07. | |
If I saw him, I would go up to him and shake his hand. | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
He is just someone that I knew, walking on the streets. | :11:12. | :11:15. | |
In an interview in the last few days, Sadiq Khan said about you, | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
"We were not close friends but we knew each other growing up". | :11:20. | :11:22. | |
Have you met him since you arrived back in Britain in the last few | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
Yes, I was travelling home one night on the tube with my lawyer | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
and I bumped into him and shook his hand. | :11:33. | :11:34. | |
You can watch the whole of that interview on the Victoria Derbyshire | :11:35. | :11:37. | |
We asked for an interview with Sadiq Khan or one of his team, | :11:38. | :11:45. | |
But we're joined now by Davis Lewin from the Foreign Policy Think Tank, | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
What is your specific accusation against Sadiq Khan Chris Green we | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
have to look at there is a matter of grave national | :11:56. | :12:03. | |
security here with Babar Ahmad, many of whose assertions are open to | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
significant challenge in terms of the interview he has given. No | :12:09. | :12:11. | |
politician should have a relationship with a man such as | :12:12. | :12:14. | |
this, certainly not campaigning for him in that way. I think there are | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
some specific pieces that I question when it comes to Sadiq Khan and his | :12:20. | :12:26. | |
past activities with Mr Ahmad. I think the most obvious one is the | :12:27. | :12:28. | |
Rose report in which it is abundantly clear that Mr Khan had | :12:29. | :12:34. | |
been registered to visit Mr Ahmad in prison as a friend long before he | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
had been elected as an MP in that way. You say that no politician | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
should ever have a relationship with someone like Babar Ahmad, but in the | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
Sadiq Khan statement he says, he made it very clear that he was never | :12:48. | :12:55. | |
a friend of Babar Ahmad's. He was a constituency MP, and that is when he | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
visited Babar Ahmad, to represent him as a constituent, and Babar | :13:01. | :13:03. | |
Ahmad has confirmed that is true. About Ahmad said in his interview | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
that he received as much support from Zac Goldsmith and Boris Johnson | :13:08. | :13:14. | |
as he did from Sadiq Khan, so what is the specific allegation apart | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
from the fact that you perhaps don't like the fact that he visited him in | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
jail? These are two completely different relationships. If we look | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
at what the various politicians have done, there have been these claims, | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
conservative politicians, Labour politicians meet with bad people, in | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
the room with bad people and so forth. We have a clear case of a | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
politician, it was not when he was an MP, it was before he was an MP, | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
the police made that clear in their statement, he went to visit him as a | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
friend, registered as a friend before that. The sister of Babar | :13:50. | :13:51. | |
Ahmad is on the record as saying they were friends. We need to | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
specify what you mean by friend. Because it is important, semantics | :13:56. | :14:01. | |
and language here are very important. As we heard from Babar | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
Ahmad in the interview he said, yes, we were friends because we were not | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
enemies. They knew each other as childhood mates, they did not | :14:11. | :14:13. | |
socialise together. They were not friends in the way that you might be | :14:14. | :14:16. | |
with people that you see on a regular basis, do you accept that? | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
If you have a convicted terrorist who, at the time sitting awaiting | :14:22. | :14:26. | |
extradition, and he is being visited, and there is an | :14:27. | :14:29. | |
extraordinarily clear protocol about who can visit under what | :14:30. | :14:32. | |
circumstances, then I think the French bracket mean something. If | :14:33. | :14:35. | |
you are registered to visit as a friend, this is not a generic term | :14:36. | :14:41. | |
in that way, it is a specific thing. If I may say, Sadiq Khan wrote the | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
foreword to a report that made outrageous claims, Franco propaganda | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
as far as I am concerned, about the impact the Babar Ahmad case had on | :14:51. | :14:58. | |
radicalisation in Britain, it had people like extremists even the | :14:59. | :15:00. | |
Prime Minister has called out in it, in which he said he had known him | :15:01. | :15:04. | |
for 15 years and he was a supporter of him. Let's look at the approved | :15:05. | :15:10. | |
visitors scheme. It exempts a number of categories including legal | :15:11. | :15:12. | |
advisers of categories including legal | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
of Parliament, which would have prevented Sadiq Khan going as an MP, | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
which is perhaps why the category of friend stayed rather than changed to | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
be an MP because he would not have been able to visit him and he wanted | :15:26. | :15:29. | |
to, because he was trying to fight extradition, which Boris Johnson was | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
also doing. I do not see the differentiation between Boris | :15:34. | :15:34. | |
Johnson and Sadiq Khan. This happened before he was an MP. | :15:35. | :15:42. | |
When the police spoke to him, it was before he was elected as an MP which | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
was later in the year. The interviews in the report before that | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
and the police make clear he was forthcoming about it and it refers | :15:51. | :15:53. | |
to a friend and a childhood friend and whatever else in that way. But | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
there is a much broader issue at play. It is an extraordinarily grave | :15:58. | :16:01. | |
issue of national security. This man is a convicted terrorist, there are | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
no questions about no matter how they try to spin the interview or | :16:06. | :16:08. | |
what happens in terms of seeking to make all sorts of claims about | :16:09. | :16:11. | |
America and I don't know what an Sadiq Khan was one of the | :16:12. | :16:14. | |
campaigners, among others, among some unsavoury groups, that had | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
tried to paint this in a very different light. The categorical | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
judgment of the US court, and this is absolutely clear, there can be no | :16:23. | :16:27. | |
doubt he is a convicted terrorist. Why does it imply that Sadiq Khan | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
had any sympathy for his views? He categorically state he did not, he | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
did not support anything Babar Ahmad was accused of and later charged. He | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
was representing him to some extent in the legal capacity. Yes, the term | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
friend has been disputed, and then as an MP. There is nothing there | :16:45. | :16:50. | |
that suggest Sadiq Khan sympathised, supported or had any connection with | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
what Babar Ahmad was doing or has done since. You will have two asking | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
yourself what exactly the relationship was and clearly he's | :16:59. | :17:01. | |
not happy to come and tell you. Except he has said categorically | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
they were not friends. Is he lying? I don't know if that is the right | :17:07. | :17:09. | |
word. I know there are questions about the relation ship and I know | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
the Rose report is clear about using the word friends. However, will say | :17:14. | :17:25. | |
again, it's a matter of grave national security concern and one | :17:26. | :17:27. | |
has to understand what the relationship was and we need to | :17:28. | :17:29. | |
understand exactly why a politician would be in a relationship of that | :17:30. | :17:31. | |
kind, supporting someone who ends up a convicted terrorist. Caroline | :17:32. | :17:34. | |
Flint, do you accept that Sadiq Khan to be more forthcoming about the | :17:35. | :17:36. | |
relationship? He has not come on today and not been as open and frank | :17:37. | :17:39. | |
as he could be about the relationship or not that he had with | :17:40. | :17:42. | |
Babar Ahmad. I think he's been very open. He can't come here because | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
he's doing a visit in Bromley as part of his campaign but he has been | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
open about this. To say something about this, before he was an MP, | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
Sadiq Khan was a lawyer, involved with lots of human rights | :17:55. | :18:00. | |
organisations and just like Zac Goldsmith and Boris Johnson, the | :18:01. | :18:02. | |
three of them were against the changes to the extradition treaty | :18:03. | :18:05. | |
between the UK and the US. That is why all three of them, in different | :18:06. | :18:09. | |
ways, were questioning the detainment of this gentleman because | :18:10. | :18:12. | |
he was being detained without trial pending extradition. Do you accept | :18:13. | :18:19. | |
they were friends? No, I don't. But he did visit Babar Ahmad in the | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
category of friend. As you pointed out, in order to get a visit, these | :18:24. | :18:26. | |
things are about filling in forms and what have you. What I think is | :18:27. | :18:36. | |
clear is that the man himself as they are not friends, since he's | :18:37. | :18:39. | |
been back, he bumped into him on the tube late at night and I think there | :18:40. | :18:42. | |
was something else when there was a community thing. Just to talk about | :18:43. | :18:44. | |
Sadiq, he is a British Muslim who has faced demonstrations outside of | :18:45. | :18:47. | |
mosques by more extreme views within Islam, as based step threats for | :18:48. | :18:53. | |
supporting same-sex marriage -- has faced death threats. He has spoken | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
against extremism and the negative campaigning we are hearing, not only | :18:58. | :18:59. | |
from this gentleman but also from Zac Goldsmith during the Mayall | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
contest is despicable. I think it is good to have British Muslims like | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
Sadiq Khan willing to stand up and speak against extremism which is why | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
he will be such a brilliant mayor for London. Has Sadiq Khan got a | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
case to answer? I certainly think it's incumbent upon him to be as | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
open and frank as possible. I think thereafter slightly different | :19:22. | :19:24. | |
responses he has given in the past. My understanding is he told the new | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
statement a year ago that Babar Ahmad, he saw him as a constituent | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
and a friend. I think there has been a shading of the definitions. The | :19:34. | :19:39. | |
thing is, Caroline Flint, you could view it that when it suited him, | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
Siddique Khan has gained favour in his constituency by making a big | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
deal of how well and long he has known Babar Ahmad and now it looks | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
as though he's a liability to him becoming mayor of London, he's | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
trying to distance himself? Identity there's anything that the has said | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
in which he has supported what Babar Ahmad was accused of all defended | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
his position, once he pleaded guilty and was extradited to America. I | :20:05. | :20:10. | |
think Sadiq, as long as I've known him, has been very clear about how | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
we have two fight extremism in Islam, which is affecting so many | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
people in our country and elsewhere. He has talked about as mayor, | :20:19. | :20:21. | |
standing up for better community integration but also being a figure | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
who will stand up for the British Muslim community, to argue against | :20:27. | :20:28. | |
those who spread such poison and hate within our country. When people | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
are saying, why aren't we see more British Muslim standing up and | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
saying that? He will stand up and say that, not just for British | :20:38. | :20:40. | |
Muslims but for Londoners. I'm afraid the record is very different, | :20:41. | :20:45. | |
let's look the at the record and the fax clearly. You can't say he did | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
that wrong because it is the same wind of thing Babar Ahmad is saying | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
about the US justice system. There are clear records. Babar Ahmad is a | :20:55. | :20:57. | |
convicted terrorist and Sadiq Khan filled out a form to visit him in | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
prison as a friend. These are facts on the record. When you look at the | :21:02. | :21:04. | |
campaign about Babar Ahmad, it is clear that Sadiq Khan was a leading | :21:05. | :21:07. | |
light in that campaign in terms of the way he spoke out and others did | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
not. One of the things he indulged what the narrative that somehow, US | :21:13. | :21:16. | |
justice is not good enough for a victor Mike that. But Boris Johnson | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
and Zac Goldsmith said the same. -- a victim like that. The campaign had | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
support from other quarters, not just the de Caen. You are trying to | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
tarnish Sadiq Khan by association. I'm not trying to tarnish anybody, | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
I'm trying to make sure the national security of this country is not put | :21:35. | :21:37. | |
in the hands of people who have associations they should not have. | :21:38. | :21:40. | |
What I'm saying very clearly because that is a very serious accusation is | :21:41. | :21:43. | |
that the record shows there were people involved with the campaign, | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
when it comes to the extradition but that is a separate matter. The | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
extradition law at the time, the campaign is a separate matter to | :21:52. | :21:59. | |
what happened about Babar Ahmad and the idea that US justice is not good | :22:00. | :22:02. | |
enough. He has been convicted as a terrorist in the US court and Sadiq | :22:03. | :22:04. | |
Khan wrote questionable things in that regard about whether we can | :22:05. | :22:07. | |
trust the US justice system. But he was not alone. We have to finish | :22:08. | :22:08. | |
there. Thank you. Now, they voted to remain in 1975. | :22:09. | :22:10. | |
Now they're campaigning to leave. They voted to leave in 1975. | :22:11. | :22:13. | |
Now they're campaigning to remain. Why have so many politicians swapped | :22:14. | :22:16. | |
sides in the Europe debate? So, three weeks in and it | :22:17. | :22:18. | |
feels like three months. The campaign ahead of the referendum | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
on our membership of the EU Besides those who had pretty much | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
made up their minds long before, it leaves many remaining baffled, | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
bamboozled and bored. I need a break just trying | :22:35. | :22:37. | |
to make sense of it all. Are people inners or outers | :22:38. | :22:40. | |
based on sovereignty, security, patriotism, | :22:41. | :22:43. | |
or is it something else? The centre of political | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
gravity, in fact. Go back to 1975 and it was | :22:48. | :22:55. | |
the Labour Party who A major chunk of the party | :22:56. | :22:59. | |
wanted to keep out. They thought the EEC, | :23:00. | :23:04. | |
as it was then, would be an obstacle to central planning, | :23:05. | :23:07. | |
nationalisation and expansion The Conservatives, on the other | :23:08. | :23:09. | |
hand, were pretty much united. The UK economy was in the doldrums | :23:10. | :23:15. | |
and Europe, they thought, was a place of dynamism | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
and enterprise. They hoped some of it | :23:20. | :23:21. | |
would rub off on the UK. In the 1970s, it could be argued | :23:22. | :23:25. | |
that two of our main political parties were to the left | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
of the centre of gravity in the EEC, The Conservatives felt that | :23:30. | :23:34. | |
continued membership of the EEC would drag the domestic centre | :23:35. | :23:40. | |
of gravity to the right. What they thought they would get | :23:41. | :23:43. | |
from Europe was That was why Margaret Thatcher | :23:44. | :23:46. | |
was strongly in favour of Europe until really quite | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
late in the 1980s. Her Euroscepticism came much later | :23:51. | :23:53. | |
than many people think. Fast forward 41 years | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
and the parties' roles are reversed. A large chunk of the Parliamentary | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
party and grassroots want out. Brussels, they feel, | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
is a brake on dynamism and economic growth and is holding back | :24:08. | :24:09. | |
the free market. Immigration is | :24:10. | :24:12. | |
uncontrollable from inside. Labour MPs, with a few notable | :24:13. | :24:15. | |
exceptions, want us to stay They point to the social protections | :24:16. | :24:18. | |
and defence of workers' rights. So what has happened | :24:19. | :24:24. | |
in the intervening years? All this can be explained | :24:25. | :24:27. | |
by gravity again. Mrs Thatcher takes the Conservative | :24:28. | :24:33. | |
Party further to the right than the centre of gravity | :24:34. | :24:35. | |
in the EEC and Europe. This leaves a vacuum which, | :24:36. | :24:40. | |
under Neil Kinnock and Tony Blair, moves Labour closer to the European | :24:41. | :24:43. | |
centre of gravity, in fact, pretty much ending up | :24:44. | :24:47. | |
in exactly the same space. The key factor that changed | :24:48. | :24:52. | |
Margaret Thatcher's attitude was a speech by Jacques Delors, | :24:53. | :24:55. | |
the president of the European Commission, to the Trade | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
Union Congress in 1988. He said that the trade unions | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
could get benefits from Brussels that they had not been able | :25:05. | :25:06. | |
to get from Westminster. That led Margaret Thatcher to say | :25:07. | :25:10. | |
in her Bruges speech shortly afterwards that we had not expelled | :25:11. | :25:13. | |
socialism by the front door in Britain, to have it brought | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
in by the back door from Brussels. Since then, all parties' | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
gravitational centres have I'm calling it Dilnot's Universal | :25:23. | :25:23. | |
Law of Referendums. And we're joined now by Lord Lawson, | :25:24. | :25:31. | |
who voted to remain in 1975 but is now campaigning to leave, | :25:32. | :25:49. | |
and Neil Kinnock, who was an outer in 1975 but is now campaigning | :25:50. | :25:52. | |
to remain in the EU. Bear with us! Why have you changed | :25:53. | :26:03. | |
your mind? In the first place, the European Union has changed. I was | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
already a little bit against it because in a way, although I was an | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
MP, I refuse to campaign in the referendum campaign of 1975 but I | :26:13. | :26:18. | |
did, and I make no bones about it, vote to remain. But what has changed | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
is the European Union. The fundamental change, the Rubicon, the | :26:23. | :26:28. | |
watershed was the introduction of the single currency. A single | :26:29. | :26:31. | |
currency only makes sense if there is a fiscal union, which means a | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
political union, which means the United States of Europe. That was | :26:36. | :26:40. | |
when it changed? Absolutely. I remember a great argument I had with | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
Hugh Gaskell, a little more than 15 years ago. He was passionately | :26:46. | :26:50. | |
against joining the European Union because it would be a political | :26:51. | :26:54. | |
union, and he said it would be the end of 1000 years of history for | :26:55. | :26:58. | |
this country. I argued with him that it was largely about trade. I was | :26:59. | :27:03. | |
wrong and he was right. Why have you changed your mind? Because the | :27:04. | :27:07. | |
realities have changed. When I campaigned in 1975 to come out of | :27:08. | :27:15. | |
the European Community and the common market, as we then called it, | :27:16. | :27:19. | |
I was concerned to a degree about Parliamentary sovereignty, although | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
not as much as many of my colleagues, including Michael foot | :27:24. | :27:29. | |
and Tony Benn. My main preoccupation was the effect | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
and Tony Benn. My main preoccupation Northern Europe would have in | :27:34. | :27:34. | |
pulling away jobs and investment from the UK, notably of course, the | :27:35. | :27:41. | |
part of it which I represented in South Wales. Over the intervening | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
years, it has become clear, not just that the single market of the | :27:47. | :27:49. | |
European Union has a strong social dimension, which is very appealing | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
to working people and those that I represented, but even more | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
importantly, that at the very time I was arguing about my concerns | :27:59. | :28:02. | |
relating to the pull of jobs and investment, the European Community | :28:03. | :28:10. | |
was developing a very well-developed regional policy in order to counter | :28:11. | :28:18. | |
that effect. To the extent that now, something around 200,000 jobs in | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
Wales relate directly to the single market. So they would go in your | :28:24. | :28:27. | |
mind? I'm not saying that they would go but they relate directly to the | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
kind of trade and investment religion chips that we have been | :28:32. | :28:33. | |
able to establish and develop over 43 years and -- relationships. And | :28:34. | :28:39. | |
in addition between the agricultural support payments under regional | :28:40. | :28:42. | |
payments, Wales, on the periphery, as we used to call it, is getting | :28:43. | :28:47. | |
roughly 1.7 billion per year directly from the European Union. | :28:48. | :28:51. | |
Although interestingly, the polls show that quite a lot of people in | :28:52. | :28:54. | |
Wales are Eurosceptic and would like to pull out. The case in 1975, I | :28:55. | :28:59. | |
made an eyesore to articulated the arguments them, that I'm one of | :29:00. | :29:03. | |
those -- and those who believe that Wales could be best served of | :29:04. | :29:06. | |
pulling out of European Union I think are wrong. Graham Brady, has | :29:07. | :29:10. | |
there been this political shift for both parties, if you like? These | :29:11. | :29:14. | |
gentlemen have changed their minds and so have many of their | :29:15. | :29:18. | |
compatriots. But generally, have both parties shifted to the right on | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
this issue? I'm not sure they have both shifted to the right but I | :29:23. | :29:25. | |
think there's been an enormous movement in the population here. But | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
also in other European countries. There was a poll a couple of weeks | :29:31. | :29:33. | |
ago that said 48% of Dutch people want to leave the European Union for | :29:34. | :29:38. | |
precisely the reasons Nigel has articulated. People are seeing the | :29:39. | :29:40. | |
fact this is now a very different thing. It does not fit with national | :29:41. | :29:45. | |
democracy. It is taking choices away from people and preventing us from | :29:46. | :29:48. | |
running our own countries in the way we want to run them. The problems | :29:49. | :29:52. | |
they have got in the Eurozone, a crisis which is unresolved, the | :29:53. | :29:55. | |
problem of dealing with migration which they have no way of resolving, | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
it is coming home to people that the only way to settle these things is | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
to change very profoundly from the settlement we have at the moment. | :30:04. | :30:11. | |
Is there a point that actually in the 1970s the Tories were happy | :30:12. | :30:19. | |
about the European project? They saw it as more entrepreneurial, more | :30:20. | :30:22. | |
businesslike than this country was at that time during the turbulent | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
1970s? Now they see it more as a left-wing venture, more socially | :30:28. | :30:31. | |
cohesive, and that's why the Tories have gone off it? I do not think it | :30:32. | :30:37. | |
is about left and right at all. What I would say about the change that | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
has happened in the European Union, and also the fact it is quite right | :30:42. | :30:47. | |
in theory as your correspondent pointed out that at that time the | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
British economy was not doing very well, in the 70s. The European | :30:53. | :30:55. | |
economy seemed to be doing very well. That carried an attraction. | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
What has happened since then, thanks to the refunds of the Thatcher in | :31:01. | :31:03. | |
error, we now have the strongest economy in Europe. -- the re-forms | :31:04. | :31:10. | |
of the Thatcher era. Following the single currency the euro area is a | :31:11. | :31:20. | |
disaster. I was Chancellor of the Exchequer for many years, I have had | :31:21. | :31:24. | |
some responsibility for looking at economic policy and how economies | :31:25. | :31:27. | |
work. In my considered judgment our success has got nothing to do with | :31:28. | :31:32. | |
the European Union. Indeed we would do far better economic and if we | :31:33. | :31:37. | |
were to leave. Any of the past that would be available after exit, | :31:38. | :31:40. | |
whether it was the Norway option, Switzerland, Canadian or just | :31:41. | :31:47. | |
relying on them would not give us adequate cover for the export of our | :31:48. | :31:52. | |
services, including financial services to the remainder of the | :31:53. | :31:55. | |
European Union and that could be devastating on its effect for the | :31:56. | :31:59. | |
whole economy. As an ex-Chancellor, Nigel, you know very well that we | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
depend very substantially, partly as a result of the changes that you | :32:04. | :32:09. | |
referred to being made, very substantially on being a service | :32:10. | :32:12. | |
economy with a very strong financial services sector. Even countries like | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
Switzerland have not been able to negotiate. We would not have access | :32:17. | :32:21. | |
the way we do if we left the European Union. Another country that | :32:22. | :32:28. | |
has been able to negotiate for access? Forget all this nonsense. | :32:29. | :32:32. | |
The great majority of the world is outside the European Union. The vast | :32:33. | :32:37. | |
bulk of the world. Most of these countries now are doing well | :32:38. | :32:40. | |
economic league, better than most of the countries in the European union. | :32:41. | :32:46. | |
Take a service that is close to your heart, television programmes. Do you | :32:47. | :32:51. | |
think suddenly it will be impossible to sell television programmes to the | :32:52. | :32:54. | |
European Union? That is way above my pay grade. You are saying that we | :32:55. | :33:00. | |
can get the access that we have now when we are not members of the | :33:01. | :33:04. | |
European Union. We will do far better. Gentleman, hold fire. I am | :33:05. | :33:12. | |
not prepared to gamble my grandchildren's future. You should | :33:13. | :33:17. | |
be concerned about being a self-governing democracy. We are. | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
That brings me back, on a self-governing authority, how much | :33:22. | :33:24. | |
of this is about sovereignty, or is this to some extent a red herring? | :33:25. | :33:29. | |
For you and some of your older colleagues in the Labour Party, they | :33:30. | :33:32. | |
have gone on a political journey, are you surprised that there are | :33:33. | :33:37. | |
hardly any in the Shadow Cabinet who would campaign vigorously to leave? | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
I am not surprised. I think compared to 1975 we are in a different type | :33:43. | :33:45. | |
of world, much more interconnected. And a different type of party? A | :33:46. | :33:50. | |
different type of party but we more interconnected. It is about the | :33:51. | :33:54. | |
economy but it is about security as well and things like the | :33:55. | :33:57. | |
environment. We cannot put up Fortress Britain around our shores | :33:58. | :34:03. | |
to deal with problems of pollution. But we are not part of the Schengen | :34:04. | :34:09. | |
zone now. I hear this, we are not part of Schengen, we are not part of | :34:10. | :34:16. | |
the euro, we can make decisions. I hate the whole project fear thing, I | :34:17. | :34:20. | |
want us to have a debate about the real world. If we leave the European | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
Union, the questions are still not being answered as to what the world | :34:25. | :34:28. | |
would look like for Great Britain. Because if we want to trade like | :34:29. | :34:31. | |
America, like other countries around the world, like the Canadians, the | :34:32. | :34:36. | |
Swiss, the Norwegians, they will have to die loot what they can ask | :34:37. | :34:38. | |
for in order to trade within the EU. A simple vision of what it looks | :34:39. | :34:47. | |
like for Britain out, never mind comparisons with other countries who | :34:48. | :34:50. | |
have their own arrangements, how would it be unique for Britain? A | :34:51. | :34:57. | |
free democracy that makes its own laws can decide who governs them and | :34:58. | :35:00. | |
boots out if they don't like them. And the ability to control our | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
borders. But we do control our own borders. There are people coming | :35:05. | :35:10. | |
into the United Kingdom without us having any control whatsoever. And | :35:11. | :35:13. | |
when it comes to trade we're seeing service export is twice as fast to | :35:14. | :35:19. | |
countries outside the EU compared to those inside. But if we had to rely | :35:20. | :35:25. | |
entirely on World Trade Organisation arrangements we certainly would not | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
get the kind of cover from those kind of arrangements that we get as | :35:30. | :35:34. | |
being part of the European Union. Most services in this country will | :35:35. | :35:40. | |
tell you, the single market has been resisted. It will happen. People | :35:41. | :35:46. | |
have been saying that for 30 years. You know very well that ever since | :35:47. | :35:49. | |
the establishment of the single market by the government of which | :35:50. | :35:55. | |
Nigel was a part, and it was a great stride forward, there have been | :35:56. | :36:00. | |
incremental improvements to extend the single market in services and | :36:01. | :36:04. | |
that is ongoing at this very moment. It will continue and it will be | :36:05. | :36:09. | |
achieved. One way it will not be achieved, of course, is if the | :36:10. | :36:12. | |
United Kingdom is not there to argue for it. For we finish, can David | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
Cameron survive as Prime Minister if the UK votes to leave? I hope the UK | :36:18. | :36:24. | |
will vote to leave, and when that happens I think it is important that | :36:25. | :36:27. | |
David Cameron remains Prime Minister, I would like a period of | :36:28. | :36:31. | |
stability and calm. We should have a period of discussion about how we | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
approach the renegotiation. Two years in which to renegotiate, I | :36:37. | :36:41. | |
thought you would be arguing that the last thing you would want is | :36:42. | :36:47. | |
huge uproar and upheaval when they are fighting for our country's life. | :36:48. | :36:53. | |
Does Nigel Lawson agree? Should he and can he remain? It is his | :36:54. | :36:56. | |
responsibility after a vote which I hope will come to leave the European | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
Union, it is his responsibility to implement the will of the British | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
people. Is it realistic for him to stay? Perfectly realistic. What | :37:05. | :37:10. | |
about Jeremy Corbyn, do you think he is as enthusiastic about remaining | :37:11. | :37:14. | |
as you are? He has made a strong commitment and he has made that very | :37:15. | :37:18. | |
evident. Whether he has got the detailed engagement that I have been | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
fortunate enough to have I do not know. But I do know that in terms of | :37:23. | :37:25. | |
principles, opportunities, safeguarding the future of the | :37:26. | :37:29. | |
British people, he is very favourable. Would you like to see | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
him campaign a bit more visibly? He's got a certain preoccupation | :37:35. | :37:38. | |
with the current elections. I anticipate that after those | :37:39. | :37:41. | |
elections he and his colleagues will be fully engaged in arguing for a | :37:42. | :37:47. | |
Remain vote. Gentleman, you are fully engaged in arguing for both | :37:48. | :37:51. | |
sides of this argument. Now to Scotland. | :37:52. | :37:54. | |
On Saturday, Nicola Sturgeon told the SNP spring conference that | :37:55. | :37:56. | |
if her party was returned to government in May, | :37:57. | :37:58. | |
the party would begin to build a new case for Scottish independence | :37:59. | :38:01. | |
Here's the First Minister, telling conference about her | :38:02. | :38:04. | |
"beautiful dream" of an independent Scotland. | :38:05. | :38:09. | |
Our dream is for Scotland to become independent, | :38:10. | :38:13. | |
to be in the driving seat of our own destiny, | :38:14. | :38:16. | |
to shape our own future, and on the basis of | :38:17. | :38:20. | |
equality, with our family across the British Isles | :38:21. | :38:23. | |
and our friends across the globe, to play our part in building | :38:24. | :38:26. | |
That is a beautiful dream and we believe in it. | :38:27. | :38:34. | |
Can any of the Unionist parties stop her in pursuing that beautiful | :38:35. | :38:48. | |
dream? And the Scottish Liberal Democrat | :38:49. | :38:49. | |
Leader, Willie Rennie, The Liberal Democrats are heading | :38:50. | :38:58. | |
for almost total wipe-out in Scotland. Could the Scottish Liberal | :38:59. | :39:02. | |
Democrats become extinct? This is dismal tour, we have a great chance | :39:03. | :39:08. | |
of growing. For two reasons. If you look at our team in Hollywood, we've | :39:09. | :39:12. | |
punched well above our weight in holding the SNP to account on the | :39:13. | :39:18. | |
police, investigating in colleges. Also the second thing, we've got a | :39:19. | :39:21. | |
big, bold package for this election. We are standing up for an investment | :39:22. | :39:27. | |
of a penny on income tax for education. Like Labour? Actually | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
yes, like Labour, but we are proposing it for education, to have | :39:33. | :39:37. | |
a transformational effect of ?475 million for a pupil premium for | :39:38. | :39:41. | |
nursery education but also for our colleges. It is different from | :39:42. | :39:44. | |
Labour but it is bold and I think it is progressive. It may be bold, but | :39:45. | :39:50. | |
to anybody listening, policy suggestions might be eye-catching | :39:51. | :39:53. | |
but where is the evidence people are listening to you to deliver it? The | :39:54. | :39:58. | |
latest polls in February, Liberal Democrats polling four to 6%. We | :39:59. | :40:02. | |
know the polls are not always correct but even so, where is your | :40:03. | :40:09. | |
evidence? In different parts of Scotland our message is penetrating, | :40:10. | :40:15. | |
and we can see it. How can you see it? Will it turn into seats? Yes, I | :40:16. | :40:19. | |
believe we are going to go this time. How many? It would be wrong | :40:20. | :40:23. | |
for me to start predicting. You sound very confident? I am, because | :40:24. | :40:29. | |
we have a bold package and a team that punches above its weight. If | :40:30. | :40:34. | |
you think it is a good idea to have the Scottish parliament dominated by | :40:35. | :40:37. | |
the Scottish National party, you only have to look at some of the | :40:38. | :40:40. | |
mistakes they've made in the last few years to realise that is not a | :40:41. | :40:44. | |
good thing. We need diversity, a strong voice for liberal values that | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
I stand up for. Would you ever consider joining any of the other | :40:49. | :40:51. | |
parties in the Scottish parliament? If you are worried about the | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
dominance of the SNP, and that shows no signs of abating, why not join | :40:57. | :41:00. | |
another party? Because I am a Liberal Democrat. You could join | :41:01. | :41:05. | |
forces. We work together on a variety of things. We worked | :41:06. | :41:08. | |
together on the referendum, on budget. And you share this policy | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
with Scottish Labour, who are also struggling, this idea of a penny on | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
income tax. Wouldn't it be worthwhile in your bid to stop the | :41:17. | :41:21. | |
rise of the SNP to join forces? The best way to get the most votes in | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
the election is to be clear, distinct, and campaigned vigorously | :41:26. | :41:28. | |
in the part of the country that you've got a great chance of | :41:29. | :41:31. | |
winning, and that's exactly what we are doing. I'm not interesting in | :41:32. | :41:38. | |
pre-election pact is, that's for other people to talk about. I am | :41:39. | :41:40. | |
interested in making progress in this election. I think we have | :41:41. | :41:44. | |
turned the corner. We had a difficult five years. But this time | :41:45. | :41:48. | |
round with a bold package and a great team we have a great chance of | :41:49. | :41:52. | |
progressing. So nobody has talked to you about joining forces on | :41:53. | :41:55. | |
anything. What about if the Conservatives leapfrog labour? Ruth | :41:56. | :41:59. | |
Davidson was putting that forward, cosy at a bail denied it would ever | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
happen. Again, would you do a deal with the Conservatives? Is that a | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
dismal prospect? Dismal prospect of having the Conservatives who talk | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
about the SNP all the time, the SNP who talk about the Conservatives all | :42:14. | :42:17. | |
the time, feeding off each other. One determined in part to break up | :42:18. | :42:21. | |
the European Union, the other determined to break up the United | :42:22. | :42:24. | |
Kingdom. We need parties that stand up for progressive politics and | :42:25. | :42:29. | |
keeping our country together. If the EU referendum delivers a Leave vote | :42:30. | :42:33. | |
in June, is there a scenario where the Scottish Liberal Democrats would | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
support the idea of a second Scottish independence referendum? I | :42:38. | :42:41. | |
want to stop all this, and that is the danger in the Conservatives just | :42:42. | :42:44. | |
now with their divisions on Europe, they are really risking another | :42:45. | :42:48. | |
independence referendum. We could end up using the two great unions of | :42:49. | :42:52. | |
the United Kingdom, partly because the Conservatives are so divided on | :42:53. | :42:56. | |
the issue, as we heard from Nicola Sturgeon in the clip, she is | :42:57. | :42:59. | |
determined to have another independence referendum. We should | :43:00. | :43:02. | |
be moving on for the next five years to talk about the big issues that | :43:03. | :43:07. | |
face this country. It is about protecting the environment, | :43:08. | :43:09. | |
investing in education, keeping what's best in our NHS, but also | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
guaranteeing Civil Liberties. That's the focus for the next five years, | :43:15. | :43:18. | |
not all this constitutional forever Meisel gave think that those two | :43:19. | :43:22. | |
parties are determined to do. -- nasal gazing. | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
Now, time to have a look at some of the stories coming up | :43:27. | :43:29. | |
On Tuesday, the Leave and Remain campaigns with be marking 100 days | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
until polling day in the EU referendum, | :43:34. | :43:35. | |
Also on Tuesday, the Northern Powerhouse will be in the spotlight | :43:36. | :43:38. | |
when Lord Adonis releases the final report of his | :43:39. | :43:41. | |
National Infrastructure Commission ahead of the Budget. | :43:42. | :43:44. | |
That's on Wednesday, when George Osborne when he says | :43:45. | :43:46. | |
equivalent to 50p in every ?100 of Government spending. | :43:47. | :43:53. | |
We'll have live coverage here on BBC2, of course. | :43:54. | :43:57. | |
On Thursday, David Cameron will be meeting with other EU leaders | :43:58. | :44:02. | |
in Brussels, where they are supposed to be finalising the deal | :44:03. | :44:05. | |
We're joined now by Tom Newton Dunn from the Sun and The Guardian's | :44:06. | :44:10. | |
Tom, let's start with your story about the Queen backing Brexit, was | :44:11. | :44:25. | |
Michael Gove your source? Nice try. We never talk about our sources. At | :44:26. | :44:29. | |
least I was open and transparent about it. He shut it down. So where | :44:30. | :44:39. | |
does it go from here? Buckingham Palace has launched a formal | :44:40. | :44:42. | |
complaint with the press watchdog and yet there are still stories that | :44:43. | :44:48. | |
she was upset because of a so-called sermon and Nick Clegg, what say you? | :44:49. | :44:52. | |
We say we standing by this, defending the complaint vigorously. | :44:53. | :44:56. | |
We expect that want to be interesting as it plays out. I | :44:57. | :44:59. | |
cannot tell you exactly what the Palace have complained about because | :45:00. | :45:02. | |
it is confidential but it will be interesting when that emerges | :45:03. | :45:06. | |
itself. We are taking the story on a little bit in our paper and have | :45:07. | :45:09. | |
another account of the quite extraordinary exchange to win the | :45:10. | :45:13. | |
Queen, Nick Clegg in Windsor Castle a few years ago. This time from a | :45:14. | :45:17. | |
royal courtiers saying it was Nick Clegg that started the debate by | :45:18. | :45:22. | |
giving the Queen sermon, and the Queen responded reasonably | :45:23. | :45:25. | |
witheringly, so the story goes on. Of course there is the urgent | :45:26. | :45:30. | |
question tabled by Tom Watson in the House of Commons just now, as we | :45:31. | :45:33. | |
just discovered, about the Privy Council and various different | :45:34. | :45:36. | |
infringements he believes have happened in it. So it will roll on | :45:37. | :45:38. | |
and on. At least you know that one of the | :45:39. | :45:47. | |
prime views of this show is the Queen so on Georges caught | :45:48. | :45:51. | |
everything you just that. Could the budget be rather boring? Certainly, | :45:52. | :45:54. | |
people have not been very interested so far, largely because, as you know | :45:55. | :45:58. | |
we're right in the middle of the election and lots of the good | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
stories, of course, Tom with the one around the Queen and we're looking | :46:03. | :46:04. | |
forward to that confidential complaint, when the sun breaks it in | :46:05. | :46:13. | |
the future! Do you? LAUGHTER I do think it is an important moment | :46:14. | :46:17. | |
the George Osborne. He still has his eyes on the Tory crown and he will | :46:18. | :46:21. | |
want to make a real statement on Wednesday, despite the fact he has | :46:22. | :46:24. | |
been getting us ready for the fact there could be spending cuts, | :46:25. | :46:28. | |
further spending cuts to come because of this ?4 billion of extra | :46:29. | :46:32. | |
savings that they need to find. The thing he has been talking about is | :46:33. | :46:35. | |
his manifesto promises to the British people. Really, he's going | :46:36. | :46:40. | |
to want to make progress on that raising of the upper threshold, the | :46:41. | :46:45. | |
raising of the personal allowance. I believe he is a political Chancellor | :46:46. | :46:48. | |
and Isis Becky will want to pull out a rabbit of the hat. I'm sure he | :46:49. | :46:52. | |
will and you are right but the problem is, he does not have much | :46:53. | :46:55. | |
room for manoeuvre because of his own rules and wanting to get a | :46:56. | :47:00. | |
surplus. Do you think he's beginning to regret that? He's written an | :47:01. | :47:04. | |
awful lot of checks at the last general election in the Conservative | :47:05. | :47:07. | |
Party manifesto, some of which we just heard about. Even in the good | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
times, it was going to be hard to catch the Czechs, tax cuts for low | :47:12. | :47:14. | |
income and higher income earners across the board. Now the times are | :47:15. | :47:18. | |
even tighter, he's an even more physical trouble. Chancellors always | :47:19. | :47:22. | |
find money from somewhere when they need it, that's the rule of all | :47:23. | :47:26. | |
budgets but this one has a second dynamic which is the EU referendum | :47:27. | :47:29. | |
which is pervading everything we say and do, tragically, down here. His | :47:30. | :47:33. | |
issue is, he would love to do something bold, the first budget of | :47:34. | :47:38. | |
a new parliament, the time to really cause trouble and dig in but he | :47:39. | :47:41. | |
can't because the Tory MPs almost certainly won't back him if it's | :47:42. | :47:45. | |
controversial. Also desperate to try to prove that the party is still | :47:46. | :47:48. | |
working, the government is still united and they can still do | :47:49. | :47:51. | |
interesting things but I think when it comes to it, he's going to on the | :47:52. | :47:55. | |
side of caution and it will probably be most boring budget we have seen | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
in a long time. -- he's going to go on the side of caution. Now I'm | :48:00. | :48:04. | |
disappointed. Taking that into account, only ?4 billion worth of | :48:05. | :48:09. | |
cuts, it may be tempting to raise fuel duty and it may be tempting to | :48:10. | :48:13. | |
do something, as Tom alluded to, to throw some red meat to the Tory | :48:14. | :48:18. | |
grassroots. That he's already been warned against taxing businesses | :48:19. | :48:21. | |
further. Is it going to be mainly from welfare? I think the difficulty | :48:22. | :48:27. | |
for him is where he finds the money. He's already backed off pension | :48:28. | :48:31. | |
reforms because of Tory backbenchers. As you say, fuel duty, | :48:32. | :48:35. | |
there were hints he might increase it by RPI but there are something | :48:36. | :48:39. | |
like 160 backbenchers who will try to stop him from doing that, | :48:40. | :48:43. | |
including a lot on his own backbenchers. One thing we already | :48:44. | :48:47. | |
know is going to happen is the ?1.2 billion saving from reforms to | :48:48. | :48:50. | |
disability benefits and I suspect that's an area where we will see a | :48:51. | :48:54. | |
big push back from Labour and charities tomorrow, these reforms to | :48:55. | :48:58. | |
the personal independence payment. Anywhere else that he tries to save | :48:59. | :49:03. | |
money on something Labour will rake over. We can expect a lot of stealth | :49:04. | :49:08. | |
taxes, like increases in insurance premiums, that are already going to | :49:09. | :49:11. | |
annoy motorists so maybe he won't want to go further with fuel duty as | :49:12. | :49:15. | |
well. Thank you for joining us. Enjoy it, anyway, even if it is not | :49:16. | :49:17. | |
as exciting as you hoped. Now, are your ready | :49:18. | :49:20. | |
for BoJo versus Obama? Boris Johnson has criticised | :49:21. | :49:22. | |
Barack Obama, following reports that he is preparing to come | :49:23. | :49:24. | |
to the UK to tell us to stay in the the EU, calling it | :49:25. | :49:27. | |
"a piece of outrageous Now that would be a head-to-head | :49:28. | :49:30. | |
debate worth watching! As he was born in the US, | :49:31. | :49:38. | |
Boris is one of the few UK politicians | :49:39. | :49:41. | |
eligible to become President. for a documentary that | :49:42. | :49:45. | |
goes out tonight, I asked him about his | :49:46. | :49:50. | |
ambitions closer to home. How has it changed, | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
your relationship with the Prime Minister, since you decided | :49:55. | :49:57. | |
to campaign for Leave? You know, you have got | :49:58. | :49:59. | |
to understand that my relationships and friendships | :50:00. | :50:01. | |
with government go back They are pretty much invulnerable. | :50:02. | :50:02. | |
Are they? Yes, to any short-term, | :50:03. | :50:09. | |
you know, disagreements So you are still friends? | :50:10. | :50:11. | |
Yes, of course. You once said, which is true, | :50:12. | :50:14. | |
that you had a greater chance of being reincarnated as an olive... | :50:15. | :50:22. | |
Yes. You remember, than | :50:23. | :50:24. | |
you did about being Or a baked bean, or decapitated | :50:25. | :50:25. | |
by Frisbee or locked But actually, looking at it now, | :50:26. | :50:29. | |
there's no one more likely to be Honestly, David Cameron | :50:30. | :50:35. | |
is doing a great job, everyone knows that and there's | :50:36. | :50:39. | |
a long way to go before And we're joined now | :50:40. | :50:41. | |
by Boris Johnson's biogapher, Welcome to the show. Opposing David | :50:42. | :50:53. | |
Cameron is one thing but do you think Boris has bitten off more than | :50:54. | :50:57. | |
he can chew in having a go at Barack Obama? Orange Mokoka he's had a go | :50:58. | :51:00. | |
at him before about parking fines, which the American Embassy in London | :51:01. | :51:04. | |
refuses to pay. It is one of his best columns, actually, I think. It | :51:05. | :51:08. | |
is a point which will have struck almost anyone who has been to | :51:09. | :51:09. | |
America that they have a very strong almost anyone who has been to | :51:10. | :51:13. | |
sense of nationhood and you can't do anything which infringes American | :51:14. | :51:23. | |
sovereignty and yet, here they are, advising us to join the European | :51:24. | :51:25. | |
Union. It's a completely contradictory position and Boris and | :51:26. | :51:28. | |
many of us has bolted but he put it very trenchantly today. His speech | :51:29. | :51:31. | |
on Brexit last week could only be described, I suppose as vintage | :51:32. | :51:33. | |
Boris but is it the right approach to winning, first the referendum | :51:34. | :51:37. | |
campaign and then that really do ship? I think he's a bit like the | :51:38. | :51:41. | |
British Army, whenever we get in a war, we usually have several | :51:42. | :51:44. | |
catastrophes before we get the hang of it. He's starting to get the hang | :51:45. | :51:48. | |
of it, I think but he was in a mess to begin with because his initial | :51:49. | :51:51. | |
pitch was he would do a better deal than Cameron and that was not | :51:52. | :51:55. | |
sufficient differentiation. It certainly did not involve a | :51:56. | :51:57. | |
trenchant defence of national sovereignty which many Tory | :51:58. | :52:02. | |
Eurosceptics would think was at the heart of the argument. Do you think | :52:03. | :52:07. | |
everything Boris does is seen through the prism of becoming Prime | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
Minister? No, I think he also wants to amuse us. I would say most MPs, I | :52:12. | :52:19. | |
don't know about present company but most MPs, the thought has | :52:20. | :52:22. | |
occasionally crossed their minds, I think that they might and certainly, | :52:23. | :52:25. | |
some of the most implausible candidates have stood for the | :52:26. | :52:28. | |
leadership of both the Labour and Conservative Party in the past so I | :52:29. | :52:31. | |
don't think you can hold it against Boris but he thinks about it as | :52:32. | :52:35. | |
well. Sometimes implausible candidates win! Who are you thinking | :52:36. | :52:40. | |
of? Are you running for the leadership? You will be the | :52:41. | :52:46. | |
returning officer! That's not very ambitious. You could do better. It | :52:47. | :52:54. | |
would sue John Mantle. But you say he had this motivation to amuse us. | :52:55. | :52:59. | |
Would the public view him as an amusing mayor of London but | :53:00. | :53:03. | |
certainly not someone they could consider as Prime Minister? Identity | :53:04. | :53:07. | |
no because both as a journalist and a politician, he is extremely agile | :53:08. | :53:11. | |
and that can be dismissed as opportunism and it can also be | :53:12. | :53:14. | |
regarded as a kind of enlightened pragmatism, because when the story | :53:15. | :53:18. | |
changes he changes his view. It depends what the want. But if the | :53:19. | :53:24. | |
millions of undecided voters need reassurance at the moment, then | :53:25. | :53:28. | |
Boris jumping about all over the place may not provide it. Was it | :53:29. | :53:33. | |
risky, his decision? You know many people have accused him of not being | :53:34. | :53:37. | |
authentic, that he was somebody who really was an instinctive inner. Do | :53:38. | :53:43. | |
you believe that? It was risky but it was an unenviable choice. Either | :53:44. | :53:48. | |
he became a loyal member of the Cameron - Osborne machine... But if | :53:49. | :53:51. | |
that is what he believes, people say you should support what you believe | :53:52. | :53:56. | |
rather than just be pragmatic? He believes he would be a lot better | :53:57. | :54:00. | |
than George Osborne and indie David Cameron. He's a lot brighter and | :54:01. | :54:03. | |
prepared to take the necessary risks, to drive a hard deal in | :54:04. | :54:08. | |
Brussels. But will he get on the ballot paper? If that was the cow | :54:09. | :54:10. | |
collision that he needed to guarantee being on the ballot, to | :54:11. | :54:14. | |
differentiate himself between him and George Osborne before he went to | :54:15. | :54:19. | |
the grassroots, do you think you will end up...? Identity no because | :54:20. | :54:22. | |
the frontrunner has not won this race since 1955 when Anthony Eden | :54:23. | :54:26. | |
succeeded Churchill so it's very unpredictable. If in the next few | :54:27. | :54:30. | |
months, he confirms his position as the darling of many Tory activists, | :54:31. | :54:34. | |
then many Tory MPs will be bitterly criticised if they don't make him | :54:35. | :54:38. | |
one of the last two. Is Simon Heffer right when he says only a handful of | :54:39. | :54:41. | |
MPs will support Boris before we get to the grassroots? I'm going to be | :54:42. | :54:49. | |
very boring... Don't be boring! I am applying to be the returning officer | :54:50. | :54:53. | |
so I don't think I should say. You have thought about this before you | :54:54. | :55:00. | |
came on. I'm disappointed in you. Are there only a few MPs who would | :55:01. | :55:04. | |
support Boris? I'm not even asking you, of your colleagues, would only | :55:05. | :55:09. | |
a few of them support? I've no idea, it is entirely up to my colleagues. | :55:10. | :55:14. | |
You must've had those conversations, surely. I have lots of private | :55:15. | :55:19. | |
conversations. And the word Private is instructive. Does Boris on the | :55:20. | :55:23. | |
mentally believe in anything? Yes, lots of things, I would say. -- | :55:24. | :55:29. | |
fundamentally believe. He's a merry England Conservative, let people | :55:30. | :55:32. | |
enjoy themselves, he's completely uncensored aura is and he could not | :55:33. | :55:35. | |
stand up for some thing like marriage. -- an censorious. He wants | :55:36. | :55:42. | |
the genius of the induce people to be expressed in whatever way John | :55:43. | :55:47. | |
Bull happens to think is a good idea at the time. Caroline Flint, do you | :55:48. | :55:52. | |
find him using? On occasion and I have to say, some people like to | :55:53. | :55:56. | |
portray Boris Johnson as some kind of buffoon. I've never | :55:57. | :56:00. | |
underestimated him. I don't know him personally but I've always thought, | :56:01. | :56:03. | |
the way in which he goes on zip wires and what have you is part of, | :56:04. | :56:09. | |
I think, quite calculated, in some respects, it's part of his | :56:10. | :56:11. | |
personality but it is also to deflect sometimes from other things | :56:12. | :56:14. | |
that I think a more serious. It's interesting he's having a go at | :56:15. | :56:18. | |
America and Barack Obama on the fact that they would say, we find it | :56:19. | :56:22. | |
easier to deal with a block than different countries. When the people | :56:23. | :56:27. | |
who want to leave the European Union wanted, they use America as an | :56:28. | :56:29. | |
example of why we should leave and then we don't -- they don't like it | :56:30. | :56:33. | |
when the American president says he likes working with the EU. I think | :56:34. | :56:36. | |
it's a bit rich. Thank you for joining us. | :56:37. | :56:38. | |
And viewers in London can watch the documentary, | :56:39. | :56:40. | |
Boris: The London Years, on BBC One at 7:30pm. | :56:41. | :56:42. | |
There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz. | :56:43. | :56:46. | |
The question was, who or what did George Osborne ask to "keep it down" | :56:47. | :56:50. | |
while he was writing his Budget in the House of Commons yesterday? | :56:51. | :56:53. | |
Was it A - noisy protesters, B - squeaky House of Commons mice | :56:54. | :56:56. | |
or D - Top Gear, who were filming outside? | :56:57. | :57:00. | |
So Caroline and Graham, what's the correct answer? | :57:01. | :57:02. | |
Matt LeBlanc, doing Top Gear outside. I think we can show you | :57:03. | :57:10. | |
some footage, or maybe only the picture of the team. What do you | :57:11. | :57:16. | |
think? No, here it is. Do you think it was inappropriate to film by the | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
Senate after over the weekend -- by the Cenotaph. It looks a bit close | :57:22. | :57:26. | |
for comfort. I've not seen this before. You would have said no? I | :57:27. | :57:31. | |
think there should be an exclusion zone. The defence that was put out | :57:32. | :57:36. | |
earlier was that it was a long lens and it was not near Cenotaph but | :57:37. | :57:39. | |
unless it was a really long lens, it looked quite close. Had you seen it | :57:40. | :57:45. | |
before? I saw the photographs but it looks very close to the Cenotaph, | :57:46. | :57:49. | |
even closer than the better grass suggested. Presenter Chris Evans has | :57:50. | :57:53. | |
said the footage will not be used following the complaints. Are you a | :57:54. | :57:59. | |
fan of the programme anyway, Graham? Yes, I think it is usually fun. It | :58:00. | :58:02. | |
is good that they push the boundaries but maybe sometimes they | :58:03. | :58:06. | |
push them a bit too far. You are not a returning officer on this or you | :58:07. | :58:11. | |
can safely say. What about you? I don't really watch it but hearing | :58:12. | :58:18. | |
Jeremy Clarkson said we should stay European Union, how interesting is | :58:19. | :58:24. | |
that? You brought it back to that! So Europe larks and fan? His family | :58:25. | :58:29. | |
are from near my constituency. I've not seen him in my constituency in a | :58:30. | :58:33. | |
genius but there you go. I bet you never thought that would be so | :58:34. | :58:34. | |
fascinating. That's all for today. | :58:35. | :58:36. | |
Thanks to our guests. The one o'clock news is starting | :58:37. | :58:38. | |
over on BBC One now. I'll be here at noon tomorrow | :58:39. | :58:41. | |
with all the big political stories And we will no doubt be talking | :58:42. | :58:44. | |
about the EU and the budget. Do join me then. | :58:45. | :58:52. | |
Goodbye. | :58:53. | :58:54. |